Fear Runs Your Wallet | Joy Slabaugh | Growing Money with Sean Trace

Money is never just money - and this episode of Growing Money proves it. 

I sat down with Joy Slabaugh, a CFP turned licensed trauma counselor, who's spent her career at the exact intersection of finance and emotional healing. 

Joy walked me through why our anxiety around money almost always traces back to three deep human needs: safety, freedom, or connection. 

We got into the "eating cat food alone" fear that shows up again and again in her sessions with wealthy clients, why financial advisors are rarely trained to sit with emotion, and how compulsive spending, hoarding, or even chasing the next dollar often has nothing to do with logic and everything to do with a story we inherited. 

What's the earliest memory you have about money, and do you think it's still shaping how you handle it today?

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

So the way you frame that, Sean, is so accurate. Yes, I agree with you that money almost never is about just the money. In my experience, many times money comes down to one of three things. It's not always this, but a lot of times it's one of these, or some combination of these three things. It represents either safety and security, or it represents freedom and independence, or it represents connection with family, friends, and people, people we love, or maybe some combination of this. I find that a lot of times when you when you talk with people about money and what's motivating them, the things they want to do with money, for example. And when you really dig down and drill down, one of these three is usually involved somewhere with this person. Sometimes more than that. And it's just, I think there's because we have these universal needs to feel safe and secure, to feel freedom and ability to act self-actualize as well as to feel connection with others.

SPEAKER_03 1:07

Well, welcome everybody back to the Grand Money with Sean Trace Podcast. I have an awesome guest with me today, which like to tell people who you are and a little bit about what you do.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

Sure. My name is Joyce Labaugh, and I help wealthy folks transform how they engage with money, shifting it from a source of stress and isolation to one of connection, impact, and lasting fulfillment. And I came to this by way of being a financial advisor for many, many years, then being a licensed trauma counselor and therapist and realizing there's actually an opportunity to work at the intersection of these two careers.

SPEAKER_03 1:43

I love that. Talk to me about both how did you get into finance, like personal finance, and then how did you get into working with trauma?

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Yeah. So I fell into finance. I was working my way through college and I needed a job. And a financial advisor hired me to answer the phones and fill out paperwork. And so I saw up close, wow, this financial planning stuff is really cool. It's got creative problem solving, it's got just enough nerdy analytics, has lots of relational management relationship management. I was like, this could work for me. So after I graduated, I got licensed, I got my CFP designation. I started taking all clients. I became a, I was really the successor for the firm and I was running the firm. And then I decided life happened and I decided I wanted to work for a larger firm. And so I went to work for Vanguard and I worked for Vanguard for over a decade. And while I was at Vanguard, I did very some really cool things, really intellectually engaging stuff. Um I was an advisor, I invented products and services for advice clients, for advisors to help them deepen their relationships with clients. And by the end of my career, I was advising multi-billion dollar clients. And I just had reached the point, though, where I was like, you know, while I'm solving some problems, I'm also creating another set of problems. And I was like, I don't know that this is really how I want to spend the rest of my life helping wealthy people get more wealthy. So I decided to make a career change. And I was planning on a complete pivot into counseling. I was like, you know, if I can put my dog down, just in here, if I can help a few people heal from trauma, now that feels like a wife, a life well lived. So I went back to grad school, studied counseling. And then when I started working as a therapist, I people still talk to me about Mount Money. And I was like, what happened? I left the money world, but the money has followed me. And that's where I when I realized, oh, a lot of therapists get really uncomfortable talking about money. And I knew from my time in the planning industry that a lot of planners are really allergic to emotions. And so that leaves this giant gap where people supposed to go to get support with these really big emotions that money brings up. And so that's when I decided to combine my two careers.

SPEAKER_03 4:04

That's an awesome journey, by the way. And it's awesome that you are kind of putting them all together in a way that's very organic. Because I mean, money isn't just money. And I've I've heard I've seen you say that. Money is never just money. What do you think people are really chasing when they chase wealth? Can I, can I, can I, can I, before I go into that? Yeah. I got to study acting with a great teacher named Ivana Chubik. I was, I did some, and she taught some wonderful acting uh Oscar winners, and she's just an amazing coach. And hopefully I get to go see her next month. It's the plan. Um, in Japan, which is gonna be pretty cool. But her technique is focused on goals. And one of the things that you realize is that your character will always have a certain set of goals that they are trying to realize. Things like so if you're your character wants to get paid or get some money, it's never about the money. Maybe the money represents safety, maybe the money represents power, maybe the money represents this unfulfilled desire, you know, and like you have these deeper things that are motivating all of this outside stuff. And like as an actor, it's great. But like what I love about Ivana's technique is like it's not just a technique about acting, it's a technique about life. And I want to ask you that question again now. With that in mind, why do you think, or what do you think people are really chasing when they chase wealth?

