The Hole Story - Golf Podcast

The Story of Miller Golf Design with Troy Miller

• BestBall • Season 4 • Episode 28

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Most golf courses are designed with the intention to challenge, but Troy Miller’s approach aims to inspire community, accessibility, and preservation—bringing a new kind of strategy to the game. From his deep roots with Pete Dye to transforming Charleston’s historic Muni course into a masterpiece of design and community impact, Troy’s work is redefining what golf can be.

You’ll hear about the profound impact of community-driven projects—how making golf accessible can foster neighborhoods, preserve local history, and even solve stormwater challenges. Troy shares insights on his philosophy of short grass as the ultimate equalizer, and how his projects serve both serious enthusiasts and the everyday golfer seeking fun and fairness.

Whether you're a golfer, architect, or community leader, Troy’s insights will inspire you to think differently about how golf can serve everyone—not just the elite, but the everyday player who wants to connect, enjoy, and be proud of their local course.

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SPEAKER_02

You move from this very Parkland setting into something that feels much more lynx-like. Um, and you get to play Rodan, Cape, Road, and short in that order in this kind of corner of the golf course that becomes its own little amphitheater.

SPEAKER_00

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of the Whole Story Podcast. Jonathan, another golf architect.

SPEAKER_01

Man, I'm telling you, I every time I just every time I hear golf architect, I I really need to buy a golf course so I can have someone build the stuff. I think it's just so much fun. Yeah, just get you a big piece of land and start getting somebody to come push some dirt for you. I'll just get a backhoe. Although anybody that knows me is probably pretty sure I shouldn't be on any type of um heavy machinery, not because of drug usage or anything like that, just because I don't know how to use any of the buttons and levers and things. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00

You can do it. Right? It's like Michael Scott when he gets on the uh the forklift in the office, right?

SPEAKER_01

In the warehouse. My father, my my wife, and many other people who know me for a long time would absolutely tell you, I cannot learn. There's no ability in my I just don't have it. Um and I'm okay with that. Instead, we get to talk to guys like Troy Miller, uh, helped redesign the Muni down in Charleston, which I um uh ashamedly have still not played. Uh maybe this summer, I don't know. I feel like every time we've tried, it just hasn't worked for us. But uh Robbie's played it, it was incredible for and and lived up to the expectations as a few golf courses do.

SPEAKER_00

I I think it blew it away. I think I think I was expecting one thing and got that and even more. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And yeah, go ahead. I would say the same thing with this, like being able to talk to someone and the fun part at the very end after we got off, he mentioned he's literally across the street. So this wasn't just a project that he took on because it was there. Um, it was literally something that he's been close to his entire life. So uh always interesting to hear the brain of someone that's designing and building the places that torture us. So yeah. That torture us, sure.

SPEAKER_00

But he said there's a way to do it, we just hadn't figured it out yet. Maybe it maybe it's not trying to take driver off the first T or the you know off the T every time. So we'll continue trying to learn, but maybe through osmosis and talking to all these architects, we can actually learn what we're supposed to be doing uh and then put it into play. But yeah, great chat with Troy Miller. Um he is doing some incredible things in the game, and I love his passion for the municipal, the local government, the state park golf we talked about a lot, and just making it to where um he makes not only great golf courses but great hangs for people for communities. So really cool interview. Y'all are gonna enjoy this one. We could have kept going. Like I I could talk to him and listen to stories for a long time.

SPEAKER_01

We've spent time b on both ends of the recording talking more than what we just showed here. So yeah, I could all day long with architects.

SPEAKER_00

Yep. Well, it's uh it's a longer interview. So a quick shout out to our friends at Summit Golf Brands, B Drati, Zero Restriction, Fairway and Green. Go to any of their sites, use Best Ball 20, get some awesome gear: hoodies, vests, polos, uh pants, any all the above. Like they've got it. It's really good stuff for any season out there. So check them out. Use Best Ball 20. But let's jump to our interview with Troy Miller. All right. Well, our guest today on the Hull of Story Podcast, Mr. Troy Miller. How are you doing, sir?

SPEAKER_02

I'm doing great. Thank you very much for having me.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, we uh we appreciate the uh just the opportunity to meet folks like you that have done incredible things in the game. You have designed, restored, built just incredible golf courses, which of course we all love. But uh, but yeah, it's been it's an honor to one get here and talk with you. We were just talking before we hit record, and you have a lot of podcast experience. We want we do want to give your shout out to your wife uh for her off the radar podcast. So quickly, tell us about that one more time.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so off the radar, hosted by Emily Gracie. She is a broadcast meteorologist uh and uh has been doing this podcast for a little over three years now, um, mostly about human interest weather stories. Uh she's covered everything from the uh famous Red Seat Ted Williams home run and talking about the physics behind it and the history and the wind direction that day that made it possible to uh to talking about golf and the weather conditions and how it affects golf, both as as you play it as well as from um we I've actually been on talking about uh climate change and golf course architecture. So um she covers all kinds of stuff and uh it's a it's a pretty cool, it's a good listen. Off the radar.

SPEAKER_00

Off the radar. I love it. Well, uh, that's it. Thanks for joining us today. That's actually really all we wanted to talk about. Oh man. Well, you you're doing some uh some awesome things in the game, uh, but we ask all our guests kind of as we as we jump into it, like when did golf become a thing for you? When did you fall in love with this game?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, for me, uh I am the son of a golf professional. I grew up in the game and had a club in the hand in my hand from the time I was 14 months old or before even. Uh, there was a picture in the uh Hilton Head paper of me putting on the putting green uh during the Monday qualifier of Harbortown at Seapines when I was uh, I want to say I was a little over two years old or maybe a little less than. Um but uh you just you just missed the cut, right? Yeah. If I'd have made that two-footer. Um yeah, so my dad was chasing it at that time. He played a little bit on tour in the late 70s and early 80s, and um, and then has been a golf professional, PGA professional for over 50 years now. Uh was the held uh a lot of different roles at Kiowa Island at the resort, um, and actually shared an office with Pete Dye when we were building the ocean course in 1989 and 1990. And that was really my first brush with golf course architecture as a nine-year-old kid. Um, and so Pete used to take me out at the ocean course and show me what they were doing. And my dad tells a great story about me uh Pete sitting me in a bunker behind the old 11th screen, and it was eight feet deep. And I was a snotty-nosed little nine-year-old kid, and all I could see was the sky. And I looked at him and I said, Why didn't you make it deeper? And he called the guy over and we scooped two more feet out of the bottom, and he goes, What do you think? And I said, That's good. And that was uh that was the beginning of my architecture career.

SPEAKER_01

You're the reason why people hit triples whenever they get into the front bunker. I'll tell you, it's interesting.

SPEAKER_02

The 11th hole there, that that back bunker during the 98th World Cup, Davis Love was in there and did not get out. That were that bunker and the green complex have since changed. They had actually moved over roughly about 10 yards um during one of the renovations that I was fortunate to work on in the early 2000s. So yeah, a lot of history there at Kio with Pete and uh certainly in the golf business. It's in my blood. I tell people all the time I'm just a trunk slamming son of a golf pro.

