GP 65: Communicate in Primary Colours: Plain English in Complex Institutions, with Muyiwa Oki of Mace

In this episode, Tom Larsson is joined by Muyiwa Oki, architect, former RIBA president, and now at Mace, to explore what it takes to reform a 200-year-old institution from the inside, why technical grounding matters more than ever for architects, and how the built environment can better serve the communities it shapes.

Muyiwa traces a deliberate route through smaller practices, building technical foundations before moving into large-scale infrastructure delivery at Mace. He shares what drove him to stand for the RIBA presidency, a campaign rooted in the uncompensated overtime that defined his generation's experience of the profession, and how holding that role sharpened his ability to lead, communicate, and advocate under pressure.

The conversation covers the barriers that continue to narrow who enters architecture: the length and cost of training, and the structural gap between education and practice. Muyiwa makes the case for level seven apprenticeships, for building regulations to be embedded in architectural education, and for architects to embrace the principal designer role as a step towards reclaiming responsibility across the full project lifecycle.

Tom and Muyiwa also examine what makes public space genuinely work, the risk of hyper-financialisation in the built environment, and why leaving room for people to inhabit places as they choose may be the most honest measure of whether a place was really designed for them.

Recorded at the Barbican, London.

Transcript

Welcome At The Barbican

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Hello and welcome to the Grow Places Podcast, where we explore the virtuous circle of people, growth, and place. Brought to you by Grow Places and hosted by our founder, Tom Larson.

SPEAKER_02 0:16

Hi. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 0:17

I'm very well, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 0:18

Yeah, great to see you and great to be here at the Barbican.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Thank you for inviting me to the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 0:23

No, no, not at all. It's really a pleasure to have you on and um really fascinated to hear more about what you're up to now and obviously um you know how you got to where you are. So um yeah,

Building A Technical Foundation

SPEAKER_02 0:33

thanks for joining, and why don't you take it from the top?

SPEAKER_01 0:35

Yeah, so um like you said, my name is Moiwa Oki. I'm uh I'm a childhood architect. I have coming up to 10, 15 years of um architectural experience. Um so pretty young for for an architect. Uh and um I I I work for a multinational construction consultancy company called MACE, and we do everything really from your um housing projects and master plans all the way to big infrastructure projects like um HS2, um Hinckley, all that kind of stuff. So it's uh it's a multitude of experiences and and sort of deep deep expertise in in the technical uh delivery of projects. Um before that I have quite um um sort of targeted technical um understanding from an architectural point of view. I cut my teeth with um uh uh uh experience across um you know Grimshaws, Glenn House architects, backer architects, some um architectural practice focusing on um water architecture, architecture that loads. Um and uh so I have a a broad brush. I remember taking it as a point when I started my part one year out, as I'm doing this in a smaller practice just so that I understand details. And I was very purposeful about that so that I can go up to the next stage and next stage and the next stage. And I when I talk to my mentees and such, I always tell them, you know, try and get the technical understanding so that you can dig that to the next level. Um, so that's what I did, and I employ everyone to do that. But

Why Fairness Drove The Campaign

SPEAKER_01 2:34

for my sins, um something that makes me kind of famous in the architecture environment is that um I'm the youngest person of color to hold the role of president of the RIBA, a 200-year-old uh institution. And I did it because I felt, and a court of my friends and colleagues felt, that um the plight of the young architect wasn't um taken into consideration. And I wanted to ensure that the profession um wrestled with and acknowledged the fact that um the asymmetry between employer and employee, which was my generation, um, wasn't taken into account. And you can see that it manifested itself in the imbalance uh in pay when it comes to overtime pay, to be particular. Um overtime was required, but overtime pay wasn't um uh required or compensated. And that's what I wanted to talk about. That was one of my the through line in my campaign for presidency that I won. Um, and I had the seat for two years and um I made uh uh an incremental change, but uh change nonetheless to direct the institution to look at the future.

SPEAKER_02 3:52

Yeah, no, fascinating. And um and so you know I'd love to dive into different components of obviously the the work with the ROBA and and what you're doing now, but just just generally for you, you know, as an individual, like how how do you have a sense of how you've kind of got to where you are, you know, why you've done that? It's not a it's an amazing journey you've gone on, but it's not a typical journey, you know, what driving you to do that?

