Listen Up with Host Al Neely
Hi, I'm Al Neely. I've spent most of my life asking, " Why do people behave a certain way? Why don't people understand that most everyone wants basically the same thing? Most everyone wants their fundamental need for peace of mind, nourishment, shelter and safety."
What I have learned is that because of an unwillingness to open one's mind to see that some of the people you come in contact with may have those same desires as you do. We prejudge, isolate ourselves, and can be hesitant to interact, and sometimes we can be belligerent towards one another. This is caused by learned behavior that may have repeated itself for generations in our families.
What I hope to do with this podcast is to introduce as many people with as many various cultures, backgrounds, and practices as possible. The thought is that I can help to bring different perspectives by discussing various views from my guests that are willing to talk about their personal experiences.
Hopefully we all will learn something new. We may even learn that most of us share the same desire for our fundamental needs. We may just simply try to obtain it differently.
Sit back, learn, and enjoy!
Listen Up with Host Al Neely
Brotherhood and Basketball: Tommy Long and Roscoe Brown on Norfolk State's Legacy
Two Norfolk State University alumni, Tommy Long and Roscoe Brown, share their journeys from high school to college basketball, highlighting the powerful bonds of mentorship and friendship that formed along the way. They discuss the importance of community involvement and the impactful legacy of their mentor, Coach Fields, encouraging the next generation through shared experiences on and off the court.
• Tommy Long and Roscoe Brown recount their recruitment stories to Norfolk State
• Role of Coach Fields in building relationships among players
• Importance of mentorship in shaping young athletes
• Reflections on personal challenges faced during college
• Ongoing commitment to youth engagement and community service
• Lasting friendships and the legacy of their late teammate, Bob Danridge
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All right, I'd like to welcome you to Listen Up Podcast. I'm Al Neely and today we have a treat. We have a couple fellow Spartans in the house. That's NSU Spartans alumni.
Speaker 1:We have.
Speaker 2:Thomas Tommy Long. He used to play guard for the Norfolk State Spartans and we have one of his mentors and teammates and close friends, Roscoe Brown. And you're a forward. Yes small forward, small forward, okay. So obviously we're about to learn something. I love talking to a former alum, but let's go ahead and get started. But let's go ahead and get started. Tommy, you used to play for the Globetrotters, right?
Speaker 3:Correct.
Speaker 2:And before any of that had taken place, you played basketball at Norfolk State, right, right? So, first of all, neither one of you are from the Norfolk area.
Speaker 3:right, correct, I'm from Durham, north Carolina. Okay.
Speaker 1:Washington DC.
Speaker 2:Okay, so let's talk about how you guys came to become students at Norfolk State. Were you recruited?
Speaker 3:Yes, I was recruited Back in the day Coach Fiz and some of the coaches they didn't have the big budgets like they got in there, right, so they used to recruit together and they recruited by a lot of their former players and whatnot and friends. So that's how I was recruited. One of my friends from Durham Hillside High School had a scholarship at Hampton and transferred to Norfolk State Right, and he was telling Coach Fields about me, somebody that could help the program.
Speaker 3:When was this what time period was this? This was in 1965. Okay, and Coach never saw me or anything Right, but he was just going on the word of a person that come from Durham. He just told him that you know time along, you need to get him so he could help you continue this legacy at Norfolk State. When I, my high school coach brought me to Norfolk State to attend summer school, coach Fields never saw me. But when he saw me he looked like he was a little disappointed because I was shorter than what he thought. The way I played, he thought I was shorter than what he thought. You know the way I played. He thought I was about 6'3", 6'4".
Speaker 2:Right, which back then was a big guard, huh.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because I was averaging about 30.
Speaker 2:Okay, In Durham you were averaging about 30?
Speaker 3:About 30. So when he saw me, where'd you go to school? Hillside High School, okay. So when he saw me he kind of looked at me like that. But throughout the summer he tested me and he saw that I was the real deal. You know what I mean? Yeah, and so during that time Coach Fields would always he would take a former player and attach him to an incoming freshman. So this is how I got connected with Raz Brown, hamp Anderson and eventually Johnny Pep Morris. So Coach Fields had us play three on three Right Hookshot. Grant, myself and Bob Dandruff was playing against Ham Anderson.
Speaker 2:Oh, you played with Bob.
