E49: Access for All: Navigating Language, Disability, and Community Impact

In this episode, Manar Swaby, CEO and Founder of Sway B Access LLC, discusses her work in accessibility, language justice, and equity-driven design, emphasizing community-centered strategies for municipalities and nonprofits. Manar shares her journey from being an educator to focusing on accessibility, driven by her experiences with students and her own neurodivergence, highlighting the importance of inclusive communication and challenging the underdiagnosis of ADHD in Black children. 

Transcript

00:03 Speaker  

Welcome to the United in accessibility Podcast. Today, we're honored to feature Manar Swaby, an accessibility and language justice strategy consultant and advocate. Manar is the CEO and Founder of Sway B Access LLC, a consulting firm dedicated to advancing accessibility, language, justice and equity driven design. With over eight years of experience, Manar has transformed organizational strategies for municipalities and nonprofits, ensuring communities most impacted are at the center of change. Join us as we explore Manar's journey and insights on creating inclusive systems and driving equity through strategic design.

00:49 Christopher Michael Lee  

Welcome to IAAP and our podcast Manar. Welcome. It's great to have you here today, and we're looking forward to learning about you and your work. You want to start off just telling us a little bit about your background and the work you do around accessibility. 

01:03 Manar-ul Islam Swaby  

Yeah, I'm happy to be here. Thank you, Christopher. So, my name is Manar-ul Islam Swaby, mostly go by Manar, she, they, pronouns. I grew up in New York City in a black immigrant family from the Caribbean, the English-speaking Caribbean. My dad's from Jamaica, my mom's from Trinidad, by way of England to the states. But I ultimately was trained as an educator. So started off teaching. My last teaching gig, I was a middle school math teacher in St Louis, Missouri, in a predominantly black school, and that's where I really started asking questions and started learning a lot more around just like how disability showed up in my students and overall, have been really interested in informal learning and just thinking about social change from like a community level and through my own identities and experiences, have sort of touched on and thought about language and disability and how that showed up for me, but it wasn't until I started doing this work more formally did I start actually understanding, like my relationship to disability, and came into my own disability as somebody who's neuro divergent, have ADHD and auditory processing disorder, and so I think just by stepping into this career, I've learned a lot more about myself, and have been able to tap into my personal experiences and brought that into the work that I do. But yeah, I started off this work when formally at the city of Boston, and I was their first person in the organization who centered language access and communications access, and it was really through that particular role, I was able to center this work more formally. And, you know, think about it well beyond compliance, but think about what do real people need, and how can we build that within an organization? 

02:55 Christopher Michael Lee  

Okay, there's so much there that I'd like to unpack, but I have to circle back around to you about, you know, when you described language, you know, access and communication access, can you drill down that just a second so that listeners can understand exactly what you're talking about there? 

03:10 Manar-ul Islam Swaby  

Yeah, happy to so what is quite helpful is that there are some federal compliance regulations and standards out there that define what language access and what disability access, specifically around effective communication, what that looks like. But the way that I think it's more helpful to sort of reflect to people is really thinking about, you know, how does an organization provide a service to people who speak more than one language or who don't speak English? You know, how does an organization or a program serve a person who might rely on a particular assistive technology to communicate. So when we talk about language access and communications access is really about how are individuals able to communicate in ways that are most aligned with who they are, and in ways where they're able to fully express themselves as meaningfully as possible? Yeah, I guess I can go on and talk about sort of like the federal compliance centers, but that's less interesting than the more like, how this shows up.

04:08 Christopher Michael Lee  

That's great. I appreciate that. I think our listeners will appreciate that. So first of all, when you started talking about language, I was thinking, oh gosh, she's SLP, which I, I worked with a lot of SLPs growing up, and I also have auditory processing deficits, so I speak slightly different because the sounds and the symbols don't match up. So, I'm curious, if you don't mind, you know, talking a little bit more about your disability and how it impacts you in your daily life. At work, through school. You went to school through social situations.

