The Hole Story - Golf Podcast

[REPLAY] - The Story of Jackson Kahn Golf Course Design with Tim Jackson and David Kahn

• BestBall • Season 4

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[Replay from May 22, 2025] 

Join us as we explore the world of golf course architecture with Tim Jackson and David Kahn of JacksonKahn Golf Course Design. Discover their design philosophies, memorable projects, and insights into creating fun, challenging, and beautiful golf experiences.

https://www.jacksonkahndesign.com/

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SPEAKER_01

From an aesthetic standpoint, um, golf is played in nature. It should be in a beautiful environment. If you look at all you know, many of the highly ranked courses um in the United States and around the world, um a lot of it is where they're situated and the environment that they sit in. Um, you know, for us, the detail of what we put into that, um, you know, there's not a lot of golfers that can really stand on a T and discern strategy, um, or maybe even have the game if they can discern the strategy to execute the strategy. But, you know, everybody can stand there and say, like, wow, that looks amazing. That is beautiful.

SPEAKER_03

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of the Whole Story Podcast. Robbie here. Today we are continuing our series looking at golf architects. We're doing a flashback to look at an episode that we've done, it was a little over a year ago, probably, where we sat down with Tim Jackson and David Kahn of JacksonCon Golf Course Design. These guys have been doing some great things, including uh many of you have heard of the Bad Little Nine at Scottsdale National. If you haven't heard of it, look it up. It's incredible. You'll definitely want to go try to play it for sure. Uh, a great episode. And again, it follows uh falls great in our uh golf course architect series. We love chatting with folks like this who are doing incredible things to shape and grow the game and grow courses that we love to play. So uh I hope you enjoy uh another listen to this one. As always, we are brought to you by our friends at uh so many golf brands, be Drati, Zero Restriction, Fairway, and Green. If you go to any of their sites and use the code BUSTBALL20, you can get 20% off your order. Well, let's get to the conversation with Tim and David of JacksonCon Golf Course Design. Y'all enjoy. All right, well, Tim Jackson, David Kahn. Welcome to the Whole Story Podcast. Thanks for joining us, guys. Thanks for having me. Thanks for having me to be here. Yeah, so uh, you know, we we are excited to hear from y'all, guys that are actually making the beautiful places that we all get to go and and play golf. Uh well, I guess we haven't checked off too many of the ones that y'all have done. Uh we need to get y'all to the southeast here, uh, or we need to travel more. But um, before we start with what y'all are doing with JacksonCon design, let's let's talk about how y'all got into golf. Did y'all grow up playing? When did when did all this come together? Or we all the kids like us just pushing cars in the dirt, and you're like, wait a minute, I I like shaping this stuff. So when did golf begin for you guys?

SPEAKER_01

Uh David or Jack, uh Tim, go ahead and you start. Okay, yeah. No, I'm you know, I'm older, so you know, we'll just defer to seniority. Uh seniority, yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, I started playing golf when I was about 11 years old, as best as I can recollect. Um grew up on a uh I lived very close adjacent to uh a municipal course in northern Indiana. Um and it was designed by Bill Diddle, who was one of the, as I came to find, was one of the founders of the golf course architect society way back in the day. Not the guy that actually chose the red plaid for the coats, but you know, part of that initial uh initial group. Um and it was, you know, for me, it was magical. Like I fell in love with golf, you know, the first time I played. I really did, and you know, kind of gave up all sports, all their athletics, and that's really kind of you know all I wanted to do. Um, you know, still remember walking across the golf course as the sun's rising, um, you know, and just all those times as a kid where, you know, no cares in the world and just going out and just enjoying, you know, this new love that that that I found. And um, you know, for me, that eventually led to, you know, working on a golf course, um, going to Purdue University, um, having great fortune and timing being there to to build a golf course when P Die was building um one for the university and and then just sheer dumb luck and timing from that point forward.

SPEAKER_00

So yeah. Dumb luck and timing goes a long way, doesn't it? It goes a long way.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Um I I started playing golf before my memory serves me. So around 18 months old, I had clubs in my hand and I was swinging. Um my grandfather kind of started me, taking me to the driving range and playing putt-putt, and um it, you know, all the adults in my life just kind of recognized from a very early age that I just seemed to have a natural knack for it. Um, not that I was the best player in the world, but I just I could swing a golf club and and I got kind of hooked um earlier than I ever remember. So golf's always been part of my life. Um I've always had kind of an artistic side to me as well. And uh at about the age of seven, you know, that's when I realized very clearly in my own head, um, for for reasons beyond me, that I just I wanted to design golf courses. Um I grew up playing competitive golf my whole life, up uh into my freshman year in college at Auburn. And then I realized that, you know, D1 golf was was a full-time job, and I wasn't quite um up to par with with everyone else on a on a very, very good team, and and just realized that now's the time to kind of pivot and and chase my I don't know if it was a plan B designing courses and and professional golf was plan A. It was probably the other way around. Um I'm I'm a realist and and knew that that was a really uh far-fetched uh dream to play professionally. So um I ended my freshman year, I transferred into landscape architecture and uh pretty much the coach gave me an ultimatum school or golf, and I chose I chose school. So um graduated with a master's of landscape architecture and just uh everything with my life experience was was guiding me and and helping me you know achieve my ultimate dream of designing courses, which again still had to rely on dumb luck and timing to to really crack through that door, but um just you know kind of a dream come true when that phone call from from Tom Fazio's office came through in 2005 and um kind of led me to where I am today.

SPEAKER_03

Okay. So how did uh how did an FCC guy and a Big Ten guy uh end up coming together to to form uh Jackson Conn? I mean, I know you said you worked for Fazio and and Tim, you had other experience as well. Like what what brought you guys together? When did y'all first meet?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so we both we both worked for Tom. When I when I graduated at Purdue, I sent out um I sent out ten, I guess, uh resumes to to architects. Either I had um, you know, either knew their name or played their courses, went on the golf course architect society, got the got the um you know the the addresses and and got got nine rejections and and really a a nasty one from one individual who's not alive today anymore, so I won't name his name. But um, you know, you're just a lowly turf kid from you know Purdue. Why are you even thinking about going down this path? And then, you know, much like Dave, got an interview with Fazio, and to this day I swear I got hired because I ordered a beer at dinner during my interview. Um, and they're like, hey, he's one of us. So, you know, that was, you know, well, well, you know, again, just sheer dumb luck. But um, but we both work for Tom. We worked in the West Coast office, we worked in Scottsdale. And actually, the first time I met Dave, I had been in Mexico working on um a project called Chileno Bay, and um I came back and Dave had taken over my desk. Um, and you know, I'm I'm not a small individual, and I had my desk strategically closest to the refrigerator in the office, and I was a little miffed because now I was at the desk furthest away from the refrigerator in the office, and um, and that's how we first met. But, you know, I remember actually seeing, you know, some of the sketches that Dave had done that he had put up kind of around that office space and just being absolutely blown away by his his artistic abilities and um you know, in in what he was able to do, which you know, I think we were very proficient at golf course design and golf course construction, but we didn't have that art side in our office. Not a not a lot of us had that capability, and and David really did. And and just being so impressed with that. Um, you know, how we eventually formed JacksonCon Design when the recession hit in 2008, either if you're kicked out of the nest or you choose to fly, um, you know, it was an opportunity for us. Tom, you know, he had to reduce the size of the company by 80%. Um and he was great. Tom's a Tom's an amazing individual. Um, you know, there's a lot of big egos in our industry, and and Tom is not one of those guys. And and and so, you know, it it I know it hurt him to have to do that, but for us it was an opportunity. And, you know, and we there was a lot of people in the industry that that really wanted to to help us and see us succeed once we started JacksonCon. And and we're so grateful for that. Um, we wouldn't be here without their help and support. Um but yeah, so we just you know, we met at Fasio and then we were provided the opportunity to start JacksonCon in 2009.