SPEAKER_00

So, how did you decide to go not the golf pro route, but say, hey, I want to build and shape these things?

SPEAKER_02

Well, you know, I think it's interesting. I grew up um being exposed to Pete Dye uh later to Tom Fazio as he came and renovated Osprey Point and was building over the rivercourse of Kiowa. So, I mean, a lot of it I have my father to thank for having these incredible opportunities early in my life. From a golf professional perspective, um I I came to my dad at one point and said that I wanted to be in the golf business and and he kind of begged me not to become a club pro. Um, you know, it's a business that has evolved tremendously over the last 50 years. Um, and uh I think um my exposure to Pete particularly, um, and then inevitably when I was an undergraduate at UNC Asheville, um, every golf course inside the city limits of Asheville was a Donald Ross golf course. And I got to get a little better understanding of the golden age. Um, and from there, I think it was I was kind of hooked. And I knew I wanted to be in the golf industry. And at one point, my undergraduate degree was in math. I thought about research and development and kind of go on the titleist route, did my undergraduate research on the coefficient of restitution and Newton's second law, and um, and uh inevitably ended up fortunate enough to uh to do a little bit more work with some other architects and uh go to the University of Georgia and get my master's in golf course architecture with a group of guys that were all there at the same time that um have really it it's been a great story in municipal golf with Will Smith and Mike McCartan, who are the co-founders of the National Lynx Trust. All three of us were at Georgia together studying golf course architecture. Um, and uh I will never forget Will saying cheap golf doesn't have to be mean bad golf. And uh that's certainly something that has stuck with me over the years. So Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Do you do you tend to lean more towards the municipal or public golf, or is it more, I mean, at some point it's a business and you gotta go where the work is, right?

SPEAKER_02

Well, for me, you know, and from an architecture perspective, I've been fortunate to be selective about projects I work on from a pure design perspective. A lot of my day job is as chief development officer for a company called Southworth. We develop private club communities around the world. And so I have seen every end of the spectrum from the$18 municipal golf course up to the top of the top private clubs in in the world. Um and there is a need for all of it. Um and what I like to see is um finding that kind of um that that balance in all of the markets to be able to serve all the markets. And there's a lot of places where certain elements of that are overserved and certain elements of that are woefully underserved. Um and so DOF at its core is about bringing people together and creating community. And um, to me, I think that's something you can do at all levels, municipal through uh the private club sector. And there's some great examples of all of that.

SPEAKER_00

Well, let's let's talk about the Charleston Muni. I got to play when we're recording this uh mid-March, and I got to play it last week for the first time. Jonathan and I tried to play it, what, a year or so ago. We pulled in the parking lot, the bottom fell out, right? So it was one of those days where it just wasn't gonna happen, but got to experience it last week for the first time, and it was incredible. I love, I mean, besides it being like low 40s um for the high, like it was it was outstanding. So talk to us about how that project came about, how you know you were you know chosen for uh the the work there and then just kind of the influence that you put into it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, absolutely. So I, you know, from from my perspective, born and raised here in Charleston, um, my father grew up here in Charleston. His first job in golf was at Charleston Municipal. Um, my grandfather caddied at the golf course in the 30s, got a lot of family history there. Um, I I I I definitely grew up playing the golf course as well. And um always kind of had this hope, and and you always would hear people around the community talk about what a good place it could be and how it had great bones and how it had been neglected. And uh I went away and worked for Landmark Land Company for about 15 years, developing golf courses around the world. That's the Oak Tree logo, the same guys that developed Kew Isle and Oak Tree Golf Club, PGA West and La Quinta. Um, and so I came back to Charleston in 2015 as Mayor Joe Riley was exiting after a 40-year stint as our mayor. And uh Mayor Riley had always said, I want to see something, I'd I'd love to see something done with me and me. And when I moved back to town, I volunteered. I said, Anything you need, I'm here and happy to do it. Um, his term was ending. Mayor John Tecklenberg was coming in, and Mayor Tecklenberg had a chief of staff, Rick Giroux, who was a golfer and probably for the first time in City Hall, had a representative that was a golfer, which really kind of created a catalyst to be able to move it forward. So that was 2015, and it was a good five years before we actually put a shovel in the ground. We started the Friends of the Muni in an effort to raise awareness as well as funds to go forward with this renovation. Um, the design had kind of been floating around in the back of my head for a while, given the history of Rayner golf here in Charleston, between the Country Club of Charleston and Yeaman's Hall. And so as we started to really dig in on it, the Rayner influence was something that really was only for 1% of the audience. I I, you know, I we were we were very aware of the fact that this was a high profile project for the city of Charleston and really needed to make sure that we served a lot of uh a lot of factors. Flooding, you know, trying to be a help to what is a major issue for the city of Charleston in terms of flooding, accessibility and affordability, making sure that we were maintaining both of those things in the market and then telling a story about the history of this place that's been here for a hundred years almost, and um, and really was it was the first golf course in South Carolina to desert to desegregate. Um it was uh it's got just an incredible history. And so there are a lot of factors that went into how we went about building out this program and this project. And then in uh 2019, uh there was a bond referendum to fund Porsche uh recreation bond to fund a portion of the project along with the rate the fundraise that had been done over the last few years with the Friends of Muni. And so that's what set it off. And uh, and to be honest, I think a lot of people were a little taken back as we started to move dirt and started to build the golf course because the plan certainly didn't show to the full extent the Raynor influence that it ended up being. Um, but it was such a great opportunity to bring that style of architecture to the general public that uh doesn't have an opportunity to see it. Most of Rayner and McDonald's golf courses around the country are private. Most of us aren't ever going to play them. So the opportunity for people to come in and play as locals an$18 round of golf on a golf course that includes a Redan and a short and a Brits and tell the story of those template holes and some of that golden age uh architecture that was that was just so prevalent in our game today, um, was was really a uh uh an ultimate goal of mine to to hopefully educate and to provide access to something that generally is not accessible in the game of golf.

