Residential Demolition Permits

The Montgomery County Department of Permitting Services (DPS) podcast episode, “Residential Demolition Permits,” explores when residential demolition permits are required, how they are defined, and what to expect during the permitting process. DPS Podcast Host Gail Lucas and DPS Plan Reviewer Richard Strouth discuss how DPS determines whether a residential construction project qualifies as a demolition, and how such a designation triggers the requirement to meet current building and energy codes for new homes. Plan Reviewer Strouth clarifies that if 67% or more of the first-story exterior walls of a one- or two-family dwelling are removed, the project is considered a demolition and requires a demolition permit.

Listeners will learn about:

• The role of a plan reviewer when it comes to reviewing construction plans.
• The difference between demolition permits and addition/alteration permits with specific examples.
• Additional permits required for residential demolition projects, and what to know about impact taxes.
• How DPS can assist before construction begins, including resources and guidance.

Previous DPS Podcast episodes have covered a variety of topics, including accessory dwelling units, building safety, contractors, eSolar, new codes, residential fast-track permits, special event permits, use and occupancy certificates, and vendor licenses.

Do you have a question or idea for a future DPS Podcast episode? Email us at dps.podcast@montgomerycountymd.gov.

Transcript

Gail Lucas 0:10

Welcome to the Montgomery County Department of Permitting Services podcast. I'm Gail Lucas, your host. I'm also the division chief for the Customer Support and Outreach Division. Joining us on the podcast today is Richard Stroud. Richard is a residential plan reviewer, and our topic today is demolition, knocking stuff down. But before we start talking about breaking stuff up, Richard, why don't you tell our listeners what you do, what a residential plan reviewer does.

Richard Strouth 0:42

Sure. Hi Gail. Thanks for having me. It's great to be here. We take a look at your plans. You have a project in mind. You bring us a set of plans. We take a look at it, make sure that it meets the residential code requirements. And that would be the 2021 International Residential Code.

Gail Lucas 1:05

Okay.

What Counts As Demolition Now

Richard Strouth 1:06

Okay. So we take a look at that, see that it meets plan review requirements and meets code, and we either approve it or we send it back for corrections.

Gail Lucas 1:16

Okay. Our topic today, as I said, is about demolition. It's about knocking houses down. And when we think about demolition, typical person thinks about demolition, that means we're taking it all the way down. But recently there was a change to the law with respect to demolition. So even if you're partially taking a house down, then you may need a demolition permit. Can you talk a little bit about that change?

Richard Strouth 1:42

Sure. So what we've um what we've done is we saw the need to actually refine and define the you know the definition of demolition so that it's more specific and we actually put limits on it. So the limit is 67% of the house must, if you are demolishing more than 67%, okay, um, then you need a demolition permit. Okay? Up to that point you can use a addition alteration permit.

Gail Lucas 2:20

Okay. So if I'm taking my house 100% down, it's a demolition, it requires a demolition permit. But if I'm leaving part of my house and up to 67% of my house is demolished, then it becomes necessary for me to get a demolition permit.

Richard Strouth 2:39

Yes.

Crossing 67 Percent Means New Home

Gail Lucas 2:39

How do you treat the house at that point? What is the house considered then? As a uh it's it's no longer an alteration or an addition. What is it?

Richard Strouth 2:49

It's it's a new home. Okay. Okay. We view it as a new home at that point. So um with a new home, um, as with well, even in the addition alteration process, anything that you are adding or altering must meet code, minimum code, but with the new home, it must um have sprinklers for number one. Um it must meet all of the new energy requirements. Okay. Okay. Um, so it's regardless of if you're leaving that 33%, we're viewing that 30 33 percent as a new home.

Gail Lucas 3:24

Okay.

Richard Strouth 3:25

Okay? And and and that even comes to the foundation.

Gail Lucas 3:29

Okay.

Richard Strouth 3:30

A new home is required to have um waterproofing and drainage. Okay. Okay. If you're leaving that 60 uh 33 percent, excuse me, I want that um remaining portion to be properly waterproofed and properly drained. Yes. Okay. You don't get an exemption for that.

