Diaries of a Lodge Owner

Episode 148: How To Become A Fishing Guide

• Outdoor Journal Radio Podcast Network • Episode 148

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The fastest way into a fishing guide career is not a perfect resume, it is getting yourself into the right lodge and proving you belong there. Around the table at Two Rivers Lodge, we sit down with three working guides, Rick Payne, John “Cowboy” Jomban, and Caleb Johnson, to talk about how guiding really starts: nerves, rough water, limited gear, and the moment you realize you are responsible for someone else’s best day of the year. 

You will hear what their first guiding experiences were actually like, from learning boat control the hard way to figuring out how to lead guests when you are still new yourself. We also get into the pressure side of the job: guests who expect constant action, days when weather and fish refuse to cooperate, and how a good guide keeps the mood strong without pretending. The big takeaway is that teaching is not a backup plan, it is a core skill. Explaining fish behaviour, reading clouds and pressure, and using your own logs and patterns can turn a slow bite into a day people talk about for years. 

We also dig into modern electronics like mapping, sonar, and LiveScope as tools for both fishing and trust. When guests can see fish follow and not commit, the day becomes a team problem to solve, not a blame game. If you are thinking about becoming a fishing guide in Canada, working at a Canadian fishing lodge, or just want a behind-the-scenes look at what makes a great guest experience, this conversation is for you. Subscribe, share this with a friend who dreams about guiding, and leave a review so more anglers can find the show.

Cold Open On Getting Hired

SPEAKER_11

The best thing you can do is apply. Just get into a place. It doesn't matter what position you're in, show an interest in what you like and what you love and what you want to do. Even if it's if you want to be a guide, apply for the dog hand position. Get in there. Put words in people's ears. Tell them you want to guide. Eventually, there'll be a group that's big enough, and all of a sudden, oh, I need you to guide.

Meet The Guides At Two Rivers

SPEAKER_07

This week on the Outdoor Journal Radio Podcast Networks, Diaries of a Lodge Owner, Stories of the North. We're back with another edition of A Guide to Guide. Have you ever wondered if being a fishing guide might be one of the most rewarding careers in the outdoors? If so, this episode's for you. On this show, I sit down with three working guides from Two Rivers Lodge to talk about how they got their start, what they wish they'd known before stepping into the boat, the skills every guide needs to develop, and the realities of building a career dedicated to creating unforgettable experiences for their guests. So whether you're considering guiding as a profession, taking your first steps into the industry, or simply curious about what it really takes to earn a living on the water, we hope this conversation gives you an honest look at the road ahead. Here's my conversation with Rick, John, and Caleb. Welcome to another episode of Diaries of a Lodge Owner, and I find myself around this same table with a couple of familiar voices and a new voice. Um, and I want to first of all thank you guys. We've got Colby uh and your last name, or uh Caleb, your last name. Johnson. Caleb Johnson, uh uh new guide here at uh Two Rivers and uh Cowboy Jomban and the legendary Rick Payne. And uh today we're going to uh to do a little bit of a different uh topic. Um a lot of you might remember back in the early days of Diaries, I did an episode with Patrick Tryon called A Guide to Guide. And uh I thought it would be a wonderful um addition to a guide to guide with um with uh with you three. And um I want to thank you for being here and thank all of you out there, the Diaries family, for uh for sitting down with us once again. And um I just thought, and actually, this was your your idea, uh John and Rick, after our last podcast, you guys come up with a wonderful question that we didn't cover. And that's what got me thinking about the guide to guide. And

Caleb’s First Guiding Day Nerves

SPEAKER_07

that question was what was your first guiding experience like? And uh, Caleb, we're gonna we're gonna um we're gonna start with you because it's very fresh in your memory. It is, yeah. Yeah. Is this you tell us about your first guiding experience, where it was, how did you, how did you get here?

SPEAKER_05

Uh first guiding experience was uh I don't know, a little less than two months ago there. Started guiding a little bit early, wasn't supposed to start till July, and then kind of got thrown into it a little early.

SPEAKER_07

So here at Two Rivers.

SPEAKER_05

At Two Rivers, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So got thrown into it a little early, and it was it was a good decision. I'm glad we did it. Um tell us about your first day. Yeah, so first day, I was a little nervous, nerves are a little higher. Um, it's kind of fresh into the boat driving thing, too. So that was kind of my top, top of my list that I was trying to focus on. And and um, but yeah, I had two two really nice guests. They they brought a lot of their own gear, so it uh made it really easy on me. I didn't really have to do a whole lot. I kind of just took them to the spots and uh they did the rest for me. But first day, we put a 41-inch pike on the board. That always helps. That was nice, yeah. That was nice. I didn't have like I said, didn't have to do a whole lot of work, but it uh it was pretty rewarding, and that was kind of the first experience. It was caught some nice fish, had some good conversations and made some good friends. So good.

SPEAKER_07

Now, um, did you come here with the intention of becoming a guide?

SPEAKER_05

Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, that was and what um like what did you do to prepare yourself, or did you just basically look for guide um um uh ads in the in on Kijiji or word of mouth, or how did you find Will and and Adam?

SPEAKER_05

Uh I found them on Indeed. Some of your listeners probably know myself and Paige were on your podcast a little while ago. Yeah. So if they remember that episode or not, they know I uh implied on Indeed there. Yeah, yeah. So I applied on Indeed and got a call back like 20 minutes later from Will. He was quick, yeah. Yeah, I had a conversation with him like 15 minutes, and he was like, Yeah, you're hired. So backed up my stuff.

SPEAKER_07

What did you say to him to get him to say, yeah, you're hired? Let's assume that Will wasn't desperate.

SPEAKER_10

You sounded better than me. Is it uh yeah?

SPEAKER_05

No, it was I think it was what I wrote him. So on Indeed, you can write like a little description of yourself and why you want to do it. I wrote him like a ginormous paragraph of like why it's my dream to do this, why I want to wake up and do what I love. And this was directly to Will. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, directly to Will. And then, like I said, there it was. I was still sitting in bed, didn't even get out of bed, and he called me, and yeah, that's all I got it. So nice now. We're here and it's good, it's great.

SPEAKER_07

That's awesome. Yeah.

John’s First Lodge Morning Chaos

SPEAKER_07

And and uh cowboy, yes. Do you're do you even remember your first guiding uh experience? I do.

SPEAKER_11

So I guess you know it could be the first like true guiding experience or the first lodge experience.

SPEAKER_07

Well, let's let's talk about both.

SPEAKER_11

Okay, so my first true like lodge slash guiding experience. I wasn't a full-time guy, I wasn't taking people out in the bullet eight hours a day. I was when I needed to. But so my first day ever out as a guide, right? Because you gotta work your way into it, right? Um, I went out, it was 4 a.m. The boss, and then this is in northern Manitoba, and I gotta give them credit, Cobham River Lodge. If it wasn't for you guys, I wouldn't be here today. I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing, I wouldn't be on this podcast, I wouldn't be doing this, right? So thank you guys. So the first day ever out, I'm following the the owner's son, Matt. And we're driving down this lake, and it's called Elliott Lake. Okay. Now, this is really early, and I was like, yeah, I've driven boats before. Well, not like driven boats before like what I was about to be put through. Okay, so we go out and uh we gotta go turn over this this outpost camp. I'm like, okay, yeah, we're gonna go set it up, turn it over, you know, get everything ready, and the guests are gonna come, you know, come by. No problem. Okay, yeah, follow me at 4 a.m. Sure. Can't see shit. Was it dark? Hell yeah. Okay, there's no graph in the boat. Nothing. You're just I'm just following wakes at this point. I can barely see. And this is a long ride. This is a two and a half hour ride, it felt like. I swear to god, it was a two and a half hour ride. And we're going through, and it is not nice. So by the time we get to Elliott Lake, and this is through all sorts of these other lakes and channels and stuff like that. Finally we get to Elliott Lake, right? And it is kind of bright, just enough that I can see Matt a little further out than normal. So he's crashing through these waves, and I'm like, all right, I guess is my time's up. This is when I buck up or uh, you know, fail. And I'm ripping through the waves, no clue how to hit them. No. I the times I've driven freaking boats was like small ponds, whatever. How old were you? Uh I think I was like 17 or 18.

SPEAKER_07

Nice.