SPEAKER_00

How would you describe for for those that don't know uh and you listed out some of the template holes or what we know of them today, how would you describe Rayner's style uh for somebody that, like you said, is not someone that appreciates it or kind of has dug into that before?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I think you know, one of the interesting things is that Rayner was not a golfer. I mean, he was an engineer and kind of a self-proclaimed geek to some degree. And, you know, he came by came to the game by way of being a surveyor on National Golf Links for CB McDonald. CB McDonald was really the driving force behind these template holes and the ideal golf course that he built at National Golf Links and inevitably uh at Chicago golf with the template and then on from there with Rayner. You know, a lot of Rayner's style, the square greens is uh obviously very unique. Um and the uh the steep faces, very engineered look of these golf of these golf holes is something that to me, uh I think it really plays well in a low country environment where there's not a lot of elevation change, and the features really are the things that stand out on the golf course. So those steep bunker faces, the this the edges of the greens, everything, they create these sharp edges and these great shadow lines that really lead the way in the golf courses. Um, you know, I think that's something that uh and from a perspective of Pete Dye, you know, you look at a lot of his stuff and things that I've worked on over the years, those long lines along the line of play with these steep, steep faces and flat bottom bunkers, that's something that I think we, you know, that Pete was greatly influenced by Rayner's style as well. Um the templates themselves, as you kind of like template 101, a lot of Rayner and McDonald's golf courses, the the par threes are the ones that people remember the most. They almost all have a Rodan, a short, a an Eden, and uh a Britz. Uh, there's there's some variety and variants in that to some degree, but generally those are the ones that people remember. Um, and then you go along from there and some of the more recognizable holes like Cape and Road, all of these things, by the way, are all inspired by and the strategy behind are all influenced by great holes of the British Isles. So in C.B. McDonald's book, Scotland's Gift, he describes the ideal golf course and talks about the uh genesis of each of these template holes and where they come from. And so, you know, there's there's a couple of them come from St. Andrews and the old course. Um, there are there are places that no longer exist. The Barritz comes from golf course that no longer exists in France. And then when you go out to North Berwick and you get to see the original Redan, um, it's a it's a great thing to geek out on as a golf course architect. So um, so that's that's generally how the templates come to be. And um, yeah, and Rayner and I tell people all the time that no 148-year-old is having a greater comeback than Seth Rayner because his style of architecture is so popular today. And I I attribute a lot of that to the success of Muni and the interest in Muni to just how much his architecture is really having uh having a moment.

SPEAKER_00

So what was that like having the responsibility of oh, here's what I want to do, and I'm gonna emulate or use inspiration from uh Raynor McDonald to to kind of redo this course. What was that kind of weight or responsibility that you were carrying as like the guy to actually do this?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I think for one thing, it's interesting because the golf course was originally built in 1929, just a couple of years after Country Club of Charleston and Yeaman's Hall. So the only examples of golf in Charleston were Rayner golf courses, and it was kind of a bad game of telephone. And so there was there was some basis to lean into this as we got there. There were some of these what had now atrophied down into little satellite dish greens that were probably a third of the size they originally were on these large rectangular pads that were originally designed in the in the 1920s. So there were some elements of this that were already there that were just waiting to to be kind of have a hundred years of dust knocked off of them. From my perspective, getting the templates right was really important. Um, just because there is uh so much history around it and so much uh research that's been done around it, um, leaning on particularly Yaman's Hall and some of the templates out there to make sure that um the strategy of those golf holes was emulated. And I think that's one of the things to understand about templates versus replica holes is that templates are about strategy. They're about setting up a variety of golf shots to best test the golfer. Um, and they're not necessarily going to look the same in every environment, but they are generally going to drive the same strategy as to how you should play the golf hole. So I did my best to educate our shapers. Um, you know, we did take some trips over the country club into Yaman's Hall and then go back and try to do as the best we could in trying to mimic some of the uh severity of slopes, um, some of and and also understanding that we could get a little more aggressive at Muni because the greens were never going to be as fast as what you get in the private club setting. So it allowed for the contours to be a little bolder and a little bit more true to 100 years ago, where greens didn't roll 11 or 12 on a step meter, but rather six or seven. Um, and so trying to get to a point where the contours really could be seen and played um with limited green speed was a big part of the goal there. Um yeah, but the the weight of all of this, um, I I think I definitely went to bed at night thinking about what the the architecture geeks in the world would say about the the templates and and the execution of those. Um but more importantly, I just I wanted to make sure that it was a golf course that was enjoyable to play for the local Charleston crowd, for something that they can be proud of, something that could be unique and different, and as historic as the town that we live in. Uh we have a lot of firsts in Charleston, and being the first golf course was one of those at Harleston Green in 1739. The first shipment of golf clubs came to North America through Charleston. So we have a great historical. To tell here. And I wanted the golf course to emulate that in as many ways as possible.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you say knock the dust off, and that's a little bit of an understatement. Because if you're talking about redesigning greens, so what was it like when that first probably wasn't a real shovel, it was more like a backhoe. What was it like when that first backhoe, whatever, digs off the green and you're like, well, I guess we're in this now.

SPEAKER_02

That's right. And that is that's an experience that in every every time that you start a new project and you put a shovel in the ground, it it gets real real fast. Um and especially in the golf course architecture world, timing is everything and making sure, you know, you you you want to get it right. You got to make a thousand decisions in a short period of time, but you also want to be mindful of the clock and make sure that you're getting it done. And we were, this was a project that worked incredibly well for a lot of outside reasons. This was during COVID that we were building. Um, and so COVID actually fully hit about 60 days or 45 days into construction, which in a lot of ways helped because we were trying to keep nine holes open while we built the other nine. That went out of the window when COVID happened. And so it there was a lot of factors that that happened here that made this place happen. But um I will say that it was it became easier as we went through, and some of the biggest changes to the golf course on the back nine, where we were really were trying to help with the drainage, building the new pond between 11, 12, 13, and 14. That that you know, that was your traditional almost new construction site that you kind of looks like a bomb went off. That um for most people walking on, they go, I have no idea how this is ever going to come back together. But um, I've been fortunate to be a part and uh and to lead on a lot of ground up golf courses over the course of my career. And um, there's a lot of people who don't like to see the sausage being made. I uh I suggest they come back during grassing um because there's there's a lot of steps in between.

SPEAKER_01

Well, and this isn't like a golf course where you finish it and then you leave. This is in your backyard, like you go play this thing. So what's it like running into the guy that's that's come and played this since he was 10 years old?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Having those conversations in the clubhouse.

SPEAKER_02

You know, as an architect, you gotta have thick skin to begin with. Um but um but in all honesty, I this is it's the most meaningful project I've ever done. Um I've I've done projects in you know four different continents at the highest level in golf, and I uh this one means the most to me because it is a remarkable and humbling to go walk into that clubhouse and have somebody come up to you and shake your hand and say thank you for what you've done here. Um and uh it it means something to people, and this place always has meant something to people. So when you talk about the weight of doing this project, that was where it really was was in all of these folks that make their home here that that Muni is such a big part of their lives. Um, but today, I mean, you get the one-off of kind of the place is too hard, I liked it before, better. Um, and you know, it's it's interesting. And the first time the golf course got raided, you know, we had a lot, we had the golf course raiders from the you know, the local association that was going around with the clipboards trying to put a course rating on it, and they'd never seen anything like this because they're they're used to raiding a lot of the resort golf courses that you see throughout the Carolinas. And, you know, there's a few spots where they were like, well, we don't we don't even know what to do with this. But the difficulty around the greens is really what drives it. Um, and I wanted it to be that way. You know, as Ross said, I mean, you have to protect par around the green. And I believe the golf course is more playable today for the average player than it was before. We shifted a lot of the hazards and the lost balls further out of play, made the fairways wider, but around the greens, you you you got to think your way around and put yourself in a position that you believe you can execute the next shot. And um, that's what my general takeaway is for folks that talk about the difficulty of the greens and you know that it's it's like putt-putt because the greens are so severe in places. And I think our first green, the double plateau, I I tell people all the time, if you quit, we want you to quit early. And um, that green is definitely a sign that it's it's a new day and this is a new place, and and um yeah, you better hold on to your hat because the the green complexes are gonna challenge you.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I love did you reference earlier uh that 11 through 14 stretch, and I've told people since last week that in my opinion, and I'm no one of these golf uh course architect nerds that know everything and anything about it, but I've told people that stretch 11 through 14 is maybe one of the favorite stretches of golf holes on a course that I've ever played. So it was it was that fun, that enjoyable, that challenging, and just it's it was incredible. And so, one, thank you for that. Um, and I love the fact as we were talking earlier about how your wife even kind of helped give the suggestion, and actually the this needs to be built up a little higher to protect the flooding that happens occasionally, right? So tell that story.

