Money scripts lie | Dee Zimmerman | Growing Money with Sean Trace

I sat down with financial relationship and wealth building coach Dee Zimmerman to get into something nobody talks about honestly - why couples can't seem to get on the same page about money, and what it actually takes to fix it. 

Dee breaks down how we each carry these deeply ingrained money scripts from childhood that quietly drive every financial decision we make, and how when two people with completely different scripts try to build a life together, things get complicated fast. We talk about the difference between being an expressive spender and a protective saver, why emotional safety in a relationship has to come before any real money conversation can happen, and how setting financial boundaries with yourself, your partner, and the outside world is the missing piece most couples never consider.If you and your partner keep hitting the same financial walls, this one is going to hit close to home.

What is one money habit or belief you brought into your relationship that you did not even realize was causing tension, and did you ever figure out where it came from?

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Like we start with the money scripts, right? And try to understand what did we hear about money growing up? What stuck with us? What are we still walking around with? You know, what messages? And it gives us so much understanding. But then what you just moved into now is like the dreams. You've got to be able to talk about what your dreams are without judgment. And that's the tough part. Like I've been working, it just happened with a client. Um, the dream conversation didn't go so well. So I said, Well, what what would what did it sound like? You know, you know, like what did you share? What did you, how did you respond? And I'm like, oh yeah, probably if I had shared that, but I got that response and I was kind of careful about it. But I said, can I be really honest with you here? Um, I would have felt dismissed and kind of sad too. So why don't you do that dream conversation again? And here's how it can be. And it has to be without judgment, it has to just be with curiosity in stri instead of going into, you know, and this is speaking, Sean, to your shared goals. You've got to talk about your dreams to be able to come up and be aligned with shared goals. But the way to get there can be difficult for people, the path to get to those shared goals, because if you're talking about those, you might all you might jump in with evaluation. Oh, well, we can't do that. No, that's not practical. But we could do this over here. That's not what the conversation is about. It's about just talking about and being curious about your partner and saying, you know, and what else? And where would you like to have that happen? And why is that important to you? And that's it. That's it.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

All right, welcome everybody back to the Grand Money with Sean Trace uh podcast. I am your host today, and I have an awesome return guest uh with me today. Uh, can you tell people who you are and a little bit about what you do?

SPEAKER_03 2:07

Yeah, I'd be happy to, and thank you, Sean, for having me back on again. Um, it's been a while, and so I'm looking forward to it. Yeah, I'm a financial um relationship and wealth building coach. And so my focus, I'm a financial coach, but my focus is on working with couples and helping them learn to talk about money in more healthy ways and build their partnership because that absolutely stands in the way of financial peace. And it stands in the way of being able to build their wealth and grow their future because, you know, they get into patterns of avoiding conversations and it's stressful and they can't make decisions and and then it can impact their marriage. And so, yeah, over the time of coaching, I have just realized that I really, really love working with couples and diving in and helping those that are really having trouble with that.

SPEAKER_00 3:03

I love that. You know, one of the things I think that um when you talk about relationships and and couples specifically, um we have these ideas that people get married and then they're on the same page. But one of the things that I I realized very quickly when I got married is that very rarely are my wife and I automatically on the same page. We can get there.

SPEAKER_02 3:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

We can get there. Good. But it takes time, and it takes time because you know, you have to sit there and the way we were raised, thinking and talking about money, is very different, you know. And and I think that that's something that is you you can't underestimate. Like you had asked me before the podcast, you're just like, Sean, you got to speak to all these really interesting people on the street.

SPEAKER_03 3:56

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

And I have, but the one of the cool things is like I noticed that it doesn't matter if a person's a CFB, a CPA, or CEC, whatever, or they're just this or that. They're all saying the same thing. Everyone's talking about these underlying money principles. And like, and one of the big things is like, and I love some of my favorite people have been. I had this one doctor of money psychology come on, and he was talking about our money scripts. Like all of us have these different things that we were taught since we were a kid, and and and the way that your relationship with money shows up that you don't think about. And but when you get into a relationship, let me let's make it more simple.

