Listen Up with Host Al Neely
Hi, I'm Al Neely. I've spent most of my life asking, " Why do people behave a certain way? Why don't people understand that most everyone wants basically the same thing? Most everyone wants their fundamental need for peace of mind, nourishment, shelter and safety."
What I have learned is that because of an unwillingness to open one's mind to see that some of the people you come in contact with may have those same desires as you do. We prejudge, isolate ourselves, and can be hesitant to interact, and sometimes we can be belligerent towards one another. This is caused by learned behavior that may have repeated itself for generations in our families.
What I hope to do with this podcast is to introduce as many people with as many various cultures, backgrounds, and practices as possible. The thought is that I can help to bring different perspectives by discussing various views from my guests that are willing to talk about their personal experiences.
Hopefully we all will learn something new. We may even learn that most of us share the same desire for our fundamental needs. We may just simply try to obtain it differently.
Sit back, learn, and enjoy!
Listen Up with Host Al Neely
Human Trafficking: The Hidden Crisis in Virginia
Patrick McKenna pulls back the curtain on America's hidden human trafficking epidemic, revealing how this modern form of slavery operates within our own communities. As an attorney with over 35 years of experience and the Director of the Virginian Coalition Against Human Trafficking, McKenna provides eye-opening insights into why Virginia has become what he calls "a perfect storm" for trafficking operations—with its international airports, large ports, military presence, and extensive tourism creating ideal conditions for exploitation.
The conversation shatters common misconceptions about who becomes trafficked. McKenna shares the story of a licensed clinical social worker with a master's degree who fell into trafficking through an abusive relationship, demonstrating that education and status offer no protection against sophisticated predators. While young people, LGBTQ+ youth, and foster care children face heightened vulnerability, McKenna emphasizes that traffickers are "master manipulators" who exploit any vulnerability they find—or create one where none exists.
Most powerful is McKenna's explanation of how survivors become trapped in a legal system that punishes them for crimes they were forced to commit. Criminal records for prostitution or other offenses effectively bar survivors from housing, education, employment, and even victim services. His coalition's legislative work to implement "vacatur" laws allows these convictions to be removed, giving survivors a genuine chance at freedom. McKenna also provides practical guidance for recognizing trafficking situations, from the online grooming of teens to labor exploitation in sales crews, construction, and hospitality.
Whether you're a parent concerned about your child's online safety, a professional working with vulnerable populations, or simply a concerned citizen, this episode equips you with the knowledge to recognize trafficking and take action. As McKenna powerfully states, "No one can do everything, but everybody can do something." Listen now to discover how your awareness could help break the chains of modern slavery.
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Hello everyone, I'm Al Neely with Listen Up Podcast and today we have Patrick J McKenna of Patrick J McKenna Esquire. Patrick is the director of the Virginian Coalition Against Human Trafficking.
Speaker 2:And just say hello to everybody. Hey, everybody, and thanks for having me today.
Speaker 1:I appreciate it, awesome you have been an attorney in this area and one of your main focuses has been human trafficking.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the last 14 years, yeah, I've been working in that area.
Speaker 1:I've been practicing as an attorney for 35 plus years, okay, so I thought it was very interesting. When I met you, we were talking, we were at a function, and then it's always been something that's been in the back of my mind. You hear a lot about human trafficking. Give me an idea of the statistics of what is like in Virginia as far as the percentage of people that are being human trafficked in Virginia.
Speaker 2:That's a great question, and statistics is often what people want to hear or know about. There's a lot of big numbers floating around what's happening around the world, but I'll tell you this whatever the numbers are, they're too low, really. So people calling the National Anti-Human Trafficking Hotline and reporting cases. So we've typically run in there, which makes sense given the fact that Virginia is kind of like the perfect storm. We have international airports here in three different cities, we have the two large ports, we have DC area, northern Virginia, we've got the Tidewater area where there's all kinds of tourism and such. So it's just military, large military presence, uh, transients. So the matter of it wasn't happening on the interstates throw those in there, right. So the fact of the matter is, if it wasn't happening here, it'd be a miracle, or or that we were so doing our job as citizens that traffickers were afraid to come here because they'd be outed and be prosecuted.
