TRANSITIONING -The Story I was ALWAYS meant to Tell with Jamie McInnes

 What does it really mean to lead authentically—especially during personal transition?
 In this episode of The Me Inc Podcast, Nigel sits down with Jamie McInnes to explore identity, emotional intelligence, and courageous self-leadership in real time. 

In this deeply human and practical conversation, Jamie McInnes—an accomplished leader in retirement and wealth management—shares her journey of transition, visibility, and becoming more fully herself while continuing to lead complex organizations and client relationships.

We explore what it looks like to navigate gender transition with clarity and intention, including how Jamie approached conversations with partners, clients, and colleagues, how she handles misgendering with grace and humor, and why naming what’s different can actually free teams to focus on what matters most.

The conversation also dives into emotional intelligence and the EQ-i framework, revealing how empathy, optimism, and a bias for action can lower inner noise and strengthen leadership under pressure. Jamie reflects on cultivating a second inner voice—one that reframes firsts as progress, not judgment—and how that mindset supports resilience and presence.

This episode offers grounded insight for leaders in finance, professional services, and beyond who care about building humane, inclusive workplaces without relying on jargon or performative gestures.

🎧 Listen if you’re navigating change, leading through complexity, or seeking language for these moments.

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👉 Share with someone who’s navigating transition, identity, or leadership growth

Transcript

Welcome, Mission, And Sponsor

SPEAKER_00 0:00

You are, and will always be, your most valuable asset. Welcome to the Me Yang Podcast, a series of conversations with individuals living happy, healthy, and engaged lives, while exploring the importance of emotional intelligence to thrive in this ever-changing world. My name is Nigel Franklin, a CPA, MBA, and a certified emotional intelligence coach. My mission and passion is to enable others to be that best version of themselves by understanding the importance of making investments in their physical, mental, and spiritual well-being. Before we begin today's conversation, a brief word from our sponsor, Oculus Partners LLC. Oculus Partners LLC works with organizations in the retirement and wealth management space that are navigating growth, change, and increase in complexity. Their focus is helping firms move beyond short-term fixes and towards clear, sustainable strategies that align purpose, people, and performance. At the center of their work is a belief that meaningful progress starts with clarity, clarity of direction, clarity in operating models, and clarity in how leaders and teams work together. Arculus Partners partners with organizations to design practical strategies and execution frameworks built for long-term impact. That philosophy aligns closely with the spirit of this podcast. At Me Ink Help, we explore how clarity and intentional leadership creates lasting change, both personally and professionally. To learn more, visit OculusPartners.com. And now let's begin today's conversation.

Setting The Theme: Kindness And Perspective

SPEAKER_00 1:41

Welcome to the Me Ink Podcast. For this discussion and for this conversation, one of the kindest people that I know. This is a complicated conversation for me, but one that I've been hoping to have. We meet so many people along the way who are living lives that are inspiring, but also who actually show up in the world with a very, very different impact, right? Who have a positive impact on how they want to be in the world, how they want to walk through the world. So the person that I am speaking with today, she is the kindest person, one of the kind of bosses that I've had over the many years. But we're going to just have a conversation today. Just talk about where she is now in this journey called life. And just talk about some of the intriguing and interesting aspects of her life as as we we would call it. So this is a conversation. I think it's a perspective that's very different, a perspective that that is important to share. And Jamie, I'd say I'm so happy to have you as part of this conversation today. I've been looking forward to this. I think it lines up with the theme of the podcast overall. And I think that anyone who sticks with us would find something very, very, very uh inspirational to take away. I think the themes as we're going in and I'm talking this week are perspective matters, kindness matters, empathy matters. We can be in the same position, but having a very different experience. And the fact that above all else, we can actually be good human beings. Then if you're actually doing those things, we're ahead of the game. So onto that team, Jamie. Welcome to the show. Happy to have you here. Let's jump in.

Jamie’s Career Journey In Finance

SPEAKER_00 3:30

Share a little bit about who you are with the audience.

SPEAKER_03 3:34

Okay, so uh Jamie McKinnist. So I'm my late 50s. I've been in a professional career all my life. And today I actually own and operate a consulting company for financial services firms. So we consult for some of the larger asset managers, the insurers, and so forth. Mostly around business strategy related to retirement. That's sort of been my general theme: institutional retirement, individual retirement at times as well. Actually, I bought my company in January of 2021. So it's been a little more than four years, and it's been a great experience. Prior to that, now I spent, you know, 20, 25 years in industry. I started in um consulting, actually. Very different type of consulting firm. In the industry part of it, I sort of joined uh a firm in Boston, Putnam Investments, in their retirement business, and that's sort of where I got my start in retirement and spent four years there, a couple years at an internet startup. I was really fortunate. I got an opportunity to go to Japan. I spent four years in Japan, which you and I have chatted about before, and then back to the States. So the last 10 years of my career, actually, Nigel's where you and I met, uh, prudential financial. Had a number of roles there in their domestic businesses. And at the end, I was running their sort of their full service retirement business, ahead of that business. And then I was asked to go to Indonesia, where I had the pleasure of working with lots of great people, and one of which, one of whom was was you, Nigel, when I met you.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

I thought you would just say great person, a great person and not talk about others. I think that would have been a good way to you know, sure. It's interesting, Jamie. Like you leave out the theater stuff. You always leave out the the theater part. Yeah. Diverse background, right? It it's you you always leave that out. Why?

SPEAKER_03 5:34

It's because it's such a non sequitur, right? I mean, it doesn't fit with the rest, but yeah, I do leave it out, and it's it's theater and filled. Early on in my life, when I was um after I was sort of consulting, I wanted to go back to school and I wanted to get a master's in finance, which I did. But I needed to support myself because the consulting job was, you know, 80 plus hours a week. There was no way I could do that. So I basically took all the money I had and started a theater company. I think, you know, the obvious thing to do. Right.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

But that's not that is not that you don't take all the money you have and start something that you're not passionate about, right? You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 6:14

I mean, uh fair enough. Fair enough. I've looked I've done theater since I was a little kid. So, you know, my my

The Theater And Film Chapter

SPEAKER_03 6:20

thing is I wanted to be um, you know, an actor when I grew up. I mean, one of the schools I wanted to go to was Juilliard. I never actually applied to Juilliard for a variety of reasons. So, yeah, so I did get my opportunity to start a theater company, helped a Center for the Arts establish themselves in a new building. They're still there today, doing well. They paid off the mortgage on that building. And then I had a good friend of mine today, he'd come back from LA, he was a filmmaker, and he just asked, uh, and he saw my name in a local paper on a photo, and says, Look, this person looks like they're doing the same thing that I want to do, but in theater, and I want to do it in film, and we've been deep good friends ever since. It was over 30 years ago. So he and his wife have seen his kids grow up. But at some point in time, I wasn't making any money at all in the chill stuff. I was like, I got maybe I need to think about doing something a little different. And so after I finished my masters in finance and got my CFA, I tried to find a job and it was challenging. Just my background was different. People couldn't read my resume and go, oh, I can see where you fit in this company.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

I I think I have the same issue in my area as well, but that's okay.

