Conversations from The Clearing House Conference

Episode Summary
In this episode of Wrestling Payments, host Joe Casali sits down with Phil Robin, SVP of Strategy at The Clearing House. They explore how financial institutions are approaching the challenges of modernizing payment operations, with a focus on risk, governance, and the rapid pace of change in new technologies.

Phil shares his perspective on the importance of building strong governance around artificial intelligence, noting that a clear framework helps institutions manage both cultural and operational risks as they introduce new tools. He highlights the varied approaches that banks take, shaped by their unique priorities and use cases, and stresses that inaction is often the greater risk as AI becomes more integrated into payment processes.

The conversation moves to emerging topics like stablecoin, tokenized deposits, and the steady growth of real-time payments (RTP). Phil explains how shifting regulatory clarity and evolving customer needs are driving experimentation, especially in areas like business-to-business and consumer-to-business payments. He points to the ongoing expansion of RTP and the need for broad acceptance to reach true scale, encouraging payment leaders to keep their eyes on both innovation and fundamentals.

Guest-at-a-glance

💡 Name: Phil Robin
💡 What he does: SVP, Strategy
💡 Company: The Clearing House
💡 Noteworthy: Guides strategy projects focused on payments innovation, governance, and risk, with deep expertise in real-time payments and industry modernization.
💡 Where to find him:https://www.linkedin.com/in/philrobin1/

Key Insights
Focus on Governance First When Adopting AI

Strong governance is the foundation of responsible AI adoption in payments. Before diving into the promise of artificial intelligence, organizations must set clear rules and accountability. This means building frameworks around data security, transparency, and risk appetite to ensure any AI use aligns with institutional priorities. When banks and payment providers define the “rules of the road” early, they give staff and leadership confidence to experiment and scale new tools. Governance also helps ease cultural resistance by making the organization’s approach to AI visible and consistent. With guardrails in place, teams can better focus on the practical benefits of AI—like automating manual tasks or unlocking growth opportunities—without losing sight of the risks. The key takeaway: don’t treat governance as an afterthought or a compliance hurdle. Make it the starting point for any serious AI strategy in payments.

Instant Payments Will Scale Through Use Case Diversity
Real-time payments (RTP) have moved from concept to reality, but true growth hinges on solving a wide range of business needs. Volume keeps hitting new records, yet the next wave of adoption will depend on how RTP addresses complex problems, especially in areas like business-to-business and healthcare payments. Each segment brings unique challenges around data, timing, and control. For example, B2B payments often involve detailed invoices and reconciliation, while brokerage transfers demand speed and confirmation. As more financial institutions explore RTP for these distinct cases, the network’s value and reach will expand. Building for use case diversity ensures that RTP is not just a faster way to pay, but a flexible tool that adapts to industry-specific workflows. Payment professionals should keep looking for unmet needs—these are where RTP can deliver the most impact and drive long-term adoption.

Stablecoin and Tokenization: Navigating Fast-Moving Terrain
The landscape for stablecoin and tokenized

Transcript

NEACH - Wrestling Payments - Phil Robin

Season 4, episode 2

[00:00:00] Phil Robin: new infrastructure can really take a long time to get to really where it's gonna scale to. I mean, if we really look back at when a TCH was getting going, there was a good 15 year period there before it really started.

[00:00:12] Welcome in everybody. You are listening to Wrestling Payments, a podcast where we help payment professionals contend with the challenges of modernizing their payments operations, and identifying ways to build for the future. If you are interested in payments, innovation and modernization, you are in the right place now.

[00:00:33] Let's get into it.

[00:00:40] Joe Casali: Hi, welcome to Wrestling Payments. I'm here today, with Phil Robin, from The Clearing House. Phil, do you wanna tell the audience about you?

[00:00:48] Phil Robin: Hey, Joe, great to be here. Happy to do that. Happy to give a little bit of background about myself and it, and it's great to be here. And, we're kind of recording this, in, December timeframe. So happy holidays to you and to the, to the audience who's, who's out there. so yeah, so I'm with The Clearing House, so a little bit on my background.

[00:01:07] Phil Robin: I sit within our strategy organization. I report to our chief strategy officer, and I've been in this role for a little over a year, and I kind of do a little bit of what that sounds like, right? It's strategy work. We, we think about The Clearing House. And, you know, sort of, we, we think about sort of the, out year horizons and, and, and where we're headed.