Gail Lucas 3:48

Explain to our listeners how you calculate that 67%. How do I how do I know when I've hit it, or how do you know when I've hit it?

Richard Strouth 3:56

It is a linear measurement taken on the exterior walls of the living space. All right. So a garage is not considered living space, so we're not necessarily counting the garage, but you know, room space over the garage may be living space, okay. Okay. If the garage is underground in the basement.

Gail Lucas 4:17

Okay.

Richard Strouth 4:17

Sometimes they are. Um, so it's a 67% linear measurement of exterior walls.

Gail Lucas 4:23

Okay.

Richard Strouth 4:25

And any portion of that wall between the corners that is demolished, that's included as well.

Gail Lucas 4:30

Okay.

Richard Strouth 4:31

Okay. So if you have a 100 square linear foot wall and um 50 feet of that in between the corners is going to be demolished. Then that counts in the county counts as well.

How To Measure The 67 Percent

Gail Lucas 4:44

So, with that, all of the requirements of a demolition permit kick in. That means I need to have rodent inspection and rodent treatment if necessary. Yes. I need to have asbestos abatement if my home has asbestos. And most importantly, I need to pay a demolition bond to Montgomery County. Yes? Right. So all of those requirements are going to kick in at the 67% demolition threshold. I understand that you all will do a meeting with folks that sometimes you meet with homeowners or property owners or the contractor to talk about this 67% or to talk about the need for a demolition permit. Talk to us a little bit about how those meetings happen.

Richard Strouth 5:32

Okay. So your plan reviewer, as he is reviewing your plans, if he determines, he or she determines the need for a meeting. Okay. Okay, for a demolition meeting, um, they will contact you usually through the comments on the plans that are that are sent back, stating that a meeting is needed.

Gail Lucas 5:54

Yes.

Richard Strouth 5:54

Now, it is definitely needed at that 67% threshold.

Gail Lucas 5:59

Yes.

Demolition Permit Requirements

Richard Strouth 6:00

But also, just to head off any problems, around 60%, when we start seeing the demolition getting up to 60%, okay, we're going to want to have a meeting with you.

Gail Lucas 6:10

Okay.

Richard Strouth 6:11

Okay. We're going to want you to understand and and be clear that that 67% is not negotiable. That if you if you happen to have an accident um on the on the what you're planning on leaving, that 7%. If you happen to go past that 67% from 60 to 67 and accidentally back a skid loader into a wall or find um termite damage in a wall that, oops, you know.

Gail Lucas 6:39

Yes.

Richard Strouth 6:40

That's a new home at that point. 67% is a hard line in the sand.

Gail Lucas 6:45

So if you find problems with other walls, you find problems with the other 33%, it can kick you into, or it can. I can't do the math. The other 40%, it can kick you into needing a demolition permit and needing to have your home considered a new home.

Richard Strouth 7:02

That is correct. Yes.

Gail Lucas 7:04

Okay. One of the things that we get asked in customer support about demolition, and I think one of the things that people are concerned about is impact taxes. If it's considered a new home, am I now going to pay impact taxes? And I think it's important for folks to note that demolitions are exempt from impact taxes. So if you are demolishing and you rebuild, then you don't have to pay impact taxes. They're waived at that point. So even if it's 67%, not 100%, as long as you're rebuilding on that spot, you don't have to pay impact taxes.

Richard Strouth 7:39

Is there a time frame that that's applicable to?

Meetings To Prevent Threshold Surprises

Gail Lucas 7:42

There is a time frame. It's four years. Okay. Um, and generally, if someone is 100% demolishing, then they may have that time to reconsider what they're going to rebuild. But if you're leaving 67%, you're not going to leave 33% of your house, right? It's not going to be sitting around for long. Right. It's not going to be hopefully it's not going to be sitting around for four years. Right. Okay. I know folks can do pre-design consultations. We have residential pre-design consultations. So this is certainly something that can be discussed at that point, too. You don't have to wait for the plan reviewer to give you a note on the plane.