SPEAKER_00 5:34

So the way you frame that, Sean, is so accurate. Yes, I agree with you that money almost never is about just the money. In my experience, many times money comes down to one of three things. It's not always this, but a lot of times it's one of these, or some combination of these three things. It represents either safety and security, or it represents freedom and independence, or it represents connection with family, friends, people, people we love, or maybe some combination of this. I find that a lot of times when you when you talk with people about money and what's motivating them, the things they want to do with money, for example, and when you really dig down and drill down, one of these three is usually involved somewhere with this person. Sometimes more than that. And it's just, I think there's because we have these universal needs to feel safe and secure, to feel freedom and ability to act self-actualize, as well as to feel connection with others.

SPEAKER_03 6:44

Take your water, don't worry. It is totally normal.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

Cool, thanks. Yeah, a little a little tickle, so I'll try to mute so that people aren't getting me coughing in the bike, but it's all good.

SPEAKER_03 6:57

Coughing's natural, it's normal. True. Well, I want to ask this too, because you know, with with money and finance, there are so many layers emotionally that are going on. And, you know, you said it like there is this adverse nature that people have um to talking about money. And you know, therapists are like, I I found that so many of my major problems were actually financial problems, and I was trying to work them the other way around. I'm like, why am I I feel sad every day and I feel anxious, and I was trying to work the anxiety, but really I was just broke. And like when I started addressing the fact that actually there's a fundamental financial problem underneath all this, uh, it made it much easier for me to um figure out ways through all of this, you know? And so I want to ask you a question because if someone were to come to you and say, hey, why do so many smart, successful people still feel anxious about money even when they objectively have enough? What might you say?

SPEAKER_00 8:13

Mm-hmm. Well, first I would say that's really normal and common. I know, I mean, I've worked with wealthy people most of my career. And occasionally you come across people who feel really calm and chill about their money, but that's that's not actually the norm. A lot of people find money really stressful. And I think it's I think it's helpful to remember that money is a relatively new invention in humankind. We've had money for about 5,000 years or so. And we have evolved recently to this place where money represents worth and our value as a human. But humans have been around a lot longer than 5,000 years, right? And our value and worth can be found elsewhere. But we live in a culture that tells us our value and worth is in our net worth, in the things we buy, in the clothes we wear, in the what we portray to the world. And so I think many times we're feeling this disconnect of like, well, what and we want something more to represent our value and worth. And so that discomfort and stress we feel about money can be an indicator that, like, oh, maybe it's an opportunity to look deeper. Now, let me caveat, because I think you made a really good point, Sean, that there are some people where, yeah, the problems they're facing are money problems and they need more money. And we're in this, we're in this place economically where it's bifurcating. They call it the K-shaped economy, right? The wealthy people have more and the everyone else has less, essentially. And so there are more and more people that they really need is a little bit more money to be able to pay the bills, honestly. And then there's a separate set of people who have more than enough money and are still unhappy. And that's that's the folks where it's like, well, maybe there's an opportunity to look deeper beneath the surface beyond the money.

SPEAKER_03 10:10

I love that, you know, because it's like, I think that there is trauma in a lot of different places. And people can deal with that and hold on to it for a long time. And they don't always know where it came from, you know? And uh, you know, it's kind of challenging to figure out how to get to the bottom of that sometimes. Because when you're working through all this stuff and you're sitting there going, you know, what was where did this start? You know, and like you're sitting there trying to figure that all out. I want to ask you a question. Like, you've worked with wealthy clients in trauma counseling. What surprised you most about the emotional side of wealth?

