E35: Inclusive Leadership with Humor and Humility

Explore how inclusive leadership not only cultivates a supportive workplace culture but also empowers teams to innovate and achieve collective goals, fostering an environment where every voice is valued and respected.

Transcript

00:04 Speaker  

Welcome to the IAAP United in Accessibility podcast, the podcast exploring the latest in accessibility and inclusion. Today, we are excited to have Dr. Anthony Giannoumis an expert in inclusive leadership. Anthony is a motivational speaker, workshop facilitator, and course instructor. His diverse career spans from computer programmer to opera singer, professor, comedian, and entrepreneur. As Co-founder of Inclusive Creation and Author of the Sins and Wins of inclusive leadership. Anthony has received numerous awards, including from the United Nations. He has spoken in over 32 countries, published over 50 scientific articles and founded the EQUALS-EU network for gender-inclusive innovation. Join us as we explore Anthony's journey and insights on inclusive leadership on the United in Accessibility podcast.

01:01 Christopher Michael Lee  

All right, Anthony, welcome. This is IAAP podcast United and Accessibility is awesome to have you here today. I cannot believe we have such a history that we just spent some time talking about it. So, I'm really looking forward to this podcast. I'm looking forward to learning what you've got going on your plate. It's been a long time since we've talked. So why don’t you start off with just introduce yourself.

01:22 Dr. Anthony Giannoumis  

Thanks so much, Christopher, this is actually kind of a dream come true for me, because I've been following IAAP for years since really it started and so then to have the opportunity to come on this podcast is just my fingers are just trembling with joy. So yeah, I am Anthony, Dr. Anthony Giannoumis. I would like to describe myself as a computer programmer turned opera singer turned then professor turned most recently to an entrepreneur and a motivational speaker on inclusive leadership. I am American by birth and Norwegian by choice, emigrated here about 13 years ago, I always say 13 years, one winter.

02:08 Christopher Michael Lee  

That's great. So, I have to put you on the spot then. Opera singing? I mean, come on. I mean, and I love opera.

02:17 Dr. Anthony Giannoumis  

 Yeah, there you go. Though I left that, you know, it's funny, it's, they say the arts are always the first thing to go. And I was doing my master's degree. And this was in the period of time where I was ready to make a change in my career. And so I was, you know, working in IT by day, studying epidemiology by afternoon, evening, and then going into rehearsals of the Meister Singer at the Philadelphia Opera House, in the late night to the late hours. And so, at some point, my brain just said, I can't do all of these things. They're just far too different. And of course, as they say, the arts are the first thing to go. So, I took, well, what would be a sabbatical that lasted about 15 years, I got back into the arts recently, when I started working on storytelling and comedy and I joined a acting a theater group here in Oslo. And so, I've been doing some acting and some very, very silly plays. And so, it's giving me that chance to get back on stage and to just enjoy the love of creating something.

03:23 Christopher Michael Lee  

So, imagine, you know, I had the opportunity to be in the classroom with you, in Oslo several years ago and I imagine your students love you. I can only imagine, you know, having that comedian, light kind of component to yourself. So just out of curiosity, you know, what was some of the things that you would do with your students?

03:47 Dr. Anthony Giannoumis  

So, all right, just to paint the theme here. This semester, I had a class of about 100 students, and we're all in a typical auditorium. Right? And I'm up in class and one of them that that day's lecture had focused on inclusion, new perspectives in leadership, and specifically looking at immigrants like how immigrants can provide new perspectives for entrepreneurs and startups. And so, I'm telling you a little bit about my experience coming to Norway and I tell a story about the first time I tried Norwegian brown cheese, which is a very caramel sweet, flavored cheese. I know it sounds crazy, if you're not familiar with it, but that's the flavor profile. I didn't know this. So, I put it in an omelet. And it was a disaster. And so, I'm trying to create something relatable for my students in this story to show them that like a lot of folks show up in a new country, they don't know what's going on, they don't know how things work. And you as people who are from Norway need to have empathy for those experiences, whether they're funny or tragic. So, I'm telling the story about using brown cheese and an omelet. And my students are kind of quiet. They're just listening focused in, and I see a student about halfway through that back the auditorium, and she is welling up with tears. Her face is bright pink. And I look at her and I realize she is holding in laughter. And I said, it's okay to laugh because she thought, oh, no, I can't laugh during a lecture, that's not appropriate. I said, it's okay to laugh. So, she burst into laughter, the whole auditorium is an uproar then and we got through the rest of the presentation that day. But it was one of those moments where I was like, okay, doing this in this context, I need a front load. Hey, guys, some of these stories are going to be funny. It's okay to laugh.