SPEAKER_11

Yeah. So then I'm I think, yeah, I think it was 17. So I'm going through this Elliott Lake, and it is mad. It is eight feet deep and basically a big flat. So you know when the wind picks up, that stuff gets heavy. So as we're driving through, I'm being smashed by waves, no clue how to take them. The boat's being like drugged sharply left and right and all this stuff like that, right? And I'm I'm seeing Max fully just disappear. And I'm like, oh no, I can't lose sight. Like, if I lose these bubbles, I am done. So I'm going through, and sure enough, I hit a wave wrong. Now this, I let I end up let going with the motor. I was soaked, I was drenched, I can't see anything. This is my first time in really rough water. Let go of the of the pillar smacks to the side. I get thrown to the bottom of the boat. I'm going, round in circles. So I finally grab it, I get a hold of it. I'm like, holy crap, like what direction am I going down? I have no clue. So then I eventually I can kind of see where Matt went into, and I'm like, I got this. Slow as can be, going over all the ways to where he got into, which was what we call the narrows. Now,

Rough Water Lessons And Close Calls

SPEAKER_11

this is a whole nother challenge, okay? They're putting me through the ropes the first time, all right? So we get to the narrows, and it's just this tight little windy area, probably maybe 15 feet wide. So we're going through these narrows, like turning left, right, zigzags, whatever, loop-de-loops, whatever you want to think. We're going through that, and all of a sudden, Matt's like, he stops, like way before what's about to come up, and he goes, Do exactly what I do. I'm like, what do you mean? Just jump the beaver dam. No. What do you mean? So it tells me how to do it. He does it. I did it. I jumped it.

SPEAKER_07

Tell me how you jump a beaver dam. Well, the way he kind of showed me, and first of all, what what size of boat and engine?

SPEAKER_11

Is it like a it was a 40 on a like a 12-foot tenner? Okay. So you got a bit of power. Oh, yeah. Or maybe, maybe it was a 25. I don't know. I don't remember. It was a long time ago, but um, it was it was interesting.

SPEAKER_08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_11

The way you taught me was you stand up, you hit the throttle fast, what with your tilt switch down. Or uh yeah, tilt switch down means you reverse and it pops up, right?

SPEAKER_10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_11

So you're throttled up, you hit the tilt switch, you go, and then you pop her out in the reverse, and it smacks the motor up, your boat goes over, and then you just tilt her back down and go.

SPEAKER_07

And we did it. So it was out of the water. You went right over the mud beaver dam.

SPEAKER_11

The beaver dam was just at surface level.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_11

Because it's been jumped a few times. Yeah. Eventually I did carve a freaking path through that thing, but so we went all the way up, we get through, and finally we're at the we're at the at the outpost camp. Now keep in mind, I got a washer in my boat, like washing machine. Okay.

SPEAKER_07

So you're you're delivering a payload.

SPEAKER_11

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The boats had a lot of stuff in them because we have to go set it up, all new stuff, a generator, whatnot, like little, you know, D Walt generator.

SPEAKER_07

Oh my god, I'm surprised you didn't go over when you lost control of that boat with a washing machine in it.

SPEAKER_11

I thought I was gonna die. So we get there, we set it up, and uh the float plane comes in right at the same time. He was bringing in some more stuff for us. And as the float plane comes in, he lands on or he lands to shore before we do. And they're like, Okay, go to shore. No problem. I'm driving forward, and all of a sudden they're like, stop, stop, stop. Like, what do you mean? I'm like, I don't know how to stop. I'm drifting right towards the float plane, okay? And John, the pilot, God rest his soul, there was an accident and he passed. Um, I was going right towards his plane, and sure enough, boom, I hit the float. He loses his mind. Loses his mind. The boss is yelling at me, everyone's freaking out, and I'm like, it's okay, there's no dent. So then I get to shore, and yeah, me and John ended up becoming good friends, and I really learned how to drive a boat that day.

SPEAKER_07

No doubt. That's uh that's uh learning by fire. Oh yeah, oh yeah, learning by fire.

SPEAKER_11

Almost hit a moose that year, too, in the boat in the narrows.

SPEAKER_07

Well, you don't want to do that. No, and then you said you had your official guide day.

SPEAKER_11

So that was the first day I ever walked on this dock in like 2017, I'm pretty sure.

SPEAKER_07

For T2.

SPEAKER_11

For T2 Island Lodge, yeah. I walked on the dock, and this was literally after being in northern Manitoba, after that whole experience. I walk on the dock because their season ended early, so I came, I came late the first year. So waiting at the landing, I finally get picked up, get driven to the dock, and as I get onto the dock, I get looked at by the head or uh the the head guide, which his name was Daryl. Daryl looked at me, I looked at Daryl, he goes, Why are you here? Oh, nice, nice uh uh welcome. I'm like, what do you what do you mean? He's like, Why are you here? I was like, to guide? He's like, okay, go find a room. I was like, perfect. You should have walked down to cabin one. Yeah, right. So then I went and found a room and got settled, and uh I got shown the lake for about five minutes. Five minutes was all it was.

SPEAKER_07

So kind of like uh actually, I had more than five minutes.

SPEAKER_11

Yeah, they go, here's this spot, here's that spot, here's that spot, and this spot. I said, okay. They said, you guide tomorrow. All right, sounds good. Get in the boat. I have catfishing rods, ugly sticks, a helix five, and maybe 10 jigs.

SPEAKER_07

Did you have mapping at least?

SPEAKER_11

Uh yes, I actually did. I did. I had a leg chip in my uh Helix 5. Um, but I had like nothing. I had I had you know some lures and whatnot, but like not a lot. And I went out and I tried to catch fish, I caught fish, but boy, did the guests not like that. When they're like, okay, we want to go muskie fishing, and I hand them a cat fishing rod, and they're like, What the hell is this? I'm like, man, it's what I got right now. So yeah, we would just make do, I guess.

SPEAKER_07

And did they catch any?

SPEAKER_11

Heck yeah, we did. Nice.

SPEAKER_07

Were they happy at the end of it?

SPEAKER_11

Absolutely, except one guy.

SPEAKER_07

He wasn't so happy. He didn't catch that guy. Screw that guy, yeah.

SPEAKER_11

Uh but uh yeah, no, everybody had a good time, and eventually, you know, I built up my stuff, and here we are today.

SPEAKER_07

Nice, yeah, nice, and Rick, tell us about your first guiding experience.

Rick’s Dockhand Roots On Houseboats

SPEAKER_07

Now, folks, keep in mind Rick is probably, and I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna um add a little bit of my own flair, but Rick is the most important forest fire fighting individual on the planet. He is he he he keeps uh Ontario safe and um um also guides and uh tell us when you first uh started uh guiding, like what was your first day like?

SPEAKER_09

So much like John, I I didn't really start a guide, my guiding career as a guide. Yeah I started as a dockhead. Yes. I I I worked uh in Fort Francis at that time. It was uh on houseboats, it was uh Bill Fontana's uh floating lodges. Um I worked with with Bill and Rusty Myers. And if you're from Northwestern Ontario, you've heard of Rusty Myers. Rusty Myers is uh one of the original Bushmen and uh uh aircraft for people that oh helped open up the north year. Um and then Bill Fontana. Well Bill Fontana was a character. He he he traveled the world uh going to the World's Fair and all over the place. Um doing he had dogs and he would log roll. And he would travel the world with these dogs and he'd log roll and they would do tricks and all this stuff. Oh, no way. Yeah, so so when we were, you know, in our off time, he always had log floating in the room.

SPEAKER_07

For those of you who don't know what a log roller is, back in the day when the logging industry was was um was was king in the north, everybody that you would float logs through all of the waterways to get them down south where you could harvest them. And the log rollers, correct me if I'm wrong, they were the guys that would jump from log to log to log to break up and move the logs, help move the logs down the river while running on top of the logs. Yes. That that there's gotta be some some danger involved with that kind of a of uh of a job. And so go on. He he traveled the world world fairs, log rolling with dogs that did tricks, yeah.

