E56: Neurodiversity in Cybersecurity & Accessibility: Expert Insights with Nathan Chung

In this episode of the United in Accessibility podcast, IAAP’s Sam Evans talks with Nathan Chung, a cybersecurity expert and leading neurodiversity advocate, about how autism, ADHD, and lived experience shape his mission for more inclusive workplaces. They explore why neurodiverse talent is critical to cybersecurity innovation and how accessibility must be embedded from design to policy.

Transcript

Speaker 00:02

Welcome to the IAAP United in Accessibility podcast. In this episode, we're joined by Nathan Chung, a leading voice in neurodiversity, cybersecurity and disability inclusion. Nathan is a multi-award winning advocate, keynote speaker and founder of initiatives that elevate neurodivergent and LGBTQIA+1 women in tech. Diagnosed later in life with autism, ADHD, alexithymia and complex PTSD Nathan, has transformed personal adversity into a mission to build more accessible and inclusive workplaces. A recognized top 50 global neurodiversity evangelist and host of the NeuroSec podcast, Nathan brings a rare blend of technical expertise and lived experience to his advocacy. Today, we explore how neurodiversity can strengthen cybersecurity, what true inclusion looks like, and why reshaping workplace culture matters for us all on the United in Accessibility podcast,

Sam Evans 01:12

Hello. This is Sam Evans, the IAAP Certification Director. Thank you for joining us today on the United in Accessibility podcast. Today, I'm so lucky to have a chance to have a first discussion with Nathan Chung, who I've been following online with his expertise in AI and security and accessibility and how all of those fold together in the best of all possible worlds. Nathan, I'm so pleased that you have a chance to join us today. Would you take a moment just to introduce yourself in your own words, so that people can listen to and or read a little bit more about you and your background?

Nathan Chung 01:51

Absolutely and this pleasure to be here on your podcast today. My name is Nathan Chung. I'm a cybersecurity engineer, and I am openly neurodivergent with autism and ADHD, and the newest one is alexithymia. So, I was naturally drawn to computers, and then later cybersecurity. And I got one of my first jobs working for the police department in Hawaii, and later I became Head of IT, the Governor in Hawaii. One of my first jobs in cybersecurity was working at Gymboree, the kid’s retailer. And today I advocate for neurodiversity, and because of the high rates of unemployment and lack of support, I do what I can to try to help with that, because consider that around 30% of adults with ADHD are unemployed, and up to 85% of adults with autism are unemployed. So, more needs to be done to fight for them. 

Sam Evans 02:41

And Nathan, growing up, when did you become aware of your neurodivergence or how did that become aware of your world and your lived experience was different than other people who are not ADHD or neurodivergent folks? What kind of challenges did you face and how did that help shape who you are today? 

Nathan Chung 03:03

To start, my childhood was not easy. I grew up at a time when Autism and ADHD were not understood and no support was available for me. I was never Mr. Popular in school. I was different. I didn't pay attention in school. I was constantly dreaming. I had problems listening and paying attention and doing what the teacher told me to do. So of course, my grades were not that great. In school I was also bullied, I felt lost, angry, misunderstood. On top of that, I'm also Asian. That added an additional layer to it, because in Asian culture, we are supposed to, like make the family look good. We are not supposed to make family look bad, and we are to the programed to supposed to do well. We had to do well in school, get straight A's, become doctors and lawyers. Look at that. That was a lot of pressure. Looking back, my career did not move as fast as people who do not have disabilities, but I still accomplish a lot like my career in IT and cybersecurity span more than 25 years, and I have 22 certifications and two master's degrees. So overall, I was not an excellent student. I didn't have straight A’s, or I was never a valedictorian, but overall, I think I did okay for myself. I was late diagnosed. I did not know I had these conditions roughly like five or six years ago.

Sam Evans 04:32

If you don't yet know Nathan Chung and you haven't met Nathan or engaged on social media, it is very impressive. And Wow. What an amazing person who's bringing all these things together for us and for the benefit of many. Nathan, I, too, didn't learn about my disability on math disability with Dyscalculia until I was in grad school, so I think we're discovering a lot of folks are late in life aware and or diagnosed. But how do you see neurodiversity intersecting with the skills or traits or really positive attributes that are required in cybersecurity? Not to make generalizations, but you work in cybersecurity, and your part of this group of people with disabilities. So, can you talk a little bit about the overlap there? 