SPEAKER_00 10:55

Mm-hmm. I think what surprised me the most. Well, there's kind of a couple ways to answer that question. What surprised me the most about the emotional side of wealth, kind of broadly generally, is that this is pretty universal, that we all have feelings about money. It sounds so obvious hearing me say it, right? It's like, oh, of course we do. But oh, our our culture hammers home. Oh, these are logical decisions and just it's just math, right? Just add it up. It does it add up or does it not? But it's not just math and it's not just spreadsheets. There's meaning attached to all of this, and we all have different stories of meaning of what money means to us. Some of it's from our culture, some of it's from our families, some of it's from the experiences that we had throughout our life, all of this layered in and shaped. What are the stories that give money meaning to us? Right. And yeah, and I and you know, people often would like want to reduce it to be like, well, I just want more of it and I'll be fine. Like, no, actually, having gotten to work with people who have a lot of money, there is a point where more money actually does not increase your satisfaction or happiness. Somebody did a study about 20 years ago, and the point 20 years ago was about $75,000. Anything you needed $75,000 to pay your bills, anything beyond that was not, did not increase your happiness. Now, with inflation, that would be a bit more now, probably around $90 to $100,000. Um, but yeah, there's a point beyond that that like more money is not going to increase your happiness and satisfaction. What can increase your happiness and satisfaction is getting curious about the stories that we have around money and what shaped these stories.

SPEAKER_03 12:49

I love that. I love that. Well, I want to ask you too, do you do you think most financial advisors are actually trained to handle emotional realities of money or just spreadsheets?

SPEAKER_00 13:02

Well, when we look at the industry as a whole, yeah, most folks are more about the spreadsheets. But I get really excited because I see this younger generation of advisors who are joining the field, also career changers, people who started in one field and then decided to become a planner. They're the ones who are doing more in the emotional space. And I want to give credit. There are some pioneers over the last 15, 20 years, some pioneers who really helped. They were started talking about this and doing this. People were like, You, what is what is wrong with you? This is about spreadsheets, right? And they're like, no, this is more. It's more.

SPEAKER_02 13:41

Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

And so they're pioneers who paved the way. And then now we see this newer class of advisors who are joining, who are like, yeah, money's emotional. And we need to be well versed in how we talk about it. And we need to be have the skills, build the skills to be able to meet people on the emotional side of money. Um, and yes, help them with the technical and the spreadsheets, and also help them with understanding what money means to them and how to use money as a tool to create a life of meaning and fulfillment and connection.

SPEAKER_03 14:16

I love that because it is about finding that place of fulfillment, that place of feeling, I don't know how I would describe it, feeling um safe, feeling hopeful, feeling like you're not floundering. I remember when I was a kid, I was swimming in a big swimming pool, and I'm laying in the swim, I'm swimming in the swimming pool, and it's one of those wave pools. Um and it was very, very scary for me because uh as I'm in that swimming pool, the water was coming over my head, and I felt a bit overwhelmed. I felt like I was floundering, I felt like I was going under. And I remember at that moment that a hand reached down and caught my hand and pulled me out. And it was this moment of just like, I'm safe. I am safe. And it was, it was just one of the best things ever. And I feel like so many of us need that same moment uh financially. We need that hand to reach down to grab us and to pull us up and out of the water because so many of us are floundering. And I wanted to ask you, because you know, for people that feel like they're floundering, like emotionally, how can they start getting in touch with some of that, those spaces that they're dealing with this trauma and move through it, you know?

SPEAKER_00 16:10

There's a lot of different weight avenues, and it really kind of depends on what works for the person. But I'll share a couple that maybe will resonate with your listeners. So, one is getting clear about where and how you're able to access calm. For many people, that's deep outside in nature, is like a pretty easy way of going a beautiful day, you know, you're out amongst some trees in the shade, whatnot. For a lot of people, that's a really easy way to access calm. But whatever your method is, where you can access calm, do accessing some calm. And then from that place of calm, are you able to get curious about what money means to you? And something that can be really helpful. Actually, I was gonna do offer. So I could like guide people through a little visualization thing they could do right now, but I don't know how that works for you from a time standpoint, Sean. So also I could just describe it.

SPEAKER_03 17:12

Describe it as good. Walk us through it. Whatever you think would be most fun. I mean, I'm down either way.

