Chat w/fab sister Stacey: Dyslexia, Autism and a Favorite Word:)

My guest today is my fabulous sister, Stacey.  I got to ask her about her experience with dyslexia as a child and now as an adult, (across three different continents – wait, four different continents, wow.) We also talk autism, labels and identity. She’s a therapist and her reflections are thoughtful and thought-provoking. I really enjoyed our conversation and I hope you do too. 

https://onthehumanspectrum.org/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:01

Welcome to On the Human Spectrum. I'm Tiam Fritz, and I get to talk to neuro-interesting guests to hear their insights and struggles, ideally with a giggle or two, as we explore the varying ways we find purpose, meaning, and connection, and define and perhaps redefine success. My guest today is my fabulous sister, Stacey. I got to ask her about her experiences with dyslexia as a child and now as an adult across three different continents. Actually, four different continents. Wow. We also talk autism, labels, and identity. She's a therapist, and her reflections are thoughtful and thought-provoking. I really enjoyed our conversation. I hope you do, too. As I tell everybody, anything you want out, including the whole thing, just goes out. No big deal. I love just talking. Great. Well, I'm a bit nervous. However, I... Yeah, because you know me, my first nature is anxious and panic. I find those wonderful strategies. And once the panic's over, I can get down to business. So, and do you know what I found out today? Because I Googled just moments before, you know, dyslexia, just so I like, you know, just quickly. And did you know that October is International Dyslexia Awareness Month? I did not know that. Actually, I Googled dyslexia yesterday as well because I was like, wait a minute, before talking about it, like I know how it feels. However, I mostly have avoided thinking of it for many different reasons. However, I would rather I trust you and I would rather not hear me back. It gets, it gets me nervous. So I don't know if it's dyslexia or autistic or some of the both or neither, or it just means interesting questions. The whole difference, the whole, like, where does autism dyslexia play together? The same different and you, and what does it all mean? Right. And how do we, well, I can say my go-to is I'm Stacy. I can identify with that so far. And I've been diagnosed with dyslexia, but never, not never tested, but I was tested. I mean, of course, I'm 54. So when I was tested, it was when I was in Marraine, which was in southwest France, which would be in probably like 78-ish. I didn't know it was before we left. Yeah. Well, I was going to ask you. Yeah. Well, mom brought me up to Paris to see a specialist that actually still has notoriously known centers for dyslexia. And now I've heard a couple of years ago, I think it's called Tuma or something like that. And anyway, and when I went up with mom, she, To Paris, he was an avant-gardiste, so he was ahead of his time, and he tested me, but I don't remember. I mean, I was like seven or eight, so I can't remember really much of it, except that he put me into a room that was supposed to be like reenact the womb, my mother's womb, with like a pinkish light. And It was very strange to me. I mean, it got me nervous more than anything. And then mom and I just laughed about it. And, of course, money was an issue and time. And I'm one of, as you know, five. And Paris, Marraine, which is in southwest France, to Paris was not easy at that time and much more expensive than it is now. Yeah. All that said, that was only one shot. And then it was kind of like, well, I felt like it was more like sink or swim all my life. Right. So I'm 54, so I've been swimming quite well. You've been swimming. Just keep swimming. Just keep swimming. Exactly. And I looked on Wikipedia, which, I mean, it was considered, it said, like, word blindness, which, I mean, I was like... I was, I thought two of my, four of my kids are, as you know, colorblind. And I would say, anyway, for me, I see the words. It's just, I would say for the people that are listening in that don't have dyslexia or not on the spectrum. First of all, I saw that it was only three to 7% and most of them are males. Oh, for dyslexia? Well, it used to be, but now they've realized that males were, of course, tested more than females. So anyway. And 20% of the people have symptoms of dyslexia. Anyway, to circle back to word blindness, I would say, in my case, I think that for the listeners, since I'm trying to learn Arabic. And so dyslexia is that when I see a word, it's kind of like flat. And if I don't associate other senses to it, for example, in Arabic, dog is kelb. If I don't think of my dog and think of how she smells and how she feels, kelb will not stick in my mind. I see. So for example, kelb, I've learned very easily because I've learned with dyslexia that I have to create a depth to the word or color or smell, or I have to attach my other senses. Oh, do you remember doing that when you were smaller? When you, like, I mean, you went from French to English, right? Like in, when you're like 11. Do you remember any of that transition? Or do you remember learning to read in the first place in France, in French? Younger, because I went to the American School of Paris before Marin, so. Oh, wow. I totally forgot that. Yeah, I was, I think, six. And also I read up on dyslexia. It's more apparent with, like, for example, there's less cases in Spain because Spanish, as you know, sounds and writes the same. Right, more or less. Yeah. Whereas French, holy crap. French is hidden everywhere. Well, I remember the sound A, which