E53: Accessibility in Action: A Conversation with Glenda Sims

In this episode of United in Accessibility, we speak with Glenda Sims, Chief Information Accessibility Officer at Deque Systems and recipient of the 2024 IAAP Outstanding Service Award. Glenda shares her accessibility journey, the importance of mentorship, and how collaboration, ethical AI, and professional certification are shaping a future where digital access is a right, not a barrier.

Transcript

Speaker 00:04

Welcome to the IAAP United in Accessibility podcast. Today, we're honored to feature Glenda Sims, a pioneering voice in digital accessibility and a long-time champion of inclusive design. Glenda serves as the Chief Information Accessibility Officer at Deque systems, where she leads strategy, governance and innovation to embed accessibility at every level of the organization. With decades of experience, she has contributed to the W3C, Accessibility Guidelines Working Group, co-authored InterACT with web standards and helped shape the field through her work with Knowbility and initiatives like AccessU. In 2024 Glenda received the IAAP Outstanding Service Award, recognizing her exceptional dedication to advancing accessibility through service, leadership and education. Join us as we explore Glendas journey, the evolution of accessibility standards and what it takes to build a future where technology works for everyone on the United in Accessibility podcast.

Sam Evans 01:14

Hi. This is Sam Evans, the Certification Director at IAAP, the International Association of Accessibility Professionals, and we're here today on our podcast, United in Accessibility, and we have the great opportunity to get a chance to talk with Glenda Sims. And I know Glenda, but this is a really wonderful time for all of you to get to know whether you're listening or reading along to get to know Glenda Sims, her background, her history and why she came to be recognized with an IAAP Outstanding Service Award at our M-Enabling conference in October of 2024. So Glenda, if you would please introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about how you got started with your passion for accessibility and how you started in your career in accessibility.

Glenda Sims 02:04

Great question, Sam, thanks so much for having me on your podcast, and I'll tell you that I've been introducing myself as Glenda the Good Witch for as long as I can remember. At one point I started adding Glenda, the Good Witch of Accessibility, because I've been focusing my career on digital accessibility since the 90s. And where did that passion begin? I can trace it back even further beyond digital but in the 90s, it really began at the University of Texas at Austin, even before it was clear that digital accessibility was a legal requirement. Because when you're sitting on a university campus with students and faculty and staff and you know, the whole state of Texas, how can you not give everybody equal access to learning, to art, to sports, and so it was just a natural and the persons that really opened the door for me were Dr John Slayton, who was faculty member at University of Texas at Austin, and Sharon Rush, the executive director of novelty, both in Austin, Texas and I jokingly say I'm their accessibility love child. I'm not really. I'm not they're not my mom and dad, but they're my accessibility mom and dad. They took me in, they introduced me, they taught me what I needed to know. They helped me launch my career. So, for the rest of my life, I feel it's responsible for me to do that for others, because they did it for me. 

Sam Evans 03:58

If any of you have not had the chance to find or work with a mentor, Glenda is referring to people that have helped her come up, learn from mentor guide. And I know that she has long-standing relationships with Sharon and was with Mr. Slaton as well. But Glenda, both formally and informally, has been a mentor to I would venture to guest hundreds, if not 1000s of people, if ever you're lucky enough to have a chance to work with, learn from, or participate in something with, Glenda Sims, by all means, make the time. So, I'm a little biased, because I have a great deal of respect and have had the pleasure of working with Glenda for coming up on almost 10 years now. So next year will be 10 since I joined with IAAP, but Glenda, when I first learned about your work with IAAP, you were part of the founding group that wanted to put together, and I remember finding a blog post. I think you had a blog originally called Glenda the Good, and you put out a public ask on your blog about, what do you think about a digital accessibility certification? And so, you started gathering some feedback way back when. So, we’ll talk a little bit about that later. But I just remember one of my first introductions when I first learned about IAAP was to take a back chance and read the information that you had put out to your social networks and so I was like, wow, this sounds now I understand the people. So, it's always been focused on the people IAAP as an organization to grow our next generations, plural of accessibility professionals. And so, you worked in other places before coming to Deque, but you've been with Deque more than 10 years, and you have a new role in the last two years at Deque, but can you talk a little bit about how your career and your roles have changed and evolved, and maybe what some of those milestones are. I'll let you mention the more recent one. 

