E65: Designing for Real People: Accessibility with Chandra Harrison

Dr. Chandra Harrison shares how organizations can move beyond compliance by designing with disabled people’s real access needs at the center. She discusses disability advocacy, AI bias, assistive technology, and the work needed to create more inclusive digital experiences. 

Transcript

00:00 [Speaker]

[upbeat music] Welcome to the IAAP United in Accessibility podcast. Today we are joined by Dr. Chandra Harrison, a digital accessibility specialist based in New Zealand. Chandra holds a PhD in human computer interaction and brings more than two decades of experience helping organizations create digital products that are more accessible, usable, and inclusive. She is the founder and managing director of Access Advisors, where she works with teams to understand the impact of inaccessible design and make practical improvements. Her work brings together accessibility, user research, interface design, and lived experience. She has taught accessibility in the United Kingdom and New Zealand, published and presented internationally, and contributes to accessibility, research ethics, and assistive technology initiatives across New Zealand. Chandra also serves as G3ict's country advisor for New Zealand through the Smart Cities for All country advisory network, supporting collaboration across government, civil society, and the private sector to advance inclusive cities, accessibility, universal design, and the rights of persons with disabilities. In this episode, we discuss the accessibility landscape in New Zealand, the importance of designing with real user needs in mind, and how organizations can turn accessibility commitments into practical action. 

00:01:46 [Mohammed Loutfy]

[upbeat music] Hello, and welcome everyone to United in Accessibility podcast. My name is Mohammed Loutfy. I'm G3ict director of advocacy, and today I have the pleasure to welcome and interview Dr. Chandra Harrison. Dr. Harrison is G3ict country advisor in New Zealand. Welcome, Chandra. Good to have you. 

00:01:52 [Dr. Chandra Harrison]

Thanks so much, Mohammed. Um, much appreciated, and it's lovely to be here with you. 

00:01:55 [Mohammed Loutfy]

Chandra, how would you introduce yourself? 

00:02:47 [Dr. Chandra Harrison]

That's a lovely question. Thank you, Mohammed. So, I am Chandra. Um, I'm the managing director of Access Advisors. We're a digital accessibility consultancy based in Aotearoa, New Zealand, as you mentioned. For me, who am I? I'm a person who's very passionate about digital accessibility and has been for a really long time. Um, I always track my career on the basis of the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines in that I got into this business about the same time as WCAG number one was released. I'm also somebody who is very active in advocacy as well as consultancy. I'm someone, I suppose, who has a big personality, likes to talk about accessibility, so your job is going to be difficult to keep me quiet. 

00:03:13 [Mohammed Loutfy]

[laughs] So, you know, you, uh, lead access advisory company, and you've been working on research, design, and on strategy related to accessibility. Where do you see the role you do? Is it education? Is it training? Is it services? So, what's the core job you see yourself doing? 

00:04:50 [Dr. Chandra Harrison]

That's a lovely question. Um, thanks, Mohammed. One of the missions that Access Advisors has is, that our core mission is to help improve digital accessibility, um, for everyone in New Zealand. The reason that I've kind of, um, taken on that mission is because I think digital accessibility in New Zealand is so much in its infancy. The level of maturity here is, is really, really low, and I kinda think that my background in, um, research and design and user experience kinda helps me in translating the user needs, the, the, the access needs of people, but then helping move that through into organization action. We do a lot of the consultancy. We do a lot of education. But I kinda think one of the biggest things is helping raise awareness of what accessibility is, but also, even more importantly, what are the fundamental access needs that people have? And there are two types of disabled people, those who are disabled now and those who will be disabled later. So, I really think that I'm translating between people and systems and decision-makers and helping organizations to understand real human impact, not just how to follow the rules. So, I like to sort of think of myself as kind of like the voice of the disabled person in the, in the technology space, in the digital accessibility space here in New Zealand. 