SPEAKER_00

I like the way you phrase that. We were provided the opportunity. Uh I'm assuming maybe you called your wives, you're like, it didn't sound much like an opportunity, but hey, let's let's run with it, right?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, that's always, you know, if you like to get the rug pulled out from underneath you a little bit, and and I'm sure we both had doubts, you know, how do we continue in this industry? Um, but we knew, you know, we had the experience, we knew what we were doing. Um, we didn't know the business side of, of course, architecture, and we've kind of, you know, had to figure that out uh along the way as we've gone and and you know to varying degrees of success. But um, but we knew we had a passion for it and we knew that we got along really well. We complimented each other um very strongly with our our our skill sets and um and yeah, we've just you know been really lucky to make a go of it.

SPEAKER_00

So for anybody, because I've always been intrigued. My uncle, for example, worked with a company that built roads, right? And he offered me a job one time, but his job was you're gonna dig ditches for like two years, and then maybe someday you'll get a chance to like do something actually. So in in the golf course architectural world, is it is it as glamorous as it sounds, or is it initially like, hey, we're putting in uh sprinkler heads here, here, here, and here, go start digging holes?

SPEAKER_02

There's not, I mean, like most jobs, I think it's uh it's behind the curtains not always as glamorous as you know social media makes it sound. Um that being said, it's it's there's not many more fun jobs out there in in our opinion. Um but you know, I I learned in the ditches. Um, Tim learned in the construction side of things. And so, you know, when I was coming out of school and and wanted to get a job and uh sent my re Rye resumes around to all the architects in the country, they all said the same thing. You need construction experience. You know, and I'm like, why do I need construction experience? I just I I want to design courses, right? And and I was naive and I didn't realize the the importance of understanding how to build a course correctly, um whether you're just watching somebody or physically doing it, and of course you learn better by doing. Um, you know, as a as a fresh face right out of college, I didn't want to go, you know, dig ditches in the dirt. Um felt like it was kind of a waste of of all my schooling. But uh looking back, it was it was necessary. Um so I I did that for for a year before I really had to just I I can't I can't do this. I'm not built for manual labor day in, day out. Um and I was fortunate to be able to, you know, kind of um shift and and and and make things happen. But um yeah, I spent I moved to Arizona in 02 and I spent what felt like seven straight munch months, you know, in a ditch, just breathing in caliche dust and um you know, just learning the bare bones of how to build a golf course from the ground up. And irregardless of the design that was coming to life, it was um it was a valuable lesson in you know how to do things just not even just how to do things the right way, but how things are done at all. I was very green to um to what went into building a golf course. It's it's very misleading what's under the surface uh in a well-built golf course. You never see, you know, 90% of the cost of what goes into building a course. So um and that that that eye-opening exposure continued really um to grow and and where I really learned was with Tom's organization and seeing those large-scale projects come to life. It was I probably spent the first couple years in the field with Tom, just staying three steps behind everybody and keeping my eyes and ears open and just kind of trying to absorb it all and uh you know, not feeling embarrassed to ask questions because I felt like I why the heck are we doing this? You know, so um, and we're still learning today. Every project's a little bit different. There's a lot of overlap, but there's a lot of nuance to every project that is is incredibly unique, and you're kind of learning on the fly and and hopefully working with great people that can help, you know, teach you and guide you and and vice versa as well. So it's it's always uh there's always something interesting to to continue the spark of you know creativity and passion for what we do.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, it's important to kind of understand, like you were saying, every piece of it because that makes you better at what your skill set is really good at. And you talk about every course and place being different, and we'll get to your kind of resume or design reel as you'll have it listed on your site. But everywhere you go is different, whether it's the the type of dirt, you know, sandy soil, what other kind of soils and all that stuff, and terrain and trees or growth or you know, climate, all this other stuff, and you guys have to take all that, factor it in, and blend it with the design to then make something special. So um looking at your design reel, I mean, you've got uh Conway Farms, Scottsdale National, some work at Monterey Peninsula, uh, many, many places like that. I'm guessing the Conway Farms redesign probably came after Jim Purick shot a 59 there, right?

SPEAKER_01

Well, there's a story there. Yeah. No, um, it wasn't it wasn't really the 59 that that um you know that that drove that. They most um existing clubs um when they need to replace the irrigation system, that's the time that you're gonna come in and remodel because you're gonna you know have to have a large capital outlay, the the membership's gonna be disrupted. Um, and so that's the time to say, okay, is there something there that's better? Because when you put that irrigation in the ground, especially with today's technology, um, the underground portions of the system may last for 75, 100 years. The pipe is that much better than it used to be. It used to be 25 years was kind of the time frame. So, I mean, that's the course you're gonna be playing for quite some time, or you're gonna come in and you're gonna start to disrupt all that capital that you just put on your new irrigation system. We did have a club one time, two years after they put in the irrigation system. Um, they interviewed architects for a major remodel, but you couldn't touch the irrigation system. And they wanted to be a top hundred club, and it was one of the most confounding exercises I think that we've ever ever been a part of. But um, and we just recently re-remodeled that golf club, um, actually, but um many years after they put the irrigation system initially. Um, you know, Conway was at that point, and um Conway's a great, great club, um, one of the best professional staffs between general manager, um, director of golf, and golf course Todd Marsh, Jeff Morey, and Connor uh Healy, that you're you're just ever gonna find. And it was such a pleasure for us to get to work with them. Um obviously, having come from Tom Fazio's organization, the you know, design was familiar to us as far as the the components of it. And you know, I think David would echo this for the design adjustments that we made. It was relatively easy. Fazio courses are, regardless of where they are, um, and regardless of the detail design, the foundational elements are always usually pretty solid from a drainage perspective, um, from a grading standpoint. Um, so you don't have to come in and correct a lot of physical issues with the golf course. And sometimes we have to do that when we come in when things aren't done necessarily the way that they they could be or should be, as well as they they need to be. Um so we really there just got to focus on, man, how do we make a much more strategic, you know, optional, beautiful golf course from something that was already really, really good. Um, and so, you know, we we you know, we had a lot of fun doing that. Um, you know, the the PGA tour events that they had there um really weren't part of our design process, our thought process at all. Um, you know, Tom taught us you don't build the church for Easter Sunday. Um, you know, the members are gonna play it 51 weeks a year, and you know, the one week they may have a PGA tour event, there's gonna be one guy at the end of the event that really likes the golf course, and the rest of them are gonna hate it. Um so you know, I think that um, you know, it was a it was just a great, great project for us, and we were really fortunate to get to do it.

SPEAKER_00

You talk about the redesign and thinking through. I've always wondered. Whenever you're an architect and say the the fairways are being built or the approach shots are there and the greens are being built, do you imagine where the pinholes could be and the number of different ways players could actually play it? Like, are you anticipating that if you're in this spot right here and we're gonna put the pin over here, there is a way to get to it. It might not be the easiest way, but are you guys like manipulating the ground in that way, going, This is the shot I want to see someone make?