SPEAKER_03 4:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:46

Dog people. Are you a dog person? Okay, yeah, or cat person, right? Dog person, cat person, or not a pet person. Now, it doesn't really matter. Any of those three are fun. You can be no pets, you can be a dog person, you can be a cat person. But when you get into a marriage and you're different from your spouse, you're a dog person, they're a cat person, or they're a dog person, and you don't like animals. Suddenly something that seemed very small becomes really, really big because it is a very underlying difference. And like our relationship with money is just as intricate as whether you're a dog or cat person.

SPEAKER_03 5:28

Yeah, I love the, I love the uh, yeah, the example, the very simple example. Um, but I will add that then with money, it it's much more critical.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

100%.

SPEAKER_03 5:40

About whether we're deciding about whether a dog or a cat. So it's the same underlying, you know, are you a dog or cat person? Are you a um i i I have a couple of terms, expressive spender or or a protective saver. You know, generally people fall into two of those categories. And then when they're under stress, then there's other types of kind of like money types or personalities that show up within those. Um but, you know, so that's kind of like the dog and the cat. But it there's so much more at stake when we're talking about money. And it's so it can impact the relationship so much more.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

It can build you up or it can tear you down. And I I think that this is something that's really interesting that people don't realize is that those early those early things that you grow up with, and they still show up, but you are not always aware to them. Just like if you have subconscious fears, you know. But I want to ask about your experience because specifically, I I want to learn from what you went through. Like when you and your partner first started talking about money, what part of it's what part of it felt easy and what part of it felt uncomfortable?

SPEAKER_03 6:56

Yeah. Um, you know, I have to admit that my our husband and my husband and I have gotten along pretty well with money, but we still have some rocky spots. And when we first got together, um, he had some credit card debt. I did not. So we had to talk through that. Um, and we had to take care of that. Um, but I would say that he is um, you know, he's a protective saver. I would say he just leans towards saving. And because I will go back and forth, I'm kind of like under stress, I might spend. So I sort of uh rock back and forth between spender and saver. And um, and so um I think that more in the beginning, and I don't do this anymore, but I would find myself hiding. Yeah. If I would spend, I would find myself not really wanting to. I'd walk in, walk in the house with the bags of clothes and just kind of like try to get them to the closet before they'd be seen. And um, so yeah, you're in a partnership and you're working on money together and um you don't want to have any secrets. You want to have transparency, but that can be hard. Uh-huh. You're afraid of being um, I think the fear there is that uh you will be criticized. Um and you're already maybe feel a little guilty, and you sure don't want that to be brought out into the open. Um and uh so but um what I have seen mostly with I have seen uh with my clients lots of lots of struggle um coming together in a marriage. Do we share our finances? Do we, you know, or do we keep our separate accounts? Um, you know, this means so much to me to spend time on going out with family and blowing$800 at a restaurant with extended family. Um, and this is why, because I'm making connection and relationships are are important to me. That's a money script, right? And then your husband, you know, maybe the the spouse is like, I yeah, no, I mean family's important, but no, I'm not gonna spend money that way. And um, you know, that's gonna put us in peril. So yeah, conflicts like that, definitely definitely there are um money scripts underneath that. And there are reasons why we feel that way because of what it could be. I always say there's it's both nature and nurture, you know, there might be a like a natural personality tendency towards something, but then there's also the nurture. What did you hear? What kind of messages did you hear growing up? And we always start in our conversations talking about those money scripts, Sean. You know, always, always digging those up because, like you said, you've talked to so many people, so many financial experts, and that's just sort of like an underlying theme.

