E61: Chris Ruden on Disability Inclusion, Trust, and Belonging

This episode of the United in Accessibility podcast explores what inclusion looks like beyond awareness, through honest conversation about trust, disability disclosure, and belonging. Chris Ruden shares lived experience and practical insight on how people navigate inclusion in everyday professional and personal contexts.

Transcript

00:00:02 Speaker 1

Welcome to the IAAP United in Accessibility podcast. In this episode, we're joined by Chris Ruden, a transformational keynote speaker, change management expert, and disability inclusion advocate. Born with a congenital limb difference and later diagnosed with Type 1 diabetes, Chris spent years hiding his disability before redefining how he shows up and how organizations can rethink inclusion. As an amputee, world record-holding powerlifter, and NBC's Titan Games competitor, he draws on lived experience to help teams navigate change and build stronger, more inclusive cultures. Chris's work focuses on the role of trust and psychological safety in leadership and organizational resilience. Through his perspective as an athlete, author, and speaker, he brings a practical lens to disability inclusion that connects culture, performance, and long-term impact. In this conversation, we talk about inclusion beyond awareness, and the role trust and belonging play in how people experience inclusion every day. 

00:01:09 Christopher Michael Lee

Chris, welcome. 

00:01:10 Chris Ruden

Thank you for having me. 

00:01:11 Christopher Michael Lee

Give us a little bit about your background and your journey around accessibility. 

00:01:15 Chris Ruden

I was born with a limb difference. I have two fingers on my left hand and a shorter left arm. I also have Type 1 diabetes, so it's more of the invisible illness, but I didn't get that until I was nineteen years old. I'm a professional speaker now, world record-holding powerlifter. I was on a TV show with The Rock, and that's all the cool stuff that my resume says online. But in reality, I hid my disability for seventeen years, you know, in a glove, in my pocket. Even when I started my speaking career, I didn't stop hiding my hand until about seven years ago. So, my entire life I felt broken or limited, and then internal ableism kicked in and all of this stuff. So, I basically had to battle, uh, my own labels, my own struggles and restrictions, while trying to come out in the world, and I kind of made that process more public, and I grew on social media because of it, sharing my story authentically. So now it's my job to be the person I never really had growing up and help people see their world without limits. 

00:02:20 Christopher Michael Lee

So I'm gonna get a little personal here, and you have been very personal, but my brother actually has a similar condition, um, that you do with his hand. He has a smaller hand and no muscle on his chest and a smaller arm, and I had many conversations with him growing up, and, um, he was, he was a master at hiding that hand. Exactly what you said, the glove, you know, the behind him, all the pictures, anything you're saying. One of the conversations I had with him relatively recently was about bullying in school, particularly from the girls', um, standpoint, because of his hand. And he became kind of this, this clown because of that. He had this mask on that he was gonna be something a little bit different. Do you mind sharing what it was like growing up, um, with a disability that wasn't really hidden? It was there, and it was noticed at times. How that made you feel, how you were treated? 

00:03:14 Chris Ruden

I grew up in a rough neighborhood, and, like, I stayed at the same school the majority of my life until middle school. My parents did the best they could with the little money they had to try and protect me as best they could. It wasn't until I went to really, like, different schools that I started to see that I was different, that I wasn't growing up with the same people that I was around the whole time. And every day was literally someone pointing out the fact that I was different, the fact that I looked different, from calling me a monster on the playground to constantly making jokes, or any time they could bring me down, they would, about a difference, something I couldn't control that wasn't my fault, but I still felt like that was, like, my burden to bear, you know? And I'll, I'll never forget the specific story that I tell across stages all across the world. In middle school, there was this girl named Crystal, who I'd worked the courage up as a thirteen-year-old boy to talk to, and, uh, I approached her, and all my friends, or what I thought were my friends, started laughing. And I was like: "Stop, you're gonna mess this up," you know? And I turned back around, and Crystal was making fun of my left hand with the stapler, calling me Claw Boy, and she humiliated me in front of the entire class. And I pretended like it didn't hurt, but it killed me because from that moment, I shoved my hand in my pocket, and I left my hand in my pocket for years, to the point where I would have to raise my hand to go to the bathroom if I had my backpack on, just so I could take my hand out of my pocket. Otherwise, the backpack would dangle there all day. I would keep long sleeves on if I was hot, you know. We went to the beach as a field trip, and I kept my hand in my pocket while I'm at the beach. I literally made an entire identity around hiding and pretending like I didn't have an issue. I somehow built this fake, confident persona of, like, leadership, but I hid in plain sight, so no one dared question why I was hiding, and that was my life until I was about twenty-seven. 