04:39 Manar-ul Islam Swaby  

Yeah, happy to I think, what I think could be also very helpful. There's a statistic I wanted to bring with me about how in kindergarten, black children are 70% less likely to be diagnosed with ADHD compared to white children. And so, this is definitely has been, you know, my experience like only came into my disability much later in life and I think there's a larger conversation around how people even, like, think about, you know, diagnosis or think about disability in relation to people by other identities, thinking about, like, race, thinking about gender, etc. So, I came into my disability much later in life, in my early mid, actually my mid-20s, and now in my early 30s, so not that long ago. And you know, it's only upon reflection, when I think about my time in school, was it sort of like aha moment. I'm like, "oh, that's why that was so hard." That's why these situations that people generally say are, you know, not energy consuming or exhausting like, feel really exhausting to me. That's why I organize my thoughts this way. And I think especially in terms of auditory processing, I just had no idea I didn't have language for that. I just know that I'm someone who always has to look at people's lips when they're talking. I need, like, captions, or at the very least, that is very helpful to me. You know, when I watch TV, I always have subtitles on, like those things. You know, I just learned practices that were helpful to me, but it wasn't until I started actually engaging in this work that formally was I able to actually, you know, connect those experiences to sort of, like what I was reading on paper, or experiencing with other people that I was meeting. So, I guess in terms of, and maybe that's part of, like a future, part of the conversation around like, the beauty of like having a business is being able to design that space for ways that are truly customized to me. And so thinking about, how do I use my time? I'm somebody who very much gets into hyper focus mode and time blindness, like, you know, all these, I think a lot of ways that people think about ADHD, I just hadn't, I just didn't have language for it. And so, I think it's been really empowering to be able to put language to it and then also meet people and be in relationship, especially other like black, queer women who also have ADHD that has been probably the excuse me, it has been the most, yeah, like empowering part of my experience with disability as well. 

06:58 Christopher Michael Lee  

It's amazing how surrounding yourself with people that have similar things going on with them makes a lot of difference, especially when you have, you know, so much of a hidden disability, in a sense, and people who understand that a lot, and although processing people don't get it's very difficult to understand that, because you know you're not you can hear fine, right? It's that processing side of it that that gets a little bit messed up. So, I appreciate you sharing that I really do. So, you're a CEO, you have a company. Tell us about what you're doing. 

07:27 Manar-ul Islam Swaby  

Yeah, happy to, so I have a company. It's called Sway B Access LLC. I usually describe it. It's an accessibility and language justice consulting company. Ultimately, I just see this as the best vehicle for me to do the work that I'm really passionate about. And I mentioned earlier that I'm, you know, the way that I think is very systems driven and very organizational, or structured by, well, let me say this, the way that I think is very systems driven and by looking at an organization that is so complex, thinking about funding, thinking about, you know, staffing, thinking about policies, thinking about what are the services we provide? There are so many things to consider. And so, when you're asking, "Okay, how are you as an organization, ready to be accessible? Are you building and designing accessible services?" A lot of people don't really know where to start. And so that is very, I guess exciting is not the right word. But what is really cool, I think about entering those spaces is being able to identify, what are some, you know, not just best practices, but what are like, innovative and more customized ways for that particular organization, given their audience, given, you know, maybe their funding size, given other structural pieces, like, how can we design something that's customized for them? So, can you give us an example? When you walk into a company, you're like, wow, I've got this. I can see what needs to be done. And this is the plan to do that. Can you give us, kind of, like, some tips of things that you kind of did to improve a company's inclusiveness. Yeah, and I think it's also helpful to frame that most of the organizations I work with are all, I would say, probably like 85 to 90% of them are government organizations, so they're usually local, county or even state level, and the other 10 ish percent are like nonprofit organizations, and specifically, like government is bound by very specific, you know, legal compliance standards. And so there tends to be, I think, when working with an organization understanding, like, who is prioritizing this work at what level in the organization, like, if your CEO or whatever, you know, the mayor, whoever is in executive leadership, doesn't see this as a priority. That's going to really impact how other things happen in organization that might seem more tangential, but oftentimes, I mean one of the most, I think, important and helpful ways is to really think about like staff as a really impactful resource. Obviously, organizations are comprised of a whole bunch of things. We talked about money, you know, policies, etc., but obviously, like, the people are really the lifeblood of these spaces, and so ensuring that people just have just, you know, a basic understanding of, like, what are you supposed to do? Like, what are your frontline staff supposed to do? If a person walks up, you know, a Deaf person walks up, they need a sign language interpreter. Do they even know what that means? Do they know where to go for that? So typically, we'll do some sort of, you know, one on one training, but a lot of the times with these organizations, they have no infrastructure, and so we're really just pointing out, like, here are all the things that we're seeing. But, you know, and we've, we typically do community engagement and need assessments, so we're actually talking to people in the community, like, what are your priorities? Where do you seeing the most challenge? You know, maybe, there are certain departments you're seeing this you're having more challenging experiences than others, and that's what will help us prioritize. A lot of the organizations we work with, yeah, are starting from scratch, which is really unfortunate, given that there are, you know, these legal regulations and obligations that all of these government organizations have to abide to. 