05:43 Christopher Michael Lee  

Oh, that's awesome. I mean, you want the students to interact with you like that and you want to break the mold of a typical classroom always. And I mean, that's a lot about, you know, kind of universal designers and people can't see us right now, this is a podcast. But you've got that on your shirt. You got this great white shirt with universal designer. Talk to me about your philosophy about universal designers in general, what makes a good universal designer?

06:10 Dr. Anthony Giannoumis  

I think one of the things I talk about most in my keynotes is a story that also comes from the classroom. It was one of the best lectures of my life. Every student in the auditorium was on the edge of their seats and I finished that proud as a peacock, I was just very high on my horse, feeling like I just, you know, bestowed all this wonderful wisdom on to my students. And this young woman comes marching down from the back of the auditorium and presents herself in front of the podium at the end of class and says, Anthony, I've got a list of all the things you did wrong today. And she starts going through them, oh, you started 10 minutes late, because you're messing around with the technology. At the end of class, you said, oh, there's one more thing, but then you said it nine different times about different things. And you didn't explain this concept. And I'm like gob smacked, because I'm sitting here thinking about the student is like this annoyance, like she's just there to bother me. What does she know, she's a student. I'm a professor, right. That, for me, was one of the biggest junctures of my career, because it taught me a really incredible lesson about the value of listening. And I think fundamentally, what it comes down to, when we take away all the technical proficiencies, when we take away all the challenges, problems that exist in this space, and we really distill the attitudes that of a universal designer needs to have, it's that it's listening. Because when we're listening to our users, when we're listening to our extreme users, the people who experienced the most barriers, accessing or using technology or products and services, then we're opening the door to making changes. And I think that's the most critical thing we can do. 

07:59 Christopher Michael Lee  

Yeah, that's such a, it's such a good point and life in general, right. And, you know, the other thing that you mentioned, I think, which is another component to, you know, adding on to the listening piece of that is being able to tell a story, to get a message across, and then pause and listen. And that's something that you do not only from a comedian standpoint, and being able to be clear, but also from a teaching standpoint. So, tell me a little bit just about that aspect of not only just listening, but the storytelling and how important that is in your day-to-day work now. Not only in doing keynote speeches, but other than that you do.

08:39 Dr. Anthony Giannoumis  

 I think the number one thing about storytelling is making sure that it's real, it's relatable for the audience. And so, you have to kind of find some of these universal themes that you can attach yourself to. If I got an up in front of an audience who wasn't well versed in issues around accessibility, or usability, and I started talking about the challenges that someone who is blind or partially sighted faces accessing a website, let's just keep it super simple, right? Much less if that same person is on the autism spectrum, much less of that same person's a woman, an older person who also lives in the global south in some rural area, right? When we start adding all these identities up, the barriers become exponentially greater. I would never tell that kind of a story in front of an audience when I'm trying to bring across a basic truth around accessibility and usability. So, what I do instead is I tell a story about my mom, most everybody in that audience will have a mother or have a mother figure in their life. And then I tell a story about how she was there in the hospital when her grandson was born. And she got a picture with her phone of the family together on that day. And her mission in life that day was to print out that picture. Now you kind of probably already see where I'm going with this because buying a printer, trying to use the printer to print out this picture is fraught with accessibility and usability challenges. But nobody's thinking about them in those terms. And so, I put that out there as a because everybody can relate to printers not working very well as well. So, I put it out there, this is my mother trying to achieve a goal, she can't achieve it because of the way technology is designed. And then I take it one step further and say, it's easy to blame the technology. Oh, it's the way it was designed that's the problem or blame the designer. Oh, the designer was just not doing their job. But then I elevate it further. I say what about the business models that are allowing this piece of technology to go to market and for them to profit off of it. And then that opens up all the conversations around law and regulation and implementation and human rights, all these other higher-level issues that are really, really relevant, important, but I can't start there. You got to start with something people can connect with on a human and an emotional level. 

