Finding Strength in Estrangement and New Beginnings

Leaving behind a cult-like church and experiencing the heartbreak of divorce, Megan Stover shares her transformational journey with us in this episode. Her story is not just about estrangement but about the courage it takes to redefine relationships and values. Discover how Megan navigates the emotional labyrinth of family rifts, particularly with her sister and brother-in-law, and the powerful role that differing beliefs and lifestyle choices can play in these dynamics.

Listen as we unpack the intricate dance of family acceptance and the vital importance of setting boundaries for personal growth. Megan opens up about the trials of coming to terms with the limits of influence over loved ones' choices and the bittersweet process of grieving the ideal family dynamics we all yearn for. She reflects on the pain of feeling marginalized due to her decisions and the delicate balance between reaching out to rekindle relationships while safeguarding her mental and emotional well-being.

The conversation takes a reflective turn as we explore the notion of a chosen family and the therapeutic journey of self-discovery. We delve into the profound impact of past abuse on personal healing and how societal views on punishment and emotional expression shape familial interactions. As Megan shares her insights, we examine the cultural expectations that mold family roles and the liberating experience of redefining one's values for a healthier, more fulfilling life. Join us for a thought-provoking exploration that promises to resonate with anyone navigating the complex web of family dynamics.

Transcript

Speaker 2 0:08

Hello everyone, I'm Al Neely. Welcome to Listen Up Podcast. Today we're here with Megan Stover and we're going to talk about estranged families. Because of some of the past issues that she's dealt with with leaving the church and having separation from her husband you've run into situations and various family members where you guys are estranged right. So as we got into the topic, as we're going to get into the topic, I think it's going to be something that we're going to see that the topic I think it's going to be something that we're going to see that is happening a lot, especially right now because of politics. But so let's jump right in. So talk to me, tell me who, since you've left the church and you've divorced, tell me who you've been estranged from.

Speaker 1 1:09

Well, it's kind of interesting because I was thinking about it as I was preparing for the podcast and because I do have some estranged family or that is like in that space of like working through being estranged, I guess you could say, but going back into my younger years, where we were really in the cult church, like we were separated from the family. So it's been more so a consistent theme throughout my life, more so than just within the last four years since my divorce. Right, but within the last four years, yes, I am working through estrangement with some of my family members my sister and brother-in-law.

Speaker 2 1:58

Right yeah, Let me read a definition of family estrangement. Family estrangement can cause a range of emotions, including grief, anxiety, loneliness, bullying and differences in sexual orientation, gender identity, religion and political views. Yep, so.

Speaker 1 2:42

I would add significant value differences, which I think that can kind of come under the like umbrella or whatever, of some of the things that you mentioned.

Speaker 2 2:51

Right. What do you consider that?

Speaker 1 2:53

Differences in values, just what, like your core values, right, who you are as a person. Those things, I think, can play out in some of these other areas that you listed off.

Speaker 2 3:09

Gotcha, yeah, yeah. So you were saying your sister-in-law and your-.

Speaker 1 3:16

So it's my sister and my brother-in-law. Oh, your sister, okay, and I would say that that falls under the value, differences and religion.

Speaker 2 3:29

Yeah, is she still in? The?

Speaker 1 3:31

church Kind of like, maybe even lifestyle choices, yes, but not in the cult church.

Speaker 2 3:36

Okay, so you guys basically had the same upbringing.

Speaker 1 3:39

We did.

Speaker 2 3:40

Okay, is she younger?

Speaker 1 3:42

I'm the oldest. And then, yes, she's two and a half years younger. And then I have a brother that's five years younger than me. Okay, is she younger? I'm the oldest. And then, yes, she's two and a half years younger, and then I have a brother that's five years younger than me.

Speaker 2 3:49

Okay, yeah, and when you actually left, you left to get married at 20, 21, 21. Okay, and they were still in that.

Speaker 1 4:01

We all still were like I married in that religion.

Speaker 2 4:05

Gotcha.

Speaker 1 4:06

Yeah, so we were all in that religion, moving forward of the same belief system.

Speaker 2 4:14

But you were at a different church because your husband, at some point in time, you left and, um, you guys started attending another church.

Speaker 1 4:22

We did so. We had left that cult church and then attended another church for about five years and then another church for about five years after that.

