Episode 31: Should regulators commercialise?

This month's podcast from the @Institute of Regulation asks whether regulators should make money from their assets - their data and their knowledge of regulation and the law. Some might say not; regulators are often funded from public money. But @Richard South, Chief Executive of @TSO, and @Sam Walsh, a partner at @Deloitte, argue that there are legitimate ways for regulators to benefit from their assets in ways that can improve compliance and save public money.

They recommend that regulators first understand what assets they have, and then find ways to make their regulations and guidance available in ways that are accessible to their users. Today, this means not only users themselves but the AI tools that can be deployed to help users comply. UK expertise can legitimately be commercialised internationally too. 

They conclude that, by keeping an open mind, and by understanding what assets they have, UK regulators have opportunities to save taxpayers' money and generate growth if they sometimes think commercially too. You can listen to the podcast here.

Transcript

00:04:27:10 - 00:05:01:18
Unknown
Welcome to the regulation podcast from the Institute of Regulation. My name is Marcial Booth, chair of the institute and a regulator myself. On this month's podcast, we're discussing a topic that might raise eyebrows commercialising regulation. Most regulators rightly think of themselves as public bodies and working for the public good. But should regulators also commercialise their assets and make some money?

00:05:01:20 - 00:05:24:14
Unknown
Budgets are tight, and many regulators face funding cuts. Perhaps regulators can get more out of their assets, not just their physical assets, but their intellectual property, too. Maybe they can use their data better, or sell their guidance and their knowledge of their sector. For those of us who've spent our careers safeguarding taxpayers' money. These questions are not straightforward.

00:05:24:16 - 00:05:53:01
Unknown
We may say no to the prospect of commercialising regulation, but this podcast asks the question, and to help us explore these issues, we've got Sam Walsh from Deloitte, the professional services and technology firm. Sam leads Deloitte's UK work with regulators and over the last 15 years this has included advising on the establishment of new regulators such as the Prudential Regulation Authority and the new regulator for space flight and transformational change.

00:05:53:01 - 00:06:25:03
Unknown
If others, including the Health and Safety Executive, companies House Financial Conduct Authority and the Food Standards Agency, it's a great set of experience. Welcome, Sam. Hello, Marsha. Lovely to have you. And also we've got here Richard South, who's the chief executive of TSO, the Stationery Office, the leading publisher of guidance standards and regulation. TSO helps to make complex information, easy to use and understand, supporting regulators transparency, accessibility, compliance and growth.

00:06:25:05 - 00:06:48:13
Unknown
TSO also works with the Health and Safety Executive as well as with the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency, DVSa and with MHRA. The medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency, which has previously worked in the public and private sectors in publishing and digitisation. Few, lots of relevant experience that's very welcome Richard. Thank you Marcel. Lovely to have you both.

00:06:48:13 - 00:07:14:04
Unknown
Thank you both for joining us. Right. I've mentioned that some regulators may be uncomfortable about monetising their assets, particularly if they're funded with public money. But before we talk about the risks and the problem, let's identify what assets we're talking about and what regulators have that might be valuable. It's not just about the tangible assets, of course. It's about the intellectual property.

00:07:14:04 - 00:07:38:18
Unknown
Intangible stuff, data, knowledge, people. Sam. Let me start with you. Yeah, thanks. And I think regulators do at least need to understand the value of their assets. And then they can then decide what they do with that understanding. Those assets will be different in every organisation. As an example, I understand that national highways have had their data valued at £60 billion.

00:07:38:20 - 00:08:03:14
Unknown
And this understand has made this rather intangible asset a key discussion at board level, alongside the discussion of physical assets in terms of how it's maintained and improved. This is enabled National highways to judge the value of investing in, for example, its data alongside maybe building a bridge. And as she said, Marcio, I think regulators have the opportunity to consider assets beyond data.

00:08:03:16 - 00:08:28:08
Unknown
Many regulators provide additional services to their regulated populations that use the regulators knowledge. For example, I've worked with a regulator who will regularly get one of their lawyers on the phone to give some advice to a regulated entity. The regulator has to pay for that lawyer, but the entity does not. Some regulators have taken this model further. So the Civil Aviation Authority created CIA international.

00:08:28:08 - 00:08:52:03
Unknown
Many years ago, which provides consultancy and training to organisations outside the UK. And some parts of the public sector have monetised physical assets. So Ministry of Defence had an underutilised port that is now sold and leased. They released back the capacity that they need, although that's a bit less relevant here because of course regulators don't tend to have that many physical assets.