10:59 Christopher Michael Lee  

Wow. I mean, that I wish I had you as a teacher. That's a beautiful way of getting to the difficult topics, and in some cases, boring topics, right. But that has to be covered. Right? So that's awesome. So, tell me a little bit about the keynotes that you do. I wasn't aware that you were doing a lot of keynotes right now. So, when you brought that up all I was like, wow, I'm wondering what, but topical areas you touch. So, can you share a little information about that? 

11:29 Dr. Anthony Giannoumis  

Absolutely. So, I'm still early in this part of my career, I kind of hit the reset button last year and said, you know, academia is more or less part of my past, I still teach. But the research part of it, the innovation part of it, I've kind of left the past. And what I'm focusing on now is bringing some of the messages, some of the science of inclusion to different audiences. And so, within this year, I've had the privilege to work with over 30 clients from countries around the world. I just got back last week from Chile, from Santiago, where I did a speech in front of probably 200 Business developers, innovators, telling stories like the one I just told you about my mom, a couple of weeks from now, I'm going to be in the UK doing a speech for an oil and gas company there. Few weeks after that I'll be in Japan doing a speech at a big conference there. It's really just been an absolute privilege. And I don't want to flex all that what I want to focus in on is the content, which is what matters the most. This is why people are hiring me to do these speeches. The content is on inclusive leadership. And I have a real kind of a little bit of a NSFW, are we allowed to curse on the podcast? Yeah, a little bit. Okay, so the hook I use that a lot of my clients really get them smiling and engaged is my keynote is: "A straight white man's guide to shutting the fuck up and leading inclusively." A little bit long winded, but you get the point here, right? This is not about oh, poor people with disabilities or oh, such an inspiration, inspo porn and all that this is about me and my privilege, the things that I've enjoyed throughout my life, and how I've learned hard lessons that are also hilarious and humiliating, and how the audience can avoid those same missteps. So, I've been really, really lucky. And I have been able to take these messages around the world. And every time I get on a plane, I just have to pinch myself to say, is this real? Is this possible my career now?

13:39 Christopher Michael Lee  

It’s like people paying you to actually be yourself and share? Yeah, I mean, and that whole piece of, you know, kind of just being humble and the fact that it can be funny, in a sense, once you let go of that piece of that, because everyone makes mistakes every learn different ways. And, and being a professor in teaching students, you know, university, you've seen that straight up, I mean, so it didn't really answer the question that way. Why, what did I teach them anything? So, talk to me just a little bit about and want to drill down on this, this whole inclusive leadership direction you're going and why I want to drill down because IAAP is in the mix of right now developing a criteria that looks at improving implementation around inclusive design, pretty much anything to do with inclusion within organizations, and the criteria that is 14 components of it. And it's, it's backed by disability advocacy groups, so we own the IP being G3ict and IAAP, but we don't change anything. Let's just stand by the disability advocacy group or steering committee that we have. So, one of the 13 pieces of criteria focuses on leadership and so you know, so it talks a little bit about different criteria about top down, bottom-up type. So, I'm just curious about your philosophy on inclusive leadership. And you know, I don't want to take away too much, because we want you to give more speeches. But yeah, can you share some quick wins around that? What are things that you've learned as you've traveled to these different countries? Because you learned from that culture, right, which is different in different places? 

15:22 Dr. Anthony Giannoumis  

Yeah, I think one of the things that's come across to me, seeing all these different contexts is the problems are near universal, the solutions are context driven. So, we're all struggling with the same issues of implementation. But if we are to, you know, enact a new law policy program, training, whatever it is, your intervention might be, if you do it here in Norway, it ain't gonna work in the US necessarily, it ain't gonna work in Korea, necessarily. So, we've got to stop thinking about things as being one size fits all right, we got to stop thinking about okay, well, it works here. Let's just do it here. And it'll fix the problem. It won't. Organizations are radically different; the cultures are radically different. And I think that's another thing that really has jumped out at me is the hour that the organizational culture plays. And when I talk about culture, I want to be clear what I mean, it's the expectations of what's right and wrong. It's the this is how it's always been done. It's the default, whatever in your organization is considered as the like, okay, well, yeah, we just, of course, we would do it that way. There's where there's potential for issues, because all of our institutions, no matter how young or old they are, are operating on 20th, 19th, 18th century methodologies and approaches, and the only way we're going to get to the radical reforms that we need to ensure inclusion to ensuring accessibility to ensure leadership is taking these things seriously, is to do to make a dramatic shift. And that means questioning everything that we're doing. So even in my classes, even my work in the university, I questioned just about everything down to why should we be grading? What's the existential question here? Why do I deserve a say in what my students’ grades are? Right? So presumably, it's because I've achieved some level of education. But is that enough? Is that the right qualification to say that I should be the one to grade them? Or is it they should be evaluated by an industry panel to determine Oh, they're the ones who get to decide the student’s grate. My job is only as the facilitator to make sure they gain the skills, right. So, I try to get into these existential questions about everything and it can be maddening. Don't get me wrong here. You can spiral on this stuff. But I think it's so important to start putting our default motivations under a spotlight and under a magnifying glass and picking them apart, unpacking them and seeing what we are comfortable with keeping and what we are ready to get rid of. 

