Asking the Right Questions Will Change Everything About How You Lead

What does Renaissance-era innovation have to do with modern leadership? Everything, according to global keynote speaker and executive coach Jean-Marie DiGiovanna. Drawing from her remarkable journey scaling a tech start-up from 90 to 4,000 employees and navigating cultural nuances across continents, Jean-Marie reveals how traditional command-and-control leadership is failing today's organizations.

At the heart of this conversation is a profound insight: we're experiencing a rebirth of leadership. Just as the historical Renaissance followed the Black Plague with an explosion of art, science, and human potential, our post-COVID world demands a leadership approach that honours humanity, fosters psychological safety, and unleashes innovation. Jean-Marie expertly unpacks the five principles of Renaissance Leadership that can transform any organization: asking new questions, honouring diversity, connecting to innovate, magnifying value, and acting with accountability.

The discussion delves into practical challenges facing today's leaders—from scaling culture during rapid growth to adapting leadership styles across different cultural contexts. Jean-Marie shares powerful strategies for building accountability without micromanagement, recognizing team members in ways that resonate with their individual preferences, and creating environments where people bring their full selves to work. Her three simple questions that transform accountability represent a game-changing approach any leader can implement immediately.

Whether you're leading a start-up, managing teams across cultural divides, or simply seeking to evolve your leadership approach for our changing world, this conversation offers rare insight from someone who has mastered both the technical and human dimensions of organizational excellence. Discover why curiosity might be your most powerful leadership tool and how asking different questions can lead to breakthrough innovations your teams are waiting to deliver.

Ready to transform your leadership? Visit JeanMarieSpeaks.com to learn more about bringing these Renaissance principles to your organization.

Chapters

• 0:32 Meet Jean-Marie and Her Mission
• 10:05 Building Culture in Fast-Growing Organizations
• 21:35 The Journey from Tech to Leadership
• 39:35 Cultural Differences and Global Leadership
• 57:26 Entrepreneurial Pivots and Career Evolution
• 1:12:37 The Five Principles of Renaissance Leadership
• 1:43:25 Cultivating Accountability and Human-Centered Leadership
• 1:56:52 The Book: Questions for Transforming Leadership
• 2:08:01 Final Thoughts and Contact Information

Transcript

Speaker 2: 0:32

Jean-Marie, welcome and thank you for taking the time to join us in the studio today.

Speaker 3: 0:40

My pleasure.

Speaker 2: 0:40

How are you feeling after a week of sauna pull and all the amazing conversations you've been having?

Speaker 3: 0:47

Yeah, it's been wonderful, really fruitful and amazing.

Speaker 2: 0:51

Nice. So when did you arrive?

Speaker 3: 0:53

I arrived last Friday, so just over a week ago, okay, and it's been a very busy and exciting week.

Speaker 2: 1:02

Nice, nice, nice. You want to pull that mic a little bit closer to you? Sure, okay, a little bit more. Yeah, like one fist away, okay, okay. And I mean, who is Jean Marie and what brings her to Singapore?

Speaker 3: 1:16

Yes, so I am a keynote speaker, global keynote speaker and executive coach. I run development programs for leaders across the world in corporate and I have been coming to Southeast Asia now in the last few years and now really building a base here as well, because one of my intentions is to bring my work all around the world and impact as many people and leaders as possible.

Speaker 2: 1:46

I was watching some of your content just to obviously learn a bit more about you, and this week we just held a woman empowerment event at our main stage area the day before yesterday, and one of the women who activated this delegation from South Africa. It's about helping women fix each other's crowns, and the reason I bring it up is I love that because you're from you mentioned Colorado, right and I love that you're coming to Asia, which is still quite, I think, traditional, okay, and I've picked up some interesting nuances in how the Asian cultures vary across Southeast Asia, asia at large, across, you know, southeast Asia, asia at large, when it comes to men and leadership and also questioning of leadership or even going in to be able to train on leadership. So I love, as a woman, you coming across here and breaking into Asia. I'm quite keen to hear your thoughts and your experiences. What has it been like in that regard? What?

Speaker 3: 3:02

has it been like in that regard? Yes, it's been fascinating and also a great experience for myself in learning. I have worked overseas, mainly in Europe when I was in corporate, and then I obviously have worked across many cultures since having my business. One of the things I've noticed or that's very prevalent in more, of course, asian cultures is the level with which people speak up, disagree, give feedback and also who's in the. You know based on who's in the room, and a lot of that is cultural.

Speaker 3: 3:48

And so that, I think, is fascinating for me, because when I go into organizations, a lot of the leaders I'm talking to in Southeast Asia and that's where I mainly have been have said I've let people know they can speak up but they're still not speaking up, and that's something that is cultural as well, and so part of the work that I do is helping to break down cultural barriers, which adds a whole dimension to the work that I do.

Speaker 2: 4:21

Yeah, yeah, it's definitely a thing that I do.

Speaker 2: 4:23

Yeah, yeah, it's definitely a thing you know, I would say, even as myself I stand out because I mean I wouldn't say I've always been outspoken, but I do tend to share my thoughts and I've noticed that that is a rarity when it comes to being in a boardroom with senior leadership in, and I've had some hairy situations and I think some people have looked in shock when I've actually stepped up and met the situation openly and actually had a dialogue and I think it's actually gained respect more than the opposite.

Speaker 2: 5:05

So it is an interesting situation that exists and I think, quite you know, while we're on the topic, there's a story, an infamous story, about, I think it was a South Korean flight, and I'm going to completely butcher the story, but the principle of it was they've also got quite a strong hierarchy system when it comes to leadership and what you can or can't say and whether or not you can even say anything. And there was a situation with a specific flight where they were picking up that something was fundamentally wrong, but they were too scared to talk to the captain about it and it ended up resulting in the plane actually crashing it and it ended up resulting in the plane actually crashing, and there's a term for it which I can't remember within their culture when it comes to, you know, respecting your leaders and not being able to talk to it, but it highlighted quite an interesting point, right?

Speaker 3: 5:53

Oh yeah, in fact what you're pointing to is much of the work I do around psychological safety, and part of that is cultural too, because when you look at psychological safety and that's been really big in the last several years since COVID, especially in the States it's now becoming a lot more discussed and addressed in all parts of the world. But there's really two sides of the coin when you think of psychological safety. There's creating an environment that allows for people to speak up and let it be okay. Then there's the emotional intelligence and the cultural aspects of whether even people speak up themselves, even if they're in a safe environment. So you have to have both for psychological safety to work and that's a prime example of that, of the cultural aspect and also kind of the norms of the organization getting in the way of you know major tragedy, of you know major tragedy.

Speaker 2: 7:10

So it is an important aspect and has been really coming up in the last several years a lot more, okay, interesting. If you don't mind, I'm going to rewind and just probe a little bit about your journey leading up to the work that you do, because it's really powerful work. And if I look at the world today, I think leadership is lacking. That's my humble opinion, personal opinion. Uh, I think that there's a void of leadership at a political level, okay, and it's quite hair-raising because I believe most of humanity just wants to live in peace and wants to engage with different cultures, and it's a great time to be alive because we've got a lot of benefits that are unfolding.

Speaker 2: 7:55

But you can also see at the same time that, for me at least, it feels like there's a void of leadership, not only at a political level and you can see the dire consequences that come from that but at an organizational level as well, and it's, I think, never been more important to have a strong leadership. And when I refer to leadership, it's not even just at the ivory tower c-suite level, right, I think, it's at every level, even within each individual with respect to their own lives. So I'm quite keen to understand, and I want to rewind and understand your journey to get to this point where you're actually going out and I love the topic, by the way the renaissance of leadership. So I want to just rewind, see your trajectory and arc of getting to this point and then dive into some of the work that you do.

Speaker 3: 8:48

Sure, so I started out actually in a technical background, so you know nothing having to do with working much with people. It was more with technology, and that was because when I was young, I was very good at math, I enjoyed science and I was really poor in English, and so it was very clear what my trajectory was in terms of going to college and at the time and this is in the US, right yeah?

Speaker 3: 9:18

this was in the US and at the time when I was graduating, computer science was still pretty new and it was a very hot topic and my father gave me such good advice at different parts of my life and that was one piece and he said you know, by the time you graduate, this is going to be a very hot field and I mean this is the Steve Jobs era, when he's like breaking new ground?

Speaker 3: 9:44

Yes, and, and so it was exciting, I did get through it. I mean, this is the Steve Jobs era, when he's like breaking new ground right at an IT consulting firm. That split off a year later and we started our own company as doing IT consulting, and it was very leading edge because we were actually doing fixed time, fixed price projects and also working on client server and connecting systems that weren't able to be connected before. So I was one of the 90 founders of that organization. We were right next to MIT in Cambridge and kind of fast forward.

Speaker 3: 10:32

Nine years later we were 4,000 worldwide and we went public, and so I ended up learning from incredibly brilliant colleagues, leaders, and, as a result, moved through that company and discovered my passion for training, and so, you know, an opportunity came up. First of all, I had moved up the corporate ladder as high as I could in the tech field, so I was a senior technical architect and basically as a consultant to many projects, and I looked around our staff meeting of, you know, five guys and me, and I thought I have never read Byte magazine. These guys are excited about this stuff. I am definitely in the wrong field, and so that's when I had an opportunity to step out and create the methodology for what we were doing and start training project teams, and we were growing, so said we need to create our core values, guiding principles, core competencies, all of the work that organizations need to do, and we did it internally and so I was on that team and it was pretty much like studying organizational development very quickly Practical real life.

Speaker 3: 12:02

Practical real life. And to this day, well, the company doesn't exist anymore. It was bought out by Novell. But those core values sustained and I created the core curriculum for business problem solving for consultants, and then we were growing so fast I ended up becoming the lead trainer, training over 100 employees a month and thinking that was normal to do on your own, because I didn't know you could co-facilitate.

Speaker 3: 12:35

And so people say and the company I worked with was Cambridge Technology Partners, and often when people hear of that we always say it was like dog years. You know you could work there for two years. It's like working somewhere else for six years. And so that's where I got so much of my experience. It was on the job. It was helping open up new offices in Europe and working with clients all over from South America to North America and Europe.

Speaker 3: 13:06

And then also because of that and the work I did outside of my work, so I also had a deep passion for my own growth and development, and so when I felt stuck in my own life, I would seek out a coach, I would seek out growth and development programs, and I ended up going to several and seeing these amazing facilitators and seeing what they were doing, and so I would model what they were doing and brought that into the corporate world and it worked. And then I hired my first coach in the 90s and coaching wasn't really even on the map and as soon as I started working with her I realized this is what I want to do. I want to do coaching, but I wanted to do it in a much bigger you know, almost like live coaching, with groups and speaking and all that. But I was in my 20s at the time. I got to live life.

Speaker 2: 14:16

I can't be a life coach yet, so that's kind of how my journey started. Point the dog years you know you get the blessing I call it blessings right. So a lot of people might not see it the same way, but I think if you get to be at the forefront of an emerging technology and you're in the right company at the right time, it's just an amazing experience. It's like it tests you at every level. Number one, number two it is like dog years. The experience that you gain in not only seeing this technology scale but having to help scale it in a way that ensures success, gives you learnings.