SPEAKER_09

So that was you know, that's just a little bit of a those two, I guess. Like, um, but yeah, definitely a couple of characters. No doubt stories, the people they met, and yeah, especially Bill traveling all over the world, yeah, all the famous people. He had pictures all over his office, and like you know, big office like this, and and the walls were just plastered with pictures of different people, and yeah, yeah, it was pretty cool. Um, but yeah, getting back to so I was a dock hand, um and I was a couple of months, you know, around and working on the houseboats, and and you're you know, you have to learn how to dock them, and yeah, it's not like a a skiff, you're you're out there big. Uh they had you know, I think there was a dozen boats anywhere from 55 feet to 20, say 25 feet, yeah. Twin engines and stuff. So there's a a lot to learn just uh how to dock them, to maneuver them, maneuver them, and and yeah. Um, you know, I was telling the other day a couple of stories about you know, guys not holding the boat close close to the the wharf there and going over the the side of the wharf between the house boat with uh bunks with a hundred-pound propane tank. And another time the next day uh with a with a 15-horse engine. Engine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, girls walk by and they get all distracted, and next thing you know, you're you're you're in the drink.

SPEAKER_07

Well, you can't blame an honest man for that.

SPEAKER_09

Well, you know, yeah. You regret it there, yeah. On the bottom holding that holding my 15 horse up. Uh yeah. So, you know, after working uh on the boats for a bit and and finally, you know, going out the odd time with with uh Rusty and and a few other guides, they they said, okay, uh, you know, they needed somebody. Can you take a boat out? No, sure, I can take a boat out, no problem. So uh how old were you in all of this? I was 19. Yeah, yeah, it was 1985. So it was a it was a couple years back. Um yeah, so so they said, okay, your your guys will be here in the morning. You know, you you help them unload, get the boat already, and and they told me where to where to beach it and everything. So these three guys, they should Show up and they got this four-wheel drive van. And uh they're from Chicago, these three young guys. So they get out and they start unloading their gear out of the van. And the first thing, one of the first things they take off the van is the spare tire. They roll the spare tire into the houseboat. So I'm I'm kind of watching this go down. What the hell are these guys up there? I give them a few minutes and I and I kind of wander onto the houseboat there.

A First Trip With Dangerous Clients

SPEAKER_09

And and you know, there's Buddy, he's got a pair of side cutters, and he cut the valve stem off the tire, and he let the air out of the tire, and he's he's reaching into the tire and he's pulling out all these different drugs. Oh, yeah, okay. And I don't have a you know, I didn't have a clue what the heck he was pulling out of it. Yeah. Uh there's all kinds of different stuff though. So they get all the stuff on the boat, we go up the lake. So it's we go up the lake, it's about 15 miles or so. We went up the lake and and uh nice little beach there. We park parked the boat, and uh so the routine was what you'd do is you'd take them up the lake, you'd park the boat, you'd moor the boat on the beach for them, get it all secured, and then we would take them out fishing for a couple of hours, show them some spots, make sure they knew how to run. So, did you uh so the the you pulled boats behind the houseboat? Yeah, we would pulled two skips behind behind the houseboat. Yeah. Yeah. So that's what we did. We we moored the houseboat. We went out fish for for a couple hours in the evening there, caught some fish. We came back, cleaned up the fish, uh, ate the fish, you know, similar to our lunches around here. Um, so you know, after that we kind of cleaned up and I was getting ready. It was time for me to leave, and I was kind of like hanging around for a bit there, just just to see really feel good, right? Like these guys have been like popping pills and smoking stuff and and like just all day long and drinking. So they're pretty liquored, they're they're pretty wrecked. And this one guy, he starts playing around on the beach there, and he and he he grabbed the filet knife. Oh no, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_08

Oh no, that's bad.

SPEAKER_09

So so he grabs the filet knife and and he's he's a puddle, and he's throwing the filet knife and he's sticking it into the sand, and he's running up and pretending to kick it. And he did this three or four times, and suddenly, well, you you know what happened. He kicked the filet knife and it was in the sand, like there was only like a little bit sticking out, so it was really embedded in there. And he sliced his foot probably like uh two, three inches back between his big toe and his other toe. Oh my god, was he doing this in bare feet? Yeah. Oh my god. Yeah, he was running around on, you know, yeah, in the same, you know, they've been swimming and whatever. It was nice. They're on a beach, yeah. Yeah, so yeah, kicked this filling and you know, and flopped his foot wide open there. Oh my ass is puckering thinking about it. Blood everywhere, and so I grabbed this guy and and wrapped his foot up with a towel that was there and and tossed him into the got him into the skiff, and like it was like a 14-foot skiff with a 15 on it, so we weren't making any time going back down the lake, and and it was rainy lake, it's it's a big lake, and it's always rough. Um, so yeah, we pounded them all the way back to town and got them to the hospital, and then the next day I had to go and and pick them up in the afternoon and take them back home. Oh no, back to Morphe, Mr. Club foot there. Oh my god. I bet you that foot it still to this day is like oh not right. It was nasty, like full of sand.

SPEAKER_11

There's a guy with a messed up foot out there listening to this right now. Yeah, well, you know what?

SPEAKER_09

I'm sure he has regret.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, for sure. That that's a tough lesson learned. Yeah, don't mix drugs, alcohol, and filet knives together.

SPEAKER_10

Bad combo.

SPEAKER_07

Oh my god. Yeah, that is ridiculous. Yeah.

Real Advice For Breaking In

SPEAKER_07

So the next question is for all of those people out there um who may aspire to become a guide, what is some advice? We'll open it up to the table and um let's just throw out some advice for people. And and the one thing that I always talk about, and you mentioned, is if you want a guide, the best entry point is dock hand. Right? Absolutely. I think you uh I think you skip that.

SPEAKER_05

I yeah, I skipped a bit of that there. Yeah, my doc life was pretty short, but did a bit of it.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, that's good. That's good. But any other thoughts?

SPEAKER_11

The best thing you can do is apply and just get into a place. It doesn't matter what position you're in, show an interest in what you like and what you love and what you want to do. Even if it's if you want to be a guide, apply for the dog cam position. Get in there, put words in people's ears, tell them you want to guide. Eventually, there'll be a group that's big enough, and all of a sudden, oh, I need you to guide, Steve.

SPEAKER_07

Wow, and uh from the point of view from a la lodge owner, absolutely, yeah. I I think about 90% of my dock hands over a 10-year period ended up guiding at some point or another, whether they wanted to or not.

SPEAKER_11

Yep, I've I've seen people guide that are not in any position to guide, and there's your there's there's your first day, yeah, yeah, right, and now that can be a story. And as well with that is as soon as you get to a place, let's say you get hired as a guide, it don't matter what you come with, just come with something, show an effort, do what you do what you're here to do, right? Yeah, but just try. Sitting there and thinking you want to do it, it's it's just as easy.

SPEAKER_05

The thing is, you just gotta do it. Yeah, I'm young, I can vouch on that behalf. You just gotta absolutely do it, and like you said, apply. And I think a big thing too is being different than you gotta put yourself out a little different than everybody else. Cause yeah, you know, there's probably hundreds of people that are applying to this job, and you wanna, yeah, like I said, make yourself a little different than the crowds. So that's that's what'll get you. What was your motivation, Caleb? Uh, I'd say the biggest motivation was uh just being able to wake up and be happy and do what I love, right? Like wake up and be excited for the day because I wouldn't I wouldn't have that anywhere else, I don't think. Fishing's my passion, and it's your passion, and your passion, and your passion. And that's why we're all sitting around this table right now. So yeah.

SPEAKER_11

It's just as easy as one click away nowadays. Yeah. One click away can change your life and make you do what you want to do for the rest of your life.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah. So that's a that that leads me into the next question. That's a forum to me. Yeah. That that leads me to the next question. Um, and I'm just gonna throw it out there for everybody to to chime in. Um, how has guiding changed your life?

SPEAKER_11

It's the only thing I do. It's it's got me to where I am today. It's paid for a lot of things, it's gotten me the things I want and brought me enjoyment the entire way. I don't feel like I worked ever, and all of a sudden I'm be able to buy things and uh fish. I fish for a living, like it's the best office in the world. It's pretty fun to see. You're out on the lake, like what you know, it's better than sitting at a computer screen or sitting at home or in a convenience store. If you want to do this kind of thing, do it. It's just as easy as that. There could be things holding you back, but just give it a try at least.

