Habs Champ GARY LEEMAN gives one of the most HONEST interviews ever - CTC LIVE

NHL Legend Gary Leeman joins Andrew Raycroft, James Cybulski, Mike Commodore and Matthew Barnaby to take us inside his career. From being a cornerstone of the "Hound Line" in Toronto to winning the last Stanley Cup for a Canadian team with the 1993 Montreal Canadiens, Gary has seen it all.

In this episode, Gary doesn't hold back on:

The 1993 Montreal Canadiens: What it was really like inside the room during that historic Cup run and why he believes Canada is in such a long drought.

The Harold Ballard Era: Wild, never-before-heard stories about playing for one of the most controversial owners in sports history.

The "Hockey Factory": A deep dive into the brutal discipline and legendary talent produced at Notre Dame.

Maple Leafs Memories: Reflecting on his 50-goal season and the brotherhood of the 80s Leafs.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

We didn't know that he was maybe superstitious or whatever, but he ha he had to be the first guy on the plane. Had to be. Had to be, yeah. So he's the first guy on the plane, but he had to make a pit stop before. So we're we're standing there waiting to get on the the plane in front of the steps and he's having a squirt on the front tire.

SPEAKER_04 0:46

Well played. I am James Tabalski, Uncle Barney, Matthew Barnaby back in the house. You talk about a guy who's played in all the Canadian markets here, really kind of went coast to coast. Former Vancouver Canuck, former Calgary Flame, former Toronto Maple Leaf, and former Montreal Canadian and Stanley Cup winner, Gary Lehman in the house. Gary Hawaii, man. Thank you for coming here. Nice to be here, Gary. A team that was kind of perceived as they have no business in the butt team to win a Stanley Cup on Canadian soil, you were part of. Please, when is that curse going to end? Who would have thought that you would have been the last Canadian squad to win it?

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Not us. Not us. We uh I mean it was a great uh it was a great experience. And um, you know, we've been carrying that torch for so long. It's we want to pass it off. You know, I think we all Canadian fans, they uh they're suffering, you know. So uh we need uh we need some uh some winners here and uh well we don't know if we're ever gonna get it here. 0.000 But I'm not surprised that Montreal has uh you know the the last standing team this year. They've uh they've built it properly and um you know I I just I I feel like there's a lot of similarities, you know. Uh we kind of grew together. I I got there the year that we won. So I was traded uh there in January, late January. And uh so I didn't really um I didn't really feel like the the team didn't have a chance. You know, I I wasn't really sure how good that team was. I actually had a choice um when I was leaving Calgary, because I had to fire my agent to get out of Calgary. Why? Well, because I was getting the bone from the coach who not not somewhere else. So you know those situations, right? Uh so I had played, I had played in the World Juniors for Dave King. So um, you know, and I was aware of him as a coach and whatnot. And it was like Mr. Hockey Canada through the 80s, he was like, Mr. Hockey Canada for sure. Mr. uh, you know, Mr. Clean in front of the camera and all that stuff. But uh things started to change. Uh and and I let Ricky, my my first agent, Rick Kern, know when they hired Dave in in the summertime that we might have a problem. I turned him down twice for the world championships. And I knew there could be a problem. They don't like that shit. Yeah. So um and I had played like shit the the year before there, and uh but I had a great camp the next year. I I was ready and and uh things were going well. And then it started to happen. And once that started, I got in front of it and I said, Rick, here here here it's it's coming now, right? So I'd play well and then not play the next game. Uh we'd lose, I'd get back in, contribute, you know. Anyhow, it went on too long.