SPEAKER_03 7:38

That's just how it goes, right? So, anyway, so that was the theater and the film stuff. It was a lot of fun. I still watch films with an eye towards the camera work. I always think about the acting and appreciate it in a way that um with a different perspective than I think most people do when they go to a film, see a film and theater, same thing. I love building steps and developing an environment where people could actually suspend their disbelief and become very familiar with uh and become very ingrained in the actual story itself that were taken away. And all aspects of the theater have to do that instead of what they're listening to, the what the visuals are, etc. A lot of people say, Do you miss that? I said, I I don't know. I do that every day. What do you mean? I said, Well, you know, being a leader in a company means that you have to always be thinking about the impact you're having on your audience. What is the visual? How are they experiencing this? What are they coming away from? Are they taking away from it what you want? So public speaking in front of an audience off the cuff or scripted didn't really matter. It was fairly came fairly easily for me. I didn't most of the time I didn't act in the theater work. I did as a director, producer. So directing was a passion of mine, but uh I've acted most of my life, and maybe I just acted my way through my career as well.

SPEAKER_00 9:04

I'm I'm I'm not gonna say. I'm we're gonna get to that. Interestingly enough, I'm going back to when we first met. We had dinner in KL together in 2016. Yes, it was you, myself, and Candace Woods. You're still newish to the international group. I don't even think I knew you were Indonesia yet, right? That was the first time we met, and then we ended up working together in Indonesia for almost two years, right? Very formative, very interesting time. Also, I I don't know if

Leadership As Storytelling

SPEAKER_00 9:40

you you know this or you remember this, but I came to Indonesia. I was there for two weeks, and then I came back to do the presentation or the first meeting presentation in November or December of 2017. And I remember at the time you gave me a book, and and I'll show I'll I'll hold it up. It's it's actually this book. And I think for the first time I actually go, I actually showed someone the fact that I geeked out about emotional intelligence. And I remember at the time thinking I'm gonna enjoy working with him. That's who you were at the time. Now you've transitioned. We're gonna get to that. But I think that was the formative part. I think I must say, and I'm and part of the reason why we're having this conversation today, Jamie. In all the bosses that I've had, you're one of the few who I actually think accepted me for me, who tried to understand where my perspective and my background was was at the time and guide me and steer me in the directions that you you needed me to go or you needed me to grow in. Now, I know I've joked about this with you before, in that you're the only person who didn't want me to be anybody else. Like you wanted Nigel to show up, and and that's what it was. And and I think that was the transformative part of my career because as difficult as being in Indonesia was, I got a chance to be myself, right? And I got a chance to learn a lot more about myself while I was actually there. I would actually say though that, and we can transition pardon upon, but into how our relationship was deeper, right? I remember talking to the perspective matter. I remember chatting with you about the fact that I was getting ready to come home, but there was no plan for me to come home. And I was talking talking to you about the struggles of dealing with the uncertainty that's on the other end. And then you shared with me, like you shared with me that again, perspective matters because you were let go X amount of months before, and you couldn't say to anyone, right? And then I was like, oh, here I am thinking that it my stuff is bad, but you got me one up there. And then I remember sorry that I had to do that, but you know, it was so I remember complaining to you then in in in 2022. I was I was explaining to you coming out of business school and how challenging it was to transition at the time, what was coming up, the fact that at the time the D E and I stuff, everyone everyone wanted to hire a black guy, and how that diminishing that was. And I was talking about just those challenges that I was having. Oh no. And you know, finding finding my voice, finding my identity. And I remember, I remember the next thought I said as I was trying to transition away from it, I was like, here I am complaining, right? So I transitioned away, and it was like, Jamie, why doesn't Monica make you cut your hair? And uh that's the day that you told me that you were transitioning. And I remember sitting there like this for a while, like taking it all in, feeling that I was extremely insensitive.

SPEAKER_03 12:54

And I want I want to yet again, is what you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

Yeah, and I was like, I was thinking that, but then I I you know, just in the nature of our friendship, I think mid-sentence, I I am mid-you going through this, and I I still feel bad about it. I was like, um, Jamie, you're not doing this to gain strokes when we play golf, are you? So I think that that was too far to go,

Indonesia, Mentorship, And Being Seen

SPEAKER_00 13:20

right? But I remember, I remember, I remember joking about it because at that time I must say to you that because you were the kindest person to me, like I was just trying to be as empathetic to you. And as we could we can talk about this, the transition part of it, how that has been, and I can share some of the most more profound things that you've shared with me through that that journey. I'm so grateful that you're willing to have the conversation with me today, not just about your career and your arc, but this last transition for you, pardon the pun again, and how you're actually showing up in the world. I think I don't have anyone other than you, my friend, who is it living this life or walking down this path. And it it I learned so much from trying to be there for you, trying to have these conversations with you, uh, especially in the earlier days, that I thought this is something that the world should hear, right? As many people who would listen into the show would actually hear it. So if you want, maybe we can talk a little bit about you and how you're showing up now, the transition that you've made, that idea of being not just only visible but vocal. Wherever you'd want to start, wherever you're comfortable in, we could meander from there. Could you please do me a small favor? If you're appreciating the content so far, please like and share with someone who may find this conversation beneficial. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 14:46

