Sammi Chaos on Intergender Wrestling and Embracing Discomfort In The Wrestling Ring

This week on After Dark, we’re joined by indie wrestling standout and certified harvester of sorrows, Sammi Chaos—our first-ever female guest and instant icon. From the Mecca to the middle of a triple threat she wasn’t even booked for (until 10 minutes before bell time), Sammi brings the chaos, heart, and eyeliner.

We talk about growing up an Attitude Era kid, falling into wrestling after a very honest drunk epiphany, and balancing a 9-to-5 with throwing bodies on weekends. She shares how she’s carved out space for herself in the intergender scene, why she trains like Rey Mysterio but throws like Bam Bam, and what it’s like cutting promos on your real-life best frenemies. Also: eyeliner symmetry, kids calling her an a**, and why indie wrestling is the real land of misfit toys.

It’s chaotic, it’s emotional, it’s funny as hell—and it’s everything we love about wrestling and the weirdos who make it worth watching.

Timestamps:

• 00:00:00 – Intro & Guest Reveal: Sammi Chaos joins as the first female guest
• 00:02:23 – Wrestling Origins: Drunken epiphanies, desk jobs, and jumping in
• 00:04:00 – Social Anxiety & Performance: Overcoming fear and finding power through wrestling
• 00:06:20 – In-Ring Psychology & Influences: Learning from ROH, Kurt Angle, and Rey Mysterio
• 00:10:30 – Hard-Hitting Style: Sammi’s love for physical matches and making them feel like fights
• 00:13:28 – Improv & Adaptability: Last-minute bookings and the value of in-ring chemistry
• 00:15:20 – Intergender Wrestling: Storytelling dynamics and flipping the usual power narrative
• 00:17:54 – Full Circle Moments: Wrestling her trainer Brother Greatness
• 00:20:24 – Promos & Character Work: Her chaotic feud with Brian Baum and the power of creative freedom
• 00:21:32 – Pride Shows & Representation: Why inclusive shows matter
• 00:24:25 – The Persona vs The Person: Sammi Chaos as armor for social anxiety
• 00:27:42 – Makeup, Gear & Rituals: How visual identity enhances confidence
• 00:31:04 – Balancing Wrestling & Work: The physical toll and emotional reward of the grind
• 00:32:56 – Favorite Collaborators: Locker room love and tag team chaos
• 00:35:11 – Tough Coaching & Growth: Getting pushed beyond physical limits
• 00:40:53 – The Beauty of Indie Wrestling: Diversity, gimmicks, and true creative freedom
• 00:43:01 – Hopes for Intergender Wrestling: Acceptance, visibility, and booking without boundaries
• 00:45:09 – What’s Next: Upcoming shows and staying busy

The New To Wrestling Podcast follows two friends who enjoy wrestling but are in different stages of their fandom. Xavier Cruz serves as your guide through generations of professional wrestling while Kelsey Silva experiences these matches for the first time. Climb into the ring weekly to relive the famous matches beginning with the Attitude Era!

Transcript

Kelsey Silva [0:27 - 1:27]: Good evening, everybody, and welcome to another very special edition of the new to wrestling podcast, After Dark Tonight. I am so excited. I'm smiling from ear to ear. My cheeks kind of hurt a little bit. I, like, really excited to introduce this incredible wrestler that we had the absolute privilege of seeing at the Mecca for a Jurassic Celebration. And I just saw this wrestler, and Xavier and I were both like, holy shit. Like, we have to meet this person. Like, wow. Like, what an incredible wrestler. Incredible presence. And our very first female wrestler on the show could not be more flattered that this wrestler decided to join us. She is incredible. You know her, you love her. Actually, some of you, I will say, are shaking in your boots when you see her coming. And I'm shaking in my boots as well, because out of pure excitement and joy, she is the harvester of of sorrows girl. It's Miss Sammy Kangas. 

Sammi Chaos [1:29 - 1:32]: Oh, my gosh. I'm gonna have you just announce me all the time. 

Xavier [1:38 - 1:39]: That's the move, baby. 

Kelsey Silva [1:39 - 1:51]: I. I would be delighted. Sammy Chaos, it is such an honor to have you here on the show. Our very first female wrestler could not be more full of joy that it's you. That it's you. 

Sammi Chaos [1:51 - 1:55]: I'm very happy. Thank you so much. 

Kelsey Silva [1:55 - 2:21]: Of course. So I. The premise of our show is that I am new to wrestling, and Xavier has been. Is a lifelong fan. And I'm pointing this way because for me, he's that way, but he could. He's over there, but somewhere. And so I just. I'm so excited to get to. To talk to you. We both are. And I would just love to know how you got interesting. Like, how does someone like Sammy Chaos end up in a wrestling ring? 

Sammi Chaos [2:23 - 2:41]: That's such a good question. I'm still trying to figure that out. No, I mean, I. I also grew up watching wrestling. You know, me and my older brother used to watch all the time, and I grew up during the attitude era, so I'm probably dating myself. So it's all right. 

Xavier [2:41 - 2:41]: Same thing. 

Kelsey Silva [2:41 - 2:43]: Oh, no, we're old hags. You don't have to worry about us. 

Sammi Chaos [2:43 - 2:45]: Oh, thank God. My people. 

Xavier [2:48 - 2:51]: We'Re just like elder emos that grew up, so it's all. 

Sammi Chaos [2:54 - 3:46]: God, everyone I speak to is so much younger than me, so I'm just like, all right. But, yeah, I always. I always grew up watching, and I was like, one of the only girls in school that used to watch wrestling. And then about 5, 5ish years ago now, I got really drunk one night, and I was. I just Decided I was, like, tired of sitting at a desk job 9 to 5, Monday through Friday. And I was like, let me see if I'm any good at, you know, wrestling. And so now I wrestle and I sit at a desk 9 to 5, Monday. So. So, you know, we're trying to. We're trying to drop the Monday through Friday thing, but. Yeah, and that's. The rest is history here. Wow. 

Kelsey Silva [3:46 - 3:59]: And I love that because I. You have mentioned in other interviews that you have social anxiety. Much same. I was listening to your Ringville. Ringville interview, which shout out to khs. I love that man. 

Sammi Chaos [4:00 - 4:01]: Love him. 