can be... spelled E-accent, E-R-A-I-T. I mean, a whole slew of different names. Infinite almost, yeah. Infinite for, especially for a dyslexic person. Anyway, to circle back to our listeners, for example, when you go as a tourist to a foreign country, you see the words, but you don't know them. Right, right. That helped me to think about, since we were going to have the talk, like, how it is in my case to live with dyslexia is that I was learning a foreign language, like literally on a daily basis. Like, for example, one of the very early memories is that I associate, for example, in France, the signs for exit are blue and for the correspondence are orange. So I... We look at the color before looking at the word. Right. Which was, I mean, a challenge when I was smaller, for sure. But now most countries have blue for exit in Europe anyway. However, in Abu Dhabi, where I am now, the exit sign is green. So, yeah, most people wouldn't. I think that most non-dyslexic people wouldn't even maybe even notice. Right. I mean, for example, Mark, my husband. doesn't even notice that. Well, he's colorblind too. Yeah, he's colorblind as well. But again, colorblindness... I mean, he doesn't mean he doesn't notice different colors, obviously. Yeah. He sees colors, but he names them differently. Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah. That's true. He's colorblind in the sense of what the more typical color experience is. And that's a really good point. That's exactly why I thought of colorblindness because since my two kids, they actually see color. Like I see the words, but for example, I don't know... where to, it's kind of like music. I don't know. I might not know where to, the pause is. For example, I often, especially when I'm tired, I will see, for example, a few words together. I mean, it is a sentence and I would, I could very easily take the end of one word and put it with the beginning of the other word. Mark calls it a carambolage de mots, which would be like a car wreck. Because it's true that sometimes like, or I will forget a word, like it's in my head, but I can't get to it. And then I have to think of a sentence, like a similar situation, like, okay, Stacey, you're missing a word. Remember this similar sentence. setting where you know you have that word like I can so yeah I can feel the word but it's not popping up or I start with a word that's similar and end up using another word and I know it's not that word but it just came out like it sounds like it's the storage is then in a different area than the typical and then accessing it you kind of have to access it via different ways then right like in the sense of this makes me think of facial blindness where I can recognize people by movement but not the face right like the movement and energy and it's kind of like stored in a different place where I'm putting it together with that versus yeah for sure like I it's I often say that I have a different way of uh puzzling things. Right. The outcome is the same. However, the process is different. Right. So some people, when they start the puzzle, I mean, often, I mean, obviously often you start with the corners and then the sides and then the middle. Well, a dyslexic person may have to start with the middle. Yeah. Or, or something that, that like, I will start a puzzle with something that I will recognize. Yeah. Yeah. Like, oh my goodness. Okay. Because sometimes it just looks like a sea of nothingness. Like, I remember when I was in university, I would learn things. And then I would, before I looked at the questions, I would write... Sorry, I'm sorry, because Felix just barked. You said when you're in university, you were looking at- In university, when I would learn things before looking at the exam questions, I would write down all the information. So I would have word recognition. Like I would be like, oh, this sentence, okay. Because of course you have stress. And when you have stress, your neocortex is not working because you're in panic mode, right? So- That didn't help. So I figured I learned trial and error that if I wrote down before, first of all, I knew that I had the answer somewhere on the paper. Right, right. So when you're reading something, I'm trying to think of like how to, I know you've, you've, you mentioned a different couple of ways, but so like my, in my very, this is already a lot. more information in a great way or experience about how your experience of reading something is much different than when I think of dyslexia. When I thought of dyslexia, I think of things as flipping a letter here or there or syllables, but actually it's really a whole process that's almost a little bit different. So if you're sitting down and open a book, like you read these days, obviously, and you read a book, what does that feel like? What's the process like? Like when you're tired versus not tired, for instance, because probably when you're tired, your alternative mechanisms aren't as... It probably takes more energy, obviously, right? Well, as I got older now, I don't know if it's autism or not as well, but I used to think that I would need total silence to read. And now I realize that I need specific... if I listen to specific classical music, like I look online and I look specifically classical music to study. Ah, interesting. And so I, because I, my sense, since my senses are way, I hide in, it's like Sarah apparently is that you absorb all, all these different, all this different information and you can't sort it out fast enough. So I found that listening to music gets my, part of my mind, like a soothing mechanism. And also I give myself time, which is difficult because I hate the word, as you know, slow.

