New to Wrestling Podcast
Lifelong wrestling fan takes his best friend through, the joys, the action, and all the drama that is professional wrestling! Starting with The Attitude Era and Beyond!
New to Wrestling Podcast
Dr. Sleep Anthony Gangone on Horror, Reinvention, Making Wrestling Uncomfortable & the Austin Aries Dream Match
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Viewer discretion is advised—because this week, Dr. Sleep is in the building.
We’re joined by Anthony Gangone, one of the most versatile and compelling performers on the independent wrestling scene. Whether you know him from House of Glory, CZW, The Mecca, Respect Wrestling, his no ropes matches, his championship runs, or his current evolution as Dr. Sleep, Anthony has built a career on refusing to be put in one box.
In this conversation, Anthony talks about staying connected to wrestling from childhood, building a career through persistence, and why the current Dr. Sleep version of himself feels like the most complete version yet. We get into his horror influences, the psychology behind making an audience uncomfortable, the mandible claw, submissions, brawling, and why sometimes putting someone to sleep can be a peaceful experience. Naturally, Kelsey handles this information in the most Kelsey way possible.
We also talk about Anthony’s ability to adapt to different promotions and audiences, his time as a cornerstone for multiple independent companies, his relationship with Amazing Red, the importance of no ropes matches, intergender wrestling, and what it means to become a veteran presence in locker rooms without necessarily setting out to be one.
Plus, Anthony previews his upcoming Respect Wrestling main event against Austin Aries, a match he describes as one of the only true dream matches he has ever wanted. We discuss Aries’ influence, what makes Ray Sanchez such a strong voice in wrestling, and why Respect has become such an exciting new space in the independent scene.
In this episode:
- Anthony Gangone explains how the Dr. Sleep character came together
- We talk horror movies, unsettling characters, and finding inspiration outside of wrestling
- Anthony breaks down what it means to be a true hybrid wrestler
- Kelsey asks about the mandible claw and immediately regrets understanding how it works
- We discuss brawling, submissions, and why discomfort is such a powerful tool in wrestling
- Anthony reflects on being a reliable veteran presence across multiple independent promotions
- We talk House of Glory, CZW, The Mecca, Respect Wrestling, and the changing indie landscape
- Anthony looks back on his no ropes matches and his history with Amazing Red
- We discuss intergender wrestling, realism, and the “final girl” energy of Dr. Sleep
- Anthony previews his Respect Wrestling title defense against Austin Aries
- We get into support systems, confidence, V for Vendetta, They Live, and why Dr. Sleep probably cannot be killed
This is a conversation about longevity, reinvention, horror, professionalism, and the strange peace that comes after someone puts you to sleep.
Anthony Gangone is not interested in doing the same thing twice.
And Dr. Sleep is only getting started.
The New To Wrestling Podcast follows two friends who enjoy wrestling but are in different stages of their fandom. Xavier Cruz serves as your guide through generations of professional wrestling while Kelsey Silva experiences these matches for the first time. Climb into the ring weekly to relive the famous matches beginning with the Attitude Era!
Viewer discretion is advised.
SPEAKER_04Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition to the Nuda Wrestling Podcast After Dark. I am a little flustered, which is why I just realized I said hello and not good evening, which is always how I start. I'm a little flustered by our guest today because he has been everywhere, done almost everything you can think of in the independent scene, plus more. I mean, just there's a lot of words to describe this person. I mean, an absolute savant in wrestling offensive, um, an incredible. Like, if you want a clinic on submissions, like this is the person to study. I mean, let's just get right into it because I don't, I just want to get right into the meat. But guys, please, please, please, it is the highest with the highest honor and respect, we welcome Anthony Gangone, Dr. Sleep, to the show today. Thank you so much for coming.
SPEAKER_01Hello, hello, and thank you for that introduction. Probably the best one I've ever had. So appreciate that.
SPEAKER_00And you you've done a you've done a few.
SPEAKER_04I was gonna say, and you've done a lot of interviews, so I will take that and deposit that in the bank.
SPEAKER_03Um thank you.
SPEAKER_04Also, I am such a huge fan of turtlenecks, so I really appreciate your your like commitment to the craft of the turtleneck means everything to me.
SPEAKER_01I appreciate that, especially during the summer. People don't really like it, they say uh, oh, you're it's too hot out there for that, but I feel very comfortable in it, so I appreciate that. Thanks.
SPEAKER_04And protect the neck, always, yes, always protect the neck.
SPEAKER_01There's some vampires out there, so yeah, girl, and that's a word.
SPEAKER_04They're not speak on that, but um so you have said in many interviews previously that your origin story into wrestling is not that interesting. You're like, I watched personal wrestling and I never gave up on it, and I just have always been doing this. But I to me, what is interesting about it, what makes it such an interesting story, is the fact that you never gave up on it. We hear so many times, like, I kind of like dipped out around the 2000s, I kind of like meh, like whatever. But somehow you very persistently like, no, I just never gave up on it. I was always a fan, even when my friends started dropping off, I always stayed committed to it. So, how, and you just always knew you wanted to be a professional wrestler. How does like that transition occur? Like, from I've just like never gave up on it as a fan, and now I'm really in the space where because you debuted, I think, in 2013.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So, like now, I mean, like you're in such a beautiful place in your career, like after this like really lovely chunk of time. Like, how do you think that like that transition from being a very persistent fan has like aided you in being just a very persistent, like solid wrestler in your career?