Speaker 2: 14:51

And I've had a similar type of experience in my working career and I completely empathize on setting up a training division because we had it where we scaled not to your scale, but it went from like 30 to 100, from 100 to your scale, but it went from like 30 to 100, from 100 to 350 globally.

Speaker 2: 15:06

And then training supporting teams through a telco that had bought the company and we had to set up a training division because we realized we lost our identity and our culture completely evaporated in that growth spurt and we had to set up a training and enablement program, not only to baseline everyone that was coming in to make sure that we're all singing from the same hymn sheet, but, more importantly, that we could pass those core philosophies and ways of working across to partners who needed to unlock the technology capabilities and be able to take this technology and use it, because we realized just giving them the technology wasn't working and it took us a year or two before we a partner program was not like activating properly. So we realized, hang on, there needs to be more hand-holding, co-creation, and and and walking this path together. So I'm really interested to zoom in on those learnings, um, and, and understand that that part of your, your journey, because you know I work a lot with startups and founders and businesses that are trying to scale and I think you've got real golden nuggets there.

Speaker 3: 16:07

Yeah, I mean what I will say is one of the things that was a big differentiator and was a risk for the organization, but I think it and it's actually a story in my book is one of the things that we do is we hired people for attitude and culture Less for their hard skills, more for their soft skills, knowing that if they had desire, ambition and they were eager to learn that, we could teach them everything else. So not everyone had a tech background. Many people had liberal arts backgrounds, but that, I think, is a brilliant model, because we didn't have there were probably of the thousands of people that work there, I can count less than one hand of people I actually didn't like to work with.

Speaker 2: 17:01

I want to pull at that thread a bit. How do you? Because that resonates with me and I agree. I've met people that are highly educated and will be the first to tell you that they've done the MBA, but they have the wrong attitude versus someone who isn't as educated but has the right attitude.

Speaker 2: 17:19

It's two different working experiences, two different working experiences. So how do you if you could help the listeners and the people watching this understand just on those two points? Because I think that's so key and it's also interesting for a tech company that you weren't focusing just on the technology side, because the knee-jerk reaction is make sure you've got the best technical resources, but they might not be a good cultural fit or have the right attitude. So how do you hire for those two dimensions?

Speaker 3: 17:45

cultural fit or have the right attitude. So how do you hire for those two dimensions? One of it, one way, is to ensure that. Well, first off, if we go back to even and that's funny, I just read an article about this how AI has taken over so much of even scanning resumes.

Speaker 3: 18:03

So if you really go back into looking at candidates. There's an issue right there because we are missing out, the systems are missing out on incredible talent, because it's not filtering even, it's not even giving us the people that could be those kinds of people in that category, because it's not looking for that, and so part of it is bringing the human aspect back in. You know there's there's a balance, it's like and looking for, it's like looking between the lines. You know. In fact, one of the things I remember reading was what, if you know, when people submit their resume, they also submit almost like in college. You know an essay or a couple of answers to some questions right Now. Of course, that could be generated through AI too.

Speaker 2: 18:59

So we don't know what's real or not. I've got a startup that's doing video resumes, which is interesting, but I want to talk.

Speaker 3: 19:16

I want to finish a train of thought and I'll loop back to that. And because we're not they're not sorry, they're not filtering through right now, you know they're getting the tech people and then they're finding that, you know, 80 to 90 percent are not coming through. And then what happens is the recruiters are saying there's not enough good talent out there and of course there's millions of people going oh my God, I'm so incredibly talented, why are they not seeing me?

Speaker 2: 19:43

How do you pick up? Because you know that interview process is quite interesting. If you think about it, everyone's CV and LinkedIn profile is like North Korean badges on a general's blazer there's a lot of fluff and a lot of posturing. So how do you sift through the noise number one to identify the right key markers? How do you? Also obviously everyone's going to seem enthusiastic, maybe, I mean someone doesn't. Then they could just maybe have the wrong or a specific personality type. I don't want to say wrong, but how do you identify attitude? What is that Attitude? What is that?

Speaker 3: 20:22

Yeah, so attitude can be extracted or learned from asking certain questions. Okay, and so when you have a dialogue with somebody, you can probably get a sense within the first 10 minutes what kind of attitude they have. Now, there's also specific questions that you could ask. Do?

Speaker 2: 20:47

you have an example of a period. Let me think of one.

Speaker 3: 20:50

Okay, but one might be. You know, think of the most challenging time you've had in your life. What was your first reaction? And then, how did you handle that? What was your attitude? Around that, you could even say like what was your attitude? How did you see that? Because often, you know, you'll find people who either see the glass half full or see the glass half empty, or they don't even see the glass. They're like, oh, there's so much more in the room, right, and so just from that answer you can get a sense. Oh, this is interesting.

Speaker 2: 21:26

Got it.

Speaker 3: 21:27

That makes sense so yeah, and also things that they've done outside of work. We don't go there enough. I'm not sure. Obviously, there's legal things probably that are important to honor in terms of the HR process. In terms of the HR process. But there's so many. To me it's all in the questions we ask that get to a different dialogue.

Speaker 2: 21:50

Agreed. There's something I'm picking up, because I've just been, of late, interviewing different people for different things, especially with the sub-30 age range. It's almost like a reverse interview. Right, it's like, okay, so they'll make themselves available for the interview, but then the questions will come back and you can hear and see they're making a calculated decision. Is this the right step for me from a career perspective? Is this going to give me the learnings I need and for me that inspires me?

Speaker 2: 22:25

then I'm like okay I'm on to the right person. Yeah, because they're not just jumping at the opportunity they send. But is this going to challenge me enough? You know, you see that like and you, it's something you even want to ask the some of the interviews, whether it's a front-end dev or even a business analyst. It's like is this going to be challenging me and testing me? Because I don't want to just do another project. What I'm looking for is something that's going to grow me. And then I'm like okay, you're the right person for this and it's a two-way street.

Speaker 3: 22:52

And I think that's what so many people go into interviews, feeling like, oh, they've got to like me and it's like, well, what do you want? Does this work actually in this company? Align with who you are and what you want.

Speaker 2: 23:07

Talk to me about culture. So we've spoken about measuring for attitude. How do you determine if someone's a good fit for your culture? What does that look like?

Speaker 3: 23:17

This is tricky, because I am all about honoring people's uniqueness and creating environments where they can bring all of who they are to their work. Maybe not every single piece of them, but so many people feel pigeonholed and also leave pieces of themselves at the door when they go into work. And I know myself. I did that because as you move up the corporate ladder, too, and you become a more senior leader, you do feel like you have to leave pieces at the door. And so, in terms of culture, we also, as leaders, have to be careful that we're not choosing only people that fit a certain cultural profile, because then all you're doing is working with people just like you. And one of the principles of Renaissance leadership is called connect to innovate, and it's bringing all connecting disparate things, connecting things you wouldn't think of connecting, and then, when you do, you create innovation. And it's just like Google Talks. You know, they bring in musicians, they bring in all different professions to speak to their staff because they have different perspectives, because they have different perspectives.

Speaker 3: 24:43

And so I'm also all about like, how do you balance out the culture so that you've got varying people? Because what can and often happens is a company will say a team, leadership team will say we really need someone to work on the, to challenge us more and to help us innovate, and then they hire the perfect person that will challenge them and innovate. And that person comes in and they challenge them and innovate and the people don't like it because they're like oh, wait a minute, you know. So it's just not working. You have to be if you're willing to hire. You have to be open enough to change, willing to change.

Speaker 2: 25:29

And I suppose there's an element of making sure you know what your culture is right. I think a lot of companies forget about this.

Speaker 3: 25:36

Yes, yes, and cultures can change.

Speaker 2: 25:40

Yeah, it does. It's quite an organic thing, right.

Speaker 3: 25:42

Yeah, it's a very culture is so fascinating to me because it's not a one size fits all Like. Once you define it, that's it. And also sometimes it's what's unseen. It's hard to see, but you can feel it. See, but you can feel it. When I was with CTP, the company I talked about, we called it the CTP magic, and other people that left and started their own companies tried to recreate the CTP magic and by bringing in some of the same people, absolutely, and it definitely had many, many characteristics of it. But the reality is you can't actually repeat it because it was a period of time and people in that period of time were in a certain period of their lives and their careers and it's like this. So we have to keep looking at culture at intervals and saying, ok, is this what we still want? How are we growing and developing as an organization?

Speaker 2: 26:49

Take me back to when you joined you said CTP.

Speaker 3: 26:53

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 26:54

So you joined CTP quite early on within their journey. How early, how many employees. We weren't.

Speaker 3: 27:01

Well, actually we were part of a different company called Cambridge Technology Group, which is more of an executive education company that taught client server to executives. And then, of course, once the executives were like this is amazing, you connected our mainframe to our you know, now we want to do that real life. And they were like, oh, we need people to do that real life. And and they were like, oh, we need people to do that. And that's when we spun off and launched cambridge technology partners, which was the it consulting part of the firm, and that was 90 people.

Speaker 2: 27:35

Okay, so we split off and um, and then you grew from 90 to how much 4,000 worldwide.

Speaker 3: 27:44

That's crazy In nine years. Okay, and the culture like here's. The amazing thing is the people that I worked with then. We still have an incredible network of alumni. We meet every year, every few years, and I'm sort of one of the instigators of that, because when I go back to Boston, I'm always wanting to see people.

Speaker 3: 28:08

And so it's this part partly selfish. I want to see people, but the alumni I could reach out to anyone I worked with at any time, having not spoken to them in years, and ask them a question or ask for their help, their help, and so they were genuine, they were. They're people who are kind, giving you know. These are things, these are like core values you're raised with.

Speaker 2: 28:32

But and I can resonate with this quite a bit because of an experience. I think what happens is when you have this life experience because it's a, it's a moment like you said, it's a, it's a moment like you said there's a point in time uh, I call it the secret sauce that made it, that made us famous, right.

Speaker 2: 28:49

So I came into the specific company when they were I think I was like number 35 and um, it was such a tight-knit, high-performing team that was doing the impossible, which is always amazing to see when you compare how it can disrupt a behemoth in the same space right, and the journey for this specific company has been interesting to watch and help scale globally, but then more so now they're on the outside looking in to see how they're trying to get to grips with the scaling and the change and founders leaving and this almost like identity crisis of sorts and trying to stay relevant. But I think what I want to extract from you is a little bit about your journey doing the same thing. So you come in and you branch off. When there's 90 of you, there's a core group of people that have good ethics, as you mentioned, and there's a strong culture that is there. Was it defined at that point or did you?

Speaker 3: 29:50

start defining it. I remember the CEO came back from a big meeting at Lockheed, I mean we were working with Fortune 500 companies and he came back and said we need a methodology.

Speaker 3: 30:15

They're asking for a methodology, we need a method. I mean, this is where you know everything's just you just whip it up. And that's where I learned to say yes, and then figure it out later, knowing that you have the skills. And so, through that methodology and then also when we were growing so fast, we had to actually stop. And what we did was we uncovered the culture. So it was always there. I think we just sort of formulated because of the people that we already hired.

Speaker 2: 30:48

How did you uncover it? What was that process Through?

Speaker 3: 30:51

interviews yeah, Through interviews, through surveys.

Speaker 2: 30:54

Interviews internally.