Speaker 1:Wow, I would see who are the targets for a Tootman trafficking. Who exactly would you say? What is the profile most likely?
Speaker 2:That's another good, great, great question. The fact of the matter is it could be anybody.
Speaker 1:Yeah question.
Speaker 2:The fact of the matter is it could be anybody.
Speaker 2:I've been, I mentioned, you've been in this space for a long time, and we had one group that we're working with where one of the a survivor was actually had her master's degree in social work, she was a licensed clinical social worker, got into an abusive relationship and ended up being trafficked out of that relationship. So it can. It's not a matter of education or breeding or money or anything else. It's more a matter of traffickers exploiting vulnerability. So, though, I would say that there are certain populations that may tend to be a little more vulnerable than others, like young people you know, that's a target age like 10 years old up to second year of college particularly particularly vulnerable young men or women identifying as part of the LGBTQ arena area, those kids who are in foster care, particularly vulnerable for a number of different reasons, tied up with just the whole foster care system itself. So those probably are the key areas, but again, like I said, it can happen pretty much to anybody okay, um, give me a the definition of trafficking, can you?
Speaker 1:can you describe exactly what it is?
Speaker 2:well, let me keep it to this, because there's the federal definition, and then virginia, kind of within different code sections, has, uh, you know, some things that might be almost akin to a definition, but the bottom line is this exploitation of vulnerability for somebody's profit, whether somebody's being sold for sexual services, or whether they're being exploited for their labor, whether they're being exploited for a body parts you know some other nefarious activity. There's some level of exploitation involved, and so and then there's well, how does the exploitation go about? Well, it could be by fraud, somebody making you a promise. You're a young person online, you're looking to know whether you're, you know how you're, whether you're feeling beautiful, or you just had a fight with your parents or your boyfriend, and you get on there, start venting on the internet and all of a sudden, somebody's trolling and they're looking for somebody who's vulnerable. Start up that conversation. Or it could be you're looking for another opportunity. You're coming from another country or even within this country, looking for a better opportunity, and you see this sign posted or this advertisement about modeling agency or recording contract or sales opportunity.
Speaker 2:The number two way, at least statistically used to be, was the number two way in which young people are trafficked is through traveling sales crews and so that young person coming to your door who is selling the magazine or selling the stuff out of you know that the bin you know or approaches you in a Walmart parking lot trying to sell you could be being trafficked. Now I'm not saying that's all the case and that every you know magazine scholarship program is out there exploiting people, but it isn't a way which it happens. So against exploitation, then fraud, force or some sort of coercion, you threaten somebody's family member. I was on the phone with a survivor yesterday we're trying to get rid of the record cleared and she was trying to get away but he knew where their family was and he was threatening the family. You don't do what I want, I'll go. I'll go hurt your family. So, and those are the chains you really can't see. You know those kinds of things that hold people there though they want to get out.
Speaker 1:Right, so the the reason I asked you that is because I think people in in community, a lot of people, tend to think of it as just one thing, from a sexual standpoint. So I thought of some of the things, but you even went farther, like I never thought it would have been through, like sales organization or even scams online. Never thought I'd think about that. Yeah, so has the internet made the advent of the internet made it more easy to?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Easy and worse. Yeah, yeah, the pandemic, particularly with kids being home.
Speaker 1:You started what 15, how many years ago?
Speaker 2:Probably 2010.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, so Okay. So what changes have you seen?
Speaker 2:Well, particularly because of the online ability to potentially groom and lure people in online, yeah, and ultimately it lends itself to all kinds of things. Excuse me so, but just with more young people being online, with not necessarily understanding just how vulnerable they are to things and the information they're putting out there, that basically gets excluded because those who are trafficking people are master manipulators. So, whatever the need is, in fact, I heard one pimp was quoted saying you know I exploit a need and if I don't see a need, I heard one pimp quoted saying you know I exploit a need and if I don't see a need, I create one so I can exploit it. So it's all about that. It comes back to that exploitation. You know what's the dream? So having young people so much online, and particularly exacerbated by the pandemic when it increased dramatically, it just created an atmosphere where more people could be exploited. For that, you know, for whatever the reason was, and um, and just because and you know it goes back to sometimes we are seeing more now, because we know what to look for, more now, okay, so with training and education, law enforcement is getting better trained.