00:05:18 Christopher Michael Lee

That's powerful, and I really appreciate you sharing that. It's... I don't think, uh, you know, people understand, you know, the psyche of the place you become when you're constantly hiding something, right? 

00:05:29 Chris Ruden 

It's exhausting. 

00:05:30 Christopher Michael Lee

Exhausting, and the end of the day, you're like: Man, I just want to crash because I'm tired of trying to be somebody else, you know, or just hiding in general. I really appreciate you sharing that. It’s something I resonate, you know, obviously very personally with my family, so, um- 

00:05:47 Chris Ruden

I relate it to, you know, if you're driving your car and you need an alignment, your tires are constantly pulling one way, and it's wearing that tire away. You can still drive, but it's wearing away constantly, constantly, constantly. And at a certain point, you're, you're bound to, like, have a blowout.... You know, that constant hiding, where most people are just worried from going to point A to point B, I'm worried about, okay, there's a door there, which means if someone comes out of that door, I need to rotate this way so they don't see my arm. I was always looking in my backpack for something with my left hand so that people didn't see it. I would map out how I needed to turn, move, and where I needed to sit anytime I was doing anything. 

00:06:28 Chris Ruden

That level of hyper vigilance is burnout in the making. It's exhausting, and so many people go through that. So, whenever you see people moving throughout their life, you don't know what kind of is going through their mind, and that exhaustion doesn't show up in the form of, "Wow, I'm so tired." It's just numbness, you know? It's removal and disassociation from life. It's so hard to find beauty or appreciation in things when you're just exhausted from existing. 

00:06:58 Christopher Michael Lee

You know, I think of it as, I call it, I call it the fast track, which is, like, the frustration, anxiety, stress, and tension by the end of the day 'cause you are on all the time. So, I'm glad you got out. Twenty-seven, you're in a much better place, it sounds like. You talked a little bit about how, you know, trust is the foundation of, of real change. Can you dive into that a little bit? What do you mean, trust? 

00:07:21 Chris Ruden

I think trust and safety kind of go hand in hand. I didn't trust anyone. I didn't trust anyone to, to love me or like me. I didn't trust anyone that they wouldn't judge me. I didn't trust anyone that they had my back. If anything, I trusted that I couldn't give them the truth. I trusted that they were gonna be an enemy, or they were gonna be someone who was gonna talk down to me. I believed in my head, uh, all of these things that kinda society positions us to believe, you know, because of ableism and all these other philosophies that people make about people who are different, but most importantly, I didn't trust myself. I had zero trust that I had the ability to do something different. I didn't trust in my ability to succeed or my potential. I didn't trust in my ability to stop hiding my hand. If anything, like, all of my internalized ableism or beliefs about myself, uh, there's no way I could trust myself, let alone anyone else, because I had zero safety. Because what I believed was I was broken, I had no potential, I was useless and helpless and all of these other things, and I looked for moments that supported that broken belief of myself. You know, I took a situation where I had no control over. I, I can't control how I was born or the conditions I've developed, but I took that, and I made it into a story that made everything worse. And I often joke on stage, you know, if you get a flat tire, don't set the car on fire, but that's really what I did. There's no fixing disability. Nothing's wrong, but not only could I, I not change my situation, I made it much worse by the story I told myself. So trust really is the single step in building relationships with people, yes, but relationships with yourself to make sure you trust yourself to try, to try and, and not live this life where you're telling yourself you're broken or you're less than just because you don't fit a very shrunken mold of what society has said normal is, and I just don't agree with what normal is according to society. 

00:09:31 Christopher Michael Lee

You mentioned earlier about y- growing up and, you know, not with a lot of resources. Do you have siblings, and if you do, how did they work with you or not? Uh, and how did your parents handle this? 