Speaker 2 4:29

Yeah, did you notice the difference?

Speaker 1 4:32

Yeah, I mean, each church that we went to is a little less strict. Is that what you're asking me?

Speaker 2 4:36

Yes, and did you also notice that the you started getting farther and farther away from the, the values of what your sister and your brother thought?

Speaker 1 4:49

Hmm, um, I think that I was just coming outside of my brother and sister. I think I was just coming into what my own values were.

Speaker 2 5:00

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 5:01

Outside of religion, outside of family, outside of culture, outside of society. Like what does Megan want her own values to be Right and as I worked through that, you know I made decisions.

Speaker 2 5:16

Right.

Speaker 1 5:17

And as I made decisions, you know some people don't like it. It's hard, Change is hard. You know some people don't like it. It's hard, Change is hard. And so, yeah, the repercussions of choices that I made were uncomfortable feelings within the family because of change.

Speaker 2 5:37

Gotcha. So how would you say that's affected your relationship?

Speaker 1 5:49

Are you and your? Sister close now? Well, no. So over the last four years there was a slow decline in the relationship and as the relationship declined and there was less communication, there was just less communication. Overall it became uncomfortable. She didn't want to ask me really about like at least this is my perception of it. I wasn't asked like about me personally, like how am I doing? She would ask about like the business and my daughters, but that was it, and so it was very shallow.

Speaker 2 6:25

Talk to her about it, or you're not that kind of person.

Speaker 1 6:29

Not that I I do love deep conversation.

Speaker 1 6:34

I do love deep conversations. Have I mentioned it that way to her? No, there now, over the course of time, as our family was working through the divorce because I'm the first one out of the family that like the really close I guess the people that we have been the closest to that has gone through a divorce. So as we were navigating that as a family and working through that, I would say that I became stronger within myself and started setting up boundaries for myself and as I've been healing, I'm just not going to continue acting like everything's normal, brushing things under the rug, showing up to family functions and and just putting a smile on my face and and all of that. To me that's fake and so I want to have a conversation. Let's talk about it. And so I did reach out to the family and tried to have a conversation. Like we have a lot of I mean, you know how it is with families. You have a lot of history.

Speaker 2 7:46

Yeah.

Speaker 1 7:46

And when you don't talk about things for years, they build up, and so I asked for a conversation so that we could go through some of the things from the the cult when we were within the cult to more recent times and then even ever since the divorce they my sister and brother-in-law never got back to me about, like, when they were available to set up a time to meet for lunch and to have this conversation, and so time went on over time. I'm like, okay, I'm not going to keep just doing and being the same. Right, I'm going to create a boundary for myself that is healthy.

Speaker 2 8:29

Gotcha.

Speaker 1 8:29

And so that's where, yeah, that's where I'm at.

Speaker 2 8:33

So did you ask to have that? Was it an entire family? So was it your parents and your two siblings and their spouses, if they're married Like did I ask to have a conversation with everyone no it was just them.

Speaker 1 8:51

It was just my sister and brother-in-law. I've had individual conversations with my mom and I've had conversations with my brother and my sister-in-law, and so with them, there's nothing right now that has been left unsaid In families. You want to be seen, you want to be heard and you want to be valued.

Speaker 2 9:15

Right.

Speaker 1 9:15

And when you're not seen and you're not heard or valued, what's left? I don't know Right, Right what. What's left.

Speaker 2 9:26

Um, I don't know.

Speaker 1 9:29

Right.

Speaker 2 9:29

Right that your family is supposed to be a safe place. Correct, right that's supposed to be a place of protection. And um, for those that don't have that, lots of times they're seeking that and they, so to speak, they look for other ways to make them feel comfortable, find family. That's why people they join gangs, they fall into cults, things like that. So, yeah, I can. To me, family is very important.

Speaker 1 10:07

Yeah.

Speaker 2 10:07

Right, extremely important. My family is, um, my mom's side of the family. We're really tight knit. They've gotten older so a lot of them have passed away and I'm learning now my, my father's side, the family's massive Right and right and we're all connecting, so it's just a good feeling. So having that place where you know you can be safe, correct, you're supported, it does make a big difference.

Speaker 1 10:37

It does Right, so we'll go ahead and finish. I was going to ask you, go ahead.

