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Diaries of a Lodge Owner
In 2009, sheet metal mechanic, Steve Niedzwiecki, turned his passions into reality using steadfast belief in himself and his vision by investing everything in a once-obscure run-down Canadian fishing lodge.
After ten years, the now-former lodge owner and co-host of The Fish'n Canada Show is here to share stories of inspiration, relationships and the many struggles that turned his monumental gamble into one of the most legendary lodges in the country.
From anglers to entrepreneurs, athletes to conservationists; you never know who is going to stop by the lodge.
Diaries of a Lodge Owner
Episode 55: From The Heart Of The Fire To The Call Of The Wild with Rick Payne
Ever wondered how to handle a forest fire or call in a bull moose? Join us for an inspiring conversation with Rick Payne, Regional Fire Response Specialist with the Ministry of Natural Resources in Dandryden, Ontario. Rick shares his incredible journey from boots on the ground to a high-ranking position, shedding light on current forest fire events, management plans, and essential protocols. Discover the serendipitous moment that led Rick to become a moose hunting guide and gain invaluable moose hunting strategies and personal stories that define his career.
Rick takes us through decades of advancements in fire detection and management, from the nostalgic days of fire lookout towers to the modern use of infrared satellite imagery. Understand the critical role of timely decision-making and effective communication in firefighting through Rick's firsthand accounts of intense field experiences. We'll also explore the impact of invasive species exacerbated by climate change and the measures taken to control these threats, such as prescribed burns and aerial spraying.
As we transition to the world of moose hunting, Rick details various calling techniques and strategies to attract and hunt moose effectively. Hear about his heart-pounding encounter with a bull moose and a heartfelt thank you to Rick for his invaluable knowledge and camaraderie.
This episode of Diaries of a Lodge Owner is brought to you by Nordic Point Lodge A luxury outdoor experience with five-star service.
Speaker 2:Most fire is good. The only time fire is bad is when it involves people and people. You know value, or things that people see as value, but other than that, fire it fires is the natural occurring. You know something that naturally occurs in the ecosystems and our ecosystems depend upon it this week on the outdoor journal radio podcast networks diaries of a lodge owner.
Speaker 1:We are truly in for an outstanding show. Our guest today is amazing and bar none one of the most knowledgeable, respected and humble gentlemen in his field, the field of forest firefighting and prevention. For multiple decades he has had boots on the ground, involved in every aspect of forest fire fighting. With that steadfast foundation he built a path up the ranks to one of the most important and interesting positions that we never think about. It's like this Imagine a game of chess and there are individual pieces that all have extremely important parts to play, from a pawn to a king, but none can work without the hand and intelligent mind from above. And that is just what he is and it is my pleasure to introduce to all of you Rick Payne. It is my pleasure to introduce to all of you Rick Payne On this show.
Speaker 1:We talk about the road Rick traveled from boots on the ground to his high level position today Current forest fire events, management plans and protocol and situations in his past that have shaped who he is. Today we talk about the serendipitous situation that took place when he won the Diaries of a Lodge owner Nordic Point Lodge giveaway which has turned his passion for moose hunting into a guiding opportunity. And of course, we talk moose hunting and its strategies. This one is packed and one that I I thoroughly enjoyed, and one you can't miss. From the heart of the fire to the call of the wild, hold on folks. You're in for a magnanimous one today. Here's my conversation with Rick Payne. Rick, welcome to Diaries of a Lodge Owner. I really appreciate your time and I'm excited to get into our conversation.
Speaker 2:Good morning Steve. How are you Good to be on.
Speaker 1:I'm doing wonderful.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's great. Yeah, got a nice day here. We've had some thunderstorms the last few days, so it's kind of nice to see the sun shining.
Speaker 1:Amazing. Well, and Rick, I've got a little something on my conscience that I think that I've got to get it out to all of our listeners. And this podcast was actually scheduled for when. Was it Saturday morning to start, and I was involved in my family tradition of butchering chickens on Friday and that process for me to process 50 birds is a long and laborious task. The actual butchering and plucking and cleaning part. My mom and dad and my youngest son, mikey, and my uncle Chuck. We all get together first thing in the morning, you know five o'clock, and that process with all of the hands usually takes us until about noon. But by the time I get all of those birds back home and then I like to process them because my family I found that if you keep the birds whole, the birds whole, we don't utilize the resource or the meat in a way that I'm satisfied with. My family doesn't really like to eat leftovers and I was ending up throwing out more than anything. But I found that if you separate the legs and the thighs and make boneless breasts and do all of that work prior to freezing everything, everything gets used Because we can pull out drumsticks and have drumsticks one night, and everybody, because it's the only thing that you got to eat. Everybody eats everything. You know what I mean to eat. Everybody eats everything. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:So that process took me from about two o'clock in the afternoon when I got back, until the following morning at about 10 am, which was the time that we were supposed to do this and at seven o'clock or somewhere in that neighborhood I realized that I was in no shape because you know what? I'm getting older and for the first time I really struggled with an all-nighter and I texted you saying, hey, can we do this same time tomorrow, which would have been Sunday and you said yeah, graciously. You said no problem, that's fine, and you know I should have went to sleep at that point, but everybody's awake and my wife's got things that she wants done and everything else. So finally I lay my head down at five o'clock in the evening and I slept straight through until about 11 o'clock the next day, right through our podcast that was scheduled with no advanced warning.
Speaker 1:And I called you yesterday afternoon with my hat in hand and apologized. And again I'm going to apologize because that is something that's never happened for me in Diary's history, for sure, but it's hard pressed for me to remember a time when I totally missed a meeting or anything like that. So, um, thank you again for for graciously doing this on, uh, on Monday, which is the third day that it was actually scheduled. So, um, yeah, scheduled. So, yeah, I apologize, no excuse, and I look forward to our conversation.
Speaker 2:So, rick, tell us a little bit about who you are and what your position today is. I guess to start there, steve, I totally understand the farm life. When I was growing up, I worked as a farm hand for a couple of years on a friend's farm and I understand what has to be done and how things operate there. So no hard feelings there. I understand it 100%. Well, thank you. Who am I? Well, I guess it depends on how deep you want to go into this there, steve.
Speaker 1:Well, we're going to get into that part, but just so that, off the top, people know where you are today, what's your title and what do you do Okay.
Speaker 2:Well, currently I work with the. Well, I'm still working with the Ministry of Natural Resources. I am a regional fire response specialist. I function as a regional duty officer here in Dandryden, Ontario. Yeah, Right now we're in the midst of our fire season here in Ontario.
Speaker 1:So now, just so that we've got a clearer picture, and I might be wrong, but the impression I get is you're like the admiral, you're the guy that knows everything about every fire and you are the one that deploys the resources available within the province to fight each one of these fires. So you're the guy looking at the chessboard, is that?
Speaker 2:correct, Correct when you use the term admiral and stuff. You give my wife some ammunition.
Speaker 1:to make fun of me, though, but that there the buck stops with you when it comes to strategically attacking these fires and and, um, the, the, the, the whole aspect of it is just uh, amazing to me. And um, and I'm and I'm glad that I got the, uh, the analogy correct Um, it's kind of like when I owned the lodge, I met a guy by the name of Randy Carlisle and he was really the only guy that I met, and I'm a talker but I was speechless, I was dumbfounded because Randy Carlisle who those of you I'm sure have heard the story before, but he was the general manager and coach of the Toronto Maple Leafs and then, when I met him, was in the same position for the Anaheim Ducks and the reason. After analyzing it, because I was a little bit taken back to that I felt that kind of um admiration for, for the man. He's the guy in the position that controls all of my heroes.