SPEAKER_01 4:14

Well, I think it's a set the sense of unfairness and inequality. Um as you as you probably know, if you read my Wikipedia. One of the things, the surprising things that uh comes out of the woodworks when you do something out of the ordinary is that some people write Wikipedia pages about you. So I have a Wikipedia, but I don't know who wrote it. Anyway, and the Wikipedia says that um I'm of Nigerian descent. And in Nigeria, um, because I grew up in partially in Nigeria, the sense that inequality is very stark. You see it between if you walk out the door. Um fortunate enough, my parents did well enough to insulate us a little bit from that inequality. Uh so what I live with it. Um and here in the UK, it's not as apparent, but it's there. And it's very in the architecture industry, there is, I don't know if it's changed dramatically, but there is that sense of well, you have to go through the hard guards uh that I did in my previous generation. And I thought that's um in this day and age in the 21st century, that shouldn't be the case. So that's the sense that's what the sense of like well fair of fairness that drives me.

SPEAKER_02 5:35

Yeah. Yeah, no, well, I completely agree. And um I think architecture is it's always if you look back over history, it's it's often been sort of a more elite profession in inverted commas. Yeah. Um and and and there's been a there was, you know, there was a period where, you know, probably 60s period where that wasn't necessarily the case post-war. Um, but definitely I think that that has it increased that um that sense of uh a narrowing of the the pool of people who are involved in it, and and you're probably better placed than most to sort of talk about why you think that is. And um yeah, so it'd be good to get your thoughts. Obviously, from us as a as a developer, as a commissioner of architecture, of architects and other consultancies, you know, we want as as good a representation of uh the places in the neighbourhoods where we're working to come through in our team. So we look to work with local architects or uh have intentionally like have um teams selected for their obviously their technical merit and their their reputation, but also to try to create a diversity of voices within within project teams. And if that isn't coming through from uh architectural profession or other professions, you know, that that that um that we all lose something, I think, from that.

SPEAKER_01 6:51

So yeah, there is a thing that I say and I said when I was in office was you know, if we want the the societies and the communities that we build for, we need to ensure that um there's a there's a there's a plurality of the people who can have a say in designer, and that's the where the architect

Apprenticeships And Who Gets In

SPEAKER_01 7:12

comes in. So that's why the whole the whole idea of like campaigning for uh level seven apprenticeships was we we as a um the royal we with the Reba really focused on it because if we um exclude folks who can't go to university with the seven years degrees that we have, um we are only going to get the type of people who can afford to do so. Um I actually don't know where that that that campaign is at the moment, but the where when I left the seat of the presidency, we were really focusing on how we can implore the government to rethink um rethink the the level seven apprenticeship um um um attitude.

SPEAKER_02 8:02

Yeah. Yeah, and also you mentioned pay earlier, it's all it's all connected, isn't it? Because there's partly like uh you know getting a place at university, being able to fund the fees, the length of the course, but then there's the economic prospects when you you come out, and frankly, none of those are very compelling, really, are they for architecture for a person who needs to be an architect, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

So that needs to change. Yeah, and I know it's gonna take multi-stakeholders, is the government needs to look at their education program, especially for apprentices. If architects need to have a postgraduate to become registered architect, um, most postgrads are over 21. That means your apprenticeship scheme can't disqualify anyone who's over 21. Yeah. Um so that's that means you have a joint-up thinking about it.

SPEAKER_02 8:55

Yeah. And so so talk talk me through. I'm fascinated to understand. You've met you've mentioned sort of the deeper reason why you wanted to put yourself forward initially for the presidency, and then the process of you know doing that, being selected, and then you know, those two years, what was that like? And how maybe are you the same person now? Do you have a different outlook? Is it sharper? You know, how how do you see all of

What The RIBA Presidency Involves

SPEAKER_02 9:19

that for yourself?

SPEAKER_01 9:19

It's definitely sharper, it's definitely sharper. Um I mean when we were talking off camera, uh, I did mention that there was a sense sense of like uh naivety going into it. Um especially because I was very laser focused on uh the issue that I really cared about, and I forgot about the other things that you gotta do as president. For example, the judging you have to do for the Royal Gold Medal, and I I didn't it just didn't occur to me in the in the whole campaign