SPEAKER_00 17:18

Okay, cool. So I'll I mean I'll just I'll kind of walk you through it. And if you're listening, you can pause at each prompt that I give, pause the podcast, reflect internally, and then resume and hear the next prompt. Because normally I would give like a minute between prompts, and that's gonna use a lot of your podcast time shot. So that'll be my my adjustment here. So I'll invite you to imagine you get to this place of calm, right? And then when you're in that place of calm, imagine a room that's like a clear room. Um that you can you're outside the room that you can see into this, and inside the room is a chair. And then imagine on the chair is a giant pile of money. And then just notice, you're outside the room, you're looking at this room, this chair full of money, and notice what reactions come up inside of you, or the feelings that come up inside of you, and just notice. And so if you're listening to like doing this along as you're listening, you can just pause here and give yourself time to notice. And so then after you've noticed, you've come back to the podcast here, whatever those feelings are or those thoughts are that you're noticing coming up as you look at that money, acknowledge it just to yourself. You can just let yourself know you see it, that you're having these feelings, thoughts, reactions to the money, and just acknowledge it. And then after you acknowledge it, you can see if those thoughts and feelings would be anything they want you to understand about them and see if you can just extend curiosity to those thoughts, feelings, images and just notice whatever however they respond, what they say to you, how they respond. And then when you're done with that, you may want to jot it down in a journal, or you may just want to notice what happened and be with that. But like that's a little exercise that you can do repeatedly, honestly, and just really like pause it, give yourself time and space to be with it. There's a lot you can learn about yourself around you and money.

SPEAKER_03 19:48

I love that. I think that a lot of people don't realize what they feel about money. I remember when I was a kid, I walked in and I saw a lot of money on a chair once. This is one of my foundational money memories. And when you were talking about this, I recognized something. When I was a kid, my uncle Ian was bigger than life. He was a doctor who was uh family patriarch. He was my dad's older brother, and he was a radiologist, and he worked in rural North Carolina, and when the uh hospital that he worked at was like, uh, we, you know, he was like, hey, there's a new technology that can't came out, it's called a CAT scan. We need one in the hospital. Said, yeah, that's too much money. We can't afford a CAT scan machine. Yeah. And so he bought it himself. And uh then they were like, okay. And then he, anyone who came and used the CAT scan, paid him. Paid him. And then later on, he uh did another thing. He did a uh MRI machine. He's like, hey guys, we need this machine, it's very important, it's called an MRI. And they're like, yeah, we can't afford that. He bought the MRI and installed it himself. So anyone in that part of Western North Carolina that wanted an MRI went to him. So he made an obscene amount of money uh because of these these machines that were very useful. And like he was he gave back, he helped everyone. He was a good human being and he cared, and everyone knew Doc Trace. And if someone was in need, he helped all the time. Now, a couple things that I remember is like back at that time, 80s, you know, uh, it was different. And the way that people interacted with money was different. There weren't ATMs everywhere. You had stuff at the bank. You went to the bank, and when you were at the bank, you uh would withdraw money and then you would go on a trip. So when he traveled, he took cash with him. He took a lot of cash with him. And it was something that was like just what was done. And I remember once he came to visit us, and we were across the state in a different area, and he uh he came with about $10,000 and a money clip in his pocket. And when he left our house, it fell out of his pocket and was in our house. He just, it was sitting there, and it was sitting in the middle of our living room in this recliner chair. And I walk into the room and I find this money clip of $10,000. And I was just like, woohoo, yay! I'm rich. And what was wild is that uh, yeah, at least I wasn't rich. It was not my money. It was, you know, obviously my uncle's money. And my dad quickly called him on his 1980s cell phone and said, come back, you forgot your money here. Uh but what was wild was that in that moment when I picked up that money, to me, there were so many things that I felt. But one of the biggest was I felt possibility. I felt that there was this possibility to do things that I might never have had the ability to do or to be able to buy or have. Doors were opening and I felt safe. And I recognized the reason that he always felt safe was because around him was that he had that abundance mindset around him, you know, and it wasn't like there was this lack mindset, and that was something that I had been growing up around. And so when you describe that, it's very interesting to think about that and go back to that time that, you know, I think everyone has those early events, you know, and we don't always know where they come from. But you know, I want to ask you this because it makes me think some more about like what's one money behavior that sounds irrational in the service, but actually makes total sense once you understand someone's story.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think about someone who would compulsively buy things well beyond the point of need. For example, they had half a dozen cars. It was just them. It's not like a family, they're outfitting of cars. One person, half a dozen cars. And I mean, you might look at that and think, like, whoa, you know, how rational is that? And I mean, if some um to be fair, like this gets glamorized in some films about like, you know, wealthy people, they have like all their cars, but this person wasn't like that level of wealthy, and they have all these cars and they keep buying cars. And when we get curious and get beneath the surface, we find out that there were some deep childhood wounds um with their with their dad. And yeah, money represented love growing up. They didn't receive a lot of love. And when their dad would spend money impulsively, that was the closest thing they got to feeling love. And so we learned that when they would impulsively go and buy a car, it's because there was a part of them that really longed to be loved and feel loved. And so they would go impulsively make just this purchase. And for a brief moment, it would tend to that deep wound that longed for love. And then of course, it didn't last though. Um and I've what I think is so interesting, and I don't should say this is like an amalgamation of stories to protect, you know, confidentiality and privacy and stuff like that. Um, but this is something that I see, have seen repeatedly. And what I think is really fascinating is that no matter how outlandish the financial behavior, when we approach it with curiosity, we always, always find out there is a fact set that exists where this behavior makes a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_03 26:36