18:09 Christopher Michael Lee  

Yeah, I mean, I can see just going down a rabbit hole with that, because, you know, it's so important, right? I mean, that. I mean, that stretch of the mind moving to, to another reality, in a sense of, okay, what am I doing here? You know, I'm standing in class, I'm teaching these students specific topics. I know what they know in a sense, based on what they're feeding me, why do I have to give him a grade on that? 

18:31 Dr. Anthony Giannoumis  

Just a little bit on that real quick, I had a button when I was a teenager, I was one of these angsty kind of long hair. You know, grunge rocker teenagers, it was in a garage band. And it said, question everything. And it was supposed to be one of those, you know, edgy kind of like, oh, she was pushing authority and everything like that. But I do think we need to question everything. I think we need to really roll back and say, our institutions are built on all of the isms and all of the obidos that you can imagine. And if they are, are there things here that we need to undo? And are there radical reforms that need to be made? So, I see nothing wrong with spiraling on these issues, you know, internally and really having a hard look because, you know, just there's evidence all around us of the problems that these institutions have created for especially marginalized and disadvantaged groups.

19:28 Speaker  

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19:49 Christopher Michael Lee  

I love the fact that you're out there speaking and talking to companies about this because it must be really nice to be able to stand on that stage or in that room. and speak to this in a different direction than you could with, you know, an academic bureaucracy. And when they're looking down the nose at you not that they all do that, but...So you have a book coming out, and it tells a story about the book.

20:16 Dr. Anthony Giannoumis  

Sure, sure. So, it's actually going to be a book series, I'm already working on the second in the series. So, the book is called "The Sins and Wins of Inclusive Leadership", it's got a bright yellow color with some blue lettering that looks like it's handwritten. It's written by myself at co-author Sumita and illustrated by one of my students, a man named Thor Isak . And what it is, it's a collection of seven stories, lessons that I learned in my journey, and everything is illustrated. So, it's almost comic book style. This is not like a hardcore business book, you know, 200 pages that you're going to have to wade through at the end of the day, what you're going to get is a book that you can probably polish off in 30 minutes. But every chapter comes with a key takeaway, a zinger. I call them a zinger. And so, one of the chapters and this gets into that story I told you earlier, is, is all about the student that came down and gave me all this criticism. So, the takeaway is shut up, so they don't shut down. And what I do is I tell people who buy the book, I say, you can take that page, and just tear it out and put it up on your wall. So, it can remind you of the key lesson here. Another one is hired for the good fit. And the good ad, the lesson here being you know, don't just hire for a set of responsibilities, think who's bringing a new perspective to the team that isn't already present and it's got a story here about a group of men sitting around a table deciding who they want to hire. And each one of them is named John. And so, they're like, well, a good fit is another man named John. And then somebody pipes in and says, Well, how about Dominica? And then they're like, oh, yeah, Dominica brings a new perspective. So, these are such simple lessons, these are not meant to be hardcore, like, okay, you know, I'm going to have to sit down and wade through another chapter. These are meant to be bite sized, easy to understand, fun to engage with. And I even designed it like a children's book. So, it's a square book, you know, equal sides on all ends, it's illustrated, this is the kind of book that my mom read to me as a child. The content is different, obviously, but I call it a children's book for CEOs. And my next, so the inclusive leadership is out now. You can get it on any major platform, but if you go to my website, inclusive leadership.solutions, you can get one autographed by me, I'll write you a little message and include a nice little free gift. So, if you don't want to get it from Amazon, you get it from me. But now we have the second book in the series, "The sins and Wins of Inclusive Design", which is coming out this summer. So in August, you will be able to buy it, you can do pre orders today, on my website, inclusiveleadership.solutions. And we're excited to put together the last few stories in that design book, because it's just so much fun to write these things. 