It might be useful to provide a little context for everybody. So, first disclaimer, I'll put a disclaimer out there. Most people probably know somebody who's trans in their life. They just don't, they're not aware that they're trans. So I'll put that out there. Many people are trans hide who they are because they're definitely afraid of what that will mean. Some are actually very legitimately afraid of violence, etc., and fully transitioned. And they just don't want to be identified as trans. They want to be identified as he or her, depending, and just move on with life and just just not not have a life that is a spectacle to anybody. So you can empathi I can empathize with both of those folks, those types of folks who are in the community, and then there are some who are visible who identify openly, you know, as trans media, sort of in the film sort of world, not surprising. But not that's not so much in business. So in I've always known, and this is the context now, the context for me. I've always known that I was different. My entire life. I could I couldn't have told you why I was different. I didn't feel like different special. I had just felt different and maybe uncomfortable. Sort of my process of my moving to Indonesia, I had that sort of really long time frame where I really had left the domestic businesses but didn't have a lot to do. My mind slowed down, and all of a sudden it started to focus on me and the internal sort of feelings I had. And I was sort of in the 2016 time frame, but still couldn't figure it out. And then in 2017 into Indonesia, all the way through to the end of the end of 2018, and then I came home and I still didn't know what was going on with me, why I felt the way that I felt. I mean, I look back on it, I feel like I'm pretty much an idiot for not having recognized it. But it was only in December 2019 that I finally read a book, and the book really doesn't matter, but it was a book that was more autobiographical and it was about somebody, and I said, Oh that's that's exactly how I feel. Those are those are my experiences, and I'm like, oh damn. So that's what this means. That was December 2019. So up until I was about 53, I really hadn't recognized that I was trans. That's not true for every trans person. It's not unusual for people in my generation because growing up in the 70s long wasn't a place where people really were they were discouraged from expressing these types of things. And a lot of people suppressed it, repressed it. So that was my my context is that I just was not aware of this about myself and became aware at a pretty late stage in life. So that's the backdrop. I had discovered this about myself and I had to figure out what I was gonna do with it. It took me a couple of years to really come around to the terms of what I needed to do for me, transitioning from a mental health perspective for me, it is just and every step of the transition along the way, the noise in my head has come down and come down and come down. And I'm calmer, happier, more content every time that sort of advances. So it it's it's the right thing. I'm not sure people if someone who's trans, if someone who's trans, I think they get it. Someone who's not, you sort of have this thing in your head that's buzzing all the time about you just don't feel comfortable in your own skin. And that is really can be very debilitating. It shows up in depression and anxiety for people who are dealing with that. Some people figure out how to manage it. I recently found out about a friend who's I've known for more than 30 years, has figured out how to manage it, you know, completely without any uh any transition type work. But for me, it was important. So then I had to decide how am I going to do this? Like a transition when. You know. At this point, I'm 55, 56, and I had to start sharing it with some people very close to me in my business. The woman I bought the company from is still very much involved. She is from the South. You know,

A Personal Reveal: Transitioning

SPEAKER_03 19:10

I spent time with her, she's been amazing as a person to our friendship has blossomed over the last four years in a massive way. We talked a lot about whether or not coming out of work, what would it mean? And I gathered information, I talked to people, and there was a lot of fear associated with that. And what I wanted to do was to think about why I'm doing this. And ahead of me even realizing that I needed to do this for me, uh I made a decision that I needed to do this to be visible, that there was this to look at this as an opportunity as opposed to an issue. Look at it as a something I could use to. Better the world around me. And not a lot of people get this opportunity. I mean, very rarely in life are you given this moment, right, where you could say, if I did this, it could actually have an impact on people's lives in a bigger way than I might just imagine. And I don't know that I'm doing that necessarily, but I decided to be visible as somebody who had been very senior in my industry, running one of the major businesses in our industry, now consulting to that, that sort of industry as I do today. And I said, I I I could be visible and make a difference. People could see me and start to know that this is something that others are others can go through as well, and that it's not debilitating and it isn't going to, it's not impacting the work I deliver, it's not impacting sort of the value that I bring, et cetera. That I'm this is what I'm going through right now. And unfortunately, it just, you know, for a lot of people dealing with things, being trans and transitioning is just not something you can hide from the world. It's just a matter of when do you do it. And I could have waited until I retired, and I was like, yeah, that would be I think I'd be really disappointed in myself if I waited that long. So yeah, being being visible was important.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

So I think the the one thing that came up with me, Jamie, was that for me at least, you were so nervous the day that you were sharing it, and I know you were sharing it with a broader group then. What were you most afraid of as you were telling your your friends about this? You what was that challenge for you in sharing that this is your new path or this is the new direction that you're moving with for true life? For your happiness, for your sanity, for your calmness, calmness, for your contentment with life.

SPEAKER_03 21:42

So I recognize that you know gender is very much a construct in our society. It's it's constructed differently in other societies, but gender in our society is constructed very in a very binary fashion. People become very can become emotional about it in a big way. I think we're seeing some of that showing up in today's rhetoric. It's amazing the the focus on trans people represent, you know, such a minority of the you know, the world in terms of how the politics are playing out right now. But I think that's a testament to the fact that gender is a very can be a very emotional topic for people. So my anxiety was about how

Fear, Safety, And Choosing Visibility

SPEAKER_03 22:30

would people hear the news about me. You know, most of them weren't gonna have any experience. Many of them were the I was the first person they'd ever met that said this to them. I think it's just more about how were people going to respond because this particular coming out is can be emotionally pretty pretty difficult. Everything from, you know, I love you no matter what, and that this has no impact on a relationship to yeah, I don't believe I don't believe in that. You're not around and I'm yeah, I can't talk to you anymore.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

Have you had that?

SPEAKER_03 23:07

Like just I've had one person who said that they they don't believe in it. Where I said to them, sorry, don't believe in me anymore. No, we're still friends. This is somebody I care about deeply, his kids as well, and uh has been a friend for 20 years. And I've just encouraged him to do, you know, some reading on the topic just to become familiar with what this sort of really is. Because a lot of people just it's just most people, even the ones that say, I love you, it doesn't matter. Some of them will even say, I I just can't I can't imagine I just don't understand this at all, but that doesn't matter. It's not important for me to understand this for me to still love each other about you type of thing. But I I believe it, but I just I don't understand it.

SPEAKER_00 23:52

So the the crazy part of it is I I don't know if we need to understand it, Juan right, because it's about you and that's the empathy part of it. I know I I joke a lot, but I I mean I've given you off time as much as I possibly can. Because Jamie, I don't see you in any uh yes, there are things that are changing, but there's so much of it that is still the same, the essence of you, the kindness that you've been, as kind as you you've been to me. But how did I handle it? Because you said some things to me that was really touching, right? One of them was you said you you well on on one side, and and the two we played golf and we were having dinner, and on one side you said, you know, you're going from the top of the pecking order to the second lowest from the bottom of the pecking order, right? There's like nothing the way that the hierarchy of the world from that gender perspective, the uh gender, race, ethnicity, the whole bit.

SPEAKER_03 24:46

There's sort of nothing else, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:48

Right?

SPEAKER_03 24:49

Being a white man, you know, to being uh, you know, a trans white woman puts me sort of down.

SPEAKER_00 24:55

He said only thing low was the a black trans woman, right?

SPEAKER_03 24:59

You said that or a person, a person, a person of color, yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

And so that was one. And then two, you actually, when you asked me, I was like, um, you asked me, so would I be comfortable out having dinner with you if you were dressed as a woman? And I was like, Yeah, well, yeah, you said no, why would I not be? I stopped that I said, Who's paying? No, and I and I I didn't tell you that you should practice walking in heels because the relationship that we have is that uh if you were having a hard time, I am gonna give you a hard time. But yeah, but it wasn't right. So I I know I joke about it and that's my way of handling it, but I I've always been wanting to be there. But I wanted to know one, how can how did I show up? And then two, how can other people show up for someone in this in this space or this this space in life they're going through it?