Speaker 3:Dandruff yeah yeah, that was my roommate for four years. Oh okay, all right, and that's that's why I got the three amigos right here, you know.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, Ah.
Speaker 3:I see playing a three-on-three and I was, of course, a freshman checking hemp trying to check me. I like to run off with my mouth and talk trash and Danridge Raz was checking Danridge. And who was that checking, could you?
Speaker 2:check him. Oh, he was a freshman then. Oh, you could.
Speaker 3:Okay, gotcha gotcha, but that's his claim to fame.
Speaker 2:He can push him around because he's a smaller, huh, but Dan just said he learned a lot from Raz.
Speaker 3:Okay right, but anyway, that game was very creative and we got to talking a lot of trash. So he had to try to put me in my place, you know, because I was talking too much to be a freshman. Hemp, you know, had tried to put me in his place. In my place, you know, because I was talking too much to be a freshman, you know, running over my mouth. So as we were playing, in come charles bonaparte who had uh, I think he'd had a surgery or something to his knee, but he, he walked in with his suitcase and stuff how big was, was John?
Speaker 3:He was 6'3". So he came in and he walked to the sideline and he just asked for the basketball Out of bounds there. So he got the basketball and shot a deep three-point shot. That's before the three-point. Then he picked his bags up and walked on back to Coach Phil's office. That's right. Then he picked his bags up and walked on back to Coach Fields' office. So that's how we got met. But Coach Fields had assigned Danitz to Raz and some kind of way over the years Raz and I became attached, I know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've seen you twice, and every time I've seen you, you two have been together. Yeah, I've seen you twice, and every time I've seen you, you two have been together. Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. Oh yeah, it's great to have a friendship like that, right? So how did you get recruited?
Speaker 1:Well, I went to Eastern High School in Washington DC, okay, and I played both football and basketball. I played both football and basketball. So a contingency of coaches from Norfolk came up to because we were champions in the DC area for four consecutive years. In football I was a quarterback, you know. Oh, really, yeah, I was the first black quarterback, first at Eastern High but we won four consecutive public high school championships. So when they came up and you know, of course, talked to all the athletes there, I was first identified as somebody they might want for football. But you know, I wound up going to Norfolk State and just playing basketball and so that's how I got to Norfolk State that was in 1960.
Speaker 2:How were they at basketball? Just curious because I know when I was coming along they were really good when I was there. Were they good at football when you were there?
Speaker 1:No, they were average at football, okay, you know, but they were beginning to build the basketball program.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, the basketball.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but they had some outstanding football players though. Yeah, you know. Yeah, a couple of guys went pro yeah.
Speaker 1:Kenny Reeves went to the.
Speaker 3:Atlanta.
Speaker 1:Falcons and did real well. He was a starting defensive back there. We've had a few others Don Porter, don Porter and the other receiver, ray Jarvis. Yeah, ray Jarvis From the Detroit Lions. Yeah, right, I remember Remember Ray Jarvis. Yeah, ray Jarvis, right, I remember.
Speaker 2:Ray yeah.
Speaker 1:So that's kind of how I got there. Now, coach Fields wasn't there when I arrived Happened. I was with roommates and this was in 1960. Norfolk State didn't have any dormitories Quite a difference from the way it is now Right. So we stayed in private homes, you know, in the community and um and and that was pretty much it. You know, uh, coach turpin, john turpin, was the coach then in norfolk state and if he has didn't come until 65, yeah, 60 60, no no 62.
Speaker 1:No well, I was on them two years. Yeah, yeah, 62, 62.
Speaker 3:So he was there for tommy and them when they came in as freshmen and see a lot of people don't know this history, but I wrote a book called the Three Amigos Okay, and it tells the history of Hillside basketball program.
Speaker 2:Okay, so that book. I think I have a bunch of books. This is the.
Speaker 1:Three Amigos basketball program Okay.
Speaker 2:So that book? Uh, yeah, I think I I have a bunch of books. Uh, this is the three amigos. It's uh Bob dandruff, charles Bonaparte and Tommy Hawk, long Right, right. So what have outside of Norfolk state would well, what other things do you guys have in common, because you said you're the three amigos?
Speaker 3:Right? Well, we're like brothers and Bonaparte had passed, and so this whole thing is about him. As far as I'm concerned, the legacy Okay. Our legacy, and the whole thing is about not letting him be forgotten and some of these other former players.
Speaker 2:Right, this is a guy with no range.