Glenda Sims 05:48

Absolutely. So, when I left the University of Texas, I hadn't planned to do anything except work at the University of Texas and retire from there, but February of 2011 I got the opportunity to go to work for Deque. The reason I picked Deque was I could have a further reach. I could have a further impact than at just the University of Texas in Austin. And as I stepped into that role, I was a digital accessibility expert, and I thought I would blow everybody's socks off at Deque, because I'd been raised by Dr. John Slayton and Sharon Rush, and I walked into that environment, and it was so fast paced and so audacious in the mission to further digital accessibility that I felt, oh my gosh. I don't know if I can keep up with these people. So ever since joining Deque as a digital accessibility expert, I've been reminded to always be humble. Don't think, oh, well, I'd had a decade of this, but it doesn’t matter. You always got something to learn, and our environment is always changing. So started as an individual contributor, was then allowed to manage some people and help create with a team our testing methodologies and so lovely evolution career path, and to be able to stay at one company and do this. Why am I still here? Because there's no place else where I feel my energy can be used in more productive ways in this mission. So in the summer of 2022 I was named Chief Information Accessibility Officer at Deque, and I initially thought, you know, I've really been doing this work, and so this title is just a formality, but as I reflected on it, and really experienced being the chief, I didn't know what I didn't know there was a whole other level of learning when you step up to that role. But I will admit my favorite part was when pre and I were deciding on the title, do we go with Chief Accessibility Officer, or do we slide the I in there for Chief Information Accessibility Officer? And we slid the "I" in because I asked pretty. I love everything about helping people with disabilities, whether it's reasonable accommodation for work hours or a chair or digital assistive technology. I love it all, but my expertise, my muscle is in the digital space. And so pretty agreed that if we put the I in my title, I can keep my energy focused on the digital space, and then for our own organization, whenever I need to help with physical or accommodations, I can support our HR and then create the CIAO, which also says Ciao, which is fun. And I wanted to say that historic moments while I've been at Deque, when I think about 'em, it's not about me, it's about I was here working with a team, when Paul Bowman said, what if we make scholarships to Deque University available for people with disabilities? And I went, ah, I love that idea. It was his idea. I advocated for it. And the impact of that to be working at a place where that can happen, and then other people can launch careers off of this that, to me, was a beautiful moment, and when we open-sourced axe-core was such a proud moment. It wasn't me as over on the software side out of the house, but I was able to advocate for it when we were considering doing it, because the whole point is, let's use our human energy wisely. And by opening axe-core, then all these different companies and even free open source that were creating different versions of the rules, we could all focus on one set as a group, as a community, for free, and then use the other brain power to solve bigger problems. The last one I've got to mention is axe-con, offering training at a conference online for free, and continuing to do that and to reach far beyond our accessibility community, where the people we're reaching are the ones that need to be aware of these requirements. So, there are milestones of things that the team at Deque has done together.

Sam Evans 11:03

And since we're in audio format, this is Sam Evans, and I have been waving my hands in applause in sign language, because axe-con is such a massive win for everyone. I send people every year I look forward to every year. It's a great way in. It's a great introduction. So, I think it's a sign of a really good community-based outreach program from a company doing the work and delivering ways in, ways forward in education. So, I'm a big fan, so I know that you probably hear really cheesy references for Glenda and the Wizard of Oz and things. But one of the things that in the movie version, Glenda told Dorothy was that you've always had the power, the knowledge, you just had to need to learn how to use it. And I think that axe-con is really one of those ways that we can really tell people they need to learn how to use it. And I think opening the open source code with axe too really it took away the proprietary nature and allowed people to start to learn how to use the tools and making that available without a gateway, so to speak, it exists in other parts of the market is huge, and it really is an expression of a commitment to furthering accessibility, awareness and knowledge and capacity. So not all companies take that path, and if you don't know, we'll put some links into the podcast for the transcript with axe and axe-con. So you talked a good bit, Glenda, about some of your initiatives that you worked in, but I know that you also do a good bit of volunteer time, and while you keep a good balance of work life, but can you talk a little bit about some of your other favorite past or present volunteer roles, where you spend your time outside of work, contributing to accessibility or other passions?

