E32: Inclusive by Design: Elevating UX / UI for Web Accessibility and Inclusion

In this episode of the United in Accessibility podcast, we delve into the world of accessibility with Ondřej Pohl, Accessibility Director at ACTUM Digital. Ondřej shares insights on his journey in promoting web accessibility, highlighting the importance of education, practical approaches, and the evolving landscape of inclusive design.

Transcript

00:04 Speaker  

Welcome to the IAAP United in Accessibility podcast, the podcast where we dive deep into the world of inclusion and accessibility. Our guest today is Ondřej Pohl, CPWA, Accessibility Director at ACTUM Digital in Prague. With over 11 years of experience in UX and UI design Ondřej is on a mission to make the internet more accessible. His leadership and design teams, coupled with his passion for education and community engagement underscores his commitment to advancing accessibility in digital spaces. Notably, he initiated and nurtured a Design Internship Program at ACTUM Digital, demonstrating his proactive approach to fostering talent and driving positive change. As an IAAP Certified Professional in Web Accessibility, Ondřej expertise in accessibility audits, WCAG 2.1 compliance and inclusion strategies is exceptional. Don't miss his valuable insights on web accessibility on the United in Accessibility podcast.

01:06 Christopher Michael Lee  

Ondřej, I want to welcome you to the IAAP podcast United in Accessibility is great to have you today. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and why you're in the field of accessibility? 

01:18 Ondřej Pohl, CPWA  

Sure. Thanks for having me. So, I would like to start, you know, talking about myself as a human being, you know, because most of the people, when I ask, or we talk about that? "Who are you?" They are talking about what they do in a job. So, I'm a human being and I'm also a father of two. And I have an amazing and supporting wife, which is I think important, when you are in some kind of managing role, because it's really a lot of times time consuming. And I would describe myself as a broadly focused accessibility professional. I'm also invested in the government and public sector, where we are trying, you know, to make a systematic change. And also, we help them with accessibility here and there. I also run my own podcast about accessibility. With my partner in crime, Radek Pavlíček, you probably know him, it's called Bez bariér, which means without barriers, in ACTUM Digital, in here in Czech Republic in Prague, I'm in charge of accessibility services that we provide. Finally, I would like to say one thing, that my own personal focus is education. Because I think that this is the best and safest way to make work accessible. So, I teach at universities, I speak at conferences, and you know, try and do training for companies and things like that, because without education, it's really hard to understand what accessibility is and how we can work together to make it, truly make it happen.

02:46 Christopher Michael Lee  

That's interesting, just a little bit on the education because I taught also, prior to what I'm doing now, are you teaching undergraduate or graduate students and what in?

02:56 Ondřej Pohl, CPWA  

It's like, students who study in fifth year, when university, so they do master’s degree at the moment, so they are already, they should already have some kind of knowledge about what they're studying. And their main focus is design. So, they are studying about design and research, I teach few lectures about accessibility in a in a subject, design of user interfaces.

03:21 Christopher Michael Lee  

And you've had a long history of this just over decades, right, of working in UX and UI design. How have you seen the landscape change or evolve over this period of time?

03:31 Ondřej Pohl, CPWA  

You know, I think it's evolved right, in some way. But I think it's really far from ideal. You know, one of the things I think is really good is to design systems, right? This is the thing that a lot of times you can see, you know, design projects, right now, and even years ago, but right now, it's really spreading. Unfortunately, you cannot use design system for every project, because it doesn't make sense for some small websites, more application to make a design system, but it's really good because you can already bake the accessibility into the components in the design system, and then reuse it. So, some of the work you do not want to do, you can already reuse, right? If I look in on the three pillars of accessibility, at least this I can see design, development and content. I think the design sector or designers are the ones who are furthest in accessibility. And I think it's because especially for the UX part, because their connection to the users, it really makes sense. You know, because people with disabilities are still the same users as people without them. Right. So, what I can see, you know, when I teach, and train people are the designers are those that already have the most knowledge in all those three factors.