SPEAKER_04 4:17

And I said, But you were in and out of the lineup essentially.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

Uh well yeah, but I wasn't at the beginning. Like I was playing. You're playing well, so um so I said, Rick, listen, um, I can't do this too long. So something's gonna have to happen. He talked to Al Coates, Al McNeil, uh really good hockey guys, great guys. Yeah, wonderful guys. And they said, look, we want this trade to work. And I said, Well, it's not gonna work if I'm not in the lineup, right? So I had um I had become closer with Don Meehan um because he wanted ironically, he wanted to get involved with the racehorses. And so I set him up with uh Sue Leslie, uh a good trainer, and Rob Landry, a good jockey, and all that stuff. And but really good people that, you know, in this in that industry, you gotta be really careful who you're yeah, we learned that lesson yesterday.

SPEAKER_04 5:19

They're all going to the glue factory after. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:21

Yeah, it's it's easy to be a historian in that game, isn't it? I looked at it after, I said, well, why wouldn't I like this? Top jockey, you know, whatever. So um anyhow, um So you get connected with the unmin. Yeah, so so we bought a couple horses together. So, you know, I was friendly with them, and and he brought some of the guys and Cujo and and uh Hatcher Brothers and La Fontaine and these guys. So we were having fun, you know, spending a little bit of money, but you know, you're you're not held you it's not you with you know the big expenses. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:01

And those horses are little censorship. You know, yeah. Those things eat.

SPEAKER_00 6:08

Oh, look at the size of you, please. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

Shitty ones do too. There you go. So uh anyhow, um I said to uh Donnie, I said, listen, I I got I'm having a problem here, and uh what do you you know, what do you suggest? This was actually after I I said to Rick, look, uh you you gotta get me out of here. And I I gave him a deadline. I I said, we're in New York in two weeks. Um let's uh let's meet after the game and have some good news for me, right? So we we met and uh I said, what's going on? He says, they won't trade you. I said, Rick, yeah, I gotta let you go. And it was hard because I had him 10 years. So I was pretty confident, and so was Don, that you know, he was gonna Anyhow. So I I called Don the next day and I said, Don, uh I made the move. He says, Okay, sit tight. He called me the next day and he says, Where do you want to go? Minnesota, Chicago, Montreal, or Philadelphia?

SPEAKER_04 7:07

Yeah, those four options.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

Yeah, those four options. Those are all good markets. The next day. Yeah, yeah. So um I said Chicago right away, because I love playing in Chicago. Just, you know, make sure that's Back to the Norris. Back to the Norris there. Yeah. It's a team I probably knew the the best too, and I I liked the way they played and all that stuff. They had some good players.

SPEAKER_04 7:30

Well, this is also at the same time they had just gone to the cup final, I think, the year prior to, right? Around that time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Against Pittsburgh, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:35

Yeah. Yeah. Well, Donnie said to me, listen, he says, I'm like this with Serge Savard, who was our GM. He says, I represent Jacques Demur as our coach, and of those four teams, they have the best chance of winning the cup this year. And as soon as he said that, I knew I was going to pick Montreal, and I thought, holy shit, I'm from Toronto. I gotta tell my family. So I'll call you back. So I called him I called him back. I called him back, and it was just it was um just sort of meant to be like the difference, I I felt it right away. You were just totally respected by the organization. And you you can s you can see how they're playing now and and how you feel like the organization's really helping those players. And that's what you dream of. You know? So we got there and or when I got there it was um I I had to go see Sarah Savard uh right away. So you get to the the rink and yeah, he's in his office upstairs, and it's funny because it was almost like walking into the dark. There was but there was uh there was one bulb over his desk, and he's about 300 pounds. It was awesome.

SPEAKER_04 8:55

In the forum?

SPEAKER_01 8:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah. In the office. So, and then the rest is history.

SPEAKER_03 9:00

That that that team that team won ten overtime games, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:04

Because you guys knocked us out in four straight in Buffalo, three in overtime. Every game was four to three.

SPEAKER_04 9:10

Every game was over.