SPEAKER_00 10:08

They all they all talk about it. Like, you know, you have these underlying things that are that are there, and you just don't always realize it until you start uncovering the stuff that's been covering everything. You know, and it's like one of the things too is like when when people this is something like that is culturally different too, like mine, yours, ours, you know. I I have um I love my father-in-law, but he he kind of views all of the motorbikes in our house as collective. And I'm like very much like when I have my own vehicle, that's my vehicle, you know? And so it's ours, ours, ours. And that's a collective culture type of a thing. And when I used to talk to my wife about that early in our marriage, I was like, it would, that would, that would be, it would be tough for me because you know, her culture is a much more communal culture, everything's shared. And then and I was like, but that's really challenging when there are family members that are not being conscious of their spending. Yeah, you know, and so it caused stress. And we had to get to the place of finding out how we could stand together and didn't mean we always agreed. But one of the things that I think that was most important for my marriage and our our approach to finance, and we don't have it all together, we are working on fixing it and getting it in the right direction, but was having a common goal because we could figure out the little things if we had a goal that we were tracking towards. You know, it it's like I both of us say we want to make it to that destination. We want to travel to San Francisco from where we're at right now. Well, we could go east through Japan and then we'd take a flight over to San Francisco, or we could go through Taiwan. Now, these are different ways of doing it.

SPEAKER_02 12:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:06

And neither of them is right or wrong. They have different advantages and different disadvantages. But the reality is if we have that common goal, getting there becomes a lot easier and it allows us the freedom to explore that path without some of the stress if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 12:25

So are you just getting really smart from all of these conversations that you've been having with financial experts?

SPEAKER_00 12:32

I don't know. I don't know. I still mess things up. I bought something stupid today and I didn't need to do it, and I did it.

SPEAKER_03 12:38

Because, you know, you're just bringing up all of these things that we absolutely do in the work. Like we start with the money scripts, right? And try to understand what did we hear about money growing up? What stuck with us? What are we still walking around with? You know, what messages? And it gives us so much understanding. But then what you just moved into now is like the dreams. You've got to be able to talk about what your dreams are without judgment. And that's the tough part. Like I've been working, it just happened with a client. Um, the dream conversation didn't go so well. So I said, Well, what what would what did it sound like? You know, you know, like what did you share? What did you, how did you respond? And I'm like, oh yeah, probably if I had shared that, but I got that response and I was kind of careful about it. But I said, can I be really honest with you here? Um, I would have felt dismissed and kind of sad too. So why don't you do that dream conversation again? And here's how it can be. And it has to be without judgment, it has to just be with curiosity in stri instead of going into, you know, and this is speaking, Sean, to your shared goals. You've got to talk about your dreams to be able to come up and be aligned with shared goals. But the way to get there can be difficult for people, the path to get to those shared goals, because if you're talking about those, you might all you might jump in with evaluation. Oh, well, we can't do that. No, that's not practical. But we could do this over here. That's not what the conversation is about. It's about just talking about and being curious about your partner and saying, you know, and what else? And where would you like to have that happen? And why is that important to you? And that's it. That's it. You know, you're not like trying to fix it and make it happen or anything like that. But you have to get to that point because we kind of we kind of have our perspectives, our fixed perspectives. And we have to step out of those and really be. I mean, this applies to everything in our relationships, but money, it's really important to be that way, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:56

It's interesting because people forget that um what I was like, the other day I had this epiphany moment because I was talking to a guest about, but it wasn't about money. It was on my Sean Trake show podcast. And we were talking just about goals in life and accomplishing things. And as we were talking about this, one of the things that popped up was that if you want to accomplish something, you have to have three things. You have to figure out your goals, but once you figure out the goals, you have to have your values. And the values are really important because your values represent what's important to you and like how are you going to get there and like the why.

SPEAKER_02 15:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

You know, and then upon the values, after you have the values, the one and single most important thing is the habits. And unless you have the habits, you're not getting anywhere. And that's where I find myself getting hung up because I have the goals and I have the values, I have the reasons I want to get there, but then I get hung up on all the habits. And that's the hard part. It's in enacting. And like we all have positive and negative habits. You know, my wife and I both have our habits that are where we start to rub each other wrong. And the habits are a reflection on the values. You know what I mean? So it's like this, it's this triangle that you have to have everything in place.