Speaker 2:Other organizations that see traffickers as kind of like first responders, like health care systems, like 80-something percent of survivors that are being commercially sexually exploited end up at some point, during their exploitation, in an emergency room in a hospital. Now, for many years there was not the awareness, there was no training. Now Virginia requires training for doctors and such. They have to actually complete a human trafficking training so that they can recognize the signs, they know how to interface with a survivor, they know what to do if they think exploitation is going on. So we're seeing more and more of that, that training in these different spheres. Just to give you an example of that, trying to get too far afield, part of the organizations I've been involved with created a Hampton Roads Coalition, which has since been supplanted by a task force.
Speaker 2:But we started trying to share statistics of you know what was happening, what were we seeing within our different spheres, and one of the entities was Children's Hospital of the King's Daughter, and so they deal with child abuse cases and stuff like that. And when we started with the statistics they said well, we're not seeing any child, we're seeing child abuse victims, but we're not seeing any trafficking victims. Then the next year they said they saw four. Now, meanwhile, law enforcement often was the ones that were bringing them right. So they also were saying well, we're seeing adults being trafficked, we're not seeing any children being trafficked. Is that because they couldn't identify it? That's the thing.
Speaker 2:So as the training got better as their, they uh the hospital setting, they learned how to more, better uh conduct those forensic interviews and such that four went to 12 the next year and that 12 went to 70 plus the following year after that. Wow, so in one, in one sense, we're seeing more, but we've gotten better at identifying and then putting this survivor in a place where she feels like she can disclose. Because, as one survivor said to me, he said you know, if we disclose, we're putting our lives in your hands. Are you going to be able to protect me if I disclose In fact, yeah, so that's a huge issue Are you gonna be able to protect my family? So when they make that disclosure, you need to be able to feel safe and feel like the people they're talking to really have their back, have their best interests in mind, are really there to help them.
Speaker 1:Interesting. So the Virginia Coalition for Human Trafficking. You've probably gone over it, but exactly what does that do? Exactly what you're talking about, or can?
Speaker 2:you elaborate on it more? Yeah, so the coalition's a little bit different entity. I'm also involved in a nonprofit called Just Free International, which provides services legal services to survivors, and there are a bunch of other organizations in this area that make great progress, like Samaritan House and Safe Harbor Just a bunch of areas. Virginia has developed quite a few resources, but the coalition itself is focused on policy and legislation. There's a lot of. We needed to improve laws related to our legislation.
Speaker 2:When I first got involved back 2010, 2011, virginia was one of the dirty dozen. We were one of the 12 worst states in the United States regarding our laws related to human trafficking and how we treated survivors and how we dealt with minors and such, and so we convened the coalition, convened a bunch of stakeholders together national groups, virginia interns and said, ok, what do we do to change this? And we began working on identifying policy initiatives that would help change the narrative, that would help identify survivors, would help get resources, help with training and it's been a battle at times, but that's what our focus, and we're a C4, so we can lobby as much as we want and not jeopardize our status, which is a benefit to C3s, which have limitations on how much they can lobby for bills and such. So we basically can be their voice related to the issues they're facing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so maybe what you're talking about is probably a question I'm about to ask you. So I saw where you were assisted with several pieces of legislation. Can you talk about HB 2133? Exactly what is that?
Speaker 2:Okay. So, if I remember the bill number correctly and the year, that was an effort to. Oftentimes so oftentimes in Virginia, unfortunately, it's still going on, depending upon the level of training with the law enforcement prosecutors Survivors are being arrested for criminal activity that they're forced to do. For example, they're being prostituted, but they're getting arrested for prostitution and it's not. It's not, they're being pushed through the system and basically giving these criminal convictions which end up hurting them.
Speaker 2:And it goes beyond prostitution. It's maybe forced to steal, to carry drugs, to, uh, to recruit other people, um, into what they call the life as far as the commercial sexual area, and so, um, and they're getting these criminal convictions which basically effectively keep them from being able to move forward with finding resources. Because if you have felonies on your record, you're cut off from educational benefits, you're cut off from housing, you're cut off from just so many resources including like victim resources that are available in Virginia Because you have these criminal convictions and so, yeah, you're a victim, but you also have this criminal charge and therefore you can't get any resources, and so it keeps you perpetually stuck and vulnerable to being re-trafficked or going out and trying to sell yourself because you don't feel like you have any other choice. And then once you're out there selling yourself, invariably you end up getting roped in. Somebody else will end up trafficking you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because you have no place to go.