11:04 Christopher Michael Lee  

You know, I'm so glad ole you brought in the whole work that you're doing around non-English speakers. It's so you know, it's an area that you know. You look at the literacy in the US particularly, and people that you know struggle with reading, whether their background didn't provide them the necessary means to learn how to read or write, in a sense. And then you've got people with cognitive disabilities that struggle with auditorium visual processing, as you talked about. Then you've got this mixture of, you know, non-English speakers. Can you talk a little bit about your work when you go into an organization, and how does that unfold? Being, you know, working with the individuals, the employees of the organization, and implementing, you know, I guess strategies around non English speakers.

11:53 Manar-ul Islam Swaby  

Yeah. I mean, I like to think my practice is being very people centered, and people driven. And so typically, you know, when I'm talking to an organization who's sort of at this stage of, like, what do we do? How are we thinking about them? I really, you know, hold to them. Like we need to be centering two groups of people, like one, like the people in your organization, like the staff, who are actually moving these practices. But then also, of course, who are, you know, the end users, quote, unquote, who are the people receiving the services? Or who are, you know, who, ultimately, you're designing these programs for, and what are their direct experiences? And so typically, like, the process incorporates two parallel like needs assessments, one that's centered on internal staff, we’ll look at policies, etc., the things written on paper. But more practically, like, what are people actually doing? What are people actually seeing? And then at the same time, we'll also have a similar process, but focus within, you know, within their own quote, I don't like to use the word target communities, but the people that these programs are for, and so a lot of the times, the way that we do that, because also a lot of governments, when a lot of people, of these, you know, of marginalized backgrounds, like, think about government oftentimes it is a challenging relationship. Oftentimes there is a dynamic where a lot of people feel like, well, these governments, you know, the government doesn't really care about me, or maybe, just like, the services aren't for me, I'm not the people that they want. And so in order to navigate that, we really partner and work really closely with community based organizations, because we recognize a that they're, you know, they're the ones who are even more intimately connected to these communities, right? That we're trying to expand these services to ensure that they understand what the process is. So, I would say those are the two sort of Yeah, larger groups or larger yeah groups of people that we prioritize, like identifying what are the solutions? Like the solutions are with the people who are engaging with the programs. 

13:47 Christopher Michael Lee  

That's a nice approach, looking at it from both those sides, right? You know, sometimes you come in and you look more at the infrastructure of the organization, and then the target population, slash, it's hard not to say that. Now you got it on my mind? Well, so I want to talk just really a little bit about the community-based organizations, because that, you know, that's such an important area that that is overlooked a lot of times for true impact. And it's kind of the I always think of, its kind of like the social worker aspect, right? You know where to go, you know where to connect the dots. Can you speak a little bit more about that, and maybe give some examples of how you've been able to make those linkages? 

14:29 Manar-ul Islam Swaby  

Yeah, I mean, it's again, like, you know, the places that I do, the work is so varied, and so I really have to rely on, you know, does this organization have those relationships in the first place, and in some cases, they don't. And so, in some cases, we're kind of really starting from scratch. But usually departments, what I typically find is that while the whole organization might not have the relationships, quote, unquote, specific departments or specific individuals have those relationships. And so, to identify like, who are these organizations? Anyways, we have to really start from different places depending on the organization. But yeah, there are different types of organizations, some who have a very specific focus, like maybe some folks, the focus is more around, like health literacy. Oftentimes, we'll partner with libraries as well. You know, thinking about community centers, thinking about, yeah, like spaces that provide technical assistance or any sort of direct service, as long as they say, Yeah, we work with X particular community that is in focus, you know, then we're sort of welcoming them in the space and trying to understand, like, well, what is your experience? What are you seeing? And those organizations? So, we not only engage with those organizations directly, but then we host focus groups, and that's when we're inviting individual people with lived experience to come into those spaces and share, you know, this is what I'm experiencing directly. And we are very clear, you know, we don't record those calls, we don't, you know, share any personal identifying information. It's very much to understand, like at large, like, what are we seeing in terms of trends? Are there commonalities? Maybe, you know, Spanish speaking communities, or specifically, people from a particular country within that you know language are engaging in this very particular way. That's problematic. And so, then that will fall into how we present the data.