SPEAKER_03 9:11

Every game was four to three.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

Yeah. Yeah, crazy. It was crazy. It was, yeah, it was just, you know, one of those things where just don't talk to Patrick, you know, don't wake him up. But we had even I carry it with me now. We he he gave us this little we're making a team commitment, so it was a card that you had to have with you just just to keep you focused so you get fined. Patrick did? Yeah. Okay. It was, you know, it was smart.

SPEAKER_04 9:36

Yeah. And uh yeah, so that was his call to do that?

SPEAKER_01 9:41

Yeah. So the reason I like uh Jacques Demur so much is he delegated, he let the veterans run the room, and so that was that was a great thing to do. Um you know, drag the young guys into it. And it was my tenth year in the league, and I was watching Guy Carbonot, who had won it before, like uh everything he did. And that's what teams need to do. They need to, you know, let their the guys that have done it before. I'm sure he learned from Bob Gainey, who learned from Jacques Lemaire, and so on.

SPEAKER_04 10:20

That was a that team you look at, Gary. I I think a lot a lot of times, and I think how revisionist history sometimes it's like, oh man, Patrick Raw carried this, you know, b band of marauders and misfits and outcasts, and like, you know, that team had no business. But you look at we talk a lot about character and leadership in different teams that have gone through some dumpster fires over the last few years. There was like low-key, a really grew good, strong group of veterans and leaders in that group, like Brian Bellows and uh Mike Keene, who I think guys loved playing with.

SPEAKER_02 10:58

I've seen some of the things that I've got to do.

SPEAKER_04 11:01

But a lot of those, like a lot of key veterans, like you know, you know, talk about Dan Foos, Kirk Muller, I think, who's obviously been a coach for several years. Like there was a strong lead, like I think we sometimes overlook like the character in that room seemed to be pretty strong. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

Yeah. It was. It was great. There was no never an issue between you know French English stuff. It was just it was uh just brothers. There was no you know, clicks like that. And uh that's when you run into problems. Well, you talked about the celebration with the cobbler like two-week. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_02 11:35

That must have been unbelievable. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03 11:38

Yeah, start off. Start off the dream. Start off at that great buffet place, chaperie. Bring that in there. Almost got a spit out of here. That's where it ended. Start there and in there.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

Yeah. Oh, yeah. That was a great bunch. And sorry, I just no, you're good.

SPEAKER_02 11:59

No, no, no. Well, I I I was gonna you're from Toronto, right? Yeah. And then you put you played for the Pats, though. So I was gonna ask you about that, but I think I have an idea. So I was I texted a guy this morning that was part of the hound line back here, Russ Courtnall. So I said, I'm like, hey, I'm like, we're talking to Gary today. You know, anything I should ask or whatever. And Russ responded, he goes, sweet, screaming lehman, best athlete I'd ever played with. Which I'm assuming ND's Notre Dame, Wilcox? Notre Dame. Yeah. He played soccer, provincial MVP. The football team asked him to come out and kick. He won Rookie of the Year and MVP. Uh let's see, what else there? Wow. And athlete. One summer out there, or maybe it was here. That should have been my ages. Drafted as a D, converted to a forward, play on my line with Wendell, scored 50, magician with the puck, and he could scrap.

SPEAKER_01 12:56

And no social life.

SPEAKER_02 13:00

How did you enjoy it? Uh my dad went to Notre Dame, so I'd like to. Oh no, yeah. Yeah, so I've a little bit more. I never did, but my dad did. How did you get out there? Because I'm assuming you're from here and you grew up out east, right? I grew up here. You grew up here, yeah. I grew up. Yes, born in the world.

SPEAKER_01 13:13

Born in East York. I moved to North York in Scarborough, played for Wexford growing up. Okay. And uh uh we had some good teams. We were winning the Ontario Championship every second year type thing. And um uh what uh what happened was uh we we had won the the it was called the Loblaws Cup. So it was the Banner. Yeah, Major Banner. Thank you, yeah. Yeah, and uh the Globe Mail.

SPEAKER_03 13:44

We're not alone anymore.