Speaker 1:You know the, the, the, the, the Crosby's heroes. You know the, the, the, the, the Crosby's, the, gretzky's, the, the, the. They're the guys that that look from above and play with the chess pieces, and I liken that to you in your own industry, which is very, very cool. So now that people know where you're at today, my next question is how did you get?
Speaker 2:there. So how did I?
Speaker 1:Yeah, go right back to high school, like, I mean, you went to high school and everything else, but where did the passion come from?
Speaker 2:Well, my passion for the outdoors, I think you know it was instilled in me right from youth. You know I basically, well, I bounced all over southern Ontario when I was young, but kind of my formative years there I settled down around the Owen Sound area of my parents and that's where most of my family was from. But we used to go up into the Killarney country all the time when I was a young fella, um, you know, romping around the, the hills there and, and you know, just just enjoying nature and stuff with my grandmother, and that was just kind of what we did. And, uh, you, you know, my father hunted and fished and we did that regularly. My grandfather he was a forager loved to get out and pick mushrooms and do that kind of stuff. So I kind of, you know, developed that love for the outdoors. So from high school in On Sound I went to well, actually, I moved to Fort Francis for a year, finished my high school there. That's where I met my wife and I went to forestry school in Sault Ste Marie, nice, yeah. So you know, I did a few years in Sault Ste Marie and then I kind of bounced around.
Speaker 2:Well, the 80s was a tough time and the 90s was a tough time to secure a job, especially in the forestry industry. So I bounced around between the forest company and the Ministry of Natural Resources there through the 80s. And then I guess it was 1991, I stuck with the M&R so I started fighting fire, I guess in 1988. Stuck with the M&R, so I started fighting fire I guess in 1988. Got on a fire crew and then stayed with the M&R. I left for a couple years, went back to the forest industry. But in 91, I stayed there and I worked my way through the fire crew system until 2000. I got on staff.
Speaker 2:I moved to Geraldton, which was a great, great learning ground for me. To go to Geraldton. We had a lot of fires in my years when we were in the Nipkin district there, yeah. So through that I did a few years as a fire management technician. I ended up becoming a manager at the Geraldton base. So I managed as a fire operations supervisor there for I don't know, seven years or so. I moved to St Marie for a year. I ran the old fire base there for a year, which it used to actually be located in the old jail there. So that's another story all on its own and then from there I moved to Dryden and became a regional fire specialist and a response specialist and I function as a regional duty officer in the summers.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. So this leads me to the next question. You've been involved with fighting fire for multiple decades, Rick. What is some of the technological changes that you've seen come from the time you started until present day, Like I'm assuming that back when you started there were still fire towers out in the middle of the bush and they were manned by people who basically lived there and watched the bush for fire.
Speaker 2:Yeah, actually you know there's been a lot of changes since I got into fire in the 80s and even one of my first year with the Ministry of Natural Resources. I got a little bit of exposure back in 1982 in Chapleau I was working as a JR, but a little exposure there. But there's been so many changes, like through the 80s and well in prior to that, we used to have.
Speaker 1:So there were those towers that I was talking about.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, we still had towers in the 80s and even right into the 90s. I know we actually built a tower in the Fort Francis district and it was manned for a few years and then in the 90s there was some blowdown.
Speaker 1:So let's talk about how they were manned. Okay, I'm really intrigued. Do the people actually live there, like I mean, is it a job that you can go to for two or three days and then you're spelled out? Is it like a winter caretaker for a lodge and they put you there with a drop of food and you sit in the bush by yourself for months on end? How does that work?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, we don't have towers in Ontario anymore Now. I know some places in BC and stuff. My last trip out to BC I actually went and visited a tower. So generally speaking, yeah, they're in a remote location. You know, some of them were road accessible and you know, if we're going back decades, some of them were probably accessed by canoes and others they had to walk into or whatever. But yeah, they would spend time in there. You know, I'm sure every tower had a different duration of what the person would stay there, but they were in there for a while, like I know the one we had in Fort Francis. The guy would go in there for basically a week. We had a little cabin at the bottom of the tower that he would come down out of the tower and stay there at night, but basically all of his waking hours he'd be up in the tower.
Speaker 1:That's very cool, and they would have telescopes or um just binoculars binoculars.
Speaker 2:um, actually they're pretty neat, uh like so so in the tower itself that they'd have a big map in in the center of the tower and it was basically set up on a compass so that they'd sit there with binoculars and then, you know, try to scan the area around the tower all day long, and when they spotted something, that they'd line up the compass and stuff in the tower there towards the smoke and then they'd estimate the distance from the tower.
Speaker 1:That's cool, that's very cool. And then report the fire with their estimated coordinates Correct, with a radio Yep, very cool. Sorry for cutting you off, so moving on from the towers, the whole thing is very romantic, if you will being able to Now. Was it always one person or did they send pairs?
Speaker 2:I can't really answer that one. I think it was generally just one person. One person, yeah.
Speaker 1:The thought of being out in nature for a week or two and just by yourself and scanning the horizon, and yeah, that, uh, that's, uh, that is a very cool thought.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, but um, moving on from that, so that's basically how fire detection happened up until what oh, through the through the 70s I guess, and into the 80s, they transitioned away from towers and into fixed-wing aircraft and detection.
Speaker 2:Now, and still to this day, we do rely a lot on the public and public aircraft and stuff. That's a whole big piece of our, our internal uh detection program on what we we think you know they'll find certain amount of fires, yeah so so we actually will look at that and say, okay, this is a heavy corridor for fixed wing aircraft already. We're not going to fly that area. So we look at some of that stuff, we'll look at some of that stuff and then we look at you know where's our greatest hazard, where's the, the lightning being, you know where do we think we're going to get the fires? And then we'll focus our efforts on those areas. Now we have, I think, 10 detection aircraft for the whole province of Ontario. So you can imagine 10 aircraft really can't cover off northern Ontario in one day. So we stagger those routes and try to get the best coverage we can and try to find fires as quickly as possible.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And just to give people an idea of the size of the landmass in Ontario, if you took the southernmost tip of Ontario and flipped it over, folded it to the south, the northern tip of Ontario would end up in the Gulf of Mexico Like it is a massive, massive landmass and you've got 10 aircraft.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I think I think, uh, between the east fire region and the west fire region that I work in, um I think combined we have roughly 95 million hectares of wow to look after.
Speaker 1:Yeah in that. I bet you and this is just a thought I bet you 50% of the countries on this planet would fit inside that.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, roughly say we would be the size of Egypt. Well, a little bigger than Egypt size of Nigeria. That sort of you know it's a large landmass, for sure.
Speaker 1:That's crazy, that's crazy, that's crazy. So, um. So basically, your technology now is is aircraft um, is there anything else that you use, like um satellite imagery or heat, um signatures and and stuff like that?
Speaker 2:yes, there is so, so and and just recently, like within the past 10 years, but really even more so in the last three, four, five years we've really started to use that infrared satellite imagery.
Speaker 2:I know, every day I go in to work and when I open up my computer I go in to work and when I open up my computer I open up I think it's 37 windows for weather and stuff just weather alone. And one of the things I do pull up is satellite imagery and I look at that every day and it's amazing how many fires we actually find, like last week I actually outperformed detection just with the satellite imagery. Wow, yeah, so it is becoming used more and more often Now. The one thing with satellite imagery is and we haven't really sat down because it's in its infancy, in use, but we actually got to sit down and figure out how many hotspots are actual fires that we see and how many are wild goose chases, because it does get expensive chasing the wild goose there. But at the same time you know if we can find a fire small, then you know the cost to put out a small fire compared to a large fire is just staggering.
Speaker 1:So that's awesome. Yeah, it is. It's pretty neat stuff. Yeah, have we basically covered the technology that we, that you use to detect so far, or is there anything else?
