Money Feels Personal | Nathan Astle | Growing Money with Sean Trace

In this episode of Growing Money with Sean Trace, I sit down with Nathan Astle, a certified financial therapist, to talk about why money is never just about numbers. 

We get into financial anxiety, money trauma, shame, overspending, couples fighting about money, and the emotional patterns that quietly shape the way we save, spend, avoid, or obsess over money. Nathan shares why so many people use financial solutions for emotional problems, and how our childhood money memories can become the beliefs we carry into adulthood. This conversation made me look at my own spending patterns, anxiety, and family money stories in a totally different way. 

We also talk about how to build a healthier relationship with money by getting curious instead of judgmental, practicing self-compassion, and noticing what emotions are actually driving our choices.

What money belief did you grow up with that you are still trying to unlearn?

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I think when it comes to like I I need to make better money decisions, I think a good starting point is what are the emotions that drive the money decisions that I don't like? If I'm overspending I'm on Amazon late at night, or you know, I'm able to recognize some patterns of I tend to make poor financial choices or choices I don't like more often when I'm tired, hungry, lonely, when I'm with friends, when I'm alone, when on my phone. Like we can work on some behavioral aspects of like, hey, what what barriers can we put in place to make doing that thing a little bit harder? But also I think it's really helpful to figure out what are the emotions that drive the behavior? What am I feeling before, during, and after the purchase? And I guarantee you there are patterns of like I'm I feel something, or I'm in a specific mental or emotional state that leads me to this behavior. Let's focus on that because behind every emotion is a need. And if we can figure out what the need is, we won't have to go to that specific financial solution for it.

SPEAKER_02 1:24

Welcome everybody back to the Growing Money with Sean Trace Podcast. I've got an awesome guest for me today. Would you like to tell people who you are and a little bit about what you do?

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Yeah. Hi, everybody. I'm Nathan Astel. I'm a certified financial therapist. And so, my what I do is I help people uh with financial trauma, couples with financial conflict, financial anxiety, all the kind of mental health aspects of working with money.

SPEAKER_02 1:50

That's awesome. It's like, I think that like all the mental that's like a huge part of money. Like it is a huge part of money. The mental health aspects of working with money, I think, are like probably 90% of working with money. It involves how we approach it, you know, from a mindset perspective. How did you sit there and go, you know, this is something that I want to study, and this is something, a path I want to go down?

SPEAKER_00 2:15

Um, like most great things, it happened by pure chance. Um, I so I went to uh Kansas State University for my master's in couples and family therapy. So I always wanted to be a therapist, like that was the main goal. And I was at school and I didn't realize it, but Kansas State is kind of a hub for financial therapy. So I I just got exposed there. And it wasn't until I was actually seeing my own therapist and processing my own traumas what I where I realized how much of my own stuff was tied up with money, and seeing my parents fight about money and how that impacted me, and how it changed the way I thought about money and its purpose and its use, and and then how it was affecting my marriage and how I was making budgets and plans with my wife. All of these things like kind of connected, and that's when I think it became really personal. Like, oh, this is deep. This this isn't just a fun little niche thing. This is actually really important, deep meaningful work.

SPEAKER_02 3:18

I love that too, because I don't think people realize how much we have underneath the surface around money. Um, how much is going on behind the scenes and how much uh trauma many people have around money, whether it be witnessing parents fighting, whether it be the lack that you were, you know, growing up in, or whether it be the affluence that you were growing up in. Like, I'm not gonna say that one side or the other has an easier situation. I do think there are pros and cons to all sides, but yet a lot of people have trauma around money. And I want to ask you this like if money makes someone feel stressed out or scared, what's the first thing they should do to start figuring that all out? That's a lot of us.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

Yeah. I well, I think it is helpful to start digging out potentially what's underneath some money. Um I'm for sure there are money issues that are solved by having money. I I fully understand that poverty and not having to have to pay your bills, it's it's it's a very unique kind of stress. And also money is something that oftentimes, not always, but oftentimes we're able to make different choices with it. Like, okay, I I get to choose whether I spend money here versus there, whether I make money in this way versus that money, uh, versus that way, but we have choice in it. A lot of times what happens though is we have a meaning-making process with money. It's it's not about the money itself, it's about what the money means. It represents something to us, it represents control, it represents stability, it represents fun or adventure, it represents family, represents whatever it is. And that's the thing that we're usually hung up on. Uh, one of the things I say is a lot of times we have financial solutions to emotional problems. Like we're trying to solve something with money, or we're trying to focus or find the solution in a money thing when what might be actually happening is more of I'm feeling fear, I'm feeling insecure, I'm feeling uh abandoned or lonely. I'm those are the things that you're probably gonna end up making better money decisions, but also approach money differently if if we can get to that part, the the deeper parts rather than just I don't have enough money or I need to you know change something with my money.