Speaker 2 10:42

I was going to say that's not the way you're feeling, right.

Speaker 1 10:47

No, and the other word that I wanted to add was accepted. You just want to be accepted for who you are, and that list that you listed off of what was it? It was the reasons why there can be estrangement.

Speaker 2 11:04

Right Some of the causes of yeah.

Speaker 1 11:06

Correct, like just being accepted for who you are and who you want to be.

Speaker 2 11:11

Right.

Speaker 1 11:11

And I think that sometimes and this can go into politics it can go into, like, your gender identity, it can go into your belief system, it can go into your lifestyle choices.

Speaker 2 11:22

Right.

Speaker 1 11:23

I think that we want to be able to feel safe and accepted for who we are, regardless of any of that, and when you don't feel that, with your family.

Speaker 2 11:35

As an issue.

Speaker 1 11:36

Correct. And then and then, yeah, you start to create these boundaries to make you feel safe. So have you have experienced family estranged?

Speaker 2 11:49

Yeah, um, probably with my daughter. Okay, um, and I thought about it for a while, because it happened right around the eight, when she was around 13 years of age um, obviously, her mother and I are not together, but it was a situation where, um, we tried, we did, it wasn't, we weren't going to make it, and what wound up happening? Is we not wind up not liking each other? Okay, we tried to be amicable.

Speaker 1 12:29

Sure.

Family Acceptance and Boundaries

Speaker 2 12:30

To raise a child, Right? I guess she was forced to take sides for whatever reasons they were, and yeah. So, yeah, that's a challenge, yeah, but one of the things. After she got to be 18 years of age, I realized that, you know, when she's an adult, she's free to make all of her own choices. You know, outside of what I can do about the situation, there's really nothing I can control, Right. So I don't know if you've gotten to a place where you are in your relationships where you know you can't control the focus of their mind. You can only control what you can focus on.

Speaker 1 13:30

Right.

Speaker 2 13:30

And you have to keep yourself in a good, positive mental state of mind, correct?

Speaker 1 13:41

So have you gotten to place yourself in those situations around people that don't accept you? You're constantly dealing with feelings of shame and judgment. So, when you create the boundary and then you no longer at least this has been my experience you no longer let yourself in that circle, you don't feel those negative feelings anymore, and so I think that since I have stood up for myself and created that boundary, yes, I feel better on one side of it, like you still go through a grieving process, because you're grieving what you wanted your family to be or look like, and all of that.

Speaker 1 14:32

And I think that I have been working through that now, but I did just recently reach out to her.

Speaker 2 14:41

How'd that go?

Speaker 1 14:43

She told my sister-in-law the one that I have a really good relationship with that the family was going to do something for christmas and to let megan know, and so when my sister-in-law told me, I thought okay, this may be an opportunity for me to reach back out to her and say um, what did I want to say?

Speaker 1 15:03

I wanted to say that I appreciate you inviting me to the family dinner and I'm interested in coming, but we need to have a conversation, and so I did, and she has since responded, but I have not responded back to her yet. I've had a rough few days and it's crazy that we're talking about this, because I'm really right in the dredges of this all unfolding.

Speaker 1 15:30

Yes, wow, but yeah. So I haven't responded because it's been a tough few days, but I was proud of myself for just reaching back out and kind of starting to open up that conversation again.

Speaker 2 15:43

Yeah.

Speaker 1 15:45

But it'll be a slow process and I still may put up. I still may put up other boundaries, depending on how things go, because sometimes you will notice and this goes for any relationship People can say one thing, but then, if their actions don't follow what they're saying, you wind up putting those boundaries back up to protect yourself. So, and the reason I say that is because my sister did come to me about a year after my divorce and she apologized for how her and my brother-in-law had like acted and reacted from the whole situation, but then nothing changed and our relationship didn't change. And that's what I'm talking about. When people say they're sorry, they apologize for something, but then behavior doesn't change, it's like you put the walls back up, you put boundaries back up to protect yourself.

Speaker 2 16:48

Is she still living the church Christian life?

Speaker 1 16:52

Yes, it's not deep into the cult, but, yes, they're very religious. They have strong values and morals and belief systems. And yes, morals and belief systems, and yes.