SPEAKER_02

Absolutely. Yeah, all of that goes into consideration. Um, the more varied and the more option laden a uh a hole is a golf course is, the more enjoyable it is, and the and what we call um you know, increase in replay value, where you want to go back and play it again. And that speaks, you know, maybe it speaks to every golf course, maybe a little bit more prominent in a in a member in a private club where you get members playing the same course day in, day out, you know, a hundred plus times a year. You really need to focus on replay value so they're not playing just this sterile, mundane, repetitive experience, which unfortunately a lot of a lot of courses are. Um, and then you get the stubbornness of the golfer that won't move from the blue tees, right? So um, you know, we we we try to get as much character and as much interest and as much variety into the every element of it between the the contouring, the the variety and widths of fairways and sizes of greens and shapes and angles of whole locations and elevations and all the above. So it's it just adds to a more enriched experience. Um but yeah, we we always um kind of imagine ourselves what if what if you hit it there? What if you hit it there? What if you hit it there? What if the pin's there? And you just gotta try to, you know, rack through all those combinations in your brain and make sure that you're not leaving anything on the table or creating something that's unenjoyable and and just flat out too hard. You know, because the easiest thing in the world is to make a golf course hard. It's it's really easy, but is that also fun? That's the balancing act that you have to do. And and not that we're setting out to make golf courses hard by any means, but um there's a certain amount of challenge you need in a course to to maintain interest. You know, there's there's very few um highly ranked courses that are just flat out easy. You know. Um there are some, not flat out easy. Um, of course, you know, environmental conditions and and weather play a huge role in that and and conditioning, but um we're just we're just after you know the most fun, creative, and uh memorable experiences that we can craft.

SPEAKER_03

On your site, it says your uh design philosophy, playability, aesthetics, and details. So what does that mean to you guys? Uh you mentioned the playability piece of it, right? We kind of talked about that, but um kind of go into the other pieces of the design philosophy.

SPEAKER_01

Um, you know, from a playability standpoint, you know, that's something that was really kind of hammered into us from from from Mr. Fazio. Um, you know, having proper play widths for the members that are going to hit it in those spaces, the golfers are gonna hit it in those spaces is super important. Um, there is nothing worse than um spending all day looking for your golf ball, you know, wherever it may be. Um, you know, the the amount of a green complex that is blocked out with bunkering or with hazard and how much of it is open for you know players that need to act, you know, run their shot into the green as opposed to flight their ball, you know, into the green complex. So from a playability standpoint, um, you know, I think that you know, that means for us getting the the right spaces available, you know, to be able um to be utilized by the golfers. From an aesthetic standpoint, um, golf is played in nature, it should be in a beautiful environment. If you look at all you know, many of the highly ranked courses um in the United States and around the world, um a lot of it is where they're situated and and the environment that they sit in. Um, you know, for us, the detail of what we put into that, um, you know, there's not a lot of golfers that can really stand on a T and and discern strategy, um, or maybe even have the game if they can discern the strategy to execute the strategy. But you know, everybody can stand there and say, like, wow, that looks amazing. That is beautiful. Um, and and frankly, we you know, we took that from our experience with Tom as well. Um, we got to learn from some just amazing people. Kevin Sutherland, who um Dave and I spent a lot of time with, um, one of our senior designers in the West Coast office, worked for Wadsworth for 15 years, a golf course builder. Um, and then he came to work to work for Mr. Fazio. And he was there, I think, for about 10 or 15 years when we got there approximately. And Kevin was just such a font of information. Um, he had so much experience. And, you know, as Dave mentioned, he, you know, we had to learn how to build a golf course before we were allowed to design the golf course. Um, and there's a lot of architects, believe it or not, that have no idea how a golf course is constructed. They really don't. They can't look in a trench and you know, understand if a pipe is in the trench properly the way it's supposed to be. Um, you know, they don't necessarily understand how to move dirt and how to move dirt efficiently. And you know, we got exposed to all of that. And and Kevin was a he was a great teacher. The lessons were not always easily learned, but they were learned at some point in time. And and he's a great friend, I mean, and and to both of us, and and you know, we were just really, really lucky. So, you know, playability-wise, making sure that the spaces are there, um, you know, for the people to play golf from a beauty standpoint, um, imparting all the details that everyone has just an amazing experience.

SPEAKER_00

So From a beauty perspective, I'm assuming sometimes you go to a place and there's almost a there's a canvas that's already drawn for you, right? You're almost like uh What was the guy on PBS where he'd be like, oh, we're just gonna make happy little birds? Ah. Right. But then there's other times where you know you're coming in and it's completely blank. Uh, I think I saw like in the Scottsdale one. It's just I mean, it's just desert. So which one, which one do you prefer? Do you prefer to be able to walk out into a land and a space and go, I can now envision the growing of the golf course in the middle of what exists? Or do you prefer to be like, let's bring in 600, 6 million tons of dirt and start pushing stuff around?

SPEAKER_02

I th um I I think they're both um, you know, really enjoyable uh projects and processes. They're just they're different. Um it's it's it's definitely easier or more just right in front of you of what needs to be done with a uh a very natural environment and a kind of a scratch it in type design. Um you know, in a way it's it's a lot easier. Um you know, you can spend a little bit more time on the the nuances of the routing and green locations and and and all of that, um, and really kind of in your mind perfecting where all those features go. Um but you're just you're just looking and listening to to what the land is giving you. Um when you don't have that starting point to react to, um from a creativity standpoint, your mind can go wild. So you know, i it it may it may be a little tough to kind of start getting the wheels rolling, but once they do, it's like it's so freeing from a from a creativity standpoint because you have to do something to make it special. Um and of course it takes it takes resources um in those situations, so it's a very special client that that can allow that project to even be um to the level of of success that you know you know it can be. Um but when those when those resources are there and those handcuffs are off, it's it's really it's really fun. Um and it's it's it's harder. It's a lot harder. You have to think of everything. Um and part of our philosophy when we need to do that is we still want it to feel natural, right? So we don't we try not to build very man-made, artificial looking courses, and and and it's odd to say that out loud because I mean I love Pete Dye and uh, you know, and I love Mike Strant's. Strant does a little bit more natural, did a little bit more natural type bold stuff, but I mean Pete's probably you know one of the one of the few that would be, you know, very, very man-made type looking stuff, but it still has such artistry to it that it's it's pleasing and and desirable to my my aesthetic. But um, you know, I I think I think we like doing both. We definitely don't don't prefer one or the other. Um but we get a we get a lot of satisfaction um and and um and there's a lot of kind of personal reward when you do create something from nothing. It's it's a it's a pretty darn good feeling. Um that being said, we would love nothing more than a made-for-golf site that we can just find great golf instead of having to create it because it it's it's easier, and that's that's not a knock on all the great courses that were just found. Um there's a lot of talent and and skill involved and creativity also to to make those um those really special. But you get a you get a big jump start on it when the land is just sitting there. I mean, you guys are golfers. I'm sure you've driven past farmland that you just look over and like, yep, that's a golf course. Uh, you know, you can see it. Um so it's they're they're uh it it's great that there's a wide range of types of projects out there from what they start with to what they finish. Um I think that just is is uh uh a benefit to the entire golfing community that there is that wide range of variety.

SPEAKER_03

One question I've had for golf architects and and kind of what you guys do, we listed out some of the courses you've done, right? Um, you know, Illinois, uh and Arizona, California, you mentioned Tim being down in Mexico. Like, how do you guys balance the travel, right? Like, because it's not just like, hey, we'll go over here for a week and knock something out. Like these are large long-term projects that you guys are doing. So how do you balance the travel of, you know, I've still got a home, home life place I call uh a resonance, um, and then all the different things you're doing, because I'm guessing you're juggling multiple projects at the same time.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, we we both have amazing wives. Um, and and honestly, our work life, home life balance is not in balance as much as we would like it to be or try to be. We we we are on site every week on our projects when it's on when it's under construction. One of the two of us, we have two uh young men who work with us who are great guys, Connor, uh Connor Doherty and Callan Hoppe. And um, but Dave and I like we still love it. We still love being out there in the dirt, we still love grabbing the paint gun and the flags. And um, you know, a lot of how we design is in the field, is in the dirt. We have the plans as a as a guide to start with, but you know, you can't sit at your desk, you know, 2,000 miles away from your project and and draw it and give it to a contractor and tell them to go build it and have it, you know, turn out the way that you would want it to, right? And and so, you know, it is a lot of travel. Um, you know, we're gone a lot. We miss um a lot of things that we would rather not miss, you know, in our family lives, and we try not to. Um, and we're fortunate, you know, we can control our schedules to a certain extent. And you know, we talk to each other and see who has going on what within the family life during a particular time frame and you know, cover for each other when we can and and and the guys help us out as well with that when they can. And um, but it it is very much not a balance, um, unfortunately. But the you know, the flip side of that is is that we get to do what we absolutely love for a living, and our wives know that. And um, and I think that you know, they know the joy that that brings to us in in allowing us to do that. Um so we we both we both way outkicked our coverages um when we got married, and and we're so fortunate that they're so supportive of what we do.