SPEAKER_09

Now, then I come at it from the other side, right? Like, this isn't my full-time job. This is this is what I I like to do on my days off and on my vacation. And um, and yeah, so uh I get to spend a lot of time, you know, and and I can vouch for it. Like, you know, my office in my guide boat is far nicer than my office at the M and R. Like, yeah, I know where I'd rather park my ads in.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, usually the people are in a better mood.

SPEAKER_11

Yeah. Like I've been saying since I was 10 I wanted to be a fishing guy. Look at me now. 10-year-old me would be so proud. Good for you.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, good for you. That's something that a lot of people don't have, is those passions at 10 years old. Yeah, and a lot of people do have passions at 10 years old and they never follow through with them. Yeah, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_11

My mom can vouch and she loves the show, so shout out to mom. Hey mom, how you doing?

SPEAKER_07

What's her name? Julie. Julie, Julie Bryan.

SPEAKER_08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07

Nice. Welcome

Sponsor And Network Break

SPEAKER_07

to Two Rivers Lodge, where we know that our hard work and determination creates your best experiences. You'll arrive as a guest but leave as family. Surrounded by a multi-species fishing mecca like no other. Our elite cabins and professional staff are ready to make your stay unforgettable. Experience the difference. Because at two rivers, every cast is a story, and every guest is a part of the family.

SPEAKER_04

Back in 2016, Frank and I had a vision to amass the single largest database of muskie angling education material anywhere in the world.

SPEAKER_03

Our dream was to harness the knowledge of this amazing community and share it with passionate anglers just like you.

SPEAKER_04

Thus, the Ugly Pike Podcast was born and quickly grew to become one of the top fishing podcasts in North America.

SPEAKER_03

Step into the world of angling adventures and embrace the thrill of the catch with the Ugly Pike Podcast. Join us on our quest to understand what makes us different as anglers and to uncover what it takes to go after the infamous fish of 10,000 casts.

SPEAKER_04

The Ugly Pike Podcast isn't just about fishing, it's about creating a tight-knit community of passionate anglers who share the same love for the sport. Through laughter, through camaraderie, and an unwavering spirit of adventure, this podcast will bring people together. Subscribe now and never miss a moment of our angling adventures. Tight lines, everyone. Find Ugly Pike now on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever else you get your podcasts.

Hard Guests And High Expectations

SPEAKER_07

But have you ever had experiences in the boat with people that were not nice? Do you remember ever having a time in a boat where you had somebody that um that wasn't having a good day? And how do you deal with that? Because that I think um is one of those things that when people think about guiding and and when you're a guide, you're you're confined in a boat with people that you just meet for eight hours, and you gotta perform, or at least for me, I feel like I have to perform. And whether that performance is um by catching lots of fish or um or showing an experience of some sort, I think that you probably run into people that are hard to please. Yeah. Have you ever had experiences with those that type of person? For sure. Like yeah, you guys go ahead.

SPEAKER_09

You you know you said it, Steve. Like, you know, here we are in this remote, beautiful location, and and you know, people spend lots of money to to come here and and have a vacation and come to Canada and and have great fishing. Like there's an expectation that they're gonna fill the boat with fish, right? And and trying trying to meet that expectation can be pretty difficult. There's there's a lot of pressure to that every day, you know. It's every day. Every day. You can't control the fish. You don't control the weather, you don't control the fish, and uh, but the pressure is still there every day. Um and trying to manage that, and and like you say, like you get those people that come up and have that expectation. Most people don't, they they're here for a good time, but there are those fishermen that they want to catch fish and and they want you to be on fish, and it it's difficult. And you know, uh, those are some of the most difficult people because you know they don't care about the nature and and the you know the the eagle that's flying there and the sturgeon that just breached the water or any of that stuff. It's like I want that 40-inch northern and I want you know that 30-inch wall, I and yeah, where are they? And yeah, so you know that that's difficult and and trying to uh trying to stick handle that for multiple days in the boat, like for one day it's doable, but when you have a client for multiple days, that is stressful for stressful, real, yeah.

SPEAKER_11

Yeah, it plays on your mental. That's that's for sure. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07

Is there is there uh um techniques that that you use to try and temper the expectations of people when they come? Do you talk to them prior to going out with them or when you're in the boat, or is there is there do you ever try and temper their expectations?

SPEAKER_11

Sometimes.

SPEAKER_07

I mean, you you know, let's say you're not without sounding like you're making excuses because that's the last thing you want. Everybody's heard like the old lodge owners saying, like, I mean, I went to a lot of lodges when I was when I was young, and they were always cheap and they were always cook your own, and every lodge owner after the first day of poor fishing, when we would go and we would think we were heading to the the deep north where you're gonna catch fish and they're gonna jump in the boat, and then you find out that it's not that easy to catch fish. Never mind having a guide. Uh, we could never afford a guide, but the lodge owner would always say, Oh, Steve, you guys should have been here last week. Yeah. That's a classic. Yeah, yeah. But is there ways that or or or do you sometimes try and temper somebody's expectations without sounding like you're you're making excuses?

SPEAKER_11

Well, a lot of the time the fish are moving, right? Like they're they're moving. They could be literally be, and whether you're you're fibbing or not to you know please the guests, they they're moving.

SPEAKER_08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_11

So you could be in one spot one day, like a spot that you and I fish one day. Yeah. And they're there, they're hitting, they're hitting, they're hitting, and all of a sudden the next day they're not. Well, you have to explain something out.

SPEAKER_07

You have to explain why. There. That is the root. You have to explain that. That is is is the key. And uh that's one thing that I um that I found myself doing when shit's not going right. And I and I've had it here this week. Like I had one morning where I was on the water and didn't even bring any fish into the shore lunch. Yeah, you know, and um I find that um trying to explain and teach um is is a is a technique that I use to help get me through those lean times.

SPEAKER_11

A main part of guiding is teaching. So when let's say it's slow for a certain spot or a certain time or a certain day, even, you teach them why. Because as a guide, eventually after doing it for a while, you know. You know why they're not biting, you know why they're not in that area, you know why, you know, you know, you know the reasons. Yeah, and so you're teaching them, you know what, it it's today, it's the pressure, and you know it. You can tell the pressure of a day if you you've been on the water long enough, you'll know you'll know when it's high or low, right?

SPEAKER_07

And when we're talking pressure, we're talking weather. And what are some of the uh telltale signs of high pressure and low pressure? Like what is high pressure?

SPEAKER_11

It's as simple as looking at the clouds. When those clouds are really low, that's a high, high, high, high pressure system that's pushing the clouds down.

SPEAKER_07

So a low ceiling is high pressure.

SPEAKER_11

What does that do to the fish?

SPEAKER_07

Well, I would imagine it pushes them down, pushes them down, right?

SPEAKER_11

So in a lot of the areas, like what we were trolling, six feet of water, there's no fish in that high pressure system anymore. Once that high pressure system is hitting for that long time, they're not gonna be there, they're gonna move. So then you look you wait, you wait, you look, you you you're on it, you just gotta find where they're gonna be. You're gonna be fishing deeper, stuff like that, and then all of a sudden that pressure system comes up, you go back to that spot and they're there. And you know it's because of that. So now you you cue in on that, and you realize that, you learn that, and you tell them.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_11

You educate them.

SPEAKER_07

Rick, you had a we had an interesting conversation when we were out in the boat, and it was very simple. You said to me, Steve, I love it when the clouds look like this, and you had a base of knowledge that you were drawing on from years, which were your fish photos. Talk a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_09

Well,

Reading Clouds And Weather Pressure

SPEAKER_09

um, so the other day was one of those days where um it was trying to build thunderstorms and stuff. So you have those big cumulus clouds in the sky. It wasn't raining or thunderstorming or anything, but but you've got those big like white fluffy clouds and they're pushing up. So when you see that, you get you get areas of unequal pressure. So if you're under a cloud, it the cloud's drafting air into it, so it's an area of high pressure and it's sucking the air up, and in between that it'll be depressing the air. Yeah, so you've got an unequal, and I and I find that turns the fish on big time. And and yeah, that's what we I said, like going through all my photos of all my big trophy fish, and and you look in the background at clouds, and they're all the big clouds. Yes. So so to me, I I I kind of look for that.