SPEAKER_03 16:12

Yeah, yeah, it's true. The habits that's interesting because uh I think of the goals being, you know, those dream conversations and getting aligned there. And the values, um, you gotta dig into too, because we have different values and we need to understand why we like to spend where we spend, you know, and and and there's motivations behind that too, you know. Um you're trying to create safety for yourself, are you trying to create uh adventure and spontaneity and and vitality and all of those things? You know, there's those deeper motivations. But yeah, the habits. So um what I have found is that um we we tend, like I mentioned, um, spender saver, we tend to fall into one of those. But when we're under stress, that's when our habits that we want kind of fall apart. And that's I just call it emotional spending. And so, yes, we can decide these are the habits I'm gonna have. But when we're under stress, don't you think? That's when we have trouble following through on the healthy habits that we want. And so we do need to kind of understand. If this is kind of what you're speaking to, Sean, you can you can confirm or let me know, or we can go in a different direction. But what I was thinking was we have to understand what is it that gets us off course? What kind of, what are the triggers? You know, what's the environment? What's the what are the messages or words that we heard here from our partner or, you know, from the outside world? What is it that's triggering us that trips us up in following through on our habits?

SPEAKER_00 18:01

I love that. And I one of the things that I I I wonder people talk about couples and um and people accomplishing their goals, but like I wonder like, what is it that makes it so couples don't accomplish their goals? You know what I mean? Is it because you know, when a crack begins to form in a financial plan, is one person being like undermined faster? You know, and it's like for me, one of the things that I had to start learning, you know, just as I've been, I I paid off all my credit card debt, and I've been learning to use credit cards in a responsible way. Like I I just I pay something and then I pay it immediately down. So I get points, I get those protections, but like I don't trust, I don't treat it like a credit card. Yeah. I'm immediately paying them off because I know myself. Okay. I know myself. And so, but one of the things is like one of the realities is is that I had to completely change my mindset and I had to unlearn certain habits. And the habit that I had to unlearn was um first and foremost, was that I was my own weak link. You know, and like as I was paying down my debt, like I could see that my impulse control wasn't great, you know? So I have a little box on my I have a little box on my desk.

SPEAKER_03 19:26

That's so good. That is so important.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

A locked safe. Now, in here, I keep all my cards. Wow. I do not keep them in my wallet.

SPEAKER_02 19:35

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 19:35

So then I have to physically come home, and that's not, and my wife's like, why do you keep that safe on your desk? I think people will know where it's at. I'm like, no, that's not for other people. It's not to keep other people out. Yeah, that's to keep me out. Yeah. You know, that's to keep me from going at those. And I have this tiny little safe that keeps me from going because the effort of sitting there, opening it up, and like, so like my point being, like, I think that couples have to start identifying their own weaknesses and bringing that and leaning on the other person to be the person who can bring strength in that area, but you need a vulnerability in your relationship to be able to see what it is that you need to unlearn and fix.

SPEAKER_03 20:17

Yeah, absolutely. And you need uh emotional safety in your relationship so that you can lean on the other and be honest about that and transparent. If you didn't feel like you had it, if you had that kind of safety in your relationship with your wife, you wouldn't have explained to her why you have that on your desk, you know? And and so uh a lot of times that safety isn't there in the relationship. So, you know, uh there's a lot of work that is done just in uh developing that that really has nothing to do with money, too, because you've got to have that kind of environment. Um, I would also add that what you're talking about is something that I call financial boundaries. You know, just like people know about boundaries work, right? You know, there's books out there about uh about boundaries or emotional boundaries and stuff like that. But I have not heard um it often I haven't by anybody else, honestly, um talked about as financial boundaries. And so I um I I I have people work on their financial boundaries with themselves. You have a financial boundary right there that you set up. It's so wise, it's so practical, and it works. And then there's financial boundaries that we have to set up with our partner, as in like, I don't want you to criticize me for this without us, you know, approaching it in a in a in a curious, nonjudgmental way. That might be a a boundary between us, and then there's boundaries with the world. Like I don't get on, you know, like your boundary might be you don't, I don't get on Amazon, you know, at 10 p.m. to at night when my decision making abilities are are trashed. For the day, and I'm vulnerable and I'm tired. You know, that would be uh perhaps a boundary with the outside world. Or if you have a family that always puts pressure on you to spend um in a certain situation, and that is gonna undermine your goal, that's a boundary too. So um, yeah, I think that's kind of what you're talking about. You were talking about the ones that we need with ourselves in order to be able to follow through and um accomplish our goals, to have the habits to accomplish our goals. But sometimes we also have to have those boundaries with one another and we have to have those boundaries with the outside world too. Yeah. And understand those, like do that inside work to understand what's inside my spending.