Speaker 3: 30:56

Internally, all internal. So we did surveys internally across the organization and then we interviewed specific leaders with those kinds of questions, like if you were to define the culture, what characteristics would you say it is? Or you know so, things like that. So we really uncovered it and defined it and then we had you know much like every organization once you have it now you've got it.

Speaker 2: 31:23

How did you define it? What was it like?

Speaker 3: 31:26

Through the interviews, the answers.

Speaker 2: 31:29

Was it like a playbook or was it a visual guide?

Speaker 3: 31:32

It was like five or six core values.

Speaker 2: 31:34

Okay.

Speaker 3: 31:36

And then maybe five, and then there were guiding principles Nice. So the guiding principles were kind of like a principle as in a behavior there was a value, there was a value, there was a principle. And then there were core competencies, and then everything was sort of driven off of that.

Speaker 2: 31:53

And did that become the essence? Because later on in your journey you then started developing the training program. Did that then become the core foundation for that from which to build out your modules?

Speaker 3: 32:03

It was especially the core foundation for that from which to build out your modules. It was um, especially the core competencies, and so, after that, the work that we did, we then it, it formulated the onboarding program, and so, and we had an onboarding program, but it was, you know, it was all based on certain people presenting certain things which worked really, but it's not scalable.

Speaker 2: 32:26

Yes, so yeah, yeah, we had a very similar experience because we realized when we went from 30 to 100, we were still kind of okay because we kind of had people presenting and hand-holding.

Speaker 2: 32:41

Then, when we got to like 300, 350, we started picking up big problems and the process we followed.

Speaker 2: 32:50

I then asked to move into the training, so I went from like a commercial lead to an evangelist, to taking the brand around the globe through a big telco and activating their teams.

Speaker 2: 33:01

And then I asked to move to a new division that we had just created, which was training and enablement, and that's when we realized there's something fundamentally wrong, because what happened was we had grown so quickly and it sounds small in comparison, but it's still quite a chunky number, right and you had people wandering around in the business, lost in the system, not doing or adding anything.

Speaker 2: 33:27

No leadership for them couldn't replicate who we are or what we did, because we were in the IoT, the Internet of Things, also just giving really bad feedback about the onboarding process and the experience, because you've got the chaos of all the projects that are now happening both locally and globally, and this running from deliverable to deliverable and also putting out fires. The secret source that had made us famous within our core technical units had been lost, and if you have lots of people that don't know what they're doing, doing IOT, you're creating more noise than solutions. So we had to stop the bus and what I what I did, was I organized uh, I think you know Justin Cohen, yeah, so I organized for Justin Cohen to come in and hold a workshop with our senior leadership, and he was great.

Speaker 2: 34:24

Uh, I have a lot of love for Justin and the work that he does and we had a workshop and in that workshop he asked probing questions and he would ask each of the executives how do you, if you had a we call it a braai, but it's a barbecue Okay. If you had a barbecue, or braai, as we call it a briar, but it's a barbecue, okay? Okay. If you had a barbecue, or briar, as we call it in south africa, and you have to present this business to a person, tell me how you present it.

Speaker 2: 34:52

Yeah, and what was interesting is amongst the c-suite it was fundamentally different and they were shocked to hear how they were all kind of posturing it and then we said, okay, well, what are the key metaphors and words that we use to simplify this without the person's eyes glazing over? And long story short, we went through this you know process of mapping out what is it that we do, how do we verbalize it and visualize it, and built this playbook around it. That then became the essence of our training division, on which we did onboarding, but then also the core principles when we activate co-creation teams that work with us across the globe to follow that and to replicate that secret source and try and make sure that we could do what we did so well as a small team at scale. Exactly.

Speaker 2: 35:45

And in some respects it was a little bit too late. I think there's a lot of pain and a lot of faulty projects and it caused a lot of havoc in the business by not doing this upfront. Yeah, and when I train my startups now, I try and get them to at the small stage to think about that, incorporate it and build it out, because it tends to be the last thing you do, because all you want to do is go run and get business, but you forget that when you start onboarding people.

Speaker 2: 36:10

if you don't have this process well defined, you're just going to repeat the same learning.

Speaker 3: 36:14

Yeah, yeah, no, it's very true, and one of the things that a consistent skill that I teach in my leadership programs is expectation setting, and so one of the things that I think you're also pointing to is what expectations are we setting for people as they come into the organization, for our clients? How are we sharing what we do?

Speaker 3: 36:38

What's our common language, the framework, all of that, and sometimes that doesn't get created for the first few years because, you're figuring it out, and sometimes you don't know it until you've worked on enough projects, and then you can extract it. But like you said, if you wait too long it becomes more difficult. And then you've got this kind of group that's sort of maybe on their way out because it's frustrating. And then you've got people coming of group that's sort of maybe on their way out because it's frustrating. And then you've got people coming in and they want to know what is this like? And we're not clear.

Speaker 3: 37:11

And then, because we definitely went through that same phase and that's partly why the CEO said you know what we're going to stop. We're going to take we he literally took five of us that were in the company seven years or more offline and we did this internal project. So you know and that's a testament too of the leadership recognizing and investing in the growth, knowing that we're going to take the hit now in order to get the gains later.

Speaker 2: 37:43

Nice, nice, to validate that you've had some kind of learning. What other learnings can you talk about before we move closer towards the work that you currently do, because I think it's such a privilege to have had a journey like that in a scaling up a company. What else did you pick up as key challenges on the way? Because one of the things we try and do is help startups scale up.

Speaker 3: 38:03

Yes.

Speaker 2: 38:04

So maybe just share some other real key learnings, pains and what you had to do to solve it, if you have any.

Speaker 3: 38:11

Yeah for sure. Yeah, and you know one is, I think, connect. So we talked about, like defining the core values, the guiding principles, all that. But the next question is and this is what gets lost is how do you actually set up a culture that values and sense on that, that you know that actually fosters more of that, that that you know that actually fosters more of that, and that takes accountability. And so the other big lesson learned, at least that I experienced, was you can have all the core values I felt recognized.

Speaker 3: 39:06

But if you were to ask me, was I recognized often, or do I remember a lot of that? Not really, but often, when things are going well, we actually don't recognize, and when things are not going well, we're putting you know we're definitely, we're a lot stronger as leaders. Like what's going on here? We've got to change. One of the things that's so important is to have recognition as part of the culture, like it just becomes a natural way of working, like it just becomes a natural way of working, and sometimes it can feel like it has to start with a checkbox, and I don't say that lightly, I say that when we need to shift our mindset as a leader and take on new habits. We need reminders right on our phone to drink water or to take vitamins or whatever it is. Why not have a reminder to say and my reminders are often questions. So the reminder might say who did you recognize?

Speaker 3: 40:09

this week. Well, if I can't think of someone, well, who could I? Not for the sake of recognition, but like who's actually gone over and above, and not even over and above, but who's actually done a great job, who's done their job in a really good way, and what could you recognize in that? And so that's a piece I often see is missing, because we're so busy, we're so overwhelmed with everything that needs to get done. But if we're always in that mode, you know employees will come and go, and some of our best ones without that.

Speaker 2: 40:50

Yeah, you kind of take it for granted, especially if your baseline is starting with, because most people that those first 10 or first 50 hires tend to be really, if it's done correctly, a-team players, right, yeah. And where it starts going horribly wrong is when you start introducing B and C-team players. It starts messing up with the formula and that tends to naturally happen for whatever reason. But when you've got 18 players, you tend to find that you just need to tell them what to do and they they deliverable based, the action based and they do it. You can take it for granted. And then you know when the wheels come off, it's like why is it coming off and how do we fix that? And you do then see this bleeding out of 18 players who are like I actually can't deal with this anymore because they run at such a high level, right? So how do you?

Speaker 2: 41:48

Practically? Because it's tough, you know, especially with tech, I think, when you're breaking the new technology into the markets, it's tough to be a leader of a team, a high performance team, because on the one hand, you want to keep driving a sense of excellence and pushing and getting maximum out of your team. You kind of want to be able to measure it without micromanaging it. Okay, how do you? What do you practically put in place to pick up when someone at that caliber is exceeding, and how do you trigger that you should give that recognition, or is it when you're having your weekly stand-ups? I mean, do you have any advice around that?

Speaker 3: 42:30

Well, I think that the best way is that it's a natural. There's not like a formula or a. You know it should be done once a week or once a quarter. It's almost like it has to become a muscle of ours as a leader, like we've got all these muscles of doing things. One should be the muscle of recognition and just like leaders do stand up meetings or weekly staff, you know whatever they're doing. Well, you could use that for recognition, but I actually I would say first it's important to have a one on one with each of your team members and ask them how do you like to be recognized?

Speaker 2: 43:19

Interesting. Never thought of that.

Speaker 3: 43:21

Because not everyone enjoys or likes or wants to be recognized in public. And if we're not recognizing that in people and their individuality, we miss out. And actually we may think, because we like to be recognized in public, that other people do. So that's a really important question to kickstart any new employee coming on board how do you like to be recognized? And then another great question is when you've been recognized in the past, what did you like about it? So you're getting a sense of like what works for this individual. And you know a great leader leads individuals. They're leading a team, but they're actually knowing what each individual needs and wants and is motivated, because they're all motivated differently. And that's another great question, right, what motivates you? You know when you go home at the end of the day what's the most important thing about your work and you'll get really quickly, you'll understand what motivates them. And then how do you use that as a leader? There's some great information now, that's amazing.

Speaker 3: 44:30

So it's a muscle, and it's not easy. But that's where reminders come into play, that's where, like, who have I recognized this week?

Speaker 2: 44:41

But if you understand the DNA of your employee then, or your colleague as a leader of a team, then you can flex that muscle at the right time and easier, in a way that resonates. Never thought of it like that, I think. I've always. Just, you know, I think of team meetings I have and where you then in the team meeting, kind of you'll pick up. You can tend to pick up where someone's gone the extra mile and then acknowledge it, but that might not be the right approach. It's an interesting thought. I like that. So understand your, your, your colleague or your employee at a persona level and then resonate with that. How many people can you lead effectively like that per leader?

Speaker 3: 45:29

uh, that's a great question. Um, well, I can say that of the leaders I've worked with as soon as it gets, I've worked with as soon as it gets beyond maybe a dozen it gets, it can get. Now these are senior leaders. So, as it gets like director level or manager level, I still, I still agree. I mean, once you go past a dozen and even a dozen is, it depends on what you're working on, of course but as soon as you go past a dozen, that's where I usually start questioning okay, who else, who can you, who can lead some of the folks that, because this is too many to report to you and to effectively lead and really give, be able to give everyone what they need, because when you think of a great leader, they're really opening.

Speaker 3: 46:28

Your biggest job is making life easy for your team, allowing them to thrive and tap into all of their talent, because that fulfills them, understanding what they most need and then just getting out of the way, opening the doors that need to be opened for them, and getting out of the way and taking the red tape off. So it may sound like you're not doing much, but that's a lot, you know. Like you're not doing much, but that's a lot. But I think when people think they are excited to become a leader, they often think of not that, they think prestige, power, control. You know, I get to do something with this team and it's like, well, first, what if you actually looked at it and said who is this team?