Speaker 3:He could just shoot for me Anywhere, that's right.
Speaker 2:Just okay, Steph Curry.
Speaker 3:That's right and he had. He was special. He was the type outstanding player on the court. He had a tenacious attitude, right, and then everybody loved him. When he walked in a room, you know, he got all the attention. He was just a great guy Great, and I miss him so much. I used to work and live up in Northern Virginia and I had to travel through Richmond to get to Durham, you know, and it was hard for me to go through Richmond without crying, you know, during that time you know that's how much he meant. He was like a brother to me, and so was Danridge, bob Danridge, you know.
Speaker 2:So why do you feel like you guys were all so close? What was the reason for that Roscoe? What was it? Well, I think, coach Fierce, you kind of started it with him, right Coach?
Speaker 1:Fierce kind of you know, connected us together, as he said, right, and part of his whole thing was us being family, right, and being close to one another, right, and we just maintained that relationship over the years, dandridge reminded me so much in that pickup game that Tommy was talking about, of a homebound boy of mine by the name of Jerry Chambers.
Speaker 1:You may or may not have heard of him, no, but he went to high school with me. He was a little behind me but he was the most valuable player in the NCAA finals. You might remember Texas Western yeah, playing Duke. No, not Duke Kentucky.
Speaker 2:That was for the championship. That was for the championship, pat Riley, right, yeah, pat Riley Duke.
Speaker 1:Kentucky. That was for the championship, that was for the championship. Pat Riley, right he was. Yeah, yeah, Pat Riley was with Kentucky.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they did a movie about that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they did a movie about it. Right, Jerry Chambers was the most valuable player of that tournament. He played for the University of Utah. The fouls were Utah, University of Utah, Texas Western, Duke and Kentucky. And Kentucky was rated number one in the country, but, as you know, Texas Western beat them and Jerry Chambers set a record. He was also the number one draft choice for the Lakers that year. Well, he reminded me so much of Dandridge, his length and all of that. In fact, I invited Bob to DC and we actually had the opportunity to play against him. We played all day. He met John Thompson. That was during my era.
Speaker 2:Oh, you played against John Thompson too.
Speaker 1:We were in high school at the same time. Okay, he played on the same summer league team. He was with Archbishop Carroll, but Dandridge did very well as a freshman. In fact, I came back and told Ernest Fierce that this would be his starting forward, you know, because he played that well against him as a freshman. We played all day, you know, two on two on all the courts in DC, austin, carr, just a number of ballplayers, and Bob was really showing his potential. Then, of course, he went on.
Speaker 2:And the next time they saw each other was in. Well, you just named three guys, that just went on, and they're great. Yeah, thompson and Austin Carter, tommy Long.
Speaker 1:Those are great guys DC guys, david Bing, all of them doing my hair Really.
Speaker 3:I didn't know you. Yeah, Bing was two years behind me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, yeah he went to Spangon same school as Elton Bell, but anyway they came down for a tournament later. Tom and them were juniors then and we brought a team down from DC and they played very well against them. And of course, the next time, bob, as we call him Pick I gave him that nickname too Okay, Pick Danvish was in the NBA and the pros when they met each other then. But that relationship that we had has carried over and the business. Tommy and I have done a number of things together, working with different cities and two companies that I was CEO of, youth Services Corporation, and Concerning Athletes in Action. It's all about working with kids and youth and that kind of thing, and Tommy's always been a guy to look forward to and still is doing those things on an ongoing basis. So that was the essence of our relationship.
Speaker 2:Right. So, coach, put you guys together, you mentor, you became friends. So it kind of, when you look at it from that perspective, it's just difficult to let your brother down right so, and you know even basketball court in life, you guys, you know if you need somebody to help you carry any kind of burden or whatever, I guess you have always been there for one another.
Speaker 3:When my mother passed, all of them was there. I was inducted into the Hall of Fame at Hillside and Danridge was out of town somewhere and my wife called him and told him that I was being inducted. My brother couldn't attend and my wife called him and told him that I was being inducted. My brother couldn't attend and my mother was real sick. Dennis dropped what he was doing and he got there. That's the kind of relationship we've had and then went for.