Richard Strouth 8:20

Right, right. Well, most likely in the pre-design, you that will be discussed. If um if we see that what you are proposing is getting close to that limit, it will the subject will be brought up. Okay. And you will be informed at that point.

Gail Lucas 8:36

So you guys are paying attention to the plans and and how close I may be getting to that threshold. That's good to know. Where can I find information about this?

Richard Strouth 8:45

Okay. Um on the DPS website. Okay. Um, we have put together a guideline for residential partial demolition. Okay. Okay. Um, I we recommend anybody who is um considering a project of this scope. Okay, do your homework, um, read this thoroughly. There's lots of good information, right? Um, you know, it's it's not just about leaving the walls, it's also about leaving the supporting structure under the walls.

Gail Lucas 9:14

That's that's important.

Richard Strouth 9:15

Yeah, a lot of times we see people try to take off portions of the supporting floor system.

Gail Lucas 9:23

Yes.

Richard Strouth 9:24

You've got to keep the foundation, you've got to keep the floor system supporting those walls intact. Okay. You can't alter those. That's all part of the structure.

Gail Lucas 9:35

So if I'm removing the support of that wall, it's just like removing that wall.

Richard Strouth 9:38

I mean, we've got some pictures of people hanging walls up in the air with a rope. Oh. And yeah.

Gail Lucas 9:46

Okay. Well, that's a rope house I want to live in.

Richard Strouth 9:49

Right.

Gail Lucas 9:50

Um, we did a podcast recently about homeowners acting as their own contractor. My brothers and I can swing a mean sledgehammer. Should we be doing our own demolition? Should is that something that's best done by a contractor?

Richard Strouth 10:06

You have the ability to do that.

Gail Lucas 10:09

Okay.

Richard Strouth 10:09

Okay. The county allows you, affords you that ability.

Gail Lucas 10:13

Okay.

Richard Strouth 10:13

If, but I would caution you, if you are capable, if you have the skill set, then you know that's something you can consider. If you do not have the skill set to tackle a project like this, um, it may be best to leave it to the professionals.

Gail Lucas 10:29

Okay.

Richard Strouth 10:30

Okay.  

Gail Lucas 10:30

That's good advice. I'm going to back up a little bit and talk about the meeting again, which I think is very important for folks to keep in mind who attends those meetings. Let's first talk about the pre-design consultation. Residential pre-design meeting. Who attends those meetings?

Impact Taxes And Timelines

Richard Strouth 10:46

Well, as an applicant, you have a project in mind. You're not really sure how you want to go, you have some questions about it. You schedule a meeting with us, okay? Um typically it's one of our plan reviewers or our residential um plan review manager is in that meeting to address anything specific to residential and any code questions. Um, I believe that zoning can be included, well and septic can be included in that meeting. It all depends on what's all relative to to the to the project itself.

Gail Lucas 11:18

Now the demolition meeting specifically, who attends that meeting or who's involved in that?

Richard Strouth 11:23

We will want to see um the obviously the owner of the meeting. Um I'm sorry, the owner of the property.

Gail Lucas 11:31

Okay.

Richard Strouth 11:31

Um we want included in that because ultimately he is responsible or they are responsible for the property itself. So we want the owner, we want the contractor because he's going to be doing the work. Okay. We want them to understand you know the parameters of the requirements, yes, and the you know, the limitations as far as where the bounds of where they need to stay within that scope.

Gail Lucas 11:59

Okay.

Richard Strouth 11:59

Okay. So basically those are the two main ones. Um ... possibly the architect um or engineer, yes, depending on the scope of work.

Gail Lucas 12:09

Okay.

Richard Strouth 12:10

So yeah.

Gail Lucas 12:11

Are those meetings virtual? Are they in person?