SPEAKER_03

Well, that makes that makes four of us then, because Jonathan and I are in the same boat. So we uh we outkicked our coverage as well.

SPEAKER_00

Where whenever you look at like historical well, first of all, I gotta go back to something. Is there really a red checker jacket for the Historical Society of Golf Architects?

SPEAKER_01

Is that like a lot of people? If it was red jacket, that it'd probably be better than what it is. No, I'm just trying to you know, David and I have been approached a couple times about joining the society, and I just told him, Listen, fat guys don't look good in red plaid boys, so I don't think it's for us, you know. So Dave's not, you know, you it looked good on him, maybe, but you know, not me.

SPEAKER_00

So does your jacket have to stay at the clubhouse or do you get to take it home?

SPEAKER_01

I mean, they they wear them quite prominently wherever they wherever they go. It's a great organization with some great people in it, and um and it's just you know, it's kind of tongue in cheek, obviously talking about it in this way, but but they do have some some you you can see them from a mile away. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00

That's fantastic. Well, then talking about the history of it all, are there architects that you think whenever you see a piece of land and you begin to think through this is how this architect would build it? This is how I could see, you know, strands, this is how he would design it. And do you pull inspiration from those moments of this is a course that we've seen before, we love that layout. How can we honor that in this particular space? That's a good question. Um what do you think, Dave?

SPEAKER_02

I mean, I've never really thought about that. Um I think subconsciously it it must happen. Um, but I don't think it's on the forefront of our brain. We it never comes up in in audible conversation that we're trying to emulate something. There are times when we do shape something and we comment like, oh man, look at that, that horizon line is really strengthy. It just kind of happened and we recognize it, but we didn't necessarily set out to do it. Yeah. Um, so I think I think that happens more than um than setting out to emulate or or embody another architect's style. But you know, we are who we are through our life experiences and what attracts to our eye, and and so that's that's definitely baked in. Um I know personally I have a lot of strands and and Pete Dye Um, you know, just in my brain, and and obviously time with Tom, that that is that's so baked in there that there's definitely elements that always keep coming up for sure. Um, but you know, we just we try hard to to stay fresh and stay creative and bring our own our own um twist to things. And you know, we always strive for doing something that we haven't done before, you know, and and sometimes you you you you try that a little bit and and explore in the dirt, and you're like, okay, we've we've we've gone too far, let's let's just go back to something that you know we know is gonna um work, not necessarily to be safe, but um, you know, you you always when you're trying to push for something that either hasn't been done or is a little bit outside the box, it's they all don't hit. Um but when they do, it's it's extra special. So um yeah, I I we're we're not we're not architects that um you know strive for doing restorations or or try to, hey, we're gonna design this course in the style of architect X, Y, or Z. We we really try to try to be our own guys, but but it's clearly, you know, influenced by all of our past experience.

SPEAKER_00

You just mentioned something I want to touch on or ask more about. Are there moments where you're in the middle of the build and you go, This hole's not gonna work? We've got to start all over. Like we've got to completely rethink how we're doing it and just like scrap the dirt, move it all over, start from scratch.

SPEAKER_02

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean it it not to the point we try not to do that like once grass is down, right? It's just but but there are times like, for example, Scottsdale National, the other course, hole number 17, we completely reshape that green complex five different ways in five different locations. Wow. Um it just it just wasn't ever feeling right. And and that's the the tricky part about what we do. Um, I guess maybe because we're not not that great, um, but sometimes you don't have a really clear vision and and what gets shaped just either didn't get, you know, something got lost in translation or it shaped exactly what you describe and it just didn't work for whatever reason. Um and you just you kind of just gotta go, all right, well what if? All right, well let's let's go try that, see if that works. And and your your eyes and your body just know it when you see it, even though you can't necessarily explain why it feels right. There's just something inside you that clicks, you're like, ah, this is it. I can't pick this apart anymore. I can't find any holes in it. So you just know, you know, in your gut that it's right. And that that it seems like every project seems to have one one or two of those areas, whether it's just a a a bunkering um setup or or a greens complex. Um it just some are just a little bit harder than others, and and other times you what you see in the first five seconds of looking at it or thinking of it is what you end up building, because it just you know you just had a clearer vision. Um so but that's that's the fun part, and that's why we spend so much time in the field so we can make those adjustments in in the flow of construction where we're not wasting dollars by undoing and ripping out drainage pipe and irrigation and turf. Um, you know, we need to be there in the moment so we can keep playing, um, you know, playing in the appropriate during the appropriate phase to not really impact schedule or budget.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and it's not just it's not just us. I mean, we get to work with such talented people in the field. Um, you know, the guys on the bulldozers, we one guy in particular, uh Joe Vivo, um, we always joke, the only guy in in the history of earth named Jose that can't speak a look of Spanish, but he's a Portuguese guy from the Bay Area. And and he is just an absolute artist on a bulldozer and and takes what's in our heads. And you know, we were up in Minnesota, we have a project going on right now outside of Minneapolis, and um and and Joe was working on a green complex, we were all working on a green complex, and and and David and Joe had created something that was really, really cool, really, really cool. But it like it, like Dave said, like it wasn't quite wasn't quite there. Um and and it's with respect to the how the bunkering was working with the green complex, and we always talk a lot about the lines that we're creating, the lines of golf and how they flow together. When we're talking to Joe, for instance, I mean, many times we're using you know words, thoughts, ideas that have nothing to do with golf, but just trying to express how the the lines need to work together. And and so we went away and and and Joe was working on it, and we came back and it's a dog leg came around the corner, and we both were just like full stop. Like that is so much better than what we had even thought for what he did. Um, and so to get to work with people like that, because it's always a it's always a team environment, you know, an owner, a builder, an architect, um, you know, if if it's not a team environment, it's not a very fun project, you know, to be quite honest. But we've we've had a couple of those, unfortunately. But um, but when it's all working together, man, it is it is so much fun. It, I mean, we're out there sometimes and we still, we still, I mean, pinch ourselves. Like we get to do this every day for a living. This is what we get to go do, and we're so blessed in that regard. I mean, when we wake, I, you know, I woke up this morning early here on the West Coast, and you know, I was excited because there was some stuff I was working on before we got on the call, and I just like couldn't wait to wake up because I had a thought in the middle of the night. It's like, man, I gotta go sketch that out and see what that looks like, you know. We get to do that every day. It's such a blessing.