UNKNOWN: 14:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 14:21

And so, and also I, now I'm, now I let myself. Ironically, Stacey, you just froze there. Exactly. And also. You ironically hate the word slow, but so take it from the top because it froze. You slowed down and then froze. Yeah. So I don't care for the word slow. So I have a difficult time giving myself the space to think Be like, it's okay, whatever the time you take for different reasons. Like sometimes I read a sentence like, I mean, 10 times. And so now I know that when that happens, I just have to close the book. Yeah. Just to clarify about the slow, it's not that you don't like to... have people call you slow, because that's not the case. It's the case that, for instance, you don't even like when Lulu, one of our sisters, mentions that she's slow at something, even when she's saying it in a way that she doesn't even feel bad about it. So I'm just saying it's not right. But I've been associated with slowness for reading and learning. So I hear slow, I get very I would say enraged, not angry, because as we know, angry is just to be able to say no. And I get enraged, a part of me. And of course, my rage is often, as we know, because I'm sad, because I feel like I'm lesser than. So it's a protective mechanism. Exactly. And now I give myself permission to read in public, which was really hard because i stand the page sometimes much longer than most people and so i mean obviously most people don't even look but i know but that that makes sense that's understandable i hadn't thought about that but yes that feeling self-conscious and then once you feel self-conscious it becomes harder and then i mean even though i know most people don't even notice of course then again the thing is i since i'm dyslexic slash maybe autistic maybe whatever Since I have these challenges, I've hired in other challenges. In other words, I often am very aware of everybody in my vicinity. So, of course, I'm looking at people the way I would be. Right. So, I mean, as most people do, of course. But yeah, right. But also the part that maybe that's autistic as trait or associated with dyslexia as well, the idea of not screening out, kind of being aware, as you're saying, of kind of everything. And then because everything is coming in, then sometimes things may take process, may take some time to process more. But in general, more is coming in, including more awareness of looking around. Now, of course, I find that a quality, not all the time, because it's tiring, of course. I mean, obviously, however, when we're in a different country, neither Mark nor I understand the language. I understand what's going on because body language. I can tell exactly, yeah. Oh, that's cool. So that's, I was looking at this international dyslexia thing. It was like, they had t-shirts like dyslexia is my secret weapon or my secret power. Exactly. Right now. Yeah. However, even the word like what the beep, beep, beep, even the word dyslexia, like really? Like, I mean, like, I have to circle back to how to spell that. And then I also come up with mind games, like, for example, dyslexia. I was like, okay, how do we remember that it's D-Y, not D-I. Right. And I was like, okay, D-Y-I. And I'm like, no, that's not right. It's DIY, right? Or something like that. But it's stuck. I'm like, in other words, I have to be able to have something stick. I have to go sometimes above and beyond. Like, for example, dyslexia to me, when I look at it, I'm like, I mean, it could be spelled anything. And then I read that you can actually get dyslexia from like, maybe if you hit your head, but that's called Alexia. Like that's even easier. I'm like, couldn't they have come up with an easier word for dyslexics? Like, honestly, even to say it, it's like, and when I was younger, I had a lisp. So I'm like, yes, that's right. You had the cutest lisp. No, not to me, but my name is Stacy. I'm like, let's add challenge to challenge. Like, Oh my goodness. So you remember when you were starting to learn that in English, cause you're the American school in Paris. I forgot about that. Totally. You were learning to read in English. I just remember this pain. And, uh, I don't like in the American school of Paris, I remember trying to basically, I mean, that's a blur, but I remember trying to make friends and, and I don't know what trade I can, maybe it's just me, but I, since it was difficult, I mean, I was an introvert. Like most people that know me now, they're like, really, you're an introvert because I'm I'm quite chatty. And since I went through the States, most Americans are extroverts. And if you want to make it in the States, you have to become an extrovert.

SPEAKER_01: 20:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 20:08

So, but I remember when I was younger, first of all, I would probably not speak at the dinner table. And one of the things I did, which is horrible now when I think about it, but I... I had a wonderful teacher that obviously looking back on it must have known, but I used to, well, I think you can say steal, but I would in my mind borrow because I would take toys or objects from different people in the classroom to be able to pretend to find it and give it back. So I would be, I would be like the savior because honestly, Because the rest of my day was total, I mean, like, I don't, I remember being like out of, like an out of body experience because I was, I mean, I think I was physically not even there most of the time. And then, and then when we went to Marraine, oh my goodness, I remember reading out loud, having to read out loud. So I would, read the paragraph. So somebody would be reading and I would read the paragraph afterwards, just in case I was picked on. Yes. So I, most of the time didn't even know. I mean, obviously didn't know what was going on, but I would have to try to read ahead of the game to be able to maybe manage more or less. And this is now in French. It was in French afterwards. I mean, because you went from English reading in the American School of Paris in the first couple of years, kindergarten, first grade then, right? Well, I only went to the American School of Paris one year. I was in Blanche-Castille. That's right. But I don't remember any of that most, I mean, other than looking for my mom and realizing that, oh my God, she wasn't there. And having like a panic attack because, you know, that's, That's my go-to. It does give you more energy. It does. I'm looking at like, wow, so learning how, trying to learn how to read in English and then subsequently very quickly in French. Yeah, I would say that I would, well, our parents put me into the American school because apparently, according to them, I refused to speak English. So they thought, let's put this dyslexic child that refuses to speak English into an English environment. But I think at that time, I think at that time they didn't realize I was dyslexic. Although our father is, so. Right, right, yeah. That's a whole nother can of worms, but yeah, good news, bad news. You started kindergarten in an American speaking, English speaking, French. You started kindergarten in French. Well, not kindergarten, but you know, in France, you have... Oh, the preschool. Preschool. So I would say... Not learning to read then. Not that I recall, but then you would learn words like... I mean, like, for example, my son, Roman, who's obviously dyslexic, he would say, instead of dinosaur, he would say... So even in speech, not just in reading? That's the thing. It's the whole nine yards. The whole skin caboodle. The whole thing. I would compare it to a whole drum set.