Speaker 2:Right. So the law that the bill you're referring to was our attempt to get the ability for a survivor to go into court and show that she did not commit that prostitution charge willingly, and therefore have it not only just erased, race from a record, but a finding that it's called vacator, which is simply as we vacate the criminal conviction. You shouldn't have been convicted in the first place, you didn't have what they call the criminal mindset and you were forced to do this and therefore we're going to wipe out the charge. We're going to find you not guilty, essentially by vacating it and then wipe out the charge so it's no longer, uh, available to be used or found out as far as you're concerned, but very, very limited that bill. We had a much broader bill in mind and ended up with just prostitution.
Speaker 1:After you, you explain that. You know, I go back decades when I was a child. You, when I was a younger person. You never thought I was a younger person, you never thought about, um. You was like, well, why can't that person just go change their circumstances in life? Right, but that would explain it. If you have all these charges and you can get housing, you can get a job, how are you going to change those circumstances? Right, and then, lots of times, how are you going to change those circumstances? Right, and then lots of times. Based on what we're finding out now, because of your mental state or your emotional state, you're forced into these situations. So the other one that I wanted to ask you about was 2234, the HB. Two, two, three, four.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm not sure. If I remember exactly, there were two bills that were cause. Every year there's a new bill numbers and some overlap, but the so one along with the vacator. We also sought to try to help survivors on the front end with what we call an affirmative defense. An affirmative defense A what An affirmative defense? Okay, so when a person's charged to be able to go into court and say I did not do this willingly, I was forced to do it and be able to make that showing, yeah, okay, you need it on both ends because oftentimes the survivor doesn't even understand their own victimization. They're so brainwashed Right At that that this was their voluntary choice.
Speaker 2:It's very much like if you're familiar with domestic violence victims. So I call human trafficking survivors domestic violence victims on steroids. They not only have the same control and abuse power and control issues that the trafficker or the perpetrators using, but they may also have then, substance abuse issues because they're trying to self-medicate, being raped 15 to 29 times a night because, contrary to popular opinion, they're not doing this voluntarily. So, um, and then they have rape trauma because they're not doing this voluntarily. They're not, you know, they're not volunteering to to be raped that many times and then what I call kind of alluded to it earlier but I call the uh, criminal informant mentality from my public defenders days.
Speaker 2:It's one of my legal jobs. It was like, um, if I tell you what I know, what are you going to do with it? You know it's against the law to to, you know, to prostitution, it's against the law to steal, but I've been forced to do these things. Are you going to prosecute me or so it's? So it's those four things kind of going on and we've got to kind of address that. Yeah, so sorry, my phone was doing a little thing here. We're supposed to be off.
Speaker 1:Oh no, that's okay, that's okay.
Speaker 2:I was wondering what that was.
Speaker 1:All right. So the barriers preventing survivors from achieving a full and healthy life. I think we've covered some of those. What else would you, you, what else would you like to share, so everybody else would understand what it's like to be a survivor? We've already talked about most of it.
Speaker 2:Well, I think in many cases, people that are getting roped in we mentioned vulnerable populations, so foster care is a big one Kids within that system are used to being monetized really right, because you know they're often like that happen well, they're removed from the home because of some sort of abusive situation, oftentimes in the home, right, okay, then they're put into the system where they're supposed to be put in a protective situation. But those people are getting paid to watch over and part of their exploitation was often monetization, that their bodies weren't their own and they were being offered some kind of gift or something to keep quiet, to, not to just to have it be my little secret, you know our little secret and along with another other exploitive tactics. So the trafficker then uses that. They're waiting for these kids to come out, because they often there's not a lot of resources when they come out of, when they can no longer qualify for foster care, when they're, when they're bounced out of the system at 18 or 21. And so they're kind of left on their own and a huge percentage of those kids end up in jail. Substance abuse, which of course then puts them out to be vulnerable for being trafficked, and then that sexual abuse as kids then leads to all kinds of mental health issues that also are able I think you alluded to it are able to be exploited. So we kind of like, because of those things we need to be able to expand the educational, the education piece for all the, all these first responders, law enforcement, hospital hotels and some of these cases. We've gotten laws in place to make sure these folks are educated. We're still working on law enforcement.