Glenda Sims 12:58

So, I think that two of the most significant things in my life that have helped me in my career path is I'm going to go back to Sharron Rush and Knowbility. There is a competition there called the Accessibility Internet Rally. I think it's more than 20 years old now, I think it may have just turned 20, and it matches developers that don't know accessibility with nonprofits who need a website. Teaches the developers how to create an accessible site, and then there are judges and mentors to help during the process. So, I'm going to judge for as long as I can remember, and I love it, I still dedicate time to it. Why? Why am I doing this? Because it's helping create the next generation. It's helping bring people into the fold, and so I love that work, and we’ll continue to do it as long as I possibly can. There's one other thing that I'm going to mention that predates my accessibility work, and it's the Web Standards Project. There are some super smart people, Jeffrey Zeldmann, Molly Holzschlag, Chris Wilson, I could go on Eric Meyer, who helped build this web further. Tim Berners Lee created it, and then the Web Standards Project was about making sure that it stayed open and available to all, and didn't become just corporate, and I volunteered in that to the point that when I was still at the University of Texas, I reduced my work to 75% time so I could volunteer more for the Web Standards Project and the amazing thing is, I haven't worked with those people directly for more than 15 years. I still run into them because this passion for an open web that's accessible to all once you understand it, it's something that, how could you ever stop working on making sure it stays true? 

Sam Evans 15:23

See, that's a piece of your story that I didn't learn about until today. So very cool. It makes total sense to me. Total sense. We began working together because I was staff at IAAP many years ago when someone said, we have this little program. There's 35 people that took a test. It'll be a small portion of project management of time. Can you speak a little bit, just from recall, not for any kind of accuracy? But what was the concept in the, I know what the concept is behind associations, trying to build professions with core competencies that everyone agrees on terms language and approaches. So that's my background, but you were part of a group of professionals who said we should put some kind of practice together to make a baseline core competency. What is the bottom third of that pyramid from Paul Bowman's diagram that you've shared with us? But can you speak a little bit about what that was like in 2013/2014 when this idea first was formed.

Glenda Sims 16:24

It was fascinating, as I was working at Deque and Deque was growing, growing, growing, growing, we had started to establish our interview process and a test process as well as training and testing beyond to make sure that people had the knowledge that they needed to do to do the work. And I knew that creating that for Deque was nice, but everybody needed it, and so many of us were self-taught. There's no college course, or there certainly wasn't when in the 90s, so self-taught, we didn't know what we didn't know. We only knew what, whoever mentored us, whatever blog, how many of us taught ourselves from WEBAIMs content. I taught myself so many things from the web in WebAIMs content, and what I realized is that there were so many gaps in people's knowledge. Even people with 10 years experience, they had gaps. Depending on where they'd look. I had gaps. And so, I recognize that somebody needed to create the certification program, but if we did it inside a dot com then it needed to be neutral. It needed to be, I'm going to use the term Switzerland, needed to be in some place where it wasn't for profit. It was for the good of the profession. I'm so grateful that we realized this and IAAP started to stand up and say, we’re going to try and do this, because the rigor of people like you Sam, that understand how to build true professional certifications is not something that your digital accessibility community knows about. And so, it was so exciting to know this was needed, but then to join forces with other people who knew how to build certification programs, and I'll admit, I didn't understand the impact of certifications. And you probably could have told me this from the beginning. You couldn't have told me, but I was trying to do it to help people understand what things they didn't know, so that they could grow and have a better whole picture. And I was also trying to make sure that employers who didn't know a lot about digital accessibility would have a shot at hiring people that had a baseline of knowledge and knew where to get more were connected to community where they could get more, and the whole Continuing Education Credits, I didn't recognize how powerful a piece and how important a piece that was, because our industry, you can't ever stop learning. And so, the certification supports that so strongly, because once you get certified, you don't want to let it go, which means you need to do your continuing education credits, which does what makes you better at what you do.

Sam Evans 19:47

It makes us better at our jobs. It helps us be aware of what other people in industry are doing. It helps us follow trends and understand what's changed, because we all know technology changes in the blink of an eye and so technology and accessibility are tied. They're on the same tracks, they may be in different channels, but the changes are just as rapid and so having the opportunity to participate in learning and education, and Deque does a great job of offering that out. You know, with your scholarship you mentioned, but as a regular player in ongoing outreach, it's really nice thing to see it be successful, just so that, you know, we just put out our results from the end of 2024 so now we have more than 6000 people who've earned CPACC across the last eight years. That's a lot of people from that idea way back in 2014 to talk about this idea. And that means there are 6000 people that I think are doing a lot of what you hoped, bringing this out to the rest of the world, outside of our circles, and expanding the knowledge and awareness, that's big reach.