00:09:43 Chris Ruden

I lied to my parents every day. They both worked so much and so hard, multiple jobs. My mom did sixteen-hour shifts. She was a nurse, and she also worked at the jail as a nurse, so, like, she was doing sixteen-hour shifts, whatever she could do, you know, to provide for our family, and I'm sitting here being made fun of the way I look. I felt guilty that my mom had a kid that looked like me. I felt guilty that I existed in a way that was an inconvenience to my mom, who was working so hard just to provide, so I hid that. They never knew. They would ask me how my day was, and I lied every day, and I said it was great. I always lied because I, I was embarrassed, you know? My brother was eight years apart from me, and then my brother was eight years apart from my sister, so that's sixteen years. I didn't really get interactions with my sister or my brother. Now my brother is my biggest supporter, you know, years later, but when I was growing up, it was, it was just me, and I had the neighborhood kids, and they were definitely going down the wrong path. So was I, and that's all I had, so I, I did with it what I could, but I always had this competitiveness, and maybe that's based in a little bit of pettiness because everyone said, "Oh, you have a disability, so you can't accomplish X." And my thought process was, "Watch me." You know? It was stubbornness, but that stubbornness did benefit me in a way. 

00:11:11 Christopher Michael Lee

Well, it says a lot that you, for your mom, that was working two different jobs or three different jobs at times, I mean, that you were not gonna burden her any more than you could. But that psyche, what it does to you, you know, shifts the way that you think about yourself, as you've talked about already. And I'm just curious, you, you-- when you hit, you know, you know, twenty-seven, you broke through that, you know, you broke through that wall. Was it a pivotal point? Was it something that happened? What made that change? 

00:11:42 Chris Ruden

For so long, I was just convinced-- Like, you know gravity exists. I was convinced that I was always gonna hide my hand, as if it was a fact. I just accepted that I was always gonna hide my hand, you know? I had been with a partner for four years, and they had never seen my hand. We lived together. I hid my hand that much. And when I say I hid my hand, like, I truly hid my hand from everyone, including myself.... I had started my speaking career. In my brain, I was like, "I wanna help people from an authentic level where I'm not perfect, and you see that I'm still hiding my disability, but I still have value to offer." So, I was like, "Instead of waiting to be perfect, why don't you watch me do it right in front of you? Why don't you watch me grow as I'm helping you grow?" And that was my philosophy, where I was like, "I am not perfect, but I can speak on the things I can speak on." I told myself if I ever got a prosthetic arm, I would stop hiding my hand, knowing in the United States, it is very difficult to get approved for a prosthetic arm, a prosthetic hand. Uh, and it took a very long time, and I just figured it would never happen. Well, it happened. I got approved for one, and I was like, "Okay, now I have to do it. I have to g- I have to be a person of my word." But I was, like, still holding back. There was one event I spoke at a Disney resort, for Type One diabetes. I had spent all day with this little girl who was just diagnosed with diabetes, and I remember we're walking down this long corridor. She was like a little puppy following me around. It was so awesome. I bought her a hat, and it was, like, amazing. She, like, loved me, and it was so cool. She's eleven years old, you know? She just has no clue what, what is happening with this new diagnosis with diabetes. We're walking down this long corridor, and she's on my left side, and I wore a glove, but I, I never wanted people to be on my left side. For some reason, I allowed her to be on my left side. She grabs my glove, my left hand, and just starts swinging it like a little kid does, and I just froze. Like, I remember my whole body tightened up. She looks at me, and she's like, "It's okay. You don't have to hide around me." It-- That moment was... Like, eight hundred plus people were there, and they were gonna hear me speak, but she's the only person who like, saw me in that moment, you know? And that was a, a huge moment for me to be like, "Why am I not good enough for myself if I'm more than good enough for her?" That, that kind of kickstarted things, to start thinking differently and being like, "Uh, is what I feel a fact, or is it just a very strong feeling?" So, I started to challenge those facts that I told myself about myself, and I started to see that most of the stuff I was saying was not factually true. It was just felt very strongly. And I started to kind of rethink the labels I was putting on myself, which gave me a chance to stop hiding and a chance to be more than my disability, to kinda just be a person instead of this condition that I labeled broken for so long, you know? 

00:14:46 Christopher Michael Lee

I mean, do you think you will ever stop hiding? I mean, you said you broke through at twenty-seven, but, I mean, it's so conditioned, right? It's so being aware of your surroundings, which is a positive thing, actually, right? You know what's going on around you more than most people do, right? You are looking ahead. You're noticing things, 'cause you're not gonna be caught, right? Can you break that, or have you broken that? 