Speaker 2:So if people want to call their congress, call a legislator and say, hey, why aren't we training our law enforcement people to recognize this and know how to deal with it? Because it's supposedly the number two criminal enterprise in the world really, yeah, more than more than guns, fast approaching drugs. Why? Because you can sell a person over and over and over again and you don't have to go out and get more guns and you don't have to go out and get more drugs and put yourself, you know, to expose yourself. You're just selling this person and you can go back to the online situation.
Speaker 2:You can list them online and make it seem like it's their, their ad that they put up, even though you've, as the pimp, you or the trafficker, you've created the ad, you're putting up the pictures, you're creating the false narrative and so you know. So it's. So we've got to get at the awareness piece, so teaching in the school systems to get to those kids, and we've, in a lot of cases we've already gotten these bills in place. So, like now, first and second year college students in Virginia have to take a class in human trafficking if they're in the in the state system. So any private college not they're not there yet but the state system.
Speaker 1:That's good, that's good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then vacator expansion is what we've been working on since those two bills you mentioned, I mean. So we, we wanted to increase the number of charges that they go into court for, and we just actually had a major breakthrough in 2025, wherein there's going to be a whole slew of misdemeanors added, and then felony drug possession will now also be able to be gotten off an individual's record.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's fantastic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you talked about this, but the Virginia Beach Justice Initiative. What is that?
Speaker 2:So that's an organization that now is merged into with the Richmond Justice Initiative.
Speaker 2:So those are two of the initial justice initiatives in state, and our goal initially was to raise awareness, but then it quickly morphed into we need to get the kids.
Speaker 2:So that created a whole curriculum that's now being used, I think last like 21 States Um and then um and then um a jail program where and we're actually going into the jails to teach a human trafficking class, where in survivors were getting to see how they'd been brainwashed, how they had been manipulated into believing that this had all been their voluntary choice, that this guy loved them or that there was some sort of partnership going on, when really, I don't know, there was none of that. And so once survivors have the light bulb going on, they can begin to get help. And then the justice initiative would work in conjunction with other organizations, a couple of which I mentioned earlier, to get those people resources to keep them from staying in the system, to get them into housing and programs and such like that. So, um, several years ago, I think, like 2021, those two organizations emerged to become what's now known as free kind okay so I'm no longer with free kind.
Speaker 2:But free kinds will refer survivors to the just free international so that we have been able to help them with their legal needs.
Speaker 1:Gotcha. So what organizations have been instrumental with support for, um, uh, you know, collaboration with the your, your, your organization?
Speaker 2:Sure. So I mentioned free kind is one, and then you have free kind, free kind, yes. So F R E E K II-N-D, okay. And then you can find all these folks online Samaritan House, which is local, and they just actually opened up a home for juveniles recently.
Speaker 2:So very grateful for that, because there's only, I think, like two other homes in the state, so there's a great need for more resources like that. Then you have Her Shelter. Local YWCA has participated in facilitating beds. Um, you've got on the other side of the water transitions, family violence services and um, I'm sorry, just blanked on one of the other names out there, but there are a number of organizations who've gotten themselves educated and are working to provide resources to survivors with a housing, and then there's an organization called survivor ventures which is solely, solely run by survivors led their leadership.
Speaker 1:I think I saw some of those people at the last event.
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, so they are doing some great work. Obviously survivor-led, because, unfortunately, for many years, survivors were just asked to bring forward their stories but really weren't invited into the conversation, weren't given leadership positions, weren't being trained to be able to do that. That has really been changing quite a lot over the last several years.
Speaker 1:So therefore, leading to Can this information be found on your website?