Kelsey Silva [4:01 - 4:38]: I, I was like, I have to. I need to send him, like, flowers or something because the way I watch, like, all his interviews with wrestlers before we do ours. What a sweetheart. I was like, you do so much work for me and you don't even know. But he will be. He will be getting a fruit basket soon. But I related to so much of what you were saying because I am also a notorious car sitter. Like, I. Xavier has my location and my. Where I park my car is not the address of my apartment. And I'll be sitting there and suddenly I'll get a text from him, like, get out of the car. 

Sammi Chaos [4:38 - 4:40]: Get inside, damn it. 

Kelsey Silva [4:40 - 5:01]: All right, fine. But I, I. So I related to so much of what you said. And I think it's so interesting, though, because you also said, like, kind of to counteract the social anxiety, you just have to do it. So I think it's interesting you got into wrestling that way where you're like, I just gotta do it. Like, I just gotta do it. I think that's so funny. 

Sammi Chaos [5:01 - 5:15]: That's literally. Yeah. And it sounds so stupid, like, to say, like, you just have to do it. But that's all it is. Like, I'm like, I will sit in my car for hours. Like, it's. There's something very wrong with me. 

Kelsey Silva [5:15 - 5:24]: No, same. It's actually, it's sinister, like, but I just feels like I'm contained. This is my ecosystem. Like, I'm safe in here. 

Sammi Chaos [5:25 - 5:27]: I'm outside. But I'm like, not outside. 

Kelsey Silva [5:28 - 6:19]: Yeah, 100%. I so, I so get that. I also, when you said you were like, well, I've. I've learned to get more comfortable, but I'm also like, I'm never comfortable. I was like, ever, Ever. I so get that. I also love, though, you said you should always be a little bit uncomfortable, though, because, like, of you know, it. It lends itself to learning to, like, like, kind of like, sitting at the edge of discomfort for the sake of learning. And I could be totally wrong, but I. After listening to you and watching your matches, I feel like you're the type of person that really, like, you really can be very cerebral about wrestling. Like, you really want to learn, and you will, like, kind of sit on that edge of discomfort to, like, learn. Is that true? 

Sammi Chaos [6:20 - 7:34]: 100. I'm constantly learning. I even said it in that interview. I was like, I am constantly watching wrestling. Like, not. Not me, not myself, but, like, watching, like, just old wrestling, a lot of old, like, Ring of Honor stuff. And just. I try to soak in as much wrestling as possible, and I try to use it. You know, not everything pertains to, like, my character or, you know, my size or anything like that, but I try to soak in as much as possible. And what can I get from this and put it into my matches to make it, you know, more interesting for everybody? Watch. Because it's like, okay, what is this, you know, big going to do? Like, oh, well, she's gonna swatch that, you know, that other person. But it's like, it's so much more than that, you know, and it's a lot of psychology, and there's so much more that goes into wrestling that I ever knew. So it's like, when I started, I was like, wait a minute. I was like, not only is it physically challenging and holy is it physically challenging, but also, like, emotional, mental. It's. It's so much. I am so tired. 

Kelsey Silva [7:35 - 7:36]: Yeah. Oh, my God. I bet. 

Sammi Chaos [7:37 - 7:39]: But no, it's a lot of fun learning. 

Xavier [7:40 - 8:00]: So, you know, is there a, like, a wrestler that you like either go back to and watch a lot or, like, pull from that? We wouldn't necessarily think that you notice, like, you know, pull from as in copy, but, like, take influence from that. We wouldn't necessarily guess based on, like, just the way that you are in the ring. 

Sammi Chaos [8:01 - 8:08]: Yeah, I take a lot of the way I watch a lot of Kurt Angle now. 

Xavier [8:09 - 8:09]: That guy. 

Sammi Chaos [8:10 - 8:22]: Oh, my God. Especially a lot of Kurt Angle and Rey Mysterio, because even. Even though Kurt Angle is not, like, way bigger than Rey Mysterio, Rey Mysterio is just so small. 

Xavier [8:23 - 8:23]: Right. 

Sammi Chaos [8:23 - 8:55]: That it's just the dynamic is still there. So I try not to watch, you know, I mean, of course I watch, like, Vader and Bam Bam and, like, the big guys, but it gets repetitious. So when I switch and, like, watch someone like Kurt Angle, I'm like, how can I integrate that into, like, how I move? Like, even just the way I move or carry myself in the ring, it's. You have to take it from everywhere. So I'm not going to move like Rey Mysterio, unfortunately, but like, neither will I. 

Kelsey Silva [8:55 - 8:55]: It's very. 

Xavier [8:58 - 9:04]: Well, like he's like 50 something and still trucking. So, like, nobody moves like Rey Mysterio. 

Sammi Chaos [9:04 - 9:08]: Like wild. Wild. Maybe Dominic Mysterio. 

Kelsey Silva [9:08 - 9:13]: Yeah, maybe. I was gonna say, I think even sometimes Rey Mysterio is shocked how Rey Mysterio moves. 

Xavier [9:13 - 9:13]: I agree. 

Sammi Chaos [9:13 - 9:14]: Which. 

Kelsey Silva [9:14 - 9:23]: God bless. I would love to know what that's like to be like, woohoo. Like, that's cool, right? Had no idea I was capable of that. 

Xavier [9:23 - 9:24]: Love that. 

Sammi Chaos [9:24 - 9:26]: Yeah. He just goes, it's wild. 

Kelsey Silva [9:27 - 9:45]: And since you mentioned Ring of Honor, is there like, what is it about, like, early Ring of Honor that like, really appeals to you? Because I've seen like a few Ring of Honor matches in our quest for education and there is something so like, like that about it. Like, I don't know if I have the words, but it's like that. 

Sammi Chaos [9:47 - 10:20]: I love that. It's like, it's gritty. I think that's, for me, that's the best term for it. It's just, it's because if WWE is corporate, you know, quote unquote, it's like ROH is like corporate without the CEO being there. So it's like, it's just gritty and it's. Everyone is just, you know, doing whatever the they want, but it's kind of like at a corporate level, but they're just being the out of each other. 

Kelsey Silva [10:20 - 10:29]: Oh yeah, yeah. Because I think you said too, like, you love, you love a fight. Like, you love to just like get in the ring with somebody who's like, you're gonna, you're gonna duke it out. 

Sammi Chaos [10:30 - 10:51]: Yes. I, I just had a match with Gabby Forza last week. It was. And she's small, but holy shit, like, she's mighty. And we beat the shit out of each other. I was like, oh my God, thank you so much. Like twisted, but it's like, that's what it is. I'm like, thank you for hitting me. 