00:15:11 Chris Ruden

So, I will say I have definitely broken it, but there are always moments that I catch myself. I still, anytime I pass someone, I'm looking at reflections because I expect them to turn around and look at me, you know? I find myself, like, balancing my phone on my left hand. Partially, that, that helps me, but also partially, that's how I used to hide my left hand. I don't feel that I hide anymore, but I do still have those automatic responses that I have to actively catch. One of the worst things you know, I, I get paid to speak at so many different events, and a lot of people like to ask me questions like, "When did you overcome your disability?" I don't believe it's something to overcome. I don't think there is a finish line to mental health. I don't think there's a finish line to inclusion. I don't think there's a finish line in general. It's not a marathon. It's a, how do you learn to live with something through telling a different story about the situation? Because my hand is, factually speaking, I'm missing three fingers. That's the whole fact. The story is, is it good or bad? That's the story, and I had to start taking control of the narrative because before, the narrative was killing me. The narrative was just sucking life from me, not just, like, the life I was living, but the life that I could live, the potential I could have as a person, as a human being, uh, because of this story I was telling. So, I at least started changing the narrative. I couldn't change the situation, but I could change the story I told about it, and that really helped me a lot. 

00:16:45 Christopher Michael Lee

Well, and I also think that I would imagine just public speaking, um, you know, the more you did it, the more you're talking, the more you're listening to other folks, you know, hearing other stories, and, and, I mean, it resonates after a while. I mean, it-- you, you're sharing, and you're sharing. That doesn't make it any easier when you walk outside that stadium or the auditorium, whatever it may be. There's a level of feeling empowered. People are paying me to hear my story. People want to hear my story for these reasons, and my story is important. That resonates. It has to put you in a place that maybe takes a little bit away from that, that kid that was hurt, you know, growing up. 

00:17:27 Chris Ruden

I always say I vow to be the person I never had, you know, growing up, 'cause I never saw someone with a disability in a position of power or influence or what I wanted to accomplish in my life. I wanted to become that for other people. I started my speaking career by telling my story, just telling my story, and I met a mentor who was like: "I love your story, but that's not your value." He told me, "Your story is a vessel for your message. Don't just tell people what happened to you. Extract the message, so you can give that to them, so that they can use that for their life." So, it goes from, "Wow, that was a nice story," to, "Oh, this is something I can use in my daily life to get better."... when I made that shift from just telling my story of what happened to me, to using my story as a vessel to help you, that's when my speaker business changed, that's when my mindset changed, and that's where I feel like I bring the most amount of value, not just a good story, to organizations, but to individuals. You know, companies are made up of people, and people, we all have our struggles. So, if I can give you something that you can use instead of something that's just nice to hear, that made me go from, "I'm proud of what I went through," to, "I'm proud of what I'm bringing to the table now." 

00:18:51 Speaker 1

The IAAP Accessible Document Specialist, ADS, credential is intended for accessibility professionals who create and remediate accessible electronic documents and their related policies. The ADS credential represents an ability to express an intermediate level of experience designing, evaluating, and remediating accessible documents. The ADS credential is beneficial for people in or aspiring to be a user experience designer or tester, web content manager and administrators, project, program, and ICT managers, and more. Check out the IAAP ADS certification webpage to learn more. 

00:19:39 Christopher Michael Lee

Yeah, I like the analogy of a vessel. I mean, it's so true, and the time it took to get that, that vessel off, you know what I mean? The time that you learned to speak your story, and then it became a, a vessel. Um, I appreciate you sharing that. So, you mentioned that, you know, you also live with diabetes. Can you talk a little bit how they layer on each other? You know, what have you learned by having a hidden and not a hidden disability? 