Speaker 2:Let's see. You'll find a few of the organizations on the coalition website who are actual active paying members to the coalition. Ok, and then which is that's? Vcahtorg, so the initials of the coalition, okay, and then, um, which is that's VCAT, vca, htorg, so the initials of the organization, and then just free international. We do list some of those organizations on there, but you can um the attorney, the state, the department of criminal justice services in Virginia has a whole list of organizations across the state that are working on whether providing resources, education, job training, housing, substance abuse, and so I think if you go to the Virginia Department of Criminal Justice Services and type in human trafficking in their search engine, it'll bring you to the page that has the most current list of organizations that have been vetted. Not just anybody can go on there. It of organizations that have been vetted. Not just anybody can go on there. It's organizations that have been trained. They're called SETS training and they're therefore considered qualified to be listed on that list.
Speaker 1:So what types of things should you look for if you are a parent?
Speaker 2:Well, first of all, remember that you're a parent.
Speaker 1:You're not their good buddy as hard as that may be and you need to be friends after everybody's making their own.
Speaker 2:So monitoring, but it's also, um, do it keeping the dialogue open, really critical to um, them being willing to share and feel safe enough to come and share with you If they've made some sort of mistake, if they're, if somebody has flipped you know, gotten them to post a nude or send something, you know something revealing, and then now they're being blackmailed so that your child feels comfortable enough to come and talk to you so they can get help and you can cut it off.
Speaker 2:No, we don't end up with a suicide because that child didn't feel like they had anywhere to go, so because there can be threats to family, so they feel comfortable and then be aware of what they're on. I think your assistant you know morgan's, you know she's got it down she's like kind of combesting, like kind of monitoring this, if they can be. It's kind of impossible. There's so many apps and there's some of them are specifically designed to to be hide, you know to go to, you know to parade as a, as like a math app, and then it's really a you know a cover for other stuff. Yeah, so it's being aware, trying to be aware, but at the same time, keeping lines of communication open and really educating your kids on the dangers of that people are out there who really desire their harm and their exploitation right right?
Speaker 1:um, so as an individual, just a citizen, and you're, you're in public and you see things with with things, what things would be red flags for someone that might be in that situation?
Speaker 2:Good question. It really depends. It's going to be contextual. So if I'm a nurse in an ER and I get somebody coming in who has somebody who either doesn't speak the language it's requiring some sort of family member to you know to try to translate for them, or there's a person there who won't let them speak for themselves that they have to answer all the questions, that would be a red flag and there'd be some protocols for trying to get that survivor to another room and keeping that. You know, that person probably might be the trafficker or somebody involved in their exploitation to separate them out. Or in an educational setting you've got a kid who was a good student.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And all of a sudden they're falling asleep in class and they don't you know, their behavior starts to change. They're being more easily triggered, losing their cool, combative. It can be, or it can be the, the, the, the quiet kid who, or the loud kid, or the rambunctious kid who suddenly gets really like quiet, like, seem to be depressed and such, you know, as a teacher in those settings or a guidance counselor, whatever you know you want to change. It might not be trafficking, but it could be child abuse, which in Virginia, is you know human trafficking is actually considered. Could be child abuse, which in virginia, is you know human trafficking is actually considered to be child abuse. Okay, so, um, so the same protocols you'd use to report somebody for child abuse, you'd use for reporting what you think is a human trafficking situation, law enforcement, you know there.
Speaker 2:If now for general public, what are you looking for? Well, you know, um, the, the really older adult with a really young woman that seemed to be in some sort of relationship, but this person looks kind of really underage. You know the situation where you've got the kid coming to your door and he's selling those magazines, like a young man who came to our door, west Virginia University student, he said he was. He was selling magazines as part of a university scholarship program. So because my wife and I knew what we know, we invited him in and I began asking him questions and my wife began Googling his company. And the more she Googled, the more I asked, the worse it got. What? 21-year-old doing a sales position, doesn't have a cell phone on him and doesn't have his driver's license? Two huge red flags. It means that somebody else is in control. They're controlling his means of contacting anybody.