Speaker 2: 47:21

I think you just touched on a very important point. What is the definition of a leader right? It's not about position, title or power. It's about your ability to intimately know the people that you're going to be working with and understanding to, on how to orchestrate them to deliver, and in a way that is humanistic, personalized and, you know, unique to each individual. It's interesting.

Speaker 3: 47:53

It's like a conduct, if you think of a conductor.

Speaker 2: 47:55

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 47:56

Right, You've got a conductor, you know. If you're conducting just the clarinet players, right, that's a different way. And then the trumpets and the trumpet it's like they're all different, they all play different instruments and when they're together, it's incredible what gets created. But if you don't know how to conduct that team by knowing what each you know has to play and what they need, it's going to be really hard. That's also why, when I work with leaders and we do a lot of that kind of style work in terms of how do you interact with others? What's your dominant style? Because often we're drawn to people like us. We just are, and we're never going to have a whole team of people that are like us. And so where usually the rub happens is when you're working with, like, if I'm an extrovert and someone's an introvert, that can become a challenge. But if I know they're an extrovert and I understand how extroverts best work, okay, now I could lead them If I choose to change how. I think that's what it takes. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 49:14

Okay, so any final pulls of wisdom on that journey before we take a leap forward into your work.

Speaker 3: 49:23

Trying to think back in those days.

Speaker 2: 49:26

What is the biggest challenges that you experienced? You know because you've gone and set up this training and enablement component now.

Speaker 3: 49:38

Well, and this happens in every startup right is, I would say, you know, the good old work-life balance, but I'll just call it balance for sake of burned out when burnout happens in another, you know, in a startup environment. I mean, we were all so young, we were just like it was the perfect setup, right? And also that was the other model we hired. We didn't have that many senior leaders, really, and it was a lot of the energy that was available and needed at that time, and so we were working a lot of hours and we weren't, you know, married with kids. There wasn't a lot of other commitments, so we could. Now, with any startup, there's always, you know, a ton of time that needs to be invested, a ton of energy, and with that, I don't think as a company, if I look back at those days like here's, the crazy thing is the company provided breakfast and often lunch, I think I remember. But so, you know, everything was like taken care of, which, from a company perspective, is great. But what happens is just like you said earlier, you know, you came to really love who you're working with. You spend a lot of time with them. Sometimes we like leave at six in the evening and all just look at each other and go what do we do now? And so there has to be time for recharge and, just like any battery, right, we have to recharge in order to come back out and be strong again.

Speaker 3: 51:25

And so, as a leader, I think that's important in a startup environment is to check in with people, and that all comes from really important questions. To ask, not like, how are you doing, but how are you feeling? Different question, and what do you feel is being neglected right now as you're working here in these long hours, what's neglected? And then you can really get a sense of oh well, how can we bring more, how can we honor more of that? What is the thing you love to do outside of work? When was the last time you did that? Go do that, you know. Or go send your team to a movie for the afternoon, like these are things we think they're oh, it's going to lose money. What we don't remember is that when people have time to actually step away and rejuvenate, they come back so much stronger than if we just kept them full force over a period of time. It's just not how our systems are made up.

Speaker 2: 52:37

Great advice. Talk to me a little bit. There's two points and I just want to bookmark it because I don't want to lose one of the two. So I'll start with the. So the two points is one, the learning and experience you had in your specific journey of the core team that takes you from zero to 10, 10 to 50, 50 to 100, how that changed and how you manage that. And then the other point that I don't want to lose is, once you set up the training and enablement division, what advice you have around that, especially when you're training 100 people a day that's crazy.

Speaker 3: 53:12

So respect if you do that. Or 100 a month yeah, I like to say a day Okay. 100 a month, even is just respect, okay 100 a month even, is just respect.

Speaker 2: 53:18

Yeah, so you can decide where to start there. But I'm keen to learn, you know, from you on those two, two, two points.

Speaker 3: 53:25

In terms of growing, you know, like you know, 20 to 50, 50 to you know, as as that, and again, at that time I was still, I wasn't in the leadership position.

Speaker 2: 53:36

So, I can speak from from from now that I'm actually because you have different people that come in that take you exactly.

Speaker 3: 53:43

I can't always take you all the way through, so that's it yeah, and that's one point to make is is to recognize what maturity, where are we at now with the level of growth and who do we need to lead that process, and for the leader the current leader or the current leadership team to be able to recognize and say am I the right person to continue to take this to the next level? Or perhaps there's parts of who, what I do, really well that can help, and then we should really look at bringing in someone who has these talents or these gifts. And that is a lot of ego, right, like we have to break through the part of our ego that says, oh my God, this was my baby and I start. You know, it's just like when leaders recognize they have to hire people better than them.

Speaker 3: 54:37

Yeah, recognize they have to hire people better than them. If you want to really have a stellar company, you have to be willing to let go of that stuff. So a lot of it is just knowing when to stop and recognize, because what happens often is the same leaders are leading through these or, as long as they have mentors. If you have a good advisory board, you've got a great mentors who can help you through that and you have those gifts and talents to take it through great. But just to recognize the support that's needed when you're going through the next phase.

Speaker 2: 55:19

That point on the mentors is quite a key one. I don't think we emphasize that enough and make sure that there's coaching and mentorship linked.

Speaker 3: 55:27

Yeah, and also mentors and people may disagree with this, but mentors who are in a whole different domain in a whole different business in a whole different business, because they also will see things you don't. It's great to have the mentors from the tech industry, but have a few others you know from retail or from like a whole different industry, because there might be something that they see that's happening that you don't.

Speaker 2: 56:04

Yeah, yeah, interesting, okay, and then let's zoom in on the training and enablement side.

Speaker 3: 56:10

Yeah, so one of the things that really worked in our onboarding was consistent messaging and also getting access to senior leaders in a way that normally most people wouldn't. So, for example, like our CEO at the time was very accessible. You know, like he was there, you know walking around talking to people and as you grow and as you're doing the onboarding, depending on the kind of culture you want, if you want that kind of transparent, open door people are accessible, then you have to demonstrate that in the onboarding. The other piece and this is I think we did this pretty well, but I would say most organizations don't, and especially with the generations that are coming in now is we think of onboarding as a one-way street right, like we're going to teach them what our company is all about, the culture, the guiding principles, the competencies, how everything works here.

Speaker 3: 57:24

Well, when do we actually, in an onboarding process, take opportunities where we get to hear, maybe, what they have experienced before, what works for them, what they think we should do differently? They think we should do differently even that first week or two and to actually be open to what they're saying. Because if we're demonstrating that we value your voice, your voice matters, why not do that at the start of the onboarding? Like we have to instill in the culture from day one those guiding principles and those values, and I think that you know a lot of organizations see it as one way, because that's the purpose. But we have to just as well provide opportunities in that experience to hear from them, get their opinions, get their thoughts.

Speaker 2: 58:17

I really like that. It can create quite an impression for those coming in and help them feel, because who knows the culture better than the leadership? Theoretically assuming that they've done it correctly, that does land quite well with me. So making sure, as a leader of your organization, that you carve out time to go in and be part of that onboarding process Interesting. I like that. Okay, Anything else. You know how did you deal with 100 people a month?

Speaker 3: 58:54

And was that just Good question? I well, first of all, when I discovered training in general and I was teaching the project team, so I would come in train the project teams that were going through the design process, because we had a design process, had an agile process, but we didn't even know it, then I mean, it was somewhat waterfall, but it was very iterative and because our timeframes are so short in terms of design, development, testing, all that, and we included the client in that process from day one. So we were always facilitating workshops, doing, you know, user interface testing and doing almost like sprints in a way, and so one of the things that. So, when I discovered my passion for training and then they were like, oh, we would love for you to present to the clients the methodology while the training team is prepping. Great, I'll do that. So a lot of it is just getting the literally the like time in the air.

Speaker 3: 1:00:11

You know, I got a lot of training experience from just being in front of lots of groups and so by the time we did the onboarding and then you know, naturally they were like you should be the lead trainer. I didn't even think about it, I just was like, okay, there's 100 people. We sat at rounds right Eight to 10 people at a round and I also. I just think, naturally I have a gift for turning content into an experience. It's something I've always I love taking, like all this information, figuring out how to make it understandable. And then, if you're going to teach it how to create an experience, like, instead of telling someone here's how we do, fixed time, fixed price well, how can you actually create an experience where they're doing it and then they get the learning out of doing it?

Speaker 2: 1:01:07

I mean that's the future of L&D. Yeah, I mean it's all right.

Speaker 3: 1:01:12

And so you know, would it have been different if I brought other people on board, Absolutely? You know, would it have been different if I brought other people on board, Absolutely?

Speaker 2: 1:01:33

But you just I a lot of it is facilitation learning how to bring a group back and also to notice what's happening, the divide between theory and practical. And then also the different roles, because we would have everything from pre-sales solution architects to sales to hardware engineer. So we, what we did, is we created, because that was the challenge, right, is there's so much to learn? So we made sure we had these personalized webinars where we would not only provide the theory and then give practical demo, but then they must go away and come back with having practiced the relevant module to get it to land. So I'd be keen to hear some learnings from your side there.

Speaker 3: 1:02:10

Well, a lot of the inside the onboarding we had because we had all different levels in that onboarding and so we would create project teams inside the onboarding that had a mix of what our teams would really look like and then each of them played certain roles on that team or came from that perspective.

Speaker 2: 1:02:33

So would you give them a problem statement and then get them to unlock it as a case studies?

Speaker 3: 1:02:37

to do um, and then most of them were case studies.

Speaker 3: 1:02:40

We've we've done really like uh at the organization so we could at least then share with them. Okay, here's what we actually did um, and specific scenarios that are common in in the, in the company, that we experienced, and then we give them those and have them talk amongst themselves. How would you handle it? They each share, learn from each other, but then also, after the onboarding, they're on a certain path, like each person, I think, believe, had a like a three to six month path of certain experiences that they were able to engage in so that they could get a full range of what it's like at the company.

Speaker 3: 1:03:28

And we rarely we did some tracks you know tracks for like client partners or track, but we often we actually intentionally kept people together Because, again, our culture was no matter what role you play, you're no higher than somebody else. It's like we all are here to solve the same problems and help the clients in the same way problems and help the clients in the same way. And so that's the beautiful thing about the culture is it didn't feel hierarchical, even though obviously there was a hierarchy, but it was a very psychologically safe culture.

Speaker 2: 1:04:12

Nice Love that word psychologically safe. Okay, thank you, I really appreciate you taking the time to share that.

Speaker 2: 1:04:20

You know it's so funny because this is these conversations are never scripted. I like to come into it and you were saying we don't know what we're going to talk about. And you can see, the last hour is really just kind of me making sure that I understand your experience and then extract some nuggets that we can share with the audience and remove some learning curves, because the training and enablement learning curve that I had was phenomenal for me to understand. You can have the best technology and the best core team. You can raise the 1.2 billion and pump it into the business and just scale and the wheels will come off the bus because you just don't have that one facet properly, better done and structured, and I think that's the key takeaway and you've given some great pulls of wisdom there, so thank you for that.

Speaker 2: 1:05:09

Oh sure. So that then formed the basis for you now entering into the coaching realm and take us through the next steps after that, and how you lead up to your current work.

Speaker 3: 1:05:20

So I got to a point in that career where, I mean, I moved around in so many different positions and that was also another great aspect of the career that kept me there, because I kept learning and growing and developing and one of the things I had always wanted to do was work and live overseas, and I was.