00:20:05 Chris Ruden

It's interesting to have both because the obvious one is my arm, you know? The less obvious one is diabetes, but arguably, diabetes is much harder to deal with than the visible. But most people wouldn't think that because people tend to doubt what they can't see, and they tend to doubt what they don't understand. If I have my prosthetic arm on, which is black and carbon fiber, and it looks super cool, I'm a superhero. If I don't have my prosthetic arm on, people kind of avoid me 'cause they're not sure how to deal with limb differences. Same thing if I'm showing my diabetes equipment off, like my continuous glucose monitor that's always on my arm. People are like: "Oh, what's that? Is that technology? Is it..." They, they make up some sort of thing that it is. And when I say diabetes, most people have a preconceived notion about what that means. I have Type 1 diabetes, which is an autoimmune disease, which means I require insulin to stay alive on a daily basis. If I do not have my medication, I can die within a day. Not dramatically, like, actually, the amount of liquid required to keep me alive is, uh, pretty insane, and it's something most bodies do normally. So, diabetes is a minute-by-minute condition, where I have to constantly check my blood sugars, I have to constantly know what I'm eating. That fueled what I did in college. I got my degree in exercise science, so understanding health and science helped me help other people, but it also helped me help myself. So I had to lead by example. I had to take care of this condition, which helped me to lead and help other people take care of their bodies and their conditions. So, um, is it good? Is it bad? Uh, I can't answer that. What I can say is there are a lot of complexities to invisible illness, invisible disability. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not real, so we can't lead with doubt. And that goes into trust and understanding people and listening to people and valuing what they say, instead of leading with your own doubt because you don't understand. 

00:22:10 Christopher Michael Lee

Was there a time that you were trying to hide the diabetes? 

00:22:14 Chris Ruden

Surprisingly, no. I was still hiding my hand at 19, so when I was diagnosed with diabetes, I took diabetes as a chance to lead through that. If anything, it was a distraction for people. I was like: "Hey, look, I have diabetes. I'm an advocate. I'm so, you know, out there and supportive. Don't look at my left hand but look at my diabetes." Diabetes got me into speaking, but I was still hiding my disability. So, diabetes led me down the fitness path, down the powerlifting path, where I ended up becoming, you know, like, pro powerlifter and then going into bodybuilding. I was very outgoing with diabetes, I think because I was just more comfortable showing that off, but I still wasn't comfortable with my physical disability. So, the dichotomy of being publicly out there in magazines, you know, I've been in People magazine and all these, like, major publications, leading with diabetes, but still kinda shying away from, from the disability side of things. So, there's no right answer. There's no... Like, looking back, people ask me: "Would you have changed anything?" Like, maybe, but I did the best I could with the information I had at the moment, you know? 

00:23:24 Christopher Michael Lee

So that kind of ties into my next question. You, you competed in the Titan Games, right? So, um, how was that? What was that experience? How did it feel? 

00:23:34 Chris Ruden

Yeah, so I had built my, my, uh, fitness career. You know, I was the strongest Type 1 diabetic and physically disabled person at the time. I had broken a record, six hundred and seventy-five-pound deadlift with one hand, and I had broken a few state records, which was really cool. That led to social media awareness on Instagram, and all these accounts were posting me, and I eventually made a video about not hiding my hand, and it went viral on YouTube, seven million views. Like, everything happened so fast, you know, in getting more comfortable with myself. Fast-forward a little bit, I got a call from Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson. I thought it was a prank call, and, uh-... over 100,000 people applied to be on that TV show. They picked me. I didn't apply. They offered me to do this thing, and I was like: "Yeah, whatever, that's cool." I flew out, and I tried out for it with 200-plus people, and I was like: "Oh, that was great, but there's no way," you know? I ended up getting picked, and I was one of the main people on all the billboards, and it was an incredible experience. Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson was one of those guys I looked up to my entire life. I had his action figures and all that, and it was an incredible experience. I got to share my message that went all over the world, and I had hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of messages about not hiding parts of them, or their disability, or their differences. And the platform that that gave me was incredible to help people around accessibility, inclusion, and just awareness of differences are part of humanity. They're not something to be avoided or negated. 

00:25:10 Christopher Michael Lee

What an amazing experience to have all that. It really is. That's- that's great. You talked a little bit about just the, the, you know, the pro power building, you know, and I'm just thinking, you know, I, I visualize a lot, so I'm thinking, okay, so what does that entail, uh, in regards to accommodations or assistive technology? Just curious, do you mind sharing? Like, because that's not... That's heavy-duty stuff that you're doing. So, I mean, what's, what's involved? How did you modify things? 

