Episode 153: Sell The Experience

A great business can fail for a painfully simple reason: the owner forgets what they are actually selling. Sitting on the island on the Upper French River, we talk with Michael Scates about the moment that made that lesson impossible to ignore and why “features” like cabins, boats, square footage, or even fishing are never the full product. What people buy is confidence, an experience, and the feeling that the person across the table is real.

We rewind to the early Chaudiere Lodge days, when the property looked strong on paper but the numbers and the vibe told a different story. One short exchange with a guest revealed the true gap: service, warmth, and authenticity. From there, we connect lodge ownership to Mike’s path into commercial real estate, where cold calls, rejection, and high-stakes decisions teach the same rule. Whether it is a week in Northern Ontario or a major lease, trust is the currency, and integrity is the only way to earn it.

We also get into the hard parts that do not show up in textbooks: asking for feedback when you know it might hurt, building a team culture that survives conflict, paying good people fairly, and focusing on what you can control so the guest experience stays strong. We share the sacrifices behind “hard work”, the late nights, the pressure, the family stress, and the discipline to keep showing up ready.

If you are building a fishing lodge business, a hospitality brand, or any service-based company, this conversation will sharpen how you lead, sell, and listen. Subscribe, share this with someone chasing a big goal, and leave a review telling us what lesson you are taking into your own work.

Transcript

What Are You Really Selling

SPEAKER_05 0:05

You gotta really figure out what you're what you're selling. Like you, you weren't selling the lodge, you weren't selling the the fishing next necessarily. What you were selling is you were selling an experience. And the thing was, is part of that experience is authenticity. Yes. The authenticity from top to bottom, right? And part of that is the person that's operating, operating that lodge. And you don't want to feel like you got a sales guy. You want to feel like the person that you're dealing with is exactly the person that they are every day, right?

SPEAKER_07 0:36

This week on the Outdoor Journal Radio Podcast Networks, Diaries of a Lodge Owner, Stories of the North. Long before Chaudiere Lodge became my home, my livelihood, and one of the biggest adventures of my life, it was just an idea. A property I was trying to figure out. One of the first people to walk through that idea with me was my good friend Michael Scate. Since then, our roads have gone in very different directions. But somehow, they followed a remarkably similar path. On this show, Michael and I sit down and talk about business. Not the kind that you learn from a textbook, but the kind you learn when your name, your money, and your reputation are all on the line. From an island fishing lodge to the upper levels of commercial real estate, we talk about lessons that cost both worlds. Relationships, trust, calculated risk, hard work, knowing your customer, and recognizing an opportunity when everyone else is still looking at the problem. So what does leasing some of the biggest pieces of real estate in the country have in common with selling a weak fishing lodge in Northern Ontario? As it turns out, quite a bit. Because buildings, boats, balance sheets, and shorelunches may all be part of the business. But they're not telling you what you're selling. You're selling confidence, you're selling an experience, and above all else, you're selling yourself. This week, we find out what it really takes to turn an opportunity into a livelihood, and a livelihood into success. Here's my conversation with Michael Scates. Mike,

Welcome And Full Circle Friendship

SPEAKER_07 2:40

welcome to the show. Thanks, Steve.

SPEAKER_05 2:43

I appreciate having me on.

SPEAKER_07 2:44

No problem. And listen, folks, we're coming to you live. Well, it's recorded, but from the island on the Upper French River. And Mike, you have been uh one of my longest and oldest friends. And um, like in the top, off the top, you were one of the very first people that come to look at the Chaudiere Lodge with me. Yeah, absolutely. And I remember um asking you and saying, Hey, Mike, I got this thing on the go. I knew that you were just getting into real estate and everything else. And I thought to myself, you know what? Mike's a great guy to come and have a look. Because back in those days, there was not very many people that thought that this was going to be a success. That's uh success. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. And I remember I come from a uh bass fishing uh tournament. I was in a tournament, bass fishing, and you, yourself, and Andrew G. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 3:52

Yeah, Andrew G, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_07 3:55

Met me on Highway 69 somewhere, and we drove up here and uh we pulled into uh the McGeezy Marina where Jerry had told me. Yeah, and I was getting ready to launch. I had a skeeter, uh like a 1997, 18-foot skeeter bass boat, and I was backing it in to the boat launch, hadn't quite got it in the water, and this big uh Boston whaler pulled up, and it was Jerry, and he yelled at me across from the water. He says, You Steve? I'm like, Yeah, I'm Steve. He's like, Yeah, you liked your prop. And I'm like thinking about like, what is where is this going? And I said, Yeah, as a matter of fact, I do like my prop. And he said, Wow, leave it on the trailer, because you're gonna smash your prop on the rocks. And I was like, what? I said, I have GPS. He said, leave it on the trailer. And I said, Well, I got a lot of I got a lot of gear in here, my GPS and everything. Do I need to like lock it up or what's the deal? He said, Don't worry about it. Nothing gets stolen here. And to his credit, for I guess I've been here now, I don't know, going on 18 years. Yeah, nothing has ever been stolen. Not a fucking thing. So anyway, okay. So I parked it and we got into the Boston Whaler with him. I remember he had a tumbler. Oh, yeah. Remember that? Absolutely. And the dash that he was drinking. And uh, we come around, actually, it's the island that uh that we have now, there's a little hole in the wall right over on that far side. And he brought us through that because

First Tour Of The Lodge

SPEAKER_07 5:45

in the evening, when all of the lights are on at Chaudiere, when you come through that hole in the wall and you see the lodge like right in front of you with the lights, it looked beautiful. Like I remember all of the lights of the lodge were glowing this orange color, and it was very impressive. But uh, we drove up to the dock, and then um, you remember when we sat down in that main area, then the lounge, yes, he had three like uh lazy boy chairs, and then his lazy boy chair. Yep. And in the corner was an old wood box. Yep. Absolutely. And we sat down and he starts rambling on about it. He says, You want a beer? And I was tired. I don't know about you guys, but I was like, okay, I'll have a beer. So he passes us out of beer and he takes that glass, and it was like an 18-ounce, like a, you know, like a the big glass that you would get orange juice in. Yes, you know what I mean? Absolutely, and he went into a little cupboard behind his chair and pulled out a bottle. I didn't know what it was at the time, and he filled that glass up. It was four or five fingers. 100% three-quarters of give us a beer. Absolutely. He sat down. He talked and talked and talked. I drank the beer. I'm looking at you guys. He drank this whole glass and he told a story about how he had just broke his ribs because he was coming down the stairs uh from the office and the bedrooms upstairs, and it's steep, and he fell down the stairs trying to get a glass glass. Anyway, we had two beers and he had two tumblers full. Yep. And it turned out to be Barnaby and Scotch. Yep. Right. But we sat there and uh you mentioned it about an hour ago when we're sitting down on the dock. Oh, I remember it. It was my guessing. Well, because they've heard the the the Diaries family out there, folks, you've heard my version of this story.

SPEAKER_05 7:46

Well, I mean, I think like because I remember like because when you were looking at it, I think one of the challenges was like, look, so he was asking for X, and one of the issues was is if you looked at the revenue for what he was bringing in and you saw kind of where it started and then kind of where it was.

SPEAKER_07 8:02

And he was losing money hand over fist. 100%. He was showing in two corporations, he was showing over the last three years were losses of in the hundreds of thousands.

SPEAKER_05 8:13

Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, and and to be fair, like when we showed up on the shore and you look at the property, you looked at the buildings, and you're like, and and and it was a great piece of property in every way, right? The lodge was amazing, both buildings for you know, in terms of the you know, the little bit that we had seen them, they look great. And you know, you again, you kind of in the back of your mind, you're like, well, why is this place struggling? Why is it struggling? Right. And and so that's kind of part of why we were there was to try and understand, like, look, it seems like

The Moment The Problem Shows

SPEAKER_05 8:46

a really good deal, but the reality is that the the revenue here isn't exactly what it was and maybe what it should be. So we're sitting there, yeah, to your point, and he's having his drink and we're having our beer. And I remember it was it was uh late in the morning. In the morning. In the morning.

SPEAKER_07 9:00

This was first thing in the morning.

SPEAKER_05 9:02

First thing in the morning, and a lady and her husband comes up and she she kind of pokes him on the shoulder and he seems a little annoyed. And and she's like, Look, I've just I just want to ask, like, where where would you recommend that we go and fish? And he literally looks at her and says, in the lake. I try the lake, and we're all just kind of like, and you know, you're kind of put back a little bit, right? Because it was definitely a little bit rude.

SPEAKER_07 9:26

Let's be fair. I remember it as the man and the woman come in, and I kind of remember the man saying, and he they were they waited. Yes, 100%. They waited for a lot, and Jerry was talking to us, looking straight at us, yeah. We use our focus, and he's talking about the fucking septic system and all kinds of different shit. And I don't even and I remember feeling extremely uncomfortable because this the the the I remembered it as a man, but this couple is standing there. Absolutely, and finally, when Jerry uh stops talking for a moment and they get that chance to say something, and uh I thought that where can we find some walleyes or go fishing in the lake? Yeah, yeah. And without, like, I mean, the point of the story is without even thinking about it, he left our conversation, looked them in the eye, and said, I try the lake.

SPEAKER_05 10:30

That's exactly what he did. And right then and there, like, let's be fair, Stever, like right then and there, like I.

SPEAKER_07 10:41

Because just like you're gonna say, yeah, and you, and I want you to say it, yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought to myself, if there is one person here with his behavior, I can do so much.

SPEAKER_05 10:56

100%. And that was exactly it. And I mean, you recognize where the issue was, right? Because I mean, let's be fair, like, you know, if we're talking about what you're selling when you own a lodge, what are you selling? You're selling a great experience. Yeah, that's what you're selling. You're not selling, you're not necessarily selling fishing, you're not selling a bell, you're not somebody's freezer. You're it's it's it's an experience, it's a whole experience of what it is to kind of be in Ontario's north, what it is to stay in a lodge, what it is to have good food, what it is to do great fishing. And the reality was that you look at that in one instance and you go, okay, I think I know what the problem is. Yeah, I think I know what the problem is. Yeah, right. And I think, like, I mean, I I remember you and I looking at each other, and I and and I think we both picked it up at the same time is like that's where the opportunity was. Yeah, it had nothing to do with the location, it had nothing to do with the lodge, it had nothing to do with what the accommodations was. It was we had to create an experience, and I can only speak if I was in their shoes and those people, how uncomfortable I would be. And how offended and how offended I would have been. And I I'm never going back. Yeah. If that's how I'm being treated by the person that owns the lodge, I I mean, I'm sorry, Jerry. Like Jerry treated us really well. But Jerry, I'm sorry. I'm not coming back. Yeah. I'm not coming back. Yeah. Right? And and and and and you know, but but but to be fair, you know, from Jerry's perspective, that was a very negative thing. I think from your perspective, that was a very positive thing. Oh, I think. Because I mean, let's be honest, like Steve. Like, I mean, the the you know, of all the people that I grew up with and all the people I've been around, that is something that you would never see from you, right? No, you would never see, you would never see that from Steve.