Right? You just have to figure out why. You know, one of the things that's interesting to me is that I live, I I live part-time in in Southeast Asia with my wife and her family. And we come from very different backgrounds. And my mother-in-law is a massive hoarder, like massive hoarder. She does not throw anything out, and it is very challenging for us at times because we have these very different things. I'm like, why are we collecting so many plastic bags? I don't get it. And yet, um, you know, she just can't throw anything out. We have bags upon bags upon bags of plastic bags. And I'm just like, first of all, why don't we bring bags to the market instead of just picking plastic bags? But she saves everything. And, you know, and it's just not bags, it's like all of these things that just get saved for for uh endless amounts of time. But why I'm bringing this up is because when I go back and I understand her a little bit more, well, you know, she also was growing up in the middle of the Vietnam War when there was a lot of lack, when there was a lot of um scarcity, you know, and if you think about those causative factors, suddenly what seems outlandish, like, why is this person doing this? Has a very firm root to reality, even if you can't see it so clearly, there is a reason, you know? And doesn't mean you're gonna like the reason, but it's there, you know? And I think that one of the things that I've been trying to do with myself is to try to go deeper and to figure out what are my own money motivations, you know, because it's not always logical. Um, and you've you've talked about how logic doesn't work when someone's nervous system is activated. So when like market crashes or people panic, what should people do or advisors do differently when that fear sets in?

SPEAKER_00 28:50

Mm-hmm. So there's what you do in the moment, and then there's also what you can do in advance to prepare people for this. So in the moment when you're feeling panic because the market is crashing or price of oil is spiking and gas is price of gas is spiking, right? These major market events are happening. Um, what you can do for yourself, or if you're an advisor listening, what you can do for clients is um really try to access your calm. Like starting with that, like what do you need to do to access your calm? And then from a place of calm, can you bring some compassion to this? Well, like, of course, people are upset when things are when things are happening, right? It makes sense to be upset, frankly. So a little compassionate normalization can go a long way. And that when as people feel heard, their frustrations, their fears feel heard, then that's when they start to calm down. Um and and so getting curious about what the what are they afraid will happen, and even like play that out, like and then what, and then what, and then what? Right. And that's where you can really get to like the core of the fear. And many times, many, many times, and I've had these conversations with clients, financial clients, it's uncanny how many times the core fear comes back to, I'm afraid I'm gonna end up penniless and alone eating cat food. There's something very specific about eating cat food that features in a lot of people's fears. And um, and so like, and when you hear that, then like, can you offer compassion? Like, well, of course that's scary. Like, of course you don't want to end up eating cat food. They offer that compassionate normalizing. And then when people really feel heard, then you can ask, like, okay, are you open to some other perspectives on this? Um, and many times once they're calm, they're like, Yes. And then again, it's like every and then everything you say, you tie it back to their fear. I hear that you're afraid of being penniless, of eating cat food, of being alone, of um running out of money. I hear that fear. And this is not a but, this is an and. This is a fear, and we've, if if you're a skilled advisor, you have prepared for this moment and you tell them, like, we've prepared for this moment. We built you a portfolio to withstand the ups and the downs. This is the downs right now, right? And we prepared for this, and you're okay. And I know it doesn't feel like it right now, but we prepared for this. And this is going to change. It does, it does not last forever. And we prepared for it. Like, and you can then show them like all the ways that they're prepared for it, that they're gonna be okay. Um, so this is how like in the moment, advisors um can really help folks with this. What you can also do though in advance is before you reach these moments, if you're an advisor or yourself, you manage your own money. If you're an advisor, get curious and ask this. If you're for you, get curious about what money means to you, right? Like what for me, I've learned money means security and safety. That is what money means for me. That I want to make sure that I'm okay. And knowing that is very important for me. It does inform how I manage my finances and for advisors as well. Like if it's security and safety, it's it's freedom, independence, opportunity, if it's ability to connect with family and friends, like knowing that you help build the portfolio with that in mind. And also you tie all of your recommendations to that. It's like, okay, so we're doing your portfolio this way so that you're gonna feel safe and secure, whether the market's up or whether the market's down, right? Or like we're building your portfolio this way so that you have freedom and opportunity in the good times and in the bad times. Um, and you you weave this throughout all your communications with them. So then that way, when their market events are happening and they're really upset by it, you're reminding of them. Like, you're still acknowledging, yes, it's scary, yes, it's hard. And it, and then when they're, you know, when they feel really heard, then you come back to your like, remember, we've talked about this and we prepared for this. This is the moment we have been preparing for, and you're okay, and it's gonna be okay.