Speaker 3:But my mentor, depending on what my situation, I know exactly who to call and who to talk to See. If I want somebody just to listen to me and get just a straight answer, I call Johnny Pep Morris, and then if I want some, just some advice, good advice you know family and that kind of stuff I call Hemp Anderson. Then if we just having a good time and being, just enjoying one another and this and that, I call my man, roscoe Brown. So all of them, these guys encourage me, they motivate me to I don't care what I do, they make a big deal out of it. They are the reason that I've written 17 books. And then I'm very active in the community. I work with Wally Jones, former Philadelphia 76er, and I got people. I worked all the way down in Florida.
Speaker 3:My books are down there Kids are reading my books in their program. And so one person told me see, you're the only op I've seen that don't make no money, see, and I haven't sold a lot of books. I give a lot of those books away. And see, I got a mission, a purpose. Okay, away. And see, I got a mission, a purpose. And my purpose is to get in this community and try to be influential and make a difference with some of these youth. I know what it takes Because I worked 32 years in correction.
Speaker 3:I sat down and talked to serial killers, rapists, robbers you know all kind of people. And then I worked 20 years in residential service with youth. So I know the connection between youth and adults getting involved in crime, youth and adults getting involved in crime. And what we see now is a lot of young folks you know 12 and 14, 15, committing a lot of these crimes. And that's because we as responsible adults, politicians and whatnot, we're so concerned about getting all these companies in and giving them money.
Speaker 3:We're forgetting our communities and thinking about our children. You notice kids now. They don't come out into the playground and recreation centers, right, they're at home, you know, on their cell phones and stuff. So I grew up in a neighborhood in my block. It was two people in my block that had a television and I used to have to knock on somebody's door to watch the wide world of sports which the Harlem Globetrotters came on once a year. So once I watched then I would go to the basketball courts down the street and try to imitate some of the stuff that I saw. Now these kids now they look at the cell phones and all that foolishness and then they go out in the community and try to imitate some of the stuff that they see.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:So they don't have anything to look forward to, and it's part of the problem. That's why we need things like the Concerned Athletes in Action. Right In Durham we had a program called the Hawks Helping All Willing Kids Succeed, where concerned adults stick with the kids year-round. They go, take them to church, check on them in the school, take them out to eat and stuff like that to motivate and encourage them Right.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, one of the things I think probably would really be. I don't know how much you've done it, but, like Roscoe, has been your mentor, for I don't know how old you are you are now, but since you were a freshman in college, Right, right.
Speaker 2:So they don't have those relationships anymore. So there's nobody that they have those relationships with. That go. Hey, you know it's probably not a good idea for you to go over there and do that in that neighborhood, you know. So he's probably like been a big brother to you. So you seem like you were pretty wild when you got to North State.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was.
Speaker 3:He had a little hard yeah. But see those guys right today, right, if I step out of line, they'll tell me yeah, but you know what? But see those guys right today. If I step out of line, they'll tell me yeah.
Speaker 2:But see, that's why, yeah, that's why you have success.
Speaker 3:That's right, they'll tell me. And if I write something, see, the way I start writing is, see, I'm a veteran, right, I'm a 100% disabled veteran and I've suffered from a number of issues. So my therapist, psychiatrist, told me he said and I was talking, we used to meet twice a week. He said you got a story to tell you need to write. So that's how I started writing. And then I wrote one book and these guys he always talking about how I save material, you know, and I could just pull stuff and start writing and they'd just tell me hey, that's great, keep it up. You'd be surprised how many former basketball players in Norfolk State have written me and told me thank you for including them in these books because nobody knew about it. Yeah, yeah, and they appreciate that.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, we're naming a bunch of people that I grew up watching and I had no idea that you guys knew any of them guys.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 2:I mean to the point where you probably can pick up a phone call and go pick up the phone and say, hey, and Wally Jones is an example of that.
Speaker 1:He worked very closely with Wally out of Philadelphia, yes, and he's been an integral part of the programs that we've done, you know, over the years, you know.
Speaker 2:What is he?
Speaker 3:doing now.
Speaker 1:Same kind of thing. Okay, what is he doing now? Same kind of thing Outstanding. Yeah, he's from Philly, he lives in Florida, his home is in Florida but he works all over in Richmond. He does a lot of stuff. Yeah, and he's lived in Virginia in our community, okay For a while, and I think Bob Danridge brought him to Virginia, to Norfolk, and he wound up staying there for three years. They played together in Milwaukee and O'Reilly played back with Will Chamberlain 76ers, yeah, who went to school with my sister?