SPEAKER_07 12:40

Like, I mean, if I could describe myself a little bit, I feel like I'm I'm an empath. I I would agree. Which, you know, I feel how people feel. I would agree. I I I as soon as I meet you, I feel what you're feeling. Yep. Right? Yeah, you know, and the same in the dining room year, like I felt if you weren't having a good time. And I made sure that I grabbed my notebook, I grabbed you, not by the hand, but a lot of people in and folks, again, you know this, you've heard it before. I would go in the dining room, and if I had any inkling that you weren't having a good time, I would say, Listen, I know the dining room's not a place to discuss things, but I'd really appreciate if I could bring a bottle of wine over to your cottage tonight, we'll sit in a screen porch, and you can tell me about your stay up into this point. Because it is my job to make sure that when you come here, you have the most outstanding experience that you that I can provide you. And and my goal is to make it the most outstanding experience you've ever had.

SPEAKER_05 13:51

Well, I would agree. And let's be fair: if somebody came when you were owning it and asked that same question, you know, Mike, Andrew, I just need a minute. And you go over it, and and and in all likelihood, you go, you have a map on the wall, you say, Hey, look. Okay, so we're here. What do you want to catch? You want to catch musky, you want to catch a pickerel? What do you want? What do you want to catch a bass? Where do you want to what do you want to catch? What do you want to catch? Okay, here's some great spots for you to go. So grab one of those boats, go out there, and here's some of those spots that I that you know that we've caught tons of bass, we've caught tons of uh muskie, we've caught tons of pickerel. Go there, go there, right? And and and you know what? Those people leave that conversation, they feel good, and feel good. And let's be fair, you've armed them now with the best opportunity to go and catch something. Why? So that they can have a great experience at your lodge. And they come back, and they come back, and they

Alcohol And Showing Up Ready

SPEAKER_05 14:45

tell every single one of their friends about hey, you know what? This was an amazing experience. They made sure they took care of us in the lodge, they took care of us in terms of of the food, of the accommodations, and when we wanted to go fish, even though, you know what, maybe we didn't get a guide, they would be sure to make sure that we knew where we could go to get fish. Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_07 15:05

A hundred percent. Absolutely. And it was some wow, and the other the other thing that that that was very obvious, and folks, you know this story that I tell about Mike Apron when uh he owned uh when I did my first show at the Toronto Sportsman show, he was my neighbor in the booth next door, and he owned a um campground slash fishing lodge on Rice Lake. And uh we hit it off. Long story short, you all know it. Um he he gave me a piece of advice at the end of that week, and he thought about he really this was and and to this day is probably one of the most important pieces of pieces of advice that anybody could have given me at that time. And um, and my mom was squawking about it too. Um, but Mike came up to me and he said, Steve, there's two kinds of lodge owners. There's and only one are successful. Yeah, there's the ones that drink and the ones that don't. Right. Be sure that you make the right decision. And at the time, you know, we would probably on the city. Oh, 100%. You know, I I didn't come, I wasn't the guy that came home and drank every night or whatever. No, no, and none of the time. Sometimes it would be two, three weeks. Yeah. But you know what? When we met Jerry, this was prior to Mike Apron talking to me about this. And then since he he he mentioned it to me, I start thinking about all of the owners of the lodges in this area going back in history, and you know what got them all? Alcoholism. Yeah, absolutely. You remember Jerry? Yes, that was his problem. That was 100%. Oh my god. Well, besides the fact that he was a prick and he was arrogant, not to me, and and he was American, but there's no correlation there. No, no, no. But he was just an arrogant prick and um and and an awful, awful alcoholic. Like that, yes, those glasses of booze that he drank that night, and then in the morning, when we had this whole deal with, you know, the people that walked in and he told them to go try the lake, then he got up and he was a slight man, and his belly was so big and fat, and it was sloshing. And that, like, I mean, the man, what did you tell me when we left that that that uh when we left that uh show dear at that point? And you said to me about Jerry. Oh fuck.

SPEAKER_05 17:41

Well, I mean, uh what I remember about thinking about it was like, and you know what, like I I want to be clear, like Jerry was very good to us. Very good to us. But that was definitely the problem. Because we were looking to buy it 100%, but that was definitely the problem, right? Like Jerry was the problem, and I mean, like, I mean, I remember going up to like I mean, I said this to you earlier, which was I remember going up to his room and he had the two big jugs of water there, and you knew that what he was doing was Jerry was sitting there and spending his time having drinks, and that's what he was using the lodge for. Like he had totally forgotten why he was there.

SPEAKER_07 18:19

Well, he was using it, and Jerry was from a very wealthy family. Yep, they own North American Spoon, which in the United States, um, and this is his family, is the same as E.D. Smith in Canada. Yeah. Like you go into every grocery store in in the whole country, and their products are on the streets. Right. Right. And he was he was using it at the end, and he was a smart man, like he was a Harvard graduate. Correct. And a Harvard graduate coming from money, yep, got caught in that web. And listen, I don't, I don't claim to be perfect, and it it's it's it's a it's a disease. Yep. But when when Mike told me that piece of information, I really come to appreciate it after, you know, a couple of years, three, four years into the business, where people are coming to the island and they're on holidays. Yep. They're coming to see me, and the first thing they do is give me a hug and ask me if I want a drink. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. You know, and and I would always have, you know, there were there were things that I would do because I couldn't. Yeah. And I would say, oh boys, you know what? It's not nine, it's it's nine o'clock somewhere, but it ain't nine o'clock here. Give them some baloney thing. I'll tell you what, maybe tonight we'll have some drinks. Correct. And then we would have a jam night or whatever. And my my go-to uh thing to make sure that I didn't drink, but I still was able to entertain everybody, I would tell the girls, I would have my servers, I would have, you know, if we planned a jam night, I would at least have one of the girls come out. And it was just casual. Most times all of them come to jam nights because it was a social thing for all of the staff. And, you know, later on, with with the policies and everything that I come up with as far as the um uh the the um the worker um uh book, your handbook, right? I would say to all of the staff, you're allowed to socialize with the guests absolutely in public areas, never cottages. Um and there is a soft curfew of midnight. So that meant that, and no public drunkenness. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? So you could have a few drinks. I was good with that, but come midnight, you know. I didn't want everybody to say, she says it's midnight and I have to go to bed. You know, yeah. I would say, listen, it's a soft curfew, come midnight, go and say your goodbyes and everything else, and go back to the staff house and go to bed. Because you got to be up at 6 a.m. Well, every day. 100%.

SPEAKER_05 21:14

Well, like let's look at what we're doing here. We're running a business. Yes. Running a business. Yes. We are running a business. That's what we're doing, right? So whether you're running a lodge or you're leasing and selling commercial real estate, like what I did. And let's be fair, like alcoholism is in every business. Yeah. It is. Any high-end business, alcoholism is in every single business. And I'll be honest with you, it doesn't matter whether it's like I said, running a lodge or leasing office space, you better show up every goddamn day and be ready to tackle the world. Because if you're not, guess what? Your business isn't going to be successful. Yes. It's not.

SPEAKER_07 21:57

Welcome

Sponsor And Network Messages

SPEAKER_07 21:58

to Two Rivers Lodge. Where we know that our hard work and determination creates your best experiences. You'll arrive as a guest with Lee's family. Surrounded by a multi-species fishing mecca like no other. Our elite cabins and professional staff are ready to make your stay. Unforgettable. Experience the difference. Because the two rivers, every cast is a story, and every guest is a part of the family.

SPEAKER_02 22:41

Back in 2016, Frank and I had a vision to amass the single largest database of Muskie angling education material anywhere in the world.

SPEAKER_03 22:50

Our dream was to harness the knowledge of this amazing community and share it with passionate anglers just like you.

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Thus, the Ugly Pike Podcast was born and quickly grew to become one of the top fishing podcasts in North America.

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Step into the world of angling adventures and embrace the thrill of the catch with the Ugly Pike Podcast. Join us on our quest to understand what makes us different as anglers and to uncover what it takes to go after the infamous Fish of 10,000 casts.

SPEAKER_02 23:18

The Ugly Pike Podcast isn't just about fishing, it's about creating a tight-knit community of passionate anglers who share the same love for the sport. Through laughter, through camaraderie, and an unwavering spirit of adventure, this podcast will bring people together. Subscribe now and never miss a moment of our angling adventures.

SPEAKER_03 23:35

Tight lines, everyone.

SPEAKER_02 23:37

Find Ugly Pike now on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever else you get your podcasts.

Mike’s Leap Into Real Estate

SPEAKER_07 23:46

So I would love to kind of unpack the um uh your path because I know for me, like I was a sheet metal mechanic and hated my freaking life. And I I ended up taking this chance to be successful doing something that I really loved. What's your story? How did it happen?