Nathan Chung 05:23

Absolutely no different people will find that working in cybersecurity can be a natural fit, because they bring a lot of skills that are in demand. For example, pattern recognition, creativity, hyper focus and strong analytical skills. These skills are a strong competitive advantage, and that can allow a neurodiverse person to stand out in the crowd and to show that they are excellent for cyber security. However, the link between neuro diversity and cyber security and tech in general is a stereotype, as a lot of people in the neuro diversity community will tell you. Yes, a lot of us can excel and attack the cyber fields. But it is not the only field, it should not be a stereotype. It should be one path of many. For example, some people can be really good at photography or become filmmakers or become very hands-on creative. So, it is an individual choice for each person, because everyone is different. In my view, neurodiversity and working cybersecurity, not only is it a natural fit, but it is also fast becoming a national security issue, because if you look what's going on in the world, just so many conflicts in Ukraine and the Middle East, it's a hostile world with all these wars going on. I mean, you look at history, there are amazing people just like Alan Turing, who was probably neurodiverse. People like him were instrumental in cracking the enigma code and helped allies win World War 2 faster. So, history is just full of amazing people like those who literally shaped the world we live in today and had an impact throughout the history of mankind. Another important figure who just, yeah, I just saw this in the social media news in the past couple days, where Bill Gates, the founder, head of Microsoft, he in his book that just came out, he talked about how he was, he's probably autistic, and there's a lot of trait to show it overall, there's just history, just full of a lot of people who are no divergent and who were probably no diverse, who had impact on the world today. 

Sam Evans 07:34

Nathan, I was at a conference a few weeks back, and colleague of mine, who just finished their PhD in some scientific arena, who's autistic and ADHD, relate to somebody else in the in our meeting, that whatever it is that makes your brain excited, as a person who's ADHD or autistic, whatever that is, the ability for your brain to fully engage beyond I think she's estimated we use 30% of our brain. She said, I like to think that autistic and ADHD people who are able to engage 60 or 70% of their brain when they're working excites them. Perhaps, is that a trait that you're I think it's cybersecurity, if you're interested and find that, but in any field. So she is a strong advocate for people being able to harness that interest that then falls into patterns and research. And so I think it's really interesting, if my brain went that fast, I think, I think I might be a little overwhelmed at all the processing, but I but I think that was a really good illustration for her to share that it's not just about looking at numbers like not just accounting, not just code, and to your point in any area or interest, so whatever it is that spikes your interest, I'm sure gets a lot of research and interest and expertise so, but I don't want to I hear what you're saying. And I think there's we've seen some generalizations or stereotypes made that people with this type of, you know, brain patterns, you know, only work in code or you know, technical or research. So, I think it interesting as we go forward to see more people who are neurodiverse, neurodivergent people share what shapes their passions, their interest and how they find their way into their work. So, let's talk about your writing. So, you're a published writer and a contributor, and we'll kind of talk over two places. So, you have your one of your publications was in women in security magazine, and then you've got some writings about security professional content. But can you talk a little bit about your Women in Security magazine writings, and then we'll talk about your 97 things?

Nathan Chung 09:49

Yep, absolutely. So, on LinkedIn, I have my NeuroSec newsletter, and I cover topics at the intersection of neurodiversity, accessibility and cybersecurity. Link allows me to speak my mind, so does a matter of speaking, because there are a lot of problems affecting neurodivergent people today. For example, my article for Women Security Magazine, I talked about the hard stuff, like how neurodiversity and cybersecurity are similar because both are male dominant. Consider that the percentage of women in tech and cybersecurity is roughly 25 to 30%. Women diagnosed with autism, similar is roughly around 25% as well. That's bad, because to think that even in today's day and age, when a woman, or pretty much anyone who's not a man, goes to the doctor saying, I might have autism or ADHD, they get turned away. They get told, well, you're not a man, so you can't possibly have autism, ADHD. That leads to a lot of women and people who are not women, people who are trans or LGBTQIA+, not get diagnoses, and long don't get support. And sadly, some take their own lives. This is a problem, and it's wrong that the medical community today still operates this way. I write a lot because I hear back from some of my readers that my writings give them hope, that not only can they work in cybersecurity, but it is okay to be neurodivergent and be different, it gives them hope. And when I hear those stories from people who appreciate my writing, it makes me happy and gives me hope. 