00:25:37 Chris Ruden

Yeah. So, I didn't have a prosthetic arm at that point. At first, I was just using my residual limb, which is four inches shorter, so I developed a lot of back problems because I'm a one-handed guy living in a two-handed world. The gyms and the workouts are not designed for someone who doesn't have two hands. I was luckily going to school to figure out biomechanics and understand what to do, but there was no path set for me. There was no person before me that had created a path for someone like me, so I had to make a lot of mistakes. I got injured a lot, and I found ways to use my residual limb, but there was a limiting point, right? I'd lift 135 pounds, and that was great. I knew I was strong enough to go heavier, but I couldn't because of my arm, my hand, and that was really frustrating because I'm like: "There has to be a way to do something." I found a lifting hook that people use, which wraps around your wrist, and then most people just grab over top of it. I was like: "I could make that work maybe, but I can't grab over top of it. I would just have to let it hang and hook." I asked the company, and I reached out to them. I was like: "Why not?" I said, "Hey, is there any way you could take this hook and just lengthen the Velcro part four inches to make up for the deficit in my left hand?" And they were like, "Yeah, no problem." I was like: "How much would that cost?" They're like: "Oh, same, same price. We'll just do it for free. Just buy the hook," and it was 50 bucks. And I was like: "Oh, well, let's see if that works." And it worked. I was able to do pull-ups, I was able to do rows, and I started deadlifting. One hundred and thirty-five pounds turned into 225 pounds, then 315, then 405, and 495. I did my first competition, and I ended up winning my first powerlifting competition, and that was my first-ever competition. But I noticed at 500 pounds, it started slipping around my wrist, and I was like: "Well, if I'm gonna get stronger, I need to do something." Personally, I thought going above the elbow was cheating. In my own mind, I was very competitive. I was like: "I don't wanna cheat. I still wanna compete against able-bodied competitors," which I hate that term. I wanted to compete against people who don't have a physical disability. So, I found a way to create another wrap over top of it to create more friction. I understood that more friction would help grip it, so it wouldn't rip off. That kept me going to 600 pounds. Then it started to slip at 600 pounds, and I was like: "What else could I do? More friction." I used Skin-Tac spray on my skin, which was like a glue almost, and then I wrapped two wraps around it, and I was able to get all the way up to 675 pounds, but blood would pool out of my residual limb. Like, it was wild. Wild. But I had to make my own way because, uh, there was nothing to hold that kind of weight because no one at that point had done anything like that. So, I had to struggle and find my way and build my own thing, and a lot of things failed, and I ended up getting to the point where I found this hook system that just worked for me. 

00:28:39 Christopher Michael Lee

Do you share that story or part of that, um, during your presentations? 

00:28:44 Chris Ruden

Oh, absolutely. So, I've spoken at so many, uh, upper limb symposiums for prosthetic and orthotic clinics, but also that journey of creating access in the gym world, which is not normally the most accessible world, where machines are designed. I look for specific machines when I go to gyms. I know certain machines, like Hammer Strength machines, are isolated, so I can use one, uh, separately than another, which means when I lock out, even though my left arm is four inches shorter, I'm locking out at the same position where my back is not getting hurt. All of these little adjustments, we're not taught about that in school. Even in my degree, we never talked about that special population. We never talked about limb differences or training, uh, unilaterally to balance a physique, let alone spinal hygiene, so I had to learn a lot that wasn't publicly out there. 

00:29:38 Christopher Michael Lee

Do you coach at all? Not for speaking, 'cause I know that's coming up. I wanna ask you about that, but just from an athletic standpoint, kids with disabilities similar to you or, or not, have you done any kind of coaching? 

00:29:49 Chris Ruden

So before speaking, I had a very successful online training business. I did some in person as well. I still have some clients, but it's more special populations or people who want specific results. I don't promote it as much because my true passion is speaking, but I still get pulled into some camps. There's a camp called NubAbility, and it's all people with similar limb differences to me, and they have every sport. They coach it, from archery to fishing to weightlifting and every other sport you could imagine, all with adjustments. They're very adaptable, so I still do that. My dream is to get to a nonprofit space where I can build some sort of camp or coaching program just for a nonprofit. Uh, that is the, the long-term end goal, for sure.