Speaker 2 17:04

So One of the things that you are taught as a Christian, you're supposed to forget and forgive and not judge. So you don't feel like that is taking place.

Speaker 1 17:41

No, and another question that I would like to ask my sister is from my position and from what I'm observing, I don't see them treating some of their other family members the same way as I have been treated and and there's a there are other family members on my brother-in-law's side of the family that have been through a divorce, that live a different lifestyle that they want to live.

Speaker 2 17:53

Yeah.

Speaker 1 17:55

And I see acceptance on that side, but not acceptance with me.

Speaker 2 18:00

So um, do you think maybe I'm not trying to get too deep into it, but have you thought about maybe birth order has something to do with that? I mean the way you're asking question. Yeah, I don't know, is she the middle child? She is Okay. So I don't know if you know anything about birth orders, but my oldest sister is like very protective Right, so I don't know, perhaps that could be a thing.

Speaker 1 18:36

Maybe, yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 2 18:38

Yeah, you won't know until you had that conversation. Huh, correct.

Speaker 1 18:43

Correct.

Speaker 2 18:43

Hopefully you'll have it.

Speaker 1 18:44

Yes, and again the conversation just going back to wanting to be seen and heard and validated.

Speaker 2 18:53

Yeah, wow.

Speaker 1 18:55

Yeah, yeah, so going back to your daughter that was 13. She was 13. And how old is she?

Speaker 2 19:03

now. She was 13 when she said that she didn't want to have anything else to do with me. Right? How old is she now? Yeah, yeah, she is 26. Well, she'll be 20.

Speaker 1 19:24

Yeah, I think, she's 26. Yeah, and when was the last time you spoke to her?

Speaker 2 19:30

Oh, probably just before the pandemic.

Speaker 1 19:37

And how do you feel about that?

Speaker 2 19:42

Um, now I'm fine with it Because she's an adult. Feel about that. Now I'm fine with it because she's an adult. She made her decision to do that and I'm fine. For a while there I couldn't figure it out. It was very, uh, perplexing. Why to me, why she felt like that? Um, but she has her reasons. I just wish that we could have a dialogue as to why she has those feelings. But I don't know, maybe she still thinks I'm the same person that she was when she was 13. I am completely different now. Yeah, and uh, you know I I'm, I'm fine with it. I wish it was better, but I've learned over the years and then actually talking and having the podcast and just dealing with other people people from the mental health, you know you shouldn't put yourself in a place where you're feeling guilty about someone else's decisions, that you can't make a decision and you can't change their mind about.

Speaker 1 20:55

Right, you're, you're. You have no control.

Speaker 2 20:57

Right. So I got to that place. So I mean it's, it's nothing I can do about it.

Speaker 1 21:04

It's interesting because we're talking, we're having this conversation and you're on the one side of the estrangement. Yeah, and I'm on the other side.

Speaker 2 21:12

Yeah.

Speaker 1 21:12

So it's kind of, I guess, interesting that we're able to share from our own perspective.

Speaker 2 21:19

Right.

Rehabilitation and Chosen Family

Speaker 1 21:20

On it? Yeah, because there was a point in time where I did block my sister and blocked her on all social, blocked her phone number and blocked my brother-in-law yeah, but right before I decided to reach back out to her, like I unblocked her, um, and so you know, listening to you talk about it and talk about like feelings of no control, and I'm sure even at the beginning it's almost like maybe you even wanted to do, I don't know Did you want to try to fix it?

Speaker 2 21:53

Well, I didn't know how. Ok, I didn't understand. So it took me. It took me a while to figure out and process why she felt the way she felt. And then it took me a while and a process to figure out after I found out I started processing it in my head, most likely why she thought and felt that way. Then it took me a while to say, okay, I had behaviors that caused that situation. And then I processed that, and this took years. And then I processed that behavior and then I went well, if somebody, if she has that belief, that is true for her. But if you don't open up the door to figure out if anything's changed, then you don't know what that person is like. And then at that point I decided just to let it go, there's nothing I can do about it.

Speaker 1 22:55

Right yeah.

Speaker 2 22:57

So I don't, I don't hold it.

Speaker 1 23:01

Well, I'm glad you've gotten to the place where you are able to just live your life without that. I know I figure you want it resolved, but you seem like you're in a good place.