Speaker 2:Primarily, that's it. It, like you know, we, we have our fixed wing program, our aerial detection, we, we have the, the public aircraft, the public themselves uh, you know, they're highway corridors and and and on the railways, the trains it's amazing how many fires that they'll. They'll actually get called in on those. So we have, I guess, the primary way for the public to call us and we do get most of our fires this way, at least human-caused fires is our 310 fire line. So that's just a number that you can call and it'll direct you to somebody to deal with any fires in Ontario.
Speaker 1:Perfect, so let's just talk about that very quickly. You say 310 Fireline. Is that just simply picking up your cell phone and dialing 310? Correct?
Speaker 2:And then fire, which is 3473.
Speaker 1:So for all of you folks out there listening and I for one, um, I called in a couple of fires over my tenure at chaudiere that um that had started from lightning strikes on the river. But I had no idea that there was something as simple as 310 fire, the 310 fire line I was. I was phoning the the opp uh to to let them know, and then they would know, and then I guess they would phone 310. So that's a very important number that any of us cottagers or lodge owners or anybody driving through the north that sees smoke or fire can call.
Speaker 2:Yes, or if you're know that's, 9-1-1 will always work too.
Speaker 1:they'll redirect and they'll actually call us perfect um, so my next question um, I've always heard, uh, that fire is a natural occurring phenomenon, which I'm pretty sure that's a true statement. Throughout the history of time, fire has been a natural occurring phenomenon. Is there good fire?
Speaker 2:Yes, most fire is good. The only time fire is bad is when it involves people and people value or things that people see as value, but other than that fire is just a natural occurring, something that naturally occurs in the ecosystems, and our ecosystems depend upon it.
Speaker 1:That's great. And how many of the fires that you see do you let burn? And how do you know when too much is too much?
Speaker 2:much so here in Ontario, our fire management strategy is basically we call it appropriate response so we will respond to every fire, every incident that's reported to us, and we'll go out and we'll look at that fire and we'll make a determination of whether we need to to fight that fire, um, or we, if we can allow it to burn. So so we do that for every fire, no matter where it's located. So so we have a, you know, a checklist of of things that we look at and and if, if we can allow it to burn, then we would like to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, and on that checklist is one of the criteria protecting a monetary asset. So do you look at certain areas that potentially have good lumber and is that an area that you would protect, or can fire sweep through the undergrowth and not kill all of the mature trees? I'm interested to know because I've flown over, I've had the pleasure to shoot with the Fish and Canada television show and a couple of years ago we did a couple of shoots where we were in outpost camps and flew over burning fire. And I'm interested to know can fire sweep through an area and not devastate all of the mature trees?
Speaker 2:state all of the mature trees. Oh, by all means, when a fire moves across the landscape, when it's burning unchecked and we're not doing anything to manipulate it in any way, unless it's very dry and explosive, then when it's like that, by all means it'll take out pretty much everything. But for the most part, fire will go through an area and it'll kind of pick and choose the unhealthy trees and burn them and burn the fallen trees and dead stuff on the forest floor. For the most part uh, you know, unless it's extreme indices it'll it'll just take out portions and patches of trees that's very interesting that you said that, because that's what I saw from the air.
Speaker 1:It, it, it looked like a um, uh, a whole area that it had no rhyme or reason why it went this way and why it left clumps of growth in the middle without seemingly touching it, and that explains a lot, and that's where my mind went when I was looking from the top down, and so that is very interesting and I think that. So one of I guess one of the criteria you look at is how dry and how much fuel is available to the fire in your assessment.
Speaker 2:It is. So one of the things that we do look at is the health of the forest. You know, is it a young, healthy forest? Is it an over mature, a decadent forest that's beginning to die? It's, you know, kind of reached maturity and is soon going to be, and is susceptible to disease and wind throw and all those forces of nature that just will eventually deteriorate a forest until Mother Nature herself decides to reclaim it.
Speaker 1:That's right. So when you're planning your strategies, you're obviously looking at different forests and assessing which ones are at risk and which ones aren't, and then you make your plan from there there's people, there are people present.
Speaker 2:is there values? People values, homes, is it? You know, one of the big things for us in Ontario is what we call the area of the undertaking. So the area of the undertaking is basically the landmass in Ontario that is spoken for through forest companies and whatnot in Ontario that is spoken for through forest companies and whatnot. And then there's an area north of that that there's no, you know, nobody has claim to those trees or anything up there. So that makes our life much easier when we get into the north, because there's no stakeholders involved when it comes to the trees themselves.
Speaker 1:Gotcha. So that leads me into current day situations and I've found a clip regarding Jasper, and we all know that has been dealt with a tragic fire, and this clip actually is from 2016, I believe, and it's from the House of Commons, and I'd like to play it for everybody and get your take on it, if you don't mind, okay.
Speaker 4:Mr Speaker, jasper National Park, one of Canada's major tourist destinations, has been devastated by the pine beetle infestation. Much of the forest is dead or dying. The dead trees are a tremendous fuel load and present a significant risk to the community of Jasper. Residents are concerned for their own safety and that of the visitors and the security of their homes, with a high risk of wildfires fueled by a forest devastated by the pine beetle, have the Liberals put a plan in place to protect this park? The Honourable Minister of Environment and Climate.
Speaker 3:Change. Thank you, mr Speaker. Our government is absolutely committed to the ecological integrity of our national parks. That is my first priority as a minister. We are working very hard in all of our parks, including Jasper National Park. I look forward to talking to the member further about this and seeing how we can move forward. Thank you, I'm not deputy.
Speaker 1:I look forward to talking to the member further about this and seeing how we can move forward. Thank you.
Speaker 2:So after listening to that, my first question is how much influence does the federal government have over yourself and the plans that are put in place to prevent fire? So at our level and I'm speaking on behalf of Ontario and not Alberta or BC it has very, very little Like, at least at my level. Federal government generally will give us earmarked money for us to do certain things, but I don't think they get into the actual operational part of it and tell us exactly how and where to spend the money. They'll say it's earmarked for this, but it's up to us to choose where we would spend that money.
Speaker 1:And that's the right way of doing it in my opinion. So the other thing that caught my interest in that is they've cited the pine beetle and here in Ontario, at least southern Ontario right now we're dealing with an epidemic with the emerald ash borer and just about every ash tree in the southern end of this province has died as a result. So I'm assuming that this pine beetle does the same to pine trees, and my question is what are the factors leading to these tragedies? And two that come to the top of my mind. Number one obviously the pine beetle is killing pine trees, which leaves dead standing wood in the bush, which makes a perfect fuel.
Speaker 1:The other is something that has been trumpeted for, I'm going to say, the last decade or maybe decades, and that's global warming, global climate change, global. You know things and I'm not. I don't want to get into the debate or the thoughts about what climate change is and what causes it, because I think every Canadian, at least living in areas like Southern Ontario, where I'm from, have definitely seen a changing climate Like I mean. You know, I didn't even put my snowblower on the front of my tractor in the last two years. I had to clean my driveway out twice front of my tractor. In the last two years I had to clean my driveway out twice, so there's definitely changes. But how do the factors play together and what is the most important outlying issue that triggers your system into saying this is high risk?
Speaker 2:Okay, well, to begin with, global warming, it's here. It's real Global climate change. It's real Global climate change. Like you know, face it. We live on a planet where our climate has never been static in the life of our planet. Absolutely.
Speaker 2:It's always changing. Now, something in the 1900s accelerated whatever was going on right, like, basically, we're coming out of an ice age still, you know it takes millions of years, but some has accelerated it and we're seeing that Our forests are showing the effects of climate change. You know, we're seeing drier forests. We're seeing, you know, warmer winters, like you speak of. So one thing with the mountain pine beetle and I learned this because the infestation of the mountain pine beetle has been going on for at least 25 years now.