Pre‑Design Consultations And Guidance

Richard Strouth 12:14

Most likely and typically virtual. Okay. Um we um makes things easier, keeps the environment cleaner. But if you um app uh uh want to have a face-to-face meeting, we can certainly accommodate you there. Okay. Um sometimes that is best to meet face to face, but um virtually is is good. It's fine as well.

Gail Lucas 12:36

And the pre-design meetings are all done virtually, yes. Okay. Yes. As we talked about, Richard, some of these permits are in homeowners' names or they're in LLC names who are the property owners. And we talked about that on another podcast. But there's one thing that folks need to remember when it's a new home, and that's the Office of Consumer Protection. If it is a new home, then the applicant must be registered as a new home builder with Montgomery County Office of Consumer Protection. And that includes homeowners, yes?

Richard Strouth 13:12

Correct, yes.

Gail Lucas 13:14

So the homeowner would have to have a waiver or a permission from OCP to be able to build this new home.

Richard Strouth 13:20

I believe it's a it's actually a builder's license from OCP. Yes, it is. Recall correctly. So yes, they will need to register with OCP and have a builder's license from from them. Even homeowners, not just contractors, even homeowners. Right. If it's a homeowner that is attempting or tackling this project, then yes, they themselves will need this.

Gail Lucas 13:42

So they're knocking down 40% of the walls, it's still an addition or an alteration, or an addition and an alteration. If they're knocking down 50% of the walls or 50% of the structure, they're still good. They're still good. It's when they reach what's the golden number?

Keep Structural Support Intact

Richard Strouth 13:59

67%. Okay. And again, we're going to be talking to you as you get close to that. We're going to start talking to you at 60% or even less, maybe even after 50%. Okay. So, yeah, there will be conversations had. Um, so let me talk for a minute about what is an addition.

Gail Lucas 14:17

Okay.

Richard Strouth 14:18

What what are the differences here in permits? Uh, an addition is if you are actually adding roof space to your house.

Gail Lucas 14:27

Oh, that's important, roof space. Okay.

Richard Strouth 14:27

Okay. New roof areas, new floor space.

Gail Lucas 14:31

O kay.

Richard Strouth 14:32

An alteration is if you are taking an existing space in your home.

Gail Lucas 14:38

Yes.

Richard Strouth 14:38

Like, for example, let's say a carport.

Gail Lucas 14:40

Yes.

Richard Strouth 14:41

You have a carport, it's got a roof over it, no walls. You want to make it a garage and close it, okay? That's an alteration.

Gail Lucas 14:47

Okay.

Richard Strouth 14:47

You want to take that carport, you actually want to make it uh a new room, make it a family room.

Gail Lucas 14:52

Okay.

Richard Strouth 14:52

Okay. That's still an alteration.

Gail Lucas 14:54

Okay.

Richard Strouth 14:54

Because it's got a roof over it. Okay. So that that that's that's an alteration, and that's the uh definition of addition there.

Gail Lucas 15:03

Thank you. That's that's helpful to know. What else? What else? If there's one thing that folks need to walk away or remember about this podcast, what's the one piece of advice or information that you want us to remember?

Richard Strouth 15:16

It would be that 67% threshold. Okay. Okay. That is where your headaches are going to come from. Okay. If you're trying to maintain an additional status with your permit, um if, like I said mentioned earlier, if accidents happen, we want you to understand the ramifications of that accident. You don't get a do-over, you can't patch the wall back up and tack it back up.

Gail Lucas 15:43

Yes. No, it's down at that point. Right. All right.

Richard Strouth 15:47

And it is a new home.

DIY Demolition Or Hire Pros

Gail Lucas 15:49

And it is a new home. Thank you, Richard, for joining us on the podcast today. And thank you, our listeners, for tuning in. If you have questions you'd like to see answered on our podcast, or you have a suggestion for a topic you'd like to hear us talk about, please let us know at dps.podcast at MontgomeryCountymd.gov. And remember, all of this information is available on the DPS main website at MontgomeryCountymd.gov forward slash DPS. Again, thank you for tuning in. I'm Gail Lucas, your host. Remember, DPS is your project partner.

Announcer 16:36

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