SPEAKER_01Um, I that is one way of looking at it, I think. Um, maybe I haven't thought of that uh myself, but I I I I don't know. It's just uh you know, you you have wrestlers on and and and they talk about their story, and a lot of them they've been a fan for since they were a kid, and that's why I don't find it very interesting. But I I guess I do understand your point that I never really gave up on it, and I never just stopped watching, and I maybe don't watch as much as I used to, and you know, because I used to watch everything that was on TV, things from Japan, things from Mexico, so everything. And I think uh yeah, I mean, clearly I've been in the business a long time, so that that uh persistent nature is definitely uh ingrained in me. So I I guess in a way you could look at it uh from the fan to being a wrestler, that transition, uh being persistent and and not giving up, I guess, is an attribute that would be uh valuable in in this kind of uh line of work.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I love that. And especially too, it's you have this great versatility in terms of like you're so persistent in terms of like longevity in the career at this time, but like you've changed so many times. Like you've had so many different iterations. And I love that because we talk a lot about on the show how like there are so many characters who like could put themselves in a box, but somehow they give themselves so much motion, like in the wrestling business. And I feel like you are such a great example of that, where it's not like you're constantly reinventing the wheel, but it's like you are constantly reinventing like this image, this style. And so, how did you get into Dr. Sleep, like this iteration of Anthony Gangone?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, for me, a lot of it is to, you know, I go to these shows and and you see a lot of the same people in the audience throughout my career, and I always think about them, and I don't want to be boring, I don't want to do the same thing over and over again, and and I want them to be excited every time they see me, even if they've seen me for 10 plus years. So um obviously I've had uh a few versions of myself, and um this version of me, I think is the most complete version. Uh I obviously have some horror influences and I'm big, I'm a big horror fan, and uh a lot of people get inspiration from wrestling, and I myself have have done that as well, but nowadays it's a lot more from other medium, uh, including horror. And uh I think this is the most me that people get to see uh outside of uh you know real life, whatever that means.
SPEAKER_00That's it's interesting, and uh to talk about like seeing the same fans like week over week, you have um uh through your work found yourself um the cornerstone of quite a few organizations where you've um uh really like had mainstay like stretches, um, where like Titan, CCW, um, and even now, um like with respect, um, what does it kind of mean to you to be like in those positions? Um, especially if somebody's like a company's like starting out and they're like kind of you know selecting what that what their company's gonna look like, what does it mean to you to be like chosen it for that?
SPEAKER_01Uh so especially at this point in my career, I think um if I could say some nice things about myself, uh I think that it does say a lot about me that doing this 10 plus years and people still want to invest their opportunities and time and show space to me. And for me, it means a lot uh because it means that I'm still a valuable asset to these companies. And and you know, doing it 10 plus years now, it's it's like okay, I'm still on the right track. And I don't want to be, I always want to be better than I was yesterday, and I feel like I am um most times and not. So uh I'm very proud of that aspect of all this. And yeah, I mean, I'm just a reliable uh wrestler that you know, whatever you need I can make happen with a smile and you know that whole professional thing.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it's so interesting you say that too, because um, I have a quote from you and it was so great. I love this. And it was just because I did something two weeks ago doesn't mean I'm gonna do any of that shit again. I like to be a hybrid wrestler. So, what does that mean by your standard, like by your definition in your own words, like what does that mean, being a hybrid wrestler?
SPEAKER_01So I don't like to be put into a box. Um, wrestling very much is about being put into a box. And uh I've heard before, and this this can be accurate, of course, but I've heard before you have to kind of be a uh wrestler on a fifth grade level to the audience. And for me, uh I find that to be kind of boring. So as far as being a hybrid wrestler, I really can do anything. Um, I may not be the quality of high flyer of like uh Mark Quinn or Ricochet, but I can fly if I need to. I can also wrestle uh chain wrestle if I need to, or be submission-based, or be a really great brawler, and I can be very violent if I want to be, or I can be very fun, and uh that's kind of how I see myself is that I can really do anything, and it and it can be entertaining uh for my audience.
SPEAKER_04And I mean it's working for you. Thank you, thank you. And like so, oh go ahead. Oh no, go ahead, though.
SPEAKER_00I was just gonna say, like, if they're oh, we're doing it.
SPEAKER_04All right, oh my god, we've never done that. Go ahead.
SPEAKER_00Um, no, I was gonna ask, like, do you find that different promotions see certain sides more? Um, or and do you have fun with that? Um because I I imagine it's if you're you know, uh, I'm like really close to CZW, um, but Kelsey's uh really close to like the Mecca and those kind of like shows. Do you find it fun to kind of like play differently to those uh like promotions? Or is it just kind of like you show up and you feel what they're giving you?