UNKNOWN: 23:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 24:01

There's a lot of stuff up there. Just can't get it out. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it was just painful. It sounds like, in other words, so you felt like you had trouble already in French language, even just the speaking part of it, getting things mixed up and not wanting to go there initially. You know, honestly, I don't, I sort of remember doing well in French, being comfortable. And I think that, I mean, given I probably would have had a hard time learning how to read, but I don't recall, I don't recall painful memories in preschool. Like I remember like a very soft environment. And so I don't think, although when we went out to, how would you say recreation in English? Recess. Recess. I would remember being quite alone. And that might be autistic. Right. Very autistic. Good news, bad news. It's like when my son was like, I didn't realize, I knew he was dyslexic because, of course, he had challenges learning. And then, I mean, Marcus, for the listeners, is colorblind. And I'm, how would you say, porteuse in English? Autosomal carrier, recessive carrier. He said, safe carrier. So I'm not colorblind, but I can give these jeans to my kids. Yay. And so. It's unusual in, I mean, Romain is a guy, but it's unusual in women. And you have a daughter who's obviously colorblind as well. Right. But what happened is that he had so many challenges learning that, and Claire was already, the firstborn was already colorblind. When he was born, when they told me, when he started telling me that he was maybe colorblind, I was like, Honestly, no. Like, honestly, you have enough challenges in your life. So now that I realized that I have all these other challenges that that basically, I was so much involved with my dyslexia that I would, I would say I would I mean, that's enough, right? I'm like, I only want one challenge in life. Right. I mean, I think about this a lot. When I was thinking, when you had mentioned about talking about dyslexia, I think, and autism, right? I think about how, for me, with the autism part, one of the wonderful escapes or connections was through books. And to not, and I know it sounds, I don't mean to pile on, but I'm just saying that that like the feeling of like that, like, wow, it's like, that gets me the idea that you didn't, it's that potential connection to like a narrator or like being immersed in a story and that that's would be hard for you is like, oh, like that's really too bad. Like that's, so do you find that you feel that connection in others, like in stories that are not written? Can it be as immersive where you feel? Well, I mean, until now, I would say, well, recently, I mean, I would say I started really enjoying literature reading at university. Before that, it was just challenging. I would say that I, since I came around to that very late, I had all these, I had all these, what's it called? Blocks or coping mechanisms or both? Coping mechanisms and blocks. Yeah. Well, more like blocks. Like if anybody would talk to me by reading, I would almost break out in a hive, you know? So the thing is, I think, but I, you know, I can rewrite this history and my history and my story. I believe, though, that if I had been accompanied differently, I may have... come to reading because I really like reading now I mean of course then again which which apparently is autistic because I just took a test last night I like certain books like I won't like I will not read I mean if I can avoid reading novels at all costs I mean I I mean I read I read your wonderful story and I read my daughter's stories because I I'm involved, like I can, I know the authors and they write very well, I must say, both of you. However, I'm more like in the self-help, like, I mean, obviously that's, that's what I've come to because I'm a therapist now. However, like, you know, which comes first, egg or chicken? Yeah. So you say you took a test yesterday, like an autistic person? Yeah, because I was like, well, let me see. I'm like, do I have like... Well, for example, when I was little, I remember shaking my leg up and down and that could be connected to autism. And I'm very time oriented. Like I... I respect that. We're both early today. Yeah, and also, for example, I remember, what's your obsession? Like, Attorney Wu's obsession is whales. And I was like, what am I obsessed with? I'm like, I'm obsessed with nothing. I mean, obviously, I'm obsessed with many things, but nothing. Whales. I'm going to show you whales on my notebook. And I love whales, too, I'm going to

SPEAKER_01: 29:52

say. I know. Whales.

SPEAKER_00: 29:54

But my obsession, and I remember because Nina used to get on my case, that's our sister, as you know, but for the listeners and she would be like, Oh my God, you so like you're, you're, I mean, I used to love watches. Like watches was my passion and the time. And, and to me it was, I think my escape was time. Yes. Like I would, I would, I see numbers with colors. Like I, I, To me, a color is not just a number. It's like a color. Yeah. I love odd numbers. I mean, I find them more plush and more round. More round. I'm sure ones are great, ones and threes. Yes, and they're rounder. Like, to me, even numbers are harsher. But, I mean, that's just me. And so, yeah, so that would be my obsession would be time and watches. Yeah. However, I learned, as in the lawyer Wu, to curb that obsession when Nina got on my case, like, oh, you're so obsessed with time and watches. And I was like, my God, that must be wrong. I think that's a nice thing about getting in your 50s. You can let your, as they say, your freak flag fly high. You can kind of go back to the stuff you enjoy. Yeah, I mean... Yeah, for sure. Like I still catch myself once in a while being like looking on to people around me. And then I'm like, I catch myself. I'm like, Stacy, you're going to breathe through that and you're going to just be you.

SPEAKER_01: 31:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 31:42

I mean, of course, I mean, as long as I'm kind and I come from like a peaceful place. Right. It doesn't always happen. By the way, Nina, of course, is obsessed with kitchen operations. Yeah. Although, I mean, when I get obsessed, like I have, throughout the years I've had different hobbies and I will be obsessed. Like I remember the barrettes, like I made like 300 or 400, 500 barrettes and then I got... part of that so I have those kind of this is where I feel like the ADHD part is also potentially like OCD which I just learned is linked to dyslexia I was like really I'm like all of it I feel like all of it's linked it's all right like different ways our brain I heard that autistics are not supposed to be I mean I find that I'm more emotional like I mean well yeah that's That's the bogus thing about when people, so they're describing autism from the outside. So autism from the outside may look like you're hiding feelings, but from the inside, it's turbulent feelings like crazy. Chaos. Yes. And that's why I like airports. I realized that there's so much chaos outside. I love airports so much. You know what I found? Yes. There's so much chaos outside that my chaos inside sounds calm. Yeah.

