The Hole Story - Golf Podcast

The Story of Gator National with Philip Turturro

• BestBall • Season 4 • Episode 42

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On this episode, we sit down with Philip Turturro, the creator of Gator National, a one-of-a-kind four-hole golf course he built in his own backyard outside of San Antonio, Texas. What started as an ambitious idea has grown into one of golf's most creative passion projects, capturing the imagination of golfers around the country.

Philip shares the story behind designing and constructing Gator National, the challenges of bringing the course to life, and why creating a place to gather with friends has always been more important than chasing perfection. Along the way, we dive into architecture, course design, social media, and the simple joy of building something that reflects your love for the game.

https://www.instagram.com/gatornational/

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*Music by AlexGrohl via Pixabay

SPEAKER_03

My golf journey up at that point had been going and playing courses that they played on TV because I thought, man, if I could go play, you know, Firestone or TPC Scottsdale, that's it. That's, I mean, that's where the pros play. And then I go play Fisher's Island, and it was like baptism.

SPEAKER_02

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of the Whole Story Podcast. Jonathan, we just had an incredible conversation that everybody is about to hear with Philip Taturo, who has built a golf course in his backyard. I I know I could see the gears turning because this is something you have talked about. I know you say I can hit 70, 80 yard wedge shots in a little section of your yard, but this this has to be goals, right? Like one, to do what he's done, but I I I gotta stop and say, Philip's awesome. Like uh like we've talked about before, every one of our guests, we feel like, man, these are great friends now, and we've only shared a screen with them. Uh, we have connected in person with a lot of our guests, but Philip is one that we will definitely be getting together with, uh, both in Augusta, Columbia, South Carolina, go out of Texas and see Gator National. But man, what did you think of that?

SPEAKER_00

I was looking or reminiscing back to when we first bought this property, and I think I'd written out like a, I think a nine-hole course, and then thinking through like multiple spots, but really just an inspiration from the sense of not only like obviously if you're a golf sicko and you're thinking, oh man, I'd love to have a golf course in my backyard, but also just more from the person as a whole. Like the point of it being to offer an opportunity and a place for his for his sons to play for people, which is that would be a that the having your own private personal golf course is something, but then also be like, hey, if you want to come to my backyard and just play golf, and I'm gonna go eat dinner with my family and whatever, and it's not it's just literally like send them a shoot him a text message and show up and then just sort of play golf, and then turning that into I'm gonna start designing putting greens and places to play golf for other people. And again, the dream when it comes to if you if you're involved in golf and you're thinking, Man, I'd love to do something like that. We say it all the time. In five years, it will be five years. Whether you do what you're dreaming about or you don't do what you're dreaming about. Um, and so uh for for lots of reasons, he he made that leap, right? He took that step and said, This is gonna be what's best for me and my family and my probably my person. So I I'm already like thinking through, man, my garage could fit a pro shop if people wanted to buy things, and what would I call this? I'm telling you, man, uh but I don't know how to move a piece of dirt or knock down or cut something down. So I don't know how it'll come to pass, but maybe uh the the plans could start getting a little bit more serious about putting on a golf course here. Well, we we know people that could probably help you with that project too.

SPEAKER_02

Probably, yeah. Uh you you said five years is five years, and another one of the things we like to say is golf is people, and Philip is somebody that you absolutely need to know. Just a genuine down-to-earth, loves his family, loves the Lord. Like he's man, he's I can't wait to hang out with him. Just looking forward to it. Yeah, so yeah, a lot of uh lot of fun. You guys are gonna love this conversation. Uh, as always, many thanks to our friends at Summit. Uh, great people there as well. I'm actually gonna be hanging out with our buddy Cole here for a few days uh at a special place. But um they have a lot of great stuff from Bee Raddy, Zero Restriction, Fairway and Green. I did bust out my Zero Restriction Rain Gear the other day at Old Barnwell, Jonathan. Came because it came in handy.

SPEAKER_00

Like at eight.

SPEAKER_02

Everybody said, man, I love I love that logo. And I said, I love that it's keeping me really dry right now. And so it was a lot of fun. They do incredible stuff. If you guys want some of that stuff, go to any of their websites and use Best Ball20, and you can save 20% on some awesome stuff of your own. But let's get to uh let's get to our chat with Philip Taturo and talking about Gator National and all the other good stuff he has going on. Y'all enjoy. Welcome, Mr. Philip Toturo, to the whole story podcast. Man, we are glad you have joined us today and excited to hear more about what you're doing there in Texas.

SPEAKER_03

Welcome. Thank you very much. Really excited to be on with you guys. I heard the last couple of podcasts, enjoyed the heck out of them, and they were familiar faces to me. So I was like, I got I need to meet these guys.

SPEAKER_00

It's nice to always have a listener, not a new listener, just one. We're excited about having our first one.

SPEAKER_03

I was talking to a buddy of mine earlier this morning, and he's a golfer, and uh, we were talking about I think we should do this series at my backyard where he gets back into golf. He used to be a PGA pro at a really great club here in San Antonio, and then he's got this awful disease in his early 20s. He's been battling it now for 20 years. He's had 12 surgeries, and you know, he's he's in a much better place mentally right now. He really wants to get back into the game. And so we had two hours yesterday in my backyard hitting every type of chip shot you can imagine playing this game at 21. And so this morning we were driving around running some errands, and and he goes, and I told him I said, I got this idea, we should do a a series in my backyard where we get you back into golf because he's he's getting back into it. And he goes, I don't know, man. You see these stats about all these podcasts and how many of them fail. And I go, No, no, no, no, no. This isn't a pass fail. This is just fun, and it's a great story. And I've got a backyard daggum golf course. Like who it's if one person, like you just said, if one person watches it, Jonathan, it'll be cool.

SPEAKER_00

That's right.