SPEAKER_02 6:00

How does someone start uncovering that? You know, like it's like when I start looking at it for myself, you know, I start asking these questions, but every time that I start going deep, um the challenge is I keep getting another layer of the onion, another layer of the onion. Do you need to solve each layer as you go, or you do you have to get to the core root problem to solve it? You know what I mean? Like, or do you just work with one thing that comes up at a time? Or do you work with the cognitive, like behavioral side, just working with behaviors? You know, which what direction do you think is the most effective? I say that because my mom, my mom's a cognitive behavioral therapist therapist, and I grew up around that.

SPEAKER_00 6:43

So yeah. I I think uh every therapist is gonna have their own philosophy of what you know what is most effective. I'll I'll tell you what I do, and where I where I think a lot of people as far as asking for what's the starting point. Um, I usually do an activity with my clients in the first session or two. It's called the money timeline. And it's it's what it sounds like. It's a you have them do a timeline of their life, but focusing on money memories. And uh so you know, money memories between four and six, six and ten, what you know, and and people can actually find this worksheet on my website, it's free to just download it. But what we're looking for is not just money memories, but how they felt. I look back and I I think about my parents fighting, and at the time I was scared, and now I still feel scary, or now I still I feel a little sad. Or I remember getting my first job and I was so proud. And now looking back, I'm I'm actually a little disappointed because I got screwed over at the job or something. And as people write out these memories, there usually come some themes that come with it. Like, oh, there's this kind of theme along here that says, like, I can't trust myself with money, or I can't trust others with money, or I was taught money causes problems, or or money is the root of all evil, or money solves all of our problems. And you know, you're talking about affluent people who grew up in wealthier homes. Uh, money also represents power, and we control people with money. These are all money beliefs that come from our experiences, and so I find that to be a really effective way to cut through a lot of what feels like nebulous information and be like, okay, what are the belief systems I have around money? I can see where they came from. And now, how do I want to process or change my money story and shift some things? And uh but I I do find that to be a really helpful starting point, though.

SPEAKER_02 8:56

I love that. And I think having a starting point is a good thing because once you get a place to start, you can figure out a direction to go to kind of get your bearings. Because I think one of the things that I've learned in my own therapy journey is if I try to do everything at the same time, I get overwhelmed. So I I like to go in and just go, where are we going today? And trying to figure out that one thing that I can work on that time in that session. But you know, I want to ask you this one because why do you think people make bad money decisions even when they know better? You know, is that something that's going on with their money psychology?

SPEAKER_00 9:32

Yeah, I going back to that quote of financial solution for emotional problems, they're they do know better, but knowing better cognitively doesn't necessarily mean that I have the resources to do something different. And it it's it also doesn't mean that I'm emotionally prepared to make whatever shift I need to make. Um, think about it like dieting. Okay, we all know that we need to eat well, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we actually do it all the time. Education is necessary, but by itself not enough. And so I think when it comes to like I need to make better money decisions, I think a good starting point is what are the emotions that drive the money decisions that I don't like? If I'm overspending, I'm on Amazon late at night, or you know, I'm able to recognize some patterns of I tend to make poor financial choices or choices I don't like more often when I'm tired, hungry, lonely, when I'm with friends, when I'm alone, when on my phone. Like we can work on some behavioral aspects of like, hey, what what barriers can we put in place to make doing that thing a little bit harder? Uh, but also I think it's really helpful to figure out what are the emotions that drive the behavior? What am I feeling before, during, and after the purchase? And I guarantee you there are patterns of like I'm I feel something, or I'm then in a specific mental or emotional state that leads me to this behavior. Let's focus on that, because behind every emotion is a need. And if we can figure out what the need is, we won't have to go to that specific financial solution for it.