16:18 Christopher Michael Lee  

The government agencies that you mostly work with. You know, funding is always a challenge in the government sphere, and to get funding allocated in the government agencies is very tough any words or thoughts in that area? 

16:34 Manar-ul Islam Swaby  

Oh, my so much. And I, as you were saying about funding, my head was profusely nodding up and down, because that is, that is definitely the challenge. I mean, I think with even, you know, across nonprofits, I think everybody everywhere, even like, especially now, on an individual level, people are talking about, okay, funding money is tight. You know, there's so much happening in this country, in the world, that is contributing to that, but I think oftentimes, unfortunately, with government, I have seen that used as an excuse to do some important work like we do know, of course, that if you're going to have, you know, a VRI telephonic interpretation, translation that does like, these are professional services. You have to pay for it. So, you know, we acknowledge that there is some like, it does require financial investment, but there are also other practices that you can build into, you know, your infrastructure that don't require money. For example, do you have a policy like, is there anything that says this is a priority within your organization? I have also seen, you know, not only thinking about like the top down, but from like, bottom up within an organization, I've also seen a lot of organizations they might have, like, their bilingual staff will come together, and they'll have like, sort of informal working groups trying to understand, okay, you know, the burden is being placed on me because I speak this additional language, and so people keep calling me, like, what are things that we can do? So, you know, it's not just falling on me. So there have been, I think, unique approaches around that, but funding, I think, will always, forever, be the challenge. And so, it is even more important for organizations and leadership, especially to center. Well, what are we doing with the funding that we do have? Like, is this the most effective use of the funding? And what are we also doing with our funding as it relates to time? So we have people resources. We have, you know, time and people's responsibilities, like, what are we prioritizing for them to do? So, I think there are different ways to consider this larger conversation around funding too.

18:36 Speaker  

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19:09 Christopher Michael Lee  

It's so challenging you're so right, and does make your head spin thinking about it, because there's so many funding streams, right? You've talked a little bit about accommodation and that, particularly around you, know that some of those things aren't that expensive. I'm not really saying a policy is, is accommodation but, but they're all things that you know, most accommodations are under $500 now, that's still, that's a lot for a lot of people. That's a lot of money, frankly. But the funding streams that are out there, understanding those funding streams, because they usually don't come from one place, all right. So, it's a, it's a pretty exciting, you know, area to be able to, you know, go to the assistive technology project. So, you go to the independent living organization. It's a lot of work, but you pull together a kind of a plan, and you put some funding behind it. So that’s pretty exciting. Do you work, just curious, do you work in the area of Voc Rehab in the state government is that, is that an area that you've played around in? 

20:10 Manar-ul Islam Swaby  

No, so yeah, typically it's either they're, you know, an organization at large. So it might be, you know, like a city, a particular town, a specific city, a particular county, or it might be a particular agency within that space. And then oftentimes, like, regardless of what type of agency it is, like, we always do some initial work to ensure that, you know, if we're if it's about a training, or we're improving a particular program that we are also building in the actual context, like, if, for example, the space of health care is a very like has its own set of regulations centered around Language Access and Disability Access. Like, there's some very specific, like requirements around, like, what qualifications for an interpreter has to be. So, every industry has its own sort of lane. So, I would say that the ones that I'm most familiar with center on health care. Center on, like, energy efficiency, environmental that space, and then just yeah, government at large.

21:07 Christopher Michael Lee  

Yeah. And you've had some experience in that area, definitely. I mean, you know, as the Former Director of Language and Communication Access, which I love that title, by the way, challenges that you saw in the city of Boston.