SPEAKER_02

Well, that's what from the very beginning, Jonathan and I said we were gonna do this as long as we're having fun and we're what 160, 70 episodes into this thing and having a blast, producing other podcasts, uh, doing some a lot of fun stuff, and it allows us to meet people like you. You mentioned you just heard a couple of them with Brian Ross and I think Troy Miller, a couple golf architects, and uh you've done some some work with with them and just communicated with them and others like Colton Craig and and their team. And so we're man, it's uh it's really cool. We talk about all the time. Like we need to put up one of those like maps on the wall, like how we got connected to different people. Um, and golf is just the best in that way. So it is uh, Philip, it's an honor to uh to have you on today to uh hear what you are doing. But before we get into Gator National and that cool stuff, like we want your backstory. Like, when did golf become a thing for you?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, uh my dad played uh growing up in Florida. He was an Italian from Queens, New York, and they all retired in Florida. And so he played in a little bit of high school and then went to the University of Florida. That's the Gator connection. Uh, I think he played early on when he was like maybe a freshman or sophomore. Um, but then his life direction changed greatly. He ended up going to seminary after getting his degree from Florida, became a preacher. The whole reason why we live in Texas is because of this tiny little Christian school that my dad's a part of. Um, so I started playing, I think about the age of 12. There was this tiny driving range and par three nine-hole course a mile and a half from our house. And um, I'll never forget teeing up my dad's power built, you know, Persimmon drivers and his Wilson Blades for the first time and carrying his 170-pound bag around that par three, nine holes, thinking this is the greatest thing ever. And I played with my my best friend in the whole world, who I grew up with, you know, since I was three years old. It was the first time either one of us had ever played. And so we both kind of fell in love with it 12 years old. Um, but my dad had, you know, his passion for golf was backburner. He was a he was a servant, he was a giver, he was a teacher. Um, and so golf became very, very secondary to him. Um, so I grew up playing the military courses. He was a lieutenant colonel in the army and uh played the Muni courses. They were six bucks to play the munis. If you had a Putch Guard, it was three dollars to play all the military courses. And, you know, growing up in San Antonio, there's a lot of military courses. So um had a bunch to choose from. Um, and so, you know, my it's funny, I got a I got a great job when I was 16 at the Rolling Oaks driving range, and it was the best in the world because, you know, I went to this tiny Christian school, had great parents. I I'm used to speaking in public. I did that my entire life. And so they put me in the golf shop, they put a golf shirt on me, and I got to like ring up buckets and watch golf all day. And all the other kids my age were out picking the range. And so I thought, man, this is the best job ever. And it was. And I saved up my own money and I bought my very first set of golf clubs from Joe Caruso, legendary teaching pro here in San Antonio, and he sold me a Callaway Great Big Bertha driver, three wood, five wood, and ping ISI beryllium irons. And it was the first set of real clubs that I had. I was still playing my dad's Wilsons and Persinas. And growing up playing in these little, these golf tournaments, uh, you know, it was embarrassing, you know, because everybody had pingsings and they had great big berthas and they all had hoofer bags. And I mean, I was hoofing it in a staff bag with old clubs. And so I had I bought these clubs from Joe and I thought this is it. And they were stolen out of my garage a week after I bought them for $1,900, which was every dollar I had. And I quit golf until I was probably 21 years old. So there was about a five-year window where golf hurt.

SPEAKER_00

It didn't, it wasn't a positive thing for me. Well, you're about the same age we are. So whenever you're 16, $1,900 is also a car. Like that was a good used vehicle back in early mid-90s.

SPEAKER_03

It's funny you say that, Jonathan, because the next thing I did was I saved up enough money to bat to buy my dad's 1991 Honda Civic hatchback. And perfect. I gave my dad $4,000 American dollars in 1995 or 1996 to buy his hatchback cash. So yeah, and at that point it was it was my girlfriend and trying to get through high school golf. I had kind of given up and I when I had my club stolen. Was it the manual? It got into business. I started selling mobile homes when I was really young. I didn't go to college. I got right into mobile home sales, and I got my first promotion was in Victoria, Texas, which is just not down by the boater, right? Oh, yeah. It it's it's just not a great place, but it's a great place to sell mobile homes. And I I went and played this nine, this, this country club called Colony Creek, and I took my bride, my wife, and we played nine holes, and I hated all over the absolute planet, quit after nine. But that was the that was my bridge back into golf at like 21 years old. Moved back to San Antonio maybe a year later and you know, got reunited with my buddies that I'd kind of grown up with and got hooked, got, got really hooked. So started, you know, going on golf trips with my brother. My older brother's seven years older than me. He'd put together these great trips in the middle of the summer that you know, we'd go to Orlando and it was 127 degrees. We'd play Bahill and three other great courses for $400 because nobody in their right mind would do it, right? And then the next summer we'd go to Scottsdale and we'd play just 127 degrees and play all these incredible courses for this low budget because nobody else would go there. So that was kind of my early 20s, and um joined a club here in Bernie, Texas, Cordier Ranch, um, 16 years ago. So I've been playing at the same club now for 16 years, a wonderful place, super, super owners, great members, and um so it's home.