23:09 Christopher Michael Lee  

And looks, it looks a lot of fun. And I love the fact that you, it's not easy to put, you know, really a complete thought into one-on-one page. And not only that, but you also know, in looking at it just to describe it a little bit. But we're talking about very little content, but with an image in it, and you're able to convey a very important aspect of a company what they need to consider. And just in general, and I love the fact that the John page, you know, let's just hire another John, because we feel more comfortable with John's because we John, so I'm looking forward to getting a copy of it and definitely have you back maybe as the as the series continues. So, we'll switch a little bit and you've done a lot of work and an innovation around gender inclusion, can you talk a little bit about that, and the organization that you founded. 

24:06 Dr. Anthony Giannoumis  

Sure, sure so it actually involves that student that told me all those things that I had done wrong. It's kind of funny, because I was at a weird juncture in my career where I needed to learn how to shut up so that she didn't shut down. Thank goodness, I had some, you know, wherewithal to actually be able to listen to her. But because I listened to her, she and I were able to connect and start up a collaboration, and we worked together for many years. And one time she came to me, and she said, Anthony, I just found this call for applications on the EU website. And she said, you know, they're offering 1.7 million euro to develop work around gender inclusive innovation. And I said, well, you know, these sorts of proposals, they're, you know, one out of 100 gets selected, like even less than that sometimes. And but she said, “You know, I think it's worth us trying” so I said fine. Let's do it. We wrote hundreds of pages, we put together a consortium of over 24 partners from around the world. And the moment you submit is the most like melodramatic moment in the world because you, you know this, you're smiling, laughing right now, you know this, you click that submit button, and nothing happens, or the most you get is like a screen that says, confirmed. And you're just like, but where's all the bells and whistles? I spent months, maybe years, on this proposal. So, you can find tuning tables and all these things, these little minutiae. So, we went through that, and we just kind of like forgot about it. A few months later, I got a message from an email address, eu.org email address. And I'm looking at the message. And I'm trying to make sense of it. Because it's kind of cryptic, it's like, oh, you have an update in the portal, you should check it out. That was kind of like, okay, fine, but like, what does this mean? So, I go in there, and I look, and we were awarded 1.7 million euro, to create more gender inclusive innovation ecosystems and 24 countries around the world. And so, this was like a big breakthrough for me personally and professionally, not just for the award, not just for the work and the impact that we're able to create, but as a proof that this concept of shutting up how valuable it can be to create relationships and create camaraderie. I didn't want to hear what she had to say, when she came down in the auditorium that day. And you know, the last thing I wanted was my ego bruised after the lecture of a lifetime. But because I had the wherewithal to just take a step back from my own attitude, my own, you know, kind of superiority, and say, okay, this person might have some insights that I can benefit from. This led to a collaboration that led to this pivotal moment in my career. And we just last year, closed the project, and had launched startups in every country that we worked in, and it was just, it was a phenomenal experience. And we achieved an incredible impact because of it. And just, you know, since this is IAAP, and we work a lot with disability issues, so everybody knows here, we were looking at gender from an intersectional lens. But we weren't sitting there looking say oh, you know, you only have to be a woman. It was about gender. It was about disability. It was about race, ethnicity, it was about even religion. We had partners from countries around the world that have different issues around religion, different conflicts going on around religion. And so, this was not an issue isolated to gender. This was an issue about being human, and the massive challenges that people can face, just trying to do basic things in the world.

27:46 Christopher Michael Lee  

That sounds like an amazing project. And if someone wants to learn more about it, you mentioned that there's some startups going on in the book, is there a place that someone could go look at that, because it's an important topic that needs to be addressed. 

28:00 Dr. Anthony Giannoumis  

So, our kind of parent initiative is called equals in tech. So, if you go to equals intact.org, they're doing a lot of really great work to continue, kind of what we've started, what we've, what we've begun together, I'm just checking the URL to make sure it was still works, yes. So, if you check out equalsintech.org, that's where you can go to kind of find more information about this sort of work, because, you know, the life of this project extends beyond just the funding that we're given. And that's the beautiful thing is that we've kind of created a ripple effect that is helped help them people around world.