SPEAKER_07

And these are things that that um there's one way to figure that out, and that's time on the water. And that's having that that base, whether it's photos or whether it's a logbook, that um some of the best, never mind guides, but some of the best fishermen that I've been exposed to have detailed logs of their fishing day. Patrick is one of them, try on. All you folks out there listening um know that we've talked about that. Peter Bowman is another is another guy from from Fishing Canada, a very good friend of mine. He's uh he's not quite as anal as Pat, but um Pete is has got a uh a memory when it comes to fishing. Not so much anything else, Peter. But when it comes to fishing, he is a guy that can tell you where he caught a certain fish, how big it was, what the weather was like, what the water temperature was, what time of year it was, and how he caught it. And um looking back at those, and and then Matt O'Brien, another muskie guide of mine, he um he he puts uh all of his notes into um into his calendar so that every day he sets his, and I don't even know what program or what he's doing, but every day he'll it'll pop up on his calendar previous fish and the information on that day in the past. And after he's been fishing now for, you know, 10, 15 years, he's got a a database of, you know, what happened on this day, right? And uh, and that is uh is a huge source of of information. And when you can draw on all of this stuff, all of a sudden, when you get these these guys that are are just hyper focused on you tell me where to throw my lure because I want to catch a fish right now, then those people, I think. They become intrigued and interested. And all of a sudden, you can spend three or four hours of really slow fishing while you're talking, you're educating, and you're building a relationship with that person. And um the one technique that I always use guiding, running a lodge, gen I I genuinely want to understand and know who that person is. And when and and um I have enough my interest base is pretty broad. And when you start to to find things in common, it it really it really starts to help want to be friendship. Yes, that's what it is. Yeah, it helps the day go by, right? And then all of a sudden those expectations start to fade a little bit, and then when you do catch that fish, it's amazing, all of a sudden, yeah, it's great now.

SPEAKER_11

Like I mean, I was like three buddies in a boat, all high five. A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_07

You know, like I I had I had guide experiences at the lodge, but I don't even consider

Logs, Patterns, And Teaching As Guiding

SPEAKER_07

those guide experiences because I wasn't going out with people under the pretext that I'm a guide. I would make it very clear, I'm not, I'm and I wouldn't charge them because I didn't want to have the pressure. I'm, you know, I made the mistake, whether it's my guide that didn't show up, that's that's on me. That's not on you. The you're trusting me to make sure that I have somebody there. And if I don't, I'm gonna take, I'm gonna fill those shoes, but yeah, with this experience, that wasn't an option. No, I can't say this is free, we're going out as friends. Under pressure. I am now a guide. Yeah, and um my first day was um was uh was nerve-wracking. We heard about it on the last episode, but um the first three or four spots we dropped, we had our lunch in the boat. It was pretty easy. Um and and once you knock off that first fish that's a good one.

SPEAKER_11

That's a sigh.

SPEAKER_07

Oh the pressure starts to come off your shoulders.

SPEAKER_11

Just a little piece. Yeah. But yeah, it's there.

SPEAKER_07

Like today, like yesterday, we we I was out with uh with a group, um uh a three-generation group. I've got Tom, he's the uh he's the grandpa. I've got Jack, who's uh who's his son, and the father of Elliot. And Elliot is a uh 13-year-old, and um he is he was just buzzing. I think he's still fishing out there right now. Every time I look out there, he's got her on off the dock, off the shore, in the boat. I barely get off plane and he was throwing spoons out the side. You see a surgeon jump and he kills it. Yeah, absolutely. And not easy and it within seconds, yeah, right? And uh yesterday we had a we had a good day. The morning went good. We went to the the Narrows and hammered off our lunch real quick. The fish were on. It was um it was one of those days where it was overcast, the ceiling was kind of low, we were in um uh the the whatever it was, I could see the fish, and when you drop down, they ate. It's just working out. That's right. Yeah, and and um Tom, Grandpa Tom, uh, when I first talked to them the night before, he was all about going out. He wanted like 80% walleye fishing and maybe 20% northern pike. And um, and uh I looked at Elliot, his grandson, and Elliot's like, I want to cast for big fish. Yeah. And I was like, well, this is a little bit of a a conundrum because you know the walleye are are typically jigging. Although here we've been catching walleye in in shallow on on um on jerk baits and crankbaits and stuff. So um we got the walleye out of the uh out of the way and um um come back in, had a great shore lunch, went back out, and um I said, well, why don't we uh why don't we um go out and we'll try some casting? And I knew that I was was going to be targeting northern pike. Yeah. Um, but with the caveat that where we're gonna be fishing northern pike, you can catch walleye. Because we have been doing that. Yeah. So I we went back into um uh that bay that's uh past the narrows, the first one on the right. It's back in the back. And Adam had mentioned that he did very well about four days ago with Beth, uh Beth's group. Yeah, and uh we went back in there, and um I give uh I give uh Grandpa Tom a rod with a jerk bait, and I said, cast out this way and and you'll catch walleye. I give Jack and Elliot rods with spoons, and I said, cast out this way, yeah, and you'll catch pike. Yeah. While they started catching pike, and they and they were good pike. Um, and not to mention the fact that Elliot had already caught a 36-incher while we were fishing for northerns. Um, but they started hammering these pike, and they were, you know, we probably caught 30, and there was half a dozen that would have been over 30 inches. We come back in yesterday with a uh 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, and uh uh the a 36. So there was there was five in a straight, right? And um at the end of the day, when we come in, um I said to Rick on the dock, I said, Oh my god, we really set the bar high. Yeah, you know, but I got two more days with these guys. You can't outdo yourself the first time. Uh you know, and and the whole way back in the boat, I'm thinking, oh man. And and you know, Elliot was was having a conversation with his dad, Jack, and he's saying, Dad, can we mount this one? And and and and Jack's like, Well, that's only a 36. You know, if you can hit a 40, maybe. And I said, Well, I think we may be, you know, okay, a 42. Yeah. So he's stuck, Jack's stuck on a 42. Elliot's like, no, dad, you said 40. Yeah, right. And uh so now we come in and and Jack or um Elliot is pumped. He's like, I Steve, we gotta get a 40 tomorrow because we're getting it mounted. And Jack's like, it's gotta be a 42, you know, and then I'm thinking, oh my God, on the ride back, I'm thinking, where am I gonna find fish like that? And then this morning we went out, and it was uh the wind was uh was kind of heavy in the in the morning, and uh it was raining, and it was a it was it was just a dirty morning. But these guys, man, all three of them, they are they're they come here because they want to go out and fish, especially Elliot. Elliot's the driving force. Yeah, yeah. You know, Tom's like, well, maybe we should call it at uh five o'clock, and Elliot's like, no man, there's another bay I saw. I want to go to that bay. Because I had told Elliot, hey, listen, if you have a feeling about a place that you see, tell me. Because there's nothing more important than a feeling. And whether absolutely, whether or not it's a 13-year-old's intuition that's going to lead us in a totally bad spot where we're probably not gonna catch fish and hit a rock. It's well, with the live scope, I'm pretty confident that I'm not gonna hit a rock. But you know, it's it's a learning experience. And I had already planned. You know, we go into a spot, I could then you pull out from your pocket the old, well, you know, Elliot, there's there's there it's a big place, and all information is good information, including information that you don't want. Yeah, that you're you're not looking for because you can prove that there's no fish there. It's important to know where not to fish. That's exactly right. And you don't know where not to fish until you try.

SPEAKER_08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07

And and build a pattern. And um, and and 90% of the fish, Elliot, live in 10% of the water.

SPEAKER_10

Yes.

SPEAKER_07

Right? So there's a lot of water out there that doesn't hold fish. But we didn't even get to that point because it was there was a there was rain coming. It was already quarter after five, and Gramps put his foot down and said, Yeah, no, we're we're going in. We're going in. And yeah. But um we we ended up having a really slow morning, and they were they were they were great about it. The other

LiveScope And Electronics As Proof

SPEAKER_07

technique that I that uh that can kind of be a double-edged sword, but not really, is the technology. Having having uh the hummingbird, I'm not even sure what it's a Helix 12 or whatever. I use it for my mapping, and I use it for honestly, uh the the traditional mostly, and then I'll flip over the down scan whenever I want to really have a look. But and then the live scope. And this morning we went right back to that spot in the narrows where there was boat, boat, boat, boat. And I thought to myself, well, you know what? I'm going in there anyway. I know that there's fish over there. I know we saw them yesterday, I can fit in there, no problem. So I I went in and all of my technology was showing me that there was a shit ton of fish in there, but we weren't catching. And what that does is that gives you the ability to say, instead of back in the day when you were out with a guide and he'd say, Well, there's, you know, there's lots of fish here, or there's no fish here, or whatever. It's another teaching moment.