SPEAKER_01Um I would say that I am very aware of my environment. So uh I definitely think I have a mindset that I go into every show. Maybe CZW would be a bit more violent. Um maybe at the Mecca, depending on which show is there, maybe there's a bit more um scientific wrestling to it. But uh yeah, I I I uh I definitely know what I'm going into for every promotion and and the crowd. And on my end, um I try my best to at least watch one match before I go out there, and that kind of tells me what I need to be that day. I love that.
SPEAKER_04I love that, and I feel like um watching the match, like even if it's just one, it like really can tell you a lot. Like it can tell you like almost everything that you need to know. Like, so that that is very interesting. I love that. I was gonna ask before, like, because you are such a versatile wrestler, there's that saying, like, jack of all trades, master of none. But I feel like if someone were to say, like jack of all trades, or like you were to say, like jack of all trades, but master of this, like what would you consider is like either something you really love to do in wrestling, like a style, or like something you consider like I this is like really my sweet spot.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think uh so I think I'm really good at all of it, but uh, if I were to pick one, and you are if I were to pick one, I think I for some reason really enjoy uh brawling. So yes, I get uh very excited when it comes to brawl. Actually, I currently spoil black eye. Oh my god, and uh that was a lot of fun, and everyone's asking about it, and it's like I feel way better than I look, so uh I enjoy it. That's great.
SPEAKER_04That's funny because I so I just started jujitsu not that long ago, and I get like covered in bruises, and like people be like, Are you okay? And I'm like, I've never been better. Like, I this is the coolest shit that's ever happened to me. Like, I which is twisted, but like the one girl at the studio was like, You are very interesting, like very weird person.
SPEAKER_01Because I get the same thing, so it you're a good company.
SPEAKER_04Thank God, and I knew I would be an amen. I also am dying to know because I'm a I don't it this is more like a this is just me kind of being like a little fangirl for just a second, because Dr. Sleep, I'm assuming is a reference kind of to Dr. Kavorkian a little bit because you're doing submissions where you're putting people to sleep. And I just love the way that this kind of, and I'm assuming you do this on purpose, and I'm not trying to put words into your mouth, but I'm you have this way of talking about submissions too, where you're like, yeah, like I just do it, and I'm sure that they feel a lot of peace, like once the lights go out. Like you have that kind of energy that he has, like complimentary, like where it's like, but I was doing like a good thing, like I'm helping people be at peace. Like, is that intentional?
SPEAKER_01Uh yes, it is intentional. Um what I would say to that is uh, you know, when it when it comes to certain kinds of pain, uh it could also be very pleasurable. That's what I'm really going for. So it may hurt just a little bit, but once you're out, it's it's very, very peaceful.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and I'm sure they're thinking of you as they're they're passing out, and they're just like I hope so.
SPEAKER_01I really, I really like to get into that mind. Actually, it's been working because uh a few people have been saying that they've been seeing me in their dreams, and I'm so happy about that. I love it.
SPEAKER_04The inceptioning is working, right? Well, I I can't wait to see you in the in the dream world. I'll let you know. Okay, please, please.
SPEAKER_00Um, I wanted to ask about the um your usage of the mandible claw because um in our show we started watching like WWF at the time um in like 1996, which is right around the time mankind shows up, and Kelsey, um I will like remember this forever, just had such a like visceral reaction to that move. Um and every time like thereafter, like she would see it, it was just it I still yeah, shakes, shivers, like um, it's a whole thing. So, like what um like what made you select that move? Is it because of that like visceral reaction that people get? Um, because it is like you know, it when you think about it, you're like, ah, his fingers are going in there. Uh very basic. So um it just was that a like a conscious choice? Um, or is it just that like I liked the move, I fell into it? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, well, I was actually fighting against having to do the move for a while because I did not want to necessarily want that connection. But I mean, if we're being honest, it it just works. So uh I I have put it into my move set, and it's been very uh very good for me. And what I would say to that is um you do want to kind of look at the past and see what worked and kind of what maybe fits you, and clearly the Manduel Claw was was one that does that. And for me, when the thing about wrestling and and fans and when they're watching, um human emotion has always been the same since we existed. So there's anger, there's fear, there's happiness, all that, right? And for me, what I try to um sell is being uncomfortable, and there's nothing like having someone put their fingers in your mouth to have that sudden panic of can I breathe? What's going on? His fingers are in my mouth right now, what am I gonna do? And I think that uncomfortable nature really helps Dr. Sleep out.