00:08:52:05 - 00:09:20:14
Unknown
Okay. Goodness. Well, you've set us off really well there, Sam, with some of the, the assets that we're talking about. Richard, what's your view on on this? So with particularly with a DSO lens on this, where we've worked with regulators to, to publish regulation itself and guidance on how to comply with regulation, we're thinking in terms of those assets being the core assets being the rules and regulation themselves.

00:09:20:16 - 00:09:49:01
Unknown
So the rules that regulators create and the for me, the conversation around commercialisation starts with how do you actually make those rules and those regulations easy to find use and understand. And we'll get into this conversation about over the next half hour about commercialisation as a route to reach the users of that regulation. People do need to comply with that regulation and to make it easier for them to comply with regulation.

00:09:49:03 - 00:10:24:04
Unknown
Okay. So, so, so far we've got, the, the foundation of the rules and the regulations themselves, as you say, Richard, and then also the data that kind of surrounds that, as well as the legal advice and other kind of, well, I think there's a little bit more in the data that surrounds the probably two areas to that one being data that regulators and some regulators may collect around, around compliance with regulation and data that they, receive and create and compile through their regulatory work.

00:10:24:06 - 00:10:48:11
Unknown
And then you've also got information about how to comply and how to understand regulation. Some regulators create that themselves. Some of them will create it with partners like us. Either licensing us to do it or it, depending on their arrangements with third parties, enabling third parties to go out and do that work on their own behalf as long as they acknowledge the regulation in itself.

00:10:48:13 - 00:11:12:16
Unknown
Yeah. Okay, good. So so I'm coming back to you. So, so far, what I'm hearing is that we've got the rules and regulations themselves as one thing. The data around that and including about compliance and then, the guidance and the how to comply stuff, Richard, that you just mentioned. So, Sam, pick one of those, and, and how can regulators potentially monetise some of these things?

00:11:12:18 - 00:11:33:20
Unknown
Yeah, I think I think the AI data is clearly going to be the kind of thing that that's on people's minds. And many regulators already make some data sets available for free on services such as data Dot, Gov.uk. I think it would be hard to suddenly put these behind a paywall all of a sudden, but other parts of the public sector already monetise their data.

00:11:33:22 - 00:11:59:14
Unknown
We know that companies and research has already paid to access anonymized NHS data, for example, and there is consideration being given to the creation of a national health data service. In addition to selling data directly, I'm aware that some public sector organisations, for example, have negotiated discounts from technology providers. For example, in exchange for data access. Okay.

00:11:59:14 - 00:12:32:04
Unknown
So, that's an interesting one for regulators because, regulators do have lots of data. Whether it's the offers for students, universities and lecturers or civil aviation authority on airlines and airports, etc., and taking, for example that some of the NHS, it could be that regulators find a way to anonymous these data including about, good practice so that people in the sectors that they regulate can find out what other people do, and help improve their practice.

00:12:32:04 - 00:13:01:02
Unknown
Is that something, Richard, that you think is a viable commercial proposition? I do, I think the, the areas that, so we're more involved in, as mentioned earlier, the regulation itself as an asset and I think, it's easy to jump quickly to data because data's in and out. The data's, almost a commodity that regulators create through their regulatory work.

00:13:01:04 - 00:13:54:11
Unknown
But the opportunity in commercialising and I use the term advisedly in this context, in using commercial routes to distribute and help people to understand regulation itself, is that it makes it easier for regulated people and organisations to comply with regulation, but creates a revenue stream where where that works for the regulator to enable that. So there's a cost to a regulator of making regulation available, of reaching their regulated markets and audiences, and where you can use commercial routes to enable that, you generate revenue to cover those costs and to enable regulators to do more in the area of guidance and support on how to understand the regulation.

00:13:54:13 - 00:14:23:08
Unknown
Okay. So so yes, moving on from from the data, which, we can all kind of look at as a, discrete asset to the, issues that you've just discussed there. Richard, the kind of the guidance, the tools, the ways in which, people can comply. Some would say, that these, that these are tools that the regulator, must make available for free in order to improve compliance across the sector as a whole.