Kelsey Silva [10:53 - 11:00]: We had such a great, like, meat mash today. Thank you so much. That's amazing. 

Sammi Chaos [11:01 - 11:04]: So good for throwing your body into my body. 

Xavier [11:05 - 11:12]: Amazing. That's kind of. It's the name of the game though. I feel like you have to have that. You got to have that. You gotta love it. 

Sammi Chaos [11:13 - 11:17]: Oh yeah. I like when it looks like a fight. Yeah. 

Kelsey Silva [11:17 - 11:22]: And it certainly does. I mean, when we saw you, I was like, I Got it. 

Xavier [11:22 - 11:24]: That was. Yeah, because that was like a triple. 

Kelsey Silva [11:24 - 11:25]: Like, she's like. 

Xavier [11:27 - 11:31]: Because that was fun. It was like a triple threat match. So there's like a whole, you know, there's like, you. 

Sammi Chaos [11:31 - 11:32]: You. 

Xavier [11:32 - 11:42]: You do, like, what you do. You're, like, imposing. You're there, but there's just more dynamic as far as, like, what they can. What offense they can try and do against you and that sort of stuff. It's always a good time. 

Sammi Chaos [11:43 - 11:45]: Yes. Yeah. And you have to make it make sense, so. 

Xavier [11:45 - 11:46]: Right. 

Kelsey Silva [11:46 - 12:21]: Yeah. And I. Yeah, I. I think, too, you brought up a good point previously in an interview also where you were saying, like, which we talk about this a lot and Xavier, like, really enlightened this to me. Or it's like, when you. It's actually so important for, like, also the smaller wrestler. Wrestler to be a good sell because it works for both of you. And, like, we talk about this a lot with, like, for example, the Undertaker, where it's like, he was so scary because everyone else was so scared of him. Like, other. If everyone was like, okay, then, like, everyone else would feel that way. 

Xavier [12:22 - 12:22]: Right. 

Kelsey Silva [12:22 - 12:41]: But, like, yeah, so there is that, like, kind of symbiotic relationship where it's like, yes, like, I am the stature that I am, so I am inherently imposing. But if you act like I really broke your shit, like, you also came back from me breaking your shit, and I'm capable of that and everyone wins. 

Sammi Chaos [12:41 - 13:28]: Yeah. And a lot of people that I've come across don't. Not that they don't see it that way, but they don't want to see it that way. Maybe where it's like, I. I'm big, so I'm, like, not supposed to bump as much. Right? So. But I love. I. I'm so twisted. I love, like, getting my ass kicked. I'm like, yes, it's my Atlantic down. Like, come on. You know, it's a fight. And it makes me look so much stronger if, like, you're beating me down and I rise up and I end up kicking your ass. So, yeah, people. I wish they understood that, like, selling could even, like, get you in spots that you wouldn't even think imaginable. So it's. It's a give and take. So. 

Kelsey Silva [13:28 - 13:37]: Yeah. And I think too, you had said, like, you at this point in your wrestling career, because you've been wrestling for, I think, is it three years now? 

Sammi Chaos [13:38 - 13:40]: Yeah, it's about three. About three. 

Kelsey Silva [13:40 - 14:08]: I like that you're getting more comfortable too, with, like, dictating what not maybe dictating is the wrong word, but, like, kind of going with what happens in the ring and, like, getting more comfortable with, like, the improvisational aspect of it. Is that, like. Because that, to me, the improv aspect of wrestling is always the thing that gags me. I'm like, I'm shocked that so much of this is, like, we're just kind of flowing with it, like. So I'm always, like, mind blown by that aspect of wrestling. 

Sammi Chaos [14:11 - 14:38]: Yeah. I mean, if you have, you know, one person that knows how to work, then it's like, you guys can call two things and then make, you know, an 8 to 10 minute mad. And that's the triple match. The triple threat match. Thrown into the match about 10 minutes before the show started. I wasn't even supposed to be there. Yeah. So. 

Kelsey Silva [14:39 - 14:40]: Oh, my God. 

Sammi Chaos [14:40 - 14:50]: Someone had gotten sick. Yeah, someone got sick and they needed a third person. And I just happened to be there enjoying the show. And, you know, you're always supposed to. 

Xavier [14:50 - 14:54]: Have your gear, so that's amazing. 

Kelsey Silva [14:55 - 15:20]: That's crazy. And we just talked about this with the prospects. We had them on the show, and they were like, yeah, you always travel with your gear. And I was like, that's so funny. I've never heard that. Like, the. This is the first time I'm hearing about it. So that is so interesting that, like, that happened too. God, I love that. You were saying the promoter came up to you 10 minutes before and asked if you had your gear. 

Sammi Chaos [15:20 - 15:26]: Yeah. And I was like, oh, okay. I was here to enjoy the show, but I'm gonna enjoy it in the ring, I guess so. 

Kelsey Silva [15:26 - 16:22]: I love that. That is so cool. I also wanted to talk about. Because we're talking about, like, storytelling in wrestling and stuff like that. You do intergender wrestling, so you wrestle men, women of anyone, whoever went in between. And I. You had said. And I thought this was so interesting that, you know, with. When you wrestle women, you. The storyline is pretty similar every time, where it's like, it's the David and Goliath. And then when you wrestle men, because they're of, like, a more similar stature to you, you can kind of reverse it. Or do you. I'm just wondering, like, do you. Because also you kind of, like, love to challenge yourself in learning that way. Like, do you find, like, doing a different storyline that way, like, kind of like, works your brain a little bit differently? Is it just kind of like a whole, like. Because I know it's physically way different, but. 

Sammi Chaos [16:22 - 16:23]: Yeah, yeah. 

Kelsey Silva [16:23 - 16:26]: But, like, the storytelling aspect of it, I think is really interesting. Too. 

Sammi Chaos [16:27 - 16:42]: Yeah, it. Definitely, it. I have to, like, flip my way of thinking because I'm so used to being the bigger one in the ring. So when I'm in there with someone that's maybe my size or bigger, it's like, oh, like, I'm wearing my stereo today. 

Xavier [16:42 - 16:45]: Like, I get to, like, work up to someone. 

Sammi Chaos [16:46 - 16:55]: Yes, exactly. Like, I get to sell. I get to make you look like, you know, a huge monster. Even though, like, I'm also a monster, but, like, a little smaller. 