UNKNOWN: 33:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 33:05

It's all at the right frequency. I didn't think about that. Maybe that is because chaos. I love it. I love it because there's so much going on that I feel like I'm calm. Yeah. Also, there's a pressure off because there's no expectation. Yeah. I mean, well, now there's Wi-Fi on airplanes, which is sad. I think that I find that terrible. I find that sad because I can't hide anymore. Right. I think we could still hide. Yeah. I think we can still just turn off during airplane mode. Honestly, you can say I'm going on airplane mode, even if there's Wi-Fi. It's not a lie. I'm on airplane mode. Actually, my goodness, we should do airplane mode during the day. I do. Well, what I do is, well, now also, which is linked to autism, I realized that I put my ear pods in even if I don't put music so people don't talk to me. Like, like I realized like, wait a minute. And I need now, I just, the thing is I was so overly stimulated that I was getting tired. Now I realize that I need time. Like I can go out for one, two hours, maybe three hours maximum. And then I have to come home and recharge because I'm like, I'm like, honestly. And when I come in, it's like, wow, I breathe out and I'm like, oh my God, I'm home. Like the smell, the lighting is just right. The sounds are right. I mean, like. I often wonder, like, do other people not feel that way? That's what I'm curious about. What do typical people feel like when they get home? You know what I mean? Because that's describing me. I'm always wondering if there's a typical person. I mean, like, what is it? Like, what's the reference? Like, yeah. Who made the reference? Like, what was it? For example, in France. everything starts with 38. Well, I mean, 38 was a body like, yeah. Who chose that body to be 38? I mean, this, yeah. Anyway. So you were saying in college you started, why do you think that it was in college where you started to feel, and I'm trying to remember your words, more comfortable or more into the groove of reading? What changed? I had a wonderful, wonderful history teacher that would, yeah. I don't remember her name, unfortunately, but she was, she used to, tells history like a story. Oh, lovely. And, and then I also had a wonderful art class that I had to learn 50 slides. And it just, it just, I started thinking, wait a minute. I think I, I started allowing myself to like, I would sneak, like I would, kind of like a drug. Like I would, I would, I would go, somewhere that nobody would see me to read because like, was I able to read? Was I allowed to read? Was reading part of my identity? Because my identity was other than that. It was so many other different things. I mean, obviously we all have our weaknesses and our qualities. So reading was not one of my qualities. So I, for a long time, I would also tell myself that I'm like, oh, I have other qualities. So I would over invest those qualities and under invest reading because I was not identified with that. So then in college, you kind of were testing out and you were outside of the home environment and you could get yourself out. And you weren't also like, obviously college is a class of an hour or two here or there, not high school where you're in the same place all day long and feeling like, somebody's watching you in the same way. So a lot more freedom. Yeah. And also I didn't have, in high school, I had my brilliant sisters who were two years younger than I am that ended up in my same grade. And they were considered on paper geniuses. And I was considered lower IQ. I mean, that's the thing that's ridiculous, right? Because like, we're the same smartness. And what's interesting is from the same, I think we're different. We're different smartness in the sense that we have different ways of looking, but we're the same smartness level, but we're identified. So specifically growing up in particular ways. Yeah. Yeah. And, and identity as, as we all know is, is, is challenging for anybody. I mean, not only people that with dyslexia or autistic or any other, um, challenging uh identity i mean right and and i remember because also in the french system i mean the american system it's like you put your i remember putting my name on the paper and they were like bravo stacy you wrote your name i was like what i'm like wow you're kidding right and also the american system is not cursive which really helped me ah because i could i could like i could um You could close the P's, like the P's and the B's. But not only that, but there was a place for each letter. Ah, yes. And since it was all attached, like, where does the B start or end? Yeah. Especially in the cursive, the French cursive is, oh, my God. Like, especially the capital letter and the small letter, the capital letter doesn't even look like the small letter. It totally doesn't. Like, I remember T, right? I mean, the T doesn't look at all. What the hell? Yeah. And the E. I mean, the F, I mean, what the, I mean, honestly, it's just painful. And I remember, um, which is, you know, spelling and, and if you had five errors, it was a zero. And so, and for dyslexic person, it's like, why try? Because if you had a hundred or if you had 80 or if you had 20, it's still a zero. I'm like, yeah, whatever. The French system is, it was brutal. It's not about learning. It really doesn't feel like about learning in the same way. I mean, it depends on the kid. I mean, some kid excel in that, right? Yeah, but it's kind of like if you don't do it perfect, you're terrible. I mean, if you think about your example, there is no room to grow or learn or like here, go back. Yeah, it's worse than that. You can do better. Like, and also a hundred percent is not attainable because they actually don't give it to you. Yeah. Remember? Yeah. I mean, I mean, that's crazy. Yeah. The American system for dyslexic person anyway, for me, but of course I came from the French system. So the American system was, was to me magical. I don't know if a dyslexic that knows only the American system has the same You know what I'm saying? Like I had so many challenges with the French system that to me, the American system was a vacation. I do think that the American system, even what I hear now is a lot more supportive than the French system and a lot more like, let's help you how to learn. Like my kids now, and of course it's like 40 years later, so it's different, but it is about learning and learning how to learn and not so much you get it right or wrong and