SPEAKER_00

Well, for those of you who are listening, we're not taking a turn into the used and new trade or uh mobile home podcast world. So at some point, you decided to make a turn or a leap into the golf world. So walk us through like when that happened, how it happened, and how you're, as we joked about before the show, you're no longer wearing a shirt and tie and don't know what day it is.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, uh man, we were humming. We were absolutely humming. Uh 2017 was the was the best year of my life. And I remember saying that uh in 2017. Just kids were great. I had my best year in business, you know, finally made, you know, number one. I'd beaten out all the other guys in my company. Things were great. And then um the Lord just sent us down a very difficult path in 2018. And um coming out of that in 2019, there was, you know, and it's still coming out of that in 2026. Um I decided to leave my career. I needed to be home, needed to spend more time with my kids. And um, so just kind of walked away from it all, sold my company shares, and had no job, no career, no plan. And uh my family and I took some road trips, some really great road trips together to kind of get out of here for a while. And uh I parlayed those with some amazing golf trips. I still don't know how it worked out, but on one of our big road trips up to the East Coast, I I played. Uh, we started at Beth Page and then we did two rounds at Fisher's, we did Friars Head, we did Sabonic, and that was the first time I'd ever been exposed to the templates, the golden age stuff. Again, my golf journey up at that point had been going and playing courses that they played on TV because I thought, man, if I could go play, you know, Firestone or TPC Scottsdale, that's it. That's I mean, that's where the pros play. And then I go play Fisher's Island and it was like baptism. Everything changed. Golf's not what I think it's supposed to be. Um, and I'd been through a little bit of that in 2013 because I'd gone to Scotland and did it did a really amazing trip, and then it kind of unlocked some things, but then I came back and was still playing the same kind of courses I'd always played. Because I didn't have Lynx golf over here, I just kind of folded back into you know what I always played, Texas Hill Country. You know, if you miss a fairway, you're in the cactus of the rocks. So went on some great road trips with the family, got to play some great golf courses. I had just gotten into the fried egg. Uh, my oldest best friend in the world had stumbled into golf architecture like 2015, 2016, started feeding me some stuff, and I just I locked into Andy Johnson, I locked into Seth Rayner, a C.B. McDonald, and I just started reading everything I could read and started to get some really great trips lined up and started to go play some of the really great places. I came home, I started clearing my back two acres with a pole saw, manual pole saw to get my mind off of all the things I was going through. And one day I pulled out my survey. I'm on four acres. My house is built on the front too, and I just drew four lines east, west, west, east, east-west, because that's kind of what I thought I had, like width-wise and everything. And then I hired some guys to help me continue clearing because I'd been doing it for two, three weeks by myself with a manual pole saw and was, you know, not going to get very far. And we kept clearing and kept clearing, and I got to this one spot all the way almost to the back of the property, the back four acres. There was these rocks piled up. I stood on top of them, I turned around, and you could see this infinity edge that we had cleared. You could see the Cordillera Ranch Clubhouse up on the hilltop, you know, probably only three miles away, but it kind of looks like 20 miles. And I went, that looks like the third hole at Fisher's Island. That looks like plateau because of the infinity edge. And as I'm doing that, this is wild, guys, but as I'm doing that, my eyes just kind of veer to the right. And I'm in the Texas Hill Country. There's this rock, crazy outcroppings everywhere. And in the perfect shape of a punch bowl, there's these jagged rocks that are just sticking up out of the ground. And I went, that looks like the 15th at Sleepy Hollow. So I I sprinted an acre and a half to my house, grabbed my survey, erased all the lines, and drew north-south, south, north. And I had the course. And on one of those road trips uh with the family that I parlayed into a golf trip, my wife was kind enough to allow us to take a detour to Old White, and we stayed at the Greenbrier, and I got to play Old White with my son, who's probably eight at the time, and on the way in, got her to stop at Sweeton's. They were closed. Uh, but the guy told me to put 20 bucks on the railing, and my son and I got Sweetens at sunset.

SPEAKER_00

Um, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_03

So I wanted a double green, and so I I knew I'd put a double green there. So anyway, I um amidst all the trauma in 2018-2019, God gave a huge blessing that Augusta National um accepted my request to volunteer. So 2019 was my first year volunteering at the Masters, and I that's where I met Colton. Uh Saturday, women's on what I'm I work whole 11, and he's just standing at the top of the hill looking at Amen Corner. He's got that first-time A-Men Corner look, and I'm like, this is the kind of guy. This is my first year volunteering, this is his first time here. And I walk up and he says, Yeah, I'm a golf course architect. And I'm like, Me too.

SPEAKER_01

Oh no, no.

SPEAKER_03

At this point, all I've done was cleared a few trees. I'm thinking, you know, this is, you know, he might as well have been said Gil Hands. Like I thought, I'm talking to a golf course architect. How cool is this? You know, I wore a shirt and tie my whole life, never mowed my own lawn, never turned a screwdriver, and now I'm clearing trees in the backyard with no real purpose, but I'm sort of kind of seeing this golf course come together. And so I called him up after doing all the clearing and I said, Hey man, come to Texas because he's in Oklahoma City. Um, tell me if I'm crazy, but I think I'm gonna build this backyard golf course. And so he drove down, you know, had time on his schedule. I didn't know at the time, but he didn't have any work. I I I was kind of one of the early clients. And so he drove down. He's like, This is awesome, you gotta do it. And I'm like, Really? And he's like, Oh, that's great. And I'm like, okay, well, you know, maybe we should do it. And so I said, Hey, Colton, you know, I don't know anything. Like, you know, find me a turf company, find me a shaper. And I probably didn't even say find me a shaper because I didn't know what that meant. Um he said, we need to find a shaper. And so he had just started collaborating with Brian Ross, who had just gotten started. I mean, just gotten started. He was living in Austin at the time. And so Brian comes down for three weeks. I rented a bobcat, and he brought in 250 yards of base and shaped out my punch bowl, my double plateau, which looks like the ninth at Fisher's, and my my little square plateau green. So Colton found him, and then Colton found the right turf company that you know built greens that you could hit shots to because these are 80 yard shots, and I didn't want it to, I wanted it to be real golf. And so uh found an incredibly great uh turf product that holds shots, and you can hit 80 85 yard shots on my greens and the ball stops. Um, and so it's it's really it's really cool. Um and you know, last minute on the golf course, Brian and Colton are like, you gotta put grass down. You know, you you because I was just gonna be target greens and tea boxes with just native cactus, and I mean it's it's rocky and it's rough. And I don't have irrigation up there, and I have a water well. We don't have great water, like it's it's not they're not real deep wells. And so he convinced me to put down this Tif Tuff as just to like at least have some ground cover, it'll die, but at least you won't be walking on cactus. And you know, as soon as you put it down, you start thinking, well, it looks pretty, you know. I'd like it to stay pretty, and the greens are pretty. And so then it became now I'm watering the grass every single day. I'm you know learning about real mowers, and now I spend 80% of my time delightfully and happily mowing and taking care of the real grass, and 20% of my time hosting people to hit shots on the turf greens. That's really cool.

SPEAKER_02

And uh I read the article that you sent in Golfers Journal have it uh as well, but pulled it up and read it about, I guess Colton wrote the thing talking about your your putting course. It's not putt-putt, it's a putting course. So was that originally a part of the plan or was that kind of an add-on?