Sam Evans 11:27

So, you've your title of one of your publications was 97 things every security professional should know. Mentioned maybe one or two things that are related to maybe one or two things for neurodiversity and one or two things about accessibility, just as a teaser, and we can make sure that everyone can have a chance to come back and read that.

Nathan Chung 11:48

Cybersecurity is such a varied field. Just think it's similar to the rainbow. A lot of people, they just think cybersecurity is just offense, defense. However, there's just so many, many, many jobs in cybersecurity, a person can be a teacher. They can work in privacy. They can be a forensics analyst. It's not just offense defense. The other piece to it is anyone can work in cybersecurity, because, again, everyone's different. So, everyone has a different path to how the how they will get there, like you look at my career path, it wasn't a straight line, as lot of people would normally do it, but it's like a lot of ups and downs, ups and downs.

Sam Evans 12:29

I think my career path might look like a jumbled knot of yarn. So, nothing was a direct line for where I came either Nathan, so that's okay. It gets us where we are. So, we're on a podcast now, but you have your NeuroSec podcast. Can you just talk, just mention a little bit about how you'd like to describe NeuroSec podcast, what inspired you to start it? And then the last bit on that is, what Episode do you think would be a must listen? And we'll find that make sure we link out to that as well. 

Nathan Chung 13:01

Yeah, absolutely. So, I started NeuroSec back in 2020, during the COVID 19 pandemic, and I use it in a way to reach out to people and to amplify their voices, because there are a lot of neurodiverse people out there. And despite all the challenges I face, a lot of people are sometimes not as outgoing as I am. Sometimes they're more shy and more introverted. So, one of the best episodes was when I interviewed Tia Hopkins. She is Chief Cyber Resilience Officer and field CTO at East Entire. That person is just amazing. They overcame a lot of challenges to get to where they are, and today, they not only are an exec, but they are also a professor, and they're teaching and they're working to educate and help others, and particularly helping to pass the baton to the next generation, like for someone to struggle through poverty and overcome all the challenges, and to get to where they are is just an amazing story. And again, her name is their name is Tia Hopkins.

Sam Evans 14:07

So, I read about you first with your podcast during COVID, and a colleague of mine who is non binary and neurodivergent, was like, you got to listen. Just come listen to this, put this on your list. So that's when I first started listening to you. So, it's been a few years, but in 2022 we'll go backwards, and we'll talk about some award-winning recognition that you received. I'll go back to 2022 first with your DEI Champion Award. Can you mention just a few bits about what led to your projects or your work for that award, and then we'll move on to another in just a moment. 

Nathan Chung 14:50

Sure thing. So high level, I'm a five-time award winner. I think a lot of my words come from my advocacy, in helping women in the tech and cyber field, because as I think, as you know, it's hard. A lot of women who enter the field, they don't get the support, and they be discrimination, bullying. And I just felt the need to try to do I can help out. So, I would volunteer at events. I would help others, and also through my podcast, I would try to raise their voices. One of my biggest wins was when I founded the weakest neurodiversity affiliate. That group was focused on helping to advocate and support neurodivergent women in tech and cybersecurity. And to my knowledge, it's the only group in the world that's focused in that demographic. High level neurodivergent women, big reason why is neurodivergent women often don't get the support they get dismissed. They get bullied even more; they have problems advancing. Again. The stereotype is in cybersecurity and neurodiversity is that it's men's only group, men's only field. It's important for people to see women who are not only neuro diverse, but who are also mothers, and who are also thriving in a tech, cyber field. And some of the guests we had speaking at the recent NeuroSec podcast represent all of them, and some, some other events I hosted, put together members from the LGBTQIA+ committee and who are also neuro diverse. Some people in the crowd told me later they were grateful to see such amazing people like share their stories. And some people in the audience told me later on they were literally crying because they thought they were alone. Those stories from other amazing people show that, no, they're not alone. Yes, you can thrive in cybersecurity and tech, and you can kick you know what, and thrive and essentially have it all. Because even some woman, they told me that, oh, when they enter tech or cyber, they need to give up be a family and being a mother, and that's not true. Given the right conditions, the right choices, they can very much have it all. They can have a career, they can have the family, to have a partner. I think that's an important message for people to hear, that you can have it all if you let's call if you make the right choices.