that's it. I mean, I don't know what the French school system is like now. Well, I remember when my kids started in school and now given they're 28 and 37 now, I remember... And 18. Yeah, I mean, 28, 27, 24, and 18. But I remember this with Claire and Roman, especially that when the kindergarten teacher was so proud because she was like, yes, in math, we learn French too. And I'm like, Really, I'm like, to me, two plus two is four, right? It's like, well, no, because we learned the sum of two numbers is equal to... Oh, God, that's horrible. You're like, don't even say that. I was already scratching myself with hives because I remember my, I mean, my... It just... Yeah, the American system is, I would say, I think that the best would probably be a Montessori system for a dyslexic person. And I would say I would have loved to be with other dyslexic people. Yeah. Like, you know, like, remember we read like zebras? Yes. Like other people are horses, which are beautiful. I mean, I love horses. Yes. to ride them I don't care to ride horses I love seeing them and seeing them wild and however I'm not a horse I'm a zebra I mean I'm neither nor but yes but you're not you're not a funny looking horse in other words you're you're not wrong as a horse it's because you're a zebra yeah yeah and and that that's what I would I would love for listeners to hear is that we just do process and do things differently. Yeah. It's, it's, and it's, it's a challenge. And some people see it as a handicap. And of course I find it my magical power now. However, before it was just, I mean, challenging. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because of, I mean, I think that more awareness these days makes it much easier. And so that's why the labels or the diagnosis and all of these things seem like it makes it easier. But I don't... However, I don't care for labels because labels... Well, it's not really so. Labels are interesting because it gives you a cadre. How would you say a cadre? A framework? Yeah. A framework. However, it can also... Constrain. Constrain and get you like your... I feel like once you're labeled, you're in prison. There's no way to go from there. It's like the identity issue of before. Identity-wise, you don't read. If you're somebody who doesn't read, then not exploring that. So I guess a label, but in a sense, a shorthand, but thinking of it in terms of the bigger picture, as you said, is we do things differently. It doesn't mean we can't do something. It's just different than what's commonly thought of as the way to do it. Right. And I would say that everybody is unique. Yeah. And everybody has a way of processing and doing things. And so a label, for example, dyslexia on the spectrum, right? I mean, there's from zero to a hundred, I mean, and probably more, infinity. Like there's so many possibilities. And then dyslexia with autism or dyslexia with an empath, because I'm empathetic. And so... I mean, that's why I don't care for labels. That's why from the start, I say I'd like to identify with Stacey. Yeah, I like her. Like once you're labeled, like how can you get away from the label? Yeah, I guess that's when people start to embrace versus trying to get away with, get away from, right? Right. Well, yeah, I mean, but I think that it's, It's neither, nor, or, and, and. Although it's nice to have a label when I, now I introduce myself and I often say pretty fast that I'm dyslexic. So it's true that for that, it's good. It feels like it's a shorthand way of saying like, I have these traits which will give, which may... look different to you and if this is one way of interpreting it instead of it's like with the autistic stuff there's something a little freeing about one of the things about like thinking or being having the autistic label or identity or traits is to be like oh it's not just me right there are other people like me and it's nice to feel like there are other people like you and you're not the only one you're part of a system which is nice however when when i say like i'm i'm autistic or I believe I am or on the spectrum, whatever people look at me and they're like, no, you're not. Yeah. And I'm like, I'm like, I mean, I'm like, well, I mean, really? Okay. I guess you're right. And often it's like, somehow I feel people feel like, like, that's a compliment. Like, of course you're not, you know, that's a terrible thing. Of course you're not. Or, or, or yeah. And, or like, that's ridiculous. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like, or preposterous or whatever. It'd be like, well, after this conversation with you, I'm going home and hanging out at home for two hours. I'm going to go into my covers for a while and watch Netflix to forget this. To get over. But the thing is now, now also I realize that since I am 54 and I realized that I can't I think I'm less looking for approval. In other words, first of all, I don't, I give myself the opportunity not to like everybody. Yeah. I was like, I need to like everybody and everybody needs to like me. And I'm like, well, actually more than like love. Right. And I'm like, well, you know what? This person is a wonderful person, but she's just not for me or he. Yeah. I mean, there are most people, I mean, Obviously, not all people, but most people are, I would say, kind enough. Yeah. But just not for me. Right. And I'm not for them. Yeah. So I can step away now and be fine with it. I'm like, oh, I think I'll step away from you. That's on good days. On bad days, I answer them and then it doesn't always go well for them. And then, and then of course it doesn't go well for me afterwards. Like during the time I'm blowing them out of the water, it feels great. Not so much afterwards. And then my friends guilt and shame come in. Yeah. They're good buddies. Oh yeah. When you need them or even when you don't need them, they're always happy to. Yeah. They're there. Yeah. So, yeah. That is one nice thing I have to say about getting older, at least. I mean, I don't know. I don't. I would say wiser because some people are younger and wiser. Oh, totally. I mean, I've seen kids much younger that, I mean, I'm like, wow, had I been that wise at their age? Wow. Well, I think sometimes some of this is taught, like emotional stuff is taught in a way that at our time, like just, you know, abilities. Well, our time, obviously, our environment and society and then the challenges of moving every three years and some money problems and to name a few. Right,

SPEAKER_01: 48:40

just a few.