SPEAKER_05 24:11

Yeah, so like I mean, for me, like university educated. So I went to University of Waterloo. And so for me, I remember there was a one moment in time that I was thinking, okay, I wanted to kind of get in stocks and bonds. So I read every book I could read on stocks and bonds. And then I was like, you know what? No, no, no. I'm gonna be a lawyer. And it was, you know, I didn't have like to be fair, I didn't have a lot of friends in university. I was traveling back and forth from home every weekend, and yeah, I didn't have a lot of friends. And and the one friend I did, Luke Crosby was his name, and we were sitting there and we were chatting, and he became a lawyer. He was a lawyer at Tories, and I think he's an in-house lawyer now. But, anyways, he looks at me and he says, Why are you becoming a lawyer? I said, Well, I want to make enough money so that I could own my own real estate holding company. And you know, like I'm having struggle in figuring out where I can make enough money. And I knew that I had the grades to be able to get into law school and went and wrote my outside. He says, Why are you becoming a lawyer? Why don't you just get into real estate? If that's my you know, so like I, you know, how how smart am I, right? And I look at that and I go, that's a fair question. He says, Well, I I worked at this place, they make a ton of dough, a bunch of assholes, yeah, but they make a ton of dough. And if you want, if you want an interview, I'll get you one. And it was at a place called Royal Page Commercial, which is now Cushman in Wakefield. Yeah. So I'm like, yeah, I want I want an interview. So, anyways, I I put this, I put my resume together, I submitted it. He said, uh, this guy named Mike Case, I'll I'll tell him, I'll make sure your your resume gets to the top of the pile. And Mike was helping with the hiring, and and so I got an interview. And I remember, and so my interview was, I thought it was going amazing. So there's this guy, uh Craig, Craig Hat's his name, and Lewis, I forget what his last name is. Anyway, so I had them laughing and we're great, it's all going well. And a guy named Stuart Barron, which I love Stuart to this very day. He's he's a very bright uh research guy out of commercial real estate, excellent human being. He comes walking in. And we're, he's probably, this is 20 minutes in, he's way late. Comes in, sits down, and I start talking to him for maybe about a minute, and he looks at me and he goes, uh, I don't think that you would be a great salesperson. Put me right on my heels. Right on my heels. And I'm thinking, how the hell am I gonna respond to this? And and but I was like, okay, you know what? I just gotta be honest. And I looked at him and I said, you know what, you could be absolutely right. I've never sold a thing in my life. I don't know anything about sales. The only thing I know is that there, Stuart, there's not gonna be a single human being that's gonna walk into this boardroom that wants this job more than me. That's all I know. That is all I know. And it didn't go very much longer than that. And and anyways, hey, and he took me around, he kind of introduced me some people on the floor, and and I was dumbfounded because I think that for me, that was probably the second time that I had ever been in an office building in my entire life. Yeah, the only other time I had ever been in an office building was when I wrote the CSC, when I thought I was gonna become a stockbroker. Yeah, and that was so that was the second time, and I was in awe. I met some guys that I know today, Matt Pick and Bastable, like I met Jay Littlejohn, I met all these guys, and and so, anyways, he let me go. And I was a couple weeks, and I was emailing them back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And finally they told me, Hey, look, we're gonna give you the spot. And what it was, it was a basically a data entry spot. And you were in the research department, you did data entry and you did research with the idea that hopefully you get into sales. When I got that job, I remember jumping around my apartment in Kitchener as though I had won the goddamn lottery. No, I was the most excited human being on earth because I'm like, man, I spent all this time in university and I just want an opportunity to kind of go and do something. Yeah. Right. I, you know, my dad had worked in kind of plumbing, heating, electrical, and I knew that that's not what I wanted to do. And I knew, but if that's what I, if ultimately at the end of the day, that that you know, if things didn't work out, I'd go back and do that. And it was never my goal. I could never imagine you as a plumber, right? Right. And and you know what it was, it never that I didn't want that, and it's not saying anything about that, but it's just not what I wanted.

SPEAKER_08 28:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 28:14

So, anyways, I got it, and man, I'm gonna tell you like the one thing I will give myself is I worked my ass off. There, like, and exactly what I told him is that, hey, look, you hire me, I will work hard. And I wasn't the best, I wasn't the brightest. I just, I was like, look, like, there is nobody here that is going to outwork me because that is the one thing I can control. I can control that. There's a lot of things I can't control because you know, the thing is you get into commercial real estate in Toronto, and this isn't me giving anything or taking anything away, you know, because they come from families that are Toronto families and they're successful, and their dad owns this business, and they were part of this, and their real estate legacy. And it's hard to compete, right? Because, you know, I'm a kid that grew up in the country and you know, like you're a farm boy. I'm a farm boy, right? And that's what I grew up with. So it was, you know, so I had no leg up. The only thing I had was all the things I control, and I can control how hard I work. And so I just frigging worked

Cold Calling And Outworking Everyone

SPEAKER_05 29:10

and worked and worked and tried to impress people to get opportunities, right? And when I got opportunities, I feel like, you know, I I I exploited them. And I and I'll tell you, like, look, like for the longest time, uh, I struggled. I struggled horribly. Like, I remember so we went down to see it was the Maddie in Toronto, and I'm in, and I got a pair of shoes. So this is the thing, like the Maddie? Yeah, the Maddie. So it was like up in it was up in like Midtown Toronto. It was like kind of like a college bar. Oh, bar. So we were all young and up there, and I remember I had a pair of shoes that had freaking holes in. I remember going to a it was an Oxford event, and the head of Oxford was talking to a guy that I knew, George Tedder, and George introduces me, and the guy looks right down at my shoes, and I had holes in my shoes because I couldn't afford shoes. I couldn't afford new shoes. I had holes in them, was what it was. So there I am, and I'm in this trench coat, I'm in this cheap suit, and this, and I had lost my TTC pass. And I'm like, oh my God, I can't even afford to buy a TTC pass. Um so I'm drunk, I'm without this TTC pass, figuring out how the hell I'm gonna get home. And I just sat on this bench and I shed some tears. Like, to be honest, yeah, here I am. I'm in my mid-20s. I feel like, you know what, I I I got I was an honors, I was an honor student in university, I did well, like had all these past, and things just weren't working. Yeah, I was getting the shit kicked out of me, right? And I'm sitting on this. Were you married at that point? I was to Earth, yeah. And I was, and I was failing. And I was failing. And I'm sitting there, I'm in my trench coat, and I'm having a bit of a cry, and all of a sudden I feel these snowballs. A bunch of fucking guys were throwing snowballs at me.

SPEAKER_07 30:58

No. Just to put the cherry on the top, right? Oh, yeah. Bunch of junk guys walking out. Oh my god. Fucking snowballs.

SPEAKER_05 31:06

Absolutely. They're throwing them on at me. And and you know what? But it's like, what am I gonna do? What am I gonna do? Right? So you kind of you pick yourself up by the bootstraps, you get down, and then things start to happen. Like there were some guys that, you know, like guys like B. Billenkoff and Dirk Snyder and Doug Baldwin, and these guys that, you know, they had this business that it wasn't their core business, but it was business that was meaningful for me. And it allowed me to start making guys like Ted Riley, great guy, another really good guy that really helped me through my career. And they started to help me. And all of a sudden, you kind of catch a tailwind, right? What kind of businesses were they running that helped you? So they were so they were leasing guys just like I was trying to be. And and so like they were, but they were, you know, they were farther down the line. Like I remember Derek Snyder was running like Thompson Reuters at the time, very successful guy, and doing doing leasing deals all around the world. Basically, you're just looking for a building. So basically, what we were doing is like our job was you know to find companies and sell them on the idea, like, look, we're going to help you. So, you know, you have a whole kind of portfolio of offices, right? So it's corporate business. So the idea that, you know, you have these companies that have the offices, and what we're gonna do is we're gonna help you find offices, help you through the process, make sure that that process is seamless and you're driving as much value through that process as you possibly can, right? And that's what we're selling. It's a tough thing to sell. There's like there's 400 guys in the city, and you're on the phone. Like I remember, like me, trying to build a business and we were cold calling, right? So the whole thing is like I have no relationships. So my only avenue is I got to get on a phone and I got to call people. And you would be surprised the number of people would tell you to, like, literally to fuck off. Yeah. Right? They're telling you to fuck off, and they're telling you to do all and and and they treat you like garbage, and partially because you're the fourth guy that day that's called them. Well, and you can't blame them. And you can't blame them. I understand, right? And so, you know, you're there, and what I used to do is I used to have 50 paper clips. I'd put them on my desk and I'd have a coffee cup, and so I'd take a paper clip every call and I'd put it in. I need to make sure that I do 50 calls a day. So I couldn't leave until that pile of paper clips was done. And so you think about it. So you get in there, you get at nine o'clock in the morning, you start your calls, and you might get through those paper clips in a couple hours or however long it was. And then you're like, okay, now what? So then you go around. So me, I'm like, well, I gotta make my day as productive as possible. I'd go around and be a nuisance. I'd be like, hey guys, you have something you need help with, blah, blah, blah. You go around, and and you just do that and you just try and figure it out. Like, that's what the life was for me at the time. And like I said, you kind of catch a tailwind, you start making some money. But the big thing, I think the big change for me in my career is I remember I was probably about three or four years in, and I had done a few deals, and it was good. And I got to meet some guys from a company called Slate Properties, and um, we were out, it it was we were in a bar, and a friend of mine, now friend, was uh uh Adam Legier. And I'm like, look, you know what? I love the opportunity to work for a company like yours because that's exactly what and they did a bunch of listing work. And I'm like, we'd love to work for companies, and but I said, I recognize that there's guys here, and so that's not an avenue for me. And he looks at me, he says, like, look, well, company called Ashler Urban Real Estate is that if you want to go work there, I'll make sure that you get it on our listings. So I took Christmas, I interviewed, I interviewed with my then future partners, so is Jeff Thomas and Craig Smith. And Craig Smith, who is a dear friend of mine to this day, I went and interviewed with him. And uh I could tell that the interview didn't go real well. The interview didn't go real well. Craig, Craig didn't gravitate towards me, right? It was one of those things. He just didn't gravitate towards me, uh-huh, which was fair. And so I left there and I was a little, but I remember he called me back and he's like, Well, client gets what the client wants, so we're gonna hire you, right? So Adam Legier was the guy that got me the job, yeah. And that changed my life. That job changed my life. So like I went from really struggling to uh to really kind of really doing some business instantaneously, and it kind of grew from there. And to be honest with you, those were probably so that was in 2007. We sold the business, so I became a partner at Ashler with Craig and Jeff uh and Frazier.

SPEAKER_07 35:25

What year was that?

SPEAKER_05 35:25

2000 and so 2007 was when I started. Well, you I probably bought in probably early, kind of let's just say 2011, 2012. Uh, I sat in office with with Jeff Thomas.

SPEAKER_07 35:36

So this would have been roughly the same timeline that I bought the lobby. 100%.

SPEAKER_05 35:40

So that that is exactly because those are the guys that if you remember when I brought them up and passed out in your in your lobby, yeah, those were the guys. Yeah. Those were the guys. Yes, those were the guys, and they were unbelievable guys. They were unbelievable guys. And so here we are, and this is this really small real estate firm in downtown Toronto. We're all around the same age and trying to figure it out. Those those years from 2007, 2017, uh, in terms of my career, were a hundred percent the best that I ever had. Ten years. It was amazing. Exactly. Yeah, it was it was incredible. It was incredible.