SPEAKER_02 11:30

I got to study with an absolute master of an acting teacher in Ivana Chubak. Great, great, great teacher. Um, I'm actually going to Japan, Tokyo, to see her at the end of next month. And super excited. She's teaching around the world. And I'm I'm in Vietnam, so Tokyo was the closest place I could get to that was easy. Um now she works along the lines of when you're diving into a character, one of the things you want to understand the character, and every character has a goal. They have an overarching goal, and they have these sub goals for every scene that you're in in the play or the movie or whatever it is. And when you start going into the character, you know, so your character slaps someone. Well, that just doesn't happen. That doesn't happen unless there's a reason. Why is does your character seek power? Is this a person like, are you playing a mob boss? You know, like, you know, it's like, but you know, that could be rooted in security. Like, if you're overspending, if you're buying things, there's a reason why. Like there's something behind it, you know, and there's probably an unmet need or an invalidation or something back there that, you know, at least in my I know that when I go shopping, I just want to feel better. It makes me feel good, you know. And I'm like, I had a tough day today. I don't drink, I don't go and you know, overeat. But hey, you know that new device that just came out, and that's where I just have to slow myself down because it's like something like I want to feel better. So I have to try to find more healthy outlets, you know, that are go exercise or go do something like that that can also handle that same unmet need of just wanting to release some stress, you know. But I think that's been a tough journey for me to figure that out, you know.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

Yeah. Well, I appreciate you sharing because I think that's something most of us deal with on some level. We're we're trying to get some dopamine from from shopping. I I'm gonna say there's nothing wrong with that to a level, right? Like 100%. Uh we we do need coping skills, we do need ways to to get out of our feeling. And I will I will say that there's always more than one way to meet a need. Yeah. Like I our culture has taught us that spending money is the way that we get to feel good. You know, if if you were my client, I I might explore past experiences where you learned as a child or growing up that the way a way that we change our feeling is by going shopping. And that I think it's truly something pretty much everybody learns at some point. And so then we might explore other, you know, are there other ways to to take care of that feeling and exercise, some self-validation, some meditation, reaching out to friends, whatever it is. But it's taking this out of just, you know, there's a I have a spending problem. Cause like, no, you don't have a spending problem. You have a spending solution.

unknown 14:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

And yeah, when we can figure out what the actual problem is, we can come up with another solution that doesn't require the spending anymore.

SPEAKER_02 14:58

I love that. I love that. You know, and you you just started talking about that, like, go back to your early memories, and boom, you know what popped into my head? Chuck E. Cheese. Chuck E. Cheese was where we would go, and like as a kid, you know, I know my parents were having stress, there was money problems. You know, we got my mom did did buy us cool stuff, and Sears, the Sears catalog was like the thing, you know. But Chuck E. Cheese was a place of like when we went in there, there was no holding back. It was like little kids Vegas, you know, and so we just exactly what it is, right? I went to an arcade recently with my daughter, and I turned to my wife, and I was like, this is just like Vegas, it's just like this dopamine hits. And again, it's not bad, but yet what I the pattern was is we would go there when things were stressful, when things were getting tough, you know. And I think that that kind of created that cycle and loop. Um, but you know, as I got older, I didn't have the money to do that. So I turned to exercise and fitness. So fitness was always my dopamine hit, you know? And so it's interesting that you're right, it's all a different way of doing it. But I want to ask you this because you say money is more about feelings than math, but what does that actually mean?

SPEAKER_00 16:19

Yeah, it's kind of what we've been talking about, where our our money behavior is more driven by emotion than uh some objective reality of this is how much money is that we have and where it's going. A lot of times we look for, well, there's this math solution that I have to figure out exactly where to spend my or when how to save my money or how to put this money over here, and that and that's the way to make it. And for sure, it's important to know the math of what's going on, what's coming in, what's going out, is this sustainable? Are there debts? Are we savings? Is interest killing me? Like all of those things are important to know, but money is it's inherently emotional. You have never had an unemotional money experience. Uh thus can be big money experiences like buying a house or getting a new job, uh, and they can be small money experiences, buying the candy bar or the checkout aisle. Those are all driven to some level by emotion. And so if we get better at recognizing our emotions, uh responding to our emotions, validating and when necessary, controlling how our emotions show up, we make better money decisions. Always. It's it's just one of those things. If we approach money through a psychological or emotional lens, we just tend to do better in the long run.