Glenda Sims 20:51

 It is. And I remember my first presentations on it, when a lot of people were concerned, like, wait a second, I've been in this field for 15 years already. I don't want a certification, and you can't certify this and who are you? And what I realized is, I wanted to get certified so I would know how to help others to get a sense of and talk to my staff who were experienced. Do you feel like you benefited from studying for the CPACC and studying for the WAS? Every one of them has said yes. And in one of my career path conversations, I had somebody come to me, and I wish I knew exactly what year it was. She came to me, and she was a special education teacher for students with disabilities in the K-12 environment, if I remember correctly, and she said, “I want to move into digital accessibility as a field. How can I get started? And we have the conversation, and you know what I'm going to get to really quick in that conversation is, if you're really interested in pursuing this field, there are two certifications that you can consider. There are the core competencies that's a good foundation for everyone, and there's the Web Accessibility Specialist certification. And we have that conversation, and I will tell you this morning, that person passed their WAS.

Sam Evans 22:24

Great.

Glenda Sims 22:26

Notified me as one of the first people, because I'm the one that said, here's this path, and she is now a CPWA. She has both. Having a CPACC or a WAS doesn't mean you're the best at it. It reminds me of a driver's license. It doesn’t mean I'm a great driver, but it means I've studied, and I passed an exam, and I know there are rules that Should apply by, and so I think it's so valuable. Oh, and I saw Andrew Kirkpatrick got his certifications today, a man who could have written these certification exams. I love it. So, wherever you are in the journey, they're good for you.

Speaker 23:14

With the adoption of WCAG 2.1 in many countries, there is an increased demand for web developers, designers and other professionals with knowledge of web accessibility standards and guidelines. With this growth comes the need for an objectively verified level of expertise. The Web Accessibility Specialist exam will provide individuals and employers with the ability to assess web accessibility competence, complete the WAS and CPACC exam to earn the special designation of Certified Professional and Web Accessibility.

Sam Evans 23:53

They are. I have had discussions in the last two years with established professionals that are indeed experts who and one of our colleagues that worked with you for a number of years, decided several years back that if he really wanted to lead the next younger generations or newer generations in this field, he needed to support the profession. And so therefore he pursued taking the certifications he could have aced them backwards and forwards each direction same with Andrew, same with you. I remember giving you your CPWA ribbon at CSUN. I was so excited. But I think the most important part of all this is that it is, like you said, it's by accessibility professionals, for accessibility professionals. It is colleagues, peers and mentors, working together to determine what the collection of these professionals really do believe in the workplace are concepts and contexts that people need to be able to apply, and that's a really powerful community build that happens with great volunteers and mentors like yourself and others who want to grow this awareness and spread things. So, it's really rewarding for me to support that work. It's very different than some people who may work in associations or credentialing, where they go to work, and they do a job and support it for something that's totally disconnected from them. Personally, they can be invested, but as myself, as a person with a disability and an advocate and a practitioner, I think it's just the loveliest thing to get to support the work for all of you volunteers. So, we've talked a bit about your passion and your servant leader heart, and the work that you've done at Deque, and axe is going to be an open-source product, and axe-con is a resource. What something or when did you first see, or what do you see as promising about the changes in outside of the accessibility profession, when have you seen starting to notice a shift from accessibility being a niche specialization, a unique set of skills and add on to somebody else's job, and becoming more of a mainstream conversation in the public but also in the workplace?

Glenda Sims 25:57

It's fascinating because it's been that grassroots effort. And I love grassroots effort, but, Oh, they're so exhausting. Feels like we're rolling a boulder up hill, big one. And I think back, and I've been doing this since the 90s. That's a long time. Back then I would rarely run into somebody in the developer space or the design space that knew about accessibility. Now it is becoming more common, and we're really seeing it, I think because of legislation, I think that we have laws in multiple countries that are requiring this, and I'm doing it because it's the right thing to do, and so are a lot of others. But the most exciting thing for me is watching the European Accessibility Act, which is beautiful in the way they've taken all the learnings from all the other countries and boy, did they have their act together. And as we start to work towards there's a there's a demo coming up of this year, 2025, so many people we talk to you already know a little bit about accessibility. Sadly, they often think they know more than they do, which is why the certification programs and the testing tools are so crucial, because we've got these brilliant minds out there, I'm going to characterize the brilliant mind of a developer who is used to learning a new thing in an afternoon, and they can't imagine when we say to them, digital accessibility is going to take you longer than that, and it takes a couple of years for them to finally admit, oh, it was bigger than I thought it was. So that's kind of the evolution that I'm seeing. It used to be people were like, what do you mean a blind person can use a computer? What do you mean? Versus now, where they're like, Well, of course, I know that, but they don't know where their gaps are, but things like European Accessibility Act and the Americans with Disability Act title two, and wonderful things like certification make it possible for people to fill those gaps.