SPEAKER_03

So no, the putting course that we did at San Pedro, which is an amazing par three here in San Antonio. They've got they get 68,000 rounds a year, they've got a huge driving range. The the pro I mentioned earlier, Joe Caruso is now the teaching pro there, and you know, he's got an amazing kids program. I did a job, small job for one of the guys that kind of runs that, and he called me one day and said, Hey, we've got this tiny little putting green that you know we need to redo. It's just flat and there's nothing to it. And so I went out there and there it was. It was flat, you know, just turf, no grade, you know, everything kind of falls one way, laid on concrete. And I was like, Yeah, we'll do it. And then I looked over and there was this, you know, basically turned out to be another 7,000 square feet of unusable ground because they had these beautiful oak trees. No sunlight gets through, you can't grow grass, never rains here anyway. And so I said, Well, why don't we just expand this and do, you know, a putting course? And so I I did this silly little design from the sky where it looks like the face of a dog, like it's the profile of a dog, and the the nose and the mouth are these green mounds that you hit around. And I think that was like, oh, okay, well, that could be cool. And so uh they gave me the green light to design completely on my own this 18-hole course, and it's all templates because that's I everything I see, I see uh I see templates. I try not to be repetitive, but um I don't know, I love that kind of stuff. So um I know Tom Coyne. I got to go visit Sullivan back in 2023 before they started any work on it. Colton on a trip that we did to Sleepy and some other places, we went over there and played Nineholes with Tom, had an incredible time, sat on the patio the next day, and it rained for several hours, and we talked to locals and smoked and drank and just talked about public golf. And you know, here I am. I've got this backyard golf course, literally a home course, and Tom's around to revitalize this course and write a book called A Course Called Home. And so that was really special. Um, and so Tom and I have kept up, and you know, obviously Colton joining forces with him is super cool. And Colton's helped me with a lot of design and and drawing different dreams that we've done in some really cool projects. So, and and Brian has too. Brian and Colton are my go to's when I need you know specific drawings and stuff, and obviously. Obviously, their careers have taken off, which has been like one of the coolest fulfillments. Uh seeing both those guys just kill it now. So it's good stuff.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I love the uh I love the story. I love the template hole idea. Um and yeah, great article. If you haven't read it, uh Jonathan. Um and so the the idea behind it's not putt-putt.

SPEAKER_03

Did y'all were y'all golfers? It's a it's it's a putting course, yeah. Yeah, you know, putt- putt is like bumper bowling. Everything's self-contained, everything back to the hole. And as a golfer growing up, it always sucked when your you know, six-year-old niece could make four hole in ones because she bounced it off four rocks. Right. You were trying to make putts and you know, you couldn't because the contouring sucked, or because the the it was just built, built by some guy that does concrete work and didn't understand golf. And then you hit off those placemats, you know, and it's like the ball comes off the putter bouncing. And I was always like, that's a dumb thing. Why would you hit off a placemat? And so I wanted to build a putting course that was set up like a golf course. If you miss the fairway, you're gonna be in somebody else's fairway. And, you know, I've been to Bandon three times, I've played on their punch bowl green a thousand times, and it's so much fun to putt into other groups, you know. It's you know, you when you're on the golf course and you're in somebody else's fairway, it's embarrassing. But on a putting course, it's hilarious. And so uh this course is very hard. It should be played with a um uh stableford type scoring because there's gonna be some big numbers. But the the benefit of that is this when you go play putt-putt, the idea should be that you should try to make putts. And I think avoid three putts. So I told the guys when we built it, I think you do stableford scoring. Uh there's gonna be some really hard holes, but every hole is makeable. There's not any hole out there where you have to hit it off of a rock or you have to hit it off of a post. Everything you can keep on the ground with natural contouring, and it's a it's a very reasonable practice for putting. There's one double breaker, but everything else and and there's a St. Andrews Bridge you hit over. There's one weird thing, but yeah. Um highly recommend, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Highly recommend people go check out the article for sure and go visit it and and enjoy the putting course. But uh back back to your backyard course, Gate International. Um, I imagine, you know, 80 yards is the the farthest the farthest shot?

SPEAKER_03

Well, I haven't uh two routings. I've got the main four-hole routing, which is 80, 70, 60, 50 yards. Easy. What a perfect, what a perfect way to practice.

SPEAKER_02

So I imagine your short game is pretty dialed right now. It is.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. I'm um if I ever build the driving range in my backyard, I'll be real good because I'll get the T-shot figured out. But around the green, my handicap is significantly lower than it is anywhere else.

SPEAKER_00

Strokes gain for sure. I I gotta go back to how in the world, what kind of salesman were you if you're convincing someone when you've never really built an actual putting green or anything else, and you're like, you should probably give me this project to do. And it's not gonna look like a putt-putt course, which I know is what you mentioned you wanted, but I'm gonna give I'm gonna build something else with my imagination.

SPEAKER_03

I I gotta give a lot of credit to um the two guys that that run the San Antonio golf trails. Um, I mean, that they Andrew Peterson and Thomas Agion. I mean, Thomas was my friend, he's the guy that I did the job for. They they they gave me a lot of their trust because not only did I not have a design, I have my design wasn't even done until a week. Oh, they don't know this. My design wasn't done until a week before we started. And it happened one Sunday morning. I woke up, I panicked, I realized we're starting in a week. I I told them I was gonna do a nine-hole reversible thing, and I had literally nothing but this half of it that looked like a dog from the sky designed. And I opened up my laptop, I got out my phone, I do all my designs by literally using the finger paint app on the iPhone, and I finger paint all my designs, and it took me about 20 minutes, and I had eight of the coolest holes routed exactly the way I wanted them. I had the 11th hole as the Eden, which is the original Eden at St. Andrews, and I got in my truck. I drove way too fast out to San Pedro. I painted out probably 12 holes in the ground, did a bunch of drone work, and we figured out the rest as soon as we started turning over dirt. And so we somehow turned those 12 holes in the middle into 18, and they they really are very cool. It's if you if you understand it's gonna be tough and you're gonna put up a high number, play stable where you'll have an absolutely phenomenal time.

SPEAKER_00

Well, unfortunately, finger paint on your iPhone directly goes to CAD, so it's really not that difficult to get those plans into a readable source, right? As soon as I learn how to do CAD, I'm gonna learn how to do CAD.

SPEAKER_03

No, I we we literally we go out and we dig it out of the dirt one inch at a time. And it's uh it's scary because it when I first started doing it, we've made a lot of mistakes, obviously, when you don't know what you're doing. But um, you know, we've we've learned and now it's it's incredibly fun to start with a blank slate and to say we're gonna build something. And it's great for for you know, when you have five or six guys that work for you and they feel like they're constantly looking to you with what to do, it's great to let them go shape something out and you come to it and say, that's better than what I was gonna do, leave it. And you know, they love that. So um, if you have plans, they feel like they have to stick exactly to the plans. And listen, plans are great, but they oftentimes need to be modified. So um I'd rather dig it, build it right up out of the ground, let it be organic, let the owner make decisions, let the owner make calls, and uh give them a sense of ownership too. So I think it comes out better that way. And it's funny, I was real quick. I was I did a little tour of uh uh New Holland. Um, I think you guys did something with Jeff more a couple weeks ago. Uh went out to New Holland and um we're talking with him, Jeff, we're driving around the course, and you know, I'm wanting to see Brian's plans. I'm a huge old Barnwell fan, a huge old Brian Schneider fan, and I want to see his plans. I'm like, Jeff, like, show me the plans. And he's like, uh Brian's just gonna kind of come scrape it out. And I'm like, uh, whereas I want to see the plans, I love that. Like Brian's literally out there just designing it as he goes, and that is the coolest thing.