SPEAKER_02 17:57

I love that because, you know, I I would talk to my daughter a lot about controlling emotions. And there are certain things I want to do, but that doesn't mean that I should do it. Someone pulls in front of me. I might want to smack them. Doesn't mean that's a good idea. You know, motorcycle cuts me off with the guy texting and and you know, doing other things at the same time on a motorcycle. I see it every day. I feel things, I feel emotions. Those emotions don't necessarily have my best interest in mind. And as I talked to my daughter, like, I'd like to say we adults are better than our younger selves, but in a lot of ways, we're pretty much the same, you know? And my daughter was like, I saw this kid in class and he shoved me today. I wanted to punch him in the face. And I said, that might feel good in the moment. But future you, who's in detention and having to write 25 sentences on the board, is not going to be happy about that. And she was like, Oh, that's a good point. And I think that it was about just working with my daughter, about trying to turn on that, you know, I don't know what you would call it, but that feedback loop of going, this might not be the best decision, because I don't know about you, but I can definitely turn that part of my brain off at will when I go shopping. It pops up, hey, hey, you don't need that. I'm like, yes, I do. Yes, I do. And I don't.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

Yeah. I oh I I love talking about this. If you've ever seen the movie Inside Out, I love it.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

It's a great movie.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

One and two. Yeah. But both are great. I it's kind of an analogy we'll sometimes use is when you're making money decisions, who's at the controls? Is it sadness or fear or you know, anxiety? Oh anxiety, yeah. So the thing is is we don't we don't fix our emotions by by suppressing them, right? We don't that doesn't solve them, that just makes them stronger. Um and how we respond to the emotion matters. So the example with your daughter, like, yes, there are there's consequences to acting on emotion. That I would say that's uh like obviously true. And also kind of step one. Step one is saying, hey, there's consequences, so maybe it's not a good idea. The step two is now what does the emotion actually need? It's it's telling you it's urge, which is to punch him, the the kid. But what does it actually need? Well, I need to feel like it's fair. Something that something happened to me that isn't fair or it's not just. Okay, so what we really need is justice. We we need to feel like something can be made right about the situation. Let's talk about one. Is that likely to happen? Is that a possibility? And if not, uh for because there's a lot of things in life that we can't make just all the time. If it's not impossible, what are the ways that I can take care of this feeling that doesn't continue to harm me? And so I like I I love this conversation you're having because I I do think it all gets down to this emotion process of like I can recognize the emotion, I can recognize this underlying need and be able to move past the urge. There's an actual need underneath. Because if you this same process is this is the one that she will be using when she's making money decisions. Like I have the urge to spend, urges are all of the we all have them, and they're not bad. What they are are our emotion solution. However, our urges aren't always right. So let's train get curious with the emotion and talk with the emotion and figure it out rather than. You know, the listening to it, but also rather than also not shoving it down. Don't know if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

No, it makes complete sense. It makes complete sense. And if I think about it in terms of inside out, this whole conversation gets way easier for me to comprehend.

SPEAKER_02 22:18

Because I I deal with and I talk about this. I deal with constant anxiety. I have a diagnosed anxiety disorder that I have worked with much of my life. I keep it, keep it controlled. I keep it, you know, under I manage it, I work with it. We are friends, but anxiety and I we have issues. I'm joy. I want to be joy. And anxiety is like, you know, and and you know, and what I find is that um when I start getting into money stuff, for a long time, anxiety took the controls, you know, it was anxiety was the one driving the driving the Sean around, you know, and one of the things that I think is interesting is is not repressing it because at times you're right, we do look at those emotions and try to shove them down, you know, what whatever it might be, whatever that trauma might be, you know. I look at we were at my mother-in-law has been traveling uh the last week, and while she's been gone, we've been throwing stuff out because she is a hoarder. And I'm not talking like a minor, like it is. We have, I've found about man, I gotta figure out a unit of measurement that just describes size. But you know, those Trader Joe bags, those big Trader Joe bags, or you know, about 25 of those full of trash uh plastic bags. 25. And they were everywhere. And I was like, we were like, what is happening here? Why does why do we not use these Trader Joe bags to get stuff? But it's just plastic bags everywhere. We went through, we were trying to figure out where they were all hidden. We found other stuff, and there was stuff upon stuff. My sister-in-law said that she was going to throw away the old rice paddles, like that to like from when my wife and sister were, you know, like five years old. And we found those paddles hidden underneath my mother-in-law's bed, wrapped up in cellophane, to hide them so that no one could throw out the old rice paddles. And I sit there and go, What's happening? You know, but when you think about my mother-in-law grew up in the middle of the Vietnam War. She grew up in Vietnam, in the middle of the Vietnam War, where everything was scarce, where they did not know what meal was coming next, where they were dealing with extreme poverty, 13 kids in one house, you know, uh, 12 brothers and sisters. And she's done a great job for what she had to come with. But one of the side effects of that is this thing that she's not aware of. And if we can become aware of that, we can interact with her and we just slowly get rid of things as we can, you know. But it's one of those things because, you know, if you talk to some people and they have something like that, they might feel ashamed about it. You know, and a lot of people um have shame about money. And I want to ask you this because if someone feels ashamed about their money or their money story or their money narratives in their head, where does that usually come from and what should they do about it?