Speaker 2:In the early 2000s I attended a conference in Sault Ste Marie. It was a national fire manager's conference and at that time we were discussing the mountain pine beetle. Then and I think that was 2001, it was 2000 or 2001, so we're going back quite at quite some time and at that time we talked about the devastating effects and what was to come. And now you know, and now we're seeing those effects and it was everything that that was forecasted back in that conference, back in 2001, I believe it was. So you know, the mountain pine beetle would normally be wiped out due to cold winters. You know, a successive days or weeks of minus 30 or 35 below would kill it off, and we're not seeing that anymore and we're seeing that right across our forests.
Speaker 2:Like you spoke of the emerald ash borer, and that's an invasive species. But we're getting in northern northwestern Ontario and northern northeastern Ontario right now we have the spruce budworm and the jack pine budworm and they're making a resurgence right now. You know, here in Ontario we're seeing the effects of that here at home also. But yeah, you know the mountain pine beetle, it's been there for some time. Yeah, it primarily affects the lodge pool pine out out in in bc and alberta and and but you know they're they're saying with the lack of cold weather, it could possibly come across the northern uh boreal forest and make its way through manitoba and into ontario itself too. It's just the weather has changed that much Really.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just wonder have you heard of any way to combat the beetle? I know that cold weather combats the beetle, but it's pretty tough to create that minus 30 over, you know, a couple of weeks everywhere. Um, has there been any research that you've heard of to try and uh, mitigate or control that threat?
Speaker 2:um, I know they looked at like through the 2000s. Um, they really tried to to try to get in front of the mountain pine beetle but its population exploded so quickly and it was so devastating through BC and then it leached into Alberta and and and now it's, you know, it's sort of coming across the Northern Boreal area I'm not sure it must be making its way to Saskatchewan by now and into the territories. So, um, but yeah it's's, it's hard to get in front of that. Yeah, it exploded so quickly on them that that and it was it was a new issue, right? Um, so you know, so I'm not sure if they've tried aerial spraying, if if they have, like I know, in ontario, here we're actually trying to combat the jack pine budworm with some aerial spraying of the really heavily infested areas.
Speaker 1:Areas, yeah, yeah, about the factors and which one is most important leading towards these critical areas. That's a difficult question to answer because they go hand in hand, right? Yeah, the reason that the pine beetle is flourishing is because of the climate that's changing. And um, uh, that's leaving, and I can just I can't even imagine the amount of dead standing um bush that it's left in its wake, and um, and and the the bomb that's weighed. Well, we saw the effect in Jasper. So, having said that, now that we know that we've got all of this fuel in the bush and it's creating, obviously from that clip in 2016, they were very concerned about that area of jasper in particular, but that's, that's just one area. I'm sure there's hundreds of thousands of hectares out there that are, that are are affected. What is um, some of the um, what are some of the mechanical things that you are, that not you in particular but that the forest firefighting community are trying to implement to prevent it? One thing that comes to mind is prescribed burns, yeah.
Speaker 2:But there may be more thin an area and to reduce some of the standing trees and then to burn it. Or just to you know, just go out and pick areas and when it's you know, have the optimal conditions and the right winds and the planets aligned, then you burn it if you can, if you can get the approvals to do it then you burn it if you can, if you can get the approvals to do it.
Speaker 1:I can imagine it must be extremely difficult, with the way that our government is run to in a timely manner get the proper approvals to do something like that, and it's got to be. For a person in your position looking at something like that in BC. It's got to be terrifying to light a match in a tinderbox and then try and control it.
Speaker 2:It's very difficult and you know what the biggest part about what makes it difficult is is you know the the fire folks themselves when they go in they know that you're going to have excursions, that's. You know that's what we call an area outside of our allowable burn area or whatever. But we, we know sometimes we're going to have those excursions and stuff. But the public perception of that is so great that so many times that we won't burn an area because we know we're going to get a small excursion or certain things are going to happen and we as fire people could live with that. Live with that. But the public perception of us not being able to control what we light in a lot of cases will impede people from putting fire on the ground yeah, which is unfortunate.
Speaker 1:Is there any other effective way to deal with it?
Speaker 2:not really like there's. You know that, that's mother's way mother nature's way of of reclaiming an ecosystem is to burn it and reset the clock on it and let it regrow and develop back into a healthy forest. The only way that we can mimic that itself is really to burn it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I agree wholeheartedly. And so when you do these prescribed burns, what are some of the factors that you use to mitigate? Pick, uh, very secure boundaries, so like that, and that's easily said here in ontario, right? Um, you've flown over northern ontario, you've seen a number of lots of lakes and streams and rivers, so.
Speaker 2:So in ontario we have a much easier time of picking a boundary and having it and containing it, and containing it and making sure it's secure and then.
Speaker 2:So, once you have established your boundaries, those are a little more difficult, of course, in the mountains and stuff, because you're using drainages and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:But it's ignition patterns, it's how you ignite it Really, when you look at a burn, the way I always look at a burn when I was burning was I have an infinite amount of energy on the ground and the energy is located here, here, here and here. So how do I want to release that energy? So that it will, you know it will pull fire here, it will cause extreme fire here and and, and you know, get it to basically all come to the center and and not want to run outside of of your established boundaries. So ignition pattern is a big one and then we'll do engineering on the boundaries themselves too, just to help secure them. So you may go put in a cut line, you may put it in a sprinkler line or something down there. I've done all kinds of different things. We actually had a prescribed burn when I was in Geraldton and we put in a cut line and then we put I think it was close to two miles of sprinklers.
Speaker 1:Wow. So how wide are the cut lines?
Speaker 2:so this was about a 30 meter like it was clean, no standing trees or anything. So we were burning. We weren't burning standing tip where we were doing a cut over, so it makes it much easier. So we just wanted to contain it to to the cut block itself. So we just made sure that one edge was was cleaned up and tidied up and then I took and dug a few holes to collect water in areas where there wasn't water and, yeah, we, we set up this. Uh, very, uh. Well, it took quite, a quite a while just to engineer it to move water for two miles. We had water source on either end, but yeah, it was a feat all in its own that.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's amazing, that's very cool. And you know, the thing that you said that really rang true with me is how it's easier in Ontario because you've got so much water with lakes and rivers and streams and everything else. So if you're doing we'll just call it square I know nothing is square, but just for ease of the thought, when you've got three of the four sides of your square that are already buffered by water and you only have to point all of your resources to the one side of the square, it makes things so much easier. Where it sounds like in BC, you've got a man, three of the four sides or maybe more, to do this, and I can see how difficult it is to manage that kind of feat.
Speaker 2:I think, like when you're dealing in the mountains, you know it's quite obviously you're not going to build a. You know build a. Quite obviously you're not going to build a. You know build a line with any sort of equipment or anything like that You're probably going to use. You know certain features on the mountains themselves. Maybe you know, like, the north side of that mountain is going to have a higher moisture content and we're going to rely on that, slowing it down or stopping it or, or you know, at least trying to keep it in place.
Speaker 1:So, so definitely they're using different, uh geographic features than what we would use and just the thought of of the mechanics in in the systems that they would have to set up to pump water, like I imagine that that sprinkler line that you sent up or set up, um, the the head pressure was, was not great. Like I mean, you're probably going up and down 20 feet maybe, maybe more here or there, but when you're talking about thousands of meters up the side of a mountain just to pump water in that kind of capacity is a ridiculous feat in its own right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's pretty much impossible. Like you know, the pumps that we have can only lift water so far, so high. So normally, like anytime I've been out working in the mountains, what I've always tried to do is try to find a water source above the area that I need to work, and then somehow and use gravity, and use gravity, yeah, and use gravity feed, and then sometimes you actually have to bleed off pressure because, depending on the elevation change, just the weight of the water from gravity alone is too much pressure on the nozzle.