SPEAKER_03

That's so cool. Well, Dave, you mentioned Scotchdale. That was one thing I was going to ask you about the bad little nine. Like, how did that come about? That's one of those uh basically all the courses in your design reel that you guys have touched and and done work on and or built are are on our bucket list. But that one, uh that one stands out once we first heard about it, the bad little nine. Tell us about that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so when we were um first starting to work with Bob Parsons, um we renovated a couple holes on the the original course golf club Scottsdale that he purchased and and then rebranded to Scottsdale National, which is now called the Mineshaft course. Um, when we were uh initially pitching plans for that course, we had rerouted that entire thing on paper and carved out an area on the on the hillside for a nine-hole par three course. So that was kind of like the first pitch to Bob that his property could have a par three course experience. And and he loved it. Uh didn't necessarily like it in the area that we told him about, but you know, throughout that that process, um, he acquired a lot more land and which which eventually became the space for the other course and the Bad Little Nine. So you know, when when it got time to really designing and and explaining to Bob what that experience was gonna be, he asked us he asked us a question that nobody else had asked us before, and it was, I know you guys are gonna build a great par three course, but what am I gonna brag about and you know what is what is gonna be special about it essentially? And and while we typically kind of we th we th we think that we you know work through that mentally in our own process, we we've never really been forced to think about it and explain that to somebody. So it was it was a great um opportunity for us to to kind of learn and and um even adjust how we do what we do in the design process, and it made it better. Um and so we said, listen, Bob, we'd we've never been asked that before. It's a great question. Let us let us think about it for the day and we'll get back to you tonight. And and so we huddled up behind the scenes and and from my recollection, I think Tim came up with the idea of let's create the hardest par three course in the world, not just for difficulty's sake, but to be able to provide a challenge and rewards, essentially create a real world video game, and and that would be like the hook. Um and you could, you know, dangle achievements with prizes and and whatnot. Um and and we pitched that to Bob in concept, and he loved it. So he said, go with that. And and then it was really up to us, so okay, well what what what is that? What is that physical manifestation of that very broad concept, right? Um, because again, it's something that we talked about earlier. It's like it's really, really easy to make something difficult, but how do you make it just doable enough where people are gonna want to keep playing it, right? And and so we started brainstorming what that could be and how that could manifest physically. And we kept focusing in on Bob's history with the Marine Corps and his military background, and and my brain just started thinking of all like old, old, you know, war sites and battlegrounds, and just the craziness of that terrain and old eroded war trenches, and you know, uh battlefields where you know uh grenades had gone off and just the ground is upheaved and just really kind of surreal landscape. Because the the last thing we could do is glean any information from another course in the world. Because Bob wanted something that was one of a kind, unique to Scottsdale National, unique to him. And so we really had to go outside the golf world to get inspiration. And so that's that's really where it all started. And we just, you know, looked through imagery and terminology of of of war and and the marines and military, and and when I heard a word or read a word or saw a picture that really just inspired an idea, it kind of crafted a golf hole around that. Um, some a little bit more more literal than others, but you know, and it just kind of um started taking on its own life, and and it had a great story arc through the experience. And um it was probably to date and quite possibly um could say this at the end of our career, it it it might be the most fun project. It is the most fun project we've ever been involved in, that course. I mean, talk about no handcuffs, whatever you wanted to do, uh, even if it seemed like, well, that's not maintainable, you know. He had he had the desire and he had the resources to put behind making it making it so. And and there was never a talk about um dollars, there was never a talk about um any detail we wanted to do. It's just if we felt it was best, um, whoever we is, you know, the team that was out there, and and Jose Vivo was actually the shaper on that as well, and um, you know, came up with a bunch of really cool adjustments and improvements in the moment. You know, some of the greens we had on paper got built, and some of them are nothing like we had planned when we went into the dirt, but all of them turned out because it's a really, really special place. Um, we pinch ourselves every time you know we get to go back and and experience it. It's it's it's pretty amazing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Without having played it before, what makes it the most difficult? Because in theory, and again, I'm like a 21 handicap, so the theory's loose at this point. But in theory, a par three is you're at a T-box, you got a hundred and thirty-yard shot, you hit it onto the green, and then you four putt.

SPEAKER_02

So, like, what's well that first part of hitting it on the green is is the first challenge on a lot of these holes. Um, four putt on so on there's uh every Friday is when it is deemed the hardest course in the world, and that when that is when the reward of a thousand dollars for shooting par better is is on the table. Wow. It's called challenge day. There are very specific hole locations where all nine pins go to set up that challenge and difficulty. Um, you know, other days of the week, there's there's five or six holes that just have funnels, right? I mean, we've been we've seen a lot of aces on that course, but but not on challenge day. Um so you know, to the point of to the um point of you know making it still enjoyable to play, it w it was very important to us to prove to Bob that you want people to still play this. So you want it to be fun most of the time, but you know, just set up that challenge one day a week and just kick people in the nuts and and they're gonna it's the most fun you can have, yeah. You know, shooting 40 over par. So you know it's kind of funny that you mentioned you know hit on the green and four putt. Well, uh I'm sure Tim has had it as well, but I've multiple, multiple times I've had greens where I I 20 plus putt. What? And and it that sounds not fun and ridiculous, but when you got a group of guys with money on the line all watching you, and they are just rolling on the ground laughing at you, it is so much, it's really hard to get upset. It's so much fun. I mean, we were playing with a group of 16 guys um from Southern California, and we were having a big match, and uh uh hole number three's got this kind of it's a big horseshoe green with big amphitheater on the right, and there's this challenge pin front left that is just on this pimple. And and 15 of us were just kind of sitting on the hillside watching for the la waiting and watching the last guy putt out, and he had a four foot putt for a five, and he walked off with a twenty. That's insane. I mean, 19 people was the happiest time of their life, right? And one guy is just walking off that green with his with his tail between his legs, and just it it is it's so much fun. Um it it's it's there's a weird like scale and and just i i nothing like no um data that we've kept, but it seems like it it goes past the absurdity of hard where it actually becomes fun again, right? Right. Um

SPEAKER_00

No one wants to triple, but a twenty over is like you'll never believe what I did the other day. Right.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so every golf's got a story, right? Yeah. So there was this um on it's kinda there's there's a little bit of an oddwritten rule. Um, you know, if you do and it's only been done once, but if you do shoot par better on challenge day, you just kinda just keep it to yourself, you know? And uh and one day I was out there and I play and and I and I saw right after I played, I saw Bob and I s and I was kind of just making a joke to him, but he didn't know this at the time. I'm like, hey Bob, I just want to let you know, I just played the Battle of Nine, I made I made all threes and two twos. And his eyes lit up and he he's like, kind of like, why are you telling me this? Like, yeah, and uh I'm like, no, no, no, don't worry. I made eight threes and a 22.

SPEAKER_00

Bar was safe. That's awesome. I gotta go we gotta go visit my family.

SPEAKER_03

Like, my seriously, we gotta figure out how to get on there on uh on challenge day, yeah. Or just in general.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, no, we know some we know a guy. My dad, my dad and my sister live in uh Gilbert area, and so we go out a couple times a year to hang out and everything. I mean, I gotta go find us. I love nine hole horses because well, I mean, in theory, you're not swinging a club 120 times, and it's all it's an easy walk, right? Unless you unless you're playing. Yeah, but you're not you're putting a hundred, you know, you're putting 90 of those. So yeah. That should be great.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it's uh it's a great, it's a great walk, and it's you know, all golf is made better with with great buddies by your side, but uh, there's something even more fun about that place with the right group of guys. Yeah, you feel like a kid again, and that was kind of the intent. Um, you know, we've seen some pretty stodgy people go and play it, and just they're all smiles when they when they play around that course, which is really cool for us to see that um that effect that course has on people.