SPEAKER_00 25:34

Yeah, good, good question. Um, it's interesting you bring up hoarding because I I actually see a very clear path between financial trauma and hoarding. Like it's it, I would say more often than not, actually, the hoarding. When when hoarding is driven by trauma, a lot of times it's money related. So it's it's just it it's reinforcing something I really believe. But uh, talking about shame, the two biggest emotions I see around money is fear and shame by far. And uh one thing I think is really helpful when talking about shame is distinguishing it from guilt. Um so guilt is what we feel when we act outside of our values. Uh I have a rough day at work, I come home and I'm I'm snappy with my partner. And I feel guilty afterwards because I don't want to be snappy. That's not how I want to show up in my relationship. Guilt is an uncomfortable emotion, but it can be useful. Like I you can think of them like the rumble strips on the side of a highway. Like it they're a little coarse correction. Guilt can motivate us to change and to apologize to move forward. Shame, on the other hand, is when we look at a behavior and we internalize it as a character flaw. It's not just it's not that I did a bad thing, it's that I am a bad thing. It's not that I made money mistakes, it's that I'm battled money. And shame is the enemy of change. We can't shame ourselves into better financial behavior, and we can't shame ourselves into a better financial situation. Um, it's it's it's the short-term motivator with long-term consequences. And so I I'm pretty adamant about if you're trying to change something, trying to change a behavior, we can have accountability and own that like I've I've made choices and and there are consequences to my choices. And it doesn't do me any good, it doesn't make it doesn't make the world any more just by me beating myself up. Instead, I can hold compassion, I can keep myself accountable, and I can be intentional about what steps I want to take moving forward. Um it's it's so, so common to feel shame around money. Uh shame isn't sorry, I'm trying not to go on a big rant about shame. Do one more thing is shame is a learned emotion. We aren't born with shame, it's something we're taught. And a lot of time shame is coming from external pressure, external judgments, family, friends, society. And okay, a lot of shame comes back to if I'm not part of the group, I'm in danger. Like, like evolutionarily, shame has has meant survival. Um that means I'm part of the group. And that I understand shame. I understand why we have it, but we also can't use it to motivate money change. We have to come from a different place.

SPEAKER_02 28:54

So, what place do you recommend? You know, because if we have to come from a different place, where does it come from? Does it come from affirmation? Does it come from hope? Does it come from something else, a higher level of reasoning? Are we talking Maslow's hierarchy of needs here? What are we looking at? It can't all of those things.

SPEAKER_00 29:12

It's I think it's I do think it comes from what's the opposite of shame. It's uh appropriate valuing of self. I I value myself enough to change something. I I need to value myself enough, even if I'm not feeling that right now, I need to be able to value myself enough to change a behavior. I it's respect for myself, it's respect for the people around me to change. But it's coming from a place of it's because I'm valuable, that the effort that I need to make is worthwhile. It's not coming from a place of I'm not worthwhile unless this effort's made. You are inherently worthwhile. You are worthy, you don't have to prove that. But it's because you're worthy, it's because you're a human being that deserves deserves to, you know, grow and learn and do better. That's why it's that's why we're gonna make the effort to change. It's coming from a place of I already have the value.