Speaker 1:Yeah for sure. Very interesting. In every angler's heart lives a fishing paradise With stunning scenery and wildlife on a trophy, multi-species fishery, having outstanding accommodation and a food experience to die for. They treat you like royalty, tailor-making a package that works for you. Nestled in northwestern Ontario, nordic Point Lodge is that paradise, and Will and his team can't wait to show you a luxury outdoor experience with five-star service. So follow your heart Book now. Hi everybody, I'm Angelo Viola and I'm Pete Bowman. Now you might know us as the hosts of Canada's favorite fishing show.
Speaker 3:But now we're hosting a podcast. That's right. Every Thursday, Ang and I will be right here in your ears bringing you a brand new episode of Outdoor Journal Radio. Hmm.
Speaker 1:Now, what are we going to talk about for two hours every week?
Speaker 3:Well, you know there's going to be a lot of fishing.
Speaker 5:I knew exactly where those fish were going to be and how to catch them, and they were easy to catch. Yeah, but it's not just a fishing show.
Speaker 4:We're going to be talking to people from all facets of the outdoors, from athletes All the other guys would go golfing.
Speaker 2:Me and Garth and Turk and all the Russians would go fishing.
Speaker 4:To scientists.
Speaker 5:To chefs. And whoever else will pick up the phone.
Speaker 4:Wherever you are, Outdoor Journal Radio seeks to answer the questions and tell the stories of all those who enjoy being outside.
Speaker 3:Find us on Spotify, apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 6:As the world gets louder and louder, the lessons of our natural world become harder and harder to hear, but they are still available to those who know where to listen. I'm Jerry Ouellette and I was honoured to serve as Ontario's Minister of Natural Resources. Who know where to listen? I'm Gerry Ouellette and I was honoured to serve as Ontario's Minister of Natural Resources. However, my journey into the woods didn't come from politics. Rather, it came from my time in the bush and a mushroom. In 2015, I was introduced to the birch-hungry fungus known as chaga, a tree conch with centuries of medicinal use by Indigenous peoples all over the globe.
Speaker 6:After nearly a decade of harvest use, testimonials and research, my skepticism has faded to obsession and I now spend my life dedicated to improving the lives of others through natural means. But that's not what the show is about. My pursuit of the strange mushroom and my passion for the outdoors has brought me to the places and around the people that are shaped by our natural world. On Outdoor Journal Radio's Under the Canopy podcast, I'm going to take you along with me to see the places and meet the people that will help you find your outdoor passion and help you live a life close to nature and under the canopy Find Under the Canopy now on Spotify, apple Podcasts or wherever else you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1:So now I'd like to kind of shift a little bit and talk about what I'm going to call boots on the ground and, rick, obviously, to get to where you are today and to have this abundance of information that you built up over your career. You got a ton of it from experience, yeah, and I'd like to ask you a little bit about some of the most memorable moments during fire and that might be when you had the shit scared out of you, or that might be a triumph, or just pick a couple of the most memorable situations that you've been involved with in your career.
Speaker 2:Gee, you know it's been a long career. And I wouldn't want to go into some of the scarier things that I've seen, but you know really some of them I'd love to.
Speaker 2:well, you know well um it doesn't matter, this is a very memorable one, because it was, uh, I was early in my career and and and at that point where I was, you know, really still learning a lot and how to deal with fire. So we were asked to go in on a fire. We were doing initial attack, but this was a fire that was growing quickly. So back in the 90s we actually would use ignition ourselves on initial attacks, would use ignition ourselves on initial attacks, so our job was to go in, burn off this peninsula, put in a hose line across. So then we put a hose line across and then we were going to burn out from our hose line. That was our mission for the morning. Now, early in the day, we had already been burnt out of another spot. I remember we were in there for about five minutes and I called the helicopter back and I said you want to take our packs with us or with you, because I don't want to leave them here? And it wasn't. 10 minutes later fire scooted across there and would have burnt our packs, but this was later in the morning. We were making a second attempt. So we had our hose line in and everything and our crew leader went back to the pump. Just to make sure, you know, the pump wasn't going to kick out during our burnout or anything. So he was checking all that.
Speaker 2:So it was me and this other crew member up I was like the second in command at that point in my career. So you know, we were sitting there and we could hear this noise coming and it's like what is that? It's like a train coming at you. And then it was like, okay, we know what that is. So we're trying to get on the radio to tell this guy okay, we got to get going here, we got to burn this out right away, got to get going here, we got to burn this out right away. And and, uh, somehow we lost radio communications and and we held in there right to the to the very bitter end. Um, and then finally we could, you know, we could see it was bearing down on us.
Speaker 2:So so we just abandoned ship, left our hose, we left everything there and just kind of scooted our way back to to the site and we got there. And you know it was maybe a thousand feet away and we got there. So we were kind of dependent on the helicopter to come and pick us up. So we're sitting there and the fire's burning around the one side of the pond on us and suddenly the helicopter flies in and I remember the guy in the helicopter. He says hurry up, hurry up. He says it's goddamn hot here. So so so I was like, jumped in, was like no shit, it's freaking hot, man, like where the hell you been? So, yeah, that was a really memorable one. There was a you know, maybe a little bit more said than that, but, um, oh yeah, it might have been.
Speaker 1:Yeah well, it's got to be so intimidating, like at at what point and I'm sure this crossed your mind um, did you think about jumping into the water source that you were drawing from, because that might be your only way of survival?
Speaker 2:so did that thought ever cross your mind? We were already in in the pond up to our necks, uh, shielding ourselves, shielding ourselves with our hard hats, and yeah, and then they flew in, and yeah, that's what they said. Oh it's hot here, hurry up. It's like, yeah, no shit, well I guess it was hot, no doubt Holy.
Speaker 1:That I couldn't like. I mean, that situation is something that I could hardly imagine, you know. And the smoke, the smoke, well, I guess when you're that close to the fire is there smoke, not like that.
Speaker 2:It was lifting it up and we weren't really in smoke, but for me that was a learning moment on. You know, there was a lot when the hell to abandon ship. There was a lot of things that broke down on that day for that to occur for us. So for me to sit back and analyze that there was a lot of things. Communications was a huge one.
Speaker 1:Well, what did let's?
Speaker 2:analyze? I can't. There's a lot of other variables involved that I can't really talk about and that were settled elsewhere. Yeah, gotcha, yeah, there was some breakdown really talk about and that were settled elsewhere. But yeah, yeah, gotcha, it was. Yeah, there was some breakdowns there. So it was very memorable and a real learning moment for me for my career to remember that and take that forward and make sure a lot of those things that occurred that day didn't happen not on my shift at least.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, day didn't happen, not on my shift at least. Yeah, yeah, well, it kind of. If there's a comparison to farming, with that situation and lessons that you learn, um, I learned a lesson like that when I was young and that lesson was never turn your back on a bull, oh, oh, yes, and that it seems like it's a parallel. Right, you can never turn your back on a bull, and those are the learning situations that make the person that you are today, that you know. When you learn those hard lessons because you don't get that in school, I don't care how much a a professor or a teacher can, or or a person like yourself can look students in the eye and say, hey, you know what? This is, the, this is this. This could go down Like this is a, this is a dangerous job and and you need to understand that there's this and this and this, and it's an amazing learning curve for sure. I'm just thankful that you didn't end up boiled in that pond.
Speaker 2:No, we probably would have been all right, but it was hot while the fire was passing and stuff, but it's hard to say. Eventually it may have flanked us too, so but yeah, no. Well, you know, like education and schooling and and all that stuff you read is is good, it gives you the theory behind things, right. But but getting out there and doing it, doing it, rightions, prove what theory cannot Absolutely Experience. You can't underestimate its worth.
Speaker 1:That's right. It's a lot of where you find out whether you're going to panic or not and if you panic in any situation like that, it does no good to anybody and I think the schooling and the preparation and all of the knowledge that you can give to the up-and-coming forest firefighters prepares them so they don't panic and keep a straight mind right.
Speaker 2:That's where your training comes in. The more training you do, then you know what to do in those scenarios and how to get yourself out of trouble before it gets to that point. That's the more important thing right To recognize the factors that are going to get you into trouble and get yourself out of trouble before it occurs.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Any other stories. You think trouble and and get yourself out of trouble before it occurs. Absolutely any other uh, any other uh stories.
Speaker 2:You think we, uh, we would uh enjoy um, oh gosh, I got so many, but you know, you know what one.
Speaker 2:One of the most memorable things for me and it's weird, but it was, you know, after I was still on a crew, so it would have been in the in the 1990s, you know, I was out in BC and it was I think it was my first trip out to BC actually and after it was all said and done, we, you know I, had a great trip.
Speaker 2:We, I did a lot of things, led to a bunch of people, but it was the reflection, um, standing having a coffee at 4, 30 or 5 in the morning as the sun's coming up, on the runway to fly home, and I was standing there and listening to all the people around me tell their stories, and I was just looking at my crew and the smile on their face and and just sitting there, reflecting back upon, you know, the, the past few weeks that I just had and everything it was just that morning sitting there on that runway is something that always comes back to me is just, uh, I had a great time and and I, you know, just always really remember that moment wonderful moment and and that's the juice, those the the sense of accomplishment, that that you and your crew went out and completed a very, very difficult task and did it to the best of your ability and it and it worked out and and that's the juice I I'm sure that it's.
Speaker 1:It's it's those memories and situations that kept you engaged with what you do to this day, and I can tell by listening to you how um invested and how much you you you love and how invested and how much you love and appreciate the position that you're in.
Speaker 2:And it's a wonderful thing. Oh, it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Gee we didn't even touch on what I do.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, what do you do?
Speaker 2:Oh well, in my job now as a duty officer, like the regional duty officer itself, I basically look after half of that land mass of Ontario at least the fire, the inside the fire region, what we call it.
Speaker 2:Fire, the inside the fire region, what we call it. So I look after organizing all of the resources. So we have seven fire bases here with crews we usually have a hundred or so fire crews here in the region I look after what alerts they're on and where they'll be based out of. We get helicopters for them. So we make sure that we have helicopters at the bases and I put them on alert. We have the detection program that identify the routes and when and where we'll fly detection water bombers on alerts. So deploying the water bombers and then staging them where we need them, and then we take the fire calls in our office and then deploy the resources out to the fires as they occur. And then it kind of managed those fires from a regional perspective. Right now we're a little bit slow here in Ontario, so my last few weeks have been very busy deploying people to Western Canada and resources, helicopters, tankers.
Speaker 1:It must be such a gratifying position to know and not only gratifying but possibly a little bit stressful to have all of those resources at your fingertips and to be able to be in the position where you've gained all of the knowledge throughout your career and you can properly employ all of these resources where they're needed. And the boots on the ground, the guys that are out there, those are the guys that you're supporting. They, those are the guys that you're supporting. So now I take it back to that coffee on the on the tarmac watching the sunrise. Now you're doing that on multiple fronts and setting up these people to be successful. And that is that is such a wonderful position to be in, especially when you have the confidence to know what is needed.
Speaker 2:And all my knowledge and experience and apply it to what I do and try to keep people safe. Because of my knowledge you know that's what I strive to do every day is provide as safe of a work environment as what we possibly can. And you know we always said that the only heroes out there come home and try to collect their checks. We don't want anybody putting themselves in danger. So you know we've got to try and do everything we can to keep ourselves safe. But, you know, perform our duties. But everybody's got to try to do their best to look out for themselves and the person beside them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. Now I have another question, and this will be the last question in this realm of our conversation. I know that when there were fires in Alberta a couple of years ago I'm not even sure when it was, but the general public was wanting to help and construction companies were going out with bulldozers and trying to help people and and um, uh, I remember they were told not to to to do that. Um and I can see it from both sides Like people are wanting to protect their property. Yet when you're kind of the conductor of this wonderful concert, it's pretty tough to have people trying to help when they have no idea what the hell they're doing. Trying to help when they have no idea what the hell they're doing. Is there, in your opinion, a way that the general public can be used as a resource efficiently, or is it just best for people to listen to the authorities and leave that task to the people that are trained?
Speaker 2:to the people that are trained. Ideally, yeah, it's best to leave it to the trained people. Just the presence of the public being there may not allow us to do certain operational things that we need to do to contain the fire. So we may not be able to bring water bomber aircraft in or whatever, because there's people on the fire. So you know, we may not be able to bring water bomber aircraft in or whatever, because there's people on the ground, and if people get hit by a load of water they're going to be injured.
Speaker 2:So just by having people present, it impedes our operations and doesn't allow us, for the most part, to do what needs to be done. Now, on the other hand, if you're a homeowner or somebody and there's a fire there and nobody's arrived yet and you want to try to do your best to help save your structure or whatever, then by all means I would do what it takes to save my property until the professionals arrive, and then they'll tell you. You know, if they want you to continue your efforts, they'll let you know. Or if they ask you to leave, then you probably should, because you're just going to end up being in the way.
Speaker 1:Yeah wonderful answer Makes total sense to me, and that is that's a wonderful answer, bottom line. So now I'd like to totally shift gears and talk a little bit about the fact that you've been a Diaries of a Lodge Owner listener. Thank you very much. I really appreciate it. And you actually won our Nordic Point giveaway on the fishandcanadacom website. That we did beginning of this year and I just want to talk about that situation and all of the nuances and serendipities that have arose from it. First, starting that it was a North American-wide contest and you won it and you're literally what a 40-minute drive to Nordic Point Lodge from your home.
Speaker 2:Yeah, roughly an hour, but as crow flies it's probably about 30 miles, because I have to drive all the way around. I'm going to go over and visit Will by snow machine in the winter here It'll probably be quicker going by snowmobile cross country than driving around very cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So, number one, your geographical location was ridiculous and um, um, the other thing that, uh, that has well, wow and the fact that you were that close. I got to meet you in person when we did our first shoot of the year, which was at Nordic Point, and since then I'm pretty sure that you've been helping Will out a little bit at his operation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have. It's a funny story, steve, like, as soon as I won that contest, my wife and I kind of kind of laughed um and said you know what the heck are the chances that that I would enter this contest and win? And and it's like you know I can say 30 miles from my home, but yeah, so it was great. So before well, obviously you contacted me, told me I won, we had our discussion, it was great.
Speaker 1:One of the highlights of my Diaries of a Lodge Owner tenure. By the way, I'm sure.
Speaker 2:But so I won and, with it being so close, I went up and introduced myself to Will and you know we got to talking and I said hey, how's it going? And it's funny because I've always been well, I've been a guide on and off in my spare time for years. I really like to guide for moose, but I still I do fishing and stuff. So I got talking to Will and asked him like, hey, do you, do you need a moose guide? Like I haven't really guided since COVID, I want to get back into the moose guiding and stuff. And he said, yeah, yeah, I actually do need a moose guide. So so, so we kind of struck up a bit of a friendship there and now, like obviously that friendship has grown, I just went and did my trip, actually last week with my wife, our Diaries of a Lodge Owner trip. We had a wonderful time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I had the pleasure of crossing over one night with my family, and we all met.
Speaker 2:Yes, we did get to meet.
Speaker 1:And how was the trip?
Speaker 2:Oh, it was awesome. Like I say, it was nice to meet you, melissa and your kids, and the trip itself was awesome. We had Will and Chris. That just treated us wonderfully. Will and Krista just treated us wonderfully. The one night that we were up there we actually got it so that our anniversary was during our trip. Will and Krista actually, happy anniversary, thank you. They actually came down and served us in our cab in our anniversary dinners rather than in the lodge, so that was the kind of service that was provided. It was great. The food was the kind of service that that you know was provided. It was great. The food was wonderful. The accommodations were good. Yeah, it was a beautiful touch.
Speaker 1:And they're such nice people, will and Krista, that's, that's amazing. So I'd love to talk a little bit about the moose guiding and and your moose hunting experience, because it became very evident to me when we were on the shoot. You spent a couple of days with us and on the one evening after dinner you brought a handmade fiberglass moose call which looks like, if you know, for all you folks out there listening, you know that Ricola commercial where he's got that real long horn that he stands on the rock. Well, if you cut that bottom of the horn off and had something that you could hold on to, this is what you brought in and it was handcrafted by none other than yourself. And you did a bunch of calls for us, and first I just like to explore the fact that there are actually different calls.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that Moose call always gets quite the. I don't know it's more popular than I am. Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:It was outstanding.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's something actually I've been considering maybe taking that to market. It does really. It sounds I think you should. It sounds so good that call Like yeah.
Speaker 1:And not only sounds good, it looks good, like I mean, it's mean, and the construction is that you can throw it on a rope behind the quad and drag her through the bush and it shows nowhere. Like I mean, it's rugged, it's awesome, it's light, and maybe you could just kind of go through what the different calls are and when you would use them.
Speaker 2:Okay, so well. That night I went through a series of calls, so I think I did well. I have bull calls and I have cow calls that I use.
Speaker 1:I have bull calls and I have cow calls that I use, so you can target the sex of a moose by calling, and obviously a call is to bring the animals to you, so you don't have to trudge through the bush to find them.
Speaker 2:Correct. So I usually like to find a nice vantage point myself and call from it. Like for me, I don't like to go into the well, I hunt the deep woods, but I don't like to shoot the moose in an awkward spot, so it's easier to bring the moose out to a nice location.
Speaker 1:And that's a lot of work in itself.
Speaker 2:It is. So, yeah, I have various calls. So for bull calls I have what I call. I have basically three calls. So I have the friend call, which is just normally a couple of low grunts on their own, and that's when I come into an area and I'll usually take and maybe rake a couple of times and let out a couple of those calls and that's just to see if there's another moose in the area and if I can get a response from them.
Speaker 1:And when you say rake, you're using antlers. It's like a rattle. Yeah, or is it something else?
Speaker 2:I have a couple different methods. I have a scapula off of some bulls that I've shot, and I also have a couple of of sheds too. So so I'll I'll use either, depending on what I'm carrying for the day. Um, depending, you know, depending on where you are in the rut. I use different things because at different periods in the rut the moose are attracted to different sounds and different calls. So I'll generally start off with a friend call or is there anybody around? Yeah, like a thing. And then I have a couple of other bull calls. One is, and I generally use these calls after I've used, normally, a series of cow calls to get the bull coming. So then once the bull's coming, I have to kind of read what the bull is doing and and what he is saying. So they'll generally be calling back and they'll have certain calls. So so they have, I'll be, I'll be nice. They have a fornicate, I want to fornicate call and I have, I want to you can say sex call.
Speaker 1:You can say I'm horny call, it's all they have that. I want a fornicate call. You can say sex call. You can say I'm horny call, it's all the same.
Speaker 2:I want a fight call.
Speaker 1:So you have to determine whether they want to fight or they want to fornicate, right.
Speaker 2:So from there then I'll mimic or use whichever call to bring them in. So usually if they want to fornicate, I'm not going to use another bull call, right, I'll bring them the rest of the way in on a cow call. But if he's coming in and he wants to fight, well then I'll switch and I'll use the fighting bull call Awesome. And then I have a series of cow calls that I use also.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. So, basically, in a nutshell, for those of us, I would consider myself one of the people that like the idea of moose hunting, but don't know my ass from a hole in the ground, from a hole in the ground. With your experience and its long hours in the bush and listening to what's going on and actually seeing the interactions from afar, you've learned their language, basically, and your basis on the language is the same way that a bunch of teenagers in a bar would be reacting. And you're just isolating, you're just figuring, you're feeling out the situation to figure out whether the bull wants to fight, whether the bull wants to fight and I'm assuming that the bull is wanting to come in and fight because he wants the woman and he doesn't want anybody else to get the woman. And then you determine on well, there's got to be a woman present.
Speaker 1:So, depending on that circumstance, you're playing the Pied Piper of sorts. But it's all regarding the primal instincts in nature and that is sex and fighting, and that's awesome. And I can't even imagine how long it took you to figure that out, let alone then creating a tool that accurately. And hey, listen, I am no connoisseur of how the moose sound and the moose sound, but the things that you were doing and the different sounds that were coming from your call were very impressive. And I tell you what, if I ever get the opportunity to go out and hunt for moose, I want you at my side.
Speaker 2:Oh, thanks.
Speaker 1:Steve, it's awesome. It's another passion. And the other great thing, like I mean, for me in the fishing world. I consider myself a trophy hunter, um, um, but in in the hunting area, um, I don't believe that there's any healthier and better tasting table fare than moose meat. Um, it is, it is just, um, it's better than beef. Um, I, I can't get enough of it. Well, I, I don't really have any of it because I've never shot a bull. I've just been lucky enough that I have friends that a bull or a cow or a calf.
Speaker 1:I have friends that go out and some of them really don't care too much about a trophy animal. They just want to go out and fill up the freezer. And you know, at this point in my life I think I'm one of those guys. I think I would like to just go out and and maybe harvest a calf to to to to put in the freezer. But now that I've mentioned calves and there are tags issued for calves, for cows and bulls, is there a way that you would target calves, to call them in, or is that simply typically a calf is going to be with a cow and you use that scenario to target them?
Speaker 2:Yeah, unless somebody harvested a cow without harvesting the calf or something in nature has taken the cow, the calf is always going to be with a cow, yeah, yeah. So it's pretty much impossible to call a calf and even cows themselves. I generally don't try to call a cow. They can be very difficult here In Ontario. Bull comes to the cow. It's not like Western Canada or not sorry, so much Western Canada, but Northern, in the North and the West, like Alaska, Yukon, Northern BC, in the north and the west, like Alaska, Yukon, northern BC, where you'll have a bull, will set up a pit and the cows will come to him. We don't have that scenario Really. Yeah, we don't have that scenario here. We're not that fortunate. That's very interesting. Yeah, it's totally opposite to the way they react or do things here, and in this side of the country at least.
Speaker 1:And genetically they're the same animal.
Speaker 2:Different subspecies. So there's basically four subspecies of moose in Ontario or sorry, in North America, you have that Alaskan moose and the the Shire's moose, which are kind of Western species, and and while the Alaskan one is is obviously in the North and the Yukon and Northern BC, and then there's through through the rest of Canada and Eastern Ontario. There's two other subspecies where they they kind of I guess the blending line you could call it for those two subspecies would be around Lake Nipigon Gotcha.
Speaker 1:And it's so interesting to me that they fundamentally react differently in the mating process, which is something that I had no idea. I didn't even know there were four subspecies, which is very cool.
Speaker 2:I find even between, say, east of Lake Nipigon and then over towards Dryden and Kenora, fort Francis, this way the bulls will react differently even to some calls and stuff, just in that small of an area between us, wow yeah.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. So, basically, you need to know the languages of the animals and where you're kind of located. It's all bull oriented. So you're you're kind of manipulating the other the, the cow and the calf using whether or not there's a bull present, and bringing one in and and um, um, that's, uh, that's how you do it, which is very cool. You know, and that's one way, any other thoughts?