Speaker 3: 1:05:47

When I was young, I was a bit of a Euro snob. Everything was about Europe and, you know, most of my family was in Sicily and it was like you know so I was always trying to get there. You know so, I was always trying to get there and travel has always been a passion of mine in general. So, and then it was interesting because as I got up, moved up in the in the company and got access to a lot more Right, I mean in terms of you know everything from P&L to proposals to you know what were our billable rates, and you start to see like, oh, this is interesting, the company is charging this much for each of us to be on this team. What if I? You know, I don't even have to charge this much, but you know, I don't have the overhead. What am?

Speaker 3: 1:06:36

I doing, you know, and then there's this whole like wow, what could I? And also work-life balance was not existent for me. I wanted to do a lot more outside of work than I was doing and I just knew that this wasn't sustainable for me. Friend of mine who had started his own consulting and I was very keen about that and I thought that's interesting. And then I came across a book called the Consultant's Calling Bringing who you Are to what you Do. And like I said earlier and I think this is important for companies to understand is to recognize when employees might not be bringing all of themselves to work, because if you create an environment where they can, they're going to stay. If you create an environment where they feel like they're only using pieces of themselves, they're going to find other avenues right to honor those.

Speaker 2: 1:07:32

And let's just reflect on that for a second, because I've never thought of it in that way, but it makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 3: 1:08:04

You know, if you have an employee that comes into your work environment that is naturally innovative, but you don't allow them to express that within the company. They're going to innovate in parallel to what they're doing, right? Yeah, you can't take the gift out of somebody. We each are born with unique gifts and talents and they come naturally to us. You can't even know, sometimes, where it came from. And, yes, gifts and talents can be developed and honed and mastered. But if the only thing that you do as a leader is focus on uncovering those gifts and talents and honoring them, you will have employees that are fulfilled. You'll have them wanting to do more. You'll have them eager to do well for you.

Speaker 2: 1:08:42

I mean the companies that get this right stand out right. It's amazing because not only do they leapfrog when it comes to whatever they focus on in respect to their competitors, but they also that's where the stories come, where someone says I've worked for this company for 10, 20 years. And you're like wow, how did you do do that?

Speaker 3: 1:09:01

so that's obviously where they're getting that formula right. Yes, yes, so, um. So I'm trying to think of what I was talking about before, uh it's respect to your.

Speaker 2: 1:09:16

Oh yeah, so I oh yeah, so then.

Speaker 3: 1:09:17

So then I left. So I was about to leave, I was like I'm ready to just try this consulting thing out, see if I could do it, and it was more like that. I just wanted to see if I could do it and have more work-life balance. I wasn't thinking like, oh, I'd have my own company.

Speaker 2: 1:09:32

I wasn't even thinking that how old are you at this point?

Speaker 3: 1:09:34

twin. Uh, I was just about 30 okay, nice nice and I was ready. And then, next thing, you know, an opportunity comes in to work and live overseas and I thought, of course it's right at the time, I'm ready to leave.

Speaker 2: 1:09:53

You're going to go left or right?

Speaker 3: 1:09:54

And so I look into this opportunity. And it was a company in Sweden who we acquired it was actually one of our first acquisitions in Stockholm and staffing between regions and countries so that they could kind of, in a way, inject more of the culture there. Like I can start, I can do whatever I want to do. After and it was a six-month engagement I thought okay, and I literally had just bought a condo. I mean it was crazy time, but I thought I'm going to take it and it was one of the most challenging things I did and one of the most rewarding and one of the most rewarding.

Speaker 3: 1:11:07

But it was like a test of consulting, understanding and also cultural differences. Because even in Sweden you know, as an American or anyone from the outside, everyone speaks English and you can easily think, oh, they're just like us. Like every culture is different and we don't. We will never really understand it unless we're actually listening and we're asking questions and we're watching and observing. And one of the things I remember distinctly when, before I came over, as because I think I remember asking a few of the leadership team when other Americans have and I just said Americans because I'm American when other Americans have come over what's worked, what hasn't, and the first thing they would say is all of them have come over and told us what to do. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:11:54

And who wants that right? Who wants to be told what to do? That right, who wants to be told what to do? So I knew that going in, of course, but it was a really amazing experiment, in a way, of the first month I was there I barely said anything. I just asked a lot of questions, a ton of questions. I watched and I listened and I said to myself I am not going to advise, tell anyone how I think things should be done until I fully understand what's going on. And even at that point I got to that point of advising and all that was fine. But, man, there were so many other cultural differences that were so subtle yet made a huge difference in my work that I had to shift the way that I work.

Speaker 2: 1:12:43

Interesting. So that changed you, because I've picked up something I get with myself, even coming here yeah. Working in a Chinese company, I immediately, within the first few weeks, realized what I had to dial back, and it has changed me for sure.

Speaker 3: 1:13:13

And it has changed me for sure is in that culture and a lot of European cultures. Whenever we did training over in Europe, you know we had to dial down the you know touchy-feely exercises and it's just, there's just certain cultures that are, you know, they're looking at it and they're like this is ridiculous. So you just have to, you know you have to fit into that culture and make it work in different ways. You have to fit into that culture and make it work in different ways. Well, when I worked over there in Sweden, I would run a whole meeting, workshop or a whole workshop or a meeting with the team and agree and at the end we'd agree on certain things. And then after the meeting I would come to find out that several people actually didn't agree but they said they did. And to me it was very interesting because first I took it like they lied or they weren't honest and it's like, well, no, actually it was a cultural thing like losing face and actually disagree. It's just not part of that culture. And then, when I finally understood how it works, I then took time after all the like. It took me extra time, but I had to work within that cultural norm. I wasn't going to go in and change it. I mean, I could have it, probably would have taken a long time, so you have to.

Speaker 3: 1:14:40

That's the other thing is, you know, as a startup, if you're then growing into other cultures or other countries, it's so important. And I know many of the MNCs I work with are saying we want to do this training with you know all of our different offices, but what they're not recognizing is that each of them learn differently because of their culture too, and so, and then who they place in that as a GM or as a leader in that company in that location, makes a difference too. So it's just these things that we think, oh, it'll be fine. We have to really spend time looking under the covers and also how people are raised, like if you're raised in an environment where, for example, your schooling is paid for, your pension is paid for, your things are taken care of, right, because one of the things I noticed is, over there there wasn't a lot of entrepreneurs.

Speaker 3: 1:15:47

One, because it's super expensive, so there's not an incentive, right, it's a lot of money to become an entrepreneur. And two, most of them actually left the country, you know. So there's just different pieces of a culture that are important to understand and that. So after I took on that assignment, which turned into almost a year, I made incredible friends. I mean, I just I loved. There was a time where I thought, well, maybe I'll just stay. You know, and that often happens if I stay in a country long enough.

Speaker 3: 1:16:22

Yeah, stockholm, and I hope I mean, from what I've said, it probably sounds like the office and the people were not great, but it was an incredible experience and I loved. All the people that I worked with were so committed and they appreciated that. I didn't go in to tell them what to do, and actually we just had a 25 year reunion a year ago or so and so. So then when I and that was my other intention was, when I go there, let me learn as much as I can that can help me eventually start my own business. And so I ended up working a lot more with marketing and sales, which I hadn't had a lot of experience in.

Speaker 3: 1:17:09

And then when I came back to the States, to the office in Cambridge Massachusetts, I did not expect this, but within two days I gave my notice, like I walked into the building and viscerally, literally, I just felt like I'm done, I've completed my time here. And it was weird because I didn't think I thought I'd be here for a bit and and I wasn't coming back to much. I mean, I wasn't coming back to like this new position or anything. So I took that summer off and I got my first call for work and I thought, ok, I'm this, I'll start, and my goal was I want to make the same amount of money as when I left corporate, but work half the time.

Speaker 2: 1:17:58

Nice.

Speaker 3: 1:17:59

And I reached that in two years. Nice. And then everything went down the drains.

Speaker 2: 1:18:06

So you know the high tech bubble burst. Yes, so I started in 98. This is 2000s.

Speaker 3: 1:18:12

Yeah, 2000, 2001. So my business was booming and then, overnight, when the tech bubble crashed, you know it burst overnight. I lost all my clients and I thought, okay, I can go back and get a job I can always get a job. But there was a part of me that, just like part of my soul, that was like I don't think, I can do this. So how can I, how can I support myself with the gifts and talents and skills that I have? So what I started doing was I started running public seminars because that's what I knew how to do. I picked topics I knew people needed and wanted and I was like I'm going to get certified as a coach. I've always wanted to be a coach. This is it. So I took a home equity line of credit off my condo and I got trained and certified as a coach.

Speaker 3: 1:19:10

And back then there was only like six coaching schools and there was probably only about 500 certified coaches. Coaching was not on the map. In fact, the first two years that after I got certified, several coaches in my school we would do evenings of coaching in Boston just to acclimate, let people get a sense of what coaching is, because it was so new People go. I don't know if I want to coach and they didn't know what it was like, so we would do sample sessions and so so, in any case, I started running these seminars and, you know, at the time everyone was looking for jobs, right.

Speaker 3: 1:19:52

So I ran a seminar. It was free and it was called the seven steps to a successful career seven something. It was a to navigate or to to. Yeah, it was basically for people out of work, and I took a piece of advice that I learned from my grandfather, who came over from Sicily and he started a barbershop and he was a barber. He started a barbershop in New York city and he started a barbershop. He was a barber, he started a barbershop in New York City and when the Depression hit and he was so brilliant when you think about it, he was an entrepreneur at that time. And when the Depression hit, he continued to give people haircuts, but he just gave them IOUs and, of course, when that came up, when things were looking up, the loyalty.

Speaker 3: 1:20:45

Yeah, who had a great business because none of his customers left.

Speaker 2: 1:20:53

And so I was thinking at the time that is pretty amazing.

Speaker 3: 1:20:55

So what I did was I did this seminar. I remember thinking I was reserving a large library at the time because I know it could fit quite a few people and in the library, if you reserve space at the library for a workshop, you can't charge. So I didn't charge. But I thought you know what I'm going to run a topic that people need right now in terms of, like, getting yourself marketable, knowing what your gifts and talents are, all of that. And I filled that room with, I believe, probably 100 people, almost 100. And I thought you know what I'm going to offer a very reasonably priced coaching package that I know people could afford because I'm not going to charge. And it was like a ninety, nine dollar, I don't know, two sessions or something Right, and I sold several, many like, and I'll never forget because People that hired me then or that heard me then they hired me years later after they got a job. And so again, it's like this you know how can we leverage what we know and do what we can and honor also what the market needs. And then I was running other seminars and I started running workshops for entrepreneurs and the next thing, you know, some of them would finish the workshop and they go. Oh my God, this is so great. Can you teach me how to do workshops in my own business? And I would say, sure, why not? Right, because that was my thing how my second business, workshop University came about. It was actually a place where people could come to learn how to turn their content into an experience. And the next thing, you know, I start this other second business outside of my corporate training, because I was sort of like on hold. And then I start speaking across all the coaching chapters across the country and in Canada helping coaches create workshops.