00:05:19 [Mohammed Loutfy]

Wonderful. And I know that you have global experience. You've worked in other countries and in the UK and around the world. At some point, you've decided to return to New Zealand. What make this decision, and what was the purpose of returning to New Zealand? Did you want to do something that's more impactful in the domain of accessibility or disability rights? What-- So if you can tell us more about this journey. 

00:08:53 [Dr. Chandra Harrison]

Part of the reason for returning to New Zealand was because of, um, you know, bringing my, my children back to, um, you know, to their roots, to New Zealand. But I think for me, that work overseas, I'm really proud of the, uh, of what I achieved overseas. I worked for the likes of the BBC, uh, right back when digital accessibility was very much based in web, before we had, um, you know, smartphones and before we had, you know, touchscreens. So, I think I was really lucky to be involved in digital accessibility in that kind of environment. But I also saw that the political changes were starting to happen. Um, I know that when there was the big, uh, volcano, um, Eyjafjallajökull, in Iceland, and all of the airspace was shut down, and I felt very isolated from my family in New Zealand. And then, of course, there was, um, political changes like Brexit, and I was seeing that things in the UK weren't as green and wonderful as I had always imagined. And so, I started looking back to New Zealand to sort of see what we could do if we came home. Coming back to New Zealand was definitely the right thing for the family, but professionally, it was very hard. I think, as I've already mentioned, New Zealand's level of accessibility understanding is very immature, and I've been home now for 11 years. So, when I got back in 2014, the word accessibility didn't even register for most organizations. We had very, very loose frameworks from the government, and we had, you know, a little organization within the Blind Foundation that was providing advice to organizations to help them improve their websites. But there was nothing really major happening here. And so, when I started looking around to see what work I wanted to do when we came home, I saw that there was a real potential here to sort of choose impact over scale. So, I went from, um, you know, working in London and, um, you know, elsewhere in the EU in large corporate organizations that had global reach, um, to coming home to New Zealand and working for the Blind Foundation, um, providing advice around websites. It has been incredibly rewarding being home. Um, and it's been really, really wonderful to have those connections still with the international market, I suppose. So, Mohammed, it's like, you know, when we get together for our G3ict country advisor meetings, it's fantastic to know that there are communities all across the world that are doing similar work, and it's just nice to know that we have that connection. So being home has definitely been a heart thing, um, in choosing that impact over scale, and also being able to build something really values led. So, Access Advisors is a small consultancy, but what I've done is, that I've made a conscious effort to only employ people who have some form of lived experience, um, of either disability or a chronic illness. And I think I wouldn't have been able to do that quite as easily, um, in the UK. So, I think New Zealand has offered a lot of opportunities that I wouldn't have got elsewhere. 

00:09:46 [Mohammed Loutfy]

That's amazing. And I know from many meetings we've had so far through our country advisory, uh, meetings, the great work that you're doing. I always enjoy what you share with us, and I really admire the work that you're doing, and I totally agree. It's very important that we serve our community locally, especially in our own countries, but without disconnecting from what's happening internationally. So that's an excellent approach. Chandra, you talk about your experience as a person living with ADHD and chronic health conditions. How does this ex-- particular experience make you think about accessibility? How do you view accessibility, and what is it that you see that others do not? 

00:13:11 [Dr. Chandra Harrison]