SPEAKER_00 22:51

You know, and one of the things, too, that I find with couples and and and money is the idea of balance and power dynamic balances, you know, and I think that um if you haven't figured out the power games in your relationship, then money amplifies the imbalances in an extreme way, you know. So I think that people have to like one of the things that I think that people need to understand, money is inherently just an amplifier.

SPEAKER_03 23:25

It's an amplifier. That's a good word for it.

SPEAKER_00 23:27

Cranks up, it cranks up the vibration of whatever you're in. If your relationship has imbalance, then that money is going to highlight that imbalance. It's gonna resonate stronger. If you have a an imbalance of one person is is slightly dominant over the other, and that money is gonna enhance that dominance. And it's like one of the things that I think that we people have to understand is like, great, get the money, but also do the work. You know, figure out how you can communicate better. Because, you know, money's not making you communicate poorly, but if there's a power imbalance and the person's not feeling confident or safe to speak back, I mean, when I was making less money, my relationship with my wife was much worse than it is when I started making more money. And it had nothing to do with anything except I didn't feel comfortable speaking up and standing up and saying what I think thought was right in those situations because she was making a lot more than me. You know, and I think that's one of the things that I think that the the fairness, you know, and a financial fairness, especially when you're looking at the balance between the two, you know, and like there is a game that you know, how do you split? And, you know, if you guys are are sharing finances and there is an expense that is, you know, a thousand dollar expense. And there's this this is the thing that people have to think about, you know, are we splitting it 50-50? Does one person cover it or do these does the other? And I think people just get nervous about having some of these conversations because it's not always clear as to how to how to break those things down, you know, and I think that people feel scared about going down that path in the first place.

SPEAKER_03 25:13

Yeah. And I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all. I personally would not want to be in a relationship where we split things 60-40 or 50-50 or you know, according to income. Um, I personally would not want to be in that. Um, wow. I mean, that's complicated. And, you know, just pragmatically, that's not a lot of fun. And I always want to keep, you know, financial management as simple as possible. Um but I think it also makes it it's transactional, which is not what a relationship, a partnership is about. Now, can that work? Yes, and there are some reasons why um people might need to still do that. They may have had a lot of financial abuse in the past. This may be a second marriage, um, and there may have been some real trauma around money. So you don't just dive in and go, well, yeah, you know, you're married now or you're living together, you know, you're partners and you should just be sharing everything. That's just insensitive. Is that is is that the best? Yeah, I think that's the best, you know, and then it doesn't, it doesn't matter what your income is. Um so it just it it it can work, but you're right, Sean. If it's not going to be completely shared, then there has to be even more conversations about it. And and you have to learn how to have those conversations. Um, I think in every any partnership, whether income is uneven or not, I think the responsibilities, you navigate that, and the responsibilities aren't uneven in a partnership unless the partnership is really in peril. If it's not, it's not a partnership, you know. But there are so many different responsibilities in life. It's not just about making money. It's not just providing the um bringing home the bacon, you know, it's it's um couples work that out organically, I think, or maybe more intentionally, but they're sharing responsibilities. Because it's not just about bring it's not just about how much money you you you put in the bank for you to uh live off of together and to grow. Um so I think the responsibilities generally are always equal and shared. We just have to realize that it's not always equal as far as money, and that's okay. Then put it together, pull it together and share it. That's what I think is the best.

SPEAKER_00 28:10

I I love it too. I love that that as well. But you know, to do that, you have to again get back to the values, get back to the the shared goal.

SPEAKER_03 28:18

When there's differences in values, it can be tough, you know. Like, I don't want you spending money on that. Well, then I'll spend my own money. That's where that comes in.