SPEAKER_02

So, yeah, so that is one of the things that as we talked about, there there had there were a lot of kind of central themes about how this project was going to come off. And the the holes along the Stone O River pre-renovation, in July of 2019, the back mine was closed 21 of 30 days due to water issues. It was not passable. That was thunderstorms as well as high tide, just regular high tides would flood the 13th and 15th holes and the 14th hole at that time uh along along the Stono River because of these elevated tide levels as well as these elevated storms that we were getting, these five to seven inch thunderstorms that we've that have become commonplace throughout the low country uh in the summertime. And so uh during uh before construction started, I was giving an interview talking about what we were gonna do to combat and fix these holes. And I've constantly talked about this really being a project to protect the integrity of this golf course for generations to come. And as I'm saying that, and I say we're gonna elevate the 13th hole two or three feet to protect from these rising tide levels. Um, I come off the interview, and my wife, she goes, You said two to three feet. You meant four to five. And I said, I didn't. She goes, Well, if you are true to your word and you're saying that you want to you want to protect this place for generations to come, you you better be talking about four or five feet. And so I said, Okay. And that's what we did. And we ended up 13 actually elevated as much as five to seven feet in places as you get up to the green complex. And and by way of doing that, we also were able to dig out this massive pond in the dormant space between the 12th and 13th holes. That that was the generated the majority of the material that allowed us to elevate those holes. And I think in a way that so there was an old, there was an old dike that ran between the river and the golf holes, that we were able to elevate it up to the level of that, maintain that kind of natural slope down into the marsh, and but at the same time just create this this separation between the salt water environment, and now all of that water is hitting and actually running into this brand new stormwater pond that's actually helping with all of the neighborhood drainage around the area as well, sucking water out of the neighborhoods after hurricanes and large rain events and giving it a place to go. So when I talk about the community efforts here, like there's that was huge, and that was a big part of that. And it obviously made kind of the most impactful change to the visuals of the golf course, because now after playing 10 holes in a very Parkland setting, you cross the road at Riverland Drive and you're standing on 11T, where you didn't used to be able to see the bridge, the Stone O River. You were just looking into a backdrop of pines. Now you're standing there looking at the bridge to John's Island, the Stone O River in the background, and uh and the pond behind the kind of at the top line of the Redan Green. And so you you move from this very parkland setting into something that feels much more lynx-like. Um, and you get to play Rodan, Cape, Road, and short in that order in this kind of corner of the golf course that becomes its own little amphitheater. And one of the things from a voyeuristic perspective with golf, when you're standing on 14 green looking around, you can see the play at 11, 12, and 13. And uh, if the pin's back left at 11, there's a chance that somebody can make a one using that big kick slope, the ball kind of disappears over the front line of the bunker, and the guys on 14 are the ones that are going to see it go in. Um, it's really cool on a Sunday afternoon of the City Am to kind of have those last three or four groups and see what's going on. Um, but that that corner of the golf course is truly special. And 13 particularly, it's I I often uh describe it as a Frankenhole from a um from the point of view of uh of the um templates because it does have a principal's nose in the middle. It has elements of a bottle hole with those center line bunkers, and then the road hole bunker and the road hole green complex, as well as the marsh acting like the road from 17 at St. Andrews, is that's really what inevitably gives it its its strategy. Um and so, but that golf hole is the widest one on the golf course now. Um, you're really benefited and and rewarded by hitting it down that tighter line on the right hand side above the bunkers, both in terms of your angle of play into the green as well as to a spectacular view of the Stone O River, um, which you don't get from the left side of the fairway because it's blind into the green and you're sitting down another four or five feet. And so um, yeah, that that piece of the golf course uh as you move towards the Stone O River uh is definitely special um and something that I think uh gives everyone something to look forward to from getting beat up on the front nine because the front is definitely a couple of shots harder than the back. Um and so that it helps it helps uh that you get a pretty view and some some more uh uh scoring opportunities coming in.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I could tell you the hole you were just describing, I was just left of the principal's nose, and so then had to fly it over the bunker, which Jonathan, if you just clear the bunker and you hit that down slope, it will take it and throw it into the proverbial, proverbial road, almost into the marsh. Thankfully it got held up a little bit. But yeah, what a what a good stretch of holes there. So well done. And I'll to the to the how it handles water. The day before it poured, right? We had that front that came through that brought the cold that we played in. But going out there, I'm thinking this is gonna be kind of a water large place. It held up so well and it had drained, and we had the first tea time at 7:30 in the morning. So, like the condition of the course was incredible based on the amount of water that had just come through. So, well done on that part too.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you. That that was definitely a big part. And as I talk about kind of the community involvement, I talked about the neighborhoods, kind of some of that stormwater being pulled out. One of the side effects of this project was there was a neighborhood that had long not had sidewalks because it had open ditches, and they couldn't pipe the ditches because there was too much water in the ditches to hold the capacity that fit with the pipes. When we were able to add these ponds, and this was more on the ponds that we added on the second and fourth holes of the golf course, it did the same thing. It was able to draw that water out of the neighborhoods faster, which allowed them to downsize the pipes and put sidewalks into this community for the first time. And so that's a massive side effect that that goes beyond golf. It goes, it creates community beyond golf. And like I said, creating community and the community that is the back porch of the Muni on any given day. Um people talk a lot about vibe these days in golf. And I think golf course architecture is bigger than than shovels and and angles and bunkers and green complexes. Um, creating that community um is something that I think it requires good architecture. It requires something to talk about and something to relate to one another in. Um, but nowhere was the basis greater for this than Muni pre-renovation. And so the opportunity to give these folks and the the people of Charleston something to be proud of and something to talk about was uh was just a great side effect of all of this.

SPEAKER_01

Robbie keeps mentioning we. I unfortunately woke up not well the morning that we were supposed to play. I had a text him at like 6 a.m. going, dude, I'm not gonna be able to make it today. Second time now that I haven't. And then of course he comes back, he's like, it's the best I've ever played. I'm like, oh come on, man. You could have told me it's like you should. I was like, I really wish you just told me it's fine. It's fine. But it it's it apparently has lived up to the expectation. Well, you got to come back.

SPEAKER_02

You gotta go.