21:20 Manar-ul Islam Swaby  

Oh, my so many. Where do I begin? Well, well I will say so I started in 2017 and coming into the city of Boston. Up until that point, there was an ordinance that had been passed, and the infrastructure looked like a list of it was a volunteer interpreter pool. So, there's a list of bilingual staff who folks could call if they needed help with interpreting. And then there were some interpretation equipment devices that were there. So that's the only thing that the city had. There were no procedures internally. There was no sort of, like central funding stream. There was nobody Like, who do we even go to? And so, a lot of the folks, they would go to the office of immigrant advancement or the disability commissions, and so those were the two sort of considered content experts. So, when I came in, you know, seeing all this, I'm like, okay, well, what are our priorities? If we have, really, I don't want to say nothing, but we have pretty minimal infrastructure. Like, where do we start? So, I will say, you know, the biggest challenge, I think, was starting from scratch. And it's like before we can even get to a place to say, "hey, people, community, people receiving our services like this is how you should advocate for yourself", or this, you know, this is, this is how you should navigate this system. You know, if you need to request an interpreter, for example, before we can even do any of that stuff or advertising, "hey, we're going to provide interpretation services." We have to be clear on what we're doing internally within the organization, and similar to what you're saying, like funding time, there are a lot of limitations as to what do we do first. But I am really grateful because, you know, had some really wonderful mentors within the organization and outside of the organization at other cities that I really leaned on at the very beginning to understand, like, what is the best way to implement this within the context of government, because implementation within government is unlike anything else. There are a lot of challenges just to move things the higher in government. Hugo is in like moving from working in a town versus a city, versus a county versus a state, the pace with which things can move and that which decisions are made really impact, you know, what the end product will look like, or how quickly you'll be able to get there? Yeah. So I would say there are a number of challenges, but I would say at the very beginning it was like, well, identifying, you know, what our priorities are, given that we are starting from bare minimum. 

23:42 Christopher Michael Lee  

Okay, so I'm going to put you on the spot, because earlier in our podcast, you mentioned something about some of your challenges, some of your areas, particularly around ADHD, if I recall. And so I want to give you an opportunity to kind of back up and when you say, you know, when you have, when you walk in the city of Boston, you know, like you had to begin, and there was so much that you had to do in this different ways you can go. A lot of people don't realize ADHD folks are really good at that. And do you, what did you from your characteristics and knowing your disability, what were you able to lean on in regard to your ADHD, and how did that help? Or did it?

24:23 Manar-ul Islam Swaby  

Okay? Such great questions. I think it's so funny because at that time, when I was starting that job, I had, like, didn't even know I had ADHD, like, you know, I was just moving through life as I did, and I'm always somebody. I've always considered myself like a very passionate person and very driven. And I think, you know, now where I'm at now I'm looking back, I'm like, okay, these specific topics, yes, are particularly of interest to me. And because of that, that is what has allowed me to move, like, at a million miles an hour, you know, gun ho, into this work in this way. I think for me, it was also important that I establish like boundaries and like guideline, guide rails for myself as well. I think especially work that is very I don't know that I that I'm, like, particularly hyper focused, and I can very easily get lost in and forget that "oh my gosh, it's like 8pm What am I doing?" And honestly, I have had those experiences, especially when I was working on things, and other times it was like, you know, deadline driven. So it's not like, Oh, I'm just so excited, and that's why I'm working. I'm like, oh, I have to meet this thing. And I'm not prioritizing, you know, myself in very specific ways. But I will say another thing that I would say is the way that my brain works, and I think looking at things has always been from a structural lens and just looking at systems and how the different components of the systems and how those overlap. And I don't know for sure, you know, it could be due to a number of things, but I have a hunch that that is definitely connected to my ADHD. And then, you know, think when people talk about, like, what are your superpowers? Like? That's what I've always said, is being able to see things from, like, a million miles in the air, but then also be able to drill down and get really detailed and be able to move between those two spaces. I think that is what has really allowed me to engage in this work from the systems level and be effective in it. Yeah, I attribute that to ADHD also so. 

26:26 Christopher Michael Lee  

You know, it's interesting, because you know that hyper focus ability is just awesome. It's like a superpower. But then you're like, okay, well, I forgot about dinner, and what am I going to do about my about better half over here, it's a great thing, but it is something that you have to embrace holistically, because it impacts so much. But I put so many folks that have ADHD talk about in a positive way when they're able to multitask like that.

26:54 Manar-ul Islam Swaby  

And I will say on top of that, I think you know, on the other side of that, what I have also historically has been very challenging for me, especially before I started, like, medication has been, like, starting tasks. And I think, you know, even thinking about my time in college, I would always, you know, just have these sort of, like, negative self-talk about, like, why can't I get this thing started? Like, it's not that hard to just, like, do this thing. And I think having like language to be like, okay, I already knew it wasn't because I'm lazy, but I don't know why I couldn't just get over that hump. I mean, even now, like, I take medication, you know, specifically for ADHD, but I still experience that. And I think what I have grown into is really, you know, self-compassion, like a lot of things, where I, you know, if I just, like, can't get started like, that's okay. Like, let's go do something. Let's focus on something that is actually going to be more enjoyable. And I think the part of having a business, even though it is very deliverables focused and still has, like, very specific deadlines and like, meetings and things like that, I think, yeah, this space, this container, just like, allows my brain to be more at ease and to be as it is and has been intended to be, yeah. 