[00:01:29] Phil Robin: And we typically do a several projects of sort of a project oriented kind of approach with what we do. And so we socialize that within our governance structures of some of the things that we're interested in taking a look at. And we've got a relatively small team that, that I work with. but we, we execute.

[00:01:47] Phil Robin: Strategy projects, maybe it's, you know, as short as three or four weeks, but typically it could be eight to to 12 week kind of, payment strategy project. So, I've been doing that for a while. Prior to the, to The Clearing House was I was with an fi a regional, regional Fi, was there for about 12 years.

[00:02:04] Phil Robin: Number of different things. Wholesale payment strategy, was in the card organization, helped manage a card portfolio for a bit of time. And then earlier in my career, I was, with a, a large, card network. They're, they're no longer, I think, limited to a card network there, basically a payments network at this point.

[00:02:24] Phil Robin: And then, I had gotten my start, Joe in consulting, just, just regular, strategy consulting and did that for about a decade doing various kinds of supply chain strategy, distribution strategy, and the like. So that's a little bit, a bit of me in a nutshell. I'm here in our, The Clearing Houses, North Carolina based office, which is a interesting.

[00:02:49] Phil Robin: fortress, kind of kind of facility. So, again, so great, great to see you, great to be here and, and, and happy holidays everyone.

[00:02:56] Joe Casali: Excellent. I appreciate that. I did visit there once and was, was amazed at, at the technology you have there. so we,

[00:03:03] Phil Robin: yeah, it's a great facility. I actually for, I've been here for 15 months. Our team was actually down here last week and, and I did my first tour of what we call the, the knock, the network operation center. And so being able to see dashboards about what's going on with, you know, SVPCO or EPN or RTP, it's, it's a really interesting.

[00:03:25] Phil Robin: A place for be folks are able, able to get there and check it out.

[00:03:29] Joe Casali: Yeah. Excellent. and it, there's so much, there's so much you do if you're unfamiliar. The Clearing House does, does a TCH, it does instant payments. It does, wholesale payments. I forgot. SVPCO until you just

[00:03:43] Phil Robin: Yeah. Check image

[00:03:45] Joe Casali: you do an awful lot.

[00:03:46] Phil Robin: the SVPO and RTP and, and also token. DDA token. Yep.

[00:03:51] Joe Casali: Yeah. Forgot about all Token and the SVP, but yes, very, very well established, senior organization. How old are you now?

[00:04:00] Phil Robin: 170 plus years. I think the, the, the founding there was, 1853. So that predates a lot of things, at that point. Check was the predominant, if not the exclusive, instrument that was being, being used and, and a, a lot of progress, since there, since then, especially the last couple of decades.

[00:04:21] Joe Casali: Excellent. so I recently attended your annual conference and it was, it was an experience for me. I am so used to community banks. It was interesting to see, the folks, the speakers in the room. Weren't community banks. They were some of the biggest banks in the country. And, you know, I just wanted to kind of hit a couple of topics.

[00:04:43] Joe Casali: like, like everyone, AI is on the top of everyone's list. I'm wondering. and there were a couple of great sessions on AI at the event. I, I, I got a, a new,romance, he doesn't know it, but with the, the, the chairman and president of, Of, BNY Mellon, their, their approach to AI is fantastic.

[00:05:03] Joe Casali: And I'm wondering, from what you experience with your members, what do you think the biggest risks in AI is? Is it not doing anything? Is it doing too much? Is it, could you be in trouble for being an early adopter? can you be in trouble for being a late adopter interested in anything you have?

[00:05:21] Phil Robin: Right. So first off, you mentioned, mentioned the conference, which, I, I was there as well and great that you were able to be there and for anybody who has a TCHance to try to get to the next year's, highly encouraged that. And I think you're hitting on one of the, the really important points, really senior level conversations.

[00:05:37] Phil Robin: So yeah, a number of different CEOs, from, from different banks, and not only banks, but also payments. Institutions, were were there. And, and so it's a really good forum for being able to hear, hear how they're talking about payments, right? So in AI certainly was one of the topics. That was mentioned in a couple of different conversations, so b and YI think Wells certainly hit it and there was even a, a separate panel that, that AI AI touched on.

[00:06:05] Phil Robin: I, I think, you know, and, and yeah, so I think, part of what you mentioned there was really interesting take on AI from a cultural perspective and how important it is to think about it from a cultural perspective, not just from a technology perspective. And I think that makes a ton of sense, but as, as well, at the same time, I think we heard other perspectives.