Speaker 17:20

the IAAP Certified Professional and Accessibility Core Competencies. CPACC credential is IAAP foundational certification representing broad cross disciplinary, conceptual knowledge about thoughtful design, policy and management to be inclusive of all. The CPACC is the ideal credential for those who manage and support accessibility, but who may not personally design, implement or evaluate the technical details of accessible solutions. Check out the exam content outline on our website.

Sam Evans 17:57

So Nathan, one of the one of the places that again over the years that your work has intersected with, mine is and women in cybersecurity, WICYS is the acronym and the neuro diversity affiliate that you work with, I do a lot of work trying to help meeting and event planners understand Accessibility, not just from a physical standpoint, but also from neurodiversity and other disabilities. And was working with the Google in EU project, and came across the conference accessibility checklist that the women in cybersecurity, neurodiversity affiliate group had created, community driven, which was super and I've been sharing that checklist out and Nathan, if that's I have a copy of it, but I'm I'd love to see if we have a web based URL we could share with folks. It's one of the strongest community led event guides on accessibility that is easy to read for folks that do event planning that may not yet know enough about neuro diversity or accessibility, so that certainly is a big win. And again, that jumbled knot of mine, you know, I circle through a lot of areas, so your name has popped up in several circles former over the years. More recently, you were named to the 2024 D30 disability impact list. How did they choose you for that award? And then we're going to move into talking about policy but let's make sure we have some time to talk about your D30 disability impact list.

Nathan Chung 19:36

Sure thing. So the D30 helps to recognize people who are making an impact in the world, I believe they chose me because of my work at the WICYS neuro diverse affiliate, and also the like you mentioned the conference accessibility checklist, because the sad realization is that conference, although tech and cyber conferences, are not accessible for people like me and the big jaw drop and I share, I shared with you. I did a poll on LinkedIn to ask. Neurodivergent people and people with disabilities, when they go to a conference, do they feel that their needs are met? The results were jaw dropping. Of course, most of them the roughly 85% roughly, said no, that. The vast majority of the people who said no their needs are not met were women, by and large, very clear, very clear, clear cut from the poll that women, no divergent women, people with disabilities, women with disabilities feel like they're shut out in the conferences because it's not accessible. That is sad. Hence why the need for the conference accessibility checklist. Because conferences, in general, need to do a better job with becoming more accessible people with disabilities. So that, and I'm proud to share that in 2023 the Neuro r diverse affiliate we won an award in 2023 at the WICYS national conference, being the top we just affiliate in the world. I'm very proud of that. 

Sam Evans 20:58

Can we switch gear for a minute to talk about policy. I'd love for you to share a little bit about your experience in Texas, the US State of Texas, with Texas partners in policy making, and how that equipped you to help advance accessibility and disability rights on the policy front. Absolutely, despite all the work I was doing, like with the nonprofits and the podcast and writing, I felt the need to do more. That's why, when a friend recommended a Texas policymaker class here in Texas, I jumped on that. Because I feel the need to address policy changes in our government, which is ironically timely given the current circumstances we face ourselves in the US right now. So, the class is an eye opener. For example, it provided a quick history lesson on the history of disability legislation such as the ADA, and also a quick review of how laws are passed. It helped me to prepare for meetings. So, when I meet legislators and politicians who pass laws, it also helps me to prepare testimony so I can provide my input on bills. This is critical even now, because, as we saw from last week with the announcers in the White House, they're taking a hammer to DEI and accessibility, which I feel very sad about. So ironically, the policy class is very timely as we live in these very dark times today.