Speaker 2:Did he Overbrook? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So he was traded to Milwaukee and that's where Dandridge was and so they played together there and he actually Bob brought him to Virginia and he really took to us in Norfolk and we kind of crafted programs together and did a lot of things. But Tommy has done a number of things professionally that are kind of unique too Right, I want to point out with his experience in working in many of the correctional centers. Southampton County was the initial place that he had worked and he, as head of the athletic department there, managed to convince the administration to allow him to take some of the inmates from the basketball team out into the community they played in tournaments and that had not been done before and to take them various places in the community.
Speaker 1:And all that was done without incident and of course he you know he received a number of accolades for that and it was one of the things that helped to project his involvement in other correctional centers. The way it worked, Gotcha, that kind of thing went on yeah.
Speaker 2:Getting back, you said you were vetting. When did you serve?
Speaker 3:And I got drafted. That's the story, let me tell you. Let me tell you I got drafted in 1971. I had taken a break during the summer at the Globetrotters so we out here having fun and a friend of mine called me said the FBI had stopped by my mother's house and said I was a draft dodger. So right during that time Coach Fields had been selected as the first Selected Service Director of the state of Virginia Black Selected Service Director. So I said well, let me go to Coach Fields, because every time I have a problem I go to Coach Fields. He solved the problem. I said, coach, I got a problem. I said I got this call and they said I'm a draft dodger, I haven't received a notice or anything. They said I'm a draft dodger, I haven't received a notice in. And then you say I'm a draft dodger, fbi looking for me. He said Hawk, boy, don't worry, this is he used boy like boy, don't worry about it. I got you, let me go check it out. About an hour later he called me. He said Hawk, go turn yourself in, coach. I thought you were going to, yeah.
Speaker 3:So I went to the FBI and turned myself in and they ran my name through the computer and they didn't really have anything on me. But they asked me, well, why? And I told them they said you need to go back to Durham and turn yourself in to the Selective Service Board. And I went there and the lady told me that they had sent this greetings letter and they have it. They showed me the letter and she said you know you have a choice. You could select one of these armed forces branches or you can possibly look at five years in the penitentiary. I said ma'am, where do you want me to go?
Speaker 3:About two weeks I was gone, wow. And then I went in the military and I led I was at Fort Jackson, I led them to the Third Army Tournament. I was MVP, I was averaging about 40, 50. Then I got a letter from the Pentagon. They flew me to Presidio, california, to try out for the All-Army Team. I made that. We won the Inter-Service Championship. Then I went back to Leavenworth. I made that. We won the inter-service championship and then I went back to Leavenworth where I was stationed. And then the Pentagon wrote me again, said they wanted me to try out for the all armed forces team.
Speaker 2:How much fighting did you do, Tommy? No fighting.
Speaker 3:Try to guard a 6.84. That's about it. But that's what Dan would say. But I was in hostile territory. Then I made the all-arm forces team and I played in the world games and that's when you compete against all the military teams around the world. And when I was in Europe we was in hostile areas. We had snipers and people bombing up installations, you know, trying to run the Americans out so I mean, that's the kind of stuff that you know.
Speaker 3:They say you didn't fight but if you ever thought about walking about two blocks with no weapons and just walking to go to a gym with all these people around you and you don't know who's out there. It can be fearful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you want to tell them about those other later coaches.
Speaker 1:You want to tell them about those other later coaches?
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, Hal Fisher was a prominent Pan American Games coach and then Coach K at Duke Krasinski. Yeah, yeah, he was out there. He was the assistant coach. He couldn't make the team. He tried out for the team but he couldn't make it, so they made was the assistant coach. He couldn't make the team. He tried out for the team but he couldn't make it, so they made him the assistant. I don't like to tell that story because I mentioned that in Durham and you know what happened. The newspaper was interviewing me and I mentioned the fact that Coach K couldn't make the team and this, and that you know what they did with my story. They put it in a little paper and I guess the article was about that big. So I don't like to talk about Coach K.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry he did okay, coaching, yeah, I mean, he's one of the best coaches ever and the coach from San.
Speaker 1:Antonio.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Popovich.
Speaker 3:Yeah, all of them was out. He's one of the best coaches ever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Wow. So let's talk about your college career. So so Did you start when you were a freshman?
Speaker 3:Well, I didn't start, but I played more than any Bonaparte or Danridge.
Speaker 2:So you came off the bench six-man.