Speaker 3: 1:23:06

And then I was spending a lot of time with my two different parents at different times, with their health, and each of them passed at different times, and I thought, ok, I had always wanted to move from Massachusetts. It wasn't my long term place and I thought, ok, it's now or never. My father was in remission, things were good, so I that's when I moved to Colorado and I said I can have two businesses there. But you know, just like when you're marketing something, if you share that you do all these things, nobody hires you because they don't know what to hire you for, and so I ended up letting go of the corporate training. I'm like I'm just going to, there's tons of entrepreneurs in Boulder, colorado, startup Mecca, right, I'll just focus on the workshop stuff. And so I did. I moved out there and what happens? My corporate clients start calling back and next thing you know, I'm going back to Boston almost every month for corporate training. I'm like this is crazy.

Speaker 2: 1:24:08

And so then uh, and do you think that was because they picked up all the activity you were doing on the other side of the fence?

Speaker 3: 1:24:14

Actually no, I forgot to share that after about three years of doing the workshop stuff, my corporate clients started coming back because you know the market was better. So I was running both businesses and able to do each part time. I don't I mean in everything I do I'm not a full, I'm not working full, full time. That's important to me because, I like to balance different things that I do, and training is exhausting, I mean.

Speaker 2: 1:24:42

I remember when I was doing it in the in my previous life I would, when I finished a two hour, three hour session, I had to go have a hard nap.

Speaker 3: 1:24:51

I was like no it's very, it can be very. Yeah, and especially and also facilitation. It's no-transcript, because in my heart I had always wanted to be a keynote speaker. I mean, since my 20s I knew the vision that I had and I had let that vision go because of what other people needed and what I felt I could give them. And even though I could do that really well, what I knew is there was messages inside of me that I wanted the world to hear. I've got to get my message out. So I stopped working with other entrepreneurs to get their message out. And then I ended that business and got back to my corporate roots and that's how and now you know that's how it kind of came back to doing corporate training and then adding keynote speaking and executive coaching, and that's been for the last decade.

Speaker 2: 1:27:05

Wow so it's sort of a Such an amazing journey, got all the feels.

Speaker 3: 1:27:10

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:27:11

So interesting and I think when you do that selfless kind of sharing and giving, it does find its way back.

Speaker 2: 1:27:22

Yeah, it's amazing how it it opens. It's like opening doors that you haven't thought of. Often I'll be challenged by people around me when I'm hosting delegations or you know. People want to come and do stuff with us and they're like, well, where's the business? And I'm like it's not about that, right, just let the people come, let us share, let them feel what we're doing, and it's yielded amazing results, because those people have come back to me later on with the business. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:27:56

And it happens every time. And then I'll go back and it might be a year later and they'll be like, wow, my boss will be like where did this opportunity come from? And I'm like, remember that thing that you said I mustn't do that I did and despite you saying it, Well, this is the result of that. Yeah, and I think there's a lot to be taken away from that and I think you've re-inspired me away from that and I think you've re-inspired me. I'm thinking about I actually really enjoyed training. When I was doing the training and enablement, I would get really into it and with my team, I would push them quite hard. I was lucky enough to have a small team of four when we were doing these activations and training, but after every session it'd be like what's the 1% that we're going to improve on?

Speaker 2: 1:28:36

And within a few months. It was just crazy. We were scoring in the 90s from every training session. People were just like this is the best training I've ever been on. I actually miss giving the training and I kind of left that behind. And I think you've inspired me because I've been building a new curriculum in AR that I want to unlock. I think I'm going to do some free training courses and unlock it and just really, you know, and my business partner will probably freak out hearing this- He'll be like who is this woman?

Speaker 2: 1:29:08

But I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. I think you've inspired me with your story and it's an amazing journey and I think the work that you're doing is amazing. So let's zoom in on that. The renaissance of leadership.

Speaker 3: 1:29:32

What does that mean? Why is it so important? You know, I always loved working with my hands since I was young. Don't forget about the crystals. Yeah, and the crystals. I used to collect crystals and so and I think that was a lot of that inspiration came from my grandmother, who was incredibly gifted. I mean, she sewed her own clothes, she made everything and she was so crafty, you've got Italian heritage. Half Sicilian and the other half is Eastern European. So Czechoslovakian, Hungarian, Austrian.

Speaker 3: 1:30:04

Interesting, okay and so, but most of my holidays were spent on the Sicilian side of my family, and so every time we'd go visit my grandparents and my aunt and uncle in New York City, I'll never forget my grandmother would and everything was, of course Italians would understand this Everything was covered with plastic, right, like you know, the kitchen, the dining room table had plastic over it and a lot of the nice furniture and plastic anyways. But I remember she'd bring out this big, huge can, tin can like a Choco Nuts can from coffee, you know, like up to the brim, with crayons in it and she would just dump all the crayons onto the dining room table and I have four brothers, so four brothers and I at the table, and she'd have paper right at every seat and we'd just be at it coloring. You know what a great way to, you know, quiet kids down and everything. And so I just, somehow it was my solace, like in childhood when I needed to, like you know, get away from the chaos sometimes of like being in a family with, you know, four boys and a zillion father. I would just go in my room and make stuff and I loved making gifts and all of that. So I bring this up because when I was in high school not high school, but college and high school actually I was on this, I love learning I was always like, oh, how can I make, how can I learn how to make baskets, or how do I do pottery, or how do I?

Speaker 3: 1:31:40

And my friends would start making funny. They're like what class are you doing now? Like underwater basket weaving or something? And what I came to realize is you know, like you said, your secret sauce. There's a I did a program way back that was very intense growth and development that has you really look at what drives you, like what's the thing that drives you. And there's a I did a program way back that was very intense growth and development that has you really look at what drives you, like what's the thing that drives you.

Speaker 3: 1:32:03

And there's always like a winning formula, a thing that, no matter what you do, it helps you get through. And it's a skill you have. And for me it was mastering. It was like I was so driven to master everything I did and that, unfortunately, really came from a compensation, for somehow I felt I lacked, like I wasn't good enough, I wasn't perfect. And while winning formula is an amazing skill because it comes from a place of lack as an adult. Sometimes it just takes over and that's what I recognize is. In this program I learned oh, if I just recognize that this is a winning, this is a skill I have, I can tap into it whenever I want. It doesn't have to be out of survival, then how could I use it?

Speaker 3: 1:32:56

And so one of the things the reason the Renaissance kind of why I bring this up is because I like to go deep in a lot of different topics. I'm not just, you know, like a trainer or not just a keynote speaker. I'm not just into psychological safety. There's lots of areas of leadership I'm interested in and when I was younger, and especially in the corporate world, people would learn about all these other things I enjoy and they go. You're such a renaissance Often I get and I didn't know what that meant, and I would look it up and I go, oh yeah, that's kind of you know.

Speaker 3: 1:33:32

Basically a renaissance man or a renaissance woman is someone who has, you know, talents in like technology and science and art and you know a lot of different domains.

Speaker 3: 1:33:45

And actually what I recognize in myself is if I'm in one too much, it actually I get like agitated, or if I'm too stagnant. That's why I like to go back and forth. And so when I about six or seven years ago maybe a little bit longer I started looking at all my curriculum and I started realizing, like I have all these amazing courses, but actually what I'm actually doing is a leadership program, why am I not packaging this up? And so, as soon as I recognized that I also started getting interesting concepts, I was like well, what can I be known for? What's my thing? What's my message? And that's when I started recognizing, oh, you know, what are the key? What drives me, why do I do what I do? And the biggest thing is for me is allowing people to do what they do best and do what they're gifted at, and honoring that uniqueness in each individual. And to me, that was very you know, that was like Renaissance Plus. I needed to create a brand that I wouldn't get tired of.

Speaker 3: 1:35:09

I know it sounds funny, but I'll get bored of things. I'll come up with this great brand or this great thing and I'll be like this is great, and then two weeks later I'm like I couldn't find something that I would really want to stick with. And then when I and it was funny because I remember I was in a massage with a woman, a massage therapist I've worked with for years back in Boulder, and sometimes she would get intuitive hits, like in our massages, and she's very intuitive and she goes the word Renaissance keeps coming up. I don't know why and I'm like I'm not into like Renaissance festivals or anything. I don't know why either. But she said, yeah, it just keeps coming up.

Speaker 3: 1:35:49

And then it hit me and I was like Renaissance, oh my God, I used to be called that and did it. And so one thing led to another and, as a result, I started researching the Renaissance more, researching Leonardo da Vinci and then learning all these other interesting, quirky things, which one is really actually pretty wild. But I don't know if you know this, but Leonardo can write backwards mirror image.

Speaker 2: 1:36:20

I do not know that.

Speaker 3: 1:36:20

Yeah, so, leonardo, if you see, some of his writings, on his diagrams, on his designs. They look like writing, but you're like, I can't understand it. That's weird. And he wrote mirror image I believe. I don't know if this is completely true, but I thought I remember reading that the reason was so people couldn't like know what his you know, some of his thoughts were or secrets or whatever. It was right. But if you held it up against a mirror Then it would yeah. Well, this is so freaky, but my mother used to be able to write First. She was ambidextrous and she used to be able to write mirror image her name, but with her opposite hand, opposite writing hand I'm trying to.

Speaker 2: 1:37:05

Okay, just hang on a second, let me process this. So to write mirror image you're not only right, you're, you're writing backwards you're writing yes and you're, and I don't even know.

Speaker 3: 1:37:14

But here's the weird thing is yeah because she did it, I, I could do it. I thought, I just thought, everybody could do it.

Speaker 2: 1:37:23

Just without practicing. Without practicing, oh yeah, Hang on, I don't even understand what you're saying. I understand the principle of holding it up, yeah, but you literally write. Okay.

Speaker 3: 1:37:33

And so that when you put it up against the mirror, Then it reads correctly, yeah then it reads correctly when it's in a mirror. So here's the weirdest thing is I'm researching him, discovering he can do that, and then realized I can do that. That's so weird. There's just this weird connection, right.

Speaker 2: 1:37:49

Got it.

Speaker 3: 1:37:50

And because a lot of times we have gifts that we think everybody has and then we realize, oh, everybody doesn't have that.

Speaker 2: 1:37:59

But I think there's more to it. You know there is, yes, short gifts, but it's not just that. It's this childlike curiosity to go deep on different things, because that's what you've explained and that's what Leonardo did, and even Michelangelo, right. So I just recently found out I don't know this, you mentioned it, it was when I was watching your content. I don't know this. You mentioned it, it was when I was watching your content that Michelangelo would break into morgues to go cut up cadavers so that he would know how to actually perfect the art of recreating that.

Speaker 2: 1:38:33

That's right, and I was like that is insane and you mentioned it's quite creepy and it would have been. I mean, if you go to court and be like, explain yourself, well, yeah, let me just tell you it's art, but you know, and it ties into what you're saying and I think I'm starting to understand where this is going. And I want to see how I tear this back to the title against leadership, because there's a thought that's brewing in my mind now and I want to see if that's the meant to be the end result of this. But it's not just being gifted. I think we all gifted with regards to the human existence and the ability to learn and to perfect.

Speaker 3: 1:39:09

But it requires discipline and that curiosity to go down and go deep yes and to want to yes, and you hit on exactly what the biggest skill I teach in renaissance leadership, which is curiosity, because without curiosity we don't learn.