SPEAKER_03

That's great. Well, congrats on that. I I know uh Fazo has had a huge impact on you guys, and and you talked, we asked a little bit about historical architects. Who are some of the contemporaries, folks that are doing it today, like you guys, that y'all respect, that you like their work, um, folks that uh that people should look out for.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, there's there's a lot of guys who are doing some you know some pretty amazing stuff. Um, you know, I would say, and I know Dave's probably gonna, he's thinking the same name, um, a gentleman that we work with at Fazio, Scott Hoffman. Um, Scott is so extraordinarily talented. Um he just uh not just in the last couple years did a project uh outside of Omaha called Lost Rail, and it is phenomenally good. And he's got a couple more in the pipeline. Scott's a great friend of ours. Um he was with us for a while, kind of between uh Fazio and and kind of doing his own thing and um have a have a ton of respect for for Scott and and how good he is at what he does. Um just just does incredible stuff. You know, I I think we I have an affinity for you know you know a lot of what Core Crenshaw you know puts out. Um, you know, David Kidd's done some amazing, some amazing work. Um, you know, obviously Gil Hands, you know, the the the cream tends to rise to the top in in golf course architecture, and there's always eras of golf course design. And you know, we we're in an era right now of a lot of really, really good golf being constructed and designed, I think. Um the interesting part of that is that a lot of it kind of tends to look um look similar. You know, there's a lot of that kind of scratched in, natural, sandy site, which is great golf, which is which is really, you know, really cool. Um, but it's just interesting that a lot of what has been built in the last you know 20 years um and considered to be really good all looks really similar to a large extent. Doesn't make it right or wrong. Um I think it's just really interesting that we're kind of in that era right now. And um, you know, as Dave mentioned earlier, you know, Mike Strant and Pete Dye, we both have a lot of respect for what they did. I mean, Pete Dye, he was crazy. I mean, the I just played PGA West Stadium um a couple months ago, and you know, standing in the middle of 16 Fairway and and looking at San Andreas on the left-hand side and thinking, man, Pete Dye stood there because Pete Dye didn't, there were no plans for Pete Dye. I mean, honestly, and and for him to stand there and just say, you know what, I got an idea. I got a thought. Let me let me see what happens with this one, right? And gosh, it's just so bold and it's so cool. And if you're out there, you know, late in the afternoon, the way the shadows play across that golf course are so amazing. But um, but yeah, no, there's a lot of cool stuff out there.

SPEAKER_03

That's fun. That's fun to see what uh what you guys are doing. So what uh what part of the country do y'all like doing your work? And and I was serious earlier, like when are you guys? I'm I'm in South Carolina, Jonathan's in Augusta, Georgia. When are y'all coming towards the southeast?

SPEAKER_02

We're trying. I mean, three years ago I moved from Arizona to North Carolina, so um, you know, I would love to not keep traveling back west. It's it's a long journey. Yeah. Where in North Carolina are you? Chapel Hill.

SPEAKER_03

Okay.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And so we're we're we're working. Um we got some fuelers out and trying to get our name known, trying to get some opportunities in this region. Um so hopefully, um hopefully sooner than later we get an opportunity and and uh you know with all we can do is one, right? And and hopefully we do a good job, and and that that snowballs into another one. So um we're definitely trying and looking to get into this region um and kind of expand our our reach. Um so but nothing uh nothing that we can talk about or uh nothing yet, but we're all top secret. All top secret. We got it no, no, there's not even anything top secret that I'm not telling you. So I wish there was. Um but yeah, one one day, one day we'll make it happen.

SPEAKER_00

I've got I've got a piece of properties picked out for a nine-hole golf course here in Augusta. Tiger Woods might steal my thunder by since they're apparently designing their own at the old municipal with the Augusta National, but maybe if I I keep buying those lottery tickets. That's a good question. So, because I've been budgeting this out and I think I've got a number. I want to build a lit par three course. This this might offend your sensibilities. I'd like to do artificial greens because I know they can receive balls now up to about 200 yards. Yeah, I'd like to make it a full family event. I'd like to have a small couple holes that would be just like families, like little kids could come and you know, 30 yard shots, that type of thing. So what's a reasonable project per hole for something like that? I've guesstimated 15 million.

SPEAKER_02

So we're we're building a an artificial par three course in Portland, Oregon right now. It'll it'll open up this year. Um 100 yards and under, uh all all artificial green complexes, bunkering, all of its artificial, teas artificial, and then everything else is real grass in between. Um it's it what's it sit on? 30 acres? Yeah, I think it's 19 holes. They're gonna have a uh a putting slash chipping course as well. Yeah. Um it will not be lit. Lights are expensive. They are lights alone on a 30, let's just call it a nine hole par three coast. I mean, lights are gonna cost you like a million, million and a half. Just each or just yeah, not one light. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

No, I figured it I figured it was like 250 a pole. Around two to two fifty. Yeah, just less than between yeah.

SPEAKER_02

All right. Just just pencil and a million and a half, or pencil and two million in your own. I'm good, I'm good with that. No, conservative. That's budget. Yeah. Fifteen million is uh now. Do you have to acquire the land? The land's like two million bucks.

SPEAKER_00

Do you have um financial backers? Uh I'm not willing to take that risk. I buy a lottery ticket every once in a while.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

No, do you know do you have people we should we should talk offline? I think. We should, because I know there are people in town that would be willing to do it. My vision is a really cool, like alongside like almost the entire length of it would be like a restaurant, fire pits, so that guys who want to go out and take a 45-minute round of golf, right? They can do that while their kids and their families and everybody else are doing all the things. Um turn it into a and then I'd also want a replica number four of the national.

SPEAKER_01

Ooh, we we don't do replicas.

SPEAKER_00

And we're at the broke up. I'll talk about it offline.

SPEAKER_03

Why? I'll talk line why. No, he's not great. That takes out your hundred yards and less territory. Why can't you say that online?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, I can say it online. My vision would be that it would be you pay a hundred bucks, you get three shots. If you get a hole in one, you win a hundred thousand dollars. And fifty of that goes to a charity of your choice, and you get to keep 50. And then all the money, 50% of the funds that come in from those hundred bucks, automatically go to different charities. So we either have a charity of the month, or during the masters, we have a charity of the day, and it turns into like, because I mean my favorite hole is hole number four at the national. I think it's the most ridiculous long par three. We probably do like 185. We wouldn't do like the 220 or whatever, but set it up so that people could come, they could, you know, with their buddies while they're out there, throw the hundred bucks down and try to hit their whole.

SPEAKER_02

Do you see that being a separate hole, not part of the round step its own little menu? Yeah. Yeah. Let's get you out to the bad little nine first and see if your favorite hole changes.

SPEAKER_03

All right. I like it.

SPEAKER_02

I will say this. Not not not a knock on the golf hole at all, but more of a knock on the distance. Yeah. The shorter the shorter shots are way more fun for people.

SPEAKER_00

Well, no, I understand. That no, the rest of the course would be very short, like like you talked about. But this one would be Yeah. I again we're in Augusta, so I always envision like the weekend of Masters, you just have people lined up handing you hundred dollar bills, and it would be good massive amounts of opportunities for nonprofits. That's my thing about that.

SPEAKER_03

So I l I love the idea. Yeah. Yeah. We need to talk. Sounds like a field trip to Arizona and Portland, though.

SPEAKER_02

So and Augusta.

SPEAKER_03

And Augusta. All right. Sounds good. Well, let's uh let's talk about you guys and your playing. One question we ask all our guests is to tell us the story, because we love golf stories, of your most memorable golf shot.

SPEAKER_02

Oof.

SPEAKER_03

That's hard to pick one. You guys are really good then. Holy cow. I've got three in my whole life. I was going the opposite direction with that one.