Speaker 3:I was the sixth man, and the thing is Did you get invited to get some scoring going? Well, Clarence Burner was in front of me, which I thought I had better skills.
Speaker 2:But Coach Fields, I have a hard time believing that you don't think most people have better skills than you.
Speaker 3:Is that about right, oscar? But you know what I'm going to tell you. I had to make a decision. What is that? Clarence Burner had something that Coach Fields required in each man that played that position fourth-man position. He was tenacious, hard-nosed defensive player.
Speaker 2:He was a leader.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I had to sit back Instead of griping about not playing. I sat back and learned what it takes to be in that position and lead that team Right, and I learned a lot through him and eventually I had the opportunity to start Now. This was my junior year, because I was two years behind Clarence Burner my junior year. Everybody know me know that I'm tenacious. I check a man all the way to the bathroom and when he come out I pick him up. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:All right, so you were good at playing defense too.
Speaker 3:I was an excellent defensive player. I set an example, I was a leader.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:That's why I was in that coach, because if y'all come in college averaging all these points and the coach take me and put me in a position where I distribute the ball, not shoot it, but distribute it to damage boner part and hook, shot, grant and pop hits and all of them. So I took that not as a challenge, but I said you know, this is one way that I can play.
Speaker 2:It's another opportunity for you to get better and grow. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:And that's exactly what I did and I credit Coach Fields to a lot of it. You know, sometimes you kind of wonder, you know, say well, do he like me? But Coach cared a lot about all his players and he loved Danridge and Bonaparte and I got a kick out of when I heard him get on them sometimes. You know, one time we were coming to practice and Bonaparte and Danridge, they forgot they was at Norfolk State. They wanted a car, they needed somebody to get around. Really, coach Field said where do you think you're at? You know UCLA or somewhere? You better go somewhere and sit down.
Speaker 2:Transportation. Well, you know, they were watching everybody else and they were thinking they'd be getting to do it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but Coach Fields was a great influence on all of us. See everybody on that team. You had a couple of guys that had mother and father upbringing, but somebody like me. I just that had mother and father upbringing, but somebody like me. I just had my mother, a single parent, oh really. And I was one of those kids that they said it wasn't going to be the S word.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And then I was the top player in the state with a few scholarships, and the high school counselor told me college is not for everybody. But what had happened? See, I'm one of those players that I held all this in, and when I competed against you it came out Right. So I used that as a driving force to, you know, to be all I can be. You know, my mother did not raise a quitter or somebody to give up Right?
Speaker 2:Do you mind if we talk about that a little bit? Yeah, so Roscoe was your father not home with you.
Speaker 1:Yes, he was Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my father Was this your entire life, tommy. He was not around. I never knew my father. Yeah, my father Was this your entire life, tommy, he was not around.
Speaker 3:I never knew my father.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I never knew my grandparents Nobody Ain't nobody but my mother, and she was great, you know.
Speaker 2:And you have aunts and uncles and you have aunts and uncles.
Speaker 3:I had aunts and uncles, but, um, I was raised in a peculiar situation. I was see, this is something you ever heard of, a splohouse, a, what a splohouse. Well, I've had to ask you okay a splohouse is a house where they sold liquor and drinks, and you know, you know. So I was raised in a house similar to that for a couple of years with my aunt. I saw a lot of stuff and I heard a lot, and that's why, okay, go ahead.
Speaker 2:It's difficult, I understand, but I don't think a lot of people understand during that time period what you had to do when you're in that situation. You're that poor, you're that marginalized, the stuff that you had to do to survive, Right. So you were exposed to a lot of those things, but your, your family, was just trying to survive right, trying to survive.
Speaker 3:My family ran a liquor store and my family was a known—see. I come from something you call the country outside of the city. You know they call it a country and my family had liquor stores and what they would do, they'd make the city. You know they call it a country and my family had liquor still and what they would do, they make the liquor and my uncles would transport it to the city, to different splow houses.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:And my aunt. She had a splow house and so I just was exposed to a whole lot of stuff and from that I think it helped me. In a sense it always does help you, it does help you.
Speaker 2:People don't realize it. It depends on how you internalize it, but it taught you to survive.
Speaker 3:Right and decision making. But it taught you to survive Right and then in decision-making and I have a great respect, see my mother always taught me. She said you treat people the way you want to be treated. And this is where I wrote about six children books and all of them are centered around the 10 little big words and the biggest word is respect and be responsible and that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:Gotcha Okay, so you get to college. You didn't really start until your junior year.