04:03 Christopher Michael Lee  

Yeah, I would agree with you on that. We've got so much work to do without developers. It seems like the developers; I'd love to know your thoughts on this. Especially the newer developers, the younger developers, they want something done fast and cool. Is not understanding the business logic the coding behind the scenes, it's that moving quickly and then moving to the whole content side of it. I mean, that's a whole other ball of wax in the sense of really training and educating people in that area. Just your thoughts on the developers and content where we at? 

05:15 Ondřej Pohl, CPWA  

Yeah, you know, developers, it's like, you described that a lot of times the reuse code uses forth party code and stuff like that, which is not accessible most of the time, unfortunately. And as you say, you know, they, you know, the times before, I was not, you know, born maybe in the time, or I was not working the time where the there was like, clean HTML, that was the times where the websites were accessible, right. But right now, with all the CSS, JavaScript and all the other bells and whistles, it makes really the things inaccessible. So yeah, most of the people say like, accessibility is about code. So, the developers should do it, right? I say, yes, it's a part of that, right, but it starts with the design. So, if the design is already not accessible, it could be impossible for developer to make it even accessible in some like, time manner, right? Yeah. And with the content, I think it's getting better, especially if we talk about captions, you can see captions nowadays, pretty much everywhere, even social media are not telling about the quality of them. Right now, you can see I call it "karaoke style, captions", which are really horrible and really hard time to focus on them. And you can see them everywhere, right? So, there are good and bad things about captions. But if you compare it to five years ago, there are many more captions tight now. If we talk about streaming services, like Netflix, and stuff like that, you can see audio descriptions and loads of titles, right, which was not there before. So, I think like content wise, especially with making audio visual content accessible, it's getting much better nowadays, especially also because of the AI and stuff like that. Right? 

06:45 Christopher Michael Lee  

So, talking about AI. I am going to throw it at you, I'm going to throw it at you. Are you ready? 

06:52 Ondřej Pohl, CPWA  

Yes. 

06:53 Christopher Michael Lee  

Overlays? Are your thoughts of what's going on with how overlays are impacting accessibility?

07:00 Ondřej Pohl, CPWA  

Yeah, this is one my favorite and also not favorite topic, because giving them much attention, they do not deserve it. But yes, you know, the thing is that I think everybody who's you know, who's in accessibility already knows about overlays, that this is probably not the best approach, I do not want to demonize them or something like that. Everybody needs to do something, you know, to earn money and our living, right? It’s really like short sighted solution that most of the time will not work and not help and even sometimes make the accessibility much worse than before. So I'm not fan of them, you know, if I can say nicely in that case, and this is not the future of the AI regarding accessibility, yes, with automatic translations, automatic transcript of the things, yeah, I see future in there, maybe even some connection with sign language and stuff like that, but not to make the basic stuff that you should do as a designer, and developer, you should not use overlays as assistive technology, you already had this user already have assistive technology, so you didn't need anything else, you know, for, for making the website accessible.

08:10 Christopher Michael Lee  

So I have a question for you, you are CPWA, which is a Certified, you know, Provider in Web Accessibility, and you also at CPACC, for IAAP, you know, staying on this topic for just a moment in regards overlays, you know, when they came into the very beginning stage where you start seeing them pop up several years ago, do you think they could be used for training purposes and a sense if you've got a group of developers that are learning accessibility, or going to be changing the backend code? And they have the overlays there? I'm just curious if that could be an approach. 

08:50 Ondřej Pohl, CPWA  

You know, I never thought about that before. So, for me, it's like the first time that somebody asked me that, no, I don't think so. I don't think so if it would work properly, and really changed the code with JavaScript to what we really expect to be accessible with all the area labels and stuff like that baked in. That maybe you know, so we can use it as an example. But I think on the internet, you have so many resources where you can learn from, like, if we call even about the official, W3C area patterns, if we talk about area, you can learn a lot of things, how to make a specific component, accessible, what you should do about it. And then also the other thing is not every overlay is the same, you know, every overlay works differently, some work better, something works worse, right? So, then you cannot state like you can use it like this, then you would need to talk about the specific one, right? I cannot imagine that maybe I'm wrong, but I cannot imagine that overlays could be used for training.