SPEAKER_01 13:46

And uh the Globe and Mail had a Player of the Month award for the MTHL was back then. So they selected me for the month of March, I believe it was. And so it's a national paper, right? And uh so they had my mug and and uh a little couple of couple of paragraphs on you know what I wanted to do and continue my schooling and all that stuff, right? Well, Martin Kenny was the president of Notre Dame. And he picked the paper up, he read my name, and he called uh what do you call what what it what what was it back then? You guys might not know, but he had to call to get somebody's number, you could call the operator. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:26

It's like 411. Like it was like a 411 sort of information that I could call the operator.

SPEAKER_01 14:34

And he called. I was away in a soccer tournament at the time. Uh, because it was this happened uh a few months later. And I came home from a tournament in Cincinnati, and my dad said, Martin Kenny called from Notre Dame, and he wants you to go play hockey there. And I'm like, really? Like, where is it? Right. I was gonna say, Wilcox, Saskatchewan. Yeah. He said, Oh yeah. You guys ever been to Notre Dame? No. No, I've heard stories of. One green elevator. Oh yeah. So I I'm thinking to myself, like I'm 15. I I'm, you know, not the brightest ball, but I'm thinking, I'm I'm leaving the biggest city in Toronto with the most exposure. We just won the Ontario Championship. I'm going to a town of 170 people. Do you like my parents? I'm thinking my parents don't like me anymore. So your parents wanted you to too.

SPEAKER_04 15:24

They like the idea of you going.

SPEAKER_01 15:25

Well, yes and no. Yeah, I think my dad did. Okay. More so. And my mom always let me make my choice, you know? And uh she she made it make sense, make sense. She said, well, if you don't like it, just come back. And I'm like, oh. Okay. I get there and there's Gordy Kluzak, James Patrick, Brian Kern, Lyndon Byers, Dale Durkas, who you guys should know about. Yeah, like who everybody should know of. He was the best player I've ever played with, that never made it to the show. He was five foot five, 130 pounds, soaking wet. And uh he set junior records and stuff. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:05

Were the rules as crazy, like the discipline there, as much as we heard like using like stand with your nose up against a tree if you miss curfew, or like I've heard like crazy stories. I just didn't I don't know much about it.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

Yeah, they they let the they let the uh inmates run the asylum there. Like the old old boy, you were an old boy or a new boy. And so the old boys ran the dorms, right? So if anybody got caught, I I remember this poor guy got caught stealing somebody's calendar or something. And they take him to every room and the old boy got to drill them.

SPEAKER_02 16:40

Oh never stole a calendar again.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

By the time he came, so they were in the bigger dorm. When he came to our dorm, his chest was already purple.

SPEAKER_04 16:53

How many dorms were there?

SPEAKER_01 16:54

There were two. I think there were 300 or 260 students or something like that. That's a lot of sixty of them were and then there was the girls' dorm. It's poor girls. Yeah, it was so uh yeah, it was a it was a great place. Yeah, you hear the stories that are mostly true, and uh lots of great players and coaches like right now, uh Rod Brindamore, Barry Trotz, and John Cooper. Really? All guys. Three of the very best in the last couple decades.

SPEAKER_02 17:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

You just you learn so much about hockey uh when you're when you're there. And I don't think Coop made it like played on a I think he played on maybe the third team or something like that. Okay. Um but here he is. Like what a what a guy to play for. But there's clearly a foundation to play for.

SPEAKER_04 17:50

Yeah, there's clearly a foundation that you were instilled at Notre Dame in terms of like you learn those three names. Like Rod Brendamore has obviously established himself as one of the best coaches in hockey right now. John Cooper obviously is the old guard now within the league, and Barry Trotz obviously has had a tremendous track record.

SPEAKER_02 18:04

So you learned, from what I've heard, you learn discipline there. My dad went there and he went there because he stole a shotgun out of the back of some guy's truck. His dad was not impressed. It's great to Notre Dame.