00:14:23:08 - 00:14:46:01
Unknown
So. So how can we balance? I mean, of course, these are things that could be solved, but but at the same time, regulators want people to have to go out and get some. Yeah, they they do. They want to and they must and they should and, and of course they do. And Sam mentioned gov.uk, most regulation can be accessed on or through Gov.uk and of course through regulator's own, websites.

00:14:46:01 - 00:15:35:17
Unknown
And so however different people have different requirements for using information and content. People access regulation, access rules in different ways. So what commercialisation can do is create different output formats for regulation, so that ultimately you can find the regulation if you need to. But if you want to have that in a particular form, whether these days it's a printed form which wouldn't otherwise be available, perhaps in different digital formats, and particularly when you're looking at understanding that regulation in formats like e-learning formats, where there is work to be done to take that regulation and that regulatory content and turn it into something that people can understand, a commercial route enables that.

00:15:35:17 - 00:16:02:12
Unknown
So it's really about the added value. Now all regulators are being encouraged now to think about growth. How can they regulate for growth. One of the ways that they can encourage growth is to make it easy to comply. And if they can find a third party way of funding activity, that makes it easier to find and understand regulation and therefore to comply with it, then that's kind of a win win for regulators and the people that they're regulating.

00:16:02:14 - 00:16:19:09
Unknown
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And so the information is available. But that it can be it could be put into different formats, and sold at for example, I think of, of a handbook of the rules and a hard copy that could be sold, when the all of the information is available online.

00:16:19:09 - 00:16:55:10
Unknown
But some people might want to have a hard copy and they need to write to, to pay for that. Exactly. And also this this is not the same for. All right guys, it depends on the size of the market and how many people need to understand the regulation. But some regulators who are regulating larger markets and audiences can generate revenue through commercialising those different formats and different ways of understanding the regulation that can help them to improve the way they make regulation available online or through other free routes as well.

00:16:55:12 - 00:17:16:15
Unknown
So, for example, it's possible to put any regulation on a website in a PDF format, but the content tends to be locked up in that PDF. Yeah. If you want to really digitise that content, make it fully accessible to the machines by being machine readable. Make it fully understood and accessible by AI. You tend to have to do more work with that.

00:17:16:15 - 00:17:40:01
Unknown
You need to turn it into data. You need to curate it. So commercialising some of the outputs of regulation can actually create a revenue stream for the regulated to fund that kind of activity as well. Yeah. Okay. Fantastic. Sam. Right. Coming back to. Yeah. So so Richard very eloquently talked about all of the and which, some of these regulations can be packaged in ways that could be commercialised.

00:17:40:03 - 00:18:02:01
Unknown
What's, what's your response to some of these questions. Yeah. And I think I, I agree with, with Richard's perspective on this and, you know, a really kind of established example of where people are adding value to regulations is in, in tax and accounting software, where the, the software people buy the software and it has a lot of those rules and regulations kind of embedded in it.

00:18:02:06 - 00:18:32:21
Unknown
And that's a good example, I think of, of how, third parties can add value to regulations. I would also say that a lot of individual regulators are interested in providing guidance and advice on their regulations, but their regulations aren't necessarily all of the regulations that an individual or an organisation has to navigate to do something. For example, you mentioned the spaceflight regulator at the start to launch, a space mission in the UK.

00:18:32:21 - 00:19:01:11
Unknown
You have to get the space agency, a space flight regulator approval. You have to get Health and Safety Executive approval, there is local fire service, etc. lots of different elements that all have to come together that the what you can do is if you take a more, user centred view of the regulation, you can create much more understanding of that end to end process than going to each individual organisation's guidance.

00:19:01:13 - 00:19:24:12
Unknown
And one of the, things that actually that Deloitte's working on with TSA at the moment is looking at how you can use generative AI to look across the, the regulatory corpus and bring together those journeys in a user centred way. Very interesting. I want to come back to that because obviously, lots of regulators don't have the money to invest in this cutting edge technology.

00:19:24:14 - 00:19:49:03
Unknown
And needs to work with commercial partners, to do that. But but before I do. So I'm just sticking with you for a moment. I discussed briefly with, Richard about the the fact that some of the knowledge that regulators have, was acquired by spending taxpayers money within a statutory framework and that and that although money's tight and some people will be reluctant to, use their assets for profit.

00:19:49:09 - 00:20:15:24
Unknown
Do you have a view on the risks to regulators of that? Yeah, I think I think the perception of regulators selling data that they've collated and exercising their duties is similar to any other part of the public sector doing this. There was the recently the supply review, which informed the creation of the National Health Data Service and that summarised actually interesting some public insights on the commercial use of data, which are quite interesting.