09:48 Christopher Michael Lee  

I appreciate that. It was just it's just a thought as I've heard and read different things out there about overlays, I mean, all stands with IAAP obviously is that you know we want overlay companies to make sure that they are I'll be true in their marketing language and sharing that with potential customers. So, thank you for diving down that. That area with me. So, let's talk a little bit about your Design Internship Program. Can you tell us a little bit about that.

10:16 Ondřej Pohl, CPWA  

Yeah, sure. It was really long time ago when I was, you know, developing the internship program here in ACTUM. So, it was before that I was, you know, knowing anything about accessibility. So unfortunately, the accessibility was not part of the internship program, right, but if you were talking about the curriculum for the universities, for example, that we already talked about, I help them also in other ways, so the students reach out to me, for example, in Messer University in Bruno, they had a program for mentoring. So, one of the students chose me as the mentor, so I help him with anything regarding accessibility, or sometimes even we dive back into the UX field. And also, for example, I have one student from the University where I teach in, and I help her consult with her there, her master tests about accessibility, I really try to help as much as I can, in my timeframe that I have, in my free time, most of the times to help people you know, which are interested in accessibility to help them in some way. I think IAAP should be doing everything that they can do for, you know, spreading the knowledge in a lot of different ways, right? One of the things is the certifications, right? Because you need to learn something in the process, if you already do not know it, right, with the you know, membership options, then you have a lot of other options to communicate with people, if you do not know something specific, you can ask them, you know, the community and stuff like that. So, I think the mentorship depends on what would what it really mean, you know, in the reality, you know, how it will be applied and stuff like that. But I would like anything, which is regarding accessibility education, that IAAP is doing so, yeah, that I think it could be interesting,

11:19 Christopher Michael Lee  

And I think that's so important. And I think it ties back to your points earlier on when you started about the importance of education, and transferred knowledge to individuals, whether they're younger or older. So, I'm glad to hear you're doing that. I'm curious, just, you know, on a side note, you know, as an association being IAAP, one of the things that we've been looking at, is having a mentoring program, that we bring into the mix. What are your thoughts about that from? Would that be something that you would think, as an association dealing with it, you know, spreading and expanding the accessibility profession? Would that be something you think IAAP should be doing? You know, I'm kind of tricking you, right? You know that I'm trying to get you so we do mentor program that will bring you on, right? Try to lock you down.

12:49 Ondřej Pohl, CPWA  

I am up to it. You know, I'm trying to you know, as I said, you know, if if I would make my living only on education about accessibility, does the thing that I will do. But unfortunately, it's not like that. I also need to do loads of other stuff like audits, consultation, supervisions, mentoring, and monitoring and stuff like that. So

13:09 Christopher Michael Lee  

Well, I mean, I just think it's so important to have subject matter experts like yourself, you know, around the world that are feeding new developers, new designers. So, something that I'm excited that you're working on. So, I may be circling back around to you on the internship program to get more of your insights on that. So, moving to another question here. I mean, your focus is on science, you know, back decisions and design. It's intriguing, how do you integrate the data, the research, the guidelines, the psychology, into your approach, and accessibility?

13:45 Ondřej Pohl, CPWA  

You know, like regarding the data and stuff like that it was especially connected before to UX that I was doing and a time, but I think it's really important, because selling and doing accessibility is hard. So, without some kind of evidence and reasons to do it, it is not possible most of the time. So, I need data, I need research, I need guidelines. Like WCAG, for example, we need laws to support my arguments about accessible, that's one of the most important things, but when I was doing UX, it was different because most of the people did not do that to researchers or gathering data working with data and stuff like that. There were no deep learning guidelines specific for UX and UI. There were articles that you can read about, but there was not something like strong to use, right. So, most of the people use like user testing and that was it right? So, regarding that, I was for example, you know, using from psychology like the gold state or Hick's Law or Gestalt principles, and so on. With accessibility I think it's a little bit easier because we have the guidelines. We have laws, there's no laws about UX right? But we have all the things that could already back us up, this is what we are doing And this is backed by hundreds and 1000s and 1000s of researches which were baked to guidelines, right, so we can already base our work on something, but most of the times, it's not enough, you still need the insight from users and lots of other stuff. 