[00:06:25] Phil Robin: From other banks. And I think if you sort of extract from that a little bit, context really matters. So, you know, each bank is in its own its own position. It's a, it's got its own context. It's got its own set of priorities. And I think different banks, different financial institutions are on different parts of the journey and or just may have different opportunities to solve different things at different times.

[00:06:49] Phil Robin: So I think, yeah, you heard a lot of that focus on. The culture and how to get the culture to embrace it. And really what I heard there, was a growth story. It was using AI as a way of thinking about, maybe finding a way to redeploy some resources and to go after growth in a specific way. And that could be a really good narrative for a lot of banks.

[00:07:13] Phil Robin: you could have other fis where the, the story may be deploying AI and some other use cases where maybe it's a little bit more narrow and there could be opportunities for some banks where they've got a, you know, a long history of doing, doing things that they haven't been able to automate yet. And so when they're bringing AI in, they may have that focus and say, look, we can go really deep.

[00:07:33] Phil Robin: And get some, things that the shareholders care about from that process. But the other thing that I think is important as well is, is, is, you know, and we've approached it this way, it's how do you get started? Like, where, where are the fundamentals for? How do you get started? With some of this, and one of the big things that you'll consistently hear from The Clearing House in terms of what we care about right, is, is protect, right?

[00:07:55] Phil Robin: So we, we, you know, it's one of our values, one of the things that we really care about is, you know, protecting the systems that we have, protecting the infrastructure that we have in helping to partner with the, the ecosystem to help them protect themselves. And so from that perspective, we'll start there.

[00:08:11] Phil Robin: And that's what we've done, in terms of a focus on making sure we have the right governance around ai. So we, we've started with that perspective of start there, what are the rules of the road? And make sure making sure as that's getting developed by the experts of, okay, here's what we could do with this.

[00:08:28] Phil Robin: It's getting to the right level of visibility and transparency with various different governance bodies and making sure that we're starting in a way in which everybody's comfortable, you know, in each each bank, each institution's gonna have maybe a little bit of a different risk appetite. And so starting there is, is a way to sort of get going along the path the right way,

[00:08:50] Joe Casali: Yeah, I, you know, you reminded me that was great. The, there's all these parts of AI and I think governance kind of gets left on the side. Sometimes people talk about the g whiz part of it and not talk about the governance. The conference is really good on focusing on the governance part as well. It's.

[00:09:09] Phil Robin: Yeah. I. so look from, from the, you kind of asked about the risk side. I, I was gonna, I was gonna go into that, you know, and sort of, I think you mentioned there, what are some of the biggest risks? I mean, I know, I think I heard at the conference some conversation around employee adoption. As being Yeah.

[00:09:25] Phil Robin: One of the ones, and I think that's related to the culture. I, I, I think that may probably is legitimate depending on what timeframe that we're talking about, but I, I, I think that that may be just a short term risk. I think employees are gonna get that adoption once they see the, how some of these tools can help.

[00:09:43] Phil Robin: I think you ultimately, you know, I think that may be a short lived risk where employees are gonna figure out there, there's a better way. Of getting some things done that these tools are actually better than maybe even some old tools that they've been using. So if we look at examples of, this goes back maybe 10 years ago before ai, you still had some RPA, some, you know, process automation going on, maybe in the card space, right?

[00:10:10] Phil Robin: Maybe with, you know, so some chargebacks processes, right? So though none of the really intelligence, but more of rules-based automation. I think you're seeing maybe AI getting deployed against some of those similar use cases and people are just finding out. AI is a better mousetrap for, for doing this.

[00:10:26] Phil Robin: It's a little bit more effective, et cetera. So I, I think maybe more of the risk, I think is, is, is maybe the, the doing nothing right. So I think there's enough proof points out there that there's value in these tools. And so I think if you're just gonna completely sit on the sidelines, I, I think that's where maybe you'd get some, some eyebrows raised.

[00:10:48] Joe Casali: That is super interesting. especially I wanna jump into the next topic, and I want to keep in mind. Staying on the sidelines or, or jumping in with both feet. Stablecoin again, lots of sessions on stablecoin, different approaches. really eye-opening as well. There were, there was a lot of, a lot of, learning moments being in the room with those sessions.