SPEAKER_00

Well, just know that you're my wife may or may not be happy with you about a year from now because I've got about five to ten acres probably where I could put together a backyard putting green slash holes and then turn maybe turn down.

SPEAKER_02

Have you ever used a uh a pole saw, though?

SPEAKER_00

No, listen, I'm the same way. I don't know how to turn a screwdriver, I don't know how to run. I got I'm not allowed to touch heavy equipment. I'm allowed to use a drill. That's the extent of my someone lets me do stuff with. So I feel like this is a rebirth of me. I need a fourth or fifth job anyway. So we might as well.

SPEAKER_03

When I was 18, I looked my dad square in the eye and I said, Dad, I will never mow my own lawn. I was so proud of mowing his lawn. I just said, I'm gonna make enough money in this life where I can pay somebody to mow my own lawn. From the age of I owned my, I bought my first house when I was 21. I don't I owned a lot of houses. I had never mowed my own lawn. And now I mow my lawn every other day, sometimes back to back. And sometimes I'll mow it in the morning and then I'll mow it in the evening. And it's one of my favorite things in the world.

SPEAKER_00

So it is the hundred percent reason why I will never actually build a golf course that requires grass because I there's nothing that I despise worse. I'm there's no sense of completion for me. Like whenever something's done, you know, like you probably get done with, you turn around, you're like, man, that looks good. And the only thing that runs through my head is that stupid grass is gonna grow again. That's the only thing that goes through my head whenever someone has to make asked the mole on. So now the artificial turf stuff, maybe we can work that out, give myself some some green, some green shots, and we can talk about that. How old are you, Jonathan? Same age as you. I'm 40. I'm 46.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, so I'm telling you, I would have never believed that I that I would have ever mowed my loan lawn, let alone enjoy it. Uh so life takes a Jonathan direction. Jonathan, in five years, it'll be five years.

SPEAKER_00

So you gotta go get into the golf course. Don't put that juju on me. I don't want anything to juice. I know it. I know in five years. I I am 100% sold on the idea that I should probably figure out how to put at least four different greens on my property in some pretty cool spots. The aspect of mowing grass is not what I'm interested in. I if I do that, I'll go buy one of those Robo grass mowers, and then I can just like map it out and they can mow the grass for me, and I don't have to do it.

SPEAKER_03

So have you guys had Steven Edwards on yet? Um yeah, and so that way I had him out, or he was he was doing some tournament deal at Briggs Range or something a couple weeks ago, and I had him brought him out because obviously there's a lot of through lines there with Colton and and all that. Uh, but you know, the so the the backstory or the the way to kind of wrap up the Gator National thing is it's it's open to the public. It's been open ever since we we built it. It's the the idea was that dads would bring their kids. Um, and I, you know, I the backstory and you know the the what we went through led to a couple of things, but one of them was I wanted dads to be able to have a great place where they could have fun with their young sons, teach them golf, teach them the way Harvey Peanut taught, you know, Tom and Ben, getting the hole, getting the ball in the hole and working your way out, short game stuff in an environment where the dad wasn't stressed out. You know, um raising my sons at a at a country club, I you know, I did life wrong in a lot of ways on the golf course. You know, you don't want your kids holding guys up, you don't want them yelling, you don't want them being loud, and you you end up spending more time being anxious and stressed out about how your boys are acting, then are you enjoying and investing in them? And so for me, it was like, you know, I think golf can be a lot like church for kids, where it's no run, no fun. And that's what church was like for me growing up, and I didn't want to go because it was no run, no fun. And I think golf should be for kids run around, have fun, have a great time, just like learning about Jesus. You do it outside with the butterflies, and they're gonna, they're gonna maybe one day want to go to church. But you start there and then you work them into golf. Um, and even Tom Coyne, you know, he said something incredible in the book, A Course Called Home, that just came out. You know, he said something to the effect of, you know, growing the game really probably is more about shrinking it. Like making golf affordable, that's shrinking it. Making golf courses that are smaller that kids want to play at, that's shrinking it. You know, all those things, the patch in Augusta, Georgia is shrinking it, but it's making it way bigger and way better. And so, you know, here in um um Troy and talking about the short courses and how, you know, he sees more and more of those. And that that's that's just gonna continue to happen because we don't have as much time as we used to. We certainly don't have as much uh money as we used to for green fees, and it really is healthier for kids and families to be in places they can have their shirt untucked and keep the golf weirdos and sickos where they have to have their shirts tucked in, so don't have to deal with it, right? And and at some point, if that those kids want to graduate and do golf a different way, they can, but get them into it where they really enjoy it. I love it.

SPEAKER_02

Everybody, uh Grant Holly is taking his kids, uh he's out in California. I think he's coming to the East Coast, and he, you know, he's been like, Oh, yeah, I heard you guys talking about this podcast or this place to go to. I'm gonna check that off. So he's kind of built out like a track. And you mentioned Old Barnwell, their kids course, and so yeah, I mean, stuff like what you're doing, it's perfect for the game. Somebody told me with my kids, so I got a son and a daughter, they're 21 and 18 now. And somebody said, Whatever you do, if you want them to like golf, let them let them have fun. And whether that's driving the cart, playing in the bunker, you know, maybe hitting a shot, who cares? Just whatever, having a snack. That way they associate, uh, kind of like you talking about church, like they associate going to the golf course with fun and not, oh man, you know, mom or dad's gonna make me putt a thousand times or something like that. So my kids love it and they love uh still love getting out and playing with me, which is fun for me. So uh I I love what you're doing uh in that response.