00:30:37 Christopher Michael Lee

That's great, 'cause I mean, just, you know,I swam growing up. It made all the difference for me. You know, team sports or, or individual sports or team sports, I mean, it just really makes a big difference, I think. And, oh, whether it's music or art, it could be anything, any vehicle, right? But I hope that you reach that dream, 'cause I know there's a lot of kids out there probably that would, it would benefit, definitely. So, coaching another direction, coaching, um, in regards to, uh, public speaking, and I really want you to drill down in the area of storytelling. I mean, what have you learned in, in coaching? 'Cause it's one thing being a public speaker yourself. I mean, you sit in front of the mirror, you do your thing, you, you hone in, the timing, you, you pivot when you need to pivot. You're reading the audience, right? Storytelling is so powerful. What have you learned, or what, what do you share with the speakers that you work with, or potential speakers? 

00:31:28 Chris Ruden

So I, uh, with a business partner of mine, Dustin Giannelli, we created Paid2Present, which is a speaker coaching business specifically for inclusion advocates to get paid to speak. 'Cause we're all about pay equity, and speaking industry is a billion-dollar-a-year industry. They're going to pay speakers. Why not people in our community? So, we created this whole program because we saw what it took to become paid speakers who charge, you know, five, ten, fifteen thousand dollars to speak for these corporations. They have these kinds of budgets for speaking, and we're like: Why isn't our community getting that? Oftentimes, our community, the community with disability, they get asked to speak for free or pick their brain or, you know, they... And we're like, "No, we have to create pay equity in this space," so we decided to create this business. I love the storytelling component, so I pull from people like Kurt Vonnegut, who wrote Slaughterhouse-Five and a lot of other, like, timeless classics. He talks about the shapes of stories, and you can combine two thousand plus works of art and stories into six major shapes. I'm not gonna go through all of them, but one of them is, uh, the man in the hole shape, where if you plotted a graph over time, in good and bad fortune, it starts out good, it goes bad, and then it ends up being good again. So, it's this U shape, and if you learn to plot points on that, that shape, you can tell any story. I can say I started the day off looking forward to this podcast, and then my dog was like, "I gotta go out right now," and that's where I'm like, "Oh, my God, the podcast is about to start. I'm not gonna make it." I'm at this point where I'm like, "Oh, no," and then my dog goes to the bathroom real fast. I take him back up here. I make it in time for the podcast, and the podcast goes amazing. Now I'm at that top. That's just a shape that I can tell any story. So, when you understand the art and science of storytelling, and you can use something like a graph or plotted points, you can tell any story more effectively by understanding what makes a great story: a start, a conflict, and a resolution. Old normal, an explosion, a new normal. There are so many short concepts that you can learn that will instantly make you a better storyteller and instantly make you more valuable to the person you're trying to relay a message to. Communication, storytelling, all in one, and it's one of the best skills you can ever learn in your life. 

00:33:56 Christopher Michael Lee

So, in your book, The Art of Changing Course, do you get into that type of content, storytelling, speaking, or was it completely different? 

00:34:06 Chris Ruden

So, my book is all about changing management, and that is more aligned with my actual speaker business, creating change in people's life. In the future, the plan is to write a book specifically on speaking and storytelling. That's my last book that I'll be writing, which is a communication piece. So, I mainly talk about three things: uh, communication, change, and inclusion. So that is the goal to get to, uh, but you're definitely ahead of me right there. 

00:34:35 Christopher Michael Lee

Yeah, see, I was just, yeah, I was just probing you a little bit. 

00:34:37 Chris Ruden

You know, you know. You see it. You see it.

00:34:39 Christopher Michael Lee

I see it. 

00:34:40 Chris Ruden

That's validation for me, so I love that. 

00:34:43 Christopher Michael Lee

Well, you, you're gonna get there, no doubt. Um, so, so looking ahead, what changes do you hope, um, organizations make, um, when, you know, understanding disability, leadership, and human differences? It's a big question. 