SPEAKER_11

Look, guys, see them, they're following your bait. Yes, they're not biting.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_11

No matter what we do, no matter what bait we change, they're just not going.

SPEAKER_07

That's right. At least they can see that you're doing your thing. You can, you number one, you prove that you're on fish. And number two, it gives you a visual representation of their mood.

SPEAKER_10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07

And um, I uh at one point, um, and we tried a bunch of different things. We tried uh uh even tried putting rattle traps down and and rip jigging rattle traps. And um, and and that didn't that didn't turn anybody on. Then we um I I had um um the three eighths, well actually I think they're half-inch or half ounce jigs or or a little bit bigger than three eighths, dropped one of those jigs down. I managed to maneuver now that I've got the remote for the trolling motor and I can sit in front of my electronics and I can maneuver us. I put us right on top of a beautiful school of walleye, uh sauger, whatever they were. And um uh Tom drops his bait straight down, and I'm watching the bait fall through the water column. It goes right through the middle of the fish, and as soon as they saw the jig, they all scattered. Like it was it was crazy. And uh I said, okay. And then I always, I always, Elliot is the guy that I uh that I um I I kind of change up, right? He said, Elliot, I went to the front of the boat, I got my the uh Willie's jig box out and I found the smallest. I found a one-eighth ounce jig. And I said, listen, it's gonna be real hard to get it to the bottom, but I believe you can do it. So we put a we we put a half a worm on, a one-eighth ounce jig, which is much smaller than the jigs that we were using, which presents challenges. And that challenge is current. There's current and getting it down, right? But because I had the anchor and I had a lot of control with the boat, I give him the one-eighth ounce jig. I explained to him to drop it to the bottom. And honestly, I don't know if he was getting it to the bottom or not, because he was catching so many fish in that window right before you showed up. Yeah, that I uh I just said to him, Whatever you're doing, keep doing it. Yeah, keep doing it. Okay, and uh Elliot really was the one that put the four keepers in a. I think he had three of the four keepers in the boat.

SPEAKER_11

I think I found you in a boat today. Yeah, I was like, I need to catch fish. I have a piranha max four. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not Matt, like not Mark and Fish. Yeah, yeah, uh yeah. We didn't catch. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07

The teaching of the technology is uh another great tool.

SPEAKER_05

See, I'm a perfect example of that when that mark Johnny and I went out the other day. I've never fished with a live scope before. I was glued to that screen. We went out for like a couple hours and got uh got to experience that live scope. Oh my god, I'm just like, Johnny, move that live scope. I can't see my jig. We found moving it around and we were messing around with some fish in deep water. Yeah, we found some fish in really deep water 46.

SPEAKER_11

As we're jigging them, Caleb's sitting there like, oh my god, it's coming up. Oh, it's coming up right now. He goes, Zoom in!

SPEAKER_08

Zoom in!

SPEAKER_05

Holy crap, man! Okay, zoom faster.

SPEAKER_07

I'm gonna lose them. Yeah, well, you know what? Live scope will do that to you.

SPEAKER_11

It's um it's the best guiding tool out there, I promise you that.

SPEAKER_09

Well, especially when you talk about you know, you got that client that's hard to deal with, and when you can actually say, like, you can prove it. There's your jig, there's the fist. Yeah, yeah. Well, like just figure it out. Do something different.

SPEAKER_11

I don't know. I've given you every bait I have. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07

Do something different, jig. But even before you give them every bait you have, that's all part of the curve, right? Okay, obviously a jig at a minnow isn't working right now.

SPEAKER_10

You can spend an hour in that spot.

SPEAKER_07

Yes. Let's pull it, let's drop them a worm. Let's see if we can get them to go in a worm. Let's upsize the jig, downsize the jig. Let's tie on a drop shot. Maybe the drop shot will go. Yes, let's let's play with color, right? And all of a sudden, now instead of having a pissed-off client because the guy doesn't know where the fish are, because they can't they can't understand the old technology, and you know, because the the the um traditional sonar, especially with walleyes, when they're stuck to the bottom. Yeah, when you say you see that that hump that's just a little bit of a different color.

SPEAKER_11

Those are four fossils that are higher, yeah.

SPEAKER_07

That that's a fish. And they're thinking in their head, that looks just like the bottom over here. That I don't see no fish there. Where are the fish? I think you're lying. There ain't no lying here. And then you can make it a challenge for them. Okay, guys, we got fish right here. Let's catch them. We gotta do something to catch them. And the other technique that I I find myself using is I will I'll say, okay. After this morning, I said, listen, um, we're gonna try this, this, and this. And if we can't get them to go, we're just gonna move because sometimes the the for whatever reason, these fish, they're not eating. Just shut down on that for a while. But if you catch a and and I'm giving us a half an hour, it's 10:30 now, at 11 o'clock, we're moving. And if you catch a fish, that buys you an extra five minutes, right? So then all of a sudden, you've got them working to try and figure it out and and and work as a as a team, and you bring them into the technology and into the into the fishing, which which is very, very cool. And it leaves people with an experience.

SPEAKER_11

Oh, they talk about it as soon as they get on the dock. Oh, yeah. I watched this fish come up to my jig and it circled around for five minutes, keep trying to jig it, didn't bite, or it did, and all of a sudden then the guide said, You're about to have a bite, and boom, I got a bite, and it's on, and you know.

SPEAKER_07

Or or I'll see the fish following, I'll say, Okay, pop it, pop it, drop it, raise it.

SPEAKER_10

Boom, I got it. Yeah, they're like, How do they do that?

SPEAKER_09

Yeah, we were sitting there yesterday morning, and all of a sudden, like six fish come through, and and they're six feet long on the screen, right? It's like, oh, look at that, look at that. Six of them come through. Yeah, and they were at least six feet long on the screen. Dang, yeah, that's crazy. That's very cool.

Humour, Energy, And Coaching New Anglers

SPEAKER_05

I I think a big strategy for me, sorry, Steve, a big strategy for me, I mean, my my guiding career has been short so far, but uh laughter, I think, is maybe the biggest key for me when it's slow. Oh, heck, is just cracking jokes one after the other and just keeping them laughing. Yeah, it just distracts them from compare that to like if you're just sitting there quiet trying to find some fish, it gives them time to like think about what's actually going on. Like they're like, Oh, we're not catching fish, and this is just slow, and he's not a funny guy. But if you're just cracking jokes and keeping a good conversation moving, it just keeps that thought out of their mind. And when they do get that bite, it's just so so much more exhilarating, and it's like, and uh, and like getting excited over fish too is is important to you guys, especially if guys don't catch like 40s all the time. It's like a 35 for myself. Like that's a really nice fish. I'm not like, oh, this is crazy. But if a guy, like a guest pulls up and I see they're excited, I get like I get fired up and it gets them going. It's like when you see the guide excited, you know it's a good fish. Yeah, you know, and it just makes them.

SPEAKER_11

I shake at the knees when I get musky. I don't care what size it is. I'm I'm screaming, I'm shaking at the knees. The guys are like, holy crap, John, are you good? I'm like, Yes, come on, it's a musky. Yeah, it doesn't matter. Yeah, you just get excited over the fish, that's why we do it, right?

SPEAKER_09

And you're talking about challenges there, Steve. Yeah. And and you look, you you you look at the group you have this week, and they're they're all very competent fishermen. Yes. So you can take and throw any technique you want at them. Yes. So it's easy to meet their expectations when they're good fishermen. Yes. But when you have those fishermen that have those expectations, and they can barely put a jig on the room. And they're holding the rod upside down.

SPEAKER_08

Where's all the fish?

SPEAKER_09

Yeah, you know, and so you know, you they're not catching nothing. You throw your line over the back for two seconds, and boom, boom, you're like, there's three fish. Okay, it's you, like you're a shitty fisherman. That's a tough walk though. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's in your head. It's okay, all right. You don't you don't have a clue. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07

And it's those people that you really have to work to teach.