SPEAKER_03 25:52

Yeah, so you showed up great, uh, Nigel. You did exactly what I needed, right? First of all, you didn't treat me any differently. Well, I am gonna remind you about one thing you did promise me, and you are gonna not like it. But you you did you did um you you treated it with humor. You engaged in the conversation, you didn't get uncomfortable about it. The humor was you know put me very much at ease. The fact that you really

Telling Colleagues And First Client Encounters

SPEAKER_03 26:20

didn't have any uh uneasiness about it was was great. You did tell me that if I showed up in a skirt, you would let me play from the red tees. So just letting you know that that's happened.

SPEAKER_00 26:35

I I actually to be honest, what I told you is if I if you if you're going through the transition and you're dressed as a woman, you can play from the forward tees. But if you're not if you're not there yet, you're gonna have to play from the back thing with me. That is so good. But you know, Jamie, that that that I was nervous of saying the wrong thing. I was extremely nervous because I wanted to be as supportive to you as as others have been, as you've always been for me. And so I was nervous of saying the wrong things. I think one of the things there's there's and before before I get into that, maybe it is how can what does how can someone show up, right, in that empathetic way or in that supportive way, if someone's going through this? Like if you had a gold standard of what good would look like in that scenario, what or maybe what are the things that you didn't experience, right? That the things that were hurtful to you as you were trying to as you were in the process of transitioning.

SPEAKER_03 27:36

How can people show up? Well I think there's a acknowledging that something's different if somebody is showing up. So I the first time I I actually presented as female at work in person. A new client had hired us, I'd never met them before. We were going into I was helping them with a finals pitch. Several days before I had to let the main contact know that I was trans and she, her pronouns and the whole bit. And just I said, Look, you're gonna see me down in Florida, and I just needed to be aware of this. I just want to make sure the team is there. He was phenomenal on the call. And frankly, when I got down there, I was sitting in a room with, you know, I was the only person from my company there. And they were all, and you know, it says, Jamie, she's gonna do this and that. And I'm like, and I'm sitting here going, Who are they talking about? I don't know.

unknown 28:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 28:33

Well, it just I just never, I mean, it was just so it was so natural for them to adopt it. I was like, it was like, wow, that's that's pretty awesome. We actually were going into a pitch, and they're the the person who led the business that we were pitching to, somebody I've known for decades in the industry, is all very senior. We're entering into a large room of about 50 people plus. This is a big meeting. And I remember walking up to him and saying, Hey, you know, how are you doing? And just and all they could do was laugh. Now, I have to say, I could understand you know, his response, right? He's like, I'm not sure I'm seeing what I'm seeing. But uh, and he's not the type of person most people would think is, you know, the most empathetic, et cetera, in terms of this, they would be surprised by how he behaved. But his colleague, who is also very senior of the company, they both treated me like an equal member, if not a senior member of the pitching team. When there were side meetings that needed to be held, they were like, we need Jamie in this conversation. And they just treated me wonderfully. So they showed up beautifully in the entire meeting. I couldn't have asked for more uh in terms of how I was engaged during that day of meetings. I think the only thing that would have been different and, you know, easy for me to say, right? Because the person on the other side doesn't know what to say, would have been, Jamie, you you're you're very different. Just want you to know, I'm recognizing that. Looking forward to having a conversation with you today about what we're working on. And uh, I just hope you're you're doing okay. And that's it. And that's all that that would have been the only thing that could have been added to what was really a wonderful day, anyway, from that individual.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

But I think there's a lot of fear that comes in, right? So that fear of, again, for me saying the wrong things, and I believe at some point I was always fearful again of misgendering you, right? And uh yeah, and and and that's the one thing I thought was actually really graceful how you managed

Misgendering, Grace, And Humor

SPEAKER_00 30:40

that, right? You kind of slightly nudged me back whenever I would use the wrong pronouns.

SPEAKER_03 30:46

What is that? Or or or she, you know, I mean, yeah, as an alternative to he. Just uh yes, I would nudge you. Yeah, I think a lot of people are very nervous about that, Nigel. You're not, you know, you're not alone. In fact, some people are so nervous they don't even know what to say to you, which is challenging. They really don't know how open I'm going to be or how much I want to acknowledge anything. I'm gonna talk a little bit about that visible vocal type of thing, what I'm changing this year, about who I how I how I engage. I'm a person who knows that people have known me for decades in many cases, and have decades have always known me as he. You know, I feel empathetic towards them in the fact that, you know, that's really difficult to change. I mean, heck, I mean, you know, I can misgender myself as sort of like who are they talking about? You know, I mean, so you gotta have some, you gotta give people some grace on things like that. As long as, I mean, you know, if you know they're not trying to insult you, then, you know, quietly, you know, adjusting the the thing like I do with you. Um, you know, I've done it in Sun meetings as well, and I've made it funny as opposed to this is an issue. I don't get upset by misgendering. Um, I do think that many trans people become very upset by being misgendered because they feel it's intentional and it's used to humiliate them. I just choose to believe that the people that I've engaged in my life are not out to humiliate me. They're just trying to figure out how to get through the day without, you know, doing something that's really inappropriate or bad and and so forth. So I think it matters to some trans people in a very big way, as as it should, because there are probably people who have actually been misgendered intentionally for years as a means to put them down. I haven't had that experience. So I probably receive the misgendering differently than others. I just want people to feel comfortable talking to me. So one of the things I've, you know, I decided to be visible in probably around the 22 time frame, Nigel, three and a half years ago at this point. But I'm still recognizing that if I go into a client's office and we're in a big meeting, I I know that people are having a hard time sort of focusing on what I'm saying and getting out of the conversation when they need to get out of. And there's this unspoken issue, if you will, that they they they don't know how to engage me. They're worried, and they, you know, I would like to make people feel more at ease. So I've decided to be a little bit more vocal this year about my experience, to sort of share that with people via my LinkedIn account, simply to um, you know, help people understand that, you know, talking about this is not an issue. It's not an issue for me, and I don't want it to be an issue for them. And it's not as if you need to talk about this, you know, consume an hour of a meeting around this, but it it is, you know, it is challenging. It's a very funny conversation. And it's having a video conversation one-on-one with one individual, African-American professional, asset manager, wonderful person. I've known him for years. He works at one of our client organizations, and you know, I thought everybody in that organization must know. But I got on the phone and we're about three or four minutes into the conversation, and I'm watching him. I'm going, I think maybe we should stop the conversation for a moment. Just you look a little uncomfortable. Is that true? And the the response was, well, yes, I've I've never seen you wear those colors before. Okay. So I I just had to laugh and um and then we spent five minutes having a conversation about this. And then we got back to you know the work stuff. But I was realizing if I didn't stop the conversation at that moment in time, and since it was one-on-one, I could do it. And I knew him and trusted him enough to know that it would be fine. It's hard to do that in a group meeting, you know?