Kelsey Silva [16:55 - 16:57]: So, like, you're a dainty monster. 

Sammi Chaos [16:57 - 16:59]: Right? Exactly. Like, please. 

Xavier [16:59 - 17:01]: So love that. 

Sammi Chaos [17:04 - 17:31]: But, yeah, like, when I wrestled Tyree Taylor at Focus Pro in Massachusetts, and he's a big dude and I'm usually not the one getting manhandled, you know, so to say, and shit. Like, tables have turned and it's. Now it's the crowd's turn to, you know, have sympathy for me and, like, cheer me on instead of booing me. So. 

Kelsey Silva [17:31 - 17:34]: Yeah. Which is a nice change of pace. 

Sammi Chaos [17:34 - 17:40]: I know. Like, oh, my God, you like me. So. Yeah, it's a whole, like, turnaround. 

Kelsey Silva [17:41 - 17:53]: I love that. Can I, or were you gonna say something? I'm sorry. It's okay. I. I was curious because you, Russ, had this crazy, amazing match with Brother Greatness, and he. Did he also train you? 

Sammi Chaos [17:54 - 17:55]: Yes. 

Kelsey Silva [17:56 - 17:58]: So what? Wow, I love that. What was that like? 

Sammi Chaos [17:59 - 19:16]: Yeah, so he trained me before. Before I went to the fallout shelter in Brooklyn, where I officially. So I used to wake up at like 4 o' clock in the morning to go drive to Queens from Jersey to meet him at a gym that had a ring. And he would. He would train me for like a couple hours before I had to go to my nine to five. And yeah, he. He got me ready for, you know, actual wrestling training. And wrestling him was kind of like coming full circle. And I was like, holy shit. Like, you know, we're no longer half asleep, you know, in Queens right now. And yeah, it was great. I. I loved wrestling him. And, you know, he gave me a lot of. I don't want to say praise, but, like, props, so to say, like. And I was like, oh, my God. I don't take compliments very well. So I'm just like, oh my God. Like, are you sure? Like, it was okay. Anytime you wrestle someone that trained you or one of your coaches, like, it's just 10 times more nerve wracking than anything else. So, yeah, we had a lot of fun. So. 

Kelsey Silva [19:20 - 19:28]: I. Oh, that's so crazy to wake up so early and do something so physical. Like, before Your job. That's, like, very impressive. 

Sammi Chaos [19:29 - 19:32]: Yeah. They're like, sammy, why are you tired? I'm like, don't worry about it. 

Kelsey Silva [19:33 - 19:34]: You wouldn't believe me. 

Sammi Chaos [19:34 - 19:37]: I have to explain it exactly. 

Kelsey Silva [19:37 - 19:40]: You don't know what I'm getting up to in this probably hours. 

Sammi Chaos [19:43 - 19:43]: My time. 

Xavier [19:45 - 20:21]: Speaking of, like, the. The Intergender matches the promos you've been doing recently with Brian Baum, because you guys have an event coming up are nothing short of, like, amazing. They're so funny. This morning, I literally. I sent one to cap, like, to Kelsey, because I was like, this is. This is fabulous, because we are. Are in the talks of having him on the show. Also, where did those, like, vignettes with Brian, like, come from? Like, who. Where did this idea come from? Because it's great. You just, like, show up behind him like the Grim reaper and just, like, mess his day up. It's beautiful stuff. 

Sammi Chaos [20:24 - 20:27]: So glad you guys are enjoying. Oh, my God. 

Kelsey Silva [20:27 - 20:29]: Can't help it. They're so good. 

Sammi Chaos [20:30 - 20:55]: So Brian is one of my favorite people in the entire world right now. We're frenemies and we're feuding, but, yeah, we. I mean, we go back and forth, you know, talking about ideas for show. Yeah. You know, right now, we hate each other. But it's been a lot of fun. It's been a lot of fun going back and forth. You know, we just come. 

Xavier [20:56 - 21:29]: Awesome. What? Like, so that event that you guys have coming, it's like. It's a pride event, which I like. Me and Kelsey, we, like, I always describe our show is for, like, the gals and the gays. I don't know. It's just. It's. Whenever I see, like, an event that is, like, a specifically a pride event that also mixes wrestling, I get so, like, oh, like, cool. Like, this is, for me, like, just because it's just. It's. You know, we're generally not the target. You know, the target audience, but if you think about it, we are. 

Sammi Chaos [21:32 - 21:34]: I mean, anybody is anybody's. 

Xavier [21:34 - 21:35]: Exactly. 

Kelsey Silva [21:35 - 21:35]: So true. 

Xavier [21:36 - 21:49]: But it's so, like, what does it mean for you to, like, to be able to, like, wrestle on shows like that and, like, just kind of, like, show out? Is that, like, is that something you kind of think about, or is it just kind of like another show as previously? 

Sammi Chaos [21:50 - 22:35]: I mean, it's definitely not just another show because it just means so much to everybody, you know, who's on the show and everybody that's involved. And, you know, I think it. You know, it symbolizes so much for everybody. So, you Know, it's pretty much, it's spitting in the face of a lot of certain promotions or, you know, people that won't necessarily book the people that are on the show. And, you know, it's a big, like, middle finger and we love that, love that we have a big middle finger. That's the energy that we always try to emit. Yeah. Just, you know, a big fuck you. And it's always a really fun high energy show. 

Kelsey Silva [22:36 - 22:36]: Yeah. 

Sammi Chaos [22:36 - 22:39]: Oh, my God, it's going to be so much fun. Yeah. 

Kelsey Silva [22:39 - 23:07]: Oh my God. So amazing. And I. That one where he's just walking down the street and he's like, oh, look who it is. And starts beating your ass so funny. And that's like, we say this all the time where it's like, no one will hit you harder than your best friend. Like, you will never have another match like one you have with your friend. And so I just feel like this, it feels so turn. Like this feud. 

Xavier [23:09 - 23:10]: Oh, that's amazing. 

Sammi Chaos [23:10 - 23:16]: I'm wrestle. Yeah. Oh, my God. 