Sam Evans 28:37

And I think so we're recording this in January of 2025 and so that means there's five months and three weeks from the day we're recording this, so by the time this comes here, but I think hopefully people, as they get engaged in the European Union to support the European Accessibility Act, to be able to do business effectively, will pick up on Why? Wow. Why haven't we done this before? Now that we know how we should, we should do this, and so I'm hoping that some of those carrot versus stick will balance out a good bit as we move forward with the European Accessibility Act. But I'm seeing a lot more people understand what it means and not look at me blankly and blank like she said a word and she's looking at me like I know I should understand what she's talking about, and so I see a lot more people understand what it is, or say, oh, that's when you make things more useful for people with disabilities, right? And yes, so it's exciting that people are starting to learn more about it, and it's not a foreign concept. What do you think the biggest challenges we face today in going from as we move into having that become more commonplace in business in general, not just, not just in I know we talk about digital accessibility, but what do you think are the biggest challenges we face right now in the business world with accessibility?

Glenda Sims 29:52

There are two pieces I think that are creating the challenge for accessibility. One of them has been a really long time. And that is, the production of digital interfaces is occurring at such a rapid rate, and the resources needed, the time, energy, the experience, to test them for digital accessibility is high, we can't keep up. So that's the challenge. How do we keep up? The good thing is so many parts of the world are waking up to this so they at least know something needs to be done, and they're making some progress. And here's where I'm so excited. I haven't retired. You realize I could already be retired. Why would I retire when I've been working on this passion project since the 90s? Why am I going to retire right before we're about to solve it? I really believe that the ethical use of AI can come in and help us use our limited human energy and resources super wisely, super focused, and that we can help the developer that knows accessibility is important but doesn't know all the nuances of EAA and EN301549 the next version that hasn't been published yet. Help them get 70%, 80% of it right on their own. Does that mean digital accessibility experts are not going to have jobs. No, the volume of things happening around us is huge. We already but we'll be able to focus on the things that only humans can do. I believe this is going to be solved, and I remember the day when I got a little over optimistic, and Wilco had to pull me back down to the ground. But I started to realize that we can add AI in all these spaces and gain efficiency. In design, in the development life cycle, in Q/A testing. AI to personalize for people with disabilities, the UI interface. Currently, the majority of the interfaces that you and I deal with are one size fits all, or okay, you can have a laptop version and a tablet version and a mobile version. So, there's three sides. It fits all well. Three sizes don't really fit us all, but when the AI knows you, and the AI knows your preferences, and we get this AI assistance between us and the interface, and we know they're there, and we know AI is being used, then there’s magic happening all around the circle. I'm giddy with anticipation.

Sam Evans 33:11

So I'm going to guess that that, think the news trend that that's, that's what's caught your eye most recently, is that the possibility for ethical AI that's transparent and not data digging and doing things that people are nervous about to help people choose the interface and the interaction process that they prefer. 

Glenda Sims 33:34

Absolutely. And I'm going to share another piece of this story. To highlight the danger and let you know that I do understand the danger and how extraordinarily real it is. I was talking to Joe Devon, who is co-creator of Global Accessibility Awareness Day, and Joe said something to me that I had not even thought of. He's like Glenda, what happens when AI is in a brain computer interface? You mean like The Matrix, like, What? What? When he started to describe, let's imagine a person that might not have speech, and they might not have very much motor, maybe no motor at all, but they are still their brain cognition is all there. We're going to have brain computer interfaces that allow those people accessibility. And when that happens, mark my words, it will happen. If that is unethical, AI, you've got a person that can't speak and can't move. Is it? Respecting their choice is crucial. And so, Joe spoke it at the White House on Global Accessibility Awareness Day, and said, We must monitor this. We must audit it. And he suggested it has to be open source so it can be audited. As I was discussing it, I agree that would be one way to do it, but the companies spending the money on this stuff probably are going to want to open source it and give it away for free. So I was trying to come at another angle, and what it dawned on me was has to be as regulated as pharmaceuticals, so I understand how serious and how scary this can be, and when it's my turn to need that brain Computer Interface to still communicate with someone I love, when 50 years ago, I couldn't have I want to make sure that it lets me say what I wanted to say, not what ChatGPT wanted me to say. 