Another amazingly good question there, Mohammed. My ADHD, um, as a, as an older, uh, woman, I think I was late diagnosed as ADHD, and it's very interesting to see that I actually became involved in the accessibility and disability space long before, um, I had a diagnosis of ADHD. I think probably one of the biggest things that my lived experience has shaped is that I truly believe that it's so important to make things better. So, if I give you an example and, and part of the reason why I got involved in this. When I was about six years old, um, it may surprise you, um, I was a precocious little child. Um, and I remember my dad, like, he was my hero, my, my superhero. He could do anything. He could fix anything. He could build anything. And I remember one day he asked my mum how to spell a word, and I was thinking to myself, "How come Dad doesn't know how to spell that word? I know how to spell that word." And then I waited until Dad had finished, and then I asked my mum, "Mum, am I smarter than Dad?" And she said, "Well, no, Dad's brain just works differently." And what we know now is, is that Dad had dyslexia. And I think that at that point I realized that people are different. We're all different. We all do different things in different ways. And I think having not known that I had ADHD, but knowing that I was different in a lot of ways, has made me want to fix everything. I also think about my chronic illnesses. Um, I know, Mohammed, you've probably heard this story way too many times already, but, um, as somebody who's ADHD and who has brittle bones, um, I often fall over, and I don't just, you know, bruise. I break, um, quite badly. And I think one of the-- about five years ago, I lost, uh, um, I broke my arm again, and I was unable to type, um, using, um, touch typing. And I think it was at that point that I realized that while I've been talking about accessibility and disability for many, many years, I'd never really had any sense of being disabled. But at that point when I was trying to use a keyboard and I couldn't because it hurt and because it just wouldn't work the way I wanted, I suddenly realized that the technology that I was trying to use was disabling. So, I think from my perspective, the, the shaping of my work is, it's probably the reason I got into it. It's probably the reason that I want to solve, um, all of the problems. But it's only recently that I've realized the full impact. So once I received my diagnosis, when I've been injured, um, any of those temporary kind of, um, situations where you can't do the thing that you want to do because there's barriers in the way, I think maybe my lived experience has just allowed me to see those barriers a little bit more clearly sometimes than other people do. 

00:13:25 [Mohammed Loutfy]

I cannot talk enough about how I myself experienced accessibility and how it changed my life. Having that said, we still see people who always have their own assumptions. 

 00:13:25 [Dr. Chandra Harrison]

Mm-hmm. 

00:13:59 [Mohammed Loutfy]

And you always talk about going beyond assumptions and pushing people to focus more on real needs. So, uh, and you know, it happens, um, I know, I'm sure from your experience, you've, you've, you came across such cases when you go to a company and they assume that they are accessible, they assume that they comply with accessibility standards, while they're not. So how do you shift their thinking beyond that and making them real truly care about real people's needs? 

00:15:36 [Dr. Chandra Harrison]

Yeah. I think this is one of the hardest things to do. A lot of organizations do believe that they're doing the right thing and they're doing enough. What I always try to do is not to tell them, but to show them. Having a research background, I think, has really helped me with that. And one of the things that I think is the most powerful is to take a developer who thinks they know everything about accessibility and introduce them to somebody who has complex access needs, who's using a variety of different assistive technology, and getting them to watch that person use the product that that developer has made. Actually watching how their faces change is, is mind-blowing, right? So even if the developer has followed all of the correct guidelines, even if they've tested and implemented, the chances are that they have never seen someone with complex needs use their product with assistive technology. So wherever possible, I like to be able to show them what the difference is between compliance with the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines and show them what it is to watch someone who is non-verbal use a communication device and speech input to navigate a web app. That just is mind-blowing. 

00:16:05 [Mohammed Loutfy]

Speaking of that, I mean, it's really hard to push people to step beyond their focus on compliance and make them more see accessibility from real end users' experience or people's needs. This is all happening at a time when technology is developing, is progressing very fast. Lots of changes- 

00:16:05 [Dr. Chandra Harrison]

Mm 

00:16:40,928 [Mohammed Loutfy]

... from day to day that we see happening in the world of technology, like, especially with artificial intelligence nowadays. Everybody is talking about artificial intelligence, and you've worked in, in different sectors, government and finance and health. These shifts, these changes have an impact on all these sectors and others, of course. Where do you see the opportunity of leveraging these changes, particularly in terms of using artificial intelligence, and where do you see that there are still concerns in this regard? 