SPEAKER_07 36:17

So, what were some of the things that made it incredible?

SPEAKER_05 36:21

Well, I think what it was is you know, you you you hear things about culture, and people will tell you, like, look, and again, like for people on the that are listening to the podcast

Culture That Wins Teams And Standards

SPEAKER_05 36:30

and you're building your business, and it and this I think applies across the board. People say that they have good culture, they don't have good culture. What good culture is, is if you're if your people really truly believe that they're part of a team, you got a good culture. Yeah, you got a great culture, you do. And I think like there, because we were small enough, and in terms of the way that our business, and you don't want to get the nuances of it, but the way our business works, there wasn't a lot of people stepping on each other's toes. So everybody had their little piece of the world that they could make money and they could be successful, and nobody was really getting in their way. So there really was like a raw, raw part of it. But at the same time, it was a culture of hard work. Like, you know, like we we Wednesday mornings were your meetings. So, like in commercial real estate, every company has a morning meeting, and it's always some morning you pick your day. Ours was Wednesday, so you're expected to be there at eight o'clock. And again, like there's a lot of boozing and entertaining and stuff like that, but it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. You could be up till four o'clock in the morning. You're you're you are expected to be there at eight o'clock. And if you're not, you get fined. So we would have a jar, we would literally have a jar of money where you needed to put 20 bucks. If you're even late, you owe 20 bucks into the at 801. Doesn't matter. 20 bucks, 20 bucks, and you're in. And then what we would do at the end of the year, we would take the jar and we'd take to the bar and we'd all go have a great time. Yeah. Right? And but like it was hard work. And you know, it started with my partner, Craig Smith, who was a very hardworking, very good, and and a guy that had a good balance, right? Like self-motivated, he knew how to work hard, he knew how to go out and have a good time, like he did a lot of things really, really well. And he was a good guy. Like, and and you know, like I understand we're on a podcast right now, but but I'm gonna say he could be a fucking difficult guy.

SPEAKER_07 38:14

Everything goes, let me just tell you, the Diaries family has heard it all. Right. So just uh the and and the reason that they love listening, and the reason I love doing it is because this is real. Yeah. Like, I mean, we hear stories about so anything you feel comfortable talking about, don't feel uncomfortable talking about because of us.

SPEAKER_05 38:37

Well, 100%. Well, and like and that was saying, and like I to this day I love him, but man, he he he would make he would make it difficult on me. He just would. It just because of the way that he was, and I love him to death for it, right? And but he was a pushing you, pushing you like a crowd. Oh, yeah, exactly. Exactly. And nothing that I ever did was ever good enough for him. It's just what it was.

SPEAKER_07 38:59

I think you told me.

SPEAKER_05 39:00

Absolutely, yeah. To this day, like you know, he said one nice thing to me, and I love him to death for it, right? And I'll remember to the day I'm dead. But he's like, well. What was the nice thing he said? Well, he so we had lunch not too long ago, and this was after And this is after how many years? Oh, Jesus, like this was like this is 2025, right? Yeah, so 2007. And you know what? And I think the nicest thing he ever said to me is, you know what, Mike? He says, I don't think you give yourself as much credit as you should in terms of your ability to be able to kind of do things. Like, I just don't think, and that was the nicest thing that he ever said. But he never, that was the only one. Yeah, the only one, yeah, but he was a great partner, and and so it's so the thing was is again, here's a guy that's worked very hard, he's very successful, extremely fair, and expects a lot from you. Yeah, right. And so that drew that drove the culture from uh a work perspective, right? In any business, you need a guy that does that, but he's not a jerk, he's not he's not a guy, he's not a jerk to you. Well, he's fair, he's fair, he's very fair.

SPEAKER_07 40:05

That's really all that a lot of people ask, right? You know, in a business, if there's somebody that's hard on you, as long as they're fair and you're good with it. And they're not a dick, or you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_05 40:16

Yep, and so he was always very fair. And so, you know, so fast forward, we you know, I started there in 2007, my career started going really, really well. And, you know, we we started doing a lot of business. And and my friend and partner, Jeff Thomas, those those were amazing years. We sat in the same office forever and ever. Like it was amazing. So we got bought, we got then bought by then Cushman and Wakefield, and that's kind of where I am now. And that whole kind of trajectory, and like, I mean, to be honest with you, I think that for me the biggest challenge was, you know, like coming from a country background, and you know, you have this certain set of values and and and things like that, which were great, which I think helped me, but I think what made it hard is like I would I didn't come from that culture, right? Like there's a culture, there's a business culture in Toronto, and it's different. It just is what it is, not good, not bad, it's just different, right? And and trying to kind of navigate that and feel comfortable in that, I could even say to this very day, I'm probably not a hundred percent comfortable in it, right? I feel like I've been successful in it, but even to this day, I'm not not fully comfortable in it.

SPEAKER_07 41:25

Well, I know you we've been friends for a long time, so I know a little bit more about you, obviously, than the Diaries family. Um, and I remember you telling me something. Now, this actually is me right. Okay, yeah, you become the um top grossing in Christian Wakefield.

SPEAKER_05 41:51

Yeah, in Christian Wakefield, yep. In what year? Uh so that would have been maybe four years ago. Yeah, like 2020. 2021, 2022, I forget.

SPEAKER_07 42:01

And you told me you went down to this prestigious awarding whatever. Yeah. And what did you wear? Oh, you told me that you were the country. You went down there. Yeah, everybody was in suits. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:21

And so I wear a baseball cap to that. I wore a baseball cap to that, and I went in my so I went, so we went golfing, and I didn't get out of my golfing gear and I wore my I wore my my my golf hat. I wore it, and I didn't give a shit. I was like, you know what? I'm comfortable in this. I'm this is what I'm going in. Everybody in satin suits and bullshit and everything else.

SPEAKER_07 42:41

Yeah, and country boy Mike. And the thing that really struck me was you said, you know what? I went down and in an industry where there's a lot of people that do things a certain way, and it's all about flash and this and that. And I just I the words that you said to me, and they they they really kind of hit home for me because I feel like I'm the same way. You said I went into an industry and I was myself the whole way through. Yeah, that's the truth. And and and that brings me to to a parallel between, you know, my industry, which is tourism and fishing lodges, and yeah, your industry, which was uh leasing commercial real estate, yeah. And every other business and industry that

Trust Is The Real Product

SPEAKER_07 43:40

ever lived. Yeah. And it and it boils down to, and and we kind of touched on this a little bit. Actually, my my batteries were low on the on the mic. So we had to sit down. I don't like talking about things because once you get on a roll, yeah, yeah, uh, it's like, okay, we need this for the podcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We talked about um uh what people how they feel comfortable spending their money. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and and the thing with with how you know bottom line is honesty is is the anchor to not only business to everything. Oh, I want to try I try to live my life by by the words of you know, speak the truth, yes, and the truth shall set you free. Yeah. As a kid, you know, there are a few situations when I was a young boy where I tried to lie myself out of things, yeah. And I realized very quickly that I don't have a good enough memory to make that shit work. Well, and the next best thing is to tell the truth.

SPEAKER_05 44:53

Well, I think what you're getting at is like, look, like you look at a business like what you ran, right? I think what people were looking for is again, what you you gotta recognize what you're selling, right? Like, don't like you know, when I talk to guys that get into the industry, like understand that you're you as much as we're selling real estate, we're not selling real estate. Yeah, you got to really figure out what you're what you're selling. Like you, you weren't selling the lodge, you weren't selling the the fishing next necessarily. What you were selling is you were selling an experience. And the thing was is part of that experience is authenticity. Yes. The authenticity from top to bottom, right? And part of that is the person that's operating, operating that lodge. And you don't want to feel like you got a sales guy, you want to feel like the person that you're dealing with is exactly the person that they are every day, right? Well, and I and I said to you, I said to you this was I'm standing in a bar, and I'll say the guy's name. It was uh Teddy Taggart. He's from CB and he's a good guy, like great guy, and I know him to this day. So Teddy Taggart, as a very young guy, comes up to me and says, like, what's the secret? What's the secret sauce? Like, honestly, like what are you doing? Like, what are you doing to kind of do the sales? And I told him, and which is still true, I said, you know, the one thing that I've seen of anybody that's super successful, and like every personality can make money here, but the one thing that super successful guys do that other guys aren't is they are just working harder than everybody else. At a certain point in their career, they're just working harder than everybody else. I remember Teddy looking at me, it's like, oh, so it's hard work. And he he rolled his eyes and walked away. And I was offended. I was offended, right? But no, but if I look back on it, even though as offended as I was, it was a fair comment because the the answer really was this was like, look, what you're selling is trust in this business. So let's authenticity. Well, again, authenticity, but trust is the same thing, right? Well, so the thing is what you're selling is trust. So, and it can never be false because the only way to gain trust is to be exact tell people exactly what you believe. And if they buy it, great. If they don't, it is what it is. You have to be honest in what you actually believe. And, you know, and so the thing was is is because, you know, like we can all stand, and what I try to use as the example is like I, you know, as a person that's had, you know, people come in and try to pitch them on doing work at their house, they can all do the work at your house. You pick the guy that you feel is the most honest and the most genuine. And so the thing is, is do the same when you because whether you're selling services at a home or whether you're selling a hundred million dollar property, it's all the same thing. Because I'll tell you, that person that's making the decision for you to go and sell that, sell or at least that $100 million property, they have their neck on the line, right? And they want to know that whatever you're telling them is true is the truth, is the truth, and that you genuinely believe that. Because if they get any inkling that that is not the case, they're not taking you. Well, because there's a lot of money on the line.

SPEAKER_06 48:02

Because they have their neck on the line, people have clients' necks on the line.