SPEAKER_02 30:23

I love that. My daughter the other day um was dealing with some stress, and she got really upset with herself, and she was like, Why am I doing this? And she pounded her leg, and I was like, Well, what's that all about? And I had to kind of reframe it, and I said, Why you don't need to hit yourself when you're upset. She says, But I did something wrong. And I said, Hang on. All right, I'm sitting in front of you. How about this? When you get angry with yourself, you can hit daddy. Well, I don't want to hit you. Why not? Well, because I love you a lot. And I said, then why would you want to hit yourself? If you love yourself, you're the most important person in the world for me. I don't want you hitting yourself because I don't want you feeling bad. And she was like, and I don't know if I did that the right way, but she was able to start looking at herself with some value. And she's like, Well, I am important. And I think that we have to figure out how to reframe that for ourselves, because if we can't see ourselves as valuable, how can we start making the changes that are gonna help us, you know? And I think that um it leads my question to this like, how can someone start feeling more comfortable with money, even if they don't have much yet? Because, you know, anyone can start getting there, but you gotta start that relationship first, you know?

SPEAKER_00 31:44

Yeah, I I think but as I'm trying to change that relationship with money, um is it really is starting to change the relationship with myself and how I treat myself and how I talk to myself and how I'm like these are somewhat basic things, but still really important. Like, am I being kind to myself? Most of us are far harsher with ourselves than we are with other people around us, and like okay, I if my best friend, my lover, spouse, family member, people, someone that I really love, my daughter, if they were talking to themselves the way I'm talking to myself, like you know, would I be okay with that? Would it be like you're right? Like, no. It'd be like, whoa, hey, let's let's be kinder, let's be more gentle. We have to turn that inwards. Um truly, it's only when we're able to be kind and compassionate with ourselves can we start thinking logically about what money choices do I need to make or what plan do I need to make. If I'm stuck in shame, I'm like physiologically, I'm not in my prefrontal cortex, which does the good thinking. I'm in my amygdala, I'm in the fight or flight, I'm in my you know, danger uh emotional headspace. So I have to be able to get into my prefrontal cortex first before I am able to make whatever financial changes I need to make.

SPEAKER_02 33:29

That's amazing because I mean it all starts with self-worth, you know, and it all starts with really loving yourself enough to make those changes. I mean, but that's that can be any changes that you want to make. Maybe you want to get back in shape. Maybe you want to learn something new, learn a new language. Well, you got to love yourself to say, I have the ability to do that. You gotta love yourself to say, I want to take care of my health. And, you know, it's something interesting too, because if we're just talking about one person, it gets way more complicated when you start bringing another person into it. And why do couples fight so much about money? And how can they talk with it, talk to each other without arguing? Because I mean, I look at my wife and I, and we have gotten better with talking about money, but it is still tough. And we have two very different money philosophies. How can people talk about this and interact with each other without you know getting in each other's throat for over it?

SPEAKER_00 34:25

Yeah, I uh super, super common. It's it's one of the things that couples fight about. I think as far as why does it happen, my viewpoint is well, there are differences. Yeah, you grew up differently than she did, and every couple is different. Like you have two individuals that are coming together, they're not the same person. That's a good thing. And the problem is, is when we have a disagreement, which is not a bad thing, we tend to get stuck in cycles. In the therapy world, we call it the couple conflict cycle, where basically my stuff kind of triggers you and your stuff triggers me. We get stuck in this feedback loop. Um, and so you know, a a good starting point is potentially working with a therapist, but also just starting with when we fight, what is the pattern? You know, what what what does the cycle look like? Um, people can do quick search, Google search on couple conflict cycle. And again, I have a worksheet on my my website. Um, but the like figuring out that pattern is a really good starting point. Another really, I think, helpful mental framework is it's not me versus you, it's you and me versus the problem. If I can de-personalize this, like, okay, you're different than me, you have a different idea, that doesn't make you my enemy. That means that you and I as a team have something we need to figure out together, which is awesome. And most couples are actually really good at figuring things out together as long as they can stay out of it's you, you know. If if we can see this as actually we have a shared goal or maybe a shared enemy, then we're on the same team. And when we're on the same team, I can listen more fully, you can listen to me more fully, we can keep our minds open to each other's ideas, and we can generally solve a lot, if not all, of our problems by being on the same team and remembering and holding that and kind of protecting that viewpoint.

SPEAKER_02 36:39

I love that. I love that we're on the same team trying to face at the same problem. You know, it's like two people that have drawn swords on each other versus two people who have drawn swords toward the dragon they're trying to take down, you know? And uh I watched Lord of the Rings recently, and that was why that reference came up, you know. And if if someone right, yeah, if someone I definitely have a little glowing one, it's it's all good, you know. If someone keeps messing up with money, spending too much and avoiding it, what's really going on underneath? You know, or can we know? Is it different for each person?