SPEAKER_02

I'll start. I I'm just this is just what has popped into my head, and so maybe that has some some conscious meaning of it's the most memorable, I don't know, but it's the one that came first into my head. Um I I was playing in in Arizona with a buddy and we were playing on a a par three course in Phoenix, and we we kind of um snaked our way into playing again for free. We kind of talked our weasel our way in and and they're like, all right, that's fine, you can you can play again, but like we're shutting down, we're pulling all the flags. I was like, that's fine, whatever. We're just out having fun at sunset. And and we get to like the fifth hole, it's like 130 some yards. Again, there's no flags in the greens. We have no idea where the pin is. I mean, we did play it, but we're we're not focused, so we're um we have we have no idea. But I I hit the shot and it and it rolls a couple times and it just disappears. So, you know, making an ace without a flag in the green was was pretty damn cool. Yeah, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I'll um I'll I'll preface mine by saying the the fact that I got the shot airborne was my success. Um again, I'm from a small town in Indiana, I'm a yokel. I live in Southern California now. And the first time I went to play Bel Air Country Club, I show up in shorts. Um, there are several clubs in the United States of America you don't show up in shorts in, and Bel Air is one of those unbeknownst to me.

SPEAKER_00

Were they George or were they real shorts? No, they were they were they were real shorts.

SPEAKER_01

All right.

SPEAKER_00

I didn't know how Indiana we were because I'm from Illinois.

SPEAKER_01

That's okay. I appreciate that. Listen, let's you know, you gotta ask. So um so I'm walking through the men's locker room and James Garner stops me and he says, Son, you need to cover those up, and I have no idea what he's talking about. And and I look at him with a blank stare, and he says, Your legs. He goes, You can't wear shorts here, son. And I mean, you I mean, you just feel like this big, right? Um, so you know, now I got to get to the pro shop and get there with seeing as few people as I can, um, buy a pair of$200 pants that don't fit, um, and now go to the first T and try to swing the golf club. And if you play Bel Air Country Club, the the men, well, what used to be the men's grill, it's the grill now, um, you know, basically backs right up to the first T and the 10th T at Bel Air. And there are people watching all the time. Um, drawing that club back and hoping, hoping, praying that I was gonna hit it somewhere in the just the right cardinal direction that I was going um was was a goal. And and I did, and I got it down the fairway, and I could not have been more relieved to be a hundred yards from that clubhouse when I was walking down the hill and actually out on the golf course. But that is one of my most memorable shots. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I got I got one more that came to mind that's kind of funny. And uh I'm probably 15 or 16. I'm playing in uh uh the Future Masters down in Dothan, Alabama. And um I made the turn uh on the on the first round, and I start on the back nine, so I get to the first T, and that's where the photographer is taking everyone's picture for a little memento um after after the the tournament's over. And it it just starts raining and like pretty, pretty hard, but they haven't blown the whistle yet, and I'm up. And and back then I was hitting um I hit a lot of wire one irons off the tee, and I never, ever, ever wore a glove. And so I get up, got that one iron in my hand, I take it back, I I rip it down the middle, my club goes, slips out of my hand, goes by 80 yards down the fairway and lands in a tree. Right? And there's a big crowd around here, and it's like you just hear a gasp. I hit the shot good. It wasn't, but like everyone's like, oh, and and I find out after the round, we get handed the picture. This the photographer got a picture of me posing with just no club in my hand. And it's just like I'm super focused, and I just got no club in there, and it's just it's one of the most iconic pictures. I've I have lost that picture over the years, but I wish I had it. But um, that was a pretty memorable moment. The club's not in the background of the photo, it's nowhere airborne. And I'm not like look, I don't have a weird look on my face. I look like I'm posing normally after a golf shot, just with no club. It's like, uh, what's going on? Very nice.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's hilarious. Well, another thing we like to do to wrap up is what we call the quick nine. So we'll just a little back and forth here. Uh, what is the favorite course that you've played?

SPEAKER_01

I mean, for me, every time I get on the bad little nine the first T, um, I'm not disappointed.

SPEAKER_02

Really? Yeah, it's it's it's really selfish to say bad little nine and the other course. Um, if I had to pick something that's not ours, it's Friar's Head. All right. Course at the top of your bucket list. Pine Valley. That'd be Pine Valley for me.

SPEAKER_00

Very nice. All right. Who is in your dream foresome? And you can exclude each other. That way it is. This is a good foresome right here. We we would exclude each other.

SPEAKER_02

Um this is gonna sound this may sound weird. Um Jimmy Fallon. Uh Jason Bateman and Will Arnett. Oh, that would be a little sm smartless fan here.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, big time. Who cares what happens on the course? That's a good day. Yeah, yeah, that's a great day.

SPEAKER_01

I honestly I I I'm gonna have to punt on that one. I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_03

So all right, the four of us. We're in your dream fortune. Nice. All right. Um on the webpage in your workshop, you've got alternate university. I I did a lot of digging on your website. I found all the flags, by the way. I was gonna bring that up at the end of the day. Way too much time looking for it.

SPEAKER_02

I want to we're we're gonna end on that. I want to know how how you found out how much time you spent. Way too much.

SPEAKER_03

Um what is the dream course that you would like to re redesign? Oh, geez. A lot of time, a lot of time on your website.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I'll I'll say this for me. We personally, we I we got to redesign our dream course at Monterey Peninsula Country Club. Um, to get to redesign one of the seven courses of the Monterey Peninsula was again sheer, sheer dumb luck and timing and and just an amazing experience.

SPEAKER_02

I don't I don't know if I I may have to punt on that one too. I I I I definitely crave more raw land than a renovation, so I haven't I haven't given that much thought. Um so I'm gonna I'm gonna be disrespectful and punt.

SPEAKER_00

It's fine worse. What is your favorite feature on a golf course? Tim's is the bar. As it should be. The hot dog on the turn.

SPEAKER_01

Listen, we've been trying to put a bar in the middle of the putting green for like, you know, 15 years and seeing, you know, and we got close. We've got close a couple times, but no, um, what's the favorite feature? Um, you know, obviously the you know the green complexes, um, I mean, that's the the the defining character, can be the defining character of any, you know, any golf course. And the amount of time that we spend on that and that thought process and and the bunkering as well. I mean, you know, the the things that really stand out and the things that really pop, right? Those are those are fun.

SPEAKER_02

Are you are you were you asking more like a very specific feature? Like at a s at a place. No.

SPEAKER_03

Answer at your own uh your own discretion. Yeah, there's I like the bar answer. No, no, seriously though, but like you said at Bel Air, Tim, and uh Jonathan talked about his, you know, your par three courts, but the courses that have abilities where people can watch others either finish or tee off, um, I think are great because again, it brings together people of stories, laughter, you know, amazement. Like it's uh it's great.

SPEAKER_02

Those close proximities, like shared teas on different holes. I I love teas that hit over previous screens. I think that's a really cool feature. I don't think enough of that quirk is done in America. Um you see it all the time overseas, and for some reason it's like taboo over here, and I don't understand the logic there. Probably lawyers, but um yeah, it's I love I love the features that you don't see everywhere else, and I can't really like throw one off the top of my head, but the ones that stop you in your tracks are like, whoa, that is either odd or weird or really cool, or um those are the features that I like. Just there's a bunker at the sandbox in Sand Valley on one of the holes that like you can't even stand in it, it's so small. And it's like it was so cool. It's like, well, it's just a listen a little dollop of sand, you know. Um so I love those things that kind of catch you off guard.

SPEAKER_03

And it's probably a magnet for everything. Of course, right? Of course, yeah. Uh all right, what do golf courses need more of? Fun. Yeah, fun. They need more fun, yeah. Short, short holes. Uh these massive par threes like Jonathan wants. Def the five short holes.