SPEAKER_00

I I will say just to piggyback on the vibe and Jonathan not being there. So Jonathan couldn't make it, and then one other guy that was supposed to be with us could not make it. So it was myself and uh a new friend Luke who lives down in the area, and the vibe in the clubhouse was amazing. We were waiting on the guy to check us all in, and there were guys kind of milling about and just kind of in a in a line, like nobody was like, Oh, I've got to have the you know, this tea time, or where is there? Like it was just relaxed, hanging out, everybody sipping on their coffee. And you know, a couple guys, Steve, um, and um man, I'm liking on his other name. Um, Steve and Brian, they jumped in with us, and like they're just guys that like to get out there early before their work starts and uh and play. And so we we had an outstanding time. And the exact vibe I was hoping for, I I would have loved for Jonathan to have seen it and been a part of it, but but it was uh it was better vibe. Man, just the people there echoed what the course is and vice versa. So well well done on that.

SPEAKER_02

Well, yeah, it's amazing. And one of the things that uh in the afternoon with Twilight, it's it's like$12 to play all the golf you can play, and they line up and literally stand in a line at the first T. It looks like a soup kitchen line, like it is the wildest thing, and it'll be you know, it'll be 30 or 40 people deep, and it they're gonna stand there and go off in force for the next two hours, and it's just wild. And I, you know, I mean, to experience something like that with just kind of the energy of the back porch, it reminds me of before they stopped doing this at St. Andrews. I got to sleep on the sidewalk and play as a single at St. Andrews, and um, I think I walked up at 2 a.m. and the guy before me pointed at me, he goes, You're number 14. And I said, Okay. And then I laid down, and the next guy came up about half an hour later, and I got up and I said, You're number 15. And that night, you know, there's people putting on the putting green, hanging out, trying to sleep a little bit. There were probably a dozen different nationalities and at least 10 different languages spoken amongst this group. It was the most democratic processing golf I've ever seen. And as the sun came up, we all got in line with our number because math is the you know universal language, and and got out on the golf course and like that that experience was was incredible from a community perspective. And it just the first time I saw that kind of the the line for for uh Twilight at Muni, I was like, man, this is this is great. This is community. It's people working together and wanting the same things.

SPEAKER_01

So you're saying you don't need a tea time if you show up after five or six o'clock, I can just go get in line and play as many holes?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it's exactly right. You just show up and that uh and you stand there and you get paired up. I you know, it's funny. Jim Nance was here and did that uh a couple weeks ago on a Saturday and went out and played with some of the local guys and just I, you know, loved it. And it's just a it's it's a it's an incredible deal. And even before the renovation at Muni, the the Monday night blitz in the summertime is is a sight to behold. You play in eight SOMs, it's a four-man captain's choice deal. Nine holes includes a steak dinner at 5 p.m. on Monday night. And the the characters that have been known to show up for that are very notorietal. Like there's there's there, yeah, there's there's a lot of folks that have come and gone from from that event over the years. And um so yeah, it's it's just a place that attracts people because it is special and because of its charm. And um yeah, to to go back, Jonathan, to your original question, just the the weight of that was just don't screw it up.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Well, right sounds like what you've done is uh is helped a community in more ways than they could have ever imagined. So I I gotta ask them. We could talk about the Muni all day long and go into tons of detail on it, but this, even though it is kind of a favorite, like personal project, it's not the only thing you've done and working on. So what uh what's currently in the hopper, or I guess uh yeah, what are you currently pushing dirt around?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so you know, for me, like I said, a lot of the golf course architecture stuff is within the Southworth uh envelope. As we've we've done a renovation up at Renaissance Golf Course in Boston over the last couple of years, done a little work with Tom McKenzie on his golf course at Abaco Club at Winding Bay in the Bahamas. That's another one of Southworth's clubs. And Tom came in last summer with me and did some renovation work there. Um, you know, continuing to look at opportunities in golf course architecture, I've got a real desire to see some more things happen in the low country and in the Carolinas in general, um, fitting a niche. Um, I'm a big believer in short courses. I believe that is the next frontier. And, you know, for us, that I've got an eight-year-old and a 12-year-old, and sometimes all you've got is 45 minutes of fun and the ability to create a golf environment that is architecturally significant and feels like real golf in a short course environment and create a place where people can come together and hang, I think is is something that I'm very keen on seeing more of um in our in the golf market in general. Um, so yeah, it's it's a little bit spread out. I I travel a lot. Um I'm up and down the East Coast, and um, you know, we we're working on stuff with Southworth and Scotland as well at our Macrahannish Dunes project. Um, some of those things I I'll be involved from an architecture perspective. Some places we'll work together on others, but uh and hoping to continue to do some more of these types of projects um on my own. And uh it's uh I feel like architecture I've I've been in the business for a little over 25 years now, and I feel like we've we we've had this trend of architecture, and and styles are definitely something that come and go and they're cyclical. I I feel like there's a bit of a sea change coming in golf course architecture. I think there's stylistically some changes that I think we're gonna start to see in the next two to three years, and I'm kind of excited for that. I you know, I think that um for the last couple of decades, we've seen golf courses get bigger and wider. And um I think the vertical hazard, I won't even call them trees because it's such a triggering word to some golfers. I feel like uh I feel like there's there's a place for for a change in what we're looking at in a lot of these new golf courses today. And uh, you know, my hope is to see some of that out too.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I think even as someone who's not a very good golfer, you still want something. I always say I want something that levels the playing field. I'm not a very good golfer, and so whenever you go out and you play something that's like, you know, if you hit it 250, 275 down the middle, then you hit your eight iron in or your nine iron in, and then they always one putt because it's flat and easy. I like it whenever I'm out there with guys that are, you know, two handicaps going, wow, I did not see that coming. Uh and I, you know, I'm still gonna triple, so that doesn't change anything. But like I just had Jeff Marsh, a buddy of ours, just post the other day. He's playing a course that there's trees in the middle of the fairway. Yeah, and I'm like, that sounds fantastic. Now, again, they're strategic, there's not like a line of them, but rather it's one of those like you got to play this way or that way, or you put yourself in jail. And the good golfer, I think the plays the guys I've played with appreciate that sort of thought, not just something random, but the thought behind it. Um, so I I'm always excited to talk to folks that do what you do.

SPEAKER_02

I I will tell you, Jeff Cornish, you know, a generation ago, was famous for doing trees in the middle of fairways, particularly in the northeast. He was a regional architect that did a lot of that. Um, and you know, those they they they certainly created a uh a point of conversation for people, right? And but I I do think. And you've heard a you know, Scotty Scheffler, I think, has spoken really eloquently about golf course architecture in a few interviews over the last couple of years, talking about kind of the lost art of shaping the golf ball and the need to be able to work the ball in different directions based upon trees and vertical hazards. And uh, and I think there are ways to accomplish it, you know, without creating and requiring different trajectories and different shot types based upon the slopes. But there's also, you know, an element that you need that. And for you, Jonathan, as an average player, I mean, I think that the thing that I always talk about is short grass is the ultimate equalizer, um, giving players options, giving the good player something to think about. Because generally, good players don't like to think they want to hit that shot that they know and they can hit over and over again. But all of a sudden, and I think Pioneer's number two is the best example of this in the world, where you've got the chance to chip it, putt it, hit, you know, bump it up there, do all of these different things, you've got a decision to make now, and you've brought in a lot of different uh uh variables and in order to get it close and get it up and down, which is what the scratch player's trying to do. And the average player who may not be able to get it on the green out of three inch rough can put it up there somewhere on the middle of the green and two-putt and make bogey move on.