28:05 Christopher Michael Lee  

So, you founded a language access network. Tell us a little bit about that. 

28:11 Manar-ul Islam Swaby  

Yeah. So, it's the municipal language access network started in 2018. I think the end of 2018 going into 2019 and this is when I was still at the city of Boston. And honestly, it was a very selfish endeavor at the time, you know, limited time, and doing a million things. And what was so wonderful for me was to be able to connect to other folks who had a similar role in other cities and counties. So, I was always like, maybe not always, but I had, very frequently would have conversations with people maybe had something scheduled at the very least, like once a week. And I was like, this is not sustainable, but this is giving me so much joy, and I'm also just like learning so much. I'm not just building relationships with people who really get it and understand the challenges of moving through this organization, but they also have, you know, different approaches, like, you know, some spaces had fully built out bilingual pay programs. Like, how are we compensating our staff who have this additional, you know, multilingual skill they had, you know, another one might have a, you know, a unique partnership with community organizations and how they're compensating them. It wasn't always about money, but there are just so many unique things that were happening. And I was like, how do I stay, you know, immersed in this. And so, ask the folks who I was, you know, in communication with pretty frequently, if they were interested in getting together as a group. So I think we started off at like 5-10, people to like 20 and, you know, five years later, I think it is now they're like 500 people in that network, which is really cool to see like, how I think that that highlights, like, how the quote, unquote "industry around language access" has grown as in there more spaces that are directly prioritizing this work specifically within government. I will say I'm no longer a part of the network because I no longer work in government, but you know, they're doing really wonderful things, and, you know, I'm able to connect with them and learn about some of the things that they're doing. They host, you know, sessions at different conferences. They have, I think, pretty often monthly, like shows and tells for people to share, like, great things that are happening in their organization. But yeah, it's an initiative or a thing that I did that I'm very proud of. 

30:22 Christopher Michael Lee  

I love that. I love the fact that advocacy piece is there and that you stepped up to that it shows your compassion and just the love of the work that you're doing and in this area. And so people want to get access to that. That acronym is m, l, a, n, correct. Yes, that is correct. And so there is currently a Google forum that exists. I think that's the only way to really, you know, identify that you want to join the group. The only caveat is that it's only open to people who work in government. It doesn't matter what your role is, but as long as, yeah, you work in government, that's the only way you'll be allowed to be a part of the group, but otherwise, yeah. So just to look that up, Evelyn, municipal language access network.  Thank you for that. So just to brag on you a little bit, you hold a Master of Education from Havard knowledge innovations and education. Pretty impressive. How has this educational background influenced your approach to accessibility and languages? 

31:25 Manar-ul Islam Swaby  

Thank you. I mentioned, I think, earlier on, that my I'm, like, formally trained as an educator, specifically within this program, specifically I was trained around learning design and so that is, you know, a framework and approach to like, how do you build, you know, impactful learning experiences, whether that is a course, whether that, you know, it might be a program, it might be, you know, a digital learning course, it could be a lot of different things. But how do you design that, that framework around design? I mean, design looks different in different spaces, but I think the foundational elements of design is pretty applicable. So even though, within the program, I was centered around, how are you building learning experiences, once I left that and started, you know, stepped into this other work around accessibility and language justice, was able to apply that. Okay, how are we designing entire organizations? How are we actually designing systems that you know, that actually serve again, the quote, unquote end user. That's a term that's used often in the design world. It's not my favorite, but just use it for there. But I will say the most impactful course that I took was with my late professor, Thomas Hair, who was an educator, lifelong advocate, specifically centering students with disabilities. I think he sat on a commission around the idea being in that class. That was the first time I even heard of Universal Design for Learning. And you know those principles, even though, again, there's also universal design, you know, in general, and then those principles were leveraged specifically within the educational context. But you know, those ideas multiple means of representation, engagement, expression, those are the similar concepts we're thinking about when we're designing an organization. Or, you know, trying to improve how an organization moves right, or, slash, improve how a program is functioning. Like, how do you expect, you know, the participants to actually know about this program. How are you expecting the participants to engage with the staff who are working at this program? You know? So I think there's similar, similar questions. But then at the end of the day, acknowledging that regardless of what the output is, there's never going to be just like one single design that's going to meet everybody's needs. Like we acknowledge that you have to, more than likely there, there are going to be, you know, there have to be multiple ways for people to engage with that particular experience. Instead of just saying, email us. Here, it might be email, here's a phone call, here's, you know, maybe we have a video phone. That's the connection that I typically make. It's not like sort of a one to one, but it was definitely very influential in in in my framing around this work. 