28:39 Christopher Michael Lee  

Thank you for sharing that, by the way, I'm looking forward to kind of looking at it because it's something that we need to address what I did go up a little bit specifically with the intersection of disabilities, and we haven't done that much on that in that area, which is sad to say, but we definitely need to drill down so maybe that will be a great foundation for us to look at and get me motivated. And talking about kind of motivation. The next question we've got, you know, kind of stems a little bit back to what we started with is you know, how humor plays with your central role around your keynotes, and we talked a little bit that bout that. But how do you balance humor, with you know, serious topics, like, you know, diversity and so on?

29:20 Dr. Anthony Giannoumis  

Yeah, it was something I had to reflect on a lot. Even just that kind of that hook that I use in my keynote, the straight White Man's Guide to shutting the fuck up. It was a lot of self-reflection to sit there and say, am I meeting making light of this really serious issue and issue that that affects people's lives in very serious ways that can literally be a life-or-death situation. Am I making light of that is am I treating it superficially? And the more I kind of pondered it, the more I talked to other people, especially people with disabilities and women, older people, the more I said, hey, this is what I'm thinking of doing. What do you guys think? The more validation I got, and the more insights I got about how I can do this ethically. And so, one of the main principles that I take in my work, especially in comedy, and I've taken inspiration from a comedian named Marty Wilson. So, he says: "if you're not one of them, don't make fun of them." So, it's a perfect, perfect kind of way of thinking about humor. And so, I don't make fun of anyone other than myself, or people similarly situated with my privilege. Okay. So, you know, people like me, fair game, me, absolutely fair game. So, 99% of the comedy is me doing something stupid, something foolish, something that I can poke fun at. So that's kind of one way I approach it. The other way I approach it with the fact that it is a serious issue is by making things as easy to understand as possible. So, when I talk about the shut up, so they don't shut down, it's such a simple lesson. But it's a lesson that's effective. Because if you're in a room with a bunch of John's, and then you're a Dominica, or you're a person with a disability, and you're sitting around looking, nobody else is like you in that room, it's going to be hard for you to have your voice heard, even if you're the most confident, strong, resilient person in the world, it's going to be hard to have your voice heard. So, if I can look at John’s, and they're looking at me saying, oh, Anthony looks kind of like me, Anthony has the same kind of background as I do. And I can say, hey, guys, we need to shut up. So, the other people in the room can have a voice. That's some change that can happen. And so all of my speeches are not directed. I grew up in the South, I grew up in Texas. So, we have the saying, preaching to the choir, right. And a lot of these kinds of speeches that we do are preaching to the choir, we're talking within our own echo chambers, I have made a deliberate effort to talk outside of the echo chamber to say, okay, what are the industries? What are the fields? What are the rooms where nobody's talking about these things? And how can I use my privilege and power to get into those rooms, and bring these narratives to life, and it gets people started on that journey, you know, I'm not here to kind of finish things off, there's so many great consultancies and people who work on this day to day who can really help organizations go, you know, to the nth degree with this, my job is to light that spark, right, so that they can then go in and get into the IAAPs, and the other organizations that are doing incredible work in this field. And you'd be shocked at how maybe you wouldn't be shocked, actually, but I was shocked whenever I started learning about how many industries are so just, for example, male dominated, if you just Google male dominated industries, you are going to you're going to find it hilarious. One of the things that jumped out at me was the funeral home industry, like who would have thought, right? But then when you're like, you're, your kind of doing like a litmus check, you know, you're just kind of doing a finger in the wind, you're like, oh, like, you know, of course, it would be right. Like, it tends to just attract men. And then you're thinking, okay, well, that means that women are going to be barred from the, you know, the industry for one reason or another, they're going to, you know, feel like they don't have necessarily a role. And so, you know, the work that we're doing is depressing, we will have jobs the rest of our lives. And on one hand, I wish that I could put myself out of business where there was just no need for my services anymore. On the other hand, what we know about issues around disability is evolving. Our understanding of disability, our understanding of gender, sexual orientation, everything, it evolves, you know, what we think of as LGBTQIA+ now was way different when I was a kid, right? You know, it wasn't just gender binary, it was gender binary, and okay, you could also be gay, that was basically it, that was your options. And so, seeing in my lifetime, my short lifetime seeing so many changes, we've gone through with disability as well. You know, when I was a kid, the Autism Spectrum was nothing like what we understand it today. ADHD, nothing like it when we audited or whatever, we understand it today. So yes, I am depressed that we'll always have a job on the other hand, I think it's necessary in society that we have people speaking truth to power people like you people like IAAP kind of taking up the mantle to say we can be as progressive as possible on these issues. And you know, what, there's business value, there's societal value, there's economic value out of moving forward.