SPEAKER_03

My son's 16. I I he doesn't get as much enjoyment as as he used to about turtles on a golf course, but he still delights in seeing turtles on a golf course. And that's I mean, ever since he was two, he's been on golf courses with me. And it was really difficult at times when I was trying to keep my good round going to stop and look at the daggum turtles. And I was wrong, should have done that more. And Gator National is a place where you can be whoever you want to be, run around, yell, we got deer all over the place. It's it's a really special place. I hope I hope anybody that's got kids will come check it out because they'll absolutely love it.

SPEAKER_02

What is that like having uh having people just show up to your backyard to play golf? They got to call and set up a tea time, or they just walk around the house and show up.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I mean, I typically they you know, message me through Twitter or Instagram and I make sure they're not a serial killer and exchange numbers. Um, and you know, my I don't have a gate at my house, but there, you know, there is a security at the front of the neighborhood. So as long as we get through that checkpoint, um, you know, they can come and play as long as they want. We have people playing while we're having dinner, you know, but it's it's far enough behind the house and above the house where we don't see what's going on and they don't see us at the at the dinner table. But um it's great. We and we've got scorecards, you know, we we got it all. We got pencils. Uh, you can you can buy merch. I don't try to sell it because at some point it might need to make money to keep it going, but I'm trying to not have it be a money thing. But you know, I got logoed stuff if you want to get logo stuff.

SPEAKER_02

So is a Pro Shop in your kitchen? Pretty much.

SPEAKER_03

Well it's in the kitchen at one point. Then it's in the study for packaging, and then it moves on to kind of moves around the house.

SPEAKER_00

Let's pretend um we needed to convince uh somebody needed to convince their wife that this was a good idea and they needed to build this in their backyard. Do you mind if I ask how much like per hole? Because I know designing it and moving dirt and stuff like that. I've got friends who know how to move dirt, but at some point you gotta buy the turf that can receive the balls. Yeah. So what does that look like?

SPEAKER_03

Well, um, yeah, there's there's there's not a lot of turf companies out there that manufacture the right kind of turf. There's even fewer installers that know how to do it. And you know, with with uh Instagram videos, I feel like um everybody's brother-in-law has a turf company right now. So uh there's uh there's it's kind of like plastic surgery. I tell guys, you know, if you wanted your wife to have a no job, you wouldn't call your general practitioner because you don't want to see the lines. Uh if you if you don't want to see the lines in turf, you better you better call up you know the the plastic surgeon. So uh the the installation is the is the main thing. The the turf material is important, but the installation is the main thing. Uh 25 to 30 bucks a square foot in Texas. And I think kind of most areas is a pretty decent number if you wanted to get a really great sand-filled golf green. And that's the key. It's got to have a bunch of sand in it so that it it lands softly. Yeah. And there's some other important things that you gotta do, but that's that's a pretty good barometer around here. And that that number travels pretty well.

SPEAKER_00

What size greens do you have? Because I've looked into I mean, my first thought, again, I've got I've got land and space and a couple different routings I've literally drawn out on my iPhone maps as well, just like you. Uh so like how big of a square footage do you have for a green? Because it's only 80 yards. It's not like you've got a traditional green that's 4,000 square feet or anything like that.

SPEAKER_03

Right. So average golf course that the PGA Tour plays on, those greens are 6,000 square feet. The two smallest courses, Pebble Beach and Harbor Town, 3,500 and 3,000, respectively. So those are small greens. Right. My double plateau, which is the the sweetened one you play to twice, is 3,500. So it's a pretty good size backyard green. Right. My plateau, which is the square one, is only 1,700, and my punch bowl, which is only 1,800. But you know, that punch bowl, it's probably only 600 square foot of a you can put a pin on because it's a massive slope. So a great size green for a you know normal backyard uh is a thousand to 1,500 square feet. But you know, scale matters if you've got acreage, you know, you've got to kind of build a little bit bigger so it fits the topo and fits the scale of the property a little bit better. So, you know, an 80-yard shot being hit to a 1,500 square foot green, it can be done if it's canted the right way. You know, if uh if the guy that's building it has thought through it, but if you want to hit an 80-yard shot, I recommend building at least a 2,000 square foot green, something like that. Okay, that's not terrible. And if you want to hit more greens, build it bigger, Jonathan.

SPEAKER_00

Or build it smaller, and then all of a sudden you go to real golf courses, you're like, who this is the largest green I've ever seen in my life, and it's just 6,000 square feet.

SPEAKER_02

I gotta go to landman, go to landman in what, 35,000 square foot? So that's right. That's a little different.

SPEAKER_00

Those are those are wild. I haven't been out there yet. Those are wild. Whenever you come, I live in Augusta, so whenever you come volunteer next year.

SPEAKER_03

Have you seen my place? Have you seen my place on Kemp Drive? On what? I probably shouldn't. We got to edit out my just gave you my address. So I have a I have a house in Augusta.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_03

It's a mile from the club, and we built a 4,500 square foot replica of 13 in my backyard last year.

SPEAKER_00

Did you?

SPEAKER_03

So every night during Master's Week, we have guys over and betting. It's an absolute blast. Yeah. Um, I'll send you some photos of it. But if you look up my Instagram, if you look up my Instagram, we had did a bunch of videos this year about it. It's sick.

SPEAKER_00

It's got the Hogan Bridge, it's got the I mean it's got both bridges. It's it's awesome. Are you just hosting volunteers? Like you've got the house there, and then you bring volunteers and other folks.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, we get tickets too for the practice rounds. Like this year, we had a bunch of family come in. We had wife, son, daughter. My my brother uh is a volunteer also, so his family was in town for you know two, three days. That's yeah, it's a lot of volunteers from the from the holes that we work on, and people from Twitter that, you know, know Gator National or guys that were hosted from different places around the country. It's a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, we had nine or eleven people at my house this year hosted through the podcast. People that we met, they were like, I'm getting into town, or like, come on, let's go. Very cool. So you're from there originally? No, I just moved here in 2009. Okay. It's it's a cool little town. It's not it's not a bad little space. Lots of good golf head uh all around here.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I've done Old Barnwell a few times. Uh well, tree farming. Most of them, it's it's really good. And it's getting it's only getting better. I agree. I'm up in Columbia, so I'll come be I'll come visit you guys. Y'all both need to come to Texas. Have you have y'all ever heard of Cordillera Ranch? I haven't. From you, yeah. Okay. Uh it's it's it's in Bernie, which is just north of San Antonio. Um, really great course in Texas.