SPEAKER_04For sure. And I would say if anyone here is new to wrestling like me, the mandible claw is not like down your fingers down your throat, it's pressing on the soft palate under your tongue, which is so disturbing. Like that's crazy. Yeah, like I remember when I first saw that, and Xavier told, I was like, what is he doing? What is he doing? I don't like that. But also part of that is because God bless McFoley in every realm. But I know he hasn't washed that shit. I know that is so dirty, and then also you're putting that in my mouth. Like, I that's disrespectful on another level. But this the it's the crunching of the it's the pinching of the jaw on the palate that is actually really crazy that I don't think people understand. So if you don't know that, that's really what it is, and it's I would pass out from fear immediately. Like I would get so scared. So I feel like it absolutely makes sense for your character, but I understand wanting to not like always be because that's like what you said earlier. You try not to always draw inspiration from wrestling because you just don't want to be like just another wrestler. And I actually you had said this quote way back in the day from there was a very short documentary about you, um, which was fantastic. Um, but you had said you try to draw not to draw inspiration from wrestling, um, and you try to draw a lot of inspo from real world, including film and comics, which obviously you still feel that way. Um so what like what today is inspiring Dr. Sleep Anthony Gangone? Like, what is in like the cultural zeitgeist or just in the real world or anything that is inspiring you today?
SPEAKER_01Um, what I would say is um it's very much in the horror realm. So there's you know, there's a little bit of um weapons in there, there's art of the clowns in there, there's some blasts from the past with like Freddie Krueger and uh Pinhead. So um a lot of that goes into uh the uh the version of Dr. Sleep that you see today. And um, yeah, I I just I want to be interesting, and I feel like uh some of those influences are more have more dimension than just I have a knife and I'm gonna kill you. So yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01My fingers are my knives, by the way.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I would I would feel that way as well if I was fighting you. Um did you have something? Sorry.
SPEAKER_00It's gonna be on a whole different like tangent if you or want to stay on the topic.
SPEAKER_04Okay, I was gonna say, do you um do you read a lot? Because you have like the most you have a very beautiful, eloquent use of vocabulary that I that is lovely.
SPEAKER_01Oh um, I don't read as much as I would like. So yes. Uh I wish I had more time to read, but uh mostly I'm in the car and reading uh while driving is probably not the best idea. And we thank you for that. I I I appreciate that though. Thank you. I'm uh I'm a terrible texter. Uh me too. Lots of typos, but as far as speaking, I'm very good. Yes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but text is you know, point, make it fast, you know? Yeah, yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and obviously the speaking helps you so much in this business, so and it again really shows.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's uh surprisingly, it's a it's a difficult thing to uh to have uh in wrestling, and and it takes a while to kind of master, and some of us uh are able to uh speak a certain way and and and really connect to the audience. But uh I appreciate that. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Um I wanted to ask because you've had um some pretty interesting like uh kind of like trainer student relationships and also.
SPEAKER_01be on the inverse um having like uh people who started like their own promotion um so i wanted to ask a kind of like do you see like a through line from like that whole arc with like amazing red coming from like you know hog learning under him to like having a whole rivalry with him to then being his partner if you want to just comment on like what that experience was like and also um I want to segue into respect from there um so yeah if you want to just like take a couple of minutes talk about that uh yeah I mean uh I was there for eight years he was a solid trainer when it came to um the stuff in the ring obviously he's a very inventive uh person as well who's influenced wrestling since you know whatever 2000 2001 is when when you know that kind of whole low-key red New York style kind of started become big uh then you know to to to face him in probably one of the best matches of both our careers in that no ropes match um and to tell that story and if you were there at the time at House of Glory which is a lot different now um you remember those matches because of the story and and how brutal they were but how it was very much something you would see on TV. Right and it's probably I'm not very satisfied with a lot of my matches but I would say that uh there's been maybe five matches I've been happy with and the uh that no ropes match was is one of them and and then you know obviously we teamed and that didn't go well but other than that uh you know it it was uh definitely you gotta take every experience in wrestling both positives and negatives and and um let it build you up you know it's they say it builds character so uh I feel like uh it definitely has built uh my character and who I am today I I does the when you hear when you come up with the idea of like a no ropes match like does that excite you as a wrestler does it make you nervous as a wrestler um because it's such it's such a different story than uh what you're typically going to be telling um so yeah does that are you I don't yeah what are your thoughts like when you go into something like that that is a completely departure from like what you're used to yeah I I mean I didn't invent it um but it was definitely my idea to do those matches and we do have to you know the original one was with Mark Quinn of Private Party and the idea was well I was gonna take away his advantage of being such a Olympic caliber kind of high flyer and then from there you know I faced Ken Broadway and that match was very much of just a brutal brutal match and it kind of became more of a a warfare kind of match but yeah you definitely have to go in with a certain mindset because you can't hit the ropes you can't really use the turnbuckles so you you call you go in with such a limited uh moveset uh for certain people even submissions like it works out well if you have the submission on but if you don't have it on there's no ropes to break it up or try to get out of there so it's really a fight or flight kind of situation and you know after after that kind of segment of matches they more matches started become no ropes matches and they started doing it in like a ball obviously now they they do blood sport and there's no ropes and stuff like that.
SPEAKER_00But yeah it's not something I uh invented or anything but it did it did become popular uh in that time frame wow um and then I want to talk just because you like you've been around the business for so long so now you're walking into locker rooms where you are like the veteran um and like and does that like does that do you notice that responsibility does do people put that responsibility on you do you welcome that um yeah um so what I would say to that I don't really feel that way uh even though it is the reality of it so I don't feel that way I still feel like I just started yesterday um but it does I do see it bearing responsibility on my end in certain places and uh I kind of joke sometimes that I feel like I'm an accidental alpha and it's not something that I really was aiming to do it's just something that I guess somehow is in me.