[00:11:11] Joe Casali: can you do just talk about, How you think The Clearing House is looking at stablecoin, and then same sort of question, stay on the sidelines, put your toe in. What, what should folks

[00:11:22] Phil Robin: so yeah. So first off, I just generally agree with you. This has been obviously a huge topic, right? And if we just wanna, it's been on, it's been a huge topic everywhere, right? I think every, everywhere I've been this year, this has been a topic people have been wanting. To touch on and talk about. I've probably talked about it in at least two different forums, this, this year.

[00:11:41] Phil Robin: And there's always a, a big interest in, in what everyone is doing in this space because the news is nonstop. even this, this late, this past week, we had some news, I think out of the OCC related to. National Trust charters and some provisional approvals around what's going on there. And so the, some of those approvals relate to some, some folks that are, you know, sort of in the stablecoin game.

[00:12:05] Phil Robin: So I think the headline there is, it's pretty fast moving, it's gonna continue to be fast moving. And if we sort of peak underneath about why is that, I think you, you know, with the Genius Act, obviously a lot of the uncertainty around. you know, how, how this was being viewed and how this was being,thought of in, in DC et cetera, you know, went away and at any time there's so much uncertainty.

[00:12:27] Phil Robin: You, you, you wind up with things stalling a little bit. So with that extra clarity, I think you sort of opened a, you know, just renewed interest in. Figuring out, you know, where this technology can really go and, and, and how to this play in it. And I think that's probably the most important thing to be really thinking about is, clients and customers and, and customer needs and problems that are, that, that are there that you think you can help them solve.

[00:12:59] Phil Robin: Right. you know, that may not be so the predominant use case that's there right now with stablecoin, I think the biggest volume there is you sort of on and off, for, from crypto trading. Right. And so that, yeah, that, depending on who you are, depending on the profile is you may want to help your clients with that.

[00:13:15] Phil Robin: But, but you may not, you may have. Other things that you're prioritizing. So I, I think one of the things that we're gonna see as we roll forward is people try to think really hard about where this, this whole space is going and who their clients are and what they might be using it for in the future. If it's, if it's not this very early on use case, it could be remittance, it could be, you know, some element of B2B cross border.

[00:13:42] Phil Robin: where, where folks are gonna double click and really think about what their play is in this space. and I think part of figuring out that, you know, what might your play be in this space is gonna be, you know, it's not just stablecoin, right? So there's more and more discussion around tokenized deposits and you know how people might want to figure out, you know, is that the right play versus, versus stablecoin, depending on what they're trying to solve for.

[00:14:08] Joe Casali: I think that's fascinating. I'm, I'm gonna talk about RTP in a minute, but staying here for a second. it used to be whenever you started to talk about RTP and especially ISO 20022, people immediately started to talking about international payments. I haven't been involved in a conversation about stablecoin recently where tokenization hasn't popped up.

[00:14:31] Phil Robin: To tokenized deposits. Yeah, I think that's right. I think, and again, it's an incredible small compressed timeframe. I think if, at the beginning of the year if we were having this conversation, it, it might not have been the case. I mean, we would've been hearing and thinking and hearing a lot about stablecoin and a little bit less about tokenized deposits.

[00:14:48] Phil Robin: But I agree with you. I think that conversation was there at the conference. I think it was part of the. Part of the panel discussion was around tokenized deposits. There's a little bit of a debate, right? There's pros and cons, between, you know, what's going on with stablecoin versus what's going on with, with tokenized deposits.

[00:15:06] Phil Robin: And then, you know, I think there's certainly some interest in, you know, the regulatory environment, right? And so there you we're. Certainly, you know, you, you'll hear and you'll see the conversation start to evolve around. these national trust charters, I think, and, how people feel about, you know, that being in place and sort of supporting one set of rules for a specific kind of issuer versus, you know, tokenized deposits being,you know, potentially the play for your depository financial institutions.

[00:15:36] Phil Robin: And so that might be, those might be interesting conversations as, as we roll forward here into the new year.

[00:15:42] Joe Casali: Really, really interesting. I am, we're certainly gonna spend time here next year, exploring both of those topics. And I, I, you know, it's so funny, I don't recall an actual specific RTP report. but it, it's clear you, you know, you are, you're approaching mature maybe, in my opinion. It, it's not a, it's not a great idea anymore.

[00:16:07] Joe Casali: It's, it's real, it's a, you guys are doing a lot with RTP. Your volume's growing. Your dollar value's growing. I think you probably led the way on. Limits. Right. Went to 10 million. Fed followed you. The Aach H is now looking, Hey, well, if they did it well, we should do it. any, any state of the union report about RTP.