SPEAKER_09

Yeah. Right? Those days are tiring for sure. And it's rewarding too when you actually mention something nice. I have right now, right? Like they're that they're not good fishermen, but their expectations aren't high. But there's still expectations there. Like last year we went out and and we had a 200 fish day. That's a great day. Like, yeah. No, it was a fly-in, but it was still a 200 fish day. Yeah. Um, you know, uh Zania. How do you that was ghoul? Oh, ghoul, even better. But you know, how how do you match that?

SPEAKER_07

Yeah. Well, like, I mean, I um I believe that when you get those people, it's my challenge to teach them.

SPEAKER_08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07

And um, and when they when they catch those fish, I think it means a lot to them. Um like I'll be honest with you, there's not been one time in the past two weeks when I've had uh guests in the boat that I've dropped a line. I have not I've not dropped a line. And I tell people that in the boat when they get into my boat, I I say, listen, I am not here to to fish with you. I am here to to have you catch the fish. You are my horses, so you know what? We gotta eat. Yeah, I try I divert, I divert a little bit of that pressure and put it on them, right? And I and and and I and I say, my job is to put you on the fish and to teach you how to catch them. And the rest is up to you because again, you're my horses, and we gotta eat. And and it's not just um um your your um um pride is probably a Too strong a word, but I I say, listen, we've got like 14 guides on the water, and I don't want to be the guy to go into the lunch, okay? Like I'm not I'm not I'm not gonna I'm not putting a line down.

SPEAKER_11

10 years of guiding, and I swear, not one day have I come uh not come in with a fish, but it has been tight and it has been random fish like normally eaten for shorelines.

SPEAKER_05

10 45 and you're really feeling the pressure, you're like, I'm keeping anything at this point.

SPEAKER_11

That sucker looks real good. That bass. Yeah.

Shore Lunch Pressure And The Drum Story

SPEAKER_07

Um the the Diaries family, no one have heard this story, but um um Pat and I did a shore lunch with uh freshwater drum with sheep's head. Oh gosh. Oh yeah. Oh you yeah, it wasn't that bad, honestly. It wasn't that bad. I cut uh and and Pat was dead against it.

SPEAKER_11

He was like I'm right there with Pat then.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, and and I and and all we had was um was uh um Pat had we were pulling in for shore lunch, and each one of us, this was our group uh from our our our Texan friends, and um I was assuming that Pat had a box full because Pat is he's a very good guide. Pat was assuming that I had a box full because you know we had fished it, I know how to fish it, and everything else. And we pulled in and um um they were just fishing the point, and one of the guests had a big drum on. And um Pat said, How many you got in the box? I said, none. He said, Uh-oh. We're going in like it's lunch, it's lunchtime. Oh shit. And I said, uh, I said that tie had this fish on. I said, uh Pat, what's Ty got on? He said it's a it's a big drum. I said, throw it in the box. And he did a double take. And I said, throw it in the box. He said, okay. So it was about an eight-pound drum. And um we we brought it in, and uh Pat and this now everybody we the way we would do it is I would like to involve people when they wanted to be involved. And everybody wants to gather wood for the fire, right? So we give everybody their task, and this was a group that had already been to the lodge and we knew, um, and they kind of knew the deal. So I walked over and Pat's like, we can't eat drum. I said, Yeah, we can. I've I tried it before, yeah, and it wasn't bad. It has uh it has a more firm um um uh texture. Yeah, uh, but as long as you cut that red fat, that bloodline, you need it. Well, it's there's also when you pull the skin off on the whole side of the fillet, there's that red fat. Yeah, you you trim that fat off, and then you grab the center of your fillet, and I I do it with the pike, and you peel it, one side will come off, and then you grab that piece of sinew that the the the mud line or the whatever you want to call it, their lateral line, and you zipper that right out, and you're left with white meat. It's not bad. But Pat didn't believe me. He's like, we can't eat this. I'm like, I put I remember distinctly. I put my hand on his shoulder and I looked him in the eye and I said, Pat, have you ever tried it? And he looked at me and he said, No. I said, then how do you know? Oh shit. And he said, All right. And what we didn't have any other choice. We were gonna eat, we're gonna eat fries and beans. Yeah. So we we we filleted it up. And uh, and it wasn't bad at all. Like, I mean, when you're cooking northern and walleye in oil and batter and everything else, I defy you to tell me the difference.

SPEAKER_11

Yeah, yeah, you can't tell.

SPEAKER_07

No. With sheep's head, you you can tell the difference. You can tell the difference. I bet. But not in a bad way. Like I say, it's it's more firm. And uh we we ate that drum and uh talk about it to this day.

SPEAKER_10

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_07

Now you need to ask me one question. Have you ever done it again? That's the question you have to ask me. Ask me. Have you done it again? No. Will you ever do it again? Hey, listen, if if I had to, if I I I had I I would eat freshwater drum without a problem.

unknown

Wow.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah. Now, it's on Lake Nipissing, and that's it's uh like I probably wouldn't eat freshwater drum out of a pond.

SPEAKER_11

Yeah, don't do it out of the red either.

SPEAKER_07

That's fire sounded better now, isn't it? Oh, it's great.

SPEAKER_11

I'll tell you what, a little bony.

SPEAKER_07

Wasn't bad. But those are the things that that you do when you're a guide. Yeah, yeah. You gotta make it. Or as a lodge owner under pressure, and you've never, and to this day, um, in my whole tenure, we've never not had a shore lunch. You send and that that is a lot of pressure too, because when you're going out as an individual guide, because a lot of times the only time that we would get together to do shore lunches with other guides is when we had a group that wanted to get together. Otherwise, it was your shore lunch in your place, yeah, and it was your experience. And that's that's a whole different pressure. The other day when I didn't bring in any fish, you know, we had caught a few that went, a couple were over the slot, a couple were under the slot. Um, but when you're out there and it's all on you, you know, sometimes lunch got pushed till 1 30 in the afternoon.

SPEAKER_11

Yeah, that happened those days. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_09

I might it was raining this morning. My my clients are elderly. I didn't get on the water fishing until quarter to eleven. Lunch is at noon. Yeah, yeah. Oh no, the fisher's on. And they're they're not the greatest fishermen either. So you're limited as to what you can actually do. Yeah, but no.

SPEAKER_10

We ate absolutely we ate.

SPEAKER_07

There was there was lots of uh lots of uh fish down there today. It was uh it was a great um bite was on. Well, like I say, this morning it was off. Uh by 11.

SPEAKER_11

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07

It was like 10:30, it was on. Yeah, yeah. We ended up getting what we needed. Yeah, we got what we needed. So any last words of advice to uh to our diaries family or any last thoughts?

Final Advice On Safety And Dreams

SPEAKER_09

No drugs, alcohol, sleeping.

SPEAKER_07

Oh, well, that's a good one. Yeah, yeah. Drugs and alcohol don't mix in boats, period, really.

SPEAKER_11

And if you have a dream to do what you love, which is like guiding or lodge work, just take the step and do it.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, I was just gonna say the same thing.

SPEAKER_11

That's that's the first step in doing exactly what you love. And you won't work a day in your life.

SPEAKER_05

That's what I think too, is you only live once, right? So you might as well just do it and see what happens.

SPEAKER_07

And from a lodge owner's point of view, you had mentioned back when you applied, you thought you needed to do something different because there was probably hundreds of applications. Yeah. Folks, believe me when I tell you, there are not hundreds of applications out there. They're not.

SPEAKER_11

Not everybody can do it either.

SPEAKER_07

No. If you go, if you if you um show your passion and and you you want to work, um there is there are definitely positions out there to be filled. For sure.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_10

So I got hired on farm experience.

SPEAKER_07

Well, that hey, that's that that right there as a lodge owner for every position, when somebody applied and I saw that they had they they were uh from they lived on a farm or they worked on a farm, that was as far as I went.

SPEAKER_10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07

If I saw the word farm, they were hired.

SPEAKER_09

Everybody work at a farm.

SPEAKER_07

There you go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_09

Yeah, probably you gotta do.