SPEAKER_02

And uh we'll do a best ball road trip, come see you.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, you can stay. I got a case on my property, and you have a backyard short course that you can go play morning and evening. So you guys would absolutely have it. It I may turn it into a golf destination spot at some point because it would work. That'd be awesome.

SPEAKER_02

We'll definitely do that. Um man, we could chat about this stuff all day. We we probably should respect your time here and kind of finish the actual podcast portion of this thing. Um, one question, Philip, that we ask all our guests, and I don't know, maybe we ask this two ways. Yeah, we we want to know the story of your most memorable golf shot, but but I gotta ask two ways at your at Gator National and then just in general, uh, outside of Gator National. What's what's the story of your most memorable golf shots?

SPEAKER_03

Um at Gator National, most memorable golf shot. Well, I still hold the course record of four under on the four-hole routing. I birdied all four probably a month or two months after I built it. And one of my nemesis' from the club was playing with me, so that was amazing. I had that scorecard right next to my mirror. Um, my most memorable golf shot would be so as a volunteer, I get to play the national. And my my first year in 2019 on 18, I hit an incredible drive. I cleared the bunkers down the left side. There was plenty of room over there, and I had 110 yards in. The pin was Sunday, and I hit my 52 to the backhill. The four caddy's standing up on the hill, you know, and I hit, I knew I hit it good, and that's the perfect club for that number. But he he didn't motion, he didn't, he didn't do anything to say anything. He's just like positioned very solemnly, looking at where I think the ball is. And my playing partner were like, he's like, Where is it? I'm I don't I don't know and hold my finish, you know, I'm trying to hold my forever. And he's like, and I remember he goes, I give up. And he pulls his club out of the bag and starts walking to his ball. And I'm still watching the cat. And it felt like a minute and a half, and all of a sudden he goes, like that. Wow. Wow. First time I played it.

SPEAKER_02

So that was take that long to trickle down next to the hole. Like he didn't want to.

SPEAKER_03

I mean, if you've been there, you know that hill is so it's so tall. And I, you know, I think I was amped up. I think I juiced it way up the hill. I think I got it all because all the way up there, and it just took a long time. And maybe not. Maybe I was just it living in this moment where it felt like eternity, but it felt like I was standing there for a minute and a half waiting for him to signal. It was 15 seconds.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_02

Man, that was anytime you can say anytime you could say, well, my my most memorable shots at Augusta National, like that that trumps so many other stories. So it could have been.

SPEAKER_00

And my backyard. Like in my backyard. Been been fortunate in that regard for sure. So absolutely. Well, uh, we go a little another little thing we call it a quick nine, just a little back and forth here. I'm assuming this is gonna be the answer. What is the favorite course that you've ever played? Fisher's Island. Really?

SPEAKER_03

Wow. I wouldn't have Gator National without Fishers Island. I wouldn't be designing golf greens without Fishers Island. Um, it's a pretty, pretty tall ask to get there. And the way it came about was just like uh it was it was too easy the way it came about. And um it's the Cypress Point of the East Coast, and as an Italian with dad from Queens, New York, I'm all East Coast. So um Long Island's my favorite place to golf. Been fortunate to play a lot of those up there, and um, you know, Augusta National is pretty high up there, right? Like it's just uh but you have to try to parse out the Masters. I mean, you you have to try to parse out the Masters, even when comparing it to a course like Peachtree. You know, Peachtree is every bit as good of a golf course as Augusta National is every bit as good. And, you know, if it if the temperatures weren't so cold in Augusta, they wouldn't have switched the nines, and who knows what the masters tournament would be because McKenzie was wrong. McKenzie wanted to have the second nine first. And so that was that golf course becoming this epic tournament golf course was almost by accident. I mean, Mother Nature's what caused it. And so you go play Peachtree, you walk around that property, and you feel the most intimate setting, camaraderie with every other golfer on the course. You never feel like you're further than 400 yards away from anybody. You can do 360-degree turns in five different places and just see golf green, golf green, golf green. And that's what the old golden age stuff was. It was small ballparks, best piece of property around, and we'll build the neighborhoods around it. Now it's neighborhoods, and we'll give the designer all the valleys. And so I'll never forget being in several places at Fisher's Island and just turning and doing in 360 and saying, like, I see the whole course. I see eight flags from where I'm at. And if I were in a tournament, I'm on the, you know, whatever, eighth hole. There, the guy on the 16th is right next to me. I know where he's at in his match, and it helps me understand where I'm playing versus, you know, not to call anybody out, but Sage Valley, you know, it's 18 individual holes that wind through a forest, really, and you never really see anybody else except for the the early part of it, you know, cool place. But uh, so if you take the masters out of Augusta National, which I try to when I'm talking about my the best golf course, uh Fisher's Island stands alone. It's um it's it's the best.

SPEAKER_02

Well, you have you have listed uh a lot of courses that are all on our bucket list, uh including Gator National, uh, is on the bucket list now for sure. What uh what course is at the top of your bucket list?

SPEAKER_03

Cyprus is is at the top. Um, and it'll it'll happen. It's uh um my the Fisher the Fishers Island of the West Coast. Yeah, and I I would say this, like when I started playing, when I started playing great golf courses, my goal was to play all the the McRayners, right? I just want to play everything McDonald did and everything Raynor did. I'd I don't have a desire to play the top 100, or I'm not trying to peg that. I just want to play all those. So, you know, Cyprus is on the top of my bucket list because it obviously it's Cyprus and it's a pretty tall ask. But, you know, if somebody called me and said, you could play Cyprus tomorrow, you could play Chicago Golf Club tomorrow, uh, and I've played Chicago, I'd have a really hard time turning down Chicago to go play Cyprus. Like I just, you know, the the things that my eyes see when I see golf are they're angular, they're square, they're linear, and uh they're sticking up out of the ground, you know, they're bold. So um it's not that I don't love Mackenzie courses, and obviously they're they're great, but um I think Cypress is the one I have to say is that is the that's the bucket list one. All right. What is your favorite course that no one knows about? People are hearing about it, but Sullivan County. Are y'all familiar with the Sullivan County story? Oh yeah. Okay, so Sullivan County. When I did my Gator National scorecard, there's a quote on it. And the quote is, hey Tom, we get to go play golf today. My son's name is Tom, my dad's name was Tom, and that's a quote from Tom Coyne's a course called Ireland. And it was my best friend Mike who got me into golf architecture, who was kind of helping me with logos and the scorecard that said, Dude, you should put this quote in your scorecard. So the fact that I got to go up to Sullivan County and play Tom's home course, you know, um, that that that's that's pretty special. And the fact that Colton got to be a part of it, you know, when Colton was a big part of what we did at Gator National. Um, but uh other than that, that no one's heard about. Oh my god. Yeah, it's got to be Sullivan.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. And I'm going back in taking my son for the first time uh July or June 30th, um, taking him up there to play. And uh we're gonna get to go play one more special one with him, so I'm excited about that for it.