Speaker 2 23:15

Yeah, yeah, one of the things I do have. I have a very, very big and strong family. We have a lot of family events and relationships and we're all really close and they pour into me. You know I'm everybody's uncle, so I get, you know, my nieces and nephew, uncle Al. You know it's so I get love from family.

Speaker 1 23:47

Yeah.

Speaker 2 23:47

It's not like it is from your child, of course, but I do understand.

Speaker 1 23:53

Yeah.

Speaker 2 23:53

That relationship that family has, which is Phil for you, because that's a lot of things that you're missing. How do you feel?

Speaker 1 24:08

It's still very fresh.

Speaker 2 24:09

It still is Okay, yeah.

Speaker 1 24:13

You know the family that I didn't really have a relationship with growing up which it's interesting because I'm sitting here talking from my perspective of not having a relationship with my extended family growing up because of religious reasons but yet you're sitting here sharing that you're just now finding this whole side of your family that you're getting to meet and learn and develop a relationship with. And so for me and the family that I didn't really get to be close to, I am just developing, slowly developing my own relationship with them and just working through. I'm still working with my therapist on the relationship with my sister and brother-in-law, and one thing that she, my therapist, does talk about a lot is not worrying too much about the future.

Speaker 2 25:19

Yeah.

Speaker 1 25:21

Just worrying about, and not even worrying about, but just dealing with the present day.

Speaker 2 25:26

Yeah, concerns.

Speaker 1 25:27

Correct.

Speaker 2 25:28

Right yeah, worrying concerns are right.

Speaker 1 25:30

Two different things Exactly, yeah. So, yeah, it's a, it's a struggle, but you get through it. You get through it and I think, like you're saying when you surround yourself with another thing that I was reading about as I was preparing was like your chosen family and how that's becoming a big thing these days. Right, your chosen family, and so that, I think, has really helped me over the last few years just developing my chosen family and then my friend group outside of. I am trying to develop a friend group in different areas. Before, my friend group was all religious based.

Speaker 2 26:12

So then, once you left the religion you had no friends.

Speaker 1 26:17

And so I love belly dancing, I've got my belly dance friend group. I love Latin dancing, I have them, I have my staff who I'm very close with, yeah, and just networking like business, friends Right, things like that, and so just developing those relationships outside of the family so that I feel supported.

Speaker 2 26:40

Yeah, yeah, yeah of the family, so that I feel supported. Yeah, yeah In the past. We kind of glossed over some things. Your relationship with your parents. What type of abuse would you say you've experienced with them and have you resolved those issues?

Speaker 1 27:16

Let's just talk about what type was it? Mental or they but, I think that it could.

Speaker 1 27:24

It would run the gamut on mental, emotional, physical oh, really wow because the emotional was the non-acceptance and the manipulation and only feeling accepted when you were following the rules and doing what you were supposed to do. And I think that that also comes a little bit along with, like the mental and the indoctrination and all of that. And then the physical, which a lot of people in our generation dealt with physical abuse, you know, you've got the. I mean, the way that they corrected us when we were young was through spankings.

Speaker 2 28:18

Punishment, basically Corporal punishment. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 1 28:23

So that is more, so what I would-.

Speaker 2 28:26

How do you feel about that?

Speaker 1 28:28

It's interesting because-.

Speaker 2 28:29

You think it's an effective way to do things.

Speaker 1 28:34

No, but I don't have the answer for what the effective way is.

Speaker 2 28:37

I know and I think about that all the time Right, and I feel like what it leads to is the society that we have right now, that our only solution to deal with something, or our initial solution is violence. Right, yeah, yep, and over the years, the violence has just escalated to the point where somebody just pull a gun out and shoot at you and then we'll ask questions later.

Speaker 1 29:08

Right.

Speaker 2 29:08

Right. So I think it's not such a good idea. And you just see as you have the decay of your morals with each generation, then you just start to see it escalate.

Speaker 1 29:24

Yeah.

Speaker 2 29:24

So I'm a big believer. You can't go back to make things better. So yeah, but good. Well, what I was? We were talking about the abuse. We were right and then those are the things that you had to deal with. Have you ever confronted your parents about that?

Speaker 1 29:43

Well, my dad had a stroke six years ago.