15:15 Christopher Michael Lee  

And yeah, a common question is, you know, when you're designing and developing, you know, is, is getting user feedback? What is your approach to that in the sense of when you go? And how do you orchestrate that into the lifestyle of the work that you're doing?

15:29 Ondřej Pohl, CPWA  

Yes. You know, I'm really part of the communities in here in Czech Republic, especially with people with disabilities, if we talk about people with visual impairments, or hearing impairments and stuff like that. So I really tried to connect, I tried to know the people I try to, you know, even if we are not, you know, working on a project, I love to, you know, meet with them, and see how they navigate the website, the internet, you know, to really see what they are doing, you know, because, for example, when I started in accessibility, and first open the NVDA, the screen reader, right, I was using a totally different that people really normally do, right? Even if I know like, the shortcuts and everything, they were doing a little bit differently. So, I think it's really important to learn and to understand and to try, you know, to do it like people that are there need assistive technology to do that. Right. Regarding, you know, back to your question to user testing and testing with them. So, I already have connections with people. So, I can, you know, ask them, you know, to help me or I can ask my friends, if they can provide me with some people for the testing and for the user feedback and stuff like that. So, this is like the thing that we are doing. And I was doing that also before, when I was doing user experience, but the difference was, we did not have any guidelines. So, we needed a lot of users to get the feedback. And right now, there are a lot of guidelines, you can you know, reach on and based on so you do not, at least from my own opinion, you don't need to test that much. Especially if we look at it, you would need to test with people who is like visual impairment, people with hearing impairment, people with who are neurodiverse neurodivergent, right people with motoric issues. And then it could be you know, trying to sell it to a client is probably not possible because they will not be able to afford it, it will be really time-consuming and really expensive. So, you need to find the right balance, the right balance in it.

17:22 Speaker  

The IAAP Certified Professional in Accessibility Core Competencies. (CPACC) credential is IAAP foundational certification representing broad cross disciplinary conceptual knowledge about thoughtful design, policy and management to be inclusive of all. The CPACC is the ideal credential for those who manage and support accessibility, but who may not personally design implement or evaluate the technical details of accessible solutions, check out the exam content outline on our website.

17:58 Christopher Michael Lee  

You know, thank you for that. I was just curious, just listened to your talk. Just it seems to me that there's definitely, you know, passion for the work that's coming through like that. You're, you're interested in this work, you're not just doing the work. You're interested in it. How'd you get into the field?

18:15 Ondřej Pohl, CPWA  

Yeah, that's, that's quite an interesting question. As I already said, you know, I started in university to graphic design. So, I was in the design. And then I was doing UI website UX and stuff like that. And my goal was always to help people, I really want to have an impact and really help people, you know, so this is what I was trying to do. So, with the UX, I felt like, Yeah, this is it, I'm helping users, but, you know, in time, I figured out that are most of the times helping clients to achieve what they want, you know, to influence users to buy their stuff, even if maybe it was not that good at a time. So, I sell it, I said, you know, yeah, this is good, but it's not really the helping people that I imagined. But you know to be true with accessibility. It was really a coincidence. Actually, I know, we had one client a long time ago and he asked, you know, about accessibility, you know, if we can help him with that answer, like, what is it? Never heard about it. So I was, you know, searching on Google, what's accessibility? And, you know, in few minutes and hours, I figured out, man, this is it, this is what I was looking for. This is like, I will allow people to access websites, you know, it doesn't matter what content they have, and if it's good for them or not, but at least we can allow them, you know, to do it, to read it to interact with that. So, I said yeah, this is really helping people with no hidden stuff, right. So, I said, this is something that I want to do, and I spent most of my free time after I realized that to learn accessibility to try it, you know, to try to play with assistive technology to try to design something which is accessible, and I already started to implement it into our design team. So, I wanted all my people, all my designers to do things accessible as much as they can do, right? This is what was and why it's a passion to me, I love accessibility. And also, you know, I will be not lying that not many people, especially in Czech Republic in the time was doing accessibility. So, I wanted to be one of the few people who do that, and you know, to be, you know, the one who like help to build a path to accessibility in Czech Republic. 