SPEAKER_00: 48:41

Just a few. So because, I mean, some people that were dyslexic or are dyslexic from my time and then that were born in 1970 might have made out better than me. I mean, with the same range. And what do you mean by better? And what do you mean better in this case? Well, I would say that better, I would say that we're accompanied differently, like in a softer way. Like I, my, I mean, because of, well, first of all, obviously, as you know, we're, we're the grandchildren of immigrants, which is a harsh, I mean, a harsh choice to make, to make or have to make or feel like you have to make. So, and then so money I think not only money but I always say luxury is information because money you can potentially get find a way to get in other words if you have the information for example when you go to college you can be not sponsored how would you say that mentored when you get a bourse. Like a stipend, like a funded? Not funded, but a scholarship. Scholarship, yeah. Like if you don't know to go for the scholarship, then you won't get the money, right? Yeah. So I'm like, in other words, to circle back to what I was saying is that I think potentially a child that was born with the same range as I was under different circumstances, money and or information, maybe special tutors or, for example, I learn sometimes if I walk or if I sing, I can learn. So in other words, I think that maybe, I think that when you have more education and or money, you have the space and the capacity to listen to your child differently. Right. And then also in the sense of then the narrative is different. So I guess from you're not good in school, quote unquote, to you learn a different way and here's the help to learn a different way. I mean, I had, I mean, it was said to me that I was lazy. Right. So, I mean... Of course, I'm not saying money and education doesn't come with baggage and maybe the parents would be psychologically challenged as well. It might have turned out the same way as me, but I don't know. Better meaning obviously with more tools at your disposal, but better like now? I feel like... Had I moved around less, had more stable, like, first of all, not switching from French to English to English to French, blah, blah, blah. And also knowing the same environment. Yeah. Like everything was new every three years, you know, and I would go in feeling like very lonely and alone. Like I would be like, Kind of like in a cave. I was like, don't look at me. There's nothing happening here. Like,

SPEAKER_01: 52:22

you're kind of like, oh, my God. Yeah,

SPEAKER_00: 52:26

I think that with any challenge, be it physical and or mental, if you have some sort of stability and security around you, it makes sense. For example, if you have the same house and you have the same way to go to school and the same way to come back, the same lunches, potentially the same way, you know. Yeah. That makes it easier. You get more, you have more capacity to then do the thing that's more challenging instead of spending everything, all your effort on just. Yeah. Then again, that said, I always tell my clients, well, they're not mine, but the clients I, I, a company that I, pain equals resources. So kind of like the old saying, it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger. So I guess that's my magical power. Pain equals resources. In what way does it translate? I mean, can you say more about that? Pain equals resources. I think I see what you're getting, but saying. Yeah, I would say that I can read a room much better than most people. And how would I say I, Well, since I've moved around quite a bit, I guess I'm in tune to people's differences. And I will, how would I say? I think that I would probably say that when I meet somebody, I try to ask them questions about themselves. Like, I think I hope, well, maybe not. I don't know. But I think I make people feel at ease. Maybe not.

UNKNOWN: 54:06

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00: 54:06

It's only somebody else can answer that. I can't. So then the pain and the sense of pain and discomfort causes growth and causes you to have other resources, like learning resources, in a sense, in the same way as having the challenge. For example, the exit sign. Right, exactly. I can see that. across the subway, you know, most people will be looking for the E-X-I-T, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I told you about a friend who went to Paris for the first time and he read each sortie as the place of where the, like the sortie was the name of a village. So he's like, I don't want that. I don't want that. And then at some point he realized that that was, it was actually not a village name or a stop name, but the... The exit. I mean, I don't even see the word. I'm looking for the blue sign. Yeah,