SPEAKER_07 48:06

Like when you have a business, what is authenticity? And I'll tell you, authenticity is just being who you are, be who you are. And and and also, you know, if you're a person who has your own best interest in mind, and you're you're at a fishing lodge, and listen, folks, I've been to a lot of fishing lodges. I've been to a lot of fishing lodges before I bought Shaudiere. I've been to a lot of fishing lodges since I sold Chaudiere, and I've been traveling with Fishing Canada. And you go into a lodge, and you know, I know the stories. You walk in, and if somebody's on a bad fishery, oh, you should have been here last week. It was on fire. Exactly. Oh my God, I can't believe it. You just missed it. Absolutely. And I haven't even been on the water yet. 100%. Right? And right then and there, you know, it's you. It's disingenuous. Yeah. It's disingenuous. You gotta and people can smell it, they can smell it. Honesty. Yeah. And integrity. 100%. That is, and and you know, I I went to the the shows down in like the Toronto Sportsman Show. I did a show in Novae, Michigan. Always the Toronto Sportsman shows. I didn't do a whole lot of them, but I always did the ones in Toronto. And I would be in my little booth, and I realized I am not a good salesman. I am not good at high pressure sales because I always told the truth. Um people would come up to me and they would say, Oh, you got a place on the Upper French River. If I come up there, am I gonna catch a 30-inch walleye? And I would say, maybe we have 30-inch walleye, but there is no guarantee that you're gonna catch 30-inch walleye. If you take a guide, you know, you could catch maybe 30 to 150 walleye in a day, but you know what? In an average week, with all of our guides and all of our people out fishing, we might catch one or two over 30, which is the truth. And then they they leave me because everybody is a trophy hunter, and then they go to the guy across the the aisle, and that guy over there, he starts talking to them, and I'm watching. And all of a sudden, he pulls out his bookings book and he's signing them up for a trip. And the guy across that hall, he signs them up, and I couldn't, I couldn't fathom how he was doing that because I was doing my very best to sell them on a trip. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And at the end of that show, he like sold four or five different groups of people that come to me first, went to him, I lost the sale, he got the sale, and I said, Listen, how do you do that? I I I'm not good at sales. And he's and I said, You pulled out your bookings book, and I was terrified to pull out my bookings book, and because you know, my bookings book in February when the show was going on was empty, and I didn't want to pull it out and say, Yeah, hey, listen, you want a book? Hey, I got all kinds of space, which I did. And uh he said, You don't show them your real bookings book. I got a bookings book, and he said, I have every month of the summer full except for one week. And in that one week, if they couldn't come that week and they said, No, no, I gotta, we're looking for the first week of July, but you're booked, he'd say, Wow, you know what? That's the shocks. They're great people, they come to the lodge for years. I can call them, they'll move to the open week. I get you in there, no problem, and sign them up. And it was all a farce, it was all baloney and smoke and mirrors, and he signed up those people.

SPEAKER_05 52:43

Well, I mean, because Steve, let's let's be honest. Because what what's gonna happen? And this is the hope. This is the hope, is they go there, and the reality is so they go there, and this guy has promised them the dream. Yeah, he's promised them the dream, he's promised them the dream. They're gonna they're gonna catch muskies as as big as the eye can see, and and all these things. And what happens, it doesn't happen. And what people leave there leaving is like this was not the experience that I was promised. No, you know, and and you know, and it might work this way, it might not work the way this way, but you think like, well, there was one guy that was honest with us, maybe we'll give him a try. Wow. And you know what, and coming from that, like I and you know, if it's similar, like in our business. I remember, and it was my and it was my good buddy Carstrothers, and I love Clarkie. And so Clark E had brought me into this meeting, and he got a meeting to come and list this. It was a mixed use development, and it was this great developer, and the guy he's he's an incredible guy, been super successful, super nice guy. And we're we're prepping for this. And I remember when we were prepping, and you know, if he asked me, you know, hey, look, if if we were to do something else, what would you do? I said I said to the team, I'm like, I'm going to be blatantly honest with him, and he's not going to like the answer. So, but we're gonna go in there, and and here's the thing win, lose, or draw, we're going to be honest, the whole you know, pitch. So we go in, we do the pitch. And at the very end of the pitch, he asked the question So, if you were me, is there something else that you would do? Is there something that I'm and I I I put my hand up and I said, look, look, in all honesty, because we're there to lease the office, that's what we specialize in. We're there to lease office space. And we're in the middle of COVID and the market is as bad as it has ever been. And I said, Look, if I if it was me and I'm in your shoes and you want my honest opinion, I wouldn't build offices at a while at all. Zero. I wouldn't build any of it. And I recognize that that's not good. We're here to pitch you. The way that we would make money is to lease your office space. But if you're asking my honest opinion, I wouldn't build any office here. And I remember I look at the guy, and he's a great guy, and there's he's not a bad guy. And he literally just he had this, he had this book in front of him, and he closed the book, and he's like, I appreciate you guys for coming and pitching, right? So, right then and there, we know we're not getting it. Yeah. But the hope is is this is not just this listing. The hope is that eventually there will be something else. And hopefully he asked us to come and pitch that. And he remembers, like, look, these this group of people came in and they were honest with me because I went out, I built that office, and I struggled for five years to lease it. And this group of people told me that that's how it was going to be. Because that's not what I wanted to hear at the time. Because I had all these investors and had all these things, and I wanted to build this building, and all I want to do is just I just want somebody to tell me that's gonna be okay. And these people didn't tell me it was okay, but it was honest. But at least it was honest. Wow, right? At least it was honest, and and like look, and you know, it and sometimes it doesn't come back to you, and it is what it is, and it's okay, but at least then, you know what? I get to go home, I get I get to wake up, brush my teeth, look myself in the mirror in the morning, and know that like, look, I was I want because I know that if I was in his shoes and I and it was my money on the line, that that's the answer that I want. Yeah, that's the answer I want. It might not be the one I want, no, but it's the answer that I want. I want the honest answer. And it's not the one you want to give. And it's not, and honestly, it's not the one you want to give. Because you know instantaneously. I knew instantaneously, and I told them when we were walking in, I'm like, if you ask me the wrong questions, we're not getting this. We're not getting this. Because we're not going to demonstrate the confidence that he wants to see in a team that he picks. But the reality is that we can't jeopardize our integrity by going in there and telling them something that we don't wholeheartedly agree.

SPEAKER_07 56:55

Well, and agree, you know what? We're talking about honesty and honest folks, this is the magic of Anthony Mancini, my producer, because Mike and I had a conversation for 20 minutes after this point. That was beautiful. It was an unbelievable uh end to the podcast, and our mics went dead. And uh I took a minute, I knew that it was giving us uh issues, uh, listened to it, and we lost the last 20 minutes of the podcast. This is the second going of the podcast, but it gave me an opportunity to go and mix a couple more drinks, and it gives Anthony the opportunity to look like a genius because he stitches it together beautifully,

Feedback That Makes You Better

SPEAKER_07 57:45

and we're gonna finish this podcast as good as it ever was. And you know, the the thing about um uh these businesses, uh, and it all comes back to uh being the you know what, there were a lot of times when I knew people weren't having a good time, right? And I understood that if I want these people to come back and support me and my business, I had to go to them with my hat in hand and say, Listen, I can see that you're not having a good time. I need you to help me be part of the unbelievable experience that you expect.

SPEAKER_03 58:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 58:40

But I don't know what you want. And people would come to the lodge, and although it's a fishing lodge, yeah, I was uh affiliated with um the RCI, which was a timeshare, and there were people coming from all over the world with different expectations and different ideas of what the Showtier Lodge is. And I would say, I need to understand, and this goes back to the to the dining room and taking people back to their cottage and sitting there with a bottle of wine with a notebook and saying, What is your experience? And what are the things that would make it better for you? Because you're not just helping me, you're not just helping you in your experience, you're helping everybody that's preceding you coming in, and I can make it better for them. Yeah, yeah. And you know what? I would sit there and I would take notes, and people would say, you know what? Listen, I like you, and they all would like me because there are very few people that own businesses like that that as an owner would take the time to sit down with them with a notebook and understand what the deficiencies are that they were feeling and write them down. Yep. You know, and that could be, you know, my garbage wasn't changed, and then the garbage was was like three days, and there were, you know, like it was garbage sitting in the bathroom for three days. Yeah. Or my pillow, or whatever it might. I don't have a place to hang my jacket, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:00:29

I think I think and I think the point is is you know what you can't be afraid to kind of ask your client or customer questions. No. And this is what this is a big thing. And and this actually happened to me last week. And we went in and we gave like this market update. We're we're doing this listing for uh this great company and they're good guys. And and I remember getting through it, and you know, we, you know, everything's over kind of pod or over like Microsoft Teams or Google Teams, whatever. And so, anyways, and I recognize I'm like, you know what, we we we didn't ask them a single question as to kind of like, are are we touching on the things that you need to know? Like, are we are are we addressing the things they because I mean, because in my business, usually there's a client even on the other side, meaning that we have a client, they have somebody that's invested money with them, and they're managing their money and they're investing into these buildings, and whether it's leasing or selling, they have somebody that they're going back to and saying, like, look, like this is kind of where the world is at. And call the guy, I said, you know what, I have to apologize. I sit on my soapbox every time we get on these market updates, and I never ask as many questions as I should. And I and I'm genuinely apologetic. So I said, like, look, like, did are we providing the information that you really need? And here's the thing I could kind of tell that there were some things that we maybe recommended that you didn't necessarily like. Like, just because we recommend it doesn't mean that that's the only way of doing things. So I, you know, like you have to ask a lot of questions. So whether you're running a lodge, no matter what your business, like, don't be afraid to go to your customer and and look for feedback and and and be prepared to get feedback that doesn't make you feel good. That doesn't make you feel good. And you know what? That's some of the best. If you get information and feedback that you don't like, guess what? That's the best feedback you're gonna get because that's the only way you're gonna grow. Because, you know, you you you know, like the thing is is you know, that old adogy that you win, you that you learn more from losing than winning. There's a reason, is because from losing, what it makes you feel is that you're not enough. Yeah. And then when you're winning all the time, you just feel like, oh, I'm just doing all the greatest things. But like when you ask questions and you get bad feedback, that means that you're not doing enough. And that is that's honestly, when you ask that question, that's what you're looking for. You're looking for that. You're not looking for the person to tell you all the things that you want to hear, you're looking for the things that you don't want to hear. And it's hard. And it doesn't, and your first reaction, I know me, like my first reaction is like, well, you know, you you kind of want to be mad or upset with that person, right? I know better than you know. But it's but you know what? Shut up. Shut up and listen. Listen. Because if you just take it for face value, they're giving, they're doing the things that you want them to do, which is because guess what? Giving the truth to some people, that's not an easy thing either. No, it's not easy, it's not easy on their heart, on their side either, right? So be appreciative for what you're getting. Be appreciative for the there's they're giving you some information to help you change your business. They're giving you some information to change your business. And that is such a precious thing. It's good, it's gonna help you, it's gonna make everything better. And it's for the next person that comes in, whether it be me selling real estate or or you running a lodge, that's going to help improve your business. Because no matter how much money you make, no matter how sexual successful you are, there is always ways to be better. To be better. There is. And you know what? Those are the things that you want, right?