SPEAKER_01

And so that's what I'm I'm a listen, I am a Texas wedge fan. I'll put out a sand if you give me a chance. Like you give me a you start building sand traps with me in mind, a little bit of ramp. I'm taking it every single time.

SPEAKER_00

Jonathan scratch with his putter, but every other club is probably like plus something or a plus a lot.

SPEAKER_02

You know, that that goes back to the fact that I, you know, I talked to we're not all gonna be able to hit it like Tiger Woods or Roy McElroy. When nobody not ever not everybody is physically capable of hitting it 305 yards and hitting it high, but there's no physical reason we all can't putt like those guys. Like that's that, you know, from a regular just it's a practice thing, and it's the thing where I tell you know, when kids or their parents ask me about advice on playing the game of golf, for every ball you hit, you should spend a minute putting and chipping. And I think that that's where that's where the game is won or lost, and that's where you can make it the most creative and interesting um around the greens as an architect and uh challenge players. Um, but yeah, putting yourselves in the right position to be able to do that. Um from the sounds of it, I think, yeah, I can't wait for you to come play it healthy and without rain, Jonathan, because it I think you'll uh yeah, you it it it it will appeal to you as a guy who likes to play the ball on the ground because golf is meant to be played on the ground, and uh the contours at Muni really allow for that in a lot of ways, where you just can you don't have to play out the hole to get it to the hole.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, no, he uh he will absolutely love it, and uh there's more reason for us to get back down there sooner than later. So I mean him being August, I'm in Columbia, so it's uh it's not a bad trip. And not a bad trip. Obviously, there's there's plenty of other things down there, good food. Uh we know a bunch of people down there, so many reasons to come down, not just for the incredible golf. Yep. Yep. Well, uh, one thing and we could pick your brain all day about the stuff you're working on in this, you know, golf course architecture, but I know uh you got plenty to do, uh including making the next great courses out there. But Lisa, as we start to wrap up, let's let's ask a couple questions about kind of your game and then some favorites. So, one question we ask everybody, and this is kind of how we started with this podcast, is we love hearing the story about your most memorable golf shot.

SPEAKER_02

Ooh, most memorable golf shot. My gosh, I've never been asked that. I'm gonna say uh I designed a golf course called Lake Presidential in um Upper Marlboro, Maryland. Uh it was uh best new golf course in the country in 2008, um, which in 2008 was kind of like being uh, I don't know, the tallest midget because it was uh it was a bad year for golf. But uh um but the 17th hole there was a reachable, drivable par four. Um, kind of sets up high to the left with a big kick slope that if you just carried it about 270 or so off the back, it would kick down and into the bowl of the screen. I was playing in the mid-Atlantic four-ball championship with uh my partner Mike Kelly, and Mike and I had played uh the front nine very poorly in an even par 36, and then Mike got hot with the putter, and we were standing on 7T, a 17T, four under par. And uh I drove it on the green to about three feet, made the putt for Eagle, and we won um shooting uh 30 on the back. And uh uh yeah, that that's probably my most memorable golf shot was driving it on that green and and making that putt um to to win the mid-Atlantic four-ball um 2014, I believe.

SPEAKER_01

That's a good day. Wow.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01

And he made the putt. That's the kicker. A lot of guys will tell us the story about how they drove the green and we don't finish it after that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's I I've gotten a lot of good drives though over the years, um, hitting some hitting some of those. And uh yeah, they used to call it uh three-putt par or Troy Miller. So uh I made that one though.

SPEAKER_01

I like that. That'd be pulled out for sure. All right. Well, the other thing we like to do with all of our guests, uh, the quick dine. So ask this as a two-parter, what is the favorite course that you've ever played? And then what is the favorite course that you've had the opportunity to be a designer in besides the Muni, outside the Muni? Oh, outside the Muni.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

We already know how much you love the Muni.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, okay. Um, so from a uh my favorite in the world is actually Royal Royal Dorneck um in Scotland. It's where Donald Ross grew up. Um I've been fortunate to play in the Carnegie Shield there a couple of times. And um, going around that golf course, the influence um that you see on so much of our golf history in the United States and Donald Ross's work throughout the United States, it just gives you a good sense of how much you are inspired by the environment in which you're grown. Um, because when you see Dornick and see some of the golf holes out there, you see what he did in the United States, and you I immediately see, oh my gosh, this is the same hole as this one, this one, this one. And and just the influence of that place. Um, I quite frankly think it's the best golf course in the world. Um, the the set of par threes there is remarkable. Um, and everybody loves Foxy, the the boat the bunkerless uh long par four, 14th hole. Um it's a really special place at you know, kind of the end of the earth, almost of the Arctic Circle, and um just an incredibly special, special place. So Royal Dornik um would be my favorite. Um and then um from my perspective, my favorite one to be involved with. Um yeah, I um there's some that I won't name that I was a uh that that I got to work on as a young kid picking up sticks and um you know and doing renovation work at the ocean course and and some other some other really quality places around the United States. But as a designer, um, you know, I think probably Apes Hill Club in Barbados um was a really special project uh that was opened in 2007 as well. Um, and uh it's a golf course that you can sit on the very top of Barbados. You can see both the Caribbean and the Atlantic. Um, so as you crest the hill from the 11th hole and go to the T on the Par 312th, you're looking down at the Atlantic and Bathsheba. If you've got any surfer friends, uh just an incredible surf beach. Um, but you're sitting up at an elevation almost of a thousand feet looking down at the beach. Um, and so that was a really special project and a really special place um that uh where uh Barbados is um, you know, there's green monkeys in the trees, and uh the golf course itself was uh was a it was the most expensive build I've ever been a part of because it's all coral and about that much, you know, about an inch of peanut butter soil. There was a massive sand import to go cut that entire golf course and sand to make it possible, um, and a lot of chipping away at coral stone to make it possible. Um, but just a spectacular site with spectacular views. And so uh, and it was early in my career and one that I got to uh really get a full full measure of what it takes to build a golf course in a difficult site.

SPEAKER_00

Man, that sounds amazing. Uh you're making me more jealous now of the Royal Dornik. Uh I went there back in uh uh August and or in the Highlands area. I got to see uh the course from like the clubhouse and a few holes, but did not get to play. That was not the purpose of that trip, but makes me want to go back even more now.