Kelsey Silva [23:16 - 24:25]: I, I also want to talk about. So the character of Sammy Chaos, you had said, is like you times 9,000 and it's like kind of getting to like live out like an exalted version of like high school you, which you're, you're like, I was emo, I was punk, I was like all of that stuff, which again, the emo kids that grew up safe space. And I, I, I just, I think again, it's this, it's so fascinating like as a person with social anxiety where it's like, you are this like, character who like, again, doesn't mind giving the big middle finger will like talk. Your is the, is the harvester of Sorrows. Like, you have this like really almost like punchy energy where it's like I, I can like, I can talk my, I can do my shit and back it up and whatever. I just think it's like, it's almost like, like, does the kind of let you like, express yourself in a different way than like you, you normally feel comfortable or like you've kind of just like learned how to embody that character? Does that make sense? I kind of lost myself. Yeah. 

Sammi Chaos [24:25 - 24:29]: Yeah. Like, I just started saying words. I blacked out. 

Kelsey Silva [24:29 - 24:29]: Yeah. 

Sammi Chaos [24:29 - 25:42]: I was just like, no, it makes it 100 makes sense. It's kind of both because a lot of times, you know, when I'm not semi chaos, I'm just very subdued and I don't want to say docile because that's not the word. I'm not that. But If I'm not. If. Not. If I'm not around people that I don't know, I'm very, like, I'm quiet, I'm in the corner. Like, I'm just observing. But I think once, you know, Sammy Chaos steps to the curtain, like, that all just goes out the window. And it's like I get to be someone complete. Not completely different, but it's like. It's almost like a mask where it's like, okay, safe space now. Like, you know, no one can. No one really knows that I'm just, you know, the emo kid in the corner, like, writing in my journal. Like, it's, like, so silly. But, yeah, it's. Once you step through the curtain, it's like you're a completely different person. And it's like, okay, it's showtime now. And I get to, like, you know, stick the middle finger in children's faces, which is wild. 

Kelsey Silva [25:43 - 25:50]: Yeah, I saw. Yeah, I saw. Your Instagram poster was like, somebody's kids called me an, where are your parents? 

Xavier [25:52 - 25:53]: Where's your keeper? 

Sammi Chaos [25:53 - 26:00]: It was. Yes, I. They were sitting on their lap, which is insane. I'm like, oh, my God. 

Kelsey Silva [26:01 - 26:01]: Oh, my God. 

Sammi Chaos [26:01 - 26:07]: Like, little girls. These little girls in the front row kept calling me an. And I was like, what? 

Kelsey Silva [26:07 - 26:11]: I was like, are you sure that's what you meant to say? That's great. 

Xavier [26:12 - 26:14]: Oh, no, they seem sure I'm bad. 

Kelsey Silva [26:18 - 26:32]: Also. No. Also, one other honorable mention I simply must bring up from your Instagram is you captioned it. You were just, like, beating. I don't even remember whose match it was. We were, like, really laying him out, and it just said, like, what's your favorite movie? This is mine. 

Sammi Chaos [26:36 - 26:37]: That was Brian. 

Kelsey Silva [26:37 - 26:46]: Oh, that was Brian. Oh, my God. I forgot. I was like. Because the caption took me so I was laughing so hard. I was like, that. What's your favorite movie? This one's mine. 

Sammi Chaos [26:46 - 26:47]: This one's mine. 

Kelsey Silva [26:48 - 27:42]: So funny. I love that. I also. Because we're talking about, like, you can just, like, go out and you feel like you have this, like, wrestling Persona, like, mask or whatever. Xavier and I talk about this a lot because I also have such bad social anxiety. But I'll dress, like, insane. Like, I have, like, the crazy makeup, like, huge, insane, weird coats and shoes and whatever. And I'm like, this is kind of, like my mask, like, when I go out, because people will. I'm sure you get this question a lot where it's like, how could you be, like, a performer and a wrestler if you're so socially anxious and it's like. But you get to. You get to, like. But you get to tap into this, like, other part of you. And your gear is so incredible. Like, do you think that also, like, your. Your gear? Because I remember when I briefly met you, I was like, I just have to tell you, your jumpsuit was so incredible. 

Sammi Chaos [27:42 - 27:43]: Yeah. 

Kelsey Silva [27:44 - 28:00]: Carry on with your. With your life, I just had to say. And you also have, like, incredible makeup and, like, the. The jumpsuits and stuff. Like, do you feel like. Because you also kind of. You send inspo. Pictures, I think, and then, like, people will, like, pull it together. 

Sammi Chaos [28:00 - 28:00]: Y. 

Kelsey Silva [28:01 - 28:07]: Like, do you feel like that kind of lends itself, like, to, like, the putting on the mantle aspect of it? 

Sammi Chaos [28:08 - 28:38]: Yeah, it's like. It's almost like a whole ritual, like, getting ready. So it's, you know, it's okay. My gears on. Okay. Putting my makeup on, and it's like, I mean, you know, like, your makeup is gorgeous if your makeup, you know, looks off a certain day, I'm in a. I'm in a little bit of a mood. So, like, if this eye turns out, like, different than the other eye, which has happened, and I go out looking insane, I'm aware of that the entire time. 

Kelsey Silva [28:38 - 28:49]: Yes, I know exactly what you mean. It's like when. When my eyeliner. When they're cousins, not sisters even, I'm like, today is a bad day. 

Sammi Chaos [28:52 - 28:54]: Like, everybody knows everyone's looking at me. Cool. 

Kelsey Silva [28:55 - 29:01]: And then meanwhile, like, you're, like, literally throwing girls, like, across the ring and whatever, and you're like, everyone knows my eyeshadow. 

Sammi Chaos [29:05 - 29:07]: All they're gonna say is that my eyeshadow doesn't match. 

Xavier [29:09 - 29:11]: Like, flinging humans. But. 

Sammi Chaos [29:13 - 29:15]: Never mind. Never mind all that. 

Kelsey Silva [29:16 - 29:29]: Never mind all that. Oh, my God. I so get that. And I. I just. I love your gear, and I know you have that one. You call it the Bam Bam look, where it's, like, the flames and stuff. And you. You're an Asbury park girl, right? 

Sammi Chaos [29:29 - 29:31]: Yes. Love that. 

Kelsey Silva [29:31 - 29:44]: Because we're Jersey girls. Xavier lives in Philly now, but we're Jersey girls. So, yes, in my heart, Xavier will always be a Jersey girl at Harp. Oh, so then the Mecca was so close then. Because for me, it's, like, 20 minutes. Love that. 

Sammi Chaos [29:44 - 29:48]: Yeah. Yeah. That's why I was there. I was like, oh, I'm gonna enjoy a show. 