SPEAKER_04 18:16

Yes we know who stole the calendar now, Clark.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

Those were that that's what it was. You were basically a hockey player or or you know, somebody that's going down the wrong path, and they let um, you know, the I guess all the peer pressure straighten the kids out. And it seemed to work.

SPEAKER_03 18:35

I I I had a kid, I played junior in Quebec City, and we got a kid like October, end of October. He went to Notre Dame, he lasted two weeks. Like two weeks. He's like, I can't. Quebec City to Saskatchewan, and then the rules. He literally, he told me he literally was late by two minutes, and for two hours he had to stand outside with his nose up against a tree. Couldn't move. Someone just sit there like reading the paper, just watching it, and he just had to have his nose. That's mad. I was like, yeah, I wouldn't last either.

SPEAKER_01 19:10

They used to make uh guys sweep Main Street.

SPEAKER_00 19:16

Come on. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

We had a we had a few teammates that were out there doing it. Interesting. But you know, I would have never learned um a lot of stuff had I stayed in Toronto, even though I thought, you know, the exposure's great. They were already on your tail, like when you're winning, you know, at 15 years old. They you're on the radar. You're on the radar, yeah. So um yeah, we we we got two hours of ice time every day on an Olympic size rink and great coaching with uh my first year was uh Barry McKenzie, second year was Terry O'Malley. These guys were when they played for uh Team Canada um under uh Father Bauer. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 20:02

So the Father Bauer. Yeah, yeah. I have a great Irish priest joke after the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

So Perr, the the priest who started the school, he was quite the character, apparently. Now he had passed a couple years before I went there, but all the all the guys said he used to smoke and his ashes would get on his whatever you call Grobe. He'd drink scotch all day. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:30

It's kind of priest that you really want to live through. But he was salvation.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

He knew like the royal family, like he knew all the all the uh the people that could help the school because they had to they started it uh in the 30s and they had 15 they called them Argonauts. They were I think they were wayward kids. Yeah. And uh from Regina. And uh that that was and that was during the Depression and all that stuff, right? Yeah. So they started that school and yeah, they've uh they uh they they turned it into a a really like a hockey factory.

SPEAKER_02 21:11

Yeah, it was a powerhouse. We used to play. I grew up outside of Edmonton and we played in Rotterdam, like you know, peewee, whatever, peewees and midgets and stuff, bantams and oh always strong? Oh, yeah, real strong. Yeah, they'd come in. We have pretty good teams too. Uh God, there was I mean the I never played against them there, but like Brad Richards, I think Le Cavalier went there. And I'm missing a whole bunch of things. Oh, yeah, there's tons of guys. Oh, they would come in and just team roll teams. Yeah. Oh yeah, they were good. Yeah, there's no question.

SPEAKER_04 21:41

That's fascinating that a playoffs.

SPEAKER_02 21:42

Baseball too. Right, and the the the football teams, yeah. At least for those guys, because I a couple of I think his name was Marty Standish. He was a really good player. He played one of Memorial Cup in Portland. But he's a hell of a football player. Anyways, Notre Dame was they were very

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: I think that's a great point because I think that's what started all the bigger centers to say, hey, you know, we're losing kids to this place here. Why aren't we doing this?

SPEAKER_04 22:19

I mean, academies have taken over minor hockey in British Columbia. I think that's Albert. I think they're starting to see that trend now happen here. Talking about Toronto, uh Razor, you've got your time, you got your badge of honor being a former leaf. Um you being a 50 goal scorer in Toronto, a couple of 30-goal seasons as well. I'm always fascinated by a how Harold Ballard story. You were there, that you got to be a good thing. What comes to mind? What comes to mind? What story comes to mind when you think of that experience from one of the all-timers?