SPEAKER_03 33:17

I think that there's so many things that are scary to do in life. And when we get there, looking through to the other side is a terrifying thing. But only by looking through, by going through, by pushing through, can we get to a place that we don't have that fear anymore? You know, I hate flying. When I was a kid, I was on a flight with my dad. I was like 10 years old. My dad took me on this business trip with him. We flew from Idaho down to Dallas, and I got to go with my dad on this business trip. It was wonderfully fun. We got to see all of these cool things. I went to this convention with him, and my mom thought it would be great for me to bond with him. We were leaving Dallas, and we're going down the runway, and the plane's taken off, and we hear this big explosion. And the plane slams back down on the ground. Smoke is filling up in the cabin. And the pilot gets on after the plane stops, and he's like, ladies and gentlemen, uh, we have good news and bad news. And I'm just like, anybody's anytime someone says we've got good news and bad news, it's like, it's bad news. Like, it is bad news happening. And so the guy said that, and I was like, What's going on? And then he came on and he said this. He's like, um, well, the good news is, or the bad news is, uh, we just had a generator explode on the plane. And he says, the good news is it happened on the ground. And we were like, and then like after that, our plane, our flight got canceled. They started bumping everyone all these other flights to get people back to their destination. They put us on this little twin-engine turboprop that's bouncing over the Rocky Mountains. After that time, I was terrified of flying. And I've hated flying for many, many, many, many years. I would fly places, but if I could, I would just stay home. And uh it caused me to miss friends' weddings, it caused me to do all these things. That this last year, my wife uh got a lot of work internationally, and I needed to go with her for different reasons because I do the media for her, and she's a famous singer in Vietnam, and I was filming and doing video and content and all that. And I had to go through that challenge. I had to go through it. But on the other side of it was this beautiful experience and just this absolute magic of seeing all of these things that I got to see the last two years because of being willing to step out of my comfort zone. And I think that that financial freedom is something that people are so desperate to see, but we don't know how to get there. And I mean, social media is not helping, you know, it makes us feel even more insecure. Like, and I want to ask you that. Do you think social media has made people feel more financially insecure even when they're doing okay?

SPEAKER_00 36:14

No, I feel like at this point we have had social media long enough that there are studies. And yeah, social media, there are not very many benefits to social media any longer. There's a lot more harms that come out of social media in terms of anxiety and um in terms of it being feeling hard to feel content with where you are and what you have. Uh, yeah, so short answer no. Right. Social media is not very helpful.

SPEAKER_03 36:42

It is not helping right now. And one of the things, too, that I think is a major challenge is that we don't have clarity. You know, my daughter is built like me. And she is a mixed-race kid that's grown up in Vietnam, and she is head and shoulders taller than all of her classmates. And she has all of these people. I don't know what's up with the school cleaners, but they love to come up and body shame her. It's frustrating for me. Yeah, yeah. Oh, you have no idea. And yet it's just they come up to her and go, you need to eat more, you're too skinny, you're too skinny, you need to eat more, you're too skinny. And I I told my wife, and my wife is like, there are cultural differences here that you just have to understand. But when I talk to my daughter, I sit there and go, and she's like, Am I this? Am I that? And I said, Ailani, you are you. You exercise, you go to Muay Thai three days a week, you do dance class, you run around like crazy, you are tall and lean like your father. Do you feel hungry? No, I eat a lot. I feel good. Do you feel okay? I feel great. I feel I love going to dance class and doing this stuff. And I said, then let it go. You're where you're at. You are who you are, and that's your baseline. And I think a lot of people don't realize their baseline because we're so programmed to see someone else's baseline. I was thinking about this the other day. Uh, I saw a guy driving a BMW 7 series in town today and such a beautiful car. And I was like, wow, that's a beautiful car. And I was riding my motorbike, and for a second I was like, I'd love to have that BMW 7 series. But then all of a sudden I thought, and I looked over to the right side of me, and there was a person riding a bicycle. And they were probably looking at me, going, wow, I wish I had that scooter that he had. And then there was a person to next to them that was walking that was probably looking at the bicycle, going, man, I wish I had that bicycle. It'd be so much easier. We don't know where we're fitting into this whole thing. But if we can learn to be happy, content, and value where we're at, and our normal doesn't mean you can't grow, doesn't mean you can't try to get to a new place. But it means also finding the peace in that present moment and just living it and enjoying it.