SPEAKER_00 37:16

Yeah, it's it's definitely different for each person. Like the uh it's kind of one of the reasons it's important not to approach this with a one size fits all thing, is I might overspend because I'm I'm feeling insecure. Uh, you might overspend because you're feeling really happy. We have different triggers for our overspending. Uh, we have different thought processes around, you know, how we come to the decision to overspend. So yes, there's definitely not a one-size-fits-its all. And yet the processes tend to be very similar of we're driven by emotion, we have thoughts and judgments that we make, and then we act on those emotions and those thoughts. If we can kind of move backwards to all right, this is behavior short term. What can I do to change this behavior? I'm gonna put, I'm gonna make engaging in that behavior more annoying. Like adding friction points to behavior is uh honestly a really important thing, especially if we're starting with impulse shopping. Um, how do I make it more annoying to do the thing? But then continue to work back, right? What are the thoughts that I'm having? And I start recognizing when I'm in that thought process, can I start challenging these thoughts? Huge believer in don't believe everything you think. Um and then, and then maybe at this core, what are the emotions? The those feelings that just drive, and and how can I kind of work with that river of emotion rather than fight it, or rather than just getting swept up than it's current.

SPEAKER_02 38:59

And it's so easy to get swept up, and we are it isn't they make it easier and easier. Your your cards are on your phone now. All you gotta do is tap your phone, and it's just like, hey, that's so convenient to spend, you know, versus like maybe locking that card up somewhere that you can't get to it, you know. Or, you know, I I love I gotta get back to it. I love the envelope method where you set aside the cash that you need in an envelope, and then everything else is just forgotten about, you know. I think that's one of the best things that I've ever done financially. I was really able to stick to a budget, and it was, you know, one of the times that I hit my goals. Actually, you know, I was actually hitting all my goals financially at that. So I gotta get back to that. But, you know, one step at a time, you know. But I want to ask you this question too. What's one small habit someone can start today to have a better relationship with money?

SPEAKER_00 39:54

Yeah. Um, you know, we I've been talking about patterns, recognition of thoughts and and feelings. Uh, something I encourage some people to do is it's we'll call a money journal, where basically you keep a journal of and when and maybe you keep it in your glove box or something. But when you go shopping, or you know, when you're out and you're spending money, you write down what what did I spend, you know, where at, but also what was I feeling before, during, and after. I went to Target, feeling happy beforehand, during, uh happy afterwards, guilty or whatever. It's really helpful to when it comes to our relationship with money to see the patterns. And honestly, we usually don't see the patterns unless we make a point of seeing the patterns. Like, like I'm gonna do this thing, I'm gonna keep this notebook in my glove box. That is a really important starting point. I think it's it's just like, oh, okay. I'm learning things about my relationship with money based on what I'm feeling and like how my feelings are affecting the choices.

SPEAKER_02 41:16

I love that. I love that. I want to ask you another question here. Like, how do you know if your money habits are actually helping you or hurting you?

SPEAKER_00 41:26

Well, I think there's the math answer, which is is this, you know, is my financial situation changing for the better or not? Am I able to save? Am I paying off debt or am I staying out of debt? Am I, you know, all that kind of stuff. I think there's a math answer that I think maybe a deeper answer that I like is is what I'm doing aligning with my values?

SPEAKER_02 41:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:52

Like is when I when I look at my behavior, does it align with how I want to show up? Um, not just with money, but uh with everything. And if your behavior is aligned with your values, I honestly don't think there's anything more that we can hope for. Like I think that is it. Does my behavior align with my values? Then I'm living the good life, you know.

SPEAKER_02 42:17

That's a mic drop moment right there, man. Where can people go to find out more about you and what you do?

SPEAKER_00 42:24

Yeah, um, so feel free to just Google search, Nathan Asshole, financial therapist. Um, I'm on LinkedIn. My my clinical practice is called the Financial Therapy Clinical Institute, which is a really long name, but um, you might see a shirt into FTCI. But I'm fairly easy to find if you if you do a quick Google search. But yeah, please, if you listen to this, feel free to reach out. I'm happy to give resources. Um, and I I really do care about this. I really care about people being able to get this information because financial therapy is such a small little group of people, and yet it's something that affects literally every human on the earth.