[00:16:29] Phil Robin: we're, you know, we're continuing to grow. I know you had Jim Calano on relatively recently, so. He's, he's the expert there. It's great working with, with Jim. I've partnered with him on a couple of different things, but one of the things I continue to see is we, we set records pretty much every week it looks like there's a new volume record, so we feel really good about that.

[00:16:51] Phil Robin: We feel really good about where we are from a market perspective. and we are excited about different use cases. That have pretty good potential for the next couple years. I mean, you know, it's interesting, you know, your, your commentary on where we are in the cycle, I think, I think you're, you're generally correct, right?

[00:17:09] Phil Robin: There's some maturity happening here, but new infrastructure can really take a long time to get to really where it's gonna scale to. I mean, if we really look back at when a TCH was getting going, you know, there was a good 15 year period there before it really started. Started to go and it, you know, sort of really depends on use cases.

[00:17:29] Phil Robin: We're in year, year eight and we're, yeah, we really like where we are. We like the trajectory, but really what we like is when we're looking out in the future and the amount of use cases that are still out there, to, to, to really come to scale. that, that's interesting. I, I wouldn't take my eye off this space.

[00:17:48] Phil Robin: if I was, if I was in payments, there's, there's a, there's a lot to still come for RTP and for the use cases as we roll forward.

[00:17:57] Joe Casali: Yeah, it's, it's really weird for me. I am a trainer here as well, and I'm training all on the, Accredited faster payments professionals. So I'm elbow deep in, RTP and, and other faster payment systems right now. So it's like, isn't everyone talking about this, in,

[00:18:14] Phil Robin: Yeah, I mean in terms of like, it'd be interesting, yeah, from a, from a, from a, 'cause I think you asked a little bit about the, the growth perspective and, and where we're hearing that a little bit, and where we're starting to see it. Right. I, I think there's probably a bunch of sub use cases, but in my mind there's a couple of things that, that maybe group a couple of sub use cases and, and one of those really is around where there's complexity and complexity related to the data.

[00:18:39] Phil Robin: Right. So if we think about B2B payments and supplier payments that have invoices, or even if you think about healthcare a little bit as well, there can be some comple complexity around that. that's, that's one of the ones where you can think of RTP and you can think of ISO and, and data as there being a lot of opportunity out there in the, in the future, based on the, what the message can do.

[00:19:01] Phil Robin: and the other one I think is important and I've, we've had a lot of conversations with, with FIS recently. around, around this, and it's, it's the use cases where you really do have one, one or two of the parties involved or, or both that really want to, either really care about instant or they really care about the timing of the payment, right?

[00:19:21] Phil Robin: So it's that that control, it's that ability to control when the payment is going to be released and when the payment is gonna get there. And having that, perspective of knowing. That it's that it got there. Right. And sort of knowing and having that sort of alert back, the, the where, where, you know, that it, that it was there.

[00:19:38] Phil Robin: So you can think of, yeah. Brokerage is, is one of the ones that sort of fits this description where you've got both parties wanting an element of instant, right? So if you're trying to move money from a bank account to a brokerage account and you've got a reason for really wanting to. You know, whether what, depending on whatever you're doing at the brokerage, you want to, typically, you want to move relatively quick if there's something that's happening there, and the broker wants you to get the funds there, you know, as, as quickly as, as possible as well.

[00:20:07] Phil Robin: So brokerage is one that, we're paying attention to.

[00:20:09] Joe Casali: Taking notes as I go. and, and, I didn't wanna keep you too long. I wasn't able to get to every session. Is there anything I haven't mentioned that I missed?

[00:20:19] Phil Robin: Well, you know, one of the spaces that we're paying attention to as well, just overall, I think is what's going on in C2B. I think the overall C2B space is pretty interesting. you know, RTP can play there in terms of, RF. And there's a bunch of sub use cases within consumer to business, right?

[00:20:37] Phil Robin: And so there's more experimentation that's going on there. There's a bunch of use cases. So if you're paying, pay, paying a bank bill, there's some experimentation going on there with RFP and there continues to be just a con a ton of discussion and dialogue with what happens, with, with, with what's called pay by bank, right?

[00:20:55] Phil Robin: But what we really mean there is effectively. You know, it's a consumer to business payment and you're typically, you're gonna have a, a, a third party data aggregator, et cetera, somewhere involved in that, where there's an open banking, you know, play there where, which ultimately winds up in a web debit, right?