Sam Evans 22:33

Looking over our points for our discussion today. Nathan, I thought, I'm sure this class, and I'm reminded to the process in which laws are created and passed is where we can focus our influence in today, so they are a bit harder to take away than simply a signature on a piece of paper. So, we have a lot of work to do, not just in the US, but for those who are listening or reading later in the year. We're recording this in January of 2025. But 2025 so you had some really good things happen. You just recently have come back from CES, and you were able to give a presentation at CES. So, I want to ask you first to talk a little bit about your presentation, about AI tools and accessibility and assistive technology. 

Sam Evans 23:25

What are your thoughts from your background in cybersecurity and understanding AI is driving so much innovation. AI is here; it's going to help us with so much innovation and make things scalable. But what's your concerns or your thoughts about cybersecurity and AI and any risk in that arena? 

Nathan Chung 23:25

It was my first time going to CES, because ever since I played around the computer so many years ago, I always wanted to go CES, so I was honored to be invited to do a talk about Neuro Diversity and accessibility on a panel. So, I mentioned that we are entering a golden age where AI is powering accessibility and assistive technology. Consider that an estimated 70 million adults in the US have disabilities, and they will greatly benefit from all these technologies. CES was also amazing because of so many new products. To be honest, I was pretty much overwhelmed by all the new products. But I saw a lot of talks and new products around assistive technology and accessibility. For example, I saw one demo where a person could use their phone to input commands and essentially log into the computer all through their phone. That's amazing. And I also attended many CES sessions that covered different forms of accessibility, the example that address color blindness and hearing loss people who have hearing problems. That is amazing. This shows that we are literally going through a golden age with so many new assistive technology and accessibility technology, and these technologies are leading the way into the future, and that's it's going to help many, many, many people with disabilities. 

Nathan Chung 24:57

Yep, that's a good question. Near the end of my talk in CES, my big jaw drop was when I mentioned that despite all these gains made by these successful accessibility tool in assistive technology, the big issue I see, which a lot of people are slowly starting to see, is the cybersecurity risk. Because despite all these positive things that these technologies bring, what about cybersecurity? Because what we see historically is when people come out with these tools, they sometimes don't think about cybersecurity like things like, can a bad guy get access to your data. My big fear that I expressed at a conference is, despite all these tools technologies, the cybersecurity risks, if not addressed, could very much lead to the prohibition of these tools. All it'll take is it's a big blow up and, like, say, a big breach where a big tool, like one of the diverse AI tools, is, it is. It'll just take a big, famous breach to cause some people to free, to have a block like, Wait, AI is great, but it's a cybersecurity risk. We got to stop using them. That is something I personally am afraid of. Now, to counter that, my big ask for people who are developing these tools is to consider cybersecurity from A to Z. I mean more so at the beginning. Like, example, when you're building a new AI solution, they start thinking about security immediately. Like, for example, pen test, pen test, have security professionals do a pen test of your solution. Can the bad guys get in? Also build cybersecurity infrastructure, make sure your tools are constantly monitoring and upgrading and patching to make sure that that vulnerabilities are addressed. We do that, then we can essentially have our cake and eat it too, where AI powered accessibility and assisted technology will drive us into the future, help people and keep us all secure. Like yes, we can have it all.

Sam Evans 27:18

All these great ideas that are coming forward, if there were a breach, it would, in essence, take away tools that can make people have the capacity to live independently, where they work, live, play or in their communities. And so, cybersecurity has, if I am listening correctly, has the opportunity to really help us advance accessibility and grow the tools that are available for people to engage independently and perhaps with less complex things, for products and services. If somebody can use their phone with, you know, gestures or commands to control their computer, it's a huge link, and might overcome some barriers with physical accessibility and cognitive considerations too. So, for all of your cybersecurity folks in accessibility and digital accessibility, we talk about shifting left all the way back to the beginning, for those of us on languages that go left or right, all the way back to the beginning of your planning and consideration. So, I think we can add Nathan's shift left on cybersecurity to your design and build too. So, Nathan, you mentioned that you grew up in Hawaii, yes, and then I know that Hawaii in itself has a lot of cultural varieties not just in culture and language, but also in food. So, I I've been told that you're also a food enthusiast. So, can you tell us number one, like, What's your favorite food? That would be great fun. But, but what kind of accessibility challenges have you noticed in the culinary world, or in the food world that you also have a little advocacy fun with.