00:20:03 [Dr. Chandra Harrison]

I was just on a phone call, actually, with people from the Ministry for Disabled People here in New Zealand, and we were talking about digital technology and how the ministry itself has, uh, started to implement artificial intelligence into their daily work. So, I think the big concern here in New Zealand, and I think elsewhere as well, there is so much opportunity for artificial intelligence and, um, other enabling technology to help and support people who have access needs. But there are risks as well, and I think one of the big gaps that I see is that we all say that we know that the data is biased. We know that if we are training, uh, or if we're using artificial intelligence, large language models based on societal norms, that data is biased. The problem is, is, is that we're not talking about how can we change the bias of that data. So, one of the things that I always see is just being aware of a bias doesn't mean that it's gonna go away. If we're using AI tools that are inherently, by design, by the information that is fed into it, by society's opinions, uh, is biased, we have to actively push to move past that and move to a model where we can even up the data models. Uh, we did some work not that long ago, or last year, for one of the larger organizations in New Zealand who were, um, debating the exact same thing. The problem that they had was they had no baseline data on how disabled people use their services. Yes, they had a couple of complaints, um, that had come through, but they had no real baseline data about the variety of different access needs and the variety of assistive technology and the variety of different supports that were needed. So what they did was they invested in real fundamental core research to understand how disabled people use their services. By doing that, they created a really large data set that was positively biased that they can then use to challenge decision-making to try and offset that bias. And I think from my perspective, I'm hearing that disabled people seem to have more visibility. There's more media coverage happening, certainly in New Zealand, than we've ever seen it before. There are more disabled people who are having a voice and being heard. And I think if we can start to change that societal understanding, and if we can proactively balance out the data bias, then I think AI will fundamentally change how we do accessibility, but also how disabled people live their lives. 

00:20:39 [Mohammed Loutfy]

You talked about persons with disabilities and, uh, using their voices to advocate for their rights to digital accessibility. If you can reflect more on that, particularly with regard to how we should or we can leverage people's interest, people's voices, what do you think good strategies could be to enhance their voices, to enhance their role in advocating for digital accessibility in New Zealand and, like, globally? 

00:24:36 [Dr. Chandra Harrison]

I think this is actually a really lovely question because a lot of disabled people don't speak up, but they can speak up, and I think they should be encouraged and empowered to speak up more often. One of the biggest things that we notice is that most people don't really understand disability. They don't understand access needs. They don't understand accessibility. And we can't really expect them to understand the plethora of needs and access issues unless somebody tells them about it. Most organizations want to do the right thing, and most large organizations are probably, and I only say probably, um, aware of their compliance, um, requirements with WCAG and so on. But a lot of those organizations do not have the push, the prioritization of improving accessibility until someone complains or until there is a fuss or until they are threatened in some way. And I think this is the same worldwide. But I have a story. One of my clients contacted me and basically said, "We've had what's called a P1 query." So, it's a priority one query where the organization was being threatened, um, with action, um, by this disabled person. And, um, they handed the problem over to me and sort of said, "Well, you can fix it, right?" And I said, "Well, it's relatively easy for us to help you to fix it, and then you need to, you know, do the, the PR with this." What I later found out was if a disabled person sends an email to the right person with the right tone at the right time explaining the right things, it will become a priority one issue that that organization then has to address in some way. Now, they may not be able to make, you know, full system-wide changes, but at least if they know that there are problems, even if it's a little problem like, hey, that form label doesn't have... you know, that form doesn't have a, um, you know, a text label or something. If they don't know it exists, they don't know it exists. Um, so it's, uh, really important for everyone, uh, to speak up and know that they can, uh, contact an organization and say, "Hey, this isn't okay." There's a perfect example of this. Now, I know that for those of you in the EU, the supermarkets in France. So, a group of the disability organizations got together. They reviewed these websites, these, uh, grocery websites, and identified a variety of issues. They very calmly went to the organizations and said, "Hey, you need to fix these. This isn't okay. Not only is it against the law, but ethically, come on, guys." They waited for six months and then went back to them and said, "You haven't fixed them. Now we're gonna sue." And that's the first kind of movement you kinda see in the EU, where it seems like that power dynamic is shifting, maybe a little bit, but it, it only needs to shift a little bit for it to become more visible and for disabled people to feel a little bit more like, "Actually, I can say, you know, I, I need this website to be accessible." I think it has to happen, and I think it needs to happen as much as possible. So how can we facilitate it? I think as accessibility specialists, um, and certainly G3ict and IAAP, it's just keeping up the work to make it more visible and, and show that it's a basic human right, really.