SPEAKER_00 34:59

Yeah. So

Being Visible And Vocal In The Industry

SPEAKER_00 35:00

tell me, tell me a little bit about more, a little bit about more. Uh tell me a little bit more about the visible and vocal in 2025.

SPEAKER_03 35:10

I need to be back out in the industry. So I'm definitely going to be more visible in industry settings. So conferences. I haven't decided exactly when I'm starting. I took 24 off, quite frankly. Because I was very actively and still am transitioning. By the end of the year, I need to be back into you know, going to conferences, being present. The LinkedIn posts I hope are going to be helpful because people read them before you know they see me the next time. And you know, I can say I'm in a post, I can say I'm going off to a particular conference and uh hope to see you there, type of thing. Don't be afraid to say hello, that type of thing. That's right, what we're doing today. I have absolutely no issues coming in and talking to a group of people about my experiences and things like that to make the topic more accessible for people. So some of the things I'd be communicating, I'd love to do more if it was in help of an organization to sort of engage in this. There are a lot of people that I think would benefit in the workplace by feeling a little freer to be out and do what they need to do. But it's scary. I mean, it really is scary, honestly. It was really scary for me, but it was just something I knew that I needed to do to accomplish the things that I wanted to do from sort of a visibility point of view. I wasn't going to be able to do that unless I started. I had to start.

SPEAKER_00 36:37

And I don't know. So you said for you've been transitioning a lot of last year and you'll continue to do that this year. What what's embodied in that transitioning phase of it? Like, you know, it because I know it's more than just showing up, right? And and different. And I want to go back to the first person that you knew that you showed up through a meeting, and they almost didn't know you, or were expecting something different. But what's transitioning and then, you know, what's one of those situations where you're in with someone uh that you've operated with before the transition and how and how are you received then, right? Like I know you talked about, you know, those individual meetings, the ones that, you know, in a big room, people would behave, but are there is are they things that you're experiencing on that one-on-one basis where it's like, you know, it's different? So what what is the transitioning process that you will continue to go through? And then you know, what was one of those challenging situations or funnier situations where you know it's like, yeah, you're meeting with Jamie, but not the Jamie that you think good actually meet with.

SPEAKER_03 37:50

Look, I've had literally hundreds of conversations, honestly, Nigel, about what did trans look, transitioning for me is is one thing. Transitioning for everybody else is a different topic. So let me like separate those out. Transitioning for me is the sort of things that you know people might imagine if they've done any reading, you know,

What Transition Means For Self And Others

SPEAKER_03 38:10

on the topic. There's hormones, there's medical solutions in terms of how to address you being transgender and what you need to accomplish to live in live in your body comfortably. There's a sort of a bit of a resetting on how you engage the world. I changed sort of some of the some of the ways that I've engaged because I've been told that was a very male way to handle that conversation. Stop mansplaining. I'm like, oh dear. You know, I mean, I'm like, all right, fair enough. I'll fix that. I'll fix that. Sorry. It was a pretty interesting conversation to have with the woman that um I work with so closely. And um uh like, okay, we take it. So there's a there's a physical appearance. There's like what do I feel about being comfortable? And then actually being comfortable presenting. It's all that there needs to be a plan. And there needs to be a communication plan, there needs to be a transition plan. It needs to be done thoughtfully. Certainly for somebody at my point in my life. It needed to be done very thoughtfully. There were just too many people involved. There were hundreds to several thousand people around, I mean, who need to know because I'm gonna show up and and and see them, which I did recently in in my trip to Japan, which I hadn't been back to for a number of years. But everybody else's transition is kind of important, right? So they're transitioning on how they're thinking about you, they're transitioning in how they feel that they want to engage you, etc. I remember getting down to one of my clients' office, and he was so sweet. He was my primary contact of the client. And I came down. Normally I, you know, I would shake his hand. He wanted to give me a hug. And I was I was surprised. But he had, I think he had been very deliberate around thinking through how he would engage. Engage me differently. And I was, I considered that really, really sweet and kind. So he was going through a transition on how to deal with me. And I think that's been true for pretty much everybody that's close to me in my life. As well as those people who deal with me but not are not that close. You know.

SPEAKER_00 40:18

Yeah. That that's interesting that I've never thought of it as the other individuals transitioning as well, right? Like transitioning and thinking and but here you are thinking about the other side of it again. That which is which is, I guess, a sign or indication of that you are in that high empathy kind of right. You're you're rather than thinking about you, you're thinking about the other side. And that's good to hear because because I think it it then recognizes or makes the fear real on on both sides of the conversation. It that it's challenging. It's we're both maybe going through something in a in a less than skillful way or in a in a in a clunkier way, right? So the you you said living comfortably in your body. How do you, you know, that that's that's twofold, right? That's the inner working, the inner being, and then the outside part of it. How are you managing yourself through this, right? I think it's it's a conversation in showing up authentically, kind of that many of us would have. But this is like authenticity on steroids, right? It's going much further than you would actually say. So, how are you managing you? What's the conversations in your head as you go through this process?

SPEAKER_03 41:33

So very often I have to reinforce myself inside. Uh, this is less today than it was several years ago, honestly, Nigel. So don't imagine this is something that's still happening, but it's a lot easier today than it was. But previously, I I had to reinforce myself I'm doing this for a reason. I'm doing this because I need to. I imagining the worst is probably the most unlikely thing that's going to occur. Imagining the best is probably not gonna occur either, but it's probably like not gonna be that bad. But always

Managing The Inner Voice And Anxiety

SPEAKER_03 42:10

reinforcing myself inside myself uh was a pretty common thing that I did as I was making a trip down. The first time I got on a plane, you know, the first time that I went into a meeting, the first time that I showed up on video with jewelry, those were all things that were not easy, right? But every time I did those things, I said, this is advancing my agenda, what I am trying to do. And it wasn't just a personal agenda, it was also one that I had decided, you know, a year or so earlier that I needed to do this because it's an opportunity. So it was just uh constantly reminding myself and having an inner voice that was not the one that was taking me down the dark path, but creating one that actually was deliberately supportive of myself. And I I find it odd even saying it could be honest with you, but that's what I did. I created an inner voice that was not the one that I normally lived with. Like life is gonna be horrible, they people are gonna make fun of you. It's you know, it's like I I created another side actually was supportive of myself. I don't know how that happened, but I did.