Kelsey Silva [29:48 - 29:50]: And then they were like, this show's gonna enjoy you. 

Sammi Chaos [29:52 - 30:02]: That's why, like, I had no makeup on. Like, there was no time. I was like, oh, can you, like, push the match back So I have time to, like, look like a insane person. They're like, no, like, cool. 

Kelsey Silva [30:03 - 30:06]: Okay, good. Great. Glad I asked. 

Sammi Chaos [30:06 - 30:08]: This is what you're getting, guys. Sorry. 

Kelsey Silva [30:08 - 30:14]: Like, oh, my God, that's so funny. I. Oh, no, I lost my question. 

Xavier [30:15 - 30:17]: I have one if you're good. 

Kelsey Silva [30:17 - 30:17]: Okay, go ahead. 

Xavier [30:17 - 31:03]: I'm curious because you mentioned earlier that you do, like, the nine to five and you're wrestling on the weekends and I again, like, look, following you, like, you are booked and busy and then talking to, like, wrestlers. Like, that grind is, like, is brutal. Like, is that something for some wrestlers, they, like, enjoy it. For some wrestlers, that's the worst part of their, like, what. How do. How do you handle that? Because that is non stop and it's also very physically demanding. So, like, and I imagine as you get busier or as you get, like, you know, more popular, more out there, like, it's the. Running them both is going to be like, crazy for a while. So, like, how are you? How are you doing this? Do you enjoy it? 

Sammi Chaos [31:04 - 31:06]: He said, are you okay? 

Kelsey Silva [31:07 - 31:09]: It's actually an intervention. 

Sammi Chaos [31:10 - 31:11]: Checking on your friends. 

Xavier [31:11 - 31:11]: All right. 

Sammi Chaos [31:17 - 32:05]: You know, I love it to a degree, but I also love sleep. But I. From when I was like, super young, I wanted to be like a rock star. Like I said, rock star life. I want to be on a tour bus. I want to be touring. Like, I want to be on a stage in front of millions of people. Even though, like, I sit in my car outside the grocery store. It's right. So, yeah, I love it. It's everything I've always wanted. And I would totally understand, like, why people don't, you know, enjoy it. But. Yeah, I mean, you know, Monday mornings are rough, but. Yeah, Monday mornings are rough, but that's what ibuprofen and the heating pad is for. 

Xavier [32:06 - 32:07]: Amen. 

Sammi Chaos [32:09 - 32:30]: You know, it's. Yeah, no, I love it. I hope to just keep getting busier and to just keep being booked and busy and go to new places that, you know, haven't heard of me yet and, you know, that's it. And to keep doing podcasts to get my name even more out there, all that fun stuff. I love it. I love it. 

Kelsey Silva [32:32 - 32:55]: Is there like a. This is kind of like a jump. But is there, like, when you are, like, wrestling, you're going to a show, is there like a specific wrestler who, like, if you see their name on the card, you're like, oh, yeah, like, I get to be like, I'm gonna be in the building with this person. I love to watch this person work Or I love to be in the locker room with them. Like, is there a specific wrestler that you see their name and you're like, word. 

Sammi Chaos [32:56 - 33:31]: Listen, anytime I see a card and I know one person, I'm like, yes. I'm like, I'm gonna try really hard not to follow you around like a puppy. But, like, no, I. You know, I've gotten to be in some, like, insane locker rooms, but anytime I get to share a locker room with, like, Masha or my tag partner, Caitlin Marie, who lives in North Carolina, like, I. Anytime I see women that, like, I know and love, I'm like, yes, Amazing. 

Kelsey Silva [33:31 - 33:39]: So I love that. I also love the tag team name of Survival of the Thickest. It would be remiss of me not to mention it because it is so iconic. 

Sammi Chaos [33:40 - 33:40]: Yes. 

Kelsey Silva [33:40 - 34:07]: Survival of the thing is. And also I. The. I was looking at your merch, which, by the way, please check out Sammy Chaos's merch, because it's also so fierce. That pink skull. I ordered one because my water bottle has a lot of, like, skulls and stuff. So it's like, the pink skull is perfect. So please, everyone, check out Sammy Chaos's merch. You will be so enthralled and happy. But I love the merch because it says it's the survival, the thickest, and on the back, it's the butt stuff and pain. 

Xavier [34:08 - 34:08]: So good. 

Kelsey Silva [34:09 - 34:17]: I was such a. Because you were like, that's us. Like, you're butt stuff and I'm pain. And I was like, that's us. Like, he's not. 

Xavier [34:18 - 34:22]: No, literally, though. That's so funny. 

Sammi Chaos [34:22 - 34:29]: That was supposed to. That's our secondary team name for the not so family friendly shows, but. 

Kelsey Silva [34:31 - 34:36]: And you just get. You get right to the point. And I don't want to explain it. It explains itself. 

Sammi Chaos [34:39 - 34:43]: If I have to explain it, it's not for you exactly, period. 

Kelsey Silva [34:43 - 34:44]: 100. 

Sammi Chaos [34:45 - 34:46]: Oh, my God. 

Kelsey Silva [34:46 - 34:52]: Do you have. Do you have any other questions? Oh, I feel like I could. I, like, just blah, blah, blah all night, but you. 

Xavier [34:54 - 35:11]: Is there, like, somebody. Because you're always talking about, like, wanting to, like, get better, learn from. Is there somebody, like, you get in the ring with and you leave every time? You're like, ah, I got better because of that. Like, every single. Like, is there somebody like that consistently, like, pushes you in the ring? 

Sammi Chaos [35:11 - 35:17]: Oh. Oh, my God. I mean, one of my coaches, Prince Ahmed, who is also at that show. 

Kelsey Silva [35:17 - 35:17]: Yes. 

Xavier [35:17 - 35:18]: Amazing. Yeah. 

Sammi Chaos [35:19 - 36:14]: Yes. He. He's like. He's the sweetest, scariest person I've ever met in my life. He so he does all that, like, crazy submission stuff. And. And, you know, when me and Brian get in the ring, we are larger people, so we're like, oh, are you gonna modify anything? And he's like, no, this is. You're gonna do it. And I was more like, okay. Like, he pushes us to do exactly what everybody else is doing. So he doesn't. Yeah. He's like, you're not gonna wrestle as, like, a bigger person today. You're wrestling as a wrestler. Like, you're gonna do. Yeah. You're gonna do what Rey Mysterio is doing, and you're gonna, like, you know, do all this stuff. And I was like, okay. He was like, even if you think you can't do it, like, you're just gonna do it. And he doesn't give you, like, a second to, like, second guess yourself. He goes, go. That's all he said, Go, go, go. I'm like, oh, my God. 