SPEAKER_01And um you know a lot of people feel um their words not mine that I'm a good leader and um I accept that um humbly of course uh but it's not something I'm attempting to do. Uh I don't go into the locker room and like I'm the locker room leader here. So everybody listen to me.
SPEAKER_04It's just I guess it's more of an energy that I give off that that people uh gravitate to and it makes sense having the belt put on you so many times at so many different promotions and I just saw this fact and I don't know if it's actually still factually true but uh allegedly you are still the longest running title holder of the heavyweight championship belt at House of Glory I mean those are facts yes um I know that is crazy yeah because it was it 1370 something days or something yeah I mean uh COVID helped I think with that so but it was it was a while before they uh crowned a new one yes and you took the belt off of Amazing Red right I did yes that's crazy that's so cool sorry that was just not a question but that was really cool but um also this is just a random thing that jumped into my head that I just remembered is that you had said in an interview that a different style of wrestling match that you would want to do like a more like random not like random but uh I don't know the word for it but a match you would consider doing if possible was a buried alive match which would you still be willing to do that if the logistics were possible because that would Doctor sleep in a buried alive match we also watched buried alive not that long ago I mean maybe more like a year a year ago I don't know who knows but like but to me and not to give away the potential end of something that may potential happen maybe one day in the future um is it would be to me you would have to be the one buried that comes back to life like Dr. Sleep like resurrect the hand do you know what I mean? Yeah yeah uh I would definitely love to do that I actually recently was in a cascade and it was uh very comfortable actually so I think I would do very well in a buried alive match and let's just say somehow I were to lose that I'm pretty sure uh my glove would come out the grass would yes I I I really don't think I could really die if I'm being honest with you uh so yeah I think my spirit will forever haunt Earth so I and honestly here's hoping because I'm hoping to ask you for advice way into the into the history years so I'm hoping yes yes oh do your uh seance and then I'll come you you got it you and you know I got the materials she's got the candles you're you know I got the materials um I also wanted to ask this as kind of a a random left as well but this really intrigued me because I again new to wrestling so I am not sure necessarily how much it's changed over the years but you said that you believe at this day and age in wrestling talent is actually the most important thing when it comes to getting signed. Like you feel like talent is what's actually appreciated nowadays which is a great like thing for independent wrestlers to see one that was pretty recent so I'm assuming you still feel that way but like can you just kind of like speak to that a little bit just because like for someone who doesn't know I was like was it more of like a like who you knew kind of game I'm assuming or like a numbers game I'm just that was to me such an interesting statement.
SPEAKER_00Yeah uh I think so there there definitely is that aspect of who you know uh in wrestling just like any entertainment so uh just because you're the best shortstop does not mean that you'll get the spot like you would in baseball but I I think nowadays there's so many great athletes and so many uh great just performers that you you your talent uh has to be different from the next person and like if you take uh someone like Danhausen there really is no one else like him in wrestling that his talent isn't necessarily and I believe he said this in a recent documentary not necessarily being the greatest athlete in the world but his talent is to kind of uh connect with the audience on a level that isn't uh just wrestling based it's it's very much um the uh persona of Danhausen and his interactions between talents and everything else and that's kind of his talent but I think uh yeah I think that talent is definitely one of the most important things because you know there's so many great great people at everything on television now and um you have to uh you have to produce uh and that's kind of uh the way I see things wow I love that yeah um I wanted to uh segue into your upcoming show at respect um because one um we had Ray on we love Ray um but I want to just what is it like to kind of see somebody that you've kind of had a mentorship kind of relationship with in the business like do like really strike out on on their own um and then then we obviously have to talk about the upcoming match uh with Austin Aries which is somebody who is just insanely talented and insanely well traveled um so yeah um another accident was becoming kind of raised like mentor um so that yeah but I uh I travel with Ray uh a good amount and those car rides just like they were for me back in the day those car rides are as important as going to training or being in a ring or learning in front of the of an audience so those car rides I kind of give him all the mistakes that I've made of what I've seen and he kind of uh soaks that up and for Ray one I think he's truly and it's not because I'm very hard on him when it comes to like wrestling advice but uh when it comes to commentary I honestly believe he's one of the best commentators out there and um the reason for that is that he's professional and there's value in other commentary um and having a good time but I to me Ray does it in a way that uh respects wrestling no pun intended um yeah so and then to see him kind of fulfill his dream in becoming a promoter uh on an independent level it's very um it's most people don't get to do their dream and even if you do it just one time uh you've done more than the person next to you and for him to do that is is a great accomplishment and I'm very um I hate to say proud because I'm not his parent or anything but I'm very happy for him uh and um you know he takes I believe he takes my advice on uh what we talked about in in the past and and kind of applies it uh he he I can't say I agree with everything he does but you also have to make your own mistakes and learn from from them as well as from you because that's what I did.
SPEAKER_01I learned from my mistakes and and you know what I thought would work doesn't work and and things of that nature. But so far uh he's been doing a great job in realizing his um vision of what he thinks wrestling should be. And that's that's the thing when you do these um when you're a promoter or you're in creative or a booker uh you're kind of trying to portray portray your version of what you feel wrestling should be and you hope that other people will enjoy it just as much as you do and I think uh so far Ray's on the right track for that. Agreed.
SPEAKER_04Yeah for sure it's so funny you bring um you bring up Ray's commentary because I just I really bother Ray a lot. I think he's like really regretting letting me uh be in his DMs but I um when I first like encountered Ray just as who he is it's it was only via like his show or just like respect um and I had never really been up on his commentary game and then we were interviewing I think it was Joey Conway and I was like researching for him and I heard I was like is that Ray I was like oh my God and I like messaged him I was like wait hold on and it was so amazing and then the other day I heard him again researching somebody else and I voice memoed him and I was like literally like I just told this story but I was just I was like frying up chicken cutlets in my kitchen like voice memoing him and he just messaged me back and goes sound like those chicken cutlets are getting the best of you and I was like I was like okay um and I was like no they didn't but like but um he's so crazy good at commentary and I was like it's so interesting to me that that's how a lot of people know you and I who knew nothing like stumbled upon you doing it and I feel the same. Like it's just you are that good. Like you just have this finesse and just this amazing way of calling a match without overtaking it. He's just so good. But it's it's so funny every time person I talk to that is always what they mention about Ray is how great he is on commentary and I cannot tell him enough. So I just love that I just had to mention that yeah yeah I agree I agree and that's the last good thing I'll say about Ray and that's fair I'll say good things about him later I'll I'll DM him again and be like back again.
SPEAKER_01No 100% um but um yeah let's talk about the uh upcoming match because it's it's gonna be sick it it's gonna be sick um but it's also it it's just like he's so he's been everywhere he literally everywhere um and then it's also it's just some it's always interesting to me when somebody like who has that much experience like is the chaser in a match um is the person chasing the title um so yeah what does this match like mean to you and like uh yeah what what are you hoping to get out of this well um not to give too much of the game but um Austin Aries probably is the only dream match that I ever really wanted and um there was one opportunity in the past that maybe it could have happened but um want to be a company guy and I did something else instead uh so uh is it was actually that no ropes match what was the other is what happened which I don't regret or anything but it's like one of those like oh what if this was my only opportunity so uh and here we are now and this match is is gonna happen and like to me Aries was someone uh prior to being in wrestling and also being in wrestling that I looked up to because uh he wasn't the biggest guy in the room uh but he had uh such great verbal skills and such a great athlete and such a great wrestler that he was able to get to the top of so many promotions like Ring of Honor like TNA he made it to WWE I mean the fact that he was able to do all of that and not be necessarily what the uh typical wrestler is supposed to be due to various um things um is just was such an inspiration for me because it made me feel like I could do this as well. And uh to have this match of course um on a personal level means a lot but I also have to kind of hide that part and realize it's it's time to go to work and um you know he's a multi-time world champion and now he's coming after my title at the respect title and I can't let that um for lack of a better term mark in me overtake me and I respect him but once that bell rings he has to be any other opponent and I have to make sure that I'm the best I've ever been that night and be a former world champion in Austin Aries.
SPEAKER_04Whoa I'm like I'm scared for him and and myself as an audience member um do you have something? No go ahead okay I was because I was gonna pivot a little bit please okay pivot away thank you this is again I'm just like kind of remembering I I really did such a deep dive on you today it's like randomly coming in through like little like straws and stuff. But I um you had said also that you just happen to have like a great support system which is like why like wrestling was able to be like a thing for you in a lot of ways. Do you still feel like you have like a great support system whether it's family friends like promotions like anything like that or like is it kind of because also what I'm also trying to get at too is you had said earlier that like this is the most yourself you've been like as a character quote unquote. But like and I think that has a lot to do because Xavier and I are also in our 30s and like it sometimes it just you get to a point where like I just like have no choice but to be myself. Like I just like can't this is help it but be myself. This is this girl this is it. But like so you have do you still feel like you have like a great support system and like also even coming from within yourself or is that just like totally hearsay I'm making up um no I think to a degree I definitely have a a good support system.
SPEAKER_01I feel that maybe um there are times where a lot of us as human beings don't realize um the people around us and how much they uh affect and and help your life because of various reasons. So I I would say um I definitely have a good small support system but a lot of it um does nowadays kind of come within myself. Some of the points that you were speaking about, I think in in the past, and a lot of younger wrestlers, I think, um feel this way as well. You kind of want to be like the most confident version of yourself and kind of um you kind of play a role instead of um kind of using what you have inside of you and kind of building towards uh what your uh persona should be. And I think a lot of people are scared to look stupid or uh afraid of just not being the most alpha or the coolest person in the room or whatever the case is, and I think now in the past two to three years, I finally have um gained the confidence and realize that um I need to be a version of myself uh that uh most people don't get to see, but you get to see some piece of me when I'm out there. So um I do believe uh strongly in kind of this quote of you can't expect the world to cope with you, you have to cope with the world, and I think that's probably one of the most important lines that I've learned uh about life. So um, you know, the world can be very mean and it can be very nasty, uh, but if you're gonna wait for it to be nice to you, uh you it probably won't happen. So uh you have to figure out how you can move through life in a positive way for yourself and the people that matter, and then uh your goals, and uh that way it doesn't stress you out or or kind of gets to your heart or your mind.
SPEAKER_04That was very beautifully said.
SPEAKER_00Um speaking of goals, uh what do you feel like you have to like to accomplish? Like what is like then immediate goals, I guess. Um because we can talk, you know, long term forever, but just what is do what is on the immediate horizon for you?
SPEAKER_01Uh I think uh clearly more championships, but uh so yeah, uh definitely that. More places to work, uh more places um outside of the of my area, I would say, definitely something, which I've been branching out a lot more um in the past year or so, but I think there's always uh more room for that. Um just more opportunities with uh with the TV companies, and obviously I think it's pretty fair to say that um a uh contract would be very nice.
SPEAKER_04For sure. Yeah. This this is a really hard pivot, but I'm just curious. Um, did you like the film adaptation of V for Vendetta?
SPEAKER_01I did, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um I know a lot of people did not like it, but I think um for me it worked. Um it's but it's kind of like it's one of those films that you're like, how did this get made? It's like a lot of like they live. Like, how did they live by John Carpenter get made? Because it kind of tells you a lot about our society. So and it's like you know, you would have thought that someone would have squashed it, I guess, right? But um, yeah, I mean that that movie, they live, those kind of movies kind of are ingrained uh in my uh blood.
SPEAKER_04So yeah, I feel like it's interesting that I feel like nowadays it would actually be more likely to get squashed than it would then. Because I don't think as many, and maybe this is just like ignorant of me, but like as many people were quite paying attention until like now, yeah, because I remember that movie imprinting on me as a child and being like maybe not a child, I don't remember how old I was, but I was like, No, do people know about this? Like, do people know what's going on? And like, you know, on the 5th of November, I'd be like sitting around just being like, is anyone feeling what I'm feeling? Like, is anyone but I too liked the film adaptation, so you are also in good company, but it I know it is a very polarizing conversation to have with certain people who are fans of the graphic novel. But I I think the only part that's inhibited me slightly was Natalie Portman's abysmal uh British accent, but we can forgive it's Natalie Portman. And what do I and what do I know? I'm not doing it.
SPEAKER_01Very, very true, very true.
SPEAKER_04But God bless her.
SPEAKER_01I always uh I try to separate each medium. What works in a book or graphic novel simply doesn't work for a movie, and vice versa. And if if you don't like the movie, you always have the book. If the movie's better than the book, you have the movie.
SPEAKER_04So absolutely, that's very true. I feel the same way, and that was a really hard take. I was an English major in college, and that was a very hard debate to have with people about book adaptations to movies, and I'm like, it's an adaptation, adapting to something different, like so it's not gonna be the book, but yeah, I so get that.
SPEAKER_00I just had to know because I know it's polarizing, and I just looked at my V for vendetta and I was like, I'm gonna ask him while I got you had mentioned earlier that you um had like five matches that you're like truly like satisfied with. Like, who were those opponents for you that kind of like brought the best out of you or challenged you in a way that left you like satisfied with that mat with those matches?
SPEAKER_01Um so it's funny because uh some of them are with people I don't necessarily would uh have Christmas dinner with. So um, and that's that's the really interesting part about wrestling is that you don't necessarily have to get along with certain people, uh, and you can have this incredible chemistry with them. Um, so yeah, I mean, I would say probably all the no ropes matches were satisfying in some way. Um I wrestled um Darius Carter at our BCW show um 2024, and that match I feel like was um a satisfying match. Uh typically those matches are ones that I feel like the what happens in the ring matches the story that we're trying to tell or have been telling for months. Um there's one against uh Kelsey Reagan, which is an intergender match, that um that match, and she I mean, for her, it was just a regular match, and maybe I kind of walked into it as well. You know, obviously we wanted to have the best match we could, but it was like that match kind of woke me up to the possibility of what Dr. Sleep can be, and I kind of unintentionally credit her because she was the reason why I was able to figure it out. Uh, that was actually the first time I did do the mandible claw as well in the in that match. And she was one, she's a badass, and she's very game for so much, and she has a lot of fight in her. And um, you know, unfortunately for her, she wasn't necessarily my uh final girl, but she's still out there somewhere waiting to take me out.