SPEAKER_02

So well that that part of Scotland I think is incredibly special. Um and they've got a new clubhouse that just opened at Dornick this year. And I'll be back. Yeah, they were there for like they were finishing it up when we were there. Yep. So I'll be going back for the Carnegie Shield this year in August. I'm very much looking forward to that. And the, you know, when you get up that when you get up into that area, you know, Gullsby just down the road, which gives you a really interesting vibe of a little bit of Lynx golf course and then a little bit of Heathland golf course as you kind of climb into the hills there. And then Barora, which is just, I mean, when we talk about charm and just classic places, my gosh, they still have the the the cattle gates around the the greens there, and it's just uh spectacular. Um, lots of great golf in Scotland. And um, and yeah, I I feel like Macrahannish is one of those other places that is just the end of the earth. That is it's an old Tom Morris top 100 in the world with the best opening hole in golf anywhere you hit across the North Atlantic and the Irish Sea off the first T. Um, there's some of these some of these further flung corners of Scotland have such incredible history and such incredible charm. Um, it's hard not to fall in love.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, we were on a youth choir trip with our church, and so um as a driver, I took the liberty of saying, hey, we're gonna swing by here and here and here. We stopped by pretty much every one of those. That's awesome. Um, just just to see it and say it was it was incredible. It in my mind, I'm just mentally making a uh come back to playlist for sure.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, well, there's there's definitely some of those that did that are not to be missed when you get the opportunity.

SPEAKER_00

So that's yeah, so those are all on the bucket list for us, and we gotta ask then you what is at the top of your bucket list.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, um, you know, I um I I'd say the top of my bucket list today is Cypress Point. I I haven't played it, I've been out in Monterey a good bit and played all the others. Um uh Cypress, I think is um incredibly special. Alistair McKenzie is I've always studied studied a lot of McKenzie's work, and I think just his ability, his artistic ability to create something. And and I really what I'm most interested in there is kind of the way that the golf course evolves. And if you've read The Match, which is a great read, um it talks about the three acts of that golf course going through the forest and into the dunes and out to the cliffs, and kind of the way that it evolves. I I think it's really I the idea of being able to blend these different environments into an 18-hole journey, I think, is something that's really important in golf course architecture because it's it's important that you have dad, that you have different environments within the same golf course. How you blend them all together and make them transition from one to the other. I think that's that's a big part of what I want to see at Cyprus.

SPEAKER_01

Sounds good. All right. What is your favorite course that no one knows about?

SPEAKER_02

Oh, my favorite course that no one knows about. All right. First I'm gonna hit you with a no longer exists because it was incredible. But Annapolis Roads was a Charles Banks nine-hole golf course outside of Annapolis, Maryland. Um, there was a Redan and an Eden. It was incredible. And Charles Steam Shovel Banks was he he inherited Rayner's work after Rayner died in the 20s. And he had finished actually, did a little bit of the work on Amons Hall, and then went on to do some great work in his own own accord. Uh uh Tavistock in in um in Connecticut is incredible, but he did what was going to be a 36-hole facility um outside of Annapolis. Nine holes only ever got built. By the time I played it, there was no sand in the bunkers, but all the shapes were still there. Uh a guy who played on the University of Florida golf team in the 70s with uh with uh with all of the which with the national championship team there in the late 70s was was running the place out of just a little, you know, cinder block shot shack. It was incredible. Uh unfortunately, uh the local school bought it and took it over for sports fields and leveled the Redan and a couple of the others, and so it's no longer existing, but it was just a great place to go experience really bold golf course architecture. Um, a place that I'll mention that it's been a long time, but with you and Augusta Jonathan and you and Columbia, Robbie, I I when I went to the University of Georgia and and was in graduate school, I used to just go out from Athens and see all the places that I could. I'd just wake up on Saturday and drive and call superintendents and ask if I could go walk their golf course. But Arrowhead Point in the state park. Yeah. Um, on is that still Lake Ocone technically or Hartwell?

SPEAKER_01

I don't think it's Hartwell. It's Hartwell, I think.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So Lake Hartwell and it that golf course sitting inside a state park, just in this pristine environment with some incredible holes around the lake. Yeah, I feel like it's one that just is commonly overlooked that um from a public perspective that people don't talk about as much, but well worth the trip. Um, and I couldn't tell you if it's still operating today or whether or not they're mowing the greens, but it was it was incredible when I saw it early on after it had been built, um, and they were operating out of a trailer, and I remember thinking, how in the world is this place not on the map?

SPEAKER_01

I went and played it last summer. Uh, shout out to Sherve, my buddy I play golf with quite a bit. Sure, we call that Sherve International because he he's the one that promotes it and tells everybody to go. Uh, it's cheap golf and a really expensive hot dog. So if you're gonna go play there, make sure you bring your own snacks. Like it's like a$12 hot dog. I mean, it's ridiculous how I I asked them, like, where do you bring these hot dogs in from? Because the golf, I think we played 18 holes on a Saturday for like less than 50 bucks.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And it was it was good. Yeah, it's absolutely a really great course.

SPEAKER_02

It's a yeah, I'd I'd say, you know, that's a that's a space. State park golf is a space that I think has an incredible opportunity, the same as municipal golf does to really make a difference. Um and cheap golf doesn't have to mean bad golf. Uh with the right, you know, with the right architectural significance to put in and the right thought. Um, you can build golf courses that are intriguing and exciting and fun to play without buffing the budget. That's right. Yep.

SPEAKER_00

All right. Who's in your dream force them?

SPEAKER_02

Uh, let's see here. Um they're gonna be architects. Um I'd probably say Ross, um McKenzie, and maybe uh maybe Perry Maxwell. Or Pete, actually. I'd I would like to local Pete. Yeah, I uh yeah, that that's that that's that's short-sighted of me. Yeah, I would say I would say Pete. We'll make it a fives and four. We'll bring them both. Listen, I'll loop your drink. I'll double bag and loop for those guys, and we can just throw somebody else in there too.

SPEAKER_01

Is that a six-hour round of golf as everyone critiques the different hunters and everything? Like everyone's like, I would have put that here. No, I would have put that here.

SPEAKER_02

Well, you know what's interesting, like that was an age, that was a day and age where, at least in some corners, there was great collaboration. I mean, the Philadelphia School of Architecture and what happened at Pine Valley between Tillinghouse, Crump, uh, Flynn, uh, you know, Colt, there was there were so many, so many minds that came together to create that incredible place. Um, and so yeah, I think uh we could use a little more collaboration these days.

SPEAKER_01

That's true. All right. What is your favorite snack at the turn?

SPEAKER_02

Oh, um, you know, I'm uh I'm a pretty light eater on the golf course. Um, but I probably, you know, I probably gotta go traditional hot dog. Um, although I will say the PBJ and bacon at Mountain Lake Um is spectacular.

SPEAKER_00

That's pretty good. All right. Well you are uh you're rocking the Muni logo there. Uh so we'll take that one out of the conversation. But what is your favorite golf course logo?

SPEAKER_02

Ooh, favorite golf course logo. Um, I actually was I I designed this one when uh when we did the golf course. This was this was new during the 2020 renovation. Um was part of just trying the same way with the short flag sticks and just trying to create an essence and a uniqueness of the place. But it was really inspired by the Mirian logo, um, which I I think is uh I I I love all of the brackets this time of year with all the logos. Um I love participating, um, but I really do think Mirian's the goat. Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_01

What has been your favorite pro shop purchase?