SPEAKER_00 28:27

One person ends up being the fun killer, yeah, you know, and then one person seems reckless. And like, and that's something that you have to find balance to. And like that's one of the things that for me and my wife, uh, we are trying to shift toward a bucket, the bucket method. Because then, you know, there's always that money that that one person can. We have our goals, we have our habits, we have our our our values, but there's also an amount set aside that the person can do the stupid things and we're still going in the right direction. Yeah, you know, like I I bought a I bought a cape today. I'm wearing my cape. I noticed that. My wife said we're going to an event, and uh, and I uh it was like part of the dress code was to wear a a shoulder cape. Uh-huh. And then finally I was like, she's like, actually, I'm gonna go to this event myself because um there was a good reason for it. Then I I won't get into that on the air. I don't like some of the people at that event, and I don't have the ability to hide my emotions very well. I'm not that guy. If I don't like you, you will know I don't like you.

SPEAKER_03 29:37

We haven't gotten there yet, so okay. Thank God.

SPEAKER_00 29:40

I'm not I don't know if I'll ever get there because I'm not good at that. I'm not good at like, I don't like you. And so I was not gonna be able to wear my cape to the event. So I'm wearing my cape now because it is awesome, and everyone should have an excuse to wear a cape. I will also bust it out for Halloween when I go dressed up as something from Hogwarts. That being said, nice, this is one of the dumber uh things that I bought recently. Um, it wasn't expensive, but it still was like, I got it. And my wife's like, Are you serious? But I planned for it and I budgeted for it. And then she can look at me, judge me for the horribly, silly, stupid thing I bought. But there's not the anger, there's not the stress because I didn't pull from something that was important because it was already budgeted for stuff. And I think that's where you can find that when you have set aside those guardrails and that you have people staying inside those guardrails. And when you're inside the guardrails, there's safety, you know?

SPEAKER_03 30:40

Yes, yes. And yeah, you have a plan. You have a financial plan, you have come up with it together, and you're aligned on it, and there's wiggle room inside of that. I mean, you know, yeah, you buying the cape doesn't um blow the plan. So you go buy what you want, Sean. Stupid as it is, go buy some more stupid stuff. But you're right, that doesn't. I it made me think though of um, yeah, you know, here I do this work, you know, but I learned so much about what's going on with my own husband, too, and and the and the mistakes that I make, you know, and it wasn't too long ago. He we had planned, uh sort of budgeted for this implement that he needed to buy for his tractor. And is we live out in the country. Um, so you gotta have a few extra things to take care of it. And uh um, it was gonna be more than what we planned. And and and he came to me um, probably not the best time I was working here in the office, but um, and he said, you know, it's gonna cost this much. And I just immediately responded, like, oh my gosh, wow, that's a lot. And see how sensitive we can be to those judgments from others. I knew immediately that that just deflated him. And here's why, because he's trying, he's trying to accomplish something very difficult. It was to put crushed asphalt in a driveway. And and um he's already feeling stressed out about being, can I do this by myself and not hire this out? Can I do a good job? And then all of a sudden I'm like, you know, I'm I'm just reacting to the cost of that. Um, and um it was a conflict of values, I guess, you know? It it it meant more to him. He valued it more because it would allow him to do a good job and give him some security in being able to do it. For me, it was like, well, crap, that's outside the budget.