Speaker 2: 1:39:32

I mean, and people think it's like a once-off thing, but it's not. No, no, it's a continuous, perpetual cycle of learning.

Speaker 3: 1:39:39

Exactly, and I don't think I even realized it in so much of my life growing up that so my driver was mastery, but the tool was curiosity and also being open to learning and growth. But, yeah, and so what ended up when I started thinking about Renaissance? How can I bring more of these qualities and characteristics of that period of time, the leaders of that time, and bring them into companies today? What would that look like? And that's how I started developing the five principles and then, through my keynotes, sharing those and then, next thing, you know, the programs just kind of came out of that. But the premise is always curiosity, because the first principle is ask new questions. And my biggest and that was the other interesting thing through all this is after I developed the principles. Then that's how the book came about. But basically, if we go back to the principles, the first one is ask new questions. Like great leaders, ask great questions, leonardo, and you think of all the brilliant. You know Einstein, leonardo, like all of the really amazing thinkers, they asked questions. It wasn't like they knew they actually had these amazing questions. That then prompted something else, and then I started realizing God.

Speaker 3: 1:41:18

Whenever I'm stuck in my life or in my work. I actually don't go find information. I always ask myself a question. It just comes naturally. I ask a question, and so that's why so many of my programs talk about how the art and science of asking powerful questions and so I have a whole series on that, because there is a science and then the art. I always say the art of asking questions lies between the question and the answer, and that's in our listening, and so we can't ask powerful questions. I mean we could have a whole list of them, sure.

Speaker 2: 1:42:04

No but it's more about in real time to actually hear what's being said and knowing where to probe next. And I think that's something that I developed early on in my career when I was doing occupational health and safety and I had to go do these site inspections and audits and understand, at different levels in the organization, where things were going wrong and I had to try and get to the causality of it and I didn't realize how well that would serve me. In my current work that I do, which is around innovation and going into corporations, kind of came across, because all I'm actually doing is going in and listening to what's keeping them awake at night and then probing and asking the right questions to get to the causality of the issues, which are then solved through the application of technology.

Speaker 3: 1:42:51

And exactly, and it's just like in this conversation, right, like you're asking, you're listening and having and then coming up with new questions to ask from what? From what you're hearing, from what you're understanding. So it's like listening is so critical to to the power of asking questions, because you can't have a dialogue without it. I mean you can, but it's not an authentic dialogue.

Speaker 3: 1:43:22

So yeah. So then the second principle is honor the diversity so I talk about. You can ask all the great questions in the world, but if you're not honoring the answers and the diversity of answers right, diversity I mean everything, from diverse perspectives, thinking, people, cultures, background, experiences, everything and honoring that, you don't have to agree with it, you don't have to think it's right, but like, how can you actually honor it and understand it and respect it? And then the third one is what I call connect to innovate, and that brings in kind of one of the famous families back in the Renaissance was the Medicis, or Medici. I mean, people will pronounce it, it's pronounced Medici.

Speaker 2: 1:44:15

Tomato tomato.

Speaker 3: 1:44:16

Yeah, exactly Lorenzo de Medici, and he was a famous banker and he would actually bring people from all different domain areas philosophers, artists, scientists, engineers, politicians together to solve some of their major problems Knowing-.

Speaker 2: 1:44:37

Within his environment, Within the community. Within that period of time, they'd come out with better solutions.

Speaker 3: 1:44:50

And again I bring this into the corporate. I bring this kind of principle right back to say who are you seeking information from, or advice or mentorship or whatever it is. Who are you sharing your challenges with that are different from you? Like, find a person that's so completely different from you and see if you can have a conversation with them. Get people from different domains. If you're working in operations or you're working in tech, you know, bring someone from marketing, bring someone from sales, bring you know and just see how they approach this problem.

Speaker 2: 1:45:30

It's an interesting point because I've picked up when I've engaged with corporations and we pull them into our discovery workshops. It's a lot of empathy, pure curiosity and probing without bias or fear, right, and I love playing that role, but it is quite challenging, but the results are phenomenal. Yeah. So that ties into what you say.

Speaker 2: 1:46:14

It's exactly why, anytime leadership teams have offsites, I always whether it's me or somebody else encourage get an outside facilitator, so everyone can contribute the room because we make sure we've got the decision-maker number one, but then you've got the different hierarchies within the subgroups that are there and then, when they're at the individual tables, I'll put one of my senior team members at each of the tables with the pure objective to watch the dynamic, because there will always be someone trying to overpower and trying to dominate and to tone that person right down and make sure that other people get heard, because because we would hire people from all different domains.

Speaker 3: 1:47:01

But that's really about you have an idea, your team creates this amazing app, let's say, or even just a design of something. Well, how far does that reach? And I don't mean as a product, like who you're serving and the customers, I mean within your organization. Who else knows about what you've accomplished, how you've done it, what lessons learned you've had, what you've actually done that could be repeatable, reusable, altered, shifted, changed? How can you magnify the impact of what you just did beyond your team, whether it's to what you just did beyond your team, whether it's to departments in your organization, completely new regions or even outside of your organization. How could what?

Speaker 3: 1:48:31

you designed, help the community that you live in. Are we asking that you know so? Again, it's a thinking. Again, it's a thinking. It's a challenge in how we think about what we create and the impact Because so many things, there's so many inefficiencies in companies because we don't share enough knowledge. I mean, I have actually worked with some of the companies I work with are very large, worked with some of the companies I work with are very large and I will literally say they won't even know that we did training. You know we did training or some kind of sessions or learning in one group, no clue, and they're doing the same thing and the same with pretty much any project that is being worked on. Now. That obviously takes a lot of internal sharing and also knowledge. You know we used to have knowledge networks and internal webs you know that you can get information from, but it requires a lot because it requires that process and step of putting information into somewhere so people can access it.

Speaker 2: 1:49:44

Got it.

Speaker 3: 1:49:45

Yeah, you kind of have to take the time at the end. Because if we're not capturing the learnings and what we did, we're losing yeah, we're losing so much productivity, efficiency and even just innovation in general.

Speaker 2: 1:50:03

Yeah, it's all I mean. Innovation is all about that feedback loop, right.

Speaker 3: 1:50:06

Yeah yeah. As quickly as quick. Like what did I say? Fail hard. You know the creative thinking exercises where you can take like one problem, one solution that's in a totally different arena, like, let's say it's a solution in the wellness industry, how could I apply that in the tech industry? And what you're? You're not really applying the direct thing, you're applying the qualities of it.

Speaker 2: 1:50:37

Interesting.

Speaker 3: 1:50:38

So again, a lot. All of this always goes back to asking the right questions. One of the exercises I do in my keynote um, when I'm doing my full keynote on all the principles, is I ask people what's one thing you love to do outside of work, like, what's one thing you love to do outside of work, just one. Nature Okay great outside of work, just one nature okay, great, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:51:03

So what is it about nature or hiking that you love? What is it about that? Uh, I think it's a combination of uh being in in the actual natural environment fresh air, the sounds. I can feel a fundamental shift happening in my energy state.

Speaker 3: 1:51:18

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:51:27

So how can you bring those qualities that you just shared? How can you bring that to your work, more of that, to your work? I would say that if we, that's a good question. So my knee-jerk reaction is put a hotspot in the forest and a can, and a desk that I can work at right or bring greenery. Yeah, like you know why not yeah what?

Speaker 3: 1:51:45

why not like now?

Speaker 2: 1:51:47

that's the most, your working environment being immersed more synergistically within a natural environment. That would be amazing. I would love that, yeah right.

Speaker 3: 1:51:55

so even even that was what? Three or four questions, three questions, right. And that was an example of connecting outside and inside. Right we think of outside of work, different from inside of work, but if we pull out the qualities, it's like if something's missing, it's not often the thing that's missing, that's the thing, it's the qualities of what's missing that's important. And so, again, it's just, it's it's. I guess part of what I feel like I do is just is help people think in a whole different way, um, and find things they didn't see before. Love it.

Speaker 3: 1:52:53

What's the fifth? And I think one of the biggest reasons is because we think, as leaders, we have to hold people accountable, and it's actually impossible. We can't hold anyone accountable. We can hold them to account, but we don't have control over holding someone accountable. So the question is how do we actually create that? So the question is how do we actually create that? Well, we actually do it by giving them more ownership, but having them be the owners.

Speaker 3: 1:53:24

So, for example, acting with accountability is about asking the right questions to create accountability, so that you, as a leader, don't feel like you have to be on someone's back all the time. And so in my book. For example, in the first chapter, which is accountability culture of accountability there's three questions, like if you literally closed most of your conversations, the one that have actions you know out of it. With these three questions, you will create a culture of accountability. And the first one is what we often ask what are you going to do by when? What will you take on and by when? Right, so you have the action. That's great. Like you could leave. Every person could leave with a meeting, with their actions.

Speaker 3: 1:54:17

But the second question we don't often ask is how do you want to be held accountable? Most people don't even have never even gotten that question asked. They don't even know how to respond. I don't know. What do you mean? Well, do you want to email me when you're done with it? Do you want, are you going to tell me how you're going to get this to me and what it's going to look like? How do you want to be held accountable? And so they're telling you. You're not telling them, they're telling you. So now they've said something. The third question is and I've actually altered this, so the one in the book is it's a little bit extreme because not everyone feels comfortable saying this. But the third question is Tell us the extreme one first.

Speaker 3: 1:55:05

The extreme one is if you don't do what you say you're going to, how do you want me to be?

Speaker 2: 1:55:13

Why is?

Speaker 3: 1:55:13

that extreme, because many people don't like to ask if you don't do what you say you're going to do. It sounds very, it can sound very motherly or like a parent?

Speaker 3: 1:55:25

Like what if you don't do it? So I get that now and I will make that in the second revision. But basically the question, a different version of the question would be if something comes up and you're not going to reach that, how do you want me to be? How will I know? So the whole idea behind these questions is who has ownership of all this? The individual?

Speaker 2: 1:55:52

I mean, they've birthed it. They've guided you on how they're going to validate the delivery of it, and then if something happens that interrupts it. What are they going to do?

Speaker 3: 1:56:00

Yeah, You're not telling them. Most leaders will say here's what I'd like you to do.

Speaker 3: 1:56:05

I want you to run this report and tell me what you find. I need this done by X date and if you don't do it, if you don't think you're going to get it done on time, email me two days before and they say, okay, but there's not a whole like if you really want true ownership, have them tell you and then you can obviously like have a conversation and say, oh well, actually I really needed a day before and not whatever. You decide that, but the higher, the more they own it, the higher likelihood they will stay accountable. It's going to make the person feel like they're working with you not for you.

Speaker 2: 1:57:03

Yeah, which might seem irrelevant on the surface level, but I think it has a deeper psychology behind it.

Speaker 3: 1:57:10

Yes.

Speaker 2: 1:57:10

Which is great yes.

Speaker 3: 1:57:12

And, as you can probably see, Psychological safe place.

Speaker 3: 1:57:15

Psychological safe place. There's no coincidence that my career started out as a consultant. And what's the greatest skill that consultants have? The skill of asking questions. So I grew up in that environment. I grew up asking clients what do you need, what's important to you, how do you? Just?