SPEAKER_07 1:04:19

Wow. Those uh actually, you say you use the word want. For me, when I bought the lodge, I was a sheet metal mechanic. Yeah, I had to learn how to speak to staff, because in the sheet metal business, there, you know, you talk to people like you're fuck, like you're sailors, yeah. Your your language and profanity is different. And for me, I needed that. I didn't know. Yeah. And the honestly, the the the the thing that helped me become successful to the point that I become was listening to people and going out. And if somebody was upset, I genuinely wanted to know why. Yeah, absolutely what's going on. What's and and they would tell me. And to be quite frank, the people that were the hardest to please.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:21

And and those people are people that go through like the whole thing, the like different resorts and and different avenues of of hospitality and everything else. And they're the people that are that people genuinely on the hospitality side look as being pricks. Yeah, yeah. They're just, and a lot of people in the hospitality industry, they say, wow, there's 20% of people that you just can't keep happy. Yeah. Right. And in their view, that's what they believed. Right. But for me, I didn't believe that at all. Right. I had a chef who who I hired in between Phil and uh well, actually, that was Chef Dave who left to go to to um Nunavut to work and uh left me an alerts, but helped me uh find a chef. Yeah, this guy come in. Oh my God. He was like a pub chef. And I were uh and and and uh I was like, okay, with all the chefs and everything else, I would like, I would say, okay, what's your best um meal? Like, what can you do the best to provide to my guests? Because I didn't force chefs to make uh meals that were going to be good. I just took, I took those chefs and I said, what do you do best and provide it for my guests? Well, this guy, he said the one meal that he did, he did great was um um veal on a bun. Veal on a bun. And I said, Oh, okay. I'm thinking, like, when I was a sheet metal mechanic, we would go to uh to to to places in the city where they were like uh Italian bakeries and they would do veal on a bun. And my God, those unbelievable. Well, so this guy came in and he said, yo, yeah, veal on a bun. I do that while I said, okay. And he told me the whole gamut, but this veal on a bun was the one thing that I remember. And uh he made an order and he had a whole whack of veal patties, like you know, McCain frozen veal patties on a bun. And I I saw them come in. I'm like, hey, I think Dave, he was Dave too. We called him Crazy Dave. Yeah, I said, Dave, what's this uh McCain's veal on a bun? He's oh yeah, the veal. It's great, it's really good. And in his tenure of about a month, I had like three complaints a week about the food, right? Right, right. And I don't get like I don't get complaints about my food, yeah, because the food is something that I can control. Right, I can't control the weather, I can't control the fishing, but you can control the food. You're goddamn right. And if and if it's insignificant, if it's not good, that's on me. That's on me. So I went to Dave. I said, Dave, listen. And this was right at the end. He had already gotten a relationship with one of the the staff, the staff girl, the servers, and she was it he punched holes in the like the guy was crazy. That's why we called him Crazy Dave. It was ugly, it was not Chaudiere. But you know what? We did, we did our very best. Yep. All of the staff did our very best to hide that behind closed doors. Although Crazy Dave was not the chef that I wanted. And crazy, I had I had complaints. I went to Dave. I said, listen, Dave, we've had three complaints this week about our food. And he looked at me and he said, That's not bad. I said, What do you mean it's not bad? Well, we've had like 50 people through the the lodge, three complaints. That's not bad. I said, Dave, we don't get complaints ever. And I said to him, you know what? And that was that was the end of Crazy Dave. Well, and it was a, you know, I brought

Control The Food Control The Stay

SPEAKER_07 1:09:45

back Phil at the time, and then, you know, you provide all of the things you can control, you provide at top notch.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, there's two things to take away from that. You have to do the things that you can control, you have to do well. You have to do well. And I mean, that, you know, I in terms of like our business, like in terms of my business, you know, those are actually all the things that are our business are all controllable things. We don't control the market. Like we don't control a real estate market, we don't do all those things. But but here's what I will say is I think what you dealt with too is you know, there's always a team. We always have a team. We always have a team. And there is always going to be disputes, right? There's always going to be disputes, right? There's always going to be things that work and don't work. Like you, you're dealing with human beings. Are you kidding me? Are you expecting it for it to be perfect? It's never going to be perfect. Like I I have I have a team, and you know what? I love every single person on my team. I really do. Has has every day and everything ever been amazing? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. And there's things that I have messed up, there's things that Lauren has messed up, there's things that Alan has messed up, Tally. But the thing is, is like ultimately at the end of the day, like again, and we've talked about it on the podcast, is that if you have a great culture and you have a great team, you'll get through it. And here's the nice thing is that the goal is that recognizing that nothing is going to be perfect. And if you fucking expect people to be perfect behind the scenes, you are going to be disappointed. You're going to be disappointed and you're never going to get it. You are never going to get it. So the best thing that you can do is make sure that you've got really good people. Because if you got really like in terms of like who they are, you got really good people, you're going to get through it. It's fine. You're going to get through it. It's all good. And you have your debates. They're not arguments, they're debates. They're debates. Sometimes they get heated. They sometimes get heated. And you know, sometimes it's like, you know what? Like, look, I need you to do a little bit more here. I need to do a little bit more there, blah, blah, blah. But if you have, if you have the right people, you have nothing to worry about. And that's the thing. Like, and again, back to the crossover in terms of what I do and and every other business, including lodges, is make sure you're very picky about the people that you hire, right? Like you're I'm always of the attitude that I that I am I'm more willing to share a little bit more of the pie in order to get the right people, right? Because I think that business owners in general, and I think that this is an extremely common thing, and it happens in our business all the time, is you have all these great people and you're unwilling to make them feel like they're sharing in the win. You're unwilling to allow them to be able to do it. They're an hourly that they all of a sudden they become people that, you know, exactly. They feel like they're they're not part of the team. And like, look, you will be far more ahead to take less as an owner or a business operator and give more to your employees if they are the right people. Because your business will be better, the service delivery will be better, the experience will be delivered better, like everything about it will be better. Why? Because you weren't selfish. And, you know, and people, and that I would say, in terms of my business, is probably the number one thing as to why people don't stick around to work with people, because they become extremely greedy and extremely selfish. And so it's it, in my opinion, and and what and the people that feel it is the customers and your clients, because you have all this turnover that's in the back end, all this turnover, you're retraining, you're doing these things, and the people that feel it, like it's it makes it makes your business harder. Yeah, it makes your business harder, it makes it more time consuming.

Build Teams Pay Fairly

SPEAKER_05 1:13:45

And the people that ultimately feel it are your end client, right? Yeah, and customer, end client. So, you know, don't be greedy, right? Like, look, like this is not, it's uh I remember Craig Smith, my old business partner, and this might be a bad analogy, but but bear with me. He's sitting down with this guy, and he was this an ultra, you know, ultra, you know, uh, you know, ultra successful guy, and they're sitting down there, they're having martinis, they're in LA, and they're having martinis for lunch. And he's like, Craig, don't focus on the money. The money are the points on the scoreboard. Focus on the game. Focus on getting really good at the game, and the scoreboard will take care of itself, right? So, no matter what business that you're running, focus on the game, focus on getting really good at the game. Really good at the game. And you know what? The points will take care of itself, right? And to this day, like again, he never gave me a compliment. He talked about this guy in accolades, right? As though like that was the best piece of advice. And you know what? Uh Craig was right. Craig was right. That was probably the best piece of advice he ever got. And you know what? He lived it because I experienced it. He lived it because I and because I know he lived it because I experienced it, right? And because of that, Craig became a successful guy, right? And he he had the opportunity to keep good people because you know what? Maybe this is a conceded thing, I'll say. I felt like I was a good person, and I felt like I was a guy who deserved to be there. He kept me because of who he was and because of how he ran that business. Because if he didn't run that business, he wasn't who he was, I wouldn't have been there, right? And he got a bunch of people that were great people to come work for him, and we all made money, and we all made money, and that's how it has to feel at the end of the day. No matter what business that you run in, then like look, it you know, people have to be reasonable. The owner's gonna make more money, you know, like the investors are gonna make more money than people, and that's fine. You need, but you know, people need to feel like they're making money, that they're part of the team, and that they're respected, and things don't need to be perfect, they don't need to be perfect, but they need to be treated with respect and they need to feel that their voice is heard. And and if they're good people, they deserve to have their voices heard. So the thing is, is like when you're running a lodge or you're running a business, and people are like, hey, look, they put their hand up and they go, hey, this isn't this isn't being running right. You can't persecute that person for saying that. No, you have to stand back and look yourself in the mirror and say, hey, maybe they're right. And and they might not be right in their entirety, but you got you can't make them feel bad for putting their hand up.

SPEAKER_07 1:16:31

No. And you need to take that information, you need to analyze it from your perspective. And then if it is a good idea, you've got to say, you know what? That is a good idea. Exactly. We're gonna change our protocol because that is more efficient, that works better, and that is easier for you, and it's easier for me. Absolutely. But that doesn't mean, as an owner, when you look at it from your perspective, you can't say, you know what, that's a great idea, but it doesn't work here. And you have to explain to that person why, from your point of view, it doesn't work. Fair enough. And at that same point, you need to let that person come back and say, well, you know, you debate the idea, and at the end of the day, you find you, you, you find a solution, whether it's you don't change anything, whether it's you modify, or whether it's you change altogether and do it that way, you need to have that person involved in the conversation to the point where they understand why we do it this way. And there's so many things in my business.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:53

I never feel that they're that their point, because here's the thing. Like, I I can speak, I'm I'm thinking about I'm thinking about the uh one of my partners, Lauren Lucini is her name, and she's an unbelievable person. Yeah, right. I love Lauren, like just an unbelievable person. And she is the first person in my life that you know, in terms of my business, that she'd be the first person to tell me where I'm screwing up, right? But thank god for thank god for her, right? I I need somebody, like I don't do everything right. Yeah, you know what? I might be the person that's leading that team even to this point to do this thing. Like, I need somebody that's telling me when I make a mistake, and I'm totally good with that. And I'm totally good with that. And people that are running businesses have to get there because otherwise, what happens is you become stagnant, you become stagnant, right? Like, imagine owning a lot. Imagine owning a lot. Well, and you're so many people that are just never listen to somebody that's giving you an opinion that you don't like, and you're like, screw you, you like I don't like it.