Speaker 2:Well, that's one way to bring a cow in too. Right Is just to continually try to call bulls in and hopefully a cow will come in with the bull. I've done that several times.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. Is there any other interesting um things that you would like to discuss about the um bull hunt itself that we've kind of not covered um?
Speaker 2:just that you know really. You know every animal is like they. When you do bring one in, they're going to come in differently. And yeah, just that's what you need to do is kind of figure out why they're coming in and what they want to do when they get there, and then try to mimic that and bring them in as close as you can.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so last question honestly. Yeah, so last question honestly I, I I have a hard time letting this, letting you go because you're, you're so awesome. But, um, let's go back to the boots on the ground. Uh, scenario and you've spent a a ton of time in the bush yeah and these animals are massive, Like I mean. They'll run through bush and knock over trees that are like three, four inches in diameter, without like running through the grasslands of Alberta. Have you ever been in a position where you felt threatened by one of these animals?
Speaker 2:Oh, multiple times. Yeah, and you're right, it's incredible to watch a big, huge bull moose tip his head back and run through standing timber. I don't know how they do it. They're running through trees. It feels like I got to turn sideways to get through there and they roar through there like they're. They're running through trees, like you know. It feels like I gotta turn sideways to get through there and they, they roar through there like they're nothing. It's just get out of the way, yeah.
Speaker 2:But to get to your question, yeah, I've had times, um, especially guiding archery hunters. Um, well, here I'll give you a story. So, uh, this at the same hunter, two, two years in a row. Uh, the first year he was there, uh, we saw multiple moose, but I brought this one bull down the shoreline, um, a long ways down the shoreline and every you know 50 yards or whatever. He'd stop and and he'd tear up the trees and he'd be throwing pieces of alder like 20 yards out. He'd stop and he'd tear up the trees and he'd be throwing pieces of alder like 20 yards out into the lake and he'd come down the shoreline about a kilometer doing this and by the time he got to the hunter, the hunter was shaking so bad that he couldn't shoot it, because now this bull's like 20 yards in front of him and he couldn't even shoot it. He was shaking so bad.
Speaker 2:The anticipation would have been ridiculous, yeah, because we watched it come up that shoreline. It had to have been like 30 minutes. It took him to come up that shoreline, just beating the crap out of everything, and I think he thought he was next. I would. He never shot that moose and I'll tell you, actually that moose there did come in with a cow, um, but we'll skip to the next year. I had yeah, I had the same hunter. So, um, we went in on a different spot, um, and got in there.
Speaker 2:It was in the in the evening and right away first call I got this bull and he was just on the far end of a swamp. So he come down this swamp and same deal Every time he now this is a quite a bit smaller bull, but still a nice bull Every time he'd come down he'd get to some little alder or whatever coming across the swamp, he'd smash the crap out of it. And this thing came and he walked up. So we were at the end of an old road. So he walked up so that his front legs were on the roadbed but his butt was still in the ditch there and he was right beside Buddy, like right broadside to Buddy, but he was so nervous again that he couldn't shoot. So the moose didn't like what. He was right beside Buddy, like right broadside to Buddy, but he was so nervous again that he couldn't shoot. So the moose didn't like what he was looking at. He backed down. He walked around up on the end of where the road ended, did the same thing. Now he's about 25 yards from the guy facing him. The guy still had a pretty decent shot on him. He didn't shoot.
Speaker 2:And I'm still working this moose calling and calling. He's trying to figure out what's going on. So it went around to the other side. So now he's like basically done all three sides of this road and now he's come right up on the road and the whole time I'm trying to move around and stay to bring the moose in front of the guy. So I'm trying to kind of guide it.
Speaker 2:So so, working your angle, working the angle. So now I've crossed back across the road, I'm on the same side as where this guy is and there's a little bit of standing timber there and I bring this moose up on the road and I'm waiting for the guy to shoot it. Now I'm in the bush, I've lost visibility of the hunter and all of a sudden the moose starts coming across the road and into the bush and yeah, I next. I was actually trying to videotape it. All you see is my video camera goes into my pocket and all you hear is oh shit, oh fuck, oh god, and you can hear me scurrying no way up this tree and uh, no, I went right up the tree and and then I actually heard his bow go off, you know, which is not a lot of noise when a bow goes.
Speaker 2:So I was like, okay, yeah, I stayed up there for a bit and I didn't hear anything. And so I come down and, um, did you get him? He says, yeah, I missed on my second shot. And it's like, well, I never heard there's a second shot that I heard. So I went down and this thing, luckily it turned and it ran back up that road and ran right towards our trucks and ended up dying. Nice, yeah, it ended up dying just off the side of the road there. But yeah, that's one. You know, that one put me right up a tree, and it's not the first time.
Speaker 1:That's crazy. Well, like I say, it's got to be intimidating, especially with you, and the only weapon you've got is your call.
Speaker 2:Yeah, mean, I'm not sure you know, and that particular moose too, right, I brought him in on the fighting call so, like you get them all, you got them all worked up and and now he's looking for you, right? So it's like, yeah, I'm getting out of here, feet don't fail me now, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:That's awesome, and the fact that you finally got the guest into his moose was great too.
Speaker 1:Yeah well, rick, on that note, I want to thank you very much on behalf of all the diaries listeners, myself included. Um, you've been gracious and a wealth of knowledge and I really appreciate everything that you've brought today and would love to have you on at another point in the Diaries run. And you know what? Maybe we'll be doing a podcast together with you as my guide, sure, and we'll have our own stories to tell about moose hunting. But, rick, thank you so much for being on with us today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it was a pleasure, steve, as always, enjoy your company and look forward to seeing you again.
Speaker 1:Yes, and you will. I'll see you again at some point, and at this point I'd love to remind all of the Diaries family that head on over to fishingcanadacom check out the free giveaways. Rick is one of the people that religiously does it, and it paid off in spades. We've we've had the, the, the wonderful opportunity, and I feel blessed to call Rick a friend and go on over there, see what you can do. Get those ballots in the box and like, subscribe, leave your comments and again. Unfortunately, thus brings us to the conclusion of another episode of Diaries of a Lodge Owner.
Speaker 4:I'm a good old boy, never meanin' no harm. I'll be all you ever saw, been railin' in the hog since the day I was born, bendin' my rock, stretchin' my line. Bending my rock stretching my line. Someday I might own a lodge, and that'd be fine. I'll be making my way the only way I know how, working hard and sharing the north with all of my pals. Well, I'm a good old boy. I buy the large and live my dream. And now I'm here talking about how life can be as good as it seems, yeah.
Speaker 5:What brings people together more than fishing and hunting? How about food? I'm Chef Antonio Muleka, and I have spent years catering to the stars. Now, on Outdoor Journal Radio's Eat Wild podcast, luis Hookset and I are bringing our expertise and Rolodex to our real passion the outdoors. Each week, we're bringing you inside the boat, tree stand or duck blind and giving you real advice that you can use to make the most out of your fish and game.
Speaker 5:You're going to flip that duck breast over. Once you get a nice hard sear on that breast, you don't want to sear the actual meat. And it's not just us chatting here. If you can name a celebrity, we've probably worked with them and I think you might be surprised who likes to hunt and fish. When Kit Harington asks me to prepare him sushi with his bass, I couldn't say no. Whatever Taylor Sheridan wanted, I made sure I had it. Burgers, steak, anything off the barbecue, that's a true cowboy. All Jeremy Renner wanted to have was lemon ginger shots all day. Find Eating Wild now on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever else you get your podcasts.