00:25:01 [Speaker]

If accessibility is part of your job, your skills should be recognized. IAAP professional certifications help you prove real accessibility expertise and gain recognition worldwide. Get certified, build credibility, and lead accessible design with confidence. View the certification overview page on our website to learn more. 

00:26:01 [Mohammed Loutfy]

I totally agree with you that, uh, we need to push organizations of persons with disabilities to consider accessibility as a priority. That has to be done in parallel with offering empowerment opportunities and professional education or educational opportunities for persons with disabilities or on issues of accessibility. When we address issues of compliance, most of the time things happen on individual basis or case-to-case basis. We need to see more efforts for systematizing compliance. And I think when persons with disabilities are given the opportunity to share their experience, to give their feedback about products, or like the example you gave about France, to participate in design, in the design of, of products and services to make to make it more accessible. 

00:26:02 [Dr. Chandra Harrison]

Mm. 

00:26:17 [Mohammed Loutfy]

That's very important, but also this needs knowledge, and this, this needs-- to be honest, it, it needs somehow, it needs courage. It needs ... Somebody has to come and in, in s- like, with some inspiration and- 

00:26:17 [Dr. Chandra Harrison]

Mm 

00:26:22 [Mohammed Loutfy]

... try to, uh, push these people, motivate them, mobilize them. 

00:26:22,324 [Dr. Chandra Harrison]

Mm-hmm. 

00:26:24 [Mohammed Loutfy]

So, mobilization is a key. 

00:26:24,584 [Dr. Chandra Harrison]

Mm. 

00:27:04 [Mohammed Loutfy]

But we talk about all this in the midst of an era where there are lots of concerns about ethics, standards, AI and ethics. That's a big problem nowada- big issue nowadays. Everybody talks about it. Everybody is concerned, and we see that in, in different sectors on, and on different levels. From your experience and from w- what you have been observing so far, what is the gap, uh, that you see between policy and the real needs of people? 

00:31:57 [Dr. Chandra Harrison]

Thank you for that one, Mohammed. I think certainly here in New Zealand, the biggest gap, the biggest problem is the momentum. There isn't enough momentum. We've got very weak enforcement of the guidelines that do exist, and we have no, uh, formal legislation in place to push organizations to, to actually comply. I think the policies that government or that our government, um, has at the moment is that everybody, um, who, uh, provides a public service is supposed to comply with WCAG, uh, 2.2. However, nobody's checking it, and nobody's holding them to account, and there isn't a mechanism for disabled people to complain. And I think that in some ways it's because we haven't provided that platform before. I mentioned our Ministry for Disabled People. It's a very new ministry. It's only been around for, what, four years, three or four years. And one of the big things with the ministry is, that their role is advocacy. And I, I think it's really important that we see more of disabled people in those domains where decisions are being made, and we can push through and find solutions more quickly, that we can work together for it. I think one of the things is that, accessibility is often treated as optional, and I think there is a lack of lived experience and governance in general, and the leadership responsibility for access outcomes isn't particularly robust. So even in France, you know, that's one, one major, um, story that's come out of there. But until we are able to, as you say, be brave and be bold and stand up and be counted and not be knocked down, I think that reality is always gonna be that those accessibility issues will be dealt with when they're good and ready. I always think about curb cuts. You know, the curb cuts where a wheelchair can go down. Um, I think that a lot of people have forgotten how that happened and why that happened and, you know, when that happened. It's, it's, you know, 40, 50 years ago that we, um, saw that kind of social, uh, movement occur to just get curb cuts. Now, I'm not suggesting that we should do that or that, you know, people in wheelchairs should get out of the wheelchair and, and climb the, the stairs of, of, um, you know, social justice, but I think we do need to be braver, and I think we do need to be bolder. One of the things I did notice during COVID, certainly here in New Zealand, and I, I hope elsewhere, was that during COVID, the playing field kind of became a little bit more evened out because, in New Zealand anyway, we were locked down. We weren't allowed to go anywhere, um, so we had to do a lot of our stuff online. Uh, we were suddenly disabled. Everybody was, um, left at home or at home and having to, um, interact with, uh, digital interfaces that weren't usable or accessible. And following COVID, certainly in New Zealand, we had a lot more people, disabled people being, um, listened to too because they'd been asking for, you know, more access for years. I always laugh when I think about the university environment, so tertiary education. For generations or, uh, you know, I, I say generations, for 10 years at least, 20 years probably, um, disabled people have been asking for more online options for tertiary education to help them access content that, that just getting to a classroom was gonna be difficult for. And they were always told, "It's too hard, it's too hard, it's too hard." But within two weeks of COVID breaking out in New Zealand, every s- primary, secondary, and tertiary education facility in the country was suddenly online. Um, and I kind of think partly that, I hope, was, you know, a leveler for some people to sort of realize you can't go to school, you, you have to stay at home. Um, and if we can, we'll offer you a, a way to, to access your education, but, mm, we're not sure if we can. 