SPEAKER_00 43:16

I I'm going, maybe we could actually draw on draw on that and and start selling that as a product. Because you know it's interesting because we often talk about our inner voices and how you actually cultivate it, but it you're you had one inner voice that served you well, and now you're transitioning to that more authentic space, but you have to work on a voice that would actually help you stay on that path, right? Which is which is an interesting way of saying it. One of the things that you've said to me, and you've always treated me with so much grace, right? How are you different? What are you what are you learning, especially in the what are you learning about yourself, how you want to show up, especially in this current moment where you know there's all of this moving away from creating inclusive environments, right? So the downward spiral of the DEI conversation, right? How is that more emergent for you currently?

SPEAKER_03 44:20

Well, I'll talk about the sort of the DEI sort of spirit spiral as we talk about it. I think about the diversity and the inclusiveness of that. You know, and I do and the equality side, not that it shouldn't be there. It's just it's interpreted differently by different people, right? It's like, yeah, we're gonna make everybody equal regardless of the merits of that person, um, which is I don't think what the intention of DEI was about. It's giving people equal opportunity to demonstrate and perform and to get a chance. It's it was about opportunity as opposed to making an outcome the same for everybody. And that's a criticism of it. If you want my perspective on, at least in my industry, how the end of DEI programs or the end of vocally

DEI Backlash, Culture, And Opportunity

SPEAKER_03 45:10

thinking about it is going to show up, I think the rhetoric will probably be different. I don't think most companies are going to change what they actually do. Some will. But some of them were already, I mean, if you go to Hobby Lobby, you think about sort of how the the proprietor there runs their business. They were already there. But the ones who've embraced diversity as part of their culture, I don't think in in actual physical terms, it's going to in real terms, is it going to change? Um And maybe there's maybe there's a maybe there is a um silver lining to it in the sense that if it isn't so if it isn't seen as being so performative, it just becomes part of what we do with each other as we acknowledge our differences and we we step into a discussion without it being worried about, you know, having to say the right thing, et cetera. So that might be a that might be how that evolves. I mean, over time as as we as we sort of go back and forth the you know, the sort of the ebb and the flow of these topics to the point where it's like, yeah, we're different. And hey, let's just acknowledge that. And you're coming at life from a different perspective. Let's talk about how that's impacting how we work together and let's figure it out, right? Which is a very different conversation. So that's on the DEI side. Uh, I don't think most of the companies that I work with are going to do a lot of things differently. Uh, they may tone down sort of what they say because I think it could be deemed unpopular politically, but I'm not sure that's going to change their programs. What have I done? Right? Have I changed is what you've kind of been asked. What have I been working on? Right?

SPEAKER_00 46:54

Yeah, I think because you you one of the things before the transition, you always talked about grace, right?

unknown 47:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:01

Treating people with grace. So what's on the other side of this transition? How do you how are you showing up in the world different um from that? I think sometimes we when we go through a process, when we go through something, the needs of the support that we would need then, we kind of turn that back around on the world. So what's different from you? Different in how you show up now as a leader after going through this experience or are still working through this experience. Because you always made me feel seen, right?

SPEAKER_01 47:33

What else is is coming up as you've gone through the transition? You know, I think I'd have to ask some people around me how to answer that.

SPEAKER_03 47:43

I don't feel different in terms of how I show up. And I think that's probably what some people have kind of indicated to me is that you know, you are still the same person. You treat people with the same degree of respect, you have the same sense of humor, you are you seek people's input who might sometimes be sort of uh marginalized into conversation because they might be more junior. That I do those things, I've done those things before and I'll do them, and I continue to do them today. So I'm not sure that I've shown up a lot different than I have in the past. I think a lot of that's one of the things I think is really challenging, I think, for people to understand actually, let me put it this way. For people who are going through transition, kind of understanding how much of me am I changing. And what my decision was I'm changing the things on the outside. I'm not changing anything inside. I am who I am. I've always been this way. Some people who are going through a transition feel they have to take on a different persona to separate themselves from a past life that they they would choose not

What Changed And What Didn’t

SPEAKER_03 49:00

to remember in some cases. But that wasn't me. It never has been me. So I'm hoping I'm showing up in the same way that you've described me showing up for you, for others, and continue to do so going forward.

SPEAKER_00 49:12

Yeah. And and I really appreciate hearing that that you are to the core still who you are. And then the outside appearance, it is, it is actually where the the work is is being done. And and that that is that is reassuring. One of the things though, as I was saying, like not like, but to prepare for our conversation today, as much as what as much as the the relationship that we have.

SPEAKER_03 49:40

So I haven't changed.

SPEAKER_00 49:44

No, it's really positive. It's really it's really positive to hear you share that the change that is happening is on the outside and the inside is still the same. And that's how I've experienced you. One of the things, though, that I I wanted to bring up is that although we've had these conversations, I still wanted to expand my understanding of the issue. My intent, my impact is still always the same to be the same supportive friend that I've been. But I found myself, even just in preparing for our conversation today, I went out and looked at that um that Netflix show, Will and Harper. And it was it was enlightening and eye-opening. How do you, what advice can you give individuals to, hey, how do we, how do I increase that empathy? Is there a way of going about this experience other than having the conversation that someone can can get an understanding of what it is that you're going through or what someone in this position is going through and how they might be able to show up as helpful for them, right? Or supportive. Is there a way of expanding that knowledge or knowing that you can recommend?

SPEAKER_03 50:55

Yeah, I I I'm not sure if it's specifically for people who are trans. It could be for people who are different or in ability. It could be people who are different from a race who are in the minority or ethnicity, gender. Sort of an awareness that there is if you are in that minority, which I find myself very much to be every day these days, right? Um understanding that that person probably is coming to the table with a with a background set of fears that may or may not be coming forward in how they're engaging with you, but are there is I don't think a lot of people think about that. I mean, but okay, I'm in the white male majority, and you know, when the entire group is white and somebody of color comes into the room, it's like, okay, they are different, and I don't know where they're coming from, but I want to make that person comfortable and make sure

Building Empathy Beyond Lived Experience

SPEAKER_03 52:00

if there are any fears there that you know that they are addressed. I think that that's one of the things, and I I'll share a story with the woman that I bought the company from who still very much works for me. And she and I were very close. You know, she she shared a story with me that she was in an airport recently. And because she's known me, she's been able to identify if people are trans, which were invisible to her previously. It never crossed her mind, uh, in her words. And she was at a she was at a restaurant sort of at a table, and she was sitting right next to somebody who was trans. But she was watching the restaurant and the servers, and there were people sort of just like not dealing with her. I mean, they were they were visibly uncomfortable, right? Right. And she recognized at that time that there was probably fear and anxiety that that person was having. And she chose to turn to her and engage her in a conversation, talk about all sorts of stuff, and then put her at ease, meaning you don't need to be afraid of what I'm thinking, right? I'm just gonna tell I'm just gonna deal with you as you are anybody else, right? I'm gonna joke with you, we're gonna talk about whatever and the whole bit. And I think she recognized that that person, for the reasons that she's sort of seen with me in my conversations, had fear and anxiety about being sitting there. And she recognized that and then chose uh to engage her, which was probably made that person's day in a way that my colleague has absolutely no idea what that might have meant. And it was huge.