20:31 Christopher Michael Lee  

Yeah, it's interesting is, you know, it's not only what you said, it's the right thing to do, right. It's the right thing to do. But it's also a market driver. And a lot of people don't realize that. If you do pull those two together the right thing to do in the market driver, why wouldn't you want to dive into understanding accessibility, especially when you look at the aging population and how it's growing and different countries, I was just in Taiwan recently, and they're going to be a simple aged population by 2025, that's 20% of the population that will be aging. And so, applications have to be accessible, not only just the built environment, the transportation piece of it, right? So is it's that it's so important in so many ways. So, I'm glad to hear and thank you for sharing your story about why you're so engaged in accessibility. So, I have a question for you, because you brought up, you know, that this was something that really came to you by client, that wow, can you to pay attention this client needs this what you did a little digging and research. Can you share with us a situation where you had a client where you did some work with them in regard to accessibility or design, and you walked away and you were like, wow, that that felt really good. Is there one particular you know, thing that really stands out that you the work that you've done so far that you'd like to share? Well,

21:47 Ondřej Pohl, CPWA  

Well, let me think about it. I, you know, I love every work that's, you know, connected to accessibility. So, I can probably say like, one thing that stands out, right, but the thing that I enjoyed the most is the feedback. You know, I'm not talking about the feedback only about from users, that's obvious, right? If you make something accessible for them, it's better for them. But I will talk about the feedback from the people who are working on the project. So, to the designers, developers, and content editors and creators. So, if they come to me back and say, Hey Ondřej, I want to learn more about accessibility, I really love that, you know, and then you can see, if they work on other projects in their company, they already start talking about accessibility as one of the key points, right? And they say, Hey, get in touch with Ondřej, you know, and so this is the thing that really always you know, hit me up, when I hear the feedback that people talk about accessibility that you will from like, nowhere, you will get a feedback, I pay my colleague, my friend, we were on a beer yesterday. And he told me about the experience with you and about accessibility, there was something totally new that blew their mind, right? I want to learn to want to know it, too. So, this is the thing that really makes me happy when I see people interested in that and realizing that this is something which is really important, especially future wise.

23:07 Christopher Michael Lee  

Yeah, that is the community, right? I mean, it's growing the community. When you see those, the eyes, click, or the ears kind of open up wider in the sense of wow, this is they're getting it. And that's exciting, I agree with you I have that same feeling. So, you're going to be speaking about an upcoming event, the Web Expo 2024. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