34:32 Christopher Michael Lee  

 You know, I wish we had all day because I mean, there's so much to unpack with what you just said especially at the front end of the you know, the story of the John's again and being a John that stands up and says wait, we need somebody else in this room and that's hard to do on so it's two sided right? You got some eight-sided John, you know, in there and they are afraid of speaking up and you got John that's afraid of saying, hey, something isn't right about this. I mean, this is So much to unpack there and everything that you just said. So, I really appreciate it. So, you've traveled a lot, you've done a lot of research, is there something that really stands out in experience that you had that, and you've touched a little bit on a few things that would have made more meaningful and I think your book probably really highlights some of those things, the person coming down after class and so on. But in your travels and the research, is there something that really is remarkable that stands out to you, that kind of helps you create who you are right now.

35:35 Dr. Anthony Giannoumis  

Another pivotal moment for me was when I first started working in the Global South. It was with students that I was supervising their master's thesis, and he was a man named George. He originated from Mozambique. And so, he and I met when I was in Galway, I did a guest lecturer he asked me to be a supervisor. I said, Yeah, sure. It'd be great. He was doing work on ICT accessibility. And so, he a few months later invited me down to Mozambique to do some interviews, collect some data, maybe do some research together. And of course, I was just kind of like, yeah, that sounds fine. No worries. So, there I am Mozambique airport, having traveled about 24 hours, dirty, sweating. It's hot, the ceiling fans are just blowing hot air around. And George told me in advance, he said, you know, bring some money, you're going to need money to get your visa, you need like 50 euros to get your visa. I said, yeah, George, don't worry about it. I'll take care. He said, no, you need to give him money. I said no, that's going to be fine. So, I all I had was a credit card, I get to the Mozambique airport, I get up to the front and I see a big sign says cash only 50 euro for visa. Now I'm sweating even more. And so, I'm sitting there thinking to myself, you know, looking at this garden or khaki shirt with our Mozambique flag on the shoulder and I'm sitting there thinking to myself, How the hell am I going to convince this person to let me pay with a credit card? And she looks me up and down and kind of just shrugged her shoulders and says, you know what, you don't get the cash, you're not getting into the country. And eventually, after some difficulty her communicating and Portuguese me and English, worked out that there's an ATM machine, but it's outside of the airport. So, I'm sitting there going, you want me to leave the airport, come back into the airport and give you this money? She says more or less. Yes. So, I go out there, put my card in. It spits it right back out, put it back in again, spits it back out again. Third time put it back in, finally asked me what's your PIN number, plug in my pin number and now it keeps my card. And I got no way of getting money. I must go all the way back through and say, hey, look, I don't know what to do here. I ain't got no money. I ain't got no card you know, are you going to let me throw you put me on the next plane back to Oslo. And my friend George calls me up. He says, hey, just seeing how you get along, my supervisee George. And I said, hey, man, I need your help. I need you to come rescue me. So, he comes, you know, comes in, rescues the day utter hero. And he spends the next week introducing me to people in his network and supporting me to get the interviews done that I wanted to do. He sat with me in car rides all over the country and listened to me ask him, what should I be doing with this data? How would you approach it? If I were if you were me? Who else should I be meeting when I'm here? Asking him questions, the same kind of questions my supervisees asked me. And so, I realized in that moment that the relationship had been reversed. I wasn't his supervisor anymore, he was supervising me in the data collection that was happening in his country, and making sure that I was doing what I needed to do ethically, and just basically to get this data set. And so that was one of the pivotal moments because I realized the value of reverse mentoring, of changing the dynamic between the experienced expert mentor and the inexperienced mentee and reversing that and saying, You know what, there's a lot of insights I as an expert can gain from putting someone in that position of mentor who may not have the same experience that I have, but who have insights that I would never be able to gain access to. And so, this is something I've taken really seriously in my work. And I have an army of young people mentoring me. Every semester in class, we do a reverse mentoring workshop, where my students get fake personality profiles based on me. And I tell them, you have to come up with some things that you can advise them on. And then we do a simulation in the classroom of me as the mentee, then as the mentor and I come out of it with literally dozens of new ways of working dozens of ways of looking at my things. And so, if you're out there and you're thinking, oh, you know what, I need somebody older than me somebody wiser than me, somebody more experienced than me. Fine. Yeah, you might need somebody like that in a position of a mentor. But don't discount the fact that someone younger, less experienced, and I don't care how that dynamic look. If you're a first year and your Bachelor is a great program, find a high schooler, you know, maybe it's a cousin, maybe it's a family member who can give you insights about where your future could go. If you're, you know, a seasoned professional CEO, Executive, find somebody who is newly hired right out of university, and get them to give you insights on your work, there are so many good things that can come out of it. 