SPEAKER_00 32:49

No, one of the things that is it's interesting to me because we have these different alignments and we we we we can't always fully understand where the other person's at. Yeah. And we might, and if you you take the the wind out of their sails, it's really tough. I have um, so I started making some merch for some of my podcasts. I have barrels and roots hats, I have hats for my full battery media. Uh, and one of the reasons is is that because I'm in I I spend part of my time in Vietnam, which is a manufacturing awesomeness place. And there's a lot of things that are made here. And I've been talking to my brother about starting our own bag company, like messenger bags, backpacks, um, and mountain biking hats and things like that. And I already started getting them made. Uh, very limited run, about 30 pieces of 30 hats, 30 of the different hats, 30 of the backpacks, and 30 of the little fanny packs. And I'm gonna be pairing them with my brand. So as I build my podcast, the Sean Trey show especially, some of the guests I'm gonna be like, hey, you're an outdoorsman. I'm gonna send you some of the swag, some of the gear that we're developing. I would love for you to go out and test this. Tell me how you like it, what you would change, and give me feedback. And as I build my podcast and grow my stuff, I have a company that I'm growing with me. And so that, you know, like Mr. Beast has feastables, other people have their thing. I've got this up this up this outdoor company brand that I'm starting to build. Now, when I told my wife about it, she looked at me like I was crazy. And I was like, because she didn't fully understand where my mind was at, didn't understand the vision that I had and all of that. She just saw me taking an excessive risk. And she's like, Well, you're not Mr. Beast. You shouldn't be doing that. And I said, I know, I'm not, I'm not doing 10,000 bags. I'm doing 30 bags. Like, that is a very reasonable thing, and it's just something to try. And then, if nothing else, I create some cool gifts that I get to send to some of the people that I want to try this out, and they have something cool to walk away from to remember me by. But it was interesting because I had to then define as well, this will not come from this fund, it will come from a business fund. It's part of my marketing expense for my company, you know, because this is still outreach. This is still a connection builder.

SPEAKER_02 35:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:20

And one of the things that was interesting is when we were able to talk it out and get clarity. First of all, she still didn't understand it, but she was able to respect it. And I think that that's that's a good step sometimes as well. People, you will not always see eye to eye with your partner. Like there is always going to be a degree of difference that we all have. However, you can start to see why they do things and try to understand that.

SPEAKER_03 35:53

It's just that it's so hard sometimes for couples to have the kind of conversation that you even had with your wife, for her to get to a point where she could come not completely understand it, um, but support you. And it's very and that's that speaks a lot to your to your marriage. But it is very difficult for couples, many couples, to have those conversations because they have entrenched patterns. When they try to talk about things, they will shut down or it will escalate. Um, and they just walk away deflated and frustrated because you might go in with the right intentions, but you haven't learned yet how to get past those kinds of um ingrained reactions. And um so, you know, it all sounds great. And it's still hard, those conversations that you had, you know, are still hard, but at least you're able to have them. And then we've got couples out there who don't know how. And and that's where I bring in some um, you know, and it doesn't really even have anything to do with money. It just has uh happens to be that's where our focus is is how can you have money conversations? And I'll bring in some, if you've ever heard of Gottman, um, got John uh and Julie Gottman, their John Gottman's awesome research over the decades. And so that has been a language that has been very helpful in my coaching to talk about the four horsemen. And so we, yeah, if people understand a little more about what is happening in their conversations, when they're trying to have that and why that's happening, and have like a shared language, then they can start to improve them. They can start to shift those conversations, like, oh, that was defensiveness, you know. Um, you know, oh, I I heard criticism. Um stonewalling is when you avoid and just, you know, just shut down those kinds of things. So a lot of times when you have a language to something, it gives you a little bit more confidence in uh dealing with it.

SPEAKER_00 38:26

So the conversations are important, they are, and they're an they're a key part of clearing out the baggage. And you know, I I think that when you uncover a band-aid, like one of the dangers and fears is that what's underneath is going to be worse. And it's kind of like Schrdinger's cat. You know, that cat lives in the box, and you know, you don't know what was it? Is the cat dead? Is the cat alive? Like, that's the whole thing with Schrdinger's like cat. Like, you until you look at the box, you're not aware of the state of what things are at. And so it's interesting to like couples will exist in this weird, you know, space between positive connections and very toxic ones because they're just not talking. And it's like, but sometimes I think that we're trying to talk about how to help couples have financial conversations, but sometimes I think they need to start off by just having conversations.

SPEAKER_03 39:34

Oh, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 39:35

My wife and I like to go out. We have a date night where we'll go to this one. I don't, I don't drink much. I have a podcast about wine, and I love wine, and I grew up in wine country, but I'll have a glass of wine every every three months. Like I don't, I so I'll go out to her with her to the bar and I'll have some sparkling water, and she will have a cocktail, and we just sit there, and it's not about the drinking, it's just about the community and the time, and we just get to sit there and it's a place that we feel safe and we just talk. And it's really interesting because uh when we do that, we'll just I'll turn to her and be like, How have you been? You know, and I think that like that's if we sat there and I had to turn to her and be like, let's talk money right now. Oh man, that would have that would load it up, you know. Maybe we do need to talk it and we might get there. Yeah, but we have to just talk to each other before we get to that heavy space, you know?