SPEAKER_01 22:57

I'm trying to think of the first one, but um one that just is so it was so prevalent because we we traveled, he would travel with us, and um and it wasn't at the beginning when we had to fly commercial, we were flying commercial. Yeah. And then uh once once we started to I think it was the next year or whatever, we started chartering and stuff. Well, we didn't know that he was maybe superstitious or whatever, but he he had to be the first guy on the plane. Had to be. Had to be, yeah. So he's the first guy on the plane, but he had to make a pit stop before. So we're we're standing there waiting to get on the the plane in front of the steps, and he's having a squirt on the front tires. You see you see the pilots going, What's going on down there?

SPEAKER_02 23:51

And you couldn't get on before him?

unknown 23:52

No.

SPEAKER_02 23:53

Everybody's just watching.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

And he was, you know, he was an older guy, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:59

And uh And he was starting to kind of go lose it at this point, too, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

Yeah, he had signs, you know, already. And so uh it didn't, you know, it didn't surprise you after a while. And we got on after one of those episodes, and and that was when Rick Vive had just scored 50 for I think the third straight year, if I'm not incorrect. But there was an article in the paper that said Vive scores fifty for the third straight time. Looks like Ballard's gonna have to loosen his purse strings, and he was the cheapest of all of them. But a great philanthropist.

SPEAKER_04 24:36

Like, yeah, he did the lot of donations to charity and all that, but didn't want to pay you.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

Yeah. Exactly. So, or Ricky.

SPEAKER_04 24:43

Or Rick or Rick in this case, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:45

So it looks like Ballard's gonna have to loosen his purse strings. And so he finishes the squirt, gets on the on the plane, he's sitting in the front row, and he but he's putting his bag up so you can't walk by him. And so I remember I remember it because Ricky had a fur coat. There's three of our guys had fur coats, right? Yeah. And I was behind him. Yeah. And I remember just like putting my chin on his fur coat. Oh, that's nice and soft. Harold's right here. He he puts his bag up, he turns to Ricky, and he's this far away, and he goes, If you think you're getting another f ⁇ ing dime out of me, you're crazy. And I'm, you know, I'm the young, the young one going, holy cow. This is this is real. But he he did um he did a a great thing. Um when Martin Kenny, the president of Notre Dame showed up the year Wendell uh came. So I'm three years older than Wendell, so Russ had come and formed that line, the hound line. Um and apparently Martin Kenny knocked on Harold's door, the apartment in in uh Maple Leaf Gardens. And come on in. So he he he goes in and he says, Who the hell are you? He says, I'm Martin Kenny, president of Notre Dame. He goes, I don't give a shit. He says, Well, he says, uh you owe me a million bucks. Harold said, Fuck off. This is the story I heard. What? And he goes, No, not till I get the money. He goes, Why do I why? He says, You know those three kids out there? And he was talking about the homeland. He says, they all came from my school. He wrote him a check. No way. Wrote him a check. Wrote him a check. Really? Oh shit. Oh, that's not the answer. I was like, wow. Seriously? Yeah. So that's what I heard. I thought he was gonna have security. Right. Arrest him for a million bucks? I don't know if it was a million, but that's what we asked for. But he wrote him a check. Probably not a million. When you think about it, a couple of times I heard so. A couple of times anyway. Yeah, he he was great that way.

SPEAKER_04 26:47

But um I feel like we we have just scratched the surface, but honestly, like thank you for giving us story time. This was fascinating. So great levels. That's it. Thanks so much. Yes, please come back.

SPEAKER_03 27:03

Gingers, you guys uh extinct yet? Do you guys put on a horse brush? Just rush rush secretarian down here.

SPEAKER_02 27:16

I wish I was secretarian. Not quite. You're fast. Oh, yeah, really good.

SPEAKER_04 27:21

Um there he is for one of the one of the Stanley Cup champion with the Montreal Canadians, uh probably remembered best as the Toronto Maple Leafs, the one and the only Gary Lehman joining us on this edition. Our biozoon! Well played. Well played.