SPEAKER_02

Um You know, interestingly, it's one that um I I don't wear often because I live in Charleston, but my first trip to Ireland, Royal Port Rush, I bought a jumper, a red jumper, a red sweater with the port rush logo on it. Um, and my God, it's gotta be like negative 10 for me to put that thing on. But um, in my travels, I get to wear it every once in a while, but it is a prized possession of mine because it was early in my life and I probably couldn't afford it, but I wanted it so bad I got it anyway. That's awesome. Nice.

SPEAKER_00

All right. This one I'm curious to hear from a golf architect perspective. The question is, what is one thing golfers should do? Play faster.

SPEAKER_02

Like, generally speaking, I think uh that's it's golf is you we're here for a good time, not a long time. And I think that uh it it's it's more enjoyable um when you're playing faster. Like, you know, hit it quick before you got time to think about it. Like I it's uh it's a tough thing. I I you know, I I would rather play with an average player who plays fast than a good player who plays slow. Um and I think that um time is the one resource that we all have a limited amount of, and trying not to impede on anyone else's enjoyment of time is is uh is a always a big part. Maybe that's just my sense of urgency and my eight and twelve year old that I'd like to get home to sooner than later.

SPEAKER_01

Agreed. I always enjoy it when a golf course tells you how long it should take you to play. Like I've seen it at the first T. You should expect this to be a four-hour round or four fifteen. We had one the other day that I think we were on hole 13. They told you like you should you should have 45 minutes left to finish this type thing.

SPEAKER_02

Um I I've used uh it's through our operations in various places, I've used a lot of different tactics in terms of you know putting the clocks out that match your tea time at the different holes on the whole on the course. So as you get to the fourth hole, you this should see show your tea time or earlier, like and trying to keep people in mind of where they are. Um, I think that's important. I also think playing forward, like what I've I have implemented in a few places kind of this test. I believe that you should play from 36 times however far you hit your five iron. Like that's and so you we put posts out in the driving range and had a pyramid of golf balls at one public daily fee golf course. And we said, take your five iron or five iron equivalent, your 27-degree club, and hit five balls towards these posts. Whichever post that you're landing closest to, that's the set of tees you should play today. And it might not be as far back as you want, but you're gonna have more fun that way. You might, I mean, the reason we we put drivable par fours is so that everybody can drive them, not just the longest players. So play the appropriate set of T's, and that will lead back to playing faster.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I like that idea. If you could 34 times however far you hit your five iron. Yeah, I mean, it's it's interesting.

SPEAKER_00

Jonathan crushes his five iron though, so maybe you need to pick a driver buggy.

SPEAKER_01

I'm terrible with the driver. I just use my four by five off the T box, so we're okay. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Well, it's it's an interesting thing. I just think that um, you know, we All are, you know, it's we've all got egos and we all think we hit it further than we do, and we all it's uh enjoying a golf course and making it such that it's not just about hitting driver. We all want to hit driver, but if you do it over and over again, it kind of takes away from the specialness of it. Um think about it a little bit. Hit something different off the T. Be forced to hit something different off the T, or at least maybe it's a better decision for you.

SPEAKER_01

I'm playing from the fronts now until I figure out how to hit a driver. Let's go. Let's go. All right, last question. Uh finish this sentence. The best part of golf is nature.

SPEAKER_02

For me, I I um I had a weird experience last Saturday. I went over to the wedge, the short game area at the Muni, uh, at 3:30 in the afternoon. I guess there must have been some good basketball on this weekend because I was all by my lonesome in that short game area for 90 minutes. And that is a peaceful experience. Um, and I think that that's the thing that it's being in nature and having that experience that again brings people together. Uh, it's not about it's it's uh you not about being alone in nature, but when you are there and it can experience it together, it's special.

SPEAKER_00

Completely agree. Uh Jonathan, I don't know about you, but I'm sitting here thinking, as we've been talking about Munis and Troy's work and stuff like that, like can you imagine, Troy? There's a golf course in Columbia owned by Richland County called Lenric Golf Club. I know it. Oh man, Jonathan, what if what if Troy got his hands on that place?

SPEAKER_01

I'm buying a lottery ticket tonight to see if we can fix Lenric. I'm buying it from the county. I swear, I Lenric, I didn't start playing golf when I was 27. Lenric was where I played, and me and a buddy, not Robbie, a different guy I worked with, we'd get up at 7 o'clock in the morning. I went to church at night. So it was seven o'clock in the morning, 10-mile drive down, and we'd walk nine holes. And a lot of times they'd let us jump on the back and chase mowers. And it was, you know, like an hour and 15, hour and a half walk. Uh, I'm still not, I'm probably just about the same amount of good golfer as I was then. Like I haven't changed a whole lot, but it's such a good design course that makes you think. But it's, you know, it's a it's a it's a mutiny that's ran by a county that's not putting money or time or energy into it. And I I mean, I you think about Charleston, the the obviously the patch here in Augusta just got taken over. You those courses that some of these places have incredible layouts, just not the the time and energy and someone to think about how can we make this more interesting.

SPEAKER_02

Um yeah, well, you know, that's a I've had a lot of conversations with folks around the country since Charleston Municipal was done about how can I make this happen at my Mini. I I really do believe, given the growth of Goff and the economic growth of Goff, these are resources for these cities and they should be looking at them as such. And for a long time they were treated poorly and and were not a resource. I mean, Charleston Municipal lost money for the first 80 years of its existence. This changed the the whole, and that was part of the whole plan that was put together as well. You know, I put together a pro forma and a business plan when we put together this design and said, I want this to be something that is not being subsidized by the city, but is rather creating and generating income for the city. And so that's exactly what it did. And from the first year, after losing 100 to$50,000 to$100,000 a year annually, after we opened the renovation, the golf course made almost three-quarters of a million dollars in 2020, and so 2021 rather. And so uh that like that turnaround, I think that some of these municipalities are gonna start to realize as golf grows around them at in different environments in the pot in the private, in the high-end public resort, serving that need and serving that general public with an affordable concept that is exciting and interesting to play, that's an investment that will return. And I believe that there's a lot, you're absolutely right, within municipalities, state parks, there's their opportunities to go out and really make places great and make them positive revenue generators um that they don't that they just have not been to date. So it takes it takes lightning in a bottle, it takes the right people being involved in government as well as the grassroots efforts of those in those communities. Um, but you get the right formula for it, and it's this, it's the state of great change. And that's certainly very excited to see the patch this year. Um, I feel like that's that's a great a great thing. And I think the model of being able to do this in other municipalities is hopefully going to become a bigger and bigger trend.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Well, Troy, this is uh this has been great, man. It's been very uh we're very appreciative of your time uh spending it with us to talk about golf and uh and all the great things you've done. Thank you uh for for the on the golf side, but thank you also for for hanging out with us for a little bit. Absolutely. Thank you guys very much.

SPEAKER_02

I appreciate it. It's been great.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Well, for Troy and Jonathan, this is Robbie, and you guys have been listening to another episode of the Whole Story Podcast.

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Jonathan Hill

Co-host
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Robby Woodard

Co-host