00:34:57 Chris Ruden

So many ways to go about it. I don't have all the answers. I don't think anyone does, but I can say this: the direction I'm going is I love leaders who prioritize curiosity over certainty, leaders who say, "We can't do that, we can't afford that," I, I don't want those mindsets anymore. I want the leaders who say, like: How could we do that? How might we do this? What could we do to create better inclusion? What could we do to improve psychological safety? Who are we missing from this conversation? I don't want to lead with certainty anymore, and I find that the best leaders are leading more curiously than certain. I don't need you to have all the right answers. I need you to be willing to see what you're missing. The person who is willing to see what they're missing is going to create a better culture of inclusion, belonging, psychological safety. All of that is important, especially to our community, but it's important to their goals, too. We can't forget, we have to speak their language, too, and their language is they're in business for profitability, to move the business needle forward. But if we create psychological safety, if we create a place of belonging and inclusion that includes people with disabilities, which is part of society and a huge piece of most people's businesses that they're missing, we're helping them with their goals of profitability and increased collaboration, but we're helping our community be a part of something that society for so long has kind of kept us in the dark. That's a win-win, and I'm trying to find leaders who are looking for win-win situations. 

00:36:33 Christopher Michael Lee

Yeah, I like that, the curiosity aspect of that. It's such a powerful word. It has so much meaning, and to see that being part of the title of your new book. 

00:36:41 Chris Ruden

My new brand hook is all about how might we, and it's-... It's leading with questions, not answers. You know, it- I find that growing up in school, you're judged by the quality of your answers. The tests, you're all about answering and getting the right answer. But as adults, I truly believe we're judged more by the quality of our questions to understand the world around us and how we can do a little bit better. So, I want to change the world in that way, to go from thinking you have to be right to being willing to ask better questions. That's all I ask, is leaders, I just hope that they're willing to ask better questions. 

00:37:24 Christopher Michael Lee

Listen more closely. 

00:37:26 Chris Ruden

That's it. 

00:37:27 Christopher Michael Lee

And having you out there and others, like Dustin, out there sharing stories, being the vehicle, um, is, is writing the books is so, so important. And the fact that, that you have started, you know, building on that with other folks, uh, just hats off to you. It's, it's important. It's important stuff. 

00:37:46 Chris Ruden

Same to you. You are doing this platform, this we are all doing the work together, and it, it's crazy how our circles kind of cross. But as I'm out there speaking, and Dustin's out there speaking, we're coaching, you're building this as well. So, we are all getting the message out, and the more we can repeat that we are capable, and able, and more than, uh, reasonable to take away these labels that have been hurting us for so long, wrongfully so, we're all doing our part. So, I appreciate you as well. 

00:38:16 Christopher Michael Lee

Well, thank you. It is, it is about talking about it and putting it in front of people and, um, getting the people, you know, behind the scenes, really pushing things. So, uh, this has been such a great interview. We're at the very end of it, but I wanted to ask you, I mean, what's, what's next for you? I mean, I, I have my own ideas, obviously, throwing them out., But, but what, what, what's plan-- any projects that you've got coming up that you wanna share or plans? 

00:38:39 Chris Ruden

Well, apparently, what's next for me is hiring you as my business manager, 'cause that sounds like- you already, you already have a lot of plans that I've, I've laid out, which is impressive. But Paid2Present is going extremely well. We've already helped forty-four speakers. We're gonna bring in another thirty coming in January and do that about four times a year. I don't need much more, and I think, I think that's important, too, to understand it's not all about hustling and more and more and more. You have to find your quality of life, and whatever that looks like, hold on to that. What's next for me is I love speaking. I'm gonna continue to speak. I'll write another book or two, which I love writing. Uh, I'll continue to coach speakers, which is great, and then the nonprofit. But I'm happy. Like, I'm good, and I want-- I just wanna keep doing what I'm doing. So as l- if I could keep doing exactly what I'm doing right now, I'll have the best possible life. 

00:39:32 Christopher Michael Lee

I really appreciate that. I mean, it's nice to be at that, that place in your life, at your age, which is not that old, to feel comfortable where you're at, um, in your shoes, um, with everything that has transpired throughout your life. It says a lot, and, um, uh, Chris, I really appreciate you being here today, sharing your story. Thank you. 

00:39:51 Chris Ruden

Thank you for having me, honestly. And if anyone ever needs just a, a shoulder to talk to, you know, like, uh, feel free to reach out. Uh, I'm always available, whether it's LinkedIn or social media or email, one conversation away, you know? Just know that if you're in my community, you have a person to talk to. 

00:40:09 Christopher Michael Lee

Well, thank you. 

00:40:11 Speaker 2 

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