SPEAKER_03 40:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's true. I mean, yeah, when I'm working with Kethels, um, oh gosh, I have uh a little guide that they can use that just has a gazillion different questions that they can ask one another, conversation starters, you know. Um but but but it's true. I mean, they're they're all uh around money, but there are some very general ones that can just, they don't even have to be about money, or they're just so barely about money. Um, you know, and when you're having conversations about dreams, those are good conversations to have that you really not aren't aren't talking about money so much. You're just talking about your dreams. Um, yeah. So you make a really good point. And uh yeah, I'm even gonna think about it because it's like, you know, we start, we try to start really easy, but let's throw some conversations in there that don't even hint at money, right? Because yeah, that's that's sometimes where people are starting.

SPEAKER_02 41:29

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 41:30

I love it. If you could talk to a couple today about how they can turn their relationship with money around, what would you tell them to do?

SPEAKER_03 41:41

I hope it doesn't sound too simple, but um they well, we like simple, right? And it doesn't necess simple doesn't necessarily mean easy. Um, but um it comes back to those conversations and making connections. Yeah. So I want them to, I would tell them to be very intentional. It may feel awkward at first. And to your point, it doesn't have to be about money, but let's think, find a time. You know, where's your safe spot? You know, a safe place for you as a couple. Um and you it might be spontaneous, but it might have to be planned to make it happen. And that's where the awkwardness comes. You know, you think, well, I'm a couple. We should just be able to talk anywhere, anytime about anything, right? But you're not. So you you gotta start with these baby steps and be very intentional about conversations, an intentional conversation every week. Every week. Um and I have, like I said, so many um possible prompts that I provide for them. Um but it can certainly be anything that they want. But think ahead, honestly, about what are we going to talk about? Think about a question. And then I would tell that couple when you go into this conversation, this is different than what it has been. Because you've either shut down or it's escalated, those kinds of things. This is about just listening to your partner, asking the question, listen, be curious, maybe ask, you know, a few more questions, you know, to tag on to that because you heard something and and have them dig a little deeper and then just affirm, you know, wow, thanks for sharing that, or that was really interesting, or I can see that's important to you. That's it. No judgment. There is no judgment in that at all, right? And that I think can really reset if there's been these patterns. Um, it might not go perfectly. If it doesn't go perfectly, Then promise that you'll come back and try again. Be there for your partner. And so, um, and then you know, the other person asks that it's their turn, ask the same question. Now it's my turn to ask you that question. And and we're not wrapping it up in a pretty bow. We're not solving any problems, coming up with any plans. We are just talking and listening. I love that. Feeling heard, feeling valued. Doesn't so that you feel, yeah, and that emotional safety can grow like, wow, I can actually talk to them about what really matters to me. And they're and there's not going to be any judgment. So yeah, it's got to be reset and you might have to just do it intentionally. It might feel awkward. And um Oh yeah, we're supposed to have our question now and our conversation.

SPEAKER_00 44:51

Right.

SPEAKER_03 44:51

Yeah, that's what I would tell them.

SPEAKER_00 44:54

Let me ask people if people can go somewhere to find out more about you, where should they go?

SPEAKER_03 44:59

Thanks for asking. Yeah. I mean, really, everything lives at my website, which is dzimmermanfinance.com. Just the letter D. Dzimmermanfinance.com. And there's an online quiz they can take if they want, um, to find out a little bit more about the patterns that are happening with their conversations. And that's kind of fun. Um, there's a single session that where we dive in and do a diagnostic and find out where you stand with your numbers. Um, and then everything's there about deeper work stuff too. Yeah. And my perspectives and kind of the kind of the research that I bring in with how I use Gottman also and and other types of things and sort of combine that with the practical stuff. Yeah. Yeah.