SPEAKER_07 1:18:55

This is the way my dad did it. Uh, two generations, my grandfather did it, and this is the way I'm doing it. But you know what? Sometimes times have changed.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:06

A hundred percent. And so you have the choice that you can evolve or not, and those that evolve will go bust. I guarantee you, it's a matter of time. Those that don't evolve. The ones that don't evolve, that don't take the criticism and figure out how to fix you know, the things, whether it be changing or their errors, they're gonna be gone. They're going to be gone. And like and like the whole context of this conversation is it's not just about lodges, it's about all kinds of businesses and building teams and and learning how to kind of get better. That's what your goal is every single day. I know that that our goal is to get better, right? Yeah, there have been so many times in my career where I've had a client say the things to me that I'm like, that crushes me. It makes me feel so horrible that that is the experience that you had. But what uh inevitably happens from that is you make changes, you get better. Yeah, you solve for that, and you make sure that that will never be a complaint about the experience that when you deal with us, that's not an experience that you're going to feel. And that, like I said, whether you sell in real estate, whether you're running a lodge, it's all the same shit.

SPEAKER_07 1:20:28

And listen, this this brings me back again. You make that person feel like they're part of the team. And not only that, the one thing that I learned when you're running a lodge, I would, I would by by going to people's cottages and understanding that they weren't having the most outstanding time and that and and and listening to people and writing things down, uh, you know what, I would go down and there would be a list of 10 different things that that that they would talk. Because once you get a little bit of wine and and you're in a a real personable um conversation where you're where you're saying, listen, you are helping me. You are not just helping me, you're helping the people that are going to come to this lodge in the future, and you're helping yourself. You empower that person to make them feel like this is part of their legacy. And you hand over that legacy to those people, and all of a sudden, they want to come back. They want to come back because they're a part of it. And I would take those lists and I would make, I couldn't maybe make all 10 of those things happen. But you make some of them happen. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:50

And guess what happens, Steve? Back to culture. Guess what comes back to culture? Those people see those changes happening. They feel that they've made a change, they feel that they're part of the team. And guess what? You now just created a great culture. Yes, right? That is what it is about. Yeah, that is what it's about. Like creating like what and that's what I mean. I said what I said it earlier in the podcast. Like all these people that say they got a great culture,

Say Our Place Not My Place

SPEAKER_05 1:22:15

they just say it. Yeah, they just say it.

SPEAKER_07 1:22:18

Yeah, there's no work in it, they just say it. But there is say it and there is. And I was always interested in is and and even down to the verbiage. And folks, I've said this before. Some of the most important things that you can do within a business, I I don't even know how many businesses it applies to, but it applies to mine. And verbiage was very, very important to me, even to this day where I where I have this island, right? When you come up, I never say my. Right. No, it's our respect. Right. And at the lodge, I would always tell people, this is our place. Absolutely. Can you help me make our place better? Absolutely. And I uh and and I've said this uh uh a few times, but Chris Shock, he's uh a guy that has been coming, he's still to this day. Uh I just uh was out fishing with uh Matt O'Brien, uh uh one of the best muskie guides. Well, I I would I would um I can say that Matt is the OG. He is the OG muskie guide on the Upper French River and Lake Nipissing now. He was out with Katie Shock. And uh Chris, her dad, uh, and Sue, mom, they've been coming to Chaudiere long before I owned it for two weeks in the spring, two weeks in the fall. And uh it's been oh, I don't know, we did their 50th year. It's it's it's near 60 years, maybe more, that Chris has been coming here. Yep. And uh I remember Chris coming to the dock and I said, Welcome home. You know what? Our sp this our our place is not our place unless Chris Shock's on the dock. Right. And he said, This isn't my place, it's your place. And I said, No, Chris. And I almost took offense to it, but I it's not offense. It was it was simply I said, Chris, yeah, yes, I bought this place in 2009. Yep, it's now 2015, 16, 17, whatever. Like a moment in in his in his tenure. And I said, Chris, how is this my place? Agreed when you've been coming here for 45 years. Yep. I'm just the curator that pays the mortgage. Yep. It's not my place. Yeah, because who knows how long I'm gonna be here. It is your place, it is everybody's place that comes here, and it is my job to make sure that it still exists in a way that is an unbelievable experience for you.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:13

It inherently will never be just your place. No, because here's the thing you're the owner. Yeah, you have, let's just say, 10 employees there, it's their place too. Yeah, here's the thing they're looking at you to make sure that this place runs, and they're looking at their efforts to make sure this place runs well because you know what? That's their livelihood too. Yes. Like I know that I look at you and I carry this burden, and it's and it, and I've I it this is probably the heaviest thing that I've had to carry in my life is is like, you know, yeah, you know, I have my family, I have I have all these things in my life that you're you're you're you're wanting to get things for. But when you're running a business or you're running a team like me, is you have people that depend on you. Yeah, they depend on you because part of the your success is their success. And it's super important to them. Like when I run a team, it's not my team, it's our team. Yeah, it's our team. Like, like I said, it's Lauren, it's me, it's Alan, it's Tally, it's it's it's our team. Like we all benefit from this. And so that's why, like, again, like it's important to always make check yourself. You are not the most important person. You are one of the cogs in the wheel. You are one of the cogs in the wheel. And the reason why, as an owner, is that you know, at the time you took the most risk, right? You took the most risk. You got the mortgage, you did all those things and all those things. But the reality is, is there's all these people that are dependent upon the success of that idea, and is it important to their life too? Yeah, and and and and you know what, like people need to recognize that. People, business owners need to recognize that it's not just about you. You have people, there's families that are are dependent upon the success of this idea, right? And it doesn't matter whether you're starting a lodge, starting a like a snowblowing business, like starting a real estate business, you name it, whatever it is. If you have people that are there working with you, you make sure you respect them and you understand that, like, look, this is a team. This is a team, this is a team. And and without the team, this doesn't work.

SPEAKER_07 1:27:19

Yeah, none of this works. And for me, the team was extended to the people that were coming to the clients.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:27

That's totally right. Right. Because it's an experience. Like what you're selling, again, back to what you're selling, you're selling an experience, and they need and and it needs to feel authentic, it needs to feel great, it needs to feel good. And if you do all those things right, there can be a little bit mistakes in the middle, meaning like you know, maybe they'll catch maybe they don't catch fish, and maybe they don't, but everything else that you can control, and that's amazing. Guess what? They're coming back.

SPEAKER_07 1:27:53

Yeah, they're coming back because if you can make and and and my business was hospitality, I something experience and if you can if you can empower somebody to feel like they have a part of it that they're making the their experience better and better for people that are coming in front of them they will not go anywhere else and i i love them for that because that is the magic that is the magic that makes it so that people will come back because if people believe that you know there's you know there's the people that'll go and buy a cottage uh cottagers they buy their place they do whatever and and find out you know what it costs a lot of money to to have a place in a cottage and sometimes it's worth it yep like I I know I've been on both sides of the of the coin yep I have this beautiful place that I I give and extend to everybody that I can yep right but when you decide that you don't want a cottage and it's best that you take two weeks out of your year and all you have to do is go and and do the things you want to do and meals are included and cottage is looked after and beds are made every day and everything else but I as that person can go to the owner and say you know what this would be so much better for me and for that person to say you know what this is your place as much as mine. Yep and if that's a great idea for you I'm sure everybody else will appreciate it.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:44

Well and I and implement that well in all honesty like I think that there's some certain people have gotten to this spot in our conversation that go like look like they they can't kind of you know they're kind of oh this is way too touchy feely for me right there's certain people that have gotten to this part of the conversation ah this is way too touchy feely but you need to understand is like the nuts and bolts the nuts and bolts are the easy part that is the the easiest part of running any

Soft Skills Beat Nuts And Bolts

SPEAKER_05 1:30:10

business is the nuts and bolts of it. Yeah and I can I can tell that that is my business to a T.

SPEAKER_07 1:30:16

And and that and nuts and bolts means just the structure of the business the day to day which everybody learns at school.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:27

The other you know the ability to like the soft parts of it are the toughest parts those are the toughest parts of a business. And to be fair you look at any corporation they are the the the soft parts are the things that they are the worst at the worst at the the actual people aspects of it and I say that in a very blanket but I I think it's I think it's honest. Right? And and you know so like the great thing about like the people that are listening to your podcast that are like look we want to think about running these businesses and we want to do that the it's it's two things. It really is two things. There is the nuts and bolts of the day to day in terms of you know like how do you service people how do you get you know how many people do you get into how do you do the accounting how do you do all those things the mechanical part the mechanical part of it is one aspect that's 50% of the job. The other 50% of the job is all the soft things that and in my mind those are the hardest things. But in terms of providing those are the hardest they're the they they're the most important right and and you know what and again like I would I would go as far as to say like pick your business pick your business I guarantee you the soft items at the end of the day are the things that keep people coming back. They really are yeah because they're the soft items they're hard they're the the they're the way of service delivery listen they're the they're they're how people feel when they come into your shop they're the way that they come how they feel when they deal with you they're the way that they feel when they deal with me. And you know like those are things that you need to focus on as much as the nuts and bolts of your business.