SPEAKER_00 53:44

You know, but what's interesting and what's coming up for me a lot these days is this this notion that you can't expect to have expect someone to have compassion for an experience that they've never had, right? So if you've never had to step outside of yourself, you never will step outside of yourself. I I really do appreciate though that that that idea of you know how you often say grace, the grace of actually making someone else feel seen. And yes, it's uncomfortable, but usually there's discomfort in in growth, right? There's that that green growing edge. Like if if you if if you're feeling it and you know what you're feeling, back to that self-awareness conversation that you always have. If you're feeling it, then there's something worth exploring. There's something worth leaning into so that we're not all paralyzed by the fear of doing the wrong thing per se, right? Any themes, any conversation, anything that you would want to have or share as you're thinking about this shift that you're making. We're gonna transition into a little bit more on your EQI assessment, but is there any themes or topics? Is there anything that you would want to share in this same space of the transitioning, how you're seeing the world, how you want to show up in the world? Is there is there anything else that you would want to share on that before we there is, but it's probably not personal.

SPEAKER_03 55:06

It's um it's probably for the viewers. You

Don’t Generalize: Every Story Differs

SPEAKER_03 55:10

can't generalize from what I've had to say to anyone else who's trans. And it's one of those things that I probably worry about most when I when I when I talk about myself in these terms, is that people might generalize. Uh the amount of fear that people have could be massively higher. The experience they've had historically with people, you know, making fun of them, et cetera, it could be massively different from where I have been. So my I come to the world with a set of experiences which could be dramatically different from somebody else who is also transgender. While there is some commonality around the fear and the anxiety that people feel and have felt today, their experiences are different, which therefore creates a different context for them as you're dealing with them. So my context is not the same as everybody else's, despite the fact that we have commonalities on certain things. So just don't take how I describe life as necessarily how others who are trans would describe their life.

SPEAKER_00 56:14

Do you think that that's a and this is just what's coming up? Do you think that that's a powerful enough voice? Because you're saying I want this is just me, and this is my experiences, don't extrapolate that onto the rest of the world. Whereas in a lot of the situations, it's more so that idea of see us, right?

SPEAKER_03 56:35

Uh yeah, those that those are common, right? I mean, you know, help people know that it's that it's comfortable to be there, right? Do not and then if you are really worried about you know pronouns and you really want to have a conversation with a person, you say, look, you know, I'm just a little confused, help me. Your pronouns are. Can you give me okay, great, thank you? I'm moving on. Like it's more about you can you can you can take some of the commonalities around sort of the engagement, making people visible, making people comfortable, assuming that there are fears there that you know you don't know anything about as part of the context that they are arriving at. You don't have to know their experience and their context dramatically to actually um establish yourself as a positive force in that in that person's moment, maybe not in their lives. And don't let this be a you know an inhibitor to engage. Whereas I think a lot of people find that it's an inhibitor for them. Okay. So yeah, yeah, you're right. I mean, it's I I I I say this because I just want to make sure that if people engage everybody's con they bring their own context to the table. It's no different for people who are trans than anybody else.

SPEAKER_00 57:46

Yeah. I I I'm I want to go and I'm curious of why you put before you put others before your experience so often, right? Even as you're trying to manage it. But that's something that we can unpack at at some later point or when we finally play. By the way, I'm I am practicing, so just be ready. Okay, you had a really good round in Mexico, but um I wish you could you could see myself, my putting matters out here. I am I am working on it.

SPEAKER_03 58:16

I think I think it's just playing with me. I just I just get in your head too much. No, you're not that's not gonna happen. I mean, I coach, I coach you on your putting, and when you think one, I say you see, it's my coaching, but I just put in your head.

EQ-i Results: Empathy, Problem-Solving, Optimism

SPEAKER_00 58:30

Thank you. Um it's not gonna happen this time, just putting that out there. The transition, the last part of it, and and one of the things that the podcast is really interesting, but one of the ways that I thank most of the guests is by um not most, but all of the guests is by doing an emotional intelligence assessment. The emotional intelligence assessment tool that I use is the EQI 2.0 uh model, and it's a data-driven way of looking at your self-awareness. This is unlike some of the other assessment tools, it's something that changes based on where you you are. And I'm sure Jamie can see a distinct difference between who I was when I he met me in 2016 to who I became in 2017, who I came home as in 2019, and and some of the changes that I've made since then, right? But there are cool things that are the same, but there is this idea of learning and growing the self-awareness that you'd have on how you can actually show up in the world and have a better impact. So in our situation, Jamie's Jamie had his assessment done. And I Jamie, I wanted to talk to you about anything that actually showed up.

SPEAKER_03 59:39

Jamie had his assessments done. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 59:41

Sorry, sorry, Jamie had her assessment done.

SPEAKER_03 59:43

There you go. Well done.

SPEAKER_00 59:46

Damn I I did hey, I did very well with this. You did up until that moment. Thank you. Thank you, Jamie.

SPEAKER_01 59:54

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 59:55

And and I'm gonna try to gather myself and go, Jamie. If you don't mind sharing, what what did you learn from your assessment, your EQI 2.0 assessment?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:10

Well, I think you you indicated that I I showed up. Well, you you had two points, right? I showed up in a way that was surprising on two of them. One was on empathy, but I scored a lot lower on empathy than you were imagining.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:23

I I did, right? I did share that, right? The empathy part of it. Oh, by the way, I should probably go. The the the EQI assessment has a few scales. It's your internal voice, your external voice. So what you're feeling inside, how constructively you can actually share that information and what you're feeling, how you maintain, develop uh interpersonal relationships, where the empathy portion of it comes in, uh, how you problem solve and how you manage stress, your outlook on the world. So the empathy part of it is in that interpersonal relationship scale. And Jamie's always listened to me. Um, she's always uh been very supportive. So when I looked at the data, I was expecting something outsized on an empathy perspective, but it was much much in a different category, still uh above where it was, but it wasn't as outsized as I would have expected. So just giving that context.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:17

I I think I have a very uh also a very practical approach to the world as well, where we need to get things done. I'm a consultant and you know, we get paid to come up with answers for clients and um and in business, you know, there was a business to lead. And um empathy is always important, but there are, you know, there are times when you need to move forward and you're not necessarily caring for a particular person at that moment, although come back to them later or address it before with them in terms of that type of change or whatever the decisions are that need to be made. But I I do have a very practical approach to accomplishing what we're set out to accomplish on a professional basis. So the problem-solving aspects of things and sort of like how that combats with sort of the empathy I may show up on. I think that's probably where that's that's coming from. And so, yeah, I mean, I I I think that's that may very well be the reason. I have my I'm, you know, like everybody, I'm multifaceted in the way that I think about the world. And um, I have to pivot between various perspectives at times, as we all do. People who can pivot in the moments that they need to probably struggle with relationships. Those who are more capable of pivoting tend to be more successful in relationships. And the more diverse your perspectives are, and the more flexible you are in terms of that diversity, probably even yeah, the more successful. Some people really struggle with empathy or they struggle with decisiveness, or they just and they can't switch to that context for themselves. And therefore, in the moment with a particular situation, they may not be as successful. So probably where that came from is just I I am, I think, a fair bit of empathy associated with how I engage the world, but I also have a fairly practical we need to get things done aside as well, and the problem solving and so forth. You saw that. I think you must have seen that in Indonesia, certainly.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:20

But yeah, I think I think yeah, well, that was definitely a place to see. There's a lot of problem solving and a lot of pivoting. Yes, you have you had a lot of you had a lot of practice in Indonesia. Anything else that popped out at you from the the report?

SPEAKER_03 1:03:38

Well, you indicated that I was, you know, pretty optimistic in the report. And I would tell you that I don't think my inner voice always tells me that I'm optimistic about things. Although as I think about myself and I think through that aspect of the of the report, and your surprise on how optimistic I was, at least I scored, given my circumstances over the last several years.

Rapid Fire And Closing Reflections

SPEAKER_03 1:04:00

Yeah, maybe maybe think a little bit about that as well, because I do have an inner voice that is not optimistic. But over the years, if you think about sort of my it's hard to describe my history, I've always had this negative inner voice telling me because I felt so different from people around me. That voice was strong at times. And I had a very difficult social time as a child. I didn't have any friends at a first period of like four years, um, where it was really tough. I had to cultivate a an internal voice that was different from a very early age to get by and to get through uh a number of the situations. And then the other thing I think that is a test that I I've taken, if you will, assessments have really identified me as somebody who has a really high tolerance for risk. And probably that combined with the experience of needing to cultivate an inner voice has probably come for this positive has probably been the two things that have probably made me the optimistic person that I am, regardless of how challenging the circumstances are today. We will get to a place which is good. We'll eventually get to a dynamic that is good. It's a matter of time, it's a matter of focus, it's a matter of work. Sometimes it really is just only a matter of time. Time needs to pass. Yeah. So I think I've had a lot of practice cultivating that inner voice from a very early age. And uh the tolerance thing is also helpful.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:41

Yeah, you know, it's interesting, and I'll read just from the the report, right? It says that, Jamie, your results show someone who is extensively optimistic and almost always see the world in a positive light. Some character, some characteristics of your results, you approach the world with a glass half-full attitude. You believe in yourself and others and rarely give up prematurely. And you inspire those you work with to overcome challenges. And I think that's that's the the optimism part of it from a work perspective. But what's what I find interesting is as you're trying to find your voice, that new voice, that different voice, as you are changing and transitioning, that you've actually kept that same outlook and that same positive attitude on things. And that's that's differentiated, right? So I think that's why that's why I was like, you know, it's a challenge to feel seen. I think it's one of the things that I struggle with. The judgments or the things that people would get wrong about me. I just had to explain to my neighbor this morning, hey, I was raised in the Caribbean and in the 80s, it's a different place. There are things that you would think that I would. I was telling him that I I went to a bar once in college, and he just thought that that was weird. But we all have a different part of it, right? But in my head, it's like, well, you can ask questions and we could still get to a different place. So that's what I found impressive about it, right? That you are you are still trying to be seen in a way that is different now, and you're still still you're still holding space for individuals to also do the same. So that those are the things that were coming up. But you touched on a lot of it, right? The internal voice, problem solving, optimism. And I I appreciate again the openness to one, take the assessment, but two, to also just share some of the things that you're you're noting, right? So as we're wrapping up, a couple of things. Rapid fire thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:34

Um, nothing on golf. One thing you can't live without in these days, one thing you go through every day with these days.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:42

Can't live without glasses anymore, Nigel. I'm getting old. I'm sorry. It's just like uh I can't read anymore unless I have glasses on.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:50

It's it's really depressing. My focal contacts.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:56

Maybe I gotta look into these things, but yeah, if I have time.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:00

It's a game changer. Okay. So you're glad. All right. Yeah. One quote, phrase, um something that keeps you inspired.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:12

Saying quote. Saying or quote.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:20

I'm not a big follower, generally speaking, and kind of think about well, Winston Churchill said once, it's just not me, uh the type of person that I am. If I think about sort of some of the inner voice things that I I repeat to myself, nothing is as bad as it may seem. Nothing is it may seem to you right now. Okay. Sometimes that is that is meaningful.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:45

Okay. And then if there's one thing you want the guests to remember from this episode or this conversation today, other than that, I'm an amazing person and golfer, what is that one thing you involve too much?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:01

So to be interviewed and talk about that. Just remember that as you go out into the world, they are we, trans people are everywhere. I hope that people are a little bit more aware, like my colleague who is now much more aware of people are trans. You show some kindness towards those people because they are struggling. Oftentimes they're struggling. Not always, but you know, often they are. Yeah, LinkedIn is yeah, there's more coming there. I mean, our company website has my bio on it, but I mean, LinkedIn is probably the place for people. They want to talk to me, message me, reach out, connect with a little message that says, hey, I saw you in the podcast with a little connect type of thing, then I'll I'll know where it's coming from. Yeah, that's probably the easiest way for people who are kinned. Jamie McInnes. I don't know if you're gonna put anything up, but spelling my name, spelling my name correctly, it's always a good thing because that doesn't happen often. So McKinnon's okay. It might be easy, but you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:07

I want to say personally, Jamie, thank you so much for having this conversation with me. You inspire me to continue to be authentic and show up as myself. Again, you were reminded me

Final Thanks And Calls To Connect

SPEAKER_00 1:10:20

to that my perspective matters and how I see the world. And you know, that idea of individuals maybe standing in the same place but having a very different experience. Yeah. And back to that same emotional intelligence aspect of things, that default of being a good human being. I I do see you as an amazing human being. I'm so happy through this transition that you've been the same, you've received me the same way, treated me the same way, and I hope that I will continue to do the same. So thank you for for sharing today. I know this is new for you as well, but showing up in this space, and thank you for for trusting me to have this conversation.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:01

I really appreciate you, and I really appreciate the fact that you wanted to do this. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:08

Absolutely. Thank you. I appreciate you listening to this episode. If you find value in what you've heard today, please like and share, and don't hesitate reaching out to me if there's any way that I can be of service. Nigel at meink help.com or Nigel Franklinway on Instagram. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your mental energy, thank you for listening. And until we meet again in this space, take good care of you.