Sam Evans 36:15

Well, if I could wave my magic wand like Glenda and grant you that wish, then I think maybe collectively, that's all of our work to do. Maybe that's our charge is to make sure that AI is ethical and respectful, and disability informed.

Glenda Sims 36:31

Very true. The AI, as you said, it needs human review, it must be vetted, and who better to vet than people with disabilities? So, they need to be involved in the process from the beginning, while I have a minor disability visual the phrase nothing for us without us, people with disabilities must be involved so that we build it and it truly works, not what someone thinks would work for a person with disabilities.

Sam Evans 37:06

I often associate if I if there was a mythical spirit animal that I would associate with you, and I often see it present, and it's not your paper cut out of a large squirrel. It's a unicorn. Do you have your paper cut out of the squirrel?

Glenda Sims 37:21

He's in the garage. But I do have this unicorn.

Sam Evans 37:25

Glenda has a little neon unicorn light up that she's just brought forward and put on. But as I look at people that I've met in my only 10 plus years of accessibility directed work, but I see all the aspects of what we think of as a unicorn, that you bring this passion and service, ingenuity and inspiration, and you inspire so many others to follow, follow your path, and to keep that momentum going, and to not focus on the boulder up the hill so much. You've helped me with that a number of times too. Is that you know our greater reach is more important, so all of us, I think we all owe. If you haven't yet, I'm sure that somebody in the accessibility world has benefited from the knowledge and wisdom of Miss Glenda Sims. But what are you most excited about is that it’s coming forward, so you're forever going to have a place in my world as you know, one of my core foundational guides o how to do this the right way and for the right reasons. But what's on your horizon vista about upcoming things, or you've shared so much wisdom with us already, but what is like one or two other key takeaways that you want people who are listening or reading along with us to know? 

Glenda Sims 38:34

I think I've already shared my biggest belief we are going to solve digital accessibility, and I don't want to quit working in this field, even if you youngsters are contributing as much or more. I don't want to stop being part of a solution until I see it across the finish line to honor Dr John Slayton, to honor Jim Thatcher, to honor so many of the people that started this. Instead, what I want to do is leave you with this thought. We're at this inflection point, and it's hard work, but it's deeply, deeply meaningful, and as we're on this journey, it's collaborative, it's together. So don't feel like you're alone. Reach out for others if you're not reaching your full potential in your current way of working with digital accessibility, find a mentor. Find a mentor, because we need not just the 10% of your energy that you're able to dedicate. We need your force. We need your full force. And at the same time, Isay that as we work together to solve these problems that we once thought was impossible, but are no longer going to be impossible, remember, it's not resting on your shoulders alone. If you try and solve it all by yourself, and you don't have a team of people to work with, then what happens when you go on vacation, or you retire? No, you have to build a sustainable thing that lasts far beyond just like John helped create me and I helped create others. Help create others.

Sam Evans 40:45

So much of what you share is, and I always get this with all of our conversations, Glenda, is that be the light to lead and like the way moving forward as that as the podcast is titled, United in Accessibility. That's kind of our tagline here at IAAP. And so, I thank you number one, for being so open, being a great colleague, a friend, a mentor, for all that you contribute and everything that you continue to share out. It's really impressive. And so I was so very pleased to be able to offer you the award at M-Enabling. And even better, to have it been a surprise when you work in teams, or you get to on a regular basis. For you know, for more than a decade work with people that regularly give of themselves. They really are outstanding leaders and so Glenda Sims, thank you so much for making time. It's always a treat for me to have a little bit of time with you. Thank you for joining us on the podcast, and for everyone that's listening or reading along. Thank you for joining us for the United in Accessibility podcast with IAAP, the International Association of Accessibility Professionals, we look forward to supporting you in your work, in your journey as an accessibility champion and/or professional. Please do reach out and let us know how we can support you. Thank you so much.

Glenda Sims 41:59

Thanks, Sam.

Speaker 42:02

Do you want to continue the discussion from this podcast? Members can access the strategic leader in accessibility community of practice in our member connections platform. If you are not a member, please check our website for all IAAP membership benefits, or email us at info@accessibilityassociation.org, and we will be happy to talk about membership and help get you engaged.