Speaker 3:Well, my junior year I got hurt. That was the year I was supposed to start.
Speaker 2:You were a senior that year, right? No, I had finished.
Speaker 3:He had finished, oh okay, that's the year that Pee Wee Kirkland came. Oh, okay, yeah, See, Pee Wee came in my junior year and you know, of course, Kirkland everybody heard him said he was a legend in New York and that kind of stuff and but you know, I always thought that I didn't take a backseat to anybody, and so I practice.
Speaker 2:That's what that background taught you. That's right. It had to be tough, it had to be tough, so I played hard in a game and practice Right.
Speaker 3:So what had happened? One night in practice, I stole a ball that somebody tried to pass to Peewee. I intercepted and I drove in to jam the ball. And McKinley he was about 6'6", 6'7" he caught me in the air. He didn't block my shot, but our bodies collided and I flipped and came down and I broke my arm and my ribs. Oh, and that's how Pee Wee Kirkland was started. Everybody said Pee Wee is a legend and I don't want to brag anything but Pee Wee would have never started if I hadn't broke my arm. You know what I mean?
Speaker 2:yeah, so, but uh, so you did play your senior year.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I started and we led the nation in scoring. Uh, it was a backcourt. It was a you and me and bonaparte okay, me and Bonaparte Okay, and Bonaparte averages about probably about 26. Dandridge averages 32. I average about 15. 32 a game, yeah.
Speaker 1:We played him In college y'all were running up 100 points a game yeah 106.
Speaker 2:For four years we averaged 100. Really, y'all were that good. For four years we averaged 100 points a game.
Speaker 3:Yeah, 106. For four years we averaged 100 points. Really, y'all were that good. For four years we averaged 100 points a game. And then in 1968, 69, we averaged I think it was 106, 109 a game Played in Madison Square Garden.
Speaker 2:Did you start?
Speaker 1:No, well, I started some. Okay, you came. You came off the no, but as a freshman I was six man and then I was out of school the next year and then the following year I came back and uh, I started at some point every year I was there but uh, you know how much were you having coming off the bench average?
Speaker 2:about seven, eight, you know coming off the bench?
Speaker 1:yeah, coming off the bench. I averaged about seven, eight, you know. Coming off the bench, yeah, coming off the bench, I mean that's not, that's knowledge, right yeah.
Speaker 3:But everybody it's different. Everybody on our team was starting. Five was in double figures.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:You're at a Willis-Reed right, of course, okay. Willis-reed was. The Knicks was playing against the Philadelphia 76ers. Willis Reed was bragging about he had called around all these black colleges where nobody played gambling. So he messed up and called Ernie D Fields from Norfolk State. He said, coach, you mean to tell me you've been looking for somebody and you didn't ask me. We'll play you, we'll play your team up there. So we played Northwest State played Gremlin before in exhibition before the.
Speaker 3:Knicks and the Phoenix Sun. So they had a 7 footer, 2-6-7 all Americans 3 guard, all American. And so they had a seven-footer, 2-6-7 All-Americans, a 6-3 guard All-American, and another guard. Now the tallest man on our team was Danis. During the time because Al Scott had just got drafted in the military. He about 6'7 back then, mm-hmm, about 6'6", 6'7", mm-hmm.
Speaker 3:When they threw that ball up in the air we jumped on Grambling from the jump street. There were about 20,000 people in there hollering and screaming Look here. They ain't never seen nothing like the show that we put on up there that night. Dan has got, I think he hit 34. And Bone hit about 30. I had 19 points and about 19 assists. You know with a bad leg because I played the night before at Hampton and pulled a hamstring. So I was dragging this leg like this here and Coach Fields had to take me. He asked me before the game could I go? I said, coach, I ain't going to miss this game for nothing. So look, we were rambling out. So after the game one of the reporters came to Coach Fields and said man, y'all really ran that break that night. Coach said no, we didn't run, said the pony was hurt. He was talking about me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, if I would have 30, I'd kiss him.
Speaker 3:Huh, yeah, yeah. Said the pony was hurt. Said we didn't run that break the way we normally run at night, but all of them pro scouts was there and it was about 20, like it was about 20,000 people. Some of them even got up and started leaving the ring. I said why are you leaving? He said ain't no.