SPEAKER_02

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

All right. Well, this probably will answer part of this next question, but who's in your dream foresome?

SPEAKER_03

Oh boy. Um, it'd have to be a five sum. It'd be my dad, my brother, and my two sons. Perfect. Good dream.

SPEAKER_02

Your dream, you can do whatever you want.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

It's probably at his golf course, so he can literally just do whatever he wants.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. If if it were if I had to pick pros, it'd probably be Hogan Woods and um I don't know, maybe Bobby Locke. See the greatest putter that ever putted.

SPEAKER_00

I'll try your new your putting course. There you go. All right. What is your favorite snack at the turn?

SPEAKER_03

Uh the uh peanut butter and jelly bacon at Fisher's is pretty high up there, but since that doesn't happen very often, I like the uncrushables. I think that's a good the uncrushables, a good, you know, it's perfect, it's quick.

SPEAKER_02

Is there a is there a cooler of uncussed uncrustables and canned Gatorades at Gator National?

SPEAKER_03

No, so it's funny. We have so many things we need to do to make Gator National better. And that is definitely one of the to have a cooler that we can always have stocked for people is definitely on the list. But um, we also need a scorecard, mailbox, and a few other things, so we gotta knock things out. We also try to run a business, so yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02

Uh besides uh your own, what is your favorite golf course logo?

SPEAKER_03

Fisher's. Um yeah, and I don't have my Gator National logo anywhere around here right now. Um, but my my Gator National logo, a lot of people think it's Fishers when they kind of see it at a distance. That was a big part of that. But yeah, Sleepy Hollows up there, understandably, but I think the the Fishers one is just the classiest, coolest, simplest.

SPEAKER_00

It's great. Yeah. And in all your travels, all the golf courses, what has been your favorite pro shop purchase?

SPEAKER_03

So I used to have an ugly side of me that that spent way too much money at pro shops. Is this a safe place? Can I admit that? Um so that's a that would be a long conversation. Um favorite thing. It would have to be something for my son. You know, what have I bought for my son that he absolutely loves? Uh I I asked him the other day, you know, I said, What's the best golf course you've ever played, Tommy? And he said, Augusta Country Club. I took him to to Augusta when we built our golf green and I got him around out there, and he was like, Oh, I love that place. And so I think the shirt that I bought him at Augusta Country Club is probably the favorite thing I ever bought. He loves it. Yeah, my back club too.

SPEAKER_02

All right. What is one thing golfers should do?

SPEAKER_03

Uh they should repair, they should fix more divots in the fairway currently. I think there should be a rule that every golf court should come back with a sand divot thing empty. And if you don't come back with it empty, you drive back out to the golf course and you fill as many divots as you can until you empty out at least two canisters.

SPEAKER_02

I I love that answer.

SPEAKER_00

That's not a bad, that's not a bad deal. They golf golf courses should figure out how walkers they should come up with better ways for walkers to be able to do it. Because sometimes when you're walking, like they don't create uh a lot of courses don't create that alternative.

SPEAKER_03

Well, I like a lot of the older places, um, especially like in the Northeast, and I haven't done a lot of West Coast stuff, but like I think Oakmont still, their caddies have like this little canister, this like long thing canister, and they just kind of you know fill it up the hole, like Shawshank Redemption style, you know, emptying out their trousers, you know, because it kind of drops in the hole. So I think a lot of the clubs do that. But where I play, it's 100,000 degrees. Very few places have caddies, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_00

We're driving on cement, blaring music, but it's you know, it's Texas golf. All right. Last question. Finish this sentence.

SPEAKER_03

The best part of golf is the best part of golf is um uh you know, as as coined as it sounds, I think about those those silly spoof videos that that guy does every master's year, you know, he kind of does the gym dance thing. But for me, it's just it's three words fathers and sons. Uh, you know, um, that's the best thing about golf is fathers and sons.

SPEAKER_02

I love it. Philip, this has been an honor, man, to get to talk to you and hear your story and what you're doing at uh at Gator National. So tell everybody, and we'll have links, of course, in the show notes and stuff, but tell everybody where they can find out more and how they can come. Check it out.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, uh, it's a pretty low profile. Gator National doesn't have a website, um, but just my my Twitter and my or X and my Instagram is at Gator National. Um message me, I'll I'll get in touch with you. And uh would love to have anybody come and would love to have you guys come down. Cordier is a great, great course. You'd you'd enjoy it. Um and I come up to Augusta at least twice a year, so we'll uh we'll play some golf for sure soon.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, let us know when you're around. We're we're free most of the time.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, that'd be a lot of fun. Well, Phil, thank you again. Everybody go check out Gator National, go play it, uh, and go go take your kids out to the golf course for sure. So go gate. For what's that?

SPEAKER_03

And go gators.

SPEAKER_02

That's where we disagree. Come on, man, go gator. You had to do that. Oh man. All right. Well, for Phil. Yeah. Man, we shared Spurrier.

SPEAKER_03

I mean, we got we got this Spurrier part two. So Well, and you know, I don't I like South Carolina. I just I don't like Tennessee, I don't like LSU, and I don't like Florida State. Everybody else, even Georgia W. We can agree on that. We can agree on that.

SPEAKER_02

Oh man. All right. Well, that's for our other I guess we need to start a college football show and a uh building golf course show, Jonathan. Um count me up in college football.

SPEAKER_00

I don't have I have no horse in that race.

SPEAKER_01

What?

SPEAKER_02

Not the southern uh Illinois, the Lincoln Christian footballers, right? Lincoln Christian college. We'll talk about that later. Yeah. Appreciate it, man. For Philip and Jonathan, this is Robbie. It's been another episode of the whole story podcast.

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Jonathan Hill

Co-host
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Robby Woodard

Co-host