Speaker 2 29:47

Okay, how debilitating is it?

Speaker 1 29:49

Well, he lost his balance, so he pretty much lives in a recliner. He's on a feeding tube and he can't swallow, swallow. So and like, as the time is going on, it's becoming apparent that his mental capabilities are declining Gotcha, so there are certain conversations that I will not have with my dad.

Speaker 2 30:15

Gotcha.

Speaker 1 30:15

Just because, well, I already know his viewpoint.

Speaker 2 30:18

for one thing, and it hasn't changed.

Navigating Family Dynamics and Mental Health

Speaker 1 30:21

Correct and um, there're. They're one of the things that I wrote down when talking about like family estrangement was um in trying to reconcile, was like empathy yeah and like I don't feel that from my dad at all and so. But then another thing I wrote down was talking about was like different generations and that generation they're not. They have not been taught to be in touch with their emotions and really expressing, like, how things make you feel and all of that. You know, it's just that generation is very much.

Speaker 2 31:02

Ignore it.

Speaker 2 31:03

Yes and like pull up your big boy pants and right yeah so, in essence, what's happening is they're not ever addressing any of their experiences and trauma correct and is compiling um experience after experience. And the funny thing that I'm seeing where I believe and of course I'm not a therapist but it manifests itself in a way where it comes to abuse and what you'll see with men, especially men's abuse, we don't necessarily have the ability to communicate like you were talking about. You know, have all these different groups. There is no way I have the energy.

Speaker 2 31:52

I don't. I don't have the energy to have a belly dancing group a salsa dancing group. You know, just a girl's group a men's group you know, I don't have energy Plus. I don't have energy Plus. I don't know if I could talk that long or that much about something. So, um, this is about and like that's okay.

Speaker 2 32:10

Yeah, so when you're, you're a man, a male. Back then, um, it was even less of it, right? So typically, what winds have taken place is men have issues with abuse, violence, sexual abuse or um control and domination, um, so all of those things um were really really an issue for um men has kind of continued now, but we are able to talk about it now. Were really really an issue for men. It's kind of continued now, but we are able to talk about it now.

Speaker 1 32:50

Yeah, so you're able to fix some of it, because more people are talking about it.

Speaker 2 32:55

Because more people are talking about it. More people are talking about it, so it's becoming accepted. Yeah, yeah, it's in a safe space. Correct, right, and you were talking about safe spaces. Yeah yeah, it's in a safe space. Correct, right, and you were. You're talking about safe spaces.

Speaker 1 33:06

Yeah.

Speaker 2 33:06

So men have to learn that it's okay. We've all kind of experienced those things and it doesn't make you less of a man.

Speaker 1 33:15

That's right.

Speaker 2 33:16

Um, so you don't have to gunny sack all that around.

Speaker 1 33:20

Right.

Speaker 2 33:21

Yeah, interesting.

Speaker 1 33:23

Very interesting, I think so.

Speaker 2 33:26

Yeah, but your mom? You think she's been open. Is it since your father's gotten to the point where he's been sick that you're able to have these conversations with her? Was she like that before?

Speaker 1 33:44

have these conversations with her. Was she like that before? I do think that ever since my divorce I've been able to have a little bit of a deeper conversations with her than I was before.

Speaker 2 33:50

Yeah.

Speaker 1 33:50

Because before, when I was in the religion, you didn't really I think I was in the same place as what that generation is. You just put on your big girl panties and suck it up and keep it moving.

Speaker 2 34:05

Ignore all the trauma. Exactly, and just let it manifest itself.

Speaker 1 34:08

But then also also, I was just in a little bubble, Right. I was in that little sheltered bubble and so while I was in that little sheltered bubble, there wasn't a lot happening, right, until I got out of the bubble and realized how fucked up the bubble was.

Speaker 2 34:27

Right.

Speaker 1 34:30

Um, but yeah. So my mom and I, we have been able to have some conversations. There are some that, like, I still haven't had with her and I don't know if I ever will.

Speaker 2 34:40

Yeah.

Speaker 1 34:41

And that and that's okay too, but we're navigating our own.

Speaker 2 34:47

Yeah.

Speaker 1 34:48

We're navigating it as best as possible.

Speaker 2 34:51

Yeah.