SPEAKER_01: 55:00

yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 55:01

So, I mean, it just, yeah. And I, for example, in Croatia, I don't know the language, but I could remember that with the old lady with the fig tree. We're not going to go into that, but I just, I would say that, yeah, that. That because of using these, what other people might think of alternative ways, you've actually strengthened them for other people. other applications as well in a sense that they helped you to read and to process language but also they strengthened for in other ways they they are become resources to you in other ways is that am i understanding that right yeah maybe and also for example like when i look at something like something new i'm like well this is just going to take time where somebody that's faster usually will be like i'm not getting this and like it's not for me and i i'm like okay I just need time. Yeah. Like, or, or, and, and since I give myself the permission to take time, I often find the solution faster. I like that. Yeah. And, and also, and, and sometimes my mind is, is actually faster than some people. And I'm like, wow. Okay. It's all hyper-connected. It's hyper-connected. Right. Exactly. I, sometimes I tell them, you don't have to spell it out. Like I got it. Like I'm already there. And in fact, if you spell it out, I might not get it. So don't spell it out. Exactly. Please don't spell. Exactly. Good point. Very good point, Tanya. Please do not spell it out. That's very good. Yeah. All of our different fabulous braids. Yeah. But thinking back to approval, I know we only have a few minutes, but back to approval, I think the neat thing about slowly not surely necessarily but slowly approving of oneself is seeking less or needing less that feeling of approval from others which of course approval from others is fleeting and you can't feel approval unless you prove of yourself right right however i mean as we all know we we do live i mean we're human beings. We need other people, right? I hate that. I know. Sometimes me too. But, and then again, sometimes I love it, but yes. So I think that it's, it's obviously, I mean, not only do I think most people think that, but it's more complex than, you know, I, I, then again, because I, you know, I love color. So it's not one color. The other, it might be. And yes. I like the word and. That's my new go-to word. I know it's a good word. Blah, blah, blah. But I'm like, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, well, you know, how about and? How does that feel? But you see, even when I say and, like, to me, it has a whole dimension. Like, it has a color. It has a feeling. Like, I don't know if people that are, well, I mean, you're not dyslexic. Does it have a color? No. So and has a color for you. It has a sense of color. It's a feeling. It's like, yeah. It's a whole world. Interesting, because it's connected, lights up lots of places in your brain. Yes. That's neat. It's a very happy word for me. Oh, I love it. So it actually even has an emotional, like there are lots of attachments to it. Oh, wow. That's really cool. Yeah, to me, if I'm focusing a lot, then I can see this might be your nightmare. I'm sorry. If I'm focusing a lot, I can see the words written out. So it's like the opposite in the sense of they're written out, like as if I'm reading them. Yeah, my mind has gone blank because I just can't. I'm like, oh my God. What are you kidding? I'm like out there. I'm like, wait a minute. It's already on paper. What do you mean? Now they can move? Actually, I may be like a hyperlexic because like if somebody is speaking and I'm really focusing, then I see it written out in front of me. No, I don't have that. I'm like reading a ticker tape. But I love, yeah, I love the idea then that everything is imbued with so much. Yeah, I have to, I have to have senses attached to words. Otherwise, I don't, it doesn't stick. Like, otherwise, they're just flat. I mean, it's kind of like they can fall off the page. Like they can, you know, I mean, this, like, that makes me. Think of that wonderful Winnie the Pooh movie. You know the Winnie the Pooh movie where he's walking on the letters and the letters fall down the page and he falls down with them? No. I'll have to send you that clip. Honestly, whenever there's letters, my mind goes blank. I'm exaggerating, but I don't remember that. No. And just, oh my goodness, I remember the pain of writing because then, of course, dyslexics. I think I was basically left-handed.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:06

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:07

And, you know, I used to suck my left thumb. Although, if I sucked my left thumb, maybe I was using my right one. But anyway, I had this feeling that I probably was maybe left-handed. I pushed into right-handedness. Yeah. It's just our grandmother was ambidextrous. Yeah. Or she might have started off left-handed and got forced to, but whatever. She didn't learn how to read until she was an adult and write, so it's not like she was... No, are you kidding? She learned with the priest on the island. Yes, but I think she was a grown-up. That's right. I mean, I don't think she was like six or seven. No, you're right. She was a grown-up because she had had Hilda already. Yeah. Right. Good point. Yeah. So any other questions? I mean, I think that my conversation was more like a whirlwind of words that were all stuck together. I mean, I hope you can get something out of it. Oh, I love it all. Actually, it was really cool because I got to learn a lot that I, I, I must have known at some point, but didn't remember anymore. And actually I did not know how you experience. I never, I made assumptions about dyslexia and I never knew your experience of it. So it's like, oh, it's much fuller. Like it's my experience. Yeah. But I had, I feel a much fuller experience of what that means. And also it's really neat, the idea of identity, which this is, we're talking about dyslexia and autism, but it's really all about identity and how identity can either be something that restrains you from growing or you can grow into an identity you want. So I think that's a really cool thing. Like just as a total aside, like I'm 52 and for the first time in 52 years, I went to exercise at 7.15 in the morning. And if anybody had ever asked me, like, I was like, I'll never exercise in the morning. I'm just not that kind of person. Right. You see? Yes. And now I'm like, oh, you try. Yes. Well, I think I wasn't that kind of person. I think things have changed. But in the sense of now. Or not. Yeah, true, true. But now I'm like, oh. No, no. And part of it is like growing into that identity is like, ooh, I'm the kind of person who does this, you know? Well, I would say also. Also. And we go back to and. And I can be. Yes. And it opens a whole new... Space. It's very cool. I love that word, space. I love space. Maybe we can end on space. Yes. The final frontier. No frontier. Sorry, no frontier in space, you're right. By the way, have you heard that for a short time, the moon has another moon? What? A mini moon. Like currently. Mini-moi. It's called a little asteroid in orbit or something like that. How cool is that? Two moons. Much cooler than other things that are happening in the world. Are there any questions you would like me to ask you that I have not asked? And you don't have to? Well, I mean, as my per usual, I will think of a question probably afterwards or not. No, I think that, thank you. Anyway, thank you for being such a great listener. It was such a joy to hear you. Thank you. Ditto.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:27

Very cool.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:28

Anyway, I mean, of course, now I'm going to worry because that's, of course, what I do best. One of the things I do best. And I was going to say and. I think we should finish with the word and. Thanks for listening today. If you have questions, concerns, comments, please let me know. You can email me at onthehumanspectrum at gmail.com. It's on my website and I'll put the link in the show notes. And I'm not going to ask you to follow or subscribe. If you want to, great. I'm sincerely impressed since I can never quite do that myself. But perhaps you can consider sharing this episode if you enjoyed it or found it thought-provoking or helpful in any way to somebody you know, friend, family, acquaintances, house pets, or plants. Thanks.