00:32:08 [Mohammed Loutfy]

I think that COVID had to happen [laughs] to show people that accessibility benefits everybody. 

00:32:08 [Dr. Chandra Harrison]

Yeah. 

00:32:23 [Mohammed Loutfy]

Um, imagine COVID didn't happen. I think we would still see-- I don't know. I'm trying to look, uh, at it from a, in a, in a positive way. 'Cause with COVID, everybody had to use internet. 

00:32:23,084 [Dr. Chandra Harrison]

Yep. 

00:32:46 [Mohammed Loutfy]

Everybody had to stay home and use the computer, and, uh, you know, the, the functionality of websites and internet back then showed people that there is something that has to be done, more in-- that there should be something to be done to improve internet to make it more efficient, more functional, m- to help people do things- 

00:32:46,764 [Dr. Chandra Harrison]

Mm-hmm 

00:33:01 [Mohammed Loutfy]

... at times of emergency, uh, when they are locked down-- when they are locked up. And, you know, see how the the whole world transformed, uh, after COVID, and now technology became a big thing and- 

00:33:01,844 [Dr. Chandra Harrison]

Mm. 

00:33:45 [Mohammed Loutfy]

But technology would remain not very efficient and effective if it is not made accessible for all, and c- particularly, particularly persons with disabilities. I know from previous conversations we had together, and I can see that we are close to, uh, wrapping up, I would like to see if there is anything you would like to add to what we talked about. And maybe if y- I mean, having that said, and based on what we were talking about, if you wanna share something about the work you are doing and how you are changing the world in New Zealand. 

00:33:45 [Dr. Chandra Harrison]

Mm-hmm. 

00:33:45,544 [Mohammed Loutfy]

[laughs] 

00:34:03 [Dr. Chandra Harrison]

Thank, thank you, Mohammed. I think if there's one thing that I want people to take away from, you know, our conversation today, it's that accessibility, it isn't about technology. It isn't about organizations. It's about people. And it's not just about, you know- 

00:34:03,664 [Mohammed Loutfy]

Mm 

00:34:05,854 [Dr. Chandra Harrison]

... compliance and standards. 

00:34:05,884 [Mohammed Loutfy]

Mm. 

00:35:41 [Dr. Chandra Harrison]

If we observe and we talk to and we work with people who have different opinions from us or different needs from us, different technology than us, we're gonna learn a whole lot more and become a whole lot more innovative. There is a saying in, um, Aotearoa New Zealand, which is, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata." And it is, "It's people, it's people, it's people." And that is the thing that empowers me. And I think one of the, the core things that I believe that I, uh, that I'm adding, I suppose, or that Access Advisors is adding, is is that we work with disabled people. My team are disabled people. We have a, um, a business, um, approach, uh, but we are trying to help organizations to understand and see people and see their needs so that they can actually change the way that they do business, and that it will make it better for everybody. I don't know. I suppose for me also, I think it's just about, I suppose I am pretty loud. Um, I like to talk. I can be brave when I need to be. So yeah, I do hope that just getting, just g- just talking and, and, and making sure that we are, you know, staying connected with everybody and all pushing in the right direction, I think. 