Speaker 1 34:52

So yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 34:58

So your father? We know there's no going to be any development of relationship there. I'm wondering if your mom's going. Okay, there's a part of Megan that I wanted to be.

Speaker 1 35:21

You know.

Speaker 2 35:22

I wonder if she actually think, feels like that. Um, cause you say your brother, out of everybody, your brother is probably farthest away, probably not to the extent where you know you are, but he's the farthest away. So maybe is that true.

Speaker 1 35:38

We're probably at the same place.

Speaker 2 35:39

Okay, I would say we're probably at the same place, yeah, yeah. So he just came to that place when he was like 18 same place. Okay, I would say we're probably at the same place.

Speaker 1 35:43

Yeah, yeah so he just came to that place when he was like 18 ish.

Speaker 2 35:47

Yeah.

Speaker 1 35:48

And me much older.

Speaker 2 35:50

Yeah.

Speaker 1 35:52

Yeah.

Speaker 2 35:54

Yeah, that's funny. I feel like the American culture. We hold men and women at different standards.

Speaker 1 36:07

We do.

Speaker 2 36:08

Right and perhaps I don't know. I'm just guessing. Maybe your sister had a different standard for you because you were the oldest and you were the female, so I don't know what she probably expects know what she probably expects.

Speaker 1 36:22

Well, if you think about the way that the religion is set up, it is where the female is supposed to be. She is supposed to be this certain. She's just supposed to fall in line. So the fact that, number one, I asked for a divorce, then went through the divorce and now have been figuring out my own values that are best for me and the life that I want to live, and then now setting this major boundary, it's just kind of like it keeps adding on. It keeps adding on.

Speaker 2 37:05

I see, I see, no, I don't, but I'm probably in a different place than most men. But I can tell you, when I was in church and I had failures, I was failing my family and things were so dire because I wasn't able to do something that was expected of me. What I've learned since then is that the longer you live, the more life experiences you have, and because of those life experiences, if you're sensitive to them, you'll learn something. And when you learn that, you can make these adjustments, and then you know what. It's okay, right, because you're going to have your ups and downs. You talked about the fact that you had to go through bankruptcy and foreclosure on the house and things like that, but that's fine, right, that's past. Now you're a successful business person and you're about to open up another business. So these are all life cycle things.

Speaker 1 38:41

Exactly.

Speaker 2 38:42

So I had to get to that place, right, um, but a lot of men can't Right, but a lot of men can't. I think that's why we have the highest suicide rate of you know, and it's really high. It's like two no, it's like three times higher than women in this country, because we can't get to that place as men. So I've gotten to the place where I understand that it's just life, that's the way I look at it.

Speaker 1 39:09

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 39:14

Thoughts.

Speaker 1 39:17

Like I had a thought, but then I don't know, I feel like it could go into a whole rabbit trail. So then I, I didn't say it, okay, but yeah.

Speaker 2 39:27

Give me a little taste. Go ahead, come on. We might have to talk about it next time, but go ahead.

Speaker 1 39:33

I mean, I think that part of it goes into when you're dealing with family estrangement. It's very important, like we talked about, support group.

Speaker 2 39:39

Right.

Speaker 1 39:40

We also talked about the shame and judgment from not being accepted and all of that.

Speaker 2 39:44

And.

Speaker 1 39:45

I do think that there are steps that you need to take in order to take care of yourself, and I think that your mental health is one of those.

Speaker 2 39:53

Absolutely.

Speaker 1 39:55

And so it was just interesting listening to you talk, because when you think of mental health, you think of therapy.

Speaker 2 40:07

Right.

Speaker 1 40:07

And going to therapy.

Speaker 2 40:09

Right.

Speaker 1 40:09

And being open to therapy Right and going to therapy Right and being open to therapy Right and talking to professionals who may have a little bit more.

Speaker 2 40:15

Right Understanding. Understanding and experience Right.

Speaker 1 40:22

To help you navigate something like this Right. So, from a man's perspective and a black man's perspective, what are your thoughts on therapy?

Speaker 2 40:33

I think it's a good thing, but I think with men we've been so guarded and we've been so conditioned to think that we have to tough it out. Yeah, you're not a man if you're not, if you're expressing your feelings. In some cases you could just simply have a conversation with other guys. Then you can start to realize that you guys are all experiencing a lot of the same things, but men just don't talk to them. Guys don't talk to guys like women do. But if you did, guys don't talk to guys.