SPEAKER_07 1:32:16

I would say more and and and folks if you think that it's easy okay when you buy a fishing lodge and you really have no freaking idea how to run a fishing lodge you are a sheet metal mechanic and you walk into a dining room with people sitting there having dinner and you know that people are not having a great time it's just sort of kind of mediocre it is so easy to look at those people say hey how you doing everything good and they say yeah not bad and you move on and you go and stick your your head in the fucking sand like an ostrich. Agreed. It is so easy to do that. Yes it is easy to do that I'll tell you what is not easy to do is to say to yourself I am not doing a very good job because they're telling me in the way that they're acting and I can feel and that's the key yep people can like I mean I don't know about all of you folks out there listening but I could feel when people weren't having a good time and the courage you need to to to to put together to go out instead of going and sticking your head in the sand and hiding in the office and just taking people's money and saying oh it'll be fine to go and face those people and say listen I can feel and tell that this isn't exactly what you want yeah what help me to help you figure out what you want that takes courage. Yeah yeah and that is what made me successful I would and and anybody out there that thinks that it's easy to say you know what in your own mind say yeah no you know what I'm doing a pretty freaking shit job here because I can see that not everybody is having a good time even to to to understand that is difficult. Yeah and then to face it is difficult. And and that right there is the most important part of any business whether it's cutting trees down or or or or serving people in a restaurant or across the board. Yep you need to ask those people and be prepared to find out what you're not doing right. Yeah all the things that you don't want to hear. And if you can do that you will be successful. And that's I agree with that's what I did and to this day that's still what I do. You know I don't I don't pretend to be successful. I don't pretend to be anything other than a person who tries to be kind and look at people in a way that if you're paying me good money to make sure and and you want an experience by God I better do my research to find out what you're expecting.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:39

100% well like I mean if I was encapsulating our our conversation right now it's like look you know you got those people ask you what the secret sauce is there's no secret. No there's no secret. Well there is a secret. Well but this is it. Well but there's no there's no real secret it is look you need to be prepared to work hard and what work work hard means number one hard work. Like look working hard isn't just about the time you put in the office it means like you're missing your kids' hockey games. Unfortunately you know you you can't spend as much time with the with your friends because guess what you're at work because you're trying to grind it out to try and make it happen. You're grinding it out without your wife you're putting her under an immense amount of stress. 100% and you know what and and and making sure you get great people and and and you make sure that you you try and put your ego aside by example things work and you got to lead by example. At the end of the day you got to do all the things that nobody else is prepared to do. I was in the shit tanks 100% and you got to be prepared to do all the things that you want to do. And if you are prepared to do all those things then you know what go buy a lodge go start a business go be a go drive not even being prepared to do that stuff.

SPEAKER_07 1:36:53

It is making sure that you do right do that stuff.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:58

Yeah exactly and and and and so like again you know we've talked about it many times it on this in this discussion is it doesn't matter whether you're doing what I'm doing or what you did the crossovers are many. The crossovers are many right and the crossovers and all those things um you know ultimately at the end of the day is look I'm gonna tell you it's hard and it sucks it's hard yeah and and and it sucks it sucks there's a reason why people aren't successful and it's because ultimately at the end of the day they can't endure all the things that it takes to be successful

The Real Cost Of Hard Work

SPEAKER_05 1:37:50

and it's hard it's hard.

SPEAKER_07 1:37:52

Buddy I remember nights and I don't think I've ever shared this with the Diaries family uh there were nights when I and when I bought the lodge I was 33 we had two boys Mikey and Rayburn and we had Maddie on the way Melissa was pregnant and um she would phone me uh at at whenever the kids whenever one baby was crying and this and that I was four hours away and you know the Flintstones you remember how Betty would phone Barney and it would be like on the phone but you'd never for you'd never really hear what was saying and Melissa would be having a hard night one of the kids were up and crying and this and that and I would I remember I would put the phone to my ear and there were things that I didn't tell her like I'm not sure I can make payroll or I'm you know what I I don't know and and I had everything on the line I had everything including a hundred thousand dollars of my mom's and dad's farm I had my house on the line I had everything on the line and she would phone me at night and it would be she would be crying over things that were very very relevant to her she was up the kids weren't sleeping the the the the the the the you know it was just and and I would have to take the phone and put it to my ear and hear her crying and yelling at me and my mind was so full that I would have to say I'm four hours away baby girl what am I gonna how can I help you and then I would just take the phone and I would put it away from my head for a minute I would bring the phone back and I would put it to my ear and I would say but I'm four hours away I can't help you I'm sorry I put the phone away from my head and I didn't hear any of it because I couldn't and those are the sacrifices that people make hundred percent to be successful. Try to make it work.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:09

Yes and that's what it is and I think that that like I encapsulate that in hard work that's what I do that is hard work it's hard work.

SPEAKER_07 1:40:17

It's difficult. There's nothing more difficult on the planet to listen to your wife who's at home and has baby kids and they're crying and she can't sleep and there's nobody to help her. And you know what I'm sitting four hours away and I have a whole gamut of things that I have to deal with because I've got a group coming in tomorrow and I have to make sure that it's perfect and there's guides and there's this and there's that and I got to get up at five o'clock in the morning to make sure the chefs are awake and cooking dinner or breakfast. And I have to then the next day I have to entertain and I'm playing guitar and singing and and and and looking after these people until two o'clock in the morning and then going to bed and I'm getting up at five o'clock the next day and then you know your wife hears that you're playing guitar and you're singing and everything else and and I now all of a sudden I'm having this wonderful time. Yeah yeah yeah but really it's not a wonderful time it is what it's it's what you got to do what you got to be successful.

SPEAKER_05 1:41:30

And and it and and and but like look Stever at the end of the day the reason why you do it is because you got your goals and you got your dream. And that's what and and you know what it is what it is. And you know what here's here's the thing I wouldn't change it for a thing. No I wouldn't change it for a thing. Yeah I wouldn't change it for a thing. No you know what there's certainly things that I wish that could have been different but you don't change it because like look you got to where you were running you saw that light at the end of the tunnel I had a role in a dream. And you got to that light and you know what and and you never thought you were going to get there.

SPEAKER_07 1:42:08

You never thought that you were gonna get there no that's the difference I always knew oh I did there was one thing that I that I knew and I I knew I was either going to to end this this story as a millionaire or I knew that I was going to be a person that that lost everything and the only thing that kept me going with that idea was I was young. I was 33. I thought you know what if I lose everything here I still have time to recover and I'm pretty sure that that my wife will will stand by me and that I knew I knew I was gonna be a millionaire someday and I come from nothing and I'll tell you what when I sold that business I put a million bucks in the bank and and and and when I sold that business I believed that I was set yeah yeah in 2019. But you know what I'm not gonna get political but folks vote conservative well Stever I appreciate you having me on this podcast.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:25

Yes I'm gonna tell you something I am I like look I'm super proud of you I'm proud that you're doing this I hope that people take this podcast for exactly what it is which is like look here's a guy trying to go out and say like look I've been down this road and I want you to understand what it's like to go down this road and I want to make sure that you get to avoid all the bumps on that road that I had to endure and hopefully you know what if you listen to this that you don't have to endure it but the other thing is is like look you know what take some chances right this is the other thing you need to take from Steve take some chances go after your dream and maybe not like what I did but it's gonna and you know what there's nothing easy about it but let me tell you it's a good thing and uh appreciate uh I appreciate you Steve thank you very much brother I really appreciate it and folks listen um uh the there's a lot of the you know the risks that I took with with everything and and I'm not saying that you should but one thing I will say if you believe and you you you refuse to give up your belief you will be successful if if you go into something and you truly believe that that is what you want to do and you do not give up and refuse to take no for an answer there is nothing you can't do.

SPEAKER_07 1:45:03

And and that that's the God's honest truth. And and sometimes it's a it's a valley and you think oh my god I can't do this but if you refuse to to give in to whatever it is and you come up with solutions and there is always a solution you will not fail and that is the key to business. Thank you Mike for I really appreciate having me thank you I enjoyed this conversation I appreciate I appreciate your support right from the beginning this is kind of a full circle moment with the two of us right and um folks I uh I really really appreciate you getting to this point and listening through all of this conversation and um it it

Closing Thoughts And How To Reach Us

SPEAKER_07 1:45:55

truly is something that I love bringing to you. I love bringing to you great people and people that are significant in my life um and uh and and I just hope that you you enjoy the conversations and listen you know how to get a hold of me uh my email is Steve N or sorry steve dot n at fishingcanada.com reach out let me know what you think let me know give me ideas hey listen if you're a person out there that has a similar story or a great story in any way reach out to me let me know we'll get you on and uh tell your story because this like in this podcast this is not my podcast this is our podcast so reach out let me know because we'll tell your story and I believe that it's a great story anyway folks head on over to fishing canada.com uh there's all kinds of free giveaways throw your name in the uh in the draws it is fantastic uh I thank the producers uh deany uh deany mancini the the the best uh dino on the planet dean taylor and uh I also thank uh Anthony Mancini Anthony you are a you are a gem you are what makes this podcast flow I appreciate it and to Angelo Viola and all of those guys at Fish in Canada thank you I appreciate the soapbox that I stand on and I speak to all of you on and uh night night next and you have a good sleep buddy we'll talk to you soon and thus brings us to the conclusion of another episode of Diaries of a Lodge Owner Stories of the North I'm a good old boy never meaning no harm I'll be the whole you ever saw been reeling in the hog since the day I was born bending my rug stretching my line some baby of mine on a lodge and I'd be fine I'll be making my way the only way I know how working hard and sharing the north with all of my plows while I'm a good old boy I buy the large and live my dream and now I'm here talking about how life can be as good as it seems yeah as the world gets louder and louder the lessons of our natural world become harder and harder to hear but they are still available to those who know where to listen I'm Jerry Oulette and I was honored to serve as Ontario's Minister of Natural Resources.

Podcast Network Previews

SPEAKER_01 1:49:13

However my journey into the woods didn't come from politics rather it came from my time in the bush and a mushroom in 2015 I was introduced to the birch hungry fungus known as Chaga a tree conch with centuries of medicinal use by indigenous peoples all over the globe. After nearly a decade of harvest use testimonials and research my skepticism has faded to obsession and I now spend my life dedicated to improving the lives of others through natural means. But that's not what the show's about my pursuit of the strange mushroom and my passion for the outdoors has brought me to the places and around the people that are shaped by our natural world. On Outdoor Journal Radio's Under the Canopy podcast I'm going to take you along with me to see the places, meet the people that will help you find your outdoor passion and help you live a life close to nature and under the canopy find under the canopy now on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever else you get your podcasts hi everybody I'm Angelo Viola and I'm Pete Bowman.

SPEAKER_04 1:50:27

Now you might know us as the hosts of Canada's favorite fishing show but now we're hosting a podcast. That's right every Thursday Ang and I will be right here in your ears bringing you a brand new episode of Outdoor Journal Radio. Hmm now what are we going to talk about for two hours every week?

SPEAKER_00 1:50:43

Well you know there's gonna be a lot of fishing I knew exactly where those fish were going to be and how to god them and they were easy to god yeah but it's not just a fishing show.

SPEAKER_04 1:50:52

We're going to be talking to people from all facets of the outdoors from athletes all the other guys would go golfing meeting guards and turns and all Iraq would go fishing.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:03

The scientists now that we're looking foresting and things it's the perfect transmission environment to live with people to if any game isn't cooked properly for you will taste it.

SPEAKER_04 1:51:16

And whoever else will pick up the phone. Wherever you are Outdoor Journal Radio seeks to answer the questions and tell the stories of all those who enjoy feeding outside find us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast