Time for A New Approach to Scam Prevention

[Podcasters note: In this episode we show our real passions for payments and appear not as CEO & EVP, but more as "two guys from Boston" as we tackle the alarming rise of scams and financial fraud.]

Joe Casali and guest Sean Carter, President & CEO of NEACH, dissect the recent "Chase Bank Glitch" where individuals fell prey to check kiting schemes. They discuss the importance of financial literacy, especially among younger generations, to combat scams that fund harmful activities like human trafficking.

Sean and Joseph emphasize the need for impactful awareness campaigns that connect fraudulent actions with real-world consequences. They explore the effectiveness of campaigns like "Don't Drink and Drive" and "Smokey the Bear" as models for conveying the gravity of falling victim to scams.

The episode concludes with a call to action: Listeners are urged to contribute ideas for combating financial fraud and to educate themselves about common scams. They highlight the availability of resources like the Federal Reserve Bank's Scam Classifier as a starting point for understanding and preventing scams.

Guest-at-a-Glance
Name: Sean Carter
What they do: President & CEO
Company: NEACH
Noteworthy: Sean has worked with NEACH for over 30 years. He is an accredited AAP and NCP advocating for financial institutions in the payments space.
Where to find them: LinkedIn  

KEY INSIGHTS

The "Chase Bank Glitch" Exposes a Need for Basic Financial Education

The recent "Chase Bank Glitch" scam, where individuals attempted to exploit a non-existent banking error for financial gain, underscores a critical need for basic financial education. This event revealed a lack of understanding surrounding check kiting, a simple yet illegal practice. Educating individuals, particularly young people, on fundamental financial concepts can empower them to identify and avoid such scams. By equipping them with this knowledge, we can disrupt the cycle of fraud that preys on financial naiveté.

Successful Awareness Campaigns Connect Actions with Real-World Consequences

To combat scams effectively, awareness campaigns need to move beyond simple warnings and instead draw a direct line between fraudulent behavior and its real-world consequences. This connection resonates more deeply than simply stating facts or urging caution. Just as "Don't Drink and Drive" highlights the tragic results of drunk driving, scam prevention campaigns must effectively communicate the devastating impact of fraud on individuals, businesses, and society. By understanding these tangible repercussions, potential victims are more likely to internalize the message and protect themselves.

Financial Institutions and Consumers Share Responsibility in Preventing Fraud

While financial institutions play a crucial role in fraud prevention, consumers must also take responsibility for protecting themselves. The conversation highlights a potential imbalance where banks often bear the brunt of reimbursing victims while individuals may not always face consequences for their actions. Finding a balance between consumer protection and accountability is crucial. Financial literacy empowers consumers to make informed decisions, while clear communication from institutions can help prevent them from falling victim to fraudulent schemes.

Transcript

Time for A New Approach to Scam Prevention

WRESTLING PAYMENTS ep 2-17
Sean Carter: [00:00:00] These scammers, I won't call them stupid, but I'm going to be nicer about it, the literal definition of stupidity, right, because number one, as you mentioned, what they're doing is highly illegal. Number two, really important, this could impact your future ability to get an account because you are going to be blacklisted.

But I've seen similar things, Joe, as I was telling you. Similar things on this game Roadblocks. I don't know if you've heard of Roadblocks, I have, but I have two young kids. And, you know, they somehow, you know, my ten year old sometimes will accept people to play with. She doesn't do a good job of CDD and enhanced due diligence.

Joe Casali: [00:01:00] Hello and welcome to a special, really down and dirty episode of Wrestling Payments, and it's not that dirty, but it's, it's, it's going to be, blunt. part of our days in payments are spent learning about and trying to prevent against frauds and scams that have taken place.we did a couple of episodes over the summer with Patty Presta and she talked about horrible stories about elder financial abuse.

Romance scams, your grandson has been, arrested and you need bail money. just horrible, horrible things that are happening. And in the industry, we've noticed there have been increases. We just did a survey on, [00:02:00] I, what are you seeing? And there's, we're seeing a lot of, fraud in checks.

You know, there's fraud everywhere, but we're seeing a lot of fraud in checks. We're seeing stories, I'm sure you've heard the stories, of mail carriers being assaulted for their key. So that the scammers can get into the mailboxes and steal the mail right out of the mailboxes. So this is going to be a, I'm, and if you're old enough, you'll understand this.

I'm tired of it all, and I'm not going to take it anymore. We need a new way to fight against fraud. Now, the latest thing I've heard, fraud I've heard last night. Now, I guess I'm late to the party because this was happening all weekend. This fraud, this scam in this one is a pointless scam. I, no one. No bad guy wins from this one, but the amount of chaos caused is, is, crazy.

So this one was called Chase Bank Glitch, and the idea circulated by the [00:03:00] bad guys and by the less than intelligent bad guys, and you'll see why in a minute, and I've, you know, I've watched a lot of videos on this, and the bad guys say they're less than intelligent because, you know, like the, like, again, a quote from a movie, you don't talk, first rule of Fight Club, you don't talk about Fight Club.

These guys were sharing this scam, what, far and wide. So that more and more people, were doing it real, I guess real scammers don't do that. They don't share intelligence. So the, the chase bank glitch, get this one. And if you're in payments at all, you'll, your jaw should drop at some point in this. And actually, before I explain that, Sean, you're sitting there.

Would you like to introduce yourself? 

Sean Carter: Sean Carter from NEACH . I'm just, as mad as you are, Joe, I see some of the things online with my own kids and how people are trying to scam kids out of money and it, and it is time for, for a new way forward. I know this, Chase thing got you fired up, so I wanted to tell people what they were actually doing.

Joe Casali: right. And I told Sean [00:04:00] before the call that we're, we're right now, we're just two guys from Boston, mad as hell. I got my Duncan, I'm ready to go. All right, chase, chase bank glitch. There's a glitch in the chase bank system and we can take advantage of that. All you have to do, please. As a disclaimer, this is not a glitch and it is illegal.

Do not do it. And you will go to jail. You will be arrested and you will owe the money. What you do is they, they're told that if you take a check from one account and write it out for 50, 000, 100, 000, this, the money's not in the account, but they tell you, write that check out. You deposit it in the Chase ATM and the ATM spits out 20, 000 to you.

122, 000 to you. And then it's free money. Go spend it on a car. Go spend it on, you know, trips. Just go and spend [00:05:00] it. And the time frame I heard on this, and now I heard some stories that went back further, but the time, time frame I heard on these stories was last Friday, the Friday before Labor Day. So now you've got a Friday deposit.

Saturday, Sunday, Labor Day, three different days. People out and about spending all this money going crazy. Woo hoo. We're rich. And, they'll go to look at their account on Tuesday morning and they're getting various messages. some messages say frozen. Some messages say your account balance is negative 50 billion literally on the screen, billion dollars account is locked.

All of these, all the scammers are finding out on Monday morning that it's locked because what I've explained to you is what's called check kiting. It is illegal. It is old, old, old,what's his Abagnale was doing this when he was, you know, putting the little, what a pan am logo [00:06:00] on the fake checks.

This is kiting. It is fraud. And if it's more than 500, I believe it is a felony and it will ruin these scammers life. because they will not be able to have a bank account. They will not be able to get a loan. They may not even be able to get a job. And that's all when they get out of prison. it's all over.

 I watch TikTok in my spare time. It's all over TikTok. It's all over,YouTube and I imagine by the time you've heard this it's it hit mainstream media. It's it is not a glitch. There is not a banking glitch that gives you free money. There is no such thing as a free money. It doesn't work And it's it's aggravating Sean did you have something you wanted to cover?

Mm

Sean Carter: so, no, no,these, these, These scammers, I won't call them stupid, but I'm going to be nicer about it, the literal [00:07:00] definition of stupidity, right, because number one, as you mentioned, what they're doing is highly illegal. Number two, really important, this could impact your future ability to get an account because you are going to be blacklisted.

But I've seen similar things, Joe, as I was telling you. Similar things on this game Roadblocks. I don't know if you've heard of Roadblocks, I have, but I have two young kids. And, you know, they somehow, you know, my ten year old sometimes will accept people to play with. She doesn't do a good job of CDD and enhanced due diligence.

And, and so I will watch over her games.you know, they instruct her because she has, you know, they, they talk to you as if you're a kid and oh, you have a green light card. Oh, you have a green light card. And they, and they kind of tell you, Oh, do this with your green light card. Go here and do this and you can make money.

And it's like they're trying to tell 10 and 12 year [00:08:00] olds. to commit fraud. And it's, it's kind of what you're seeing with that Chase thing is, you know, people, some of it is, hey, I'll try it out. I saw this thing on Tic Tac. Some of it is people are really broke and they think they need, they need the money, right?

And they try something, foolish. but the bigger thing, Joe, the reason we're doing this is whatever we're doing to prevent this stuff is not working, right? So teaching people public service announcements, sharing stories on, on social media of this is fake. you know, you, you can, you can go on Facebook right now and find a million and five people answering what street did you grow up on?

Which is literally put on Facebook for the purposes of stealing your information. And you can go in there and post, nobody do this. This is a scam and you'll see after your post. Another2 million people will, will answer it. the, [00:09:00] the big topic, right, the government talks about is financial education for people.

We gotta start with Don't Get Ripped Off, right? We, I think we need to have a full on Don't Get Ripped Off campaign because it, it doesn't matter if you manage your money properly. Right? If you fall for every scam, you're going to get cleaned out, and there's not always protections, you know, we really need to do some work, and I know our, our financial institutions, I give them credit, they try to do these community events where they're going out, and they're talking to either businesses or consumers about fraud, and I've done some for FIs, and We get 50 people in a room, which is yay, that looks good in the room.

But if you look at that number compared to the amount of customers they have, right, and obviously the goal wasn't to get everybody to a hotel room because you couldn't afford it for a free event, but to get the message out to as many people as possible, we're not. [00:10:00] It's not working. and you know, some of the people that are in charge of children, . I know it's September.

We don't want to knock teachers, but if you follow teachers on social media, no, right. So they're not the answer in school, right? They, they're falling for some of these things as well. Right. And, you know, what I really get mad about, not that my own, you know, Besides my own kid not being that, alert when it comes to this stuff.

What I get mad about is the money that is stolen. And typical scams is literally being used to traffic kids, traffic drugs, build nuclear weapons by nation states, like we are literally, when you fall for these scams, not saying that anybody that falls for a scam agrees with sex trafficking, but you're literally funding it.

You are literally funding those activities. So we need to get better. [00:11:00] Taking, what was the number you and I looked up, 347 million, 2023, just one stat about how much money was stolen from consumers, and another 3 billion plus for businesses, that money's out of the economy, right? That money is, is, is Not being used to purchase a home, to start a business, to add employees, to do anything that is productive, right?

And this is a huge, huge problem. I guess we're using this to raise the alarm threat level high. you know, like, we're at global warming type levels here where we need to hit the panic button. and you know, that's kind of what we wanted to talk about here,

 today. 

Joe Casali: I agree with you. So I, I, you know, I caught, I, I a, I'm a YouTuber too, so I watch a lot of YouTube. we're not gonna solve every problem. That's, you know, it, it, there were scammers I imagine in a ancient Egypt. So it's, it's not [00:12:00] like we're gonna stop it, but just to, just to raise the bar a little bit.

I watched the video on,it was romance scam stuff. In, Australia. It was an Australian. You know, everyone came over with an accent. Maybe we have an accent here, but but everyone came over with an accent and it was an organized crime. It was 70 miles of factories based. That's what they said. And I was like, how 70 miles of factories?

That's what they said. 70 miles of factories with people callers. they would using AI to people callers. change their faces, so they were actually, talking in their own, well not, it wasn't their own voice, they were talking, their voice was being modified, their face was being modified, and those scammers, right, the bad guys, those scammers were actually slaves.

They were actually being beaten if they didn't get money out of people. So [00:13:00] it's a big cycle and you know, let's not attack that one right now. But basic education, jumping back to my, my glitch, my chase bank glitch. It is basic. I think it's basic that these people were using their own checks. They weren't stealing a check out of the mailbox and wiping it and washing it and doing all the magical stuff.

They were taking their own check, writing it. and putting it into another account. This should be the basic education everyone has available to them as check kiting. it's old. It is, I mean, it's old. The Abingnell was doing it, but was it the sixties, the seventies? It was, it was craziness, basic education.

And my, you know, when we started this, this topic, my idea is if we can educate a generation of people. that says and listens when they hear [00:14:00] their grandparent, their parent saying things like, Oh, we got a call about Johnny. Johnny's in jail. We need to send him. They want us to send them gift cards for the bail money.

Stop! Stop! No! Stop! my mother, you know, my, you know, we in the industry, we go back to families that have no idea what we do. My mother, was talking to me once that she needed the tax payment for a lottery which she won. I said, Ma, did you enter a lottery? No. How did you win if you didn't enter? It doesn't matter.

I got to send it. Otherwise, if I don't send it,I'm not going to get the lottery winnings. I'm like, my, you didn't win a lottery. And even worse, even worse. I mean, you know, you think I have one individual in this, in the family that, that, you know, fell prey to this. My brother had a Russian girlfriend.

He did. No, it was a Russian girlfriend. She, she loved him. [00:15:00] She was just having a lot of trouble with her visa. I spent hours with him. Tommy, she's not real. Look, I found her pictures other places. Nope, nope. She needs the money. She's just having trouble with her visa. You know, we want her to come over. She's, you know, she just needs the help.

I wanna, I wanna make a little army out of people so when they hear these things, and, and recently, The movie came out and I think, you know, I haven't said this yet to you, but maybe we should sponsor a movie night with this movie for the membership. It's called Thelma and it's a story of the grandson.

I need bail money. Can you send me a bail money, grandma? And, she does. And she spends the rest of the movie hunting, hunting the culprits down. I didn't see it, but it is, it is, it is, pure elder abuse. And, I want to talk about the fraud classifier. But I mean, the scam classifier, but any, any other [00:16:00] stories?

Sean Carter: I think the goal, I think the goal is the right goal, but I look at it a little different. I don't think it's now. I think we need to create two generations. We're going to lose another 10 to 15 years, but I think we can grow a generation that when they're elderly will not be falling for the same elder abuse.

You see today, I think it's too hard with like people that are there today, like your brother saying no, even you can show them all the evidence in the world and I used to joke about this when I did workshops because I was immature. I didn't realize the bigger picture, but I used to say, Hey, if you have a customer, That is 55 years old and finally falls in love on a Thursday night at 3 a.

m. on the internet. You know, how do they think they're not going to get their money stolen? But people get lonely, right? The social media aspect of this, and there has been scams forever, but social media is just, you know, the anonymous nature of everything. [00:17:00] It's so much easier to be the bad guy here.

And I think there's a lot We can do. Right. And so you and I have, we get all the call calls from the member, but we, the one that irked me the most, last week we hit, we had a call about, it was somebody that was, a business customer had, was defrauded. And, and the reason they were defrauded was they got an, a high level notice from a.

Hey, you know, we need you to pay your invoice sooner. We're having cash problems. We're going to go under. So the business being nice, the person being nice says, Oh yeah, we can help you. We'll, we'll, we'll rush the payment out. That's not the payment was supposed to go. And 86, 000 later, the money's gone.

Right? And so people are good hearted, right? By default. And that's, we don't want to erase that. You don't want to create a world where people are. Hostile and don't help each other [00:18:00] or doubt everything, but we gotta do a much better job of just questioning certain things. Like, all of those people, not one person picked up the bank and called Chase and said, Hey, do you think there's a glitch where I could get 50 grand out of the ATM?

Right? I'm sure somebody at the bank would've went, Hold on, I'm pretty sure this isn't real. know, and as you mentioned, you just, Touched on one thing called the scam classifier. So if you want to tell people about that, I think that's a helpful tool in this regard. But if you wanted to give a little more

Joe Casali: So 

Sean Carter: around that. 

Joe Casali: I'm, you know, if you're listening, just just Google fraud classifier. It's from the Federal Reserve Bank. And the idea behind this and something else they developed the sorry, the I'm talking about right now the scam classifier. The Fed has also released the fraud classifier. And, and the theory behind both of those is, depending on where you were, what industry [00:19:00] you were, were in, what, you know, what background you have, There was different words for the same thing.

And the idea here is let's start using the same words. So we all know what we're talking about. this class fraud classifier is new and it is, it's brand new. It is not,it's not the end of the story. It's a start of the story. what it does is walks you through the idea of fraud. of identifying your fraud so that, of your scam.

Sorry, I keep flip flopping those words. Identifying your scam so you know what kind of scam it was. And I, I tried to use this for the chase thing and I, I had to jump to the fraud classifier because it was different. But this, this will identify things like, and, and that, that's just part of the story for me, We hear so many scams.

If we could just develop little phrases that make [00:20:00] sense, like, Don't buy kittens unless you're holding them, right? Because people buy kittens off the internet. There are no kittens. Your money goes away. So this is investment frauds and property sales and romance impostors. You know, don't give someone money to you, don't give someone money, don't give them access to your bank account until you meet them in person.

Right? And that's hard sometimes because they're in Germany and they just need that money for the plane ticket. Or they're in Russia and they just need the money for the visa. but if you, if you're, if you haven't shook their hand. Don't give them money. If your kid or a grandkid is calling a grandparent for bail, why aren't they calling the parent?

Just simple little, nope, nope. Because they are in the heat of the moment. They are, you know, the kid's not just saying, Hi grandma, I'm in jail. They're saying, [00:21:00] You're gonna give me the money, I gotta get out of jail, if you don't get the money, I'll be here all week. They're crazy. the one I see on the internet all the time is the factories in, in India, the, the, the calling trees where they, you know, Microsoft is not calling you to tell you your computer's not working.

They don't do it. The IRS doesn't call you to say you owe money. They don't do it. They send you a letter. They don't do it. They, they, no one's gonna call to tell you they're signing a, arrest warrant at the loclocal police station to sende police to arrest you. They're not gonna do it. And they never are going to send you to Walmart to get, prepaid cards to pay them back.

All of those things are, you know, if you could just, maybe we could get someone to write a song, right? And we could have the, the scam prevention song. But this, this, [00:22:00] scam, I'd like to take this scam, classifier and add, a section to the end that says, and if this has happened, here's what you do next to try to stop it and get your money back.

it, it, it, you know, it, I think it's the same for Sean. It makes us boil because these are bad guys taking money. Now, in the case of the Australian guys, They're in as much trouble as the people they're taking money from because they're being beaten and they're being moved around and they're real life, modern day slaves.

They have been kidnapped to do these things. And if they don't do it correctly, they get beaten. It's not okay. Sorry, I've got to turn it over to you because I'm heated.

Sean Carter: No, it's, get your, it does get you upset. And, I think the beauty of both the [00:23:00] classifier models is to get people calling things the same. Language using the same verbiage then allows you to track data, right? If we can, if we can narrow down to say 60 percent of the scams are related to, Romance scams?

Well, then maybe you go work with the dating sites. Maybe you go work with, to do a public awareness amount, right? Like, having the data of where this is happening could be the avenue to have really successful campaigns. Because if you think about, and I did this on LinkedIn, go check out my page and, and, follow my poll.

If you look at the most successful public awareness campaigns, right? The don't drink and drive. What did they used to do in those commercials? Gut wrenching stories about people that lost their lives.

Joe Casali: The car upside down flames. Yep.

Sean Carter: it made you, you didn't want, they didn't say don't drink, right? They didn't say don't have a good time.

They literally [00:24:00] said, Don't drink and drive the forest fires. Smokey the bear, right? They would come on. You were watching cartoons. It would come on and say, Hey, if you're camping, here's what happened. You kill all these animals. So when kids went camping with their parents, they were always asking, did you put out the fire?

Did you do all this? Right? Those are very successful. The seatbelt one, right? Remember the seatbelt? They tried to do seatbelts through public announcements, it didn't work. They had to make it a rule, click it or tick it,

Joe Casali: Click and I took it.

Sean Carter: Because there was no compelling thing behind it. There wasn't an automatic, don't wear a seatbelt and you die, right?

You can't prove one thing or the other. The other major failure in a campaign was the war, the say no to drugs, right? It just never worked. It had a catchy slogan. The materials are everywhere because you're asking people to not have joy, right? Some people look at doing that, drugs as joy. I'm struggling with, if we were to do a [00:25:00] campaign about internet safety or just in general being better with your technology so you don't fall for these scams, would that fall in line with the Don't drive drunk or would it be people saying you're just trying to blur my fun on roadblocks, right?

you're just trying to tell me roadblocks is bad and then the campaign feels because we need something that Ties what they're doing to that slave trade that's going on To the elderly person that can't retire now to the small businesses that have gone under because they no longer have cash because it got stolen to the consumer that now can't pay their rent and is out on the street.

We have to tie the behavior right? To that without insulting people, right? Which, you know, I would be okay with insulting people, by way. I'm, I'll be full interest there. I'm just thinking that the majority of people to do a network effect type thing [00:26:00] would not want to insult, people,

Joe Casali: we are in the down and dirty episode, so it's okay.

Sean Carter: Yeah, so you, you think about where would you do this, right?

You could have things at, you know, at schools, hand stuff out at the school year, have the high schools put things in the first day of school flyer for kids to look at and give to their parents. you know, put them in at the sports leagues, at the fields. There's gotta be There's got to be a way for people to first think it's okay that they've fallen far, because a lot of people have.

So it's like one of those things people are shy to say, I fell far. We got to make it, people feel comfortable in doing that, so we can learn from how did it work, what could you do to fix it. And then as, you know, for us serving financial institutions, like you said, adding that what to do next, That's what FIs need, right?

Like, they just have someone [00:27:00] bawling their eyes out in a branch that lost everything because they did something stupid. They don't need to be told there they did something stupid. They don't need, they need, what do I do to help this person, right? And that's the other piece, right? We, we saw, in the report on Zelle from that, committee, in Congress that they wanted to, you know, add definition of unauthorized and include that, you know, that would then give you, what do I do next?

Cause it would fall under the regular resolution. Here's how I get your money back. We need to, we need to take the education with an action step.

Joe Casali: So I want to jump in now. This episode is going to be long because I don't want to stop talking, but we're, we're, we're at our average episode time. I want to keep going and I want to be blunt with this stuff. Few years ago, I don't know what, maybe, you know, I think, I think a few years ago is now a decade ago.

So whenever it was, the CFBP got [00:28:00] formed and it was for consumer protection. It was to, to help people,protect themselves against things. But when you have a case, right, so let's use the Zelle case for a minute, and, and kittens, right? If, you want Zelle, Or let's even say it's an ACH. We're ACH people, let's make it an ACH.

If a person sends, if I send you money for the kittens you want to sell me, the two kittens, they're beautiful, so adorable. and I send you the money. It is my position that that is very sad because there were no kittens But it's also my position the bank didn't do that. The bank didn't take your money You sent your money and I get the feeling and not being political That the CFPB is trying to push to say well, they use Zelle, Zelle's responsible Maybe that means Zelle needs to come up with my my scam song.

That could be true [00:29:00] But The banks, the banks do a ton of just give them the money back. Just give them the money back. And that's very nice, I think, of the banks. And everyone thinks banks are big, bad banks. They had to go in their pocket to get this money. This money didn't, they didn't, they didn't sell you kittens.

It's not a thing of kittens. I don't know if that's going to come to a head in the next few years, where everyone gets their money back for scam kittens, or they finally put their foot down and say, No, no, you've got to be responsible. Did you touch the kittens? No. How much did the kittens weigh? Did they get their shots?

Have you seen the kittens? No. Don't buy the kittens. Don't send the money until you get the kittens.

Sean Carter: I will tell you what would not help our awareness campaign is if there was no liability to the consumer because then they're not going to care, right? Like if, if you didn't get in trouble for drunk driving or weren't held liable for an accident, maybe that campaign doesn't work, right? Like I do [00:30:00] think that it's going that way.

If you read that report, some of the recommendations, you know, it is sad when somebody, It's ripped off and, and maybe the salute. Now, the problem is if the banks came out and said, we're not going to give everybody this product, they would get in trouble for that too, right? So there's, you know, we're sensitive to banks and credit unions because they're our clients, but we're also consumers.

And I, you know, I would say it's unfair that if I do something like that, Okay. That my bank is responsible, right? I, you know, I, I believe that as well. So again, the, the point is to get people not to make the bad decision, right? How do we help? And maybe, maybe the CFPB, maybe that's where their focus should be, right?

They were there to protect consumers against themselves, right? By educating them about bank fees and lenders and, and all these other things they've done, right? Well, maybe, maybe part of what your charter should have been [00:31:00] is, is a little bit of education to people about what can happen when you have a tool like Zelle or online banking or ACH and, you know, it, it seems like if they're the We're going to get in trouble for this.

We're

Joe Casali: Yes, we're going to get in trouble this, but

Sean Carter: seems if they're the agency designed to protect consumers, so far, Oh, that's a good way to not go down the wrong path. So far, it seems to me, all they do is blame financial services companies.

Joe Casali: that I would agree with that in a very nice way. Sorry, CFPP. But yes, I would agree with that. I,

Sean Carter: there's no onus on the bad fraud guy, and there's no onus on the people that fell for it. It's, hey you, financial service provider, you should know what every single one of your customers is doing 24 hours a day. And oh, by the way, don't restrict product to people because you think they can't handle it.

Joe Casali: and, and just so I can say, [00:32:00] well, you took that out of context. These are, these are horrible cases for any, any fraud and you know, the romance scam and, and we've had stories where, you know, the guy, the, the elderly gentleman comes in with the, you know, the, the, The, the model and they, they take out money to go to the casino and they, they pull them aside and say, Hey, hey, you know, you know, that you, you might be experiencing financial fraud.

And they say, I'm okay with it. Don't worry about it. I mean, there is education happening, but it is, it's, you know, when that at the end of the day, all the money's gone, the, the house has been mortgaged, the kittens, you don't get the kit, even if you don't get the kittens or the puppies or whatever they are.

Those are sad stories. Those are not okay. It's very sad stories. but, as a call to action, and I'm looking at my screen, let me look at the camera. As a call to action, we need to do something different. And I'm putting out to the [00:33:00] audience, what can we do different? And, Sean doesn't know I'm going to say this, but Sean Natchez is having some sort of, Film competition, TikTok competition, whatever.

Should we sponsor that competition? I asked Sean, I had through this Adam, if you understand the credit card industry, they make money everywhere. except from the corporate perspective, right? The corporate perspective, the corporate guys are paying for credit card services. Consumer gets a, to, an easy way to, to pay for things.

The banks get a little bit of the, the payment. The processors get a little bit of the payment. The company pays for that. What if we propose, and now we're going to get the credit card companies mad, a little bitty tiny part of that fee goes to, a grant to fund education. And, you know, I thought about this on this call.

What if someone came up with an AI app that said, when you hear grandpa, bail kittens, it [00:34:00] goes fraud alert right on your phone, right? Cause you're on the phone. Maybe, you know, maybe that's a possibility, but. What are your ideas? What can we do differently? Does it go into the schools? Sean knows a company that is training within the school systems.

It's a company in school systems, not all the school systems. What can we do differently? I'm going to stop there. Sean, any final words?

Sean Carter: No, I think that's great and I hope all the listeners bombard us with ideas because, you know, we are very pro financial institution, as you can tell, but we do not want people losing money. Like, these are gut wrenching stories that we hear over and over again. Sometimes it's family, sometimes our members call us, and your heart's breaking over the phone as you're trying to help It's, it, it is awful. We need suggestions and things that we Don't even care if you don't think it'll work. Just, just throw it out. We need, we need, we need our audience to help [00:35:00] here, because I'm sure there'll be a couple of ideas that maybe we can run up the flagpole, and, and maybe they, they save a couple people.

no, great. Thank you, Joe. And, listeners, please subscribe and give us your ideas.

Joe Casali: And, and if nothing else, educate yourself. there's a movie out right now called City of Dreams. Talks about this, the slave trade. Right, right under our eyes. I, I, I watched a video years ago about, It started, these people, sorry, I'm still going, sorry. These people started out making a documentary.

I don't know if you remember the, the Chinese round up all the dolphins and they kill all the dolphins. They started out. And they ended up realizing these fisher boats had slaves on them. They, they took people and these people working this industry as slaves. This, these are real things in our world.

I know it's really hard to think that slave trade and John, do have number on, on [00:36:00] sex trade? What the, what the sex trade is? I mean, the amount of people in.

Sean Carter: Yeah, it's staggering.

Joe Casali: Staggering. Noble is a company looking at that stuff. educate yourself. If nothing else, if we, if we did nothing, find a, find a documentary on, on all these topics.

But give us your ideas. I am the master of the stupid idea. Spit it out first. Sean will tell me I'm stupid, but it's fine. It's, it's, it got out there. It's not stuck rolling around in my head saying, I think it was a really good idea. thank you for listening. thank you for joining me again, John.

Sean Carter: Thanks, Joe. 

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