40:20 Christopher Michael Lee  

Wow. I mean, there's so much they owe to Anthony. I mean, the whole idea of you knows, shut up and listen, right at the very beginning of that story, in a sense of this guy was trying to tell you get money, get money. I just should shut up and listen. And I love the whole idea of, you know, getting, you know, getting kind of a profile or was profile of the mentoring. I mean, IAAP, as an association, that's one area that we are trying to get into, we're trying to find the right platform to do a mentee mentor, approach that's fully accessible, which is a whole another discussion we can have, but I love that that's a beautiful way of actually engaging your students and rethinking of what really a mentor is, you know, because in my mind, when I think of it, you know, I go straight to what probably the John's would think, right? You know, I go right there. It's got to be looked this way, this is what you know, they've kind of so many years, and blah, blah, blah. So, I really appreciate that. So, I know we're out of time, but just to kind of finish it off. I mean, is it a message that you'd like to leave our listeners, some other thoughts of wisdom that you've always shared throughout this podcast. Was there anything else you want to add?

41:32 Dr. Anthony Giannoumis  

I think the number one thing we lack in this field isn't ways of doing things. We've got some really strong houses. And I don't think we lack a good strong, why, right? The Whys have been out there for centuries, right? This is a human rights issue. This is, you know, business issue, we can make this happen. I think the thing that we're missing is the Where. I think the thing that we're missing is where is the inspiration? Where are those moments that come into our lives that change the directions of, of our work? And I think if everybody listens to this, think about that where moment, then that is the source of inspiration. That's the source of motivation. When I was working, when I started working in motivational speaking, I had to sit there and reflect on my life. You know, it's a mundane example, the story with Katie coming down in front of the classroom, chewing me out of all the things I don't know, it's a mundane example, in my in the scope of the things I've done in my life. It's not, you know, a crowning achievement, right? It's not, you know, 1.7 million euros, It's not 24 countries. It's not all these massive statistics, I can flex. It's a quiet moment between me and somebody else that could have passed without any repercussion. But I understood because I reflected on where that moment of inspiration came from, and where what guided me along the way, I realized that it was that 15 minutes sitting in my office listening to her, tell me all the things I've done wrong. And I think we could all take that as a follow through as a point of action here, where were you, when your moment of inspiration came, you know what was happening in your life right there. Because if you can talk about those issues to others, then people will connect to that and people will want to change that. It gives people the incentive to change. Far more than understanding, okay, these are the six policies that you need to implement in your organization, in order to ensure that there's this, that or the other outcome, those things are important, but we have those things, if we get the inspiration to seek them out. That's where implementation happens.

43:44 Christopher Michael Lee  

You know, is that disruptive space, you had just finished a lecture that you are rethinking, and you had really hit it out of the ballpark, and she comes down, and that space that really flips things around. But you're able to take a deep breath and listen, stop and listen to Katie. And I think that is so, so important. Anthony, I just want to tell you, I've totally enjoyed this is really, it's been great to see you again. It's been too long. I'm excited about your book, I want to, next time, talk to you a little bit about the inclusive game work that you've been doing, and we'll get that in down the road on I'm going to forget about that. So definitely come visit us again. 

44:25 Dr. Anthony Giannoumis  

Amazing. Thank you so much, Christopher for this, like I said was a dream come true, but if anybody wants to know anything more about this kind of work, please check me out inclusiveleadership.solutions. Thank you so much.

44:34 Christopher Michael Lee  

Thank you.

44:38 Speaker  

The International Association of Accessibility Professionals membership consists of individuals and organizations representing various industries including the private sector, government, nonprofits and educational institutions. Membership benefits include products and services that support global systemic change around the digital and build environment. United in Accessibility, join IAAP and become a part of the global accessibility movement.