Speaker 1 41:06

Yeah.

Speaker 2 41:07

Like women do. But if you did, you would realize that, hey, he's having some of these same issues too. So I think that's even a good place to start, but, of course, of people that have a better understanding of why and they help you dealing with the traumas in the past will definitely make um can make things clearer for you. Yeah.

Speaker 1 41:31

And that's one thing I love about your podcast.

Speaker 2 41:33

What.

Speaker 1 41:34

The fact that you bring some of these conversations, you create a space for some of these conversations to be had.

Speaker 2 41:41

Yeah, that's the whole point.

Speaker 1 41:43

Yeah, that's great.

Speaker 2 41:44

I'm always asking why, always ask why. Yeah, yeah, so that's good, all right. Any last words before we sign off.

Speaker 1 41:54

Let me see. Let me just look over my notes real quick. Was there anything from you?

Speaker 2 41:58

No.

Speaker 1 41:59

Hmm.

Speaker 2 42:00

No.

Speaker 1 42:00

I did read that one in four people deal with family estrangement. And now look at us. Both of us are dealing. The two of us on this podcast are dealing with it, but one in four people are dealing with it.

Speaker 2 42:15

Um yeah it's very it's it's. I don't think it's. It happens a lot. Let's put it like that I think so too.

Speaker 1 42:28

Yeah, I mean that's 25 percent of people.

Speaker 2 42:30

And you know, and the last all I've been hearing are horror stories about since the election, horror stories about families breaking up. You know. Right the husband not supporting the wife's views and the husband's disappointed that the wife wasn't supporting it. It's just ridiculous.

Speaker 1 42:52

I'm glad that you brought that up, because I think that the bottom line is the ego and thinking that you're right, and I think that that can go back to and I want to hear your thoughts real quick too. Sure, but, like even in religion, it's like we believe that we have these values and they're right and we can't flex on any of these, like we can't associate with you, accept you, because you don't have the same values as us.

Speaker 2 43:22

Right.

Speaker 1 43:23

And do you think that it's ego driven?

Speaker 2 43:27

Somewhat, think that it's ego driven Somewhat, but I just think people have an affinity to just being in somebody else's business, judging them.

Speaker 2 43:39

Okay, right, and you? You, you gotta get away from judging people. Whatever somebody else's um, experiences and um, the way they're living is really none of your business. Okay, you and nothing you've ever done. You're not the sorry, you're not the perfect person, no, and you've done things. Everybody's done things, everybody's done things. So have some compassion and some emotional intelligence. Just to say you know what, you know, I'm not perfect either. I may not want to rock with that person, but I can listen to them and then this short period of time, I can have a conversation with them and it can be civil, and they can give me their opinion and you know what. I can go off and do whatever I want to. We're not there, we don't do that. We feel like someone has to be in a place of hierarchy and we judge.

Speaker 1 44:50

And that's what.

Speaker 2 44:50

I'm saying Right, and those kind of people just get away from me. Yeah, right.

Speaker 1 44:57

But I think that underneath the judgment is the ego, and I think underneath everything that you just listed is the ego.

Speaker 2 45:03

Is the ego. Yeah, because I'm right, not me what I'm saying Everybody's right, yeah, correct, right, my, because I'm right, not me, but I'm saying correct.

Speaker 1 45:10

My political views are right, my religious views are right. That and I think that, that I don't think that you can have ego and empathy at the same time.

Speaker 2 45:21

Yeah Well.

Speaker 1 45:25

I don't know, so we're going to work on the empathy, yeah, okay, we can work on more work on the empathy. Yeah, okay, we can work on more empathy.

Speaker 2 45:32

All right, yeah, so that's it. We did go down a rabbit hole, didn't?

Speaker 1 45:37

we, we did, we went down and came back up.

Speaker 2 45:41

Okay, all right. That concludes today's episode of Listen Up. Thank you, and we'll catch you next time on Listen Up of Listen Up. Thank you, and we'll catch you next time on Listen Up. For anyone watching this channel, I ask that you please like and subscribe for upcoming videos.