00:20:15:24 - 00:20:37:07
Unknown
There were three things that it talks about. One is that the public thought that there should be a clear benefit to any data that's commercialised. The second is that the, the public sector organisations should benefit if that data leads to significant value, whether that's payment for it or whether that's kind of unlimited access to new knowledge that might be created.

00:20:37:09 - 00:21:07:14
Unknown
They also said that they would have greater trust if it was done in partnership between the commercial organisation and the public sector organisation. Which kind of leads you to some quite interesting, you know, shared, commercialisation rather than just selling the data to a third party. So I think it's important for regulators to understand the actual views of the public and their regulated community to inform how this could be done, not to just assume it's a no go or to assume that it's just fine.

00:21:07:16 - 00:21:32:24
Unknown
I think these kinds of decisions also need to be seen in the context of the current public sector fiscal environment, and in the context of the government's desire to see regulated, deliberately supporting economic growth. One thing to say, though, is that there is HMRC guidance on monetising, so ensuring services are separately accounted for, etc. so you need to make sure that you consider those things if you're going to go down this route that's, really helpful.

00:21:32:24 - 00:21:51:12
Unknown
And of course there's HMRC guidance, on on stuff like this. So that's that set of, that sort of guidance that you've just outlined there. Sam, that's very helpful. And I'm sure, you know, it's it's a good thing for regulators to bear in mind when they're thinking about these questions. Richard, coming back to you then.

00:21:51:12 - 00:22:20:05
Unknown
So, you know, thinking about the user journey, about the, the, constraints that regulators are working within. If regulators are approaching it in that kind of spirit, do you think that they're able to mitigate some of the risks that they may be, having about selling data to one, not selling, monetising their assets to one set of stakeholders, and making it free to another one?

00:22:20:07 - 00:22:56:10
Unknown
Yeah. No, absolutely. I think, I think your previous question to Sam highlighted that the sort of risk you have in mind is partly how things will be perceived and Reputationally will will it be considered that a regulator is, looking to generate profit from an asset and of course, what they're actually doing is if they're generating any revenue at all, it's revenue to reinvest in how they can develop those regulatory assets so that they are easier to find and use for the people who are regulated, for organisations who are regulated.

00:22:56:12 - 00:23:20:21
Unknown
And Sam referred to government guidance around this, which obviously would encourage government organisations not to do things where they make a loss, but that manage and regulate anything that would otherwise be seen as profitability. So it's difficult to be making a return for the Treasury or being reinvested in, activities that would support their that commission, if you like.

00:23:20:23 - 00:24:11:22
Unknown
I think also important to bear in mind that regulation commercialising regulation can reach markets beyond the UK. So whether the UK taxpayer is paying for regulation to be created and to some extent to be disseminated, and that's supplemented by commercial activity, some of that commercial activity can be reaching other jurisdictions, other countries, where the the consideration about whether, you know, people are paying something they've paid for anyway is is less directly relevant because and UK regulation is often seen as best practice, best in class by in other countries, which is a great benefit for kind of UK plc because people overseas and organisations overseas are willing to pay for regulatory products that they

00:24:11:22 - 00:24:41:19
Unknown
think are relevant, even if their own jurisdiction isn't governed by legislation that drives that regulation. And this can also be helped with the growth question that we we mentioned earlier, because if by, by promoting awareness of what's considered to be best practice UK regulation, you encourage more common standards globally, then that's to the advantage of companies that are operating in organisations that are operating internationally or globally.

00:24:41:21 - 00:25:08:05
Unknown
And if that is UK regulation that tends to be one of the go to standard, then that's all good for UK businesses as well. So I think there are a number of virtue circles in there that are, of a benefit to regulators. And that can offset any concerns that regulators are basically charging for something that was paid for anyway, because the Co regulation is available, it's always going to be available, it's always going to be available free.

00:25:08:05 - 00:25:41:17
Unknown
And actually regulators can, as I mentioned, any use, revenue they generate from commercialising the outputs of that regulation to improve the way that it's made available free for everybody. So again, I think there's a as a benefit in both ways of commercialising distribution channels, if you like. Yeah, I think that's a very strong argument. And particularly the international one, where UK taxpayers have paid for something and it's within reason to, to sell it to people outside our jurisdiction who haven't actually paid for it.

00:25:41:18 - 00:26:22:22
Unknown
I know that, 20 years ago, and they weight of the whole delivery, methodology that was developed by, the then government, I know that a lot of, people from the Cabinet Office did go abroad to, talk about, you know, how to deliver public services at that time. So, Sam, I want to come back to you now because I want to pick up on the thing that you mentioned about, AI because, just intuitively, there should be opportunities for regulators to work collaboratively on, new issues like that new technology, and, and draw on commercial expertise, where there could potentially be win wins for both

00:26:22:22 - 00:26:48:07
Unknown
the commercial partner and for the regulator. So just just if you wouldn't mind, then come back to you. Richard, just to elaborate on on that potential, way of commercialising regulatory assets. Yeah. Well, there are, there's a great deal of interest, shall we say, from the hyperscalers to, to invest in AI. And they are, very interested, I think, in the future.

00:26:48:07 - 00:27:24:00
Unknown
So, yeah. So hyperscalers so the Microsofts, their Googles, the people that have the big, the big AI platforms, there's a yeah, there's a big interest from them in making investments to build assets that, increase the use of generative AI and the work that, that we at Deloitte are doing is we're doing that with India, to look across the, the UK regulations and to normalise them and to enable you to then take users user centred views.

00:27:24:00 - 00:27:47:14
Unknown
And then, as Richard said earlier, those tools can then output process maps, user journeys, things like that, that can operate across the whole regulatory spectrum rather than just, within those of a single organisation. Okay. So this is, this is a new, a new, field that's opening up, for potential exploitation and for benefit for regulators, obviously, in the people that they regulate.

00:27:47:14 - 00:28:18:19
Unknown
Right. Richard, have you been saying some of this yourself as well? Yeah. And I think it comes back to the, the, the point we were discussing around the ability for a regulators to generate revenue streams by making regulation available in different formats. One of the ways that that revenue can be reused is in structuring the data that represents regulation, so that I can understand and understand that data, and so that can disambiguate that data.

00:28:18:19 - 00:28:44:09
Unknown
And one of the real problems, with AI and regulation and legislation is understanding the kind of temporal dimension. So, I can find rules, but does it understand whether that rule is enforced today or when it was enforced, or whether it's going to be enforced, and indeed, whether it's going to be enforced in all parts of the jurisdiction or some parts of jurisdiction, for example.

00:28:44:11 - 00:29:19:13
Unknown
So it's really important for regulators to be able to curate that data and structure their data in a way that means that the I use a journey, think of the AI as a user is going to be successful and is going to be unambiguous and share results accurately with people who use that. Yeah. So in theory, I mean, we can see in the drive to reduce regulatory burdens on businesses and other people subject to regulation, that I could be a massive boon to help people navigate the world of regulation and cut out some of their cost.

00:29:19:15 - 00:29:44:09
Unknown
But it will require regulators, as you've just said, to structure their data to make sure it's clean, that it's up to date. And, and it's readable, by AI. Tools of one kind or another. So sandwich, you know, indeed that that there's an understanding of how the AI will use that data and how different AI models will ingest that data.

00:29:44:11 - 00:30:14:15
Unknown
Yes. Not straightforward and costly, I imagine, as well. So, Sam, have you seen people doing this in practice yet? We haven't seen I haven't seen regulators in the UK doing this. Yeah, not I think most regulators in the UK are starting to think about how they can use AI internally to make themselves more efficient. A number of regulators are starting to use kind of desktop tools, like Co-Pilot, for example.

00:30:14:17 - 00:30:36:16
Unknown
I think certainly we work we did done some work with the Institute. It was 18 months ago in Marseille, wasn't it? At the at the conference where we talked about regulators using AI, and there was very much a focus on using it to improve services delivered internally, rather than using it to create services that face the public at this point.

00:30:36:18 - 00:30:57:24
Unknown
Okay. So there's a there's a lot still to be done here as, as always with AI at the moment in this current iteration. So, so lovely tonight, all of this lots of potential for commercialising. But perhaps, regulators need to get their kind of digital house in order first. Make sure they've got the right tech in place before they think too much about exploiting this.

00:30:58:01 - 00:31:19:18
Unknown
So coming back to some of the other things we've talked about, Richard, are there things we've missed? We've talked about data. We've talked about, the regulation themselves and packaging them in ways. But are there other ways in which regulators can commercialise the stuff that they've got access to? There are other ways that that that content can be commercialised.

00:31:19:18 - 00:31:45:14
Unknown
But I think we've touched broadly on most of those. I think for me, one of the most, exciting in terms of the areas that are going to grow around regulation, is that people who are regulated have different ways of understanding regulation these days to perhaps what I grew up, maybe what you did, it was traditional that regulation would be in a book, it would be in a set of rules.

00:31:45:14 - 00:32:19:11
Unknown
And now people don't want to have time to engage with that kind of format. And early digitisation was essentially okay, rich content, but online now you have tools like e-learning solutions that help people to understand regulation in an immersive way, in an e-learning environment, sometimes in bite sized chunks. That's often a much more direct way to reach people who need to understand regulation and to make sure that they really understand it, rather than they just know where to look for it.

00:32:19:11 - 00:32:42:11
Unknown
So I think that's another area where commercialisation is really essential, because you're creating user centred products for user needs, and most regulators will need to work with third parties to do that, because there's an investment in creating it. And, you know, like many things, the commercial model, ensures that, you know, the market works out where the demand is, who needs it.

00:32:42:11 - 00:33:10:15
Unknown
And who's able to pay for it. Fantastic. Okay. So, we've heard that, there's potential for regulators to commercialise. They'll need to think about it within the guidance that, that you mentioned some earlier on, including the Treasury's, guidance. You both talked about, user centred approaches, and thinking about what's, what's right for the people that your own regulator is, is focusing on.

00:33:10:17 - 00:33:31:24
Unknown
So, I'll come to you both. I finally, for tips that you might give to regulators, those people listening to this podcast who are thinking about how to approach commercialisation of their assets in their own regulator. So so, Timothy, Richard, if you were going to give some tips to people, what would you say in a nutshell, that they should do?

00:33:31:24 - 00:34:06:11
Unknown
First, I'd say think about, what what regulatory assets you actually hold. Lots of regulators probably aren't even thinking about whether they own content assets. The moment they create regulation, they often don't think of it as an asset, as content, as a published asset, perhaps. So think about that and think about whether that content is in a format that firstly is accessible, fits online, because there are lots of rules and guidelines around that we often find regulators need help with.

00:34:06:13 - 00:34:28:14
Unknown
But also, how easy is it for the people you regulating, the organisations you regulating to to find and to understand and to use. And then also think about who your users are, because you're going to be thinking about people who can be thinking about organisations. But increasingly now users are going to be machines and AI, as we've just been talking about.

00:34:28:16 - 00:34:51:10
Unknown
So think about where you are on that journey and then potentially where you might be able to find help, collaboration. And if that's in a commercial environment, then you may well find that there's a way to monetise some of what you're doing in order to fund the challenges that you face. That's really great advice. Thank you very much, Sam.

00:34:51:14 - 00:35:12:19
Unknown
What would you say? I think I'd echo, some of Richard's thoughts there, but I think even discussing what the assets and knowledge are within the regulated is important, even if you don't monetise it. So look at how national highways have changed the way they think about how they make decisions based on their understanding of the value of, of their assets.

00:35:12:21 - 00:35:41:19
Unknown
For me, it's also listening to what others are doing, thinking, how could I apply that to my organisation? So I think it's some it's just keeping a real open mind about this. That's fantastic. Well, I know that this is a topic that, that is not discussed in lots of regulators. Clearly, it should be, even if, as you've just said, that, the next step towards monetisation doesn't, doesn't happen, but, people just understand what they've got with the assets that they've got.

00:35:41:19 - 00:36:13:11
Unknown
So, I'm very grateful to you both, very expert, speakers, Samuel from Deloitte and Richard South from Tse for the fascinating discussion. That was covered a lot of ground. It's not easy, but I think important. And certainly, as we said at the beginning, in a tight fiscal environment. So, let's, let's have a think about that, thinking about economic growth, thinking about how to do more with less, all important questions that we need to think about.

00:36:13:11 - 00:36:43:06
Unknown
I'm very grateful to you both again. Thanks also to our sound engineer, Neil Baumann from Baumann Audio Production. And thanks to those of you who are listening. Please pass it on to others who you think might be interested in commercialising regulation to, and to into future episodes of the regulation podcast with me, mostly about on topics of interest to regulators as well material events training on the Institute of Regulations website two, which is IO regulation.com.

00:36:43:12 - 00:37:00:06
Unknown
Thanks very much and goodbye.