31:46 Christopher Michael Lee  

It's amazing when that, you know, I love when you just do in the class and you're like, okay, and a light goes on, go. This is so right, yeah. I mean, and UDL UD, I mean, it is. It just as a foundation, and it just makes sense. And in all areas, and in communication with just your friends and family members, all kinds of stuff. We're coming to the end. And you know, I want to ask you, what's on the horizon, what's next? Some projects you've got going on.

34:32 Manar-ul Islam Swaby  

Fun, fun. You know, there are some long-term projects that I'm working on, currently working with the county who's looking for best practices in partnering with community organizations. Have a contract with a state agency. They're just looking to establish their language access work, especially at the intersection of environmental justice, but then more specifically, I would say, and less connected to the sort of external like client-based work within survey access we have, I'm wanting to start, you know, quarterly round tables. We had the first one last year. And it's really like an invitation for professionals who are interested and passionate about this intersection of accessibility and language justice, to just be in community and conversation with one another. That is something I'm really excited about, because I think there are not enough spaces where people can really hold these two topics, you know, and hold them together, and be able to look at them together, like the spaces of language, access and disability and then, like racial, you know, justice, like, I think all there are a lot of these spaces that they're really wonderful professionals and and people who are passionate about this work, and I think it would do us all a service to, like, look at how those things overlap and how those things intersect with one another. 

35:50 Christopher Michael Lee  

That's exciting stuff. It really is. And you know, I'm so, I'm so glad that we, we had the opportunity to have you on this podcast. It's an area to be frank with you, I haven't touched a lot of I've touched a lot around plain language, you know, ESL, and all you know that that aspect of it, and the literacy aspect, but you've really opened my eyes in some in some areas, and I really appreciate it. And I know you're going to, we're going to have that same approach with our listeners too, but it's just a very unique area that's so important. So, do you have any key takeaways? 

36:22 Manar-ul Islam Swaby  

Yeah, definitely. And thank you for those words. I imagine there are a lot of different types of listeners here. I think if you're a direct service provider, maybe provide services specifically to people with disabilities. I encourage you to reach out to you know organizations that serve immigrant communities. There are obviously a lot of you know, immigrants, migrants, refugees, asylees, who have disabilities, who don't even know that there are services that are available. So, I think that direct connection would encourage, you know, on both sides for that to happen, and I think on a personal level that can be applied to everything that we do. I encourage everybody to really just center, just keep intersectionality at the forefront again, I decided earlier on my experience as a black woman with disability, you know, I'm received in you know, there are just so many ways that these overlap that really impact my experience, and so I really encourage everybody to consider, yeah, just how different identities, yeah, might impact a person's experience and how it's our responsibility then to design for that and not in spite of it, that's excellent. Thank you so much and thank you for your time today and spending it with us. I'm really excited about going out, and I'm looking forward to seeing what you do next. I do hope that we can have you back, maybe with a webinar or something like that, because this is an area that I think, in the disability arena, that we don't heal much, I know we don't heal much about, and it's a beautiful thing that we need to bring in. Thank you so much. Yeah, and I'm very much happy to this is my I am so like, I love this work, and I honestly am very grateful that I get to do this and make this my actual work and yeah, I would love to partner with you all and do anything like that. 

38:05 Christopher Michael Lee  

Great. Thank you so much. 

38:08 Manar-ul Islam Swaby  

Thank you. 

38:09 Speaker  

The International Association of Accessibility Professionals Membership consists of individuals and organizations representing various industries, including the private sector, government, nonprofits and educational institutions. Membership benefits include products and services that support global systemic change around the digital and built environment. United in Accessibility, join IAAP and become a part of the global accessibility movement.