Kelsey Silva [36:14 - 36:15]: Oh, my God. 

Xavier [36:15 - 36:17]: Don't think, just do. Don't think. 

Sammi Chaos [36:17 - 36:22]: Exactly. He said, stop thinking, don't think. Just do it. I'm like, oh, my God. Okay. 

Kelsey Silva [36:23 - 36:24]: Oh, my God. I'd be so scared. 

Sammi Chaos [36:25 - 36:27]: About 70% of the time, you get it. 

Kelsey Silva [36:29 - 36:54]: And I don't want that 30%. We don't talk. Do you. Because you have said, too. Like, you kind of. You can have, like, an intimidating presence. Is it. This is kind of, like, silly, but is it intimidating to be intimidating? Like, are you. Do you get, like, intimidated by it, or is it, like, a superpower where it's like, you can tap in because you're like, I'm gonna walk in here, and everyone's gonna be like. 

Sammi Chaos [36:55 - 36:55]: Like, whoa. 

Kelsey Silva [36:56 - 37:00]: Or. Or is it, like, kind of, like, a little bit intimidating? 

Sammi Chaos [37:01 - 37:16]: I guess it depends where I'm walking into. I think it's a lot of funny that a lot of people that I'm now super good friends with, they're like, oh, my God. When. When we first met you, like, we thought you were a. Because it's like, I stand there with. 

Kelsey Silva [37:16 - 37:19]: My life, this story of our lives. 

Sammi Chaos [37:20 - 37:25]: Like, little do they know that, like, my resting face is just social anxiety face. 

Kelsey Silva [37:26 - 37:26]: Yes. 

Xavier [37:27 - 37:29]: I'm just holding on to the earth. 

Kelsey Silva [37:29 - 37:32]: Like, I'm just holding on to the earth. 

Sammi Chaos [37:32 - 37:36]: So, like, I'm just not to spin out of control. Like, yeah. 

Kelsey Silva [37:36 - 37:41]: I am just processing gravity and converting oxygen to carbon dioxide. 

Xavier [37:41 - 37:43]: I'm breathing on manual. All right. 

Sammi Chaos [37:46 - 37:49]: I'm reminding myself. In through my nose, out through my mouth. 

Kelsey Silva [37:49 - 37:50]: Out through my mouth. 

Sammi Chaos [37:52 - 38:07]: No, I. But sometimes I love it because then it's like, I love when people are afraid to talk to me, but then they do talk to me and they're like, oh, like, you're a cinnamon bun. Like, you're a. Like, so. So that's a lot of fun for me. I love that. 

Kelsey Silva [38:07 - 38:23]: Yeah. Like, the. For some reason, I almost said the proof is in the pudding, but it's not really that. It's like. It's just like, you know, the. The outside's, like, don't necessarily match the insides, but the insides are so delightful. Yeah, I love that. 

Sammi Chaos [38:23 - 38:24]: We're delightful. 

Kelsey Silva [38:24 - 38:26]: Yeah, I love that. 

Xavier [38:26 - 38:27]: That's amazing. 

Kelsey Silva [38:28 - 38:29]: Anything else, Xavier? 

Xavier [38:29 - 38:30]: Oh, you can. 

Kelsey Silva [38:30 - 38:32]: I feel like I really. I feel like I really. 

Xavier [38:32 - 38:33]: Girl, I know you, fam. 

Kelsey Silva [38:35 - 38:36]: I was just so excited. 

Xavier [38:36 - 38:39]: We've been friends since we were, like, 12, so. 

Sammi Chaos [38:39 - 38:42]: Oh, my God, I love that. Yeah. 

Kelsey Silva [38:42 - 38:51]: Since the flood. Since the flood. I just, like, I feel like I had so many. 

Sammi Chaos [38:52 - 38:53]: What's the next show you guys are going to? 

Kelsey Silva [38:55 - 39:00]: We're hoping to go. I was hoping to go to the July 19th Mecca, right? 

Xavier [39:00 - 39:02]: Yeah, it's respect. Yeah. 

Kelsey Silva [39:02 - 39:39]: Yeah. My. But my sister is having a baby, and that is. Yeah, damn. That is her. Her due date. So I, I. And I'm supposed to be there to, like, because she has another child, so I'm supposed to take the other child elsewhere, like, roles. But I was like, hopefully. Hopefully I can be there for that show, though, because it's so. I just also love the Mecca. Like, I just think we're having a great time, so I just love going there because everyone is so fun and so nice and, like, just the coolest. Every time I go there, I'm like, I just met the coolest people I've ever met my life. Like, I don't know, like, how that happened, but. 

Xavier [39:39 - 39:48]: And the crowd is so funny. I don't know what it is. Like, maybe it's just because, like, we also grew up around, like, and these are our people, but, like, they're so funny. 

Kelsey Silva [39:48 - 40:37]: Like, yeah, I. Yeah, love to. But I'm also hoping to go to, like, more New York shows, too, because, like, we live so close, like, to New York, so. But, yeah, it's just, like, because he lives in Philly, so sometimes it's like, me and my social anxiety. Sometimes I'm afraid to go by myself. I'm like, usually I love to have, like, a little buddy, especially because I'm new to wrestling, so I. Sometimes I'm there, I'm like, like, what's happening? Like, yeah, like, what do I do? But, yeah, like, the Mecca. I just Now I feel so comfortable there because everyone is just the nicest people I've ever met. So. But, yeah, hopefully we'll be there. Yeah, I think I was, like. I think I had, like, more questions, but I'm like. So just like. I was so happy to just, like, have this conversation that they kind of flew out of my brain. 

Sammi Chaos [40:37 - 40:39]: But we're just happy to be here. Yeah. 

Xavier [40:39 - 40:40]: Always. 

Sammi Chaos [40:41 - 40:41]: Always. 

Xavier [40:42 - 40:50]: That's. That's great. What is, like, one thing about indie wrestling? Like, specifically that? Like, you love. 