Nathan Chung 29:05

Yep, absolutely. So yeah, I grew up in Hawaii. There are a lot of Asians in Hawaii. So of course, naturally, I love Asian food and noodles and dim sum and whatnot. However, when going to restaurants, I'm a world class traveler, so I've been over to rural So, but when I go to restaurant, some restaurants can be a challenge. It can be very noisy. A lot of people just crowds and just think of the declaring of metal utensil, it can lead to sensory overload. So, I personally prefer quiet places, but I can't force that on restaurants. 

Sam Evans 29:42

Well, little-known secrets are the places that probably would be less noisy. I'm not sure that restaurant design has gotten to sound proofing or sound absorbing things yet, but I am with you. But what's your favorite food? If you have your favorite savory and what's your favorite sweet? 

Nathan Chung 30:01

Yeah, definitely noodles and sweet. Sometimes. Some quick history. I grew up in Hawaii, my grandma ran a chain of called crack seed stores. This thing, it's a candy store with free candy and soda. So, I did a lot of sweets, like gummy bears growing up, which probably why I have so many holes in my teeth.

Sam Evans 30:22

That's good fun. So, as we, as we kind of wrap things up for our quick chat today, is there a message you'd like to share with our listeners and our readers as they learn about cybersecurity and accessibility? 

Nathan Chung 30:38

Think of it this way. Accessibility is a fundamental right for people with disabilities, and despite all the news we saw last week, we should never let no person, no organization or any government take it away from us.

Sam Evans 30:53

And if you could see me, I'm doing ASL applause hands can't because it's an audio podcast. So, this is me cheering in the background. What resources, one or two would you most like to share? We definitely want to list your podcast. But is there a resource around cybersecurity and accessibility that or other that you'd like to share? Yep, of course, the conference accessibility checklist, I could share that with you after.

Nathan Chung 31:21

That'll be awesome. So, we're going to cybersecurity folks have conferences too, but everybody has events, and the checklist for neurodiversity and conference planning accessibility is top notch. So, I'm excited about that. And do you have an upcoming project or a conference where you might be speaking? So, if you have a project, that's great. But where in the world might somebody find Nathan to engage within the next couple of months?

Nathan Chung 31:47

I don't think I have any conference songs planned yet, but I'm very much open to talk at events. I have a lot of things I'm cooking up this year. First of all, I'm writing a book with my friend Kat Cantillo. She is she led the way up for that accessibility checklist. And so, with her, I'm writing a book that will be an anthology of stories from the community, covering Women, LGBTQIA+ how to build new, inclusive environments, and most importantly, of course, accessibility. Second, I will be starting a new podcast covering issues around disability employment. And third, I'm considering creating a new group, so I have a lot of cooking this year.

Sam Evans 32:10

Certainly busy. Nathan, I'm so excited to get a chance to meet you virtually. We're sharing screens while we're recording our podcast. Today, I've been following you, reading you and finding your insights in my circles, not just in accessibility circles. And it's always a pleasure to see accessibility advocates, disability advocates and neurodivergent advocates come across industries and across professions. So, to all of you, if you haven’t yet gotten a chance to get to know Nathan, please do follow Nathan online social, on podcast, and I'll look forward to your anthology. I have a whole shelf full of anthologies from disabled folks that are one of my favorites to give people for firsthand stories, so we'll be looking forward to that Nathan. Any last thoughts before we wrap up our conversation today?

Nathan Chung 33:21

That's pretty much it. And thank you, Sam, for having me at the show and thank you IAAP, I really appreciate it. 

Sam Evans 33:28

And so, for everyone who's listening or reading along with this. This is the IAAP, the International Association of Accessibility Professionals podcast, United in Accessibility. Thank you so much for joining us today, and we'll look forward to talking and chatting with you soon. Thanks so much. Nathan.

Nathan Chung 33:44

Thank you.

Speaker 33:46

The International Association of Accessibility Professionals membership consists of individuals and organizations representing various industries, including the private sector, government, nonprofits and educational institutions. Membership benefits include products and services that support global systemic change around the digital and built environment. United in Accessibility, join IAAP and become a part of the global accessibility movement.