SPEAKER_04Love that. I it's it's so interesting too because you have been doing intergender wrestling for a long time. Like you if you go back pretty much to any of your like back in time to any year you were in wrestling, like there is an intergender match to be found. And it was really interesting because I think it was in the documentary, you were like, well, it's also like it's great to be a heel in that match because like really you just go like I'm not gonna like fight a woman, and it's like everyone hates you. Like, because we and we were just watching Lucha Underground last night. I was it was my first exposure to it, and Son of Havoc was fighting what it's is it something star sexy star, iconic, and his only thing was like, I'm not gonna hit a woman, so you better leave. And everyone was like, get that guy, he sucks. And I was like, it seriously is the quickest way to piss me off. Like it's it's so it's so brilliant, but you've been doing intergender matches for such a long time. Like, how did that come about for you? Like, were you just like, yeah, like she's a badass, I'm let's fight.
SPEAKER_01Like, um, so I do for me, I do value um realism. So uh that being said, I feel like uh all the women that I've wrestled uh potentially could kick my ass. So uh it really works out in that way, and in in that documentary, obviously that is the most basic story you can tell when it comes to intergender. Um I like to think uh nowadays it's more of a a horror uh chase scene between myself and and whoever I'm wrestling. But um, yeah, I mean, to me, um it's like if I were to fight uh like a gorilla, probably gonna lose that. But to me, someone like Kelsey uh or Amity or or whomever, I think it's very believable that they could kick my ass. Uh they may not win, so I'm not gonna put myself down too much, but uh there there is the potential of kicking my ass, and so many other um of my peers as well. So um, yeah, I mean, this is this is a lot of people kind of harp on it, and I in in some ways I can understand it, but it's also our jobs to figure out how to make this come across in a way that our audience can understand. And there's a lot of wrestling that is um maybe a bit fantastical, uh, and it's not necessarily I would enjoy. Uh, Dr. Sleep to me very much is in the real world, uh, even though people might think that it's um uh not of this world, but there's maybe some smoke and mirrors to that. But to me, realism always has worked for me. So it's your job to make uh that story come across where you believe any opponent can beat you or or um you know whatever the uh angle might be.
SPEAKER_04I love that the idea of the angle with like the horror villain and the final girl. That's brilliant, and like that's so much more interesting than just like I hate women, I'm not gonna hit her. Yeah, yeah. God bless. That's so great.
SPEAKER_01I actually roll my eye. I saw a match like that recently, and I was kind of rolled my eyes. I'm like, uh, I think we could do better than this.
SPEAKER_04I think we've yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Uh I have just one more. Um do you have any any more, Kelsey?
SPEAKER_04No, we will we can release you from the shackle.
SPEAKER_00No, um, I wanted to ask just because Kelsey is um new to wrestling, I always ask every guest um uh for a suggestion or of a match to show Kelsey just to further her kind of like education, something that either was the uh something that you go back to repeatedly, something that yeah, just something you would show a new fan, or a match of yours that you would show a new fan um that introduces Dr. Sleep like in the way that you'd like to be introduced.
SPEAKER_01Oh, okay. Um well I would say uh to I would say my match with Bear Bronson uh at respect uh last fantastic. I think that that's a good way to start for me. Uh when it I feel like I'm gonna pick a match you guys already saw. Uh so one of my favorite matches of all time is Mankind versus Shawn Michaels at Mind Games 96. 96, yes.
SPEAKER_04Really?
SPEAKER_01That match is so good.
SPEAKER_04So good. Yes, not when you get often.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's yeah, that's that's a match that I think it might be because there is uh a DQ at the end. But but that match to me just is what wrestling is. Uh, where where are you guys at as far as uh you're watching?
SPEAKER_041998.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so we just were past Hell in a Cell. Um crazy. Um and I think we're around like King of the Ring 1998.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Uh did someone do we do King of the Ring already?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Ken Shamrock just won King of the Ring.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So we started 1996 and now we're in 1998.
SPEAKER_01Okay. All right. Well, I'll I'll I'll give you one that's maybe a little bit more outside the box and not WWE. And I'll I'll talk about Austin Aries. There's a match between Austin Aries and Nigel McGuinness from Rising Above 2007 that you guys could uh try to look up.
SPEAKER_00Or an iPod they do that. Oh, I would love to. Again, this is very underrated. That dude is not got enough credit. Absolutely, absolutely.
SPEAKER_04Oh, I'm excited.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, thank you so much for your time.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_00Seriously, um, we greatly appreciate it. Um, everybody, please, please, please. Um, if you are in the area, um, check out uh respect all or nothing on July 24th. Um, the main event is right here, Anthony Gangone taking on Austin Aries. Um uh Kelsey, any any final words for our guest?
SPEAKER_04Thank you so much. This was so exciting for me, and I hope I wasn't too freaky about it.
SPEAKER_01Oh no, I'm so excited. I feel like maybe in your life some people say that you might be a little extra, but I welcome that because I think that's a great attribute to have because you're being you, and that's all anyone can ask. So thank you.
SPEAKER_04I'm like, okay, so like wrap it up or all right, guys.
SPEAKER_00This has been another edition of the New To Wrestling Podcast. Thank you so much for liking, commenting, subscribing, all that fun stuff wherever you happen to find us. For Dr. Sleep, Anthony Gay and Gone, that's Kelsey, and we'll catch you on the next one.
SPEAKER_04Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Bye bye.
SPEAKER_04Bye.