23:32 Ondřej Pohl, CPWA  

Yeah, sure. You know, I'm hardly preparing for that right now, because there is not much time to finish my speech. And so, the talk will be about making websites accessible, really, from practical point standpoint of view, but especially a showing the reality versus expectations of people who's doing or trying to make something accessible. Because, you know, the thing is that a lot of people believe and pre probably know it, that they believe they do not know a lot about accessibility. But you know, most of the time reality is totally different. So I hear I heard so many times that I have read the WCAG, you know, most of the times the people means with that they really read only the success criteria, like the one paragraph of text or two paragraphs that are in there, and they still do not understand what does it mean doesn't mean that they read the understanding documents or you know, the techniques and stuff like that. Only, you know, they like a lot of like the real-world experience. So, they read some documents, some text, but they do not have any experience with making websites accessible, and experience with working with users and he has experience with understanding disabilities, and how it affects people what kind of barriers they can, you know, run into on the website. A lot of the times I experienced that when I train people on the start, I asked them always you know, what do you know about accessibly? They say yeah, we know a lot. We already done this and this and this. So, then we do the training and after the training asked them again. So, it was something new for you? Or did you already know about that? And say, yeah, there were some new things, but most of the things I already know, right? And then then when you start working with them, you see, like, the typical mistakes that people make, it's really, most of the time the reality and expectations about that is really different. And especially a lot of times, unfortunately, they think that when they do train with me, for example, I have courses for designers, developers, and also content creators than I planned for this year, also QA, the training is four hours long. So, it's like a real introduction to that specific field, nothing like major, a lot of times they think that after the training, they will be able to do everything about accessibility, and they will not need me anymore, right? But I, you know, tell them, like, what did you learn in your life in four hours, like, I don't know, nuclear engineering or something like that. And the important thing is that they do not realize that, when even those four hours, they can remember only like 50% Most of the time, because our human brain when you are listening, and also visually seeing the like, average is 50%, right? But if they are doing that after that with me, so I supervise them in their work, they can learn 90% of those things that I'm saying to them. So, this is the thing that it's most important to me to really sit with them, or provide them feedback weekly or daily, in the process. And so, these are the things that I will be talking about in my speech at the Web Expo 2024.

26:33 Christopher Michael Lee  

And it's great. Thank you for that. And yeah, there is that piece and this leads on to the next question about benefits that you've gotten from IAAP and the CPWA. And it's, it's the phrase that you just mentioned was about kind of skill piece of it, right? So, you teach them, and you have four hours, what you focus on, this is about accessibility, but now we're going to go in there and we're going to play around and it's going to increase that that percentage of knowledge sticking with them. Can you talk a little bit about how IAAP has made a difference and in addition to that just how being CPWA has impacted your work.

27:13 Ondřej Pohl, CPWA  

Sure, with the membership and for me like the most important stuff is new friends I may even call them my family, my second family because I feel it like this right? If I go to any IAAP you know even you know to meet like for example you, Susanna, Regine, or other people like really, I feel like I know them for like my whole life, right? Even if it's not true, right? And so, for me it's like to be really the support of knowing that I'm not alone, because this is how was I feeling before I you know, discover IAAP I was feeling alone there was like only myself and Radek Pavlíček, probably in Czech Republic, who were you know, really doing accessibility, there was no one else. So, I a lot of times felt alone. So, I think membership, at least for me, one of the parts is, you know, to be part of the family, even if are we are spread around the world, right? But nice, also, I used that sometimes even libraries, I do not have much time to do that. But some free webinars that you provide are also cool, because any free knowledge is good knowledge. That's like pretty much you know the thing about membership, but if we talk about certification, that's totally different story, right? The certification changed my professional life a lot. First of all, I'm extremely proud that I could be certified. And even if the certification exists, it also helped me to open doors to many clients to many conversations, that I would be not that easily be part of right. So, I see it as a really great door opener. So, people hear me out, they believe me much easier what I'm telling because they think that I already have the experience, they have the support, which is international. That's like the thing that changed. And what I really love to also do with the certification to tell people about it, right? I say like, are you interested in accessibility? Great. Let's join the team. Let's join IAAP certification, because this is the best motivator for you to get the knowledge because this is like gamification, right? You have something that you can achieve, you can have some kind of like badge or something like that. But you need to do something about that. And also, you need to spend all some years doing accessibility if you want. So, this is like I think, a really good motivator, you know, also the certification for people in the long run, to really dedicate themselves to accessibility and be more proficient. 