Speaker 2:They're controlling his means of identification wow so there's I mean this, there's a number of um, there's a, there's a number of good programs out there that you can get a kind of a human trafficking 101 sort of online, but there are just different instances. You may see, like a lot of exploitation in the labor area related to construction, the hotel industry, especially in the custodial area, you've got the lawn service folks and such. So Asian massage, the exotic erotic massage parlors issues potentially there. So there are a lot of different venues and the bottom line is there's a national anti-human trafficking hotline. If you think something looks suspicious, then you can make a call to that hotline. I think it's 1-888-3737-888 or so. It's like four eights at the at the back end, so, and they're an experienced counselor kind of help ask questions and kind of help you walk through what you're seeing.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:I would not recommend approaching the situation. You know, if you think somebody's being like, you see that person who's standing on. Let me back up for a second. You see a lot less street prostitution these days, like people walking what they used to call the, the uh, the track. Yeah, Um, that's much, much, much, much, much, much less. Because, why?
Speaker 2:Because we can advertise them online and it becomes again looking more visible, Right, so it so it yeah, so it makes it look like, yeah, it's all voluntary, it's the services, so you know that kind of thing. But you may see a person who is maybe more scantily clad, who appears to be, you know, approaching people. I would not approach them, but that might be the basis for making a 911 call or something. 911 call or something like one of the advocacy groups we work with saw an adult male like dragging a young girl down the sidewalk, you know that kind of like pulling her hair and being very abusive to her. Well, that's probably a call for, you know, police anyway, but that ended up being a trafficking situation. So, um, that that would be a time to make that call, and probably to local law enforcement. If you think it's you can't tell if it's an emergency situation, you can call the non-emergency number for that city, because we wait to call the hotline to you in another city. But anyway, so those are some things we can do.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, I appreciate you. You've definitely educated me, and hopefully the people that are following me as well, um, but thank you for coming in.
Speaker 2:I would like to share one thing, if I could we had this saying when I was with um bbgi, um, just one thing. And we continued that thing. What does that mean? Well, no one can do everything, but everybody can do something. And the question is, what is your one thing? I'm in this movement.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry if I get emotional Because my daughter, who was a sophomore in high school, went to a youth event where they were talking about human trafficking happening around the world. My wife was at the same event. They came home and educated Well, daughter said well, if it's happening around the world, is it happening in the United States? And she had a term paper to write. She chose to write it on human trafficking in the United States back in 2010. She shares it with her dad to critique.
Speaker 2:And I'm going back to my public defender experience and realizing, oh my gosh, I was representing all these young people on women charged with prostitution. I had no clue they were likely being trafficked and because of her sharing that with me, 15 years later, 50 plus bills have been enacted, and not all by me, but because God put me in that the organization we involved. Survivors have been identified, getting help, getting out of the system. All because my daughter and my wife also heard about a young lady in richmond who started the richmond justice initiative who needed a lawyer to help with policy and legislation, and she got me referred. So, between the two women in my life, but my wife and my wife was quite involved with the organization for about for probably nine years before she finally said I've had enough, you know, but, but, but my daughter's action was that's really pretty much that one action, but it's been an inspiring story.
Speaker 2:I've used to get out so you can do something. It's educate yourself. Call your legislator. I noted that earlier. We need more laws that protect survivors greater criminal record with the Favell, but to them. More laws that protect survivors greater criminal record with the Favell, but to them. And and I can tell you that legislators, when they get those calls, they get those emails, they multiply by 10. I've had any number of state and federal elected officials or their staff tell me yeah, we figure, for every one person who calls our office or sends that email, sends that letter, there are 10 more just like him out there who believe the same thing, just didn't take the time to call, but may vote come that election. So you can make a difference. Don't ever sell yourself short as to what you can do, that your one thing may in fact set somebody free.
Speaker 1:So Well, you being here enlightened me. I never thought about it in that situation and, um, you know, it makes me reflect on judging people and not really knowing what their circumstances are behind those actions. And that's why I do this, because I always want to know why.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I really appreciate the opportunity to be here and you're making this. You know people aware of this. Yeah, I did think of you asking about a website. Uh, on the coalition website, yeah, there's a thing called myths and some of the biggest myths that people believe about those who are being trafficked and why they don't leave, or you know all these different circumstances, so if they go there, they'll get quite a bit of education on some of the biggest myths and it's that reorientation of our brain that helps us then be ready to really help.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:Thank you, is that it? Yeah, thanks, I appreciate you. Let me throw in that extra.
Speaker 1:Thank you, Patrick, for coming in. So that's Patrick J McKenna Esquire, and thank you for coming on and we'll catch you next time on Listen Up.