00:35:52 [Mohammed Loutfy]

It's well said, uh, Chandra. I mean, I like your point about that accessibility is not about-- or technology is not about accessibility only. It's about people. 

00:35:52,494 [Dr. Chandra Harrison]

Mm. 

00:36:13 [Mohammed Loutfy]

Because if we don't think and keep in mind what people need, and, uh, so basically looking at the end user's experience and take this into consideration systematically throughout the cycle of design and, and development of- 

00:36:14 [Dr. Chandra Harrison]

Mm 

00:36:26 [Mohammed Loutfy]

... products and services. If we don't do that, uh, technology-- uh, not only technology, but anything, anything would remain ineffective and useless, and- 

00:36:27 [Dr. Chandra Harrison]

Mm 

00:36:39 [Mohammed Loutfy]

... lots of people would be left behind. So for us to, to conclude, I would like to hear from you about something you are working on now. What, what is it that you're working on? 

00:38:44 [Dr. Chandra Harrison]

We are currently working alongside the Health Informatics New Zealand, um, organization to try and work with them to help the health sector to be thinking more about digital accessibility and implementing digital accessibility not only for the public, but also for practitioners. That's one area we're looking at. Um, we're also looking in, uh, into- Uh, disability services. So, we know that in New Zealand we've got a lot of, um, people who are not being mis- not being heard. Uh, people with intellectual disabilities are one of the largest, you know, sort of group of people who are in care facilities, and a lot of these people are not being able to access a lot of information. So we're working with the Disability Support Network, um, to help make sure that we're including the, um, people with intellectual disabilities when we're doing any research. We are also created, um, the Enabling Technology Impact Collective. It's a group of researchers and service providers and vendors who believe that, um, the cost of not providing, um, the right kind of assistive technology to our disabled people is actually costing the country rather than, um, you know, it, it-- the, the balance is, is, is unequal. If we give, if we provide better enabling technology, um, there would be more, uh, employment of people with disabilities. Um, and w- we're trying to figure out some, um, strategies there to help w- the Ministry for Disabled People to look at a, uh, an assistive technology strategy where we're looking at how can spending a little actually provide a lot of benefit to not only to an individual, but also to the government, but also to the country. 

00:39:19 [Mohammed Loutfy]

That's great. Well, we definitely look forward to learning more about the work you're doing, uh, hopefully in another opportunity. Maybe we'll have another time, and I'm sure we, I mean, we will meet again, and we'll learn more about the work you're doing. Thank you very much, Chandra. It's been a re- really great pleasure talking to you, and keep up the, keep up the great work and the great spirit you have. And I'm sure with the work you're, you're doing, the world will be better. Thank you very much. 

00:40:01 [Dr. Chandra Harrison]

Thank you so much, Mohammed. And I would send that back to you and say thank you so much for inviting me to participate, and thanks for all of the, the really hard work that IAAP and G3ict is doing to, you know, keep us, you know, collective and together, um, in sharing that voice and all of the resources. I think that's one thing that, you know, we're really benefiting from down here in New Zealand is, is that we know that if we need something, we can reach out and, um, you know, find someone who has probably already done the, the work. Um, I always think about, you know, walking on the shoulders of giants rather than trying to, you know, start something from scratch is much better. 

00:41:06 [Speaker]

The International Association of Accessibility Professionals offers a range of membership options for individuals and organizations. Whether you are experienced in accessibility or just beginning your journey, IAAP is the only global professional association advancing accessibility across both digital and physical environments. With more than ten thousand members in over one hundred and ten countries, IAAP members gain access to professional education, free monthly webinars, accessibility courses, professional certification discounts, and a global community of practice. Together, we support inclusive design and accessible products, services, and spaces worldwide. United in Accessibility. Join IAAP and be part of the global accessibility profession. [upbeat music]