29:35 Christopher Michael Lee  

And it's interesting because it really kind of ties back to what we started at the very beginning about education, right? And then the mentoring aspect of that, because the certification what people don't really realize a lot of times it's not a certificate is a professional certification. You have to have knowledge and skill. And not only that, but you’d also have to continue to keep up your continuing professional education credits. So, you stay If you stay active, and what's going on with the community, whether it's you know, in the design, development or content side of it, right, it's exciting stuff. And it does seem to fit your profile and the work that you're doing. So, I appreciate that. So just, you know, in wrapping this up, are there any kind of key takeaways that you'd like to share with, with our listeners?

30:25 Ondřej Pohl, CPWA  

Sure, you know, I think it will be, again, kind of a little bit about education, like, this is my stuff, right? So I see one thing a lot, people, a lot of times tend to focus only on people with visual impairments, specifically, if we talk about that about blind people, you know, regarding accessibility, I can see that like, even in one of our clients, or like in the commercial sector, they sometimes we already have a tester who is like visually impaired, and has low vision and stuff like that. So, our applications and our websites are already accessible, because he provided us feedback, right? And I say, Yeah, that's great. That's, like, really important. towards accessibility, but it's not enough far away from the ideal, right? Because then you will be making the application only accessible to the specific people, right? Where are the people who have like, a hearing impairment, where people who are neurodivergent, motoric issues with learning disabilities, and so on, so on, so on. So, with testing with one kind of user, it's good, you make your application a little bit more accessible, but it's not enough like in the long run, it's not systematic, right. So, this is the thing that I would love to give to your listeners. So, you know, do not focus only on people with visual impairments, because there are a lot of other disabilities that will need to be covered in accessibility, right. One thing that I would also like to announce is that we are right now, translating to English, our study that I've done with our friendly company Deaffriendly, was done based on the research that we've done with people who prefers communication in sign language. And the research is about how to make websites accessible, especially to people who are communicating in sign language, because this is the one of the groups that is I think, even in accessibility feel the most overlooked groups in accessibility. Because for them, they have a lot of struggles on website, especially the people who talk or use Czech Sign Language, because Czech language is already really difficult compared to English. And for the Czech sign language to understand the Czech spoken or written language, it's really hard, you know, so it's really important to make the websites accessible also, for them in a lot of different ways that are not only making sign language, translation for videos, there are a lot of other things that should be covered. So that we've done our research, we have really a long study, I think it's like 24, or 30 pages, all written in plain language, we had an expert for that to translate it for us. Right now. It's a Czech language, but we are translated into English. So, this is one of the things that I would then be glad if IAAP also could maybe share it through newsletter or something like that, when we finish it. And one more thing that I want to mention is the last fine piece that I always say to anyone we I work with accessible or talk about accessibility is in accessibility, progress over perfection. That's it, because if you take some small steps, small things, that's a good thing, you know, that’s really great and you should, you know, be glad. And you should be happy that something is getting better and better, because, again, a lot of times I hear like you need to cover everything from the star, otherwise you will be illegally sued or something like that. I say, like, yeah, that would be great, but this is not how the world works, right? You cannot stop everything that you're doing about your website or product and focus one year fully on accessible. It's not like it will ever happen. So, progress over perfection. That's my motto.

34:04 Christopher Michael Lee  

Well said, Well said and so true, right? Don't try to be perfectionist, just move forward. I'd love to have you back to talk about the work that you're doing with websites and specifically engaging in bringing in the deaf community. So, I look forward to seeing that article. And please reach out to me directly and we'll get something up and share it with our members. Ondřej I really enjoyed this. I'm you're doing some exciting work, your hearts in a good place, I can just hear it as you talk through the questions that we have for you today. So, thank you so much.

34:41 Ondřej Pohl, CPWA  

Yeah, it was a pleasure. Thank you very much and I will be looking forward to the next time. 

34:46 Christopher Michael Lee  

Me too. Take care.

34:48 Ondřej Pohl, CPWA  

See you.

34:49 Speaker  

The International Association of Accessibility Professionals membership consists of individuals and organizations representing various industries including the private sector, government, nonprofits and educational institutions. Membership benefits include products and services that support global systemic change around the digital and built environment. United in Accessibility, join IAAP and become a part of the global accessibility movement.