Speaker 3: 1:57:37

We had to figure out how to distinguish want from need right, because just because a client says I want something, especially when you're designing a computer system and an interface, doesn't mean that's actually what they need. So we as consultants have to distinguish why is that important to you? And then you start realizing oh, the process actually can be streamlined in this way. So what they first said they wanted, it turns out what they actually need is something a little bit different. And so that I guess questioning and everything I learned back then ended up coming full circle and ultimately, after I launched Renaissance Leadership. This is before COVID. You know it was good, but I will tell you that as a result of COVID. Now, the other thing about Renaissance that I absolutely love is the Renaissance period was a time of rebirth. Right, it was a time of innovation, inventions, but it was also, if you look it up, it was a rebirth of humanity.

Speaker 2: 1:58:45

Why do you think it came through so strongly in that specific period I had? This discussion with someone recently and I'm still perplexed. Do you know that?

Speaker 3: 1:58:53

before the Renaissance was the Black Plague. Okay. So, and it's interesting, right, because we had COVID, and then look at how much changed and shifted as a result to that right, and so at that time, you know, we had the Dark Ages, and then you have this Black Plague, and so you're coming out of some really hard times which naturally, you know, human beings they want like some way to rejuvenate. There's like a, there's like a whole different flourishing.

Speaker 3: 1:59:26

Yeah, flourishing, and, and so the Renaissance was a rebirth of humanity. That's when the arts, the science, all this stuff came back into play. All this stuff came back into play, and the interesting thing is, as a result of COVID, my work, my body of work, has gotten so much more traction, because I do. And we are going through a rebirth of humanity, because unless we get back to like treating people as human beings, you know it's going to be, it's just going to get worse and worse. And so that's the beautiful thing, like I feel blessed to bring this work into the world and be able to relate it to what we're going through.

Speaker 3: 2:00:23

And so what I say is you know we're going through what I call the next renaissance and think differently. It's not. You know. Command and control no longer works. People want meaningful work. They don't want just a job, they want their diversity respected. It's like there's all these sayings. When you look back, it's like we're just asking for what human beings truly desire and having that in the workplace.

Speaker 2: 2:00:56

Stunning Such a nice build-up and closing to this discussion. So just to recap, can you just go through the five principles again?

Speaker 3: 2:01:08

Sure. The first one is ask new questions. The second is honor the diversity. The third is connect to innovate. The fourth is magnify the value and the fifth is act with accountability.

Speaker 2: 2:01:20

Love it. I'm immediately going to take that and study it, because I think every single person could adopt that. Everyone's a leader in their own, in their own right, yeah, and I think if you apply those principles, you'll probably see yourself elevate in ways that you can't imagine yeah, within your respective existence. Uh, yeah, I think it really. It's powerful stuff you've. You've got a book that you've written as well.

Speaker 3: 2:01:55

Yeah. So, interestingly enough, after I launched Renaissance Leadership, I was starting to think, I was starting to look back again at all the programs I've done and saying what's the common thread through all of this, what's the tool that I use? And I started realizing that I was giving, I was providing questions, certain questions that really made a huge impact. And I thought what if I package these questions up into a book and made it available to more people? And then, interestingly, I started noticing, oh, these questions relate to a part of a culture, whether it's a culture of curiosity or a culture of accountability or a culture of success. And so then I start having these different culture of things and I thought, oh, this could be the chapters. All right, I'll have a chapter on the culture of learning, the culture of self-awareness. And then it was interesting because I thought and I had a very strict deadline for this book, because I was committed, I committed to having it printed to sell at a conference, and that's how I work If I don't have deadlines.

Speaker 3: 2:03:17

Put yourself on the hook, oh yeah, always, and it's always got to be someone else, you know.

Speaker 2: 2:03:22

I tend to be the same.

Speaker 3: 2:03:24

I learned that in the consulting world, right, say yes and then figure it out later. So what I ended up doing? So then I have these chapters and I thought, oh my God, wait, there's so many more questions and, by the way, the title says 20, the subtitle is 27 questions. There's a lot more than 27 in the book. I just knew that if I put like I have 27 key questions, so those have these little icons next to them, because even if you just ask those, you're in great shape, but there's probably about 100 more in the book. But there's probably about 100 more in the book. So, anyways, as I came up with the chapters, I started realizing, oh wait, these could be independent chapters. And so I came up with this idea of asking 12 mentors, previous managers, colleagues that I worked with they could review each chapter when it's done.

Speaker 2: 2:04:24

So you've been squeezing all of your knowledge out of you.

Speaker 3: 2:04:28

Oh thank you. And so I had this idea where I recruited a dozen people I highly respected, a dozen, you know, people I highly respected and I looked at, I kind of matched up their talents and gifts with the chapter and I asked them if they would review and give me feedback on it. And so that's how I was able to finish the book so quickly, because once I was done with the chapter, I gave it, I sent it off, and then I worked on the next one, sent it off, I sent it off, and then I worked on the next one, sent it off.

Speaker 3: 2:05:03

And I will say this the hardest chapter I had to rewrite probably two or three times was the chapter on awareness, the culture of awareness, because self-awareness and this is part of EQ, which I teach a lot of it's hard to teach, it's hard to write about it and make it impactful enough for someone to shift their thinking as a result of reading, and so, anyway, so if you read that chapter, you'll probably kind of start to see like, wow, this is harder to, and so it was an amazing experience and the book got finished like a week before it got printed in time, and so it is a.

Speaker 3: 2:05:42

I also wanted to make it art like, very fun to to to read, easy to read, tools based, and so it's really a resource and that's why each chapter is independent and that's also why the tabs are on the edge, so you just go to the one you want. It's all alphabetical and that was the other weird thing. You know when things just happen divinely is, I was looking at ordering them in a logical way that you might kind of learn and they ended up being alphabetic.

Speaker 2: 2:06:22

Those things you can't make up. I mean to help the, the listeners or people watching visualize just your book is functional, is what are you saying? So yeah, you've you've designed the book as a resource, and can you just highlight what you mean by the tabs being on the end?

Speaker 3: 2:06:33

yeah, so each chapter focuses on fostering a certain type of culture, whether it's fostering a culture of curiosity or a culture of accountability or a culture of shared success. So let's say, god, I could really improve that part of our culture. Then you just go right to that tab and you just read that one chapter and it's like a 15 minute read and it includes stories. And it's like a 15-minute read and it includes stories. It includes a place where you can try out the questions and it includes the set of questions that you ask. Some of them you ask yourself as a leader, some of them you ask your teams in different settings, and then the end of every chapter is a cut-out quote. So it just does kind of lock in the learning from that chapter.

Speaker 2: 2:07:27

Fantastic, and maybe just if people want to engage with you, can you just share the kind of process you would follow to come into their organization? Or their teams and what you would do.

Speaker 3: 2:07:34

Yes. So basically I'm engaged in three different ways. One is as a keynote speaker, so this could be for your offsite meeting, your company-wide meeting. That can be in-person or hybrid. So a lot of MNCs I work with it's all hybrid. So it's a sorry, not hybrid. It's virtual, so I'll do virtual keynotes. And then I also come in to do leadership development programs. Those can be I have an Art of Asking Questions leadership series, I have a Renaissance leadership series and then those can be standalone programs as well. So what I often get is leaders across an organization going through the program where they do a half-day workshop a month For how long?

Speaker 2: 2:08:19

For six months Okay.

Speaker 3: 2:08:21

Six to eight months, depending on and that's typically how I work in terms of the programs, and then and that would be doing a half-day workshop with theory, practical, both. Oh, yeah, yeah, Actually, a lot of it is practical Because they need to take it back internally Exactly.

Speaker 3: 2:08:38

Start empathizing with their teams and then when it's in a series, the beautiful thing is they get homework actions after that and then the next session we recap Okay, how did it go, what did you learn? And then for the ones I do for an intact team either intact team or a dozen of leaders across the organization, I've done this where it's like the VP of operations, the sales marketing In those programs, each person also gets their one, a one-on-one coach, through the program. So now we're really locking in the learning and I I make sure I don't coach everyone, and so I have several coaches on staff and trainers as well, because I think it's important that people are matched up with people that works with their style, and also I just think it's good to have a mix. And then the last is one-on-one coaching. So I do one-on-one executive coaching. Typically that looks like anywhere from director level above. I coach and it's a six-month engagement interesting and.

Speaker 2: 2:10:01

I feel so privileged to have these moments where I could sit and go deep with you like this and thank you for taking the time to come share your story and your work not only with me but with the listeners, because I think you've given so many pills of wisdom in this conversation. But based on everything you've said, I mean maybe you can might be bias coming from you, but I'm keen to know how much does that change an organization once they put their leaders through it? It must be a fundamental shift in their culture.

Speaker 3: 2:10:26

Yes, it is. If you think about it, like in this conversation we've had, there's been a few times where you thought, oh, I hadn't thought about that, I'm going to go implement it right. So if you think of implementing that one thing and the difference it could make, that's like times.

Speaker 2: 2:10:47

Personified yeah.

Speaker 3: 2:10:48

Right. And so I always say the extent to which the impact is, the extent to which you're willing to make the effort. What I do is I provide the environment that gives you those new thoughts, that new mindset, and then the structure that helps you implement it, so that you are in a safe environment that you can keep coming back and going. Okay, I tried this. Sometimes it worked, and then this time it didn't. What am I doing wrong?

Speaker 2: 2:11:20

And then, over time and it doesn't take a lot of time, a six month, I think it'll be immediate I'm trying to imagine sorry for interrupting you, but really inspired by this, because if you've got a bad manager, let's not call it a leader, because there's a difference between a leader and a manager. Right, and what you, what your work does, is turning managers into leaders and turning individuals into leaders in their own right. If you have someone that is in charge of you and he's coming back and now starting to ask the right questions versus dictating, that's going to have an immediate impact not only on your mental state, but the team dynamic, but the outputs, so that would start creating a renaissance within your own culture, within your business, immediately absolutely, absolutely, I mean, and that's why this work is so powerful and the art and the art of asking questions is so powerful in our society, in general because everything happens through conversation.

Speaker 3: 2:12:29

I mean ultimately yes, you can go code the science of asking questions and the art of listening right, to really truly have those two skills and we create an environment that's psychologically safe. Anything and everything is possible, amen, yeah, and everything is possible.

Speaker 2: 2:12:57

Amen. Yeah, jean-marie, thank you. This has been an enlightening conversation and I respect you and the work that you do. I'm grateful that there's people like you out there, helping to enable humanity to be better humans. I think that's the essence of what you're doing, and communication is key. I think it can fundamentally change the trajectory of not only an individual, a group or an organization, which is important and what we need right now. If people want to reach you, where would be the best place to contact you.

Speaker 3: 2:13:37

Yeah, best place is JeanMarieSpeakscom and everything's there.

Speaker 2: 2:13:42

Fantastic. Well, thank you again. When's your last day in Singapore?

Speaker 3: 2:13:48

So I leave in a couple of days, okay.

Speaker 2: 2:13:51

Well, I hope that you get to enjoy some R&R and some sightseeing and enjoy Singapore. I know you've been hard at work this week and thank you for taking the time on your Saturday to come and sit and share your thoughts Really appreciate you.

Speaker 3: 2:14:06

Thank you.

Speaker 2: 2:14:35

Thanks, thank you.