SPEAKER_00 39:09

Something I would love to add on to what you're sharing is this idea of when is enough enough. Right. And there's there's uh somebody who did this really interesting research asking people of different amounts of wealth if they think they're wealthy. And the answer invariably was no. There was always someone else who had a little bit more. They were wealthy, but the person they were at who was answering the question was not wealthy. And I find this really fascinating. It gets to what you're saying, right? That yes, there, unless you're, I guess, Elon Musk, there's always somebody who has more money than you do, or more cars, or more clothes, or more houses, or whatever. Um, and so it can be very easy to be dissatisfied with what we have. And yet, there is also to the point you're making, there is opportunity. Like that is simply a mindset piece of like, are you content with what you have? Well, actually, let me let me caveat that. Up to a certain point, that is a that is a mindset shift. I want to acknowledge that there are some folks who actually do not have enough to eat, safe place to live, um, healthy. Right. So, like that is real, and that is not a mindset shift to fix that. That is like structural things that need to once your basic needs are met.

SPEAKER_03 40:27

Maslow's hierarchy of me needs. Yeah, you gotta have that basic level first. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:32

Right, right. Once your basic needs are met, though, then our satisfaction and contentment is a mindset piece. And this can be really freeing of like, oh, what if you don't have to chase to get the next unit of wealth, if you will? What if you could be okay with what you have now? And what would that mean for your life if you weren't having to chase and strive and just get a little bit more so you can hit the, you know, notch the next rung in the wealth accumulation game, if you will. Um so I I love what you're sharing, and I do think that that is there is opportunity for a lot of people to be content with what, to feel content with what they have, um, if they want to. And it comes down to a mindset shift, provided their basic needs are met.

SPEAKER_03 41:20

I love that. And I think that that is, it is again, um just can you sit where you're at in that present moment and be peaceful? Be just content to breathe at that place, you know, because I think sometimes people have a hard time with that, you know, and I want to ask you this too, because you know, one of the things that I think is is a deal that if someone right now is sitting listening and they realize they have an unhealthy relationship with money, where do you think they even begin to start fixing it?

SPEAKER_00 42:00

Well, I would say that if they realize they have an unhealthy relationship with money, they've already started. Because recognizing that something feels off, that is the first step.

unknown 42:12

Right.

SPEAKER_00 42:12

And so if that's you as you're listening, congratulations. You've started the first step. And then so then it's what what what might be the next step? And maybe, maybe the next step is that you're sitting with that discomfort for a bit, the realization of, ooh, my relationship with money, I think I'd like it to be different than what it is. Maybe it's just sitting with that realization and the discomfort. Or maybe it's you want to reach out to someone for help. And that could be talking with your therapist, seeing if your therapist is going to talk with you about money, not all of them are. Could be reaching out to a financial therapist. That's a new emerging field. Um, folks that specialize in that. It also could be just spending some time journaling about money and what it means to you, and remembering the messages and stories about money that you've gotten throughout your life and how you've internalized them. There's there's so many different ways that you can take that next step. Um, lots of opportunities. And the first thing though is recognizing, oh, I want this to be, I feel this feels uncomfortable. I'd like it to be a little bit different. It's a props to you if that's where you are.

SPEAKER_03 43:24

Right. I if someone uh would like to find out more about you and what you do, where should they go and where should they look for you?

SPEAKER_00 43:33

My website is joyslayball.com. That's joyjoy. Slayball is s is and sam l-a b as and boy a u g.com. I have a lot of information about me and what I do on the website. And there's also an opportunity to schedule a little quick intro with me that we could get to know each other a bit and see if there's opportunities to partner in any way.