[00:21:12] Phil Robin: And so, a web debit, a TCH transaction. And so I, I think we're seeing in some, in some pockets that there's a lot of interest in what's happening there, right? I don't know that that is. Scaling, scaling, but there's some, some abuse cases where there's some green shoots there. And again, I what you're seeing is folks trying to solve a problem where there really is an interest in, from the consumer side and from the business side wanting to make that somewhat of an instant payment or even if it's a synthetic instant payment.

[00:21:44] Phil Robin: So, so that's, that's happening. there's some challenges that happen. You know, when that transaction is executed that way, right? Some of that's on the back end. and one of the things that can happen is just, you know, there's can be confusion, right? Because the, the structure of what goes on with a web debit, it's not always, as useful as it could be in terms of the operational complexity, if the consumer has an issue with how the transaction was executed.

[00:22:12] Phil Robin: So I think one of the things to pay attention to rolling forward is. Is alternatives to that approach. And an RFP is one of the ways in which you can, I think, provide a, differentiated experience from a, a bank led experience where some of those pain points with a, a pay by bank experience, can be solved, right?

[00:22:33] Phil Robin: The, the instant message, the security, the limited amount of data that scope flowing between parties with an RFP and then a A an RTP credit back. You know, it's a, it's a very targeted set of data and, and, and that transaction can also occur in, in a pretty, robust risk environment. And I, I, I know that that's one of the things that we're hearing that consumer oriented banks really are paying a lot of attention to.

[00:22:59] Phil Robin: So RFP is one of the ones that I would say pay, pay some attention to as we spin forward the next couple years.

[00:23:05] Joe Casali: so this wasn't billed as a, predictions, session, but if you, 'cause I hear a lot, a lot, a lot of interest in ISO 20022, extending that, being able to use that and, the RFP framework. Any predictions of what 2026 looks like for either of those? It's gonna have any, killer app pop out. Any, any, any predictions at all.

[00:23:31] Phil Robin: I'm gonna, I'm gonna, stay, out of trouble and not get into the predictions business, but I, I think at a very high level, you'll continue to see more activity. I think there will be some headlines in 26 that, that, that people will say, okay, that's, that's some interesting progress and what's going on.

[00:23:48] Phil Robin: Some of these things are. take time to go out of the sort of experimentation stage. And when we're talking about payments, payments 1 0 1 is around acceptance. And you need, you need participation on both sides. So one of the things I hear, I hear a ton of interest on the biller side, on the merchant side, on the wholesale side, and, you know, we feel good about, what that looks like.

[00:24:12] Phil Robin: It, it does take a while to sort of create that reach that's necessary on the consumer side for things to scale. So I think that's, that's one of the things to, to watch where that's one of the things that just natural, it's a natural part of payments where, you know, some of these things just take, a little bit of time for the market to get to where it wants to go.

[00:24:31] Joe Casali: so that's really all I had. I do wanna thank you. I, I've been invited to the, you know, this conference in the past. I, I never actually got a TCHance to go. It's the end of the year. It's so hard. I knew from session one that something different was happening at this conference. I, it was a different tone, a different perspective.

[00:24:52] Joe Casali: I encourage, you know, if you have the opportunity to go to this event, you really should go to this event. It definitely offers a different take on payments. any final words?

[00:25:02] Phil Robin: Yeah, no, super glad that you were able to make it. I agree with you. Last year was, was my third, trip to the conference. I had previously been as a, as a client and, and participant of The Clearing House, and so I'd been able to recently sort of see it from, from both perspectives and yeah, we want to design it where the industry is getting value from it.

[00:25:23] Phil Robin: So just highly encourage. Those who are able to get a TCHance to, to get there, to, to do what they can to make it.

[00:25:29] Joe Casali: Excellent. Well, thank you for joining me. I appreciate it.

[00:25:32] Phil Robin: Thank you, Joe. Great to meet you. I appreciate it. happy hour list.

[00:25:35] Joe Casali: and thanks. You too. Oh, yes, and everyone, thank you.

[00:25:37] On behalf of NEACH, your trusted resource and payments and our guests, I'd like to thank everyone for tuning into the podcast. If you've enjoyed this episode and want to hear more about payments, innovation and modernization, you can find The Wrestling Payments Podcast on the podcast page of NEACH.org or wherever you subscribe to podcasts.

[00:25:59] Just search for Wrestling Payments in your podcast app. Thanks for listening.