SPEAKER_02

What do you mean by that? Um, I would love, well, I'd I'd love I'd love to design a course that's uh just short threes, short fours, and short fives. Um so all drivable fours, all reachable fives, and like wedges and under par threes. Like those are the most fun golf holes for everyone to play. So I don't know why we're I understand in the world of variety you want f floated around and everything, but we've done that 15,000 times in this country. So like maybe let's not do that again. If you do that, space out the tea times, like what a great day, right? Yeah, I I think 18 drivable fours would be such an incredible experience when done correctly.

SPEAKER_00

Well um the nice part is that if you're bad at golf like I am, it still makes it a fun day because a drivable par four, say 350 or something like that, where you're you know you're you've got an option if you're a really good golfer, also puts me, you know, with uh uh an iron and an iron, I can probably still get to the green and two just the same.

SPEAKER_02

But that's the thing. You need to be you you need it designed correctly, and your ego needs to get out of your way. So you're playing a T that is at your driver distance. You should already be able to read. That's the problem. You can't hit a driver. Well, get up to the forward T then. I don't know. I can't help you anymore. Well, I know. We're trying to get him hit a driver. It's common.

SPEAKER_00

I've had four lessons. There's lots of problems with my golf game.

SPEAKER_02

So okay. Well, fair enough.

SPEAKER_00

As long as you can admit it. That's the first step. That's the first step. It took 10 years to admit it. So all right. Tim, what do you think golf courses need more? Oh, you already said fun. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. All right. Uh, this is my favorite question. Favorite snack on the golf course.

SPEAKER_02

You cut out there.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, sorry.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, no, no, no worries. Yeah. No, Jonathan cut out. I can't I can hear his I can see his mouth moving, but he's not. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

All right, Jonathan, ask that one again. What's your favorite snack on the golf course?

SPEAKER_02

Um, an IPA.

SPEAKER_00

Liquid uh nourishment.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I love it. I got a bad stomach, so I'm not really snacking on the course. So water. Water water.

unknown

Water.

SPEAKER_03

Boo. All right, water boyer. I'm still fun on the course, I promise. Favorite golf course logo.

SPEAKER_02

Ooh. I I love Pasa Tiempo is really cool.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um, I think the new logo that MPCC created was is pretty awesome. Um man, there's so there's so many good ones.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I'm trying to think like which club I have the most shirts of in the closet. Probably is a good indicator. But um MPCC did they did something pretty special with how they they developed their logo pulling it from one of the original uh Spanish maps of the Monterey coastline from the 1700s. It's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00

Good answers. All right. Last question what's next for JacksonCon design?

SPEAKER_01

Well, um not metaphorically, but literally. We have um you know. Number of uh projects in the pipeline that we're we're super excited about. Um, we're working in Minnesota right now, uh just outside of Minneapolis at YZA Country Club, and it's it's it's it's turning out really cool and just a fun, fun group of people to work with at that club that we've got to meet and go through this process with. And we're really enjoying that. Um, you know, we've walked some some new land um in the western U.S. here recently that is probably the the best um piece of natural ground that we've ever seen for golf that we would have had the opportunity to to work on. Um we're gonna do a project um uh outside of Las Vegas. It's gonna start in um it's gonna start in July, actually an existing golf course that some gentlemen purchased and are gonna take it private and redevelop it and and that'll be that'll be an interesting, an interesting project. And I think a lot of fun too. So we're we're busy. We're very blessed with the amount of work that we have and the projects that we have. And um, you know, so it's from from that aspect, um, we got a lot of stuff to put our name on um and be a part of here coming up shortly. So Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

We've had a good fortune, some great clients, some great projects and great opportunities. A lot of them, most of them have been high-end private. Um, some of them have been higher end personal. And so, you know, the flip side is not a lot of people have seen our work. And so our hope is in the future to get a little bit more public exposure and and uh either resort or or public venues that people can actually come and and see what we're all about. So that's that's our long-term goal.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. No, it's uh we think what you guys are doing are is great. Um again, all the courses y'all have done are high up on our bucket list. Um but it's uh it's fun chatting with you guys, just hearing the process, hearing what y'all are all about. Um and I love the uh I love the thought. Uh and maybe I'll ask this one final bonus quick nine question that that Bob Parsons gave you guys is like what what makes him like be able to brag to his friends or brag to everybody about Jackson Cod. So what what do you guys brag about when when you say, hey, you guys should uh come hire us to either redesign or build your golf course?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, we're we're actually David and I are are are both pretty non-self-promoters by nature. So and that's we'll do it for you then. Oh, we appreciate that. Yeah, no, we um, you know, well, you know, to Bob's point, um, we try not to design like others. We really try to do original work as much as we can. Um like Dave said, we're we're not the restoration guys. And the guys that do that, it's it's it's it's all good. And but man, we just you know, we just love being as creative as we can, creating as much um fun golf as we can. You know, we both, you know, can relatively control where our golf ball goes and and to to to create opportunities for shots that are very memorable. Um, you know, there's nothing better in golf than watching your ball slowly get closer to the hole, right? So, you know, creating, you know, the type of golf that that really promotes uh just uh such a fun atmosphere is something that we really, really strive to do. And and we've been we've been fortunate to be taught how to do that, and we've been fortunate to execute projects that that promote that.

SPEAKER_02

So um we just we don't let others we don't look at it as bragging, but when we're pitching ourselves, I guess, to a potential client, we we express that we're we're very competent at what we do, we're passionate for what we do, we give our our all, you know, we're committed, and we know how to we know how to direct, we know how to build correctly, we know how the builders should build correctly, we know how to stay on budget, on schedule. So those are the things that we really brag about, uh, more so than, you know, look at us, we're the best designers in the world, even though we, you know, we we we feel that inside at times. Um we're we're just we're we're very comfortable in our own skin and we're and we're confident in what we do, but we're not um we're not cocky about it, and we we know our place and we know it takes more than just us to make a project successful.

SPEAKER_00

So it takes Joe as well.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yes. So I gotta hear I gotta hear about your capture the flag um adventure. How how first of all, how long did it take from start to finish?

SPEAKER_03

Uh I I took a couple breaks. Uh Monterey Peninsula was the the hardest, uh Monterey was the hardest uh to find.

SPEAKER_02

Um did you find naturally or using any sort of AIDS?

SPEAKER_03

Uh well I got clued in when I found I don't know which one it was, but like the I'm not gonna tell where if but yeah, I figured out on one of them uh what you were even looking for. Yeah, and then that kind of clued me into I need to start looking at other spots. And it it took way too long. But no, I I recommend everybody uh check out JacksonCon design. Uh great website. But like besides the the the things that you guys have done, um, yeah, there's there's some fun, uh, a little capture of the flag game, looking for some of the flags, but you've got sketches, you've got a community that y'all are building with uh with people that are you know designing alternate holes or learning how to sketch or doing some, I think you called it ping-pong kind of sketches, collaboration type stuff. So y'all are building a community and I think giving back in uh in great ways to uh to others that maybe want to have a future in uh in doing stuff like you guys do. So well done on that.

SPEAKER_02

Well, I appreciate you spending time on there and and the plug. You know, I felt like I always kind of you know wanted that helping hand when I was um growing up trying to get into the business. And so anytime anyone um younger kind of asks, how do I get into the business, or do you have any suggestions, or can you help out in any way? Just kind of I'm always always willing to help because I I was there once and too many, even like Tim says, you know, we we don't want to be the guys giving nasty letters to kids saying, What the heck are you trying to chase this dream for? Yeah, we we want to embrace that and um help them help them on their journey too. I love it.

SPEAKER_03

So uh it's been great to uh chat with you guys. So Tim. Dave, thanks for uh joining us on this episode of the Whole Story Podcast.

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Jonathan Hill

Co-host
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Robby Woodard

Co-host