Sammi Chaos [40:53 - 41:33]: One thing about indie. I. Not everybody looks the same. I think that I. I love that. No one. Yeah. Because you see a lot of that. And, you know, nxt, nxt. It. Not so much in aew, but, like, kind of, especially with the women. It's like everyone looks exactly the same. And if you go to the Indies and it's like, oh, my God, what are these, like, characters? What are these gimmicks? Like, right? Like, oh, my God, like, it. Yeah. It's like, who am I wrestling? Oh, my God, it's a demon today. Tomorrow is an angel. It's a princess. Like, yeah. 

Xavier [41:35 - 41:45]: Taz used to describe, like, ECW as the, like, the land of misfit toys. I feel like it's just kind of like taking that philosophy and just like, just applying it everywhere, you know? 

Sammi Chaos [41:46 - 41:47]: Everywhere. That's the Mecca. 

Kelsey Silva [41:49 - 42:28]: So true. And it is true, because I guess in. And I've never noticed that before you said that. So thank you for my education, but I feel like, in, like, perfect, like, WWE women's division now, like, or even, you know, in the 90s when we're watching, like, attitude area, a lot of them, like, are just, like. Especially the wrestling nowadays. A lot of just names. It's a lot of, like, this is my name. This is what I do. And, like, yeah, there are a lot of, like. Like, women are really exploring gimmicks, like, in the Indies, I feel. And I love that because also, like, sometimes I do just love a gimmick. Like, I love when people just lean into a character. Influences. Yes. 

Sammi Chaos [42:28 - 42:28]: I just. 

Kelsey Silva [42:30 - 42:36]: And I love that. And I. I've never. How crazy. I really have not noticed that before. That's such a good point. 

Sammi Chaos [42:36 - 42:57]: Yeah. Yeah. I think there's a lot more freedom to just explore, you know, anything that you want to do. Anything you want to create what entrance, you know, you want to do today as opposed to tomorrow. Like, tomorrow wear pink, I guess. Like, it's like, a whole thing. And no one can tell me anything because I'm still Sammy Chaos. So it's yeah. 

Kelsey Silva [42:59 - 43:01]: And I. Go ahead. 

Xavier [43:01 - 43:28]: No, I was going to say, do you think, like, we'll, like, inner gender wrestling will get to like a point where it has kind of like a larger platform? Because I like, you know, people have their thoughts about it, but. But, you know, at the end of the day, it's all a show, so. So, like, do you feel like you will ever get to that point? Would you like it to get to that point, but just kind of your thoughts on that? Just because I know you love it so much. 

Sammi Chaos [43:29 - 43:52]: Yeah. I mean, I feel like there's always going to be a stigma about it, you know, for till the end of time, but I would love to see it grow. You know, there's. I love when I see glimpses of it, like, on a raw where it's like, Raya Ripley and like, whoever the hell and, you know, they'll give us teases of it. And it's like every once in a while I'm like, come on. 

Xavier [43:52 - 43:54]: Like, yeah, yeah. 

Sammi Chaos [43:55 - 44:01]: Ripley and Finn Balor, like, come on. Just one time. One time, like, oh. 

Xavier [44:01 - 44:35]: Because, you know, she would have a. I've. I. And she is also like, outspoken about, like, she wants to wrestle the dudes. Like, she's like, she also wants to get in there and like, beat up. Like, she's funny. No. Oh, she absolutely. And like, her husband, like, talked about like, in an interview or whatever, where she put him in like a chokehold or whatever, and he was like, it was the worst chokehold, like, I've ever been in. Like. And that woman was not gonna give up. Like, it's amazing. So. But I know I would love to see. I just think, like, if we're putting on a show, like, we're putting on a show, like, you know, like. Right. 

Kelsey Silva [44:36 - 44:37]: Yeah. 

Sammi Chaos [44:38 - 44:43]: Yeah. And I think the beautiful part about the elite too, because we can do all that stuff. So. 

Kelsey Silva [44:43 - 44:44]: Yeah. 

Sammi Chaos [44:44 - 44:45]: Yes. 

Kelsey Silva [44:45 - 44:56]: Yeah. And I think like, you, because you had said that it's not for everyone and you understand why, but you enjoy it. And I think it's too. It's like, you don't have to do it if you don't want to. Like, but if you are willing and able, like, I think why not? 

Sammi Chaos [44:56 - 45:07]: But yeah, I'm not forcing anyone to do it or watch it. So, like, oh, my God, I love that. Wow. 

Xavier [45:09 - 45:14]: So what do you have coming up? Because I know we talked about your book and busy. What do you got? What's. What's on the agenda? 

Sammi Chaos [45:15 - 45:16]: What day is. 

Xavier [45:18 - 45:22]: Is the 17th of June. Such a blur. 

Sammi Chaos [45:23 - 45:25]: What year? No, yeah. 

Kelsey Silva [45:25 - 45:28]: Don't. Yeah, don't tell me what year it is. It'll make me spiral. 

Sammi Chaos [45:28 - 45:41]: Yeah, please. This weekend, the 21st, I have jobber Slam Battle Club in Brooklyn, and then the pride show for Battle Club is the very next day, the 22nd. So. 

Xavier [45:42 - 45:43]: Yeah, very nice. 

Sammi Chaos [45:44 - 45:46]: It's going to be a whirlwind of a weekend. 

Xavier [45:48 - 45:59]: I will definitely be glued to the. I'm going camping, so I won't be able to, like, attend, but I'm definitely going to be glued to figuring it out. Oh, yeah, I know. I like to, like, fuck off and not be near people. 

Kelsey Silva [46:00 - 46:01]: He's. 

Xavier [46:02 - 46:04]: Yeah, I really do. I really love you. 

Sammi Chaos [46:04 - 46:05]: Really do. 

Kelsey Silva [46:07 - 46:08]: Just go. Go dark. 

Sammi Chaos [46:09 - 46:13]: Listen, that's how I'm gonna start explaining my extracurriculars. I just like to off. 

Kelsey Silva [46:13 - 46:17]: Okay. Amazing, by the way. 

Xavier [46:19 - 46:49]: But before I wrap this up, thank you so much for coming on. We really, really appreciate. It's been a great conversation and hopefully now that, like, we know you're local, we'll. We'll take this on the road, I think. Yeah, but. All right, guys, thank you so much for listening to another edition of the new to wrestling podcast After Dark for Kelsey and Sammy Chaos. I am Xavier. We will catch you on the next one. 

Sammi Chaos [46:50 - 46:51]: Thank you there. 

Kelsey Silva [46:51 - 46:52]: Bye. 

Sammi Chaos [46:56 - 47:08]: Sam.