SPEAKER_07

Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, 100%. But listen, fellas, thank you so much for this. Yeah, it was a pleasure. It I really, really appreciate it. And uh um uh I'll leave uh I'll leave everybody with some last thoughts. Um

Do You Still Like Guiding Long Term

SPEAKER_07

my uh my um uh guiding days at uh at Two Rivers are coming to a close tomorrow. And uh my first episode that that I did up here, I um I was very honest with all of you out there in saying I really my biggest concern, I knew that I have the skills to do this job. I I I was never worried about that. My biggest worry, honestly, was wondering if I was gonna like it. Because it's one thing to moonlight as a lodge owner and spend a day in a boat once a month with people that you either like and under the um the guidelines that I set out, and we've all heard that, it's totally different to spend day after day in the boat. And I I remember um my guides, like uh I started with with three on staff and and slowly built up because there you could you could take a guide, you could go in your own boat, and some groups would come for a week and they'd want a guide every day. Some group some groups would come and they'd want a guide for one day. And I remember distinctly when I when I um was talking to Will, and Will wanted me to come and do this. The first thought that I that crossed my mind was was thinking about Pat and and um and uh Billy and those guys that I had that were that were my guides and working, you know, a hundred days in a row on the water, in the sun, in the elements, and thinking to myself, uh at my age, I'm only 50, but still, like do I want to subject myself to that kind of and and in my mind after after seeing those guys going out there for that many days, it was it it kind of got a little bit grueling. Like it's not it's a grind at at points in the season. It's not easy, it's not easy, and um, I just didn't think uh uh my biggest worry was uh can I do it? I knew I could do it skill-wise. Um I just didn't know if I was gonna like it. And uh I I I I I told you all that I would let you know at the end of the two weeks. And um honestly, I think I like it. Sweet. I think I like it. That's cool. Well, I know I like it. Well, let's do it some more. Yeah, the only question, my only question now is will I like it after a hundred days?

SPEAKER_11

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_11

It's been going.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, yeah, and that uh I don't know if I will ever get there, but you know, two, three weeks at a time, that's pretty, that's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_11

And then get back to us.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So there you have it, folks. Um, my two weeks of guiding was uh was successful. It um it was very enjoyable. And the biggest thing that I can that I can attribute that to, number one, is a great guiding team that's here. Will has done a very good job at assembling great guides. And um I think that this um community of people that are guiding here. And whether it's because it's a great fishery and there's fish everywhere, although it's not a big fishery, um, you guys, uh, I truly think everybody feels that all boats rise with the tide and nobody has hidden spots. Um information has flow uh flowed very freely, and that's the way it should be at every lodge. And I understand, like when you're you're at a place where the fishery is not as easy, and there's so much pressure for individuals to perform. And when you find a spot, you don't tell anybody. And I would always tell my staff, because the French River is a lot like that. We can go out and you can have 100 fish walleye days fairly easily at certain times of the year, but they're all small. They're they're they're 20 inches and less. Um, but there's days when you can go out there and you don't know where the hell they are, and and you come back in and somebody has had a great day, and you're like, hey, what's going on? And you get nothing. And I always would would try and coach my my group, listen, it's okay to have your your couple of A spots, but at very least, share what it is. Yeah, you don't have to share where it is, share the structure. What is it? At least where are you catching? Is it like we built a we built a pattern over the last three, two, three days that I've been here with the Northerns. And it's not my pattern, it's all of you guys saying, Hey, I caught fish here, I caught fish here, I caught fish back here. But the one commonality that I found is if you can find a bay that has a 10 to 5 foot flat that has cabbage coming up, you're gonna catch northerns. And you're gonna catch big ones. I've never seen um so many big fish congregated in such small areas.

SPEAKER_10

Oh, they're in pairs still. Like they're swimming in pairs, yeah.

SPEAKER_07

Like, I mean, two days ago we caught six or seven uh northerns over 30 inches in an area that might have been five acres. Like for me, that's that's that's pretty extraordinary. And for the guests, a shit ton of fun.

SPEAKER_08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07

And and that I'll end this on on on this note.

Why Two Rivers Earns Confidence

SPEAKER_07

Um, honestly, folks, um, Willie and and Adam here at Two Rivers, they uh they're a sponsor of of our show. And um now that I've been here and more than experienced the fishery, started to learn this fishery, um, and know the the the the regular characters and the and the guides that are here. Um I have uh a thousand percent confidence in telling you all that if you come here to fish, you will have an experience that you won't forget. You might not have days um where you're catching uh uh a hundred fish and and this and that, and it could be slow. But listen, I know from being at a lot of different bodies of water, every body of water has slow days. And um you guys have been telling me over the last week and a half that we're in a we're in a slow spell right now, and I think that this this fishing has been outstanding. We could have done three television shows here in in a matter of a of a of five days when we sometimes go places and struggle to get one in that time.

SPEAKER_11

Um I guess we're supposed to be.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah. Like, I mean, the upper French is a an absolutely stunning fishery. The the muskies are world class, but musky fishing's muskie fishing, man. Right? You don't get them all the time. You're lucky to get, you know, you're lucky to get one. The bass fishery is great, but as far as northern pike and walleye go, my god, what a what a gem that you guys have here, honestly. Yeah. Well, I guess that's enough promotion for Willie for one day. Again, thanks, guys. Really appreciate it. And folks, thank you for cut for listening to us and getting to this point in the show. Really appreciate it. Um,

Votes, Merch, And Thanks To Listeners

SPEAKER_07

and uh head on over to fishing canada.com. Uh, there's always wonderful giveaways. Uh Rick uh he he uh he uh corrected me the last uh on the last show. It's a 16-inch Garmin. He's got his votes in every day. Cowboy's got his votes in every day. And I'm working on my votes every day. Bada boy, bada boy, and all of you should too. All of you should too. And and while you're there, have a look at the merch. You know, the the fish and candle logo is one of my favorite and and probably the most iconic fishing logo on the planet. So let's plaster it everywhere. And uh thus brings us to the conclusion of another episode of Diaries of a Lodge Owner, Stories of the North. I'm

Closing Music And More Shows

SPEAKER_07

a good old boy, never meaning no harm.

SPEAKER_09

I'll be the only you ever saw been reeling in the hog since the day I was born, bending my rod, stretching my line. Someday I might want a lodge and that'd be fine.

SPEAKER_07

I'll be making my way, the only way I know how working hard and sharing the north with all my powers. But I'm a good old boy, about a lodge and live my dream, and now I'm here talking about how life can be as good as it seems. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06

Hi everybody, I'm Angelo Viola. And I'm Pete Bowman. Now you might know us as the hosts of Canada's favorite fishing show, but now we're hosting a podcast. That's right. Every Thursday, Ang and I will be right here in your ears, bringing you a brand new episode of Outdoor Journal Radio. Hmm. Now, what are we going to talk about for two hours every week? Well, you know there's gonna be a lot of fishing.

SPEAKER_00

I knew exactly where those fish were going to be and how to cod them, and they were easy to cod.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, but it's not just a fishing show. We're going to be talking to people from all facets of the outdoors, from athletes, all the other guys would go golfing.

SPEAKER_00

Me and Garchomp Turk, and all Iraqis would go fishing. The scientists. But now that we're looking foresting or anything, it's the perfect transmission environment for line with people.

SPEAKER_02

If any game isn't cooked properly, marinated for me, you will taste it.

SPEAKER_06

And whoever else will pick up the phone. Wherever you are, Outdoor Journal Radio seeks to answer the questions and tell the stories of all those who enjoy being outside. Find us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

SPEAKER_01

As the world gets louder and louder, the lessons of our natural world become harder and harder to hear, but they are still available to those who know where to listen. I'm Jerry Oulette, and I was honored to serve as Ontario's Minister of Natural Resources. However, my journey into the woods didn't come from politics. Rather, it came from my time in the bush and a mushroom. In 2015, I was introduced to the birch-hungry fungus known as Chaga, a tree conch, with centuries of medicinal use by indigenous peoples all over the globe. After nearly a decade of harvest, use, testimonials, and research, my skepticism has faded to obsession. And I now spend my life dedicated to improving the lives of others through natural means. But that's not what the show is about. My pursuit of the strange mushroom and my passion for the outdoors has brought me to the places and around the people that are shaped by our natural world. On Outdoor Journal Radio's Under the Canopy podcast, I'm going to take you along with me to see the places, meet the people that will help you find your outdoor passion and help you live a life close to nature and under the canopy. Find Under the Canopy now on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever else you get your podcasts.