Episode 37: How to Chair a Regulator

We’re pleased to look back on International Women’s Day by spotlighting two outstanding women Chairs in our latest podcast episode: Jo Clift and Helen Phillips. In this conversation, Institute Chair Marcial Boo explores what it takes to lead a regulatory body, drawing on Jo’s experience at the General Osteopathic Council and Helen’s leadership of both the General Dental Council and the Chartered Insurance Institute. 

The podcast guests explain that, for them, good regulation is proportionate, risk‑based, and consistent, but that really effective regulation also involves fostering high professional pride and standards, which can often protect the public more than rules alone, and clear communication with all stakeholders. The chairs of regulators have four key responsibilities:

• Strategy, so there is a shared understanding of outcomes, not just activities.  
• Scrutiny, so there is oversight of key indicators, but without Boards drowning in detail.  
• Stakeholders, to bring a real focus on the regulated community and those they serve.
• Culture, with Boards modelling the regulator's values.

Both speakers recognise the importance of trust, which is a relational, not procedural, quality. To build trust, Chairs, Boards and executives must invest time in getting to know each other, with clear roles and boundaries. High levels of trust between executives and non-executives leads to more efficient and effective performance overall.

In sum, good regulator chairs need a blend of strategic leadership, relationship building and an understanding of public accountability. Regulator chairs need to accept a degree of public exposure too, with political and media scrutiny for difficult decisions, and an ability to have calm, adult-to-adult dialogues with those being regulated, as well as with ministers and members of the public. 

Keywords: regulatory leadership, chairing a regulator, board governance, strategic leadership, public accountability, executive–non‑executive relationships, board culture, organisational values

Transcript

01:11.19
Marcial
Welcome to the Regulation Podcast from the Institute of Regulation. My name is Marcial Boo, Chair of the Institute and a regulator myself. This month's podcast asks, "How do you chair a regulator?'' Non-executives play a crucial role in regulators' leading strategy, making appointments and taking responsibility for regulatory decisions. What are the particular challenges faced by regulators, non-executives and chairs?

01:38.26
Marcial
How can they play these roles effectively? And what should executive staff in regulators do to work effectively with their chairs and boards? We have two very experienced speakers to give us answers.

01:51.67
Marcial
Joe Clift is chair of the General Osteopathic Council and a non-executive on the board of the VETS regulator, RCVS. Jo was previously on the board of the government's internal audit agency and a senior civil servant in the Cabinet Office in Downing Street. And she set up the Centre for Public Appointments and has worked to improve the calibre of non-executives on public boards, including by conducting board effectiveness reviews. So lots of relevant experience. Thank you for joining us. Welcome.

02:20.25
Jo Clift
Hello.

02:21.85
Marcial
Good to have you. And also with us is Helen Phillips, the chair of the General Dental Council and of the Chartered Insurance Institute and previously chair of the Legal Services Board, the oversight regulator of the legal profession. Helen is also on the board of the Gambling Commission it was previously on Social Work England's board. And before that, Helen was the founding chief executive of Natural England, alongside many other roles. It's an impressive regulatory career. Welcome, Helen.

02:47.99
hele
Thank you, Marcel. Hello, Joe.

02:50.30
Jo Clift
Hi.

02:51.22
Marcial
Now, thanks again, both of you. So, before I ask you about chairing regulators, can I first find out how you got to where you are? Maybe something about the specific regulators that you chair now, too.

03:02.10
Marcial
What led you to become the chair of a regulatory body, and why these ones in particular? Joe, can I come to you first?

03:09.72
Jo Clift
Yeah, sure. So my main career was in the civil service, mainly in central government, often belonging to the Cabinet Office and looking at how we change the way departments work across the whole of Whitehall.

03:23.80
Jo Clift
I've always enjoyed board work, committee work. So when I left government, I started being a non-executive director. And one of the roles I had was being on the board of the membership organisation of the osteopaths. And that led me to apply for the chair role.

03:44.82
Jo Clift
So I've had sort of six or seven different board roles, and I run what we call board effectiveness reviews. So I go into the boards, often of regulators, actually, and do a review of how their board is operating.

03:58.12
Jo Clift
So the Osteopaths' regulator is a profession that's been regulated for about 30 years. We have just over 5,000 registrants, and obviously, we're protecting the public. We're setting professional standards for osteopaths. checking the quality of the education, running the fitness to practice regime. And we sit across all four nations' students in the UK.

04:21.62
Marcial
Okay, well, that's a great background in the kind of issues that chairs will face, obviously, both from your previous executive experience and now with the osteopaths. Helen, as I mentioned earlier, you've done various non-executive roles.

04:40.54
Marcial
Was that something that you had always wanted to do? And tell us something about the General Dental Council.

05:41.64
Marcial
That's okay. All right, cool. Okay. And Helen, you've done various non-executive roles as well. Was that something that you had long wanted to do? and tell us something about the General Dental Council, which is where you are now.

05:55.58
hele
And absolutely not something I'd even thought about, if I'm honest. I was very busy and full on in an executive role when I got approached about chairing my local hospital.

06:08.98
hele
And I was in my late 40s, and I remember thinking, that'd be a really interesting thing to do. And I actually said to the headhunters, you might like to ring me back in 10 years. Yeah. So one thing led to another, and I went to have chats and explore the opportunity and I thought I really would love to do that. So I've done exclusively non-executive work now for the best part of 12 years.

06:33.91
hele
And as you say, I'm at the GDC now. I'm not long at the GDC. I'm about six months into that role. And the GDC is a frontline healthcare regulator. So I've had some experience of that in the past because I was on the founding board of Social Work England, I think, as you mentioned.

06:49.98
hele
But the thing that has helped me, I think, a bit in various chair roles is the kind of breadth of regulation, because, I mean, in my youth, I started out working on heavy metal pollution food chains and went from there to the National Rivers Authority and the Environment Agency. So I started it as an environmental regulator.

07:12.76
hele
Then I became a legal services sector regulator. Then I did some healthcare regulation. I'm also currently a gambling commissioner, where you're kind of getting a different approach to the sector. So they're all kind of interesting in that you get to see the kind of full gamut of regulatory levers, yeah, being applied to different conundrums in different sectors.

07:36.44
Marcial
Yes.

07:36.54
hele
and which is very satisfying because there is a real art to regulation. And, you know, I've been lucky enough over the years to work with some people who are very expert at it. And so it's, ah, yeah, it's been great.

07:50.28
Marcial
It's fantastic. Well, the Institute of Regulation has about 80 corporate members spanning ah the full range, I think, of economic regulation, professional regulation and regulation of public services as well. So both of you collectively, I'm sure, will have a lot to bring to this conversation. So let me kind of get straight into the regulatory piece and ask you what you think good regulation looks like. So before we move on to talk about your roles as chairs, just...

08:19.67
Marcial
In a nutshell, Helen, let me stick with you for a moment. What does good regulation look like to you?

08:26.77
hele
Well, I think you have to say all the words. Anybody who would expect you to say an answer to that question, which is proportionate and modern and risk-based and consistent and all of those good things that we all know regulation is meant to be.

08:40.02
hele
For me, there's something a bit more esoteric, actually, that sits behind that. And it's come to me very much more forcibly since I've started chairing the Chartered Insurance Institute with Chartered

08:55.78
hele
It's a professional standards body; the regulator is the FCA. And we all talk about, don't we, where regulatory minima meet professional standards and good practice. And you kind of appreciate that that is a thing. But when you have the joy and pleasure of seeing both things go on at the same time, it reinforces for me that the pride professionals take in their own brand and the quality of the

09:27.06
heleThe 
service they give to clients or patients is a much bigger protection than any amount of regulation will ever be able to afford. So I think regulation, particularly professional standards regulation, needs to be properly regulated.

09:44.15
hele
and in the public interest through and with the professionals rather than doing things, regulatory things onto professionals, hoping that is going to add up to public trust and confidence. And that might sound a bit semantic and subtle, but I really, really believe that.

10:01.20
Marcial
It's fascinating. And for those people who regulate professionals who have ah that ethos, that kind of professional ethic, I'm sure that will resonate harder when I regulate and MPs. But it will depend on the profession. So Joe, coming to you, because obviously, you've got experience of professional regulation yourself now, but also more broadly, what does good regulation look like from your point of view?

10:24.70
Jo Clift
Well, I agree with everything that was said, but I think you have to start from the position that you really want to run a sort of highly effective organisation and run really excellent fitness to practice processes. So you have to get all the kinds of housekeeping right.

10:40.86
Jo Clift
What I'm thinking is that often regulators are very misunderstood and feel very misunderstood by some of their stakeholder groups. So one of the things that I think really excellent regulation involves is really, really clear communication and dialogue with stakeholders. So, for example, in our legislation, we're not allowed to promote osteopathy.

11:08.76
Jo Clift
Many of our registrants feel that we should be doing that and in fact that's done by the institute not by the regulator so you need to be really clear with everybody what you're trying to do for them whether that's the public or the registrant or your stakeholder organizations and spend time you know in the room having a really good dialogue and accepting that you won't always agree with each other

11:37.24
Marcial
Okay, well, some important words there. Helen, you mentioned all of the words that we know: proportionate, fair, risk-based, and Joe, you picked out the importance of communications engaging with stakeholders. So, coming on to your roles as chairs specifically,

11:54.87
hele
Just before we do, my second, Jo, has prompted another thought, if I can just add it very quickly.

11:56.28
Marcial
Yes, go for it, of course.

12:00.31
hele
And it's related to strategy. It's so important, I think, that regulators don't have strategies that say we're going to do X of this period you know we will have spent you know zed and all of those things are of course very important and need to be diligently executed but unless and until you put yourself through the pain and believe you me it is pain of describing the outcomes all that activity is going to add up to not just from the perspective of you as the regulatory body but from the perspective of those you work with and serve whether it's registrant or whether it's patients or whether it's people who can't get access to services and I think you know and it plays into I think what you're going to come on to myself about the chair role I think that's really an important thing to do

12:52.79
Marcial
Well, it absolutely does, because as chairs, part of your role, obviously, is to set the direction for the organisation and to kind of keep people's sights raised to those outcomes that you've just described. So this is not just a regulatory issue, but it's the role that you have in chairing any public body or indeed a private commercial enterprise. So how do you approach those kinds of strategic issues and the kind of things that all chairs need to be thinking about, good governance, financial management, and appointments? What's your approach to that? Helen, let me ah stick with you, and then I'll come to you, Joe.

13:29.56
hele
Well, if I'm just to kind of pick up where I left off, I suppose, I always think the role of the board is fourfold. It's about strategy. It's about scrutiny. It's about stakeholders. And it's about setting the tone and culture of the organisation.

13:44.59
hele
So, I just said a little bit about what I think is really important in the strategy process. And I think, you know, you don't want to have a group of people on a board who are like the Stepford Wives. You know, they're all reciting the strategy. But I do think you need a shared vocabulary about where it is we're taking the organisation and what good looks like.

14:06.20
hele
And then the scrutiny bit for me is not allowing yourself to be drowned in exactly the same performance pack that the executives are in the middle of. You know, you need all of that taken up at least two levels about what the small number of key outcomes that the board is really going to have stewardship of. And of course, unless and until you do that, which is hard again,

14:31.03
hele
Your whole approach to risk can become a common nightmare because you're on page 45 of the risk register, at which point you've kind of lost the will to live. So, you know, if you have a small number of strategic priorities you're measuring, you then have a relatively small number, hopefully, of risks that are mapping directly onto those.

14:52.09
hele
And then if that's all working well, and I appreciate a huge amount of work goes into this by our governance colleagues and making all of that work well, you know, it's easy for us to describe there's a huge amount of work that goes into it and making, you know, less is more. But it also, I think, helps you think more particularly about just your stakeholders. And Joe's already talked about the importance of stakeholders. But, you know, I'm a huge believer in the customer in the room.

15:19.16
hele
And I don't mean, you know, somebody giving a report on the customer in the room. I mean, the actual customer in the room.

15:25.64
Marcial
Hmm.

15:25.88
hele
And so I think the more of that you can do, the more it grounds and roots conversations in the boardroom. And find the final thing is about culture. You know, at the end of the day, the board is accountable for making sure that there is a clear set of values in place that the heavy lifting and that's often done by not only by the executive, but by hopefully everybody in the organisation having a say in shaping those. But it's so important that the board role models them.

15:53.56
hele
And, you know, each value in an organisation can have a different but consistent expression depending on what part of the organisation you're in. And boards do need to spend a bit of time thinking about if our colleagues were to look in on us, how would they know we too are living these values?

16:12.11
Marcial
Goodness me. Well, there's a massive amount there. Joe, do you want to just pick up on some of that and also just say from your perspective, including the reviews of board governance that you've done, what are those kinds of non-executive roles that you think boards ought to be leading?

16:28.52
Jo Clift
Well, you've both covered a lot of ground there that I had written down here. However... When we go in and do the board reviews, I'm looking at it from three different angles. So strategy, the processes and performance management are the second one, and then the culture and the tone are the third one. So why strategy is essential is because everybody has to have a shared view of the direction of the organisation. And often, if you go in and do board reviews, you might hear, actually, from individual NEDs that they have a different perception of the direction and priorities of the organisation. So you've already got ah an issue there. So the strategy has to be, what's our destination?

17:17.62
Jo Clift
And then the board has the key role in understanding whether we are on the right track to meet that destination. Have we taken a wrong turn? Have we got enough money?

17:29.49
Jo Clift
What's going on? Which is where the sort of medium-term planning and horizon scanning comes in, and the performance management. And Helen's absolutely right that if you're drowning in the detail of the risk register or if you're drowning in the detail of the ah business plan,

17:49.75
Jo Clift
Or the dashboards, it's really hard for the NEDs to see whether the organisation is actually progressing against the strategic objectives. So often when we're working with boards, we're trying to help them get what we call a median level of KPIs. It might be sort of eight KPIs that just allow the board to keep a sort of temperature check on where things are going.

18:13.40
Jo Clift
But of course, when you boil all of that down, it comes down to people and tone and relationships and how you work together.

18:23.93
Jo Clift
And I mean, we're going to talk about the executive a bit later on, but the sort of classic trap is that the executive feels that the board are interfering, and the board feel that the executive isn't giving them enough information. So you've got to try and keep the ship balanced across both of those directions, really.

18:45.06
Marcial
Goodness, there's a lot of commonality. Helen, do you want to just come back on some of that?

18:48.32
hele
I'd just love to pick up on Jo's last point about the executive because, you know, boards can sometimes be victims of their own requests because if they're not feeling assured about it, oh, can we have this? Can we see that? And more of the other. And you think to yourself, oh, no, no.

19:07.00
hele
And I think when there are high levels of trust between the executive and the board members, the executive colleagues are much better at asking why. Why would you like to see that?

19:18.97
hele
What is it that's really bothering you? What is it that she wants you to know? What is it that you would need to know in order to feel assured, rather than saying, yes, of course, we go away and get you 10 more pages, because it kind of gives you a race into a rabbit hole. But, you know, executive colleagues don't always feel comfortable doing that, which goes back to Jo's point, doesn't it, about having the right tone that then promotes the right sort of conversation so that it is a, you know, a safe space to look together at tricky issues.

19:51.35
Marcial
And I know we're going to come back to some of this perhaps, but just on this question of trust, because it is such a crucial thing. You know, the roles are different, non-exec ande roles and and yet you're all trying to push in the same direction. So how do you make sure that, although the non-executives come in once every couple of months to do the scrutiny and oversight and the strategy setting, that you can build that trust with those people who are working five days a week, say, in the organisation?

20:20.87
Marcial
Helen, do you want to kick off? And then, sorry, well, Joe,

20:25.37
Jo Clift
Well, I feel as though I've got a book in me on this one. So I think you have to get to know each other and you have to get to know each other as people. So the NED group has to get to know each other and how they want to work together. But the Neds and the executive, the team, and the senior team have to get to know each other as well. And there are various you know ways of doing that.

20:48.18
Jo Clift
And then it's all about the quality of the dialogue and the quality of the listening. And going back to where we were with strategy, the clarity about where everybody's heading and what the priorities are. It's terrible if you're an executive and you feel that the priorities are moving all the time.

21:06.94
Jo Clift
So all of these sorts of bits of the jigsaw fit together, but when you boil down the trust issue, it's all about relationships, openness, transparency, and a sort of shared endeavour.

21:25.08
Jo Clift
And trust comes and goes on a board. It's not always a constant; it's kind of variable.

21:32.94
Marcial
Helen, any tips that you've got to help build tu trust

21:37.34
hele
I really, Jo's first point about getting to know each other really resonates with me. And on a number of my boards, we have dinner together the night before the board meeting. And of course, in the public sector, you really can't do that. We all have to, you know, bring our sandwiches and our brown paper bag or whatever it is to the actual meeting, let alone meeting the night before. But I think if you can do that, it can sometimes be a relatively small investment for a huge payback.

22:05.04
hele
And it's also a nice environment in which to invite others, you know. So if you want a perspective from a stakeholder about something you're going to be wrestling with the next day, that can work well. But I appreciate that it can't work in all contexts because of, you know, various constraints and limitations.

22:22.13
hele
I think the only other thing I'd add really is about role definition. And I think a lot of the time when people are having incursions into each other's space in either direction, you know, with the NEDs going across the line into an executive space or executives feeling overly, overly, I don't know, scrutinised or anxious, is sometimes actually about lack of definition about what the responsibilities of the, of the of the two roles on the board are

22:59.80
hele
and often if you think, God, this is all a bit peculiar, if you spend kind of a day together as soon as you recognise or half a day sometimes only takes a couple of hours saying you know what are respective roles and what does that mean for the delegations and do you understand as executives why the board might be feeling a bit exposed because their accountability is actually sit here for this decision whereas executives are really being diligent but they're anxious feeling all the accountability sits with them

23:31.51
hele
And I think sometimes when you lift some of that sense of them being solely responsible or accountable for this into the sense that actually, in a public facing sense you know, this is a decision where the mind of the organization i.e the the board is going to be more publicly scrutinised, and accountable it kind of helps everybody kind of work better together.

23:59.06
hele
You know, it's easy to overlook doing that. And particularly if you sit on a number of boards, you think, oh, we did that recently. You think, well, actually, no, we didn't do that recently here. Yeah. So it is important to keep that fresh

24:11.22
Marcial
Yes. Great. Well, those are some really practical tips there. And I'm going to come now specifically to your role chairing regulators, because some of what we've discussed now is relevant to all ah boards of public bodies and other organisations. But in terms of regulatory boards, obviously, as a regulator, you're independent to a degree from politicians and government, but also accountable to them.

24:40.31
Marcial
And you've, as a regulator, got complex risks to manage, making judgments where some people may not agree with the decision, you're balancing harms, imposing burdens. And also as chairs, you are the public face of the regulator, sometimes in the media and certainly to Parliament. So you're quite exposed.

25:02.01
Marcial
What are the skills that you need as a regulator chair? Joe, let me come to you first.

25:09.66
Jo Clift
I actually don't think this is that complicated. I could be under-oversimplifying. But I think it just takes you back to the clarity of the role.

25:22.65
Jo Clift
So, we have a very clear role with our profession about what we're responsible for and the steps that we take to enable that at the General Osteopathic Council. A lot of the scrutiny in our profession is much wider than our role, so it actually sort of crosses our territory.

25:46.22
Jo Clift
You just have to be really careful, first of all, about what your role is.

25:48.44
Marcial
yeah

25:52.92
Jo Clift
And know, there's a sort of realpolitik here. If you are the chair of a regulator, you may have a ah you know a medium or high level of exposure. And I think that that just goes with the territory. And most of us have worked with you, ministers, senior stakeholders, and parliamentarians in the past. And generally speaking, what you need if something's stressed or going wrong is just to have a dialogue. You know, you don't get into a room and say, well, why did you do this? And why did you do that? What's what's what's going on? You just have a dialogue. Everybody's a grown-up.

26:31.16
Jo Clift
So I actually think it's. slightly more straightforward than your question implies. I mean, I've just come back from a conference in Austria where all the European osteopaths were getting together, and we were looking at common issues that we can work together on. Obviously, that's got more complicated since we left the EU.

26:53.50
Jo Clift
And if I were chair of the General Medical Council, I mean, clearly I'd be worrying about the media probably every day and every night. So it does depend on your role.

27:05.37
Jo Clift
But actually, I kind of think that's what they're paying you for when you're a chair. They're paying you to sort of step up if something goes wrong. And the early part of my career was in communications and ministerial communications. So I actually quit.

27:23.99
Jo Clift
Enjoy that part of the role.

27:26.50
Marcial
Good, good. Well, it sounds ah that sounds very straightforward then. Helen, from your point of view, chairing a regulator, are there some specific things that you think are necessary for those roles?

27:43.58
hele
I would endorse everything Jo said about you know handling the kind of top of the shop and the ministerial relationships. So the additional thing I draw out, I think, is about tough decision-making. Regulators often have to make tough decisions or finely balanced decisions, sensitive decisions, or decisions with great repercussions for one or more parties.

28:06.52
hele
And I think the kind of best thing in your armoury around all of that is transparency. You know, to have... absolutely the bare bare minimal in any sort of private session of the board the council to keep as much as you possibly can in in public view to you know to do your agonizing out loud yeah it it can be uncomfortable and it's particularly uncomfortable if you haven't exercised that muscle for a while but you know i think you know

28:44.90
hele
Stakeholders and the public are very, very grown-up if you treat them in a very grown-up way. Yeah, and they understand the subtleties and the nuances. And, you know, even if people are not getting the answer to the decision they want, they want to know that it has been thoroughly examined and properly taken. And so I think that's a really important thing for an important way for boards to act

29:17.98
Marcial
Well, I think that's fantastic advice, I have to say, to treat people with respect and as adults, including those whom you regulate, as well as in the media. Obviously, there are lots of adults out there all over the place, but there are some people who will play games. And so, you know, you also need to prepare yourself.

29:38.52
Marcial
For those eventualities, I'm sure. I've heard you both talk about the importance of relationships, building those relationships with the executive, with the senior stakeholders, with politicians, obviously, as well. The importance of ah bringing the team together, whether that's the non-executives or the executives and the non-executives. Having people in the room, you've both said the importance of listening to those stakeholders too.

30:11.32
Marcial
And before we end, I just want you to maybe share any particular tips that you have for executives, because most of the people that we have in the Institute are executive members of regulators, and you know, working in various functions, working with boards, with chairs. So what advice would you give to people in the midst of their regulatory career when they want to work with chairs and boards? Let me start again with you, Helen, and Joe. I'll end with you if that's okay.

30:49.91
hele
and to to answer a question with a question because we are in a fortunate position we work in great regulatory bodies with lots of people with lots of knowledge you can answer questions but sometimes the greater art is in defining the question or identifying the issue fully and properly and i think executives and I know I certainly feel the board you know you must have an answer oh must have an answer and and that's to completely overlook the value and that a chair will put on you helping them tease out the question yeah so i think it's really important be as comfortable to be you know collectively curious with the chair and the board

31:46.46
Marcial
Fantastic. Well, that's, again, an invitation for good teamwork, isn't it? You know, to help work out answers collectively. Because the kinds of challenges regulators face are complex sometimes, as you say, balanced decisions need to be made.

32:01.53
Marcial
Joe, from your point of view, what advice would you give to people?

32:06.23
Jo Clift
So it's sort of similar but related. So I think it's about helping the board understand the actual question that's on the table. So when you're very close to a particular topic, it's very easy to feel that you need to give a lot of information to board members.

32:26.87
Jo Clift
and not necessarily understand that you need to walk them through and what's the history of the issue, what's the real question that they need to start to address.

32:38.14
Jo Clift
and guide them through that process with the papers that you're writing, and try to imagine what it's like being in their shoes. They're only reading your papers every few weeks. They're not dealing with the topic every day like you are. So try and write it from the perspective of a non-specialist, as if you're trying to explain it to you know your friend in the pub or whatever.

33:04.60
Jo Clift
And this is a really interesting way of looking at the relationships because executives can often feel frustrated by boards not being experts in the detail, but that's where the balance is.

33:19.64
Jo Clift
And actually, that's where the good marriage of executive and non-executive skills comes together. But we really need as much clarity of the issue as possible in order to have a really good discussion at the board table.

33:36.95
Marcial
Fantastic. Well, some great tips from both of you. Amazing experience that you've both got. And I very much hope that those listening to this podcast can kind of bear all of that in mind when they're working with boards. It's really, really important that there's a good relationship between non-executives and executives. Obviously, we're all trying to push in the same direction in tricky territory sometimes and have complementary roles. I'm very grateful to you both and wish you both well, and your regulators too.

34:06.97
Marcial
Thank you, Joe Clift, from the General Osteopathic Council and Helen Phillips of the General Dental Council, both of you, with many other roles besides. Thank you also to our sound engineer, Neil Bowerman of Bowerman Audio Productions. And as I say, I hope those of you listening have found the discussion interesting. Do let your colleagues know, especially if those colleagues work with boards and non-executives. We're going to discuss more issues of interest in future podcasts as material and events on the Institute of Regulation's website, ioregulation.org.

34:39.70
Marcial
And that's it from this regulation podcast with me, Marcia Albu. Good luck with your own regulatory challenges, and do stay in touch to help UK regulation become the best it can. Goodbye.