The Hole Story - Golf Podcast

[REPLAY] - The Story of Don Placek & Renaissance Golf Design

• BestBall • Season 4

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 1:07:46

Give another listen to our episode with Don Placek of Renaissance Golf Design.

In this episode of The Hole Story Podcast, we welcome Don Placek of Renaissance Golf Design—a true craftsman whose passion for golf runs as deep as the Nebraska sandhills.

Don joins Robby and Jonathan for an insightful conversation that tee’s off with his roots in municipal public golf and travels all the way through his world-renowned work alongside Tom Doak and the Renaissance team. We discuss the magic of shaping courses that blend seamlessly into their landscapes, the importance of playing partners (spoiler: golf is all about the people), and the artistry behind letting the land dictate the course, not just moving dirt for dirt’s sake.

https://www.renaissancegolf.com/

https://www.instagram.com/placekgolf/

BestBall Links:

Friends of BestBall:

*Music by AlexGrohl via Pixabay

SPEAKER_01

Our group, my colleagues are Eric Iverson, Brian Schneider, and Brian Slanik. And um, the four of us have been working with and for Tom for decades. Um, and I I think one of the things that makes what we do interesting is it really is it's a fluid creative process. It's not so much come up with an idea and build the idea as it is, you know, throw a rock in the pond and see what the waves look like. And if you like the waves, then then you're good. Or if you don't, throw in another rock in a different spot. And and it's really it becomes a um a process of collaborative editing.

SPEAKER_03

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of the Whole Story Podcast. Robbie here. Today we finish up our May series where we looked on Mondays at different golf architects. We're taking another look back at our friend Don Plasic, who is with Renaissance Golf Design. Right behind me, you see Ball and Neal Golf Club, one of the projects they've done. They've done stuff everywhere. Uh, great guy, great interview, and you guys are gonna like this one. Uh, I hope you enjoy it. Go check out all the great things they are doing because they their courses are just amazing. So uh great interview, great chat with Don, a new friend. Uh as always, we are brought to you by our friends at Summit Golf Brands Bee Drati Zero Striction Fairway and Green. Rocking a little fairway and green shirt here now. They make great stuff. If you go to any of their websites and use Best Ball20, you can get 20% off your order. Well, I hope you've enjoyed this month's uh look back at different golf architects. We'll do this again. There's so many great golf architects out there. We want to continue helping to share and tell their stories because we get to uh enjoy the many great golf courses that they design and build for us. But today we are looking back at our episode with Don Plasic. Y'all enjoy. All right, again, joining us today on the Whole Story Podcast, Don Plasic. Don, thanks for being here. My pleasure entirely, Robbie. Yeah. Well, Jonathan already mentioned that you have an incredible background, and I'm sure we'll uh background one in what you've done, but right behind you right now. Uh, and I'm sure we'll talk a little bit about that. But we want to back it up to when you first got into golf.

SPEAKER_01

Mm-hmm. Well, I'm golf's been a part of my life um from the very beginning. My dad was a teaching pro at Lakewood Country Club in Denver, Colorado, a Donald Ross course. Um, he was an assistant pro there, and and life uh for him was all very much golf oriented as well. He did his growing up in Nebraska. Um, so I he had a chance to take a head job at a small course in McCook, Nebraska. Uh when I was in second grade, so we our family moved there and I got to play as much golf as I could have ever wanted. And you know, that's really where my l love for it came from. Um and it was fostered by all the people around me that encouraged a young person to be on the golf course and and taught you how not to walk in someone's line and where you should stand when someone's hitting and how to play ready golf and all those kinds of things. So um I've been around it my whole life and really grateful for not just the golf start, but the the people part of it. And it it really made a a path for me to follow um and how to treat people on the course and off the course and at the end of the day, how to be a good golf companion. Um, because if you can do that, it doesn't matter if you can break a hundred or not. And uh so I I was fortunate to learn that early from the people around me, and uh that's really how I got my start.

SPEAKER_02

That's an interesting statement there, especially from an architect. Whenever you're designing and thinking about a golf course, are you thinking about how people are going to interact and engage and feel at the end of the round, besides just scoring and what it looks like?

SPEAKER_01

That's a great question, Jonathan. I I think the answer to that is yes, and it it's kind of, you know, what context? Um going around all the courses at Sand Valley recently with three of my lifelong friends in the game who I owe a great deal too. Um, we talked about that a lot. And it's, you know, it is who you're playing golf with. And if you're playing with people whose company you enjoy, that instills a measure of confidence and some room for error. Whereas, you know, sometimes with your you're playing with folks you've never met before, it trying to sort that out and and sort of how to go about it is interesting. I grew up caddying, so that was there was a lot of that too. But I think from an architectural standpoint, we talked all the time while we were there about how important it is to be in play off the tee. You don't have to be more than 150 yards, but if if you're if you're findable and you can hit it and advance it again, the psychology of of enjoying a golf course is so important um with that. And I know, you know, as as you get more accomplished and and you're able to play better and your abilities improve, you know, driving the ball becomes something that you're more capable of doing. But gosh, it it's just it's demoralizing when your three buddies are in play off the tee and you're not, and that doesn't happen all the time, but um, after it happens one or two, it gets tough. And I think, you know, that's getting everybody out of the gate is important and then let them run their own race from there.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, when you when your friends are walking down the fairway and you make a right to the woods or something like that.

SPEAKER_01

Indeed. Indeed. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, well, Sand Valley is a a great place to be able to enjoy that because uh it is very wide open. So most of the time you should be able to find a fairway, uh, if not the one you're supposed to be in, maybe the next one. So yeah, no, that's uh that's really interesting, and I I like that concept. And and you mentioned something earlier, like it doesn't matter what you score, it it's about being a good person to be on the course with. And and I'll even go to the to the the stranger aspect, right? It's one thing to play with friends, but two, it's another thing to meet people on the first T. And you can quickly figure out like, is this someone I'll be friends with at the end of the round, or am I just gonna enjoy the course and and I've already uh not written them off, but like kind of know quickly, because golf's golf will reveal character very fast.

SPEAKER_00

No request.

SPEAKER_03

So yeah, I I like that thought. We always say golf is people, uh, and we just we love it again, not because of the scores. We do enjoy great courses, but it's about uh, like you said, about the three uh folks that you get to do it with that day. So one no question about it, agreed.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Well, Kurt, so you you grew up in the game, you had a great experience learning about, you know, the the uh etiquette of the game and all this other stuff. When did the artistic side come into play? When did you start saying, you know, I I kind of like drawing and designing and doing this kind of stuff?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that was about the same time, honestly. I'm I'm really grateful, Robbie, that I had parents that um my mom was a teacher uh in elementary school, and obviously my dad was a a teacher of golf. And they had the wherewithal to just try and expose myself and my sisters to as many different things as possible. Because you don't know what you like, uh, you know, and typically we grow up liking what our parents like, or whether it's the music that they play, we end up liking that. Um, but my mom in particular always had a blank pad or a big chief pad with crayons and you know, colored pencils and things because that was those were her tool, the tools of her trade. So I was around them a lot, and and um, and so it just it's just sort of happened. Um, the golf part of it was already there, and then the paper and pencil or crayon aspect of it, those two things were kind of just moving at a very similar parallel um pace. And I I just loved to draw. I learned pretty early that I did not have the capacity to to do portraits or living things. I was much better at landscapes and and inanimate, relatively inanimate things like trees and and and landscapes because it was you really couldn't do that wrong. It was all sort of all in the behigh eye of the beholder. I didn't spend much time trying to draw people's faces and things because if I did, they never actually looked like that person. So there was there was a built-in metric for that, but with landscapes and stuff, I had it was never wrong. It was just whatever I saw it. And and I think that that freedom kind of um developed that interest, I think.

SPEAKER_02

So where did your influence come from if you were to look back? Because you talked about starting golf early in the Colorado area and then moving to Nebraska. Uh those are only kind of most recently destination golf locations, right? We live in the South and everyone just assumes you go where it's warm and you can be there year round. So where did where does your influence come from? Is it just historical places? Is it drawing from experiences and courses that you've played?

SPEAKER_01

I think it's all of it. Um and it and golf is just so fascinating that way because every door you open gives you three more doors after that. Um and so early on, you know, I uh growing up in Nebraska, there was only the one golf course. But when uh um when you get exposed to that one big course, you know, the really big one that you have don't know anything about, and you have this realization that golf is so much more than what you're intimately familiar with. Um particularly, you know, a good example of that is Nebraska. I mean, that wasn't a destination on anyone's golf map, really, for any reason, until Bill Coor and Ben Crenshaw realized sand hills. And then that was that that's just the OG on so many levels, isn't it? Um going far away to this really epic Narnia sort of place to play golf that no one even knew was there, and and it it gets really magical. And um, and there are a lot of places like that in Nebraska. But I think what we're discovering is there are a lot of places like that in a lot of states that aren't where you mentioned, Jonathan, that are just sort of regional in the southeast, where it's typically that's where people play golf. And what a gift that is, isn't it? I mean, you know, Dismal River, for example, and also in Nebraska. I mean, that that landscape there is it blows your mind. If there was no golf there, it would still blow your mind. Uh, but then you you sprinkle in some interesting golf holes in that landscape, and now you really have something. And I think there are every state has its own sort of recipe of of geomorphology that lends itself to a really interesting golf course. And, you know, the the way the game has grown, there's been more of an appetite, there's been more of a market to maybe try and find some of those places and and see what can be done from a golf standpoint there. I mean, it the the places that are far off that really appeal are great because of that, but that's also an inherent challenge in trying to get golf realized there. Um, you know, irrigation and electricity and all the infrastructure you need for golf. Um, if it doesn't exist already, you know, chasing it out to some of these remote locations can be a challenge. Um, but lucky for all of us, you know, the clever folks are finding a way to get that done so these places can be new places to play the game. And and uh I mean it's if I zoom out for a hot second, I think all of this just started. I'm not the first person to say this during COVID. There was this everybody who loved golf already loved it, um, like ourselves. But people that never played it tried it, people that used to play it maybe came back to it and then they got added in and they haven't gone anywhere. Now, you know, I mean that that population of people who love the game is is really growing, and it's it's fascinating to think that was a uh residual of a global health crisis. I mean, we just live in such interesting times.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and we are uh that is one really, really good thing that did come from COVID, right? Like uh you know a lot of a lot of bad, but uh for a golf a golf sicko like uh the three of us, we uh we're all we're beneficiaries of that. And I think Jonathan, in maybe 130 something episodes that we've done, that might be the force first time we've heard geomorphology or I think so.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that wasn't on my bingo card today.

SPEAKER_01

No, no, we have not had that one before. Uh it it it it's interesting. The the little books they have in uh all the rooms at Sand Valley are about the Sand County and the history of the value of sand and how it affects the economy and what they can grow there and all the all the different things. Sand is good. Sand is good.

SPEAKER_03

Sand is good. And you know, being I'm in Columbia, South Carolina, and so we are seeing that as well. We've have courses uh like I I know you're familiar with like Old Barnwell and the Tree Farm and then Brooms Edge on the other side of Columbia. So uh sand is good. Um sand is good, yes, very nice.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Well, yeah, like Jonathan said, maybe where you've gotten some of the inspiration for some of the stuff, like who are some of the other uh architects, like maybe the historical ones that you kind of draw some inspiration from.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think you know the my sort of stock answer for that are the ones that that were really able to find interesting stuff um without all of the uh mechanical and technological advantages that we have now to make golf holes from T to green. Um obviously Alistair McKenzie, because my mentor, one of um uh the greatest mentors of people in the game of golf, Tom Doak, that was his hero, and he paid really close attention to McKenzie, and so it it stands to reason that that I would too, and so does everyone else that sort of falls under Tom's um uh pedigree tree, if you will. And and so so definitely that. But I'm also enamored with architects like Seth Rayner and Charles Blair MacDonald, who the what was accomplished at the LEDO or National Golf Links or anything that Rayner has been involved with, just the really, really big brush strokes that that they painted with you know the resources that were limited. Um, but they were so committed to the type of architecture that they were trying to realize, they didn't, they didn't go 80 or 90 percent, which which boggles my mind. You know, they could have said, well, that's a really big, useful right-to-left landform, but we need 10% more. It's not it's not quite there yet, you know. Um, and you know, that attention to detail and their commitment to do that is why they're precedent architects now to pay attention to, whether you like that really deliberate style or you really like the stuff that looks like it's sprinkled in um in a light rain onto a property like it's always been there. It really doesn't matter which is which. I mean, it comes to mind just Sedge Valley and Lido. Um, fresh in my mind just because I was just there. But wow, talk about two golf courses that couldn't be any more different. I mean, the only thing they really have in common are there's 18 holes. After that, they are not the same animal at all. Um, but it's just another one of those things that makes the game great. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Well, I was gonna ask uh if you did get a chance, and it sounds like you did, uh, to play Leto. Uh I did while I was there. Uh and I I'm curious what uh had you played it before, and maybe what your thoughts were.

SPEAKER_01

I'm really grateful to have had the opportunity to play it before. Um, when Tom hosted the Renaissance Cup there, um, and we celebrated Tom and Brian Schneider's work uh among Peter Flory and Brian Zager and all the other people that helped get that concept accurately depicted and then realized. Um so it, you know, the first time you play it, it's just so big. It's so bold. I was there during construction with uh Brian Schneider on my way through town and uh um heading somewhere else, and it was early in the project, it was like being on Mars. There's there's just there was no vegetation, it was sand as far as the eye could see. I mean, it was really hard to tell what you're even looking at out there. So, you know, what's been realized in all the little nuanced contours are they they just bend your mind. Um, but the the the advantage I had was I had seen it before, so it looks different the second time around. Um kind of like St. Andrew's, you know, the first time you go around there, there's a fair amount of blind shots, and the caddy says hit five iron at the steeple, so you do, but you don't know what's lurking just right or just left because he doesn't tell you. So it's not in your head. You're just trying to hit the ball at the target. Then the second time around, you know what's over that contour and you you know what's in store for you if you go a little too far this way or that way, and it's amazing how one round can change your complexion, and that's what it was like for me. Uh, you know, the guys were like, Well, you've seen this place before, so you should know how to play it. And I and we talked a little bit about how the first time around you you don't know what to expect, and then as soon as you know what's lurking, um it it's just it's a categorically different golf experience. But you also know where to hit it for fun, too. You know, landing it in the in the the punch bowl on 12 or you know, where to hit it on the Rodan or whatever. It doesn't really matter. You you know what the shot is, you may not pull it off, but at least you've you know you've got some idea of what the blueprint is for success. So um, but I love golf courses like that that just they just evolve. They they they they're like chameleons, they just change every time we go around. And and any golf course that does that, doesn't matter what the architecture is, that's good.

SPEAKER_03

That is the uh the good and the bad of going to play a new place. So it's my first time at Sand Valley, first time playing Leto and all the other courses. And I I want to have an experience to be able to play them again. Like I want to play them for the second time because of exactly what you said, to know and appreciate more of what's around the corner, or like the caddy would say, hit it to that rock, and you're like, okay, I don't know why you said that, but you do it. And I would love a second a second round at each of those places, especially the Leto. Um yeah, but yeah, it's such a fun, fun track and um and one that I I hope to get to do again here soon.

SPEAKER_01

I I do too. There's just there's nothing like going around the second time, that's for sure. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Do you think about those ideas when you're designing courses as well?

SPEAKER_01

I I think so. You know, hopefully when T to green, there's a reason to be off the T on the right side of the fairway or left side of the fairway. Um, not just aiming down the middle. Uh, you know, I think that's one of the things about wit that just makes it so critical is if you're gonna have strategy, it's got you know, you have to have room to enough room to play away from the middle of whatever's defined as a fairway in order to get it an advantage that's measurable enough to actually try it. And you know, thin, long, thin golf courses are challenging. There's no doubt about that. But um it it is it's really important. And I think that's where the second time around, Robbie, to your point, is is now you know um why you want to be here and why you don't want to be there, and and you probably know the risks of getting to point A as opposed to playing away from that trouble, and then the ensuing shot hopefully has some measure of of challenge that you're faced with because you took the safe way around off the T. But that's that's what good golf is, just letting the player make all of those choices. Um and we we really try hard uh for that because as long as everything's gray, it stays, it tends to stay interesting.

SPEAKER_02

I think that's a large assumption that me as a golfer gets to make those kinds of choices. Uh typically the ball just goes wherever it goes. There's not a I'm not usually involved in that process.

SPEAKER_01

We all have our our highs and lows, that's for sure. Um, but you know. I I think the uh the discovery of that, part of that is where you, you know, when you have those days like we all do where your misses are right and left and you're standing over it and you're just not sure. Um, you know, if at least if if the target you're given is wide, hopefully you can take that consternation and and ratchet it down one or two and hit a good one so that you're in a better position to hit a good one the next time you're standing on a T instead of not so. Um that psychology is really important and it's it's categorically important in enjoyment. Gotta have some room to make room for error. I think that's one of the things I've learned most of many things from Tom Doak is you know, there's the A, B, C strategy of the whole, but where golf's really interesting is when you miss now, now what? And because that's where we all are, the buy-in share of the time. And Tom's always thinking about not basic strategy so much, at least as I've I've paid attention over the years, but the the the ensuing strategy from your success or failure on your previous shot. And I think that's where his golf course is, and I like to think that our work associated with him really shines is in that realm.

SPEAKER_02

I just thought about this because yesterday I was gonna go out and play by myself and ended up picking up with uh two new two new folks I never played with. John, if you're listening to this, shout out. Uh and then also Bob. But Bob was 90 and playing from the most forward possible options, right? Because he's 90 years old and still somehow out there playing golf.

SPEAKER_00

It's for him.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I know 100%. Like if I could double my age and still be playing golf as good as John Bob, I'd be fantastic. If I could play as good as golf as Bob does now, I'd be fantastic. But that's a separate conversation. Um, whenever you're doing the design and you're thinking through like what are the options, are you also thinking, because I don't know how much control once you hand the golf course over to the operator, how much control you have over the T-boxes and things like that. But is there like a layers of envisioning golf in places and spaces? Or is it like, well, we hope everyone ends up in this spot from wherever they start?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's a great question. Um the first thing that that popped into my mind when you're asking that question, Jonathan, is you know, the the truth is you are handing the keys over to whoever the developer happens to be, or in some cases a municipality, um, a single owner, and then right behind them is you know, whatever their vision for how it ought it ought to be presented. What's the playing surface gonna be like? Is it gonna be green or firm or somewhere in between? And and so, you know, once you step away, you really do lose control of that. So to your point about um, you know, how do you sort of bake in some of that, I guess you'd call it risk, just because you don't know what you don't know about how it's gonna be taken care of. Um, you know, I I think the thing that that's important is to realize that you can't really design for a distance. Um, and distant everyone's hitting it further now, but there's still all of us who top it off the T. Um, and though that's never gonna go away. Um, so you know, as long as you build holes that are just natural, you build a bunker where it really ought to be a bunker. You don't build a bunker where there's nothing there, but it's at some sort of distance you're trying to affect from a certain player on a certain T on a certain day in a certain competition, you can get lost and never really succeed at trying to check all those boxes. So if you're if you just sort of understand that you're never gonna get it all right for everybody all the time and just build stuff that's natural, it's likely varied enough so that it will affect the right people that do hit it really well often enough, and it won't affect the people who don't hit it very well very often, not too much. And and and you know, any site with any kind of topographical interest, if you do a good job of routing it, will will kind of do that for you in a lot of ways. And so you don't get bogged down with worrying about that because you know, if you if you do a good job building a golf course, a lot of people are gonna play it, hopefully, and hopefully it'd be around for a really long time. So, you know, who knows what the average driving distance is gonna be five years from now. There might be so many more people playing that it's a hundred yards less because more people are playing that aren't as accomplished. So, you know, that bunker you were trying to get at the right target might not be in play for anybody by that time. So it's it, you know, it's uh it's kind of an uh approach where you just sort of build what what makes sense and then let the chips fall.

SPEAKER_02

That makes me feel a little bit better because I always felt like all the sand in the middle of the fairway was just targeting me somehow. And apparently it's not intentional, it's just that I'm still not that good at golf.

SPEAKER_01

There is a lot to that. I think that's one of the things I enjoy about getting out and watching people play, is it's just a reminder that our golf games are as unique as we are as people. And uh, you know, to try and cater to one user group too much is a you know, that can lead you down a path that you ideally don't want to go.

SPEAKER_03

Well, you mentioned Tom kind of thinking about maybe the misses off the T as it as it uh relates to their approach shots, maybe. Um and that for me that's kind of the and it's funny I say this because that's probably the worst part of my game, my approach game. But that's probably the favorite shot, right? When you when you have a club in your hand that you will attack the green or try to land it on the green, um how do you design that, like you said, for people to recover maybe after a bad drive or uh take advantage of a good one?

SPEAKER_01

I uh you know, a lot of that probably Robbie goes back to studying stuff in the UK um where the wind is such a factor. Uh you you really have to be cognizant of that, that it can be blowing really hard in your face or behind you or whatever. So there's a lot less trouble per se in the front of a green on a second shot or an approach shot for that reason. You know, that the simple idea is there's a bunker on the right because off the T there was a bunker on the left, you know, and you just sort of march down tacking back and forth. But um, you know, there are so many ways to challenge shots without an obvious hazard like a bunker or or or a depression or anything like that. You can you can challenge it just by having the green tilt away from you or one side to the other can offer a real advantage in an approach shot to where it isn't even so obvious to the eye. Um, but as soon as you hit a shot that gets away from you and realize I would have been better off either leaving it short or I would have been better off going at it from a different angle had I gotten to that point initially. I think, you know, their their contour and short glass are just the most interesting, enigmatic, and quite honestly playable ways for the largest number of people to be challenged. But, you know, it's it's not obvious, you know, and I think bunkering over time, because we've gotten we've had the opportunity to really stylize bunkers and and do things visually with them, and people are paying attention to architecture now, so that bunkering is a that can be the inherent identity of an entire golf course, is what the bunkers look like. And that's fine, but I think we just need to try and remember to leave room for the completely, you know, not so much the token bunkerless hole, but shots that are affected by contour, not so much by visual hazards.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I love that. And and Jonathan and I had the experience, our first experience of playing uh overseas, played some links golf, played carn. We got to play the old course, we got to play in reverse, actually. Um yeah, you talk about learning uh learning a different style, really trying to use, like you said, the contours of the land and how you hit a shot you think is right down the middle of the fairway, and all of a sudden you see it kind of bounce one way or the other because that's just how the land is. And so that was uh that was a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Well, you you are at Renaissance, and you guys are well known for uh for the work you have done in the in the golf space for golf courses, things like that. Tell us and maybe the listeners out there who aren't familiar with uh with your brand, with your uh design firm, a little bit about it, and then maybe some of the uh historical courses, and we'll talk about maybe what's next or what you're currently working on, but kind of what you've done so far.

SPEAKER_01

Mm-hmm. Well, the our our group, my colleagues are Eric Iverson, Brian Schneider, and Brian Slonik. And um the four of us have been working with and for Tom for decades. Um, and I I think one of the things that makes what we do interesting is it really is it's a fluid creative process. It's not so much come up with an idea and build the idea as it is, you know, throw a rock in the pond and see what the waves look like. And if you like the waves, then then you're good. Or if you don't, throw in another rock in a different spot. And and it's really it becomes a um a process of collaborative editing. And I think that's why we are able, you know, largely under the projects where Tom's the architect of record and and we're helping him build um to where any one of us are the architect of record, and we're we're building for that too, is this comfort that we've developed over time to really lean into asking what someone thinks and and not feeling protective of your original idea. Um, it's it's really hard when you think you've built something cool or you've found something cool to let go of it. Um, but I I think that's where you know when we have support from each other on projects where you're neck deep in it all day, looking at it all day, thinking about it all day, looking at it from all angles, and they come in and and are there to to be supportive and open dialogue. And well, have you thought about this? Or what if you did that instead of that? Or shouldn't the green be over there and not here? And you know, I it's it's really hard not to get protective of your work when you pour yourself into it. It's really hard not to do that. But I think, you know, over the years we've learned from the top down that if you're listening to um thoughts from people whose opinion you value highly, you can just drop that shroud of protective idea um uh security and listen. And you know, what we've found, I think, over time is that everything has just gotten so much better because of that. And as long as you're comfortable with something being as good as you feel like you can make it, the point of origin on the ideas doesn't matter as much as what the end thing presents. And I think that's you know, this industry is um there are there are egos in any industry where a design is being, you know, um tested and people's opinions matter a lot and things like that, you know, you're you gotta have some kind of an ego to hold yourself up. Um, but on the same token, if you're okay stepping away from it enough so that you find that balance, I think, you know, to your to your term about the brand, I I think that's kind of our our brand. And if if you really lean into that, you end up with um stuff that looks pretty natural. Um, because we do try and let what's already there dictate things. Can't do it all the time, but um, we try really hard to do that and cover our tracks so that after the place is open, hopefully it looks like it's been there a while. Um, and I think there's been a lot more attention given to that level of detail, which which is fantastic, which hopefully leads back to doing less big stuff and more quiet, thoughtful stuff, which makes things you they can be built faster and for less money. And you know, it's funny how you pick a spot on that wheel and it starts spinning it, and uh everything's better at the end. Um, so I think that I do think that's our brand. Um and I, you know, I I hope that's the vibe that that we project in in the stuff that that we're doing. I I also think people that are in a position to do a golf project, whether it's a developer or a group of people or um a municipality, are also getting more savvy in finding good golf property. So they're looking a little harder, some they're a little more patient, maybe even looking a little longer to make sure they've got something good to start with. Because if you're climbing that ladder and you're three rungs up to something good already, just be by virtue of the fact that the ground can be good golf, um, there's value in that. And I think part of that too is just the wide range of attention that is being paid to architecture now. And all the resources we have as people who are interested in design can find all the books, the turn of the century books, and uh they can dig deep on the internet and and really dive into it as deep as as they want to go. And the deeper they go, typically it's the older stuff that's better. And if you pay attention to that, um, it serves you well, whether you're an architect or a golfer.

SPEAKER_02

That's interesting because I was just about to ask, you mentioned collaboration, and my first thought was how often do you feel like you're collaborating with the land itself? Um, because uh we were talking about the the place we were playing yesterday, it's just a basic chorus that's out Fort Gordon, but there seem to be these signature holes. So I would assume at some point on 18 holes, there just has to be another one to get you to the next one. But how often do you are you trying to move the green from here to here so that it is a more natural track as opposed to I'm a s you're not doing a lot of neighborhood golf courses right now. So, you know, that's a whole different design work. But how often are you really honest with the group with that the the movement that you have within the group itself being able to allow the land to speak for it?

SPEAKER_01

That's a great question. I think um the first thing that comes to mind is when you were asking the question, Jonathan, is is what I guess what we'd call like a connector hole. If you have a routing of a bunch of holes that are really natural and you like them and you think they'll be a good member of the 18-hole team, um, but you can't get from the third green to the the fourth T or the fifth T without doing something in between, and the land doesn't lend itself at all. So you drop a bomb on that one hole and just go full tilt boogie to try and get that to speak the same language as the other really natural holes. And sometimes minimalism, you know, that that all the way back to Tom sort of you know getting credit for and sort of having that philosophy is dropping a bomb on a piece of ground so that all the other natural holes can be realized. Because without that one connector hole, especially if it's a long hole, like a long four or a par five, um, where you really have to work at it to make it fit, that work is as important as the other because the other holes can't be realized unless that hole exists to tie it all together. So, you know, it it's to to your to your um angle about collaborating, I think that is a collaboration of the ground saying, here's all my natural holes, but you guys got to figure out which one some how to build something to get all our natural holes kind of built. And that's where that's where the collaborative part of the people I work with, the guys who I respect, um is really because it, you know, there's so many different ways to be clever, and the right answer isn't isn't the right answer, it's your answer. So um uh, but uh it you know that word collaborative is just it really gets my dander up because I just everywhere I look now, architecture and buildings, um, music, fashion, everything is just kind of it's all getting mushed together and all these new things are coming out of that. And and I think that's the way golf architecture used to be in in the very early days, like Pine Valley, for example. There are half a dozen architects that have some sort of credit given to them for them contributing. It isn't just one or another. And I think the more comfortable we are doing that, the more interesting it gets, the more fun it is, and and at the end of the day, hopefully the the better the golf is too. And um, you know, I just I love that. It we always say golf projects are about the money, the land, and the people, but it's really about the people, the people and the people. And that collaborative effort, and that's something that that I learned from Tom. Um, because if you have the good people, the good people, the good people, you can figure out the money and you can sort out how to take full advantage of the land. Um, but um, you know, as interesting as the world is right now, uh uh it it the collaborative nature of what's going on all around us is is very exciting, especially if you're a you feel like you're a creative person at all.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, we were uh we were just talking with Danny Christensen, who is a creative mind in branding and uh film and things like that. And he had this quote from about collaboration that I just love and it just resonates with me. It's a if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. And it just it echoes everything you're talking about, whether collaborating with uh the land itself, but especially with people. And we can all agree, right? You can go play golf by yourself, but wouldn't you rather go play with people, like surround yourself with uh with others?

SPEAKER_01

So yeah, there are merits to both, that's for sure. Um, there's a book that comes to mind, The Creative Act by Rick Rubin. Um it's all about being creative, and and uh Rick just he was a not a musician, but he was an in influencer of musicians and music and worked with Johnny Cash and Tom Petty and the Red Hot Chili Peppers and helped them get out of their own way and and and be creative. And it was that interaction that really I mean, all those groups are talented, but instead of going fast, they went with people and far. Um, and it's uh that kind of stuff just really gets my attention.

SPEAKER_03

I love it. Well, talk about some of your favorite projects that you have completed.

SPEAKER_01

Um I I I have for different reasons. Uh Bally Neal in Colorado comes to mind simply because it's I spent a lot of my life there. Um, the site was just such a departure from what typically people think of Colorado. I was lucky to be on site and contribute uh during the the process there. And and uh wow, that place just it just I'm just really proud of how it turned out, and and I think people really enjoy it and they want to get back there quickly and play. Bally Neil's at the top. But I also think um Common Ground in Denver, Colorado, for the State Golf Association of Colorado was uh initially a um a military property golf course. Um had 18 holes and 18 greens, and and that was about it. And and uh we were able to reimagine it in its entirety. Um, and we had a lot of fun doing that. The architecture there we ended up calling Chicago style. So it was sort of McDonald Raynor Charles Banks-ish. Um, and it was big and broad property, so we got to do some deliberate things to help sort of um, you know, demonstrate what the architecture was going to be and how to how to get you thinking your way around the golf course. But beyond that, it's the the mission statement of the state golf association that, you know, to the name all the way through common ground. It's this is a game for the people. All their programs there are um Teaching people to play, the short course for the kids. They've got an amazing caddy program through the Evan Scholars program there, the George Solich Academy. And, you know, it's their mission statement that drives that boat. And it has been fascinating to watch them meet those goals and then raise the bar for themselves continuously with access and getting clubs in people's hands. And um, and I was involved with that a lot at the beginning, and and I'm very proud of that because everyone on our roster, everyone, is a product of municipal public golf. That's where we all got our start. Um, we've been very lucky to see um the the you know the high-level private um facilities and courses and clubs around the world that exist, and there's uh I'm not knocking that at all, but there's just something about that foundational blue-collar golf experience that just really it motivates me. And I'm grateful for it because that's who I am, really.

SPEAKER_03

That's great. Yeah, Jonathan and I, our uh our golf relationship, we were we worked together, but uh we we started playing uh together at least on a Muni uh here in Columbia, South Carolina. So yeah, love it. Still one of my favorite courses. Yeah, great, great layout. It it could use some uh some some a little bit of uh love uh and maybe some water. Uh well, what do you guys have in the works? Like what uh what can we be looking out for?

SPEAKER_01

We have um, I'm trying to think here that we're wrapping up. Um we're working on a project in Mexico for Tom. Um to Brava. We're about nine, 18 holes, 17 holes in, wanted to go there. Um we're also uh very lucky to be working with Dream Golf and the the Kaiser family, young Mike Kaiser at Wild Spring Dunes in in eastern uh in eastern Texas. Um just finished up a project also in Texas Childress Hall. Um, but we we've got a lot of irons in the fire right now, and there's always that um uh you hope for a return on investment and you don't know how things are going to go. But uh the the inquiries from different places are um are real and um a new project in in Scotland that uh um Brian Schneider has secured called the Mains of Cairnbulge outside of Fraserborough, east of uh Inverness. Um so it I mean we're we're just really lucky to be entertaining the the what's the real developmental momentum right now and and really excited. Um a second golf course at uh Old Barnwell called the Gilroy. On the heels of the kids' course, which is one of my favorite places on the planet, is the kids course at Old Barnwell. Um and it's it it's an exciting time and the the world is interesting right now, and hopefully the momentum will continue and and uh the opportunities keep coming. But I I can tell you from everyone in our in our camp, we're really grateful to be doing the things we are with the people that we are on the properties that we are. I mean, we're we're just we're really, really lucky, really lucky.

SPEAKER_02

Are there projects that you've have some I don't know if intimidation is the right word? Is there intrepidation whenever you think about I'm gonna go build a new course in Scotland or I'm going to add to the dream family of golf courses? Like, because there are expectations that every golfer's coming in with that it's your responsibility, at least part of your responsibility, to meet.

SPEAKER_01

Indeed, Jonathan, uh uh very well put that that expectation um is high. We look at it as a challenge, but it's real. You know, you know, and and so I think the one of the things that makes it challenging is trying not to do too much of what you've already had success with. You know, you have a a great debut album, and and you know, your tendency is to stay in that that lane and do something with your sophomore album that's maybe not too much of a departure because the first one was so successful, but yet you don't want to just keep doing the same thing over and over, um, which is where the collaborative effort from everybody in the camp is really important. So you you feel like you're staying a step ahead and at least you're being thoughtful and thinking that way. But there's absolutely an expectation. Um, you know, over the years we've had clients say, um, we'll pick you as long as you promise this is going to be a top hundred in the United States, or the top 50 and or top five in the state, or top 50 in the world, or whatever. And you can imagine the slippery slope that that is. Right. Um, you know, to take that and say, no problem, we get we got that, we got that covered. Um, and we're fortunate enough to be old enough and have done enough that we can just say, you know, we're not going to make you that promise. We're just going to do the very best work that we can. And we feel like you'll be happy with the product at the end. And, you know, when you've been doing it a while, you can say that. You can't say that if you're new. I mean, it's if you're trying to get your first job, your first job is way harder than the next five. Um, and then after the first job, the second job often is even harder for that same reason if you've had success. So um, yeah, it the expectations are there, but we try really hard to shoulder that as a team. And if you do that, you can you're more likely to be successful, but the expectation is a challenge too. Um, I think one advantage we have right now is that people are thinking about golf in different ways. You know, what is a golf experience? Is it less than 18 holes? Is it, you know, there's no recipe anymore of par threes, fours, and fives, and all of that kind of stuff. So that gives you a little room to wiggle in the phone booth. Um, when we try and take advantage of that. But uh we expectations are real, and if you if you have them, you're probably just fortunate to be in a position that people are expecting a lot from you.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I love the uh the thought of how golf is evolving to, like you said, maybe it doesn't have to be 18 holes. I mean, that's what that's what took me to San Valley was uh the Media Day event to go see uh the Commons, you know, Jimmy Craig and uh and what they are doing there. Um that place is gonna be awesome. And of course, I got to experience the other great properties there, but uh I just love how um yeah, we want to stay traditional with golf and just make make it fun, but we don't have to stick with 18. We don't, you know, and so it's uh I appreciate the challenge that you guys are under uh to continue making great things. And like you said, um you're not gonna promise anything, you're just gonna keep doing what you do, and what y'all do is really, really good. So uh I think there's got to be confidence from that from those that uh work with y'all. So cheers, Bobby.

SPEAKER_01

That's kind of you. That's kind of you.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Well, let's uh, and I feel like Jonathan and I, we could talk to you forever about this stuff. Um, this is yeah, but let's talk a little bit. We'll start to wrap up. We we ask a question to all of our guests. We want to hear the story of your most memorable golf shot.

SPEAKER_01

My most memorable golf shot. Wow.

SPEAKER_03

Um and maybe it's somewhere like in in dirt or in trees where a course is about to happen. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01

Right. You know, I I uh there's there's many of them because when you hit it as poorly as I do, you have infinite opportunity to hit something amazing as a recovery. Um, but I one of the shots that comes to mind for me um was in high school, I was playing golf, just my dad and I at an executive course, Spring Hill Golf Links in Aurora, Colorado. That's where we all practiced our high school and everything, and where I met my greatest friends, my golf coach, greatest friend. Um, but we were it was just my dad and I going around. And you know, I was a kid, I was trying to beat my dad, and I wanted to beat him the way I wanted to beat him. And he net he was he always saw through that and he would challenge me with things to try stuff I'd never tried. And we were on the 14th hole at um Spring Hill par three. It was about 220, a really long par three. And I I refused at that age to hit my driver on a par three. I was just, I'm just not gonna do it. I I it's not what you do. I'm strong enough, all those things. And and uh and my my dad hit his driver, knocked it right on the green, and and then I followed up um hitting mine and just learned that it just didn't really matter. And when the ball came off the club, I would never have gotten it there with anything less. It was it just wasn't gonna happen. So that's a memorable shot for me, not so much of how the ball ended up, but about how thinking about what golf really is and and and how to do it, how to golf your ball. Um, I would say that's probably one of my more memorable and and just spending time with my dad makes them all memorable. Yeah. Okay, memory that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Well, another thing we like to do with our guests is what we call a quick nine. So just a few rapid back and forth here. And I can't imagine how you pick one out. But what is the favorite course that you've played?

SPEAKER_01

Favorite course that I've played probably North Berwick in Scotland, east of Edinburgh was the the our home course almost when we were building the Renaissance Club at Archerfield. And that place is special. It so many holes that you'll never see anywhere else. And we were playing in the summer when it was light till 11 o'clock. So, and it's always different, and so perky and wonderful and odd and fun, just fun, so much fun. Um, short and manageable, all the things. It's it's all the things, yeah. Definitely North Barrett.

SPEAKER_03

That's a good one. Nice. We we did not play that one while we were there. Uh, this next question, I man, I kind of find it interesting to ask because you have designed so many people's bucket list courses. So I gotta ask though, what is the top of your bucket list?

SPEAKER_01

For a a project that hasn't been done yet?

SPEAKER_03

No, to go play. To go play. Oh, to go play. Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01

So that is a good one.

SPEAKER_03

Um and you could pick one of your own, but I imagine you've already played them.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you know, that's that's a that's a really good question.

SPEAKER_00

Um I'm trying to think. So many of them in the UK.

SPEAKER_01

Uh I've never played La Hinch. Never played La Hinch. I I I would love to see that because that's in influenced stuff that I grew up playing in Colorado that Tom did when he was young. The ninth hole there is is modeled after the Dell at La Hinch. So I think that would that's definitely that's up there. And I'll and anything else I can get my hands on while I'm there.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

What is the best course that no one knows about?

SPEAKER_01

Hmm. I can tell you from experience here in northern Michigan that it could be Champion Hill or Pinecroft here in northern Michigan simply because it's in the neighborhood of of Crystal Downs and Belvedere and so many great golf courses. And and they're great because they are the best example of great golf um without spending a lot of money. And they're very natural, they're very northern Michigan. They spend the money on all the things that are important and not on any of the things that are not. And I think that model could serve so many clubs going forward. Uh, it's just deciding how to use your resources. Um, and I can promise you that anybody listening to this has probably never heard of either one of those places. But if they get to northern Michigan anytime, um check them out.

SPEAKER_03

Jonathan, we need a trip to northern Michigan. Sounds exciting. It's been on that area, it's been on my like bucket list area of golf for a while. So yeah. Uh, who would be in your dream foresome?

SPEAKER_01

My dream foresome. Uh people that are still with us, no limit on your dreams. On my dream. Um, I'd love to go around in a group with old Tom Morris. Um pretty standard, I suppose. Tiger Woods, just to, you know, when he was playing in his prime and his command of of the golf ball and how he could hit it and and what he was doing. Um boy, the list of my close friends is is long, and I'm lucky it could be any of them, but I'd probably like to play golf with my dad one more time. Yeah, he's he's really the reason I'm not just the reason I'm here, but the reason I'm here.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. All right. Uh what is your walk-up song to the first T?

SPEAKER_00

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01

Great question. Anything by John Cash. Anything by Johnny Cash, it kind of gets you, you know, juiced and jazzed up a little bit, but it also kind of relaxes you a little bit as well. Um, if you're juiced and relaxed and you're walking to the first T, you're probably in a good mind, a good headspace.

SPEAKER_03

Sometimes when I'm walking off 18 hurt by Johnny Cash is is running through my head.

SPEAKER_01

Isn't that great? One artist can cover everything. He can cover everything. I just think certainly do that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

He's got a good metronome to most of his stuff, too. So like Indeed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, indeed.

SPEAKER_01

Yep.

SPEAKER_02

Uh, what's the favorite club in the bag right now?

SPEAKER_01

Uh for me, I just my my closest high school and college friends finally graduate helped me graduate to technology across the board with a driver and a and a hybrid, and I'm I'm I'm playing uh ping new, pretty new player performance, player-enhanced ping irons right now. But my mother and uh father-in-law, David and Nancy, for my birthday scored me, I've been rolling the ball with an 88-02 and a ping answer for years, and I just go back and forth. But I've finally got a uh a tailor-made uh spider in my bag, and I played it all the rounds at Sand Valley, and technology is what isn't just for good for drivers and wedges and utility clubs. Uh it it's amazing. My dad always used to say, um, son, it's not the uh arrow, it's the Indian. But this is a pretty fine arrow that I'm talking with right now. I'm and it it's fun when technology can help you enjoy the game more, and so that's been a gift for me. Yeah, yeah, I love it. I got it from my former golf coach in high school, was is a tailor-made rep, and he can he helped me get make that connection. And uh it makes golf fun, and anything you can do to make golf a little more fun is is good.

SPEAKER_02

True story. All right, what is your favorite snack on the course? And I'm gonna ask it in two ways. Uh-huh. What would you eat in America and what would you eat overseas? Because those are drastically different snacks.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, wow, that's true. Um in the it we're talking about food, not beverages.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, food.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Um, you know, in the States, I'm I'm all about peanuts. Um they uh I just really enjoy those. And let's see, overseas. Oh my gosh. So many options there. Um first thing I think about overseas is fish and chips. Um, not really an on-course snack, though. Yeah, but we're not gonna.

SPEAKER_02

I feel like we should take Japanese golf to America. Like in Japan, you go there and you're supposed to spend like seven hours because you've got this pre-golf thing. At the turn, you're supposed to stop for an hour and a half and have a full meal and everything else. Then you get done, there's a massage. I'd love to have a meal in the middle of every round. If I can stop at at number nine, that'd be great.

SPEAKER_01

I've had that experience, Jonathan, and it is that. You know, I mean, just the privilege to play 18 holes in Japan is uh is a huge privilege, but it's it starts in the morning and it lasts all day. And all you want to do is hit rewind after you're finished because it's uh it's a very different, a very, very different experience. Um couldn't agree more. A full meal in between nines. Right.

SPEAKER_03

Although you and I both uh on separate trips just went to San Valley, and their on-course food options are ridiculous. The dollar dollar tacos at Craigsport. I mean, every course has this unique thing, but it was and I love the price.

SPEAKER_01

The Italian beef, um, I mean, and it is the price. You're you're you you're laying out one or two or three dollars. Um, it just makes it taste even that much better. It really does. Yeah, that's the experience there too. So much of that place they've really sorted out. And um, it's if if you have that option of getting to experience the game there, it's it's it's really great.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I don't I don't know if you're the guy to talk to about this, but this question all started because I had tacos and cabo every three holes. Oh wow. They built taco stands on this golf course. So you came through the first three when you went to number four, you got free tacos on the way, free tacos and a drink. And they routed it, so you came back around to like number seven or eight, stained taco stand, get them again. And on back nine, they did it as well. So I had, I don't know, I had like 12 tacos throughout. I don't remember what I scored because it wasn't that good anyway. But I remember the tacos. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Well, and that's that's the perfect distraction. If you're not hungry or thirsty, right, um, they're taking care of you and uh increases the enjoyment, no question about it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Well, we we were talking about your hat. You got this Edge Valley logo on it. Uh, but we uh we asked the question, and I I love this, but what is your favorite golf course logo?

SPEAKER_01

Oh boy, that's a good I love a logo that's that's really understated, and I typically lean towards anything that isn't that doesn't have a golf club or a golf ball or a T uh or a grip or a flag or a green or any of those kinds of things. Um boy my it it's hard to really say what my favorite is. I I remember Sand Hills, um just the branded S and H as being one of the first that really got comfortable just going that direction. And it's really understated and um but it's very recognizable too. Um so that would have to be definitely be one of my favorites. The the um wicket basket at Marion kind of for the I mean that's a flagstick, true, but it's not a a typical uh golf icon. I I love something that tells a little bit about the place, um, and the story of the place, the genus loci of why that place has the uniqueness that it does. Um love the logo at the Lido, too. Um, the siren. It's just it it makes you ask more questions about the history of the place and anything that inspires some more thought. Um yeah, I love I that's a great challenge is coming up with a logo that functions as a logo but also tells a story.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Uh you mentioned the Gilroy that uh Brian's working on. Um the armadillo, right? And it's because they keep finding all these armadillo all over the place.

SPEAKER_01

So perfect example.

SPEAKER_03

A little a little history that if you don't know the place, you don't know.

SPEAKER_01

Right. And it it compels you to maybe investigate. And I I'm I'm a fan of that, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

All right, last question here. Finish this sentence. The best part of golf is one-word answer?

SPEAKER_00

It's up to you. Uh for me it's the people.

SPEAKER_01

It's the people, it's everyone that has taught me something along the way, made me appreciate something I didn't before, made me look at something in a different way. Um yeah, it's all about the people, the people that have been golf oriented in my life. The list is really long and they're a big reason, every single one of them in some way, and in the in the story that is that's been my journey here. So yeah, it's the people. Hundred percent of people.

SPEAKER_03

Well, we agree. And the best part uh for us in doing this is meeting people like you. Uh and hopefully one day we can tee it up together, maybe on one of your courses.

SPEAKER_01

So I would would love it. Come to Northern Michigan and uh we'll get it done.

SPEAKER_03

Let's make it happen. Great. Well, Don, this has been uh a lot of fun. We really appreciate your time. Uh, it's been an honor to have you on uh on this show.

SPEAKER_01

Cheers. Thank you for having me. Uh really enjoyed the dialogue. When you feel like you could just keep going and keep going, you know you've had a good conversation.

SPEAKER_03

Agreed. Agreed. Well, for Don and Jonathan, this is Robbie, and you all have been listening to another episode of the Whole Story Podcast.

Head Shot

Jonathan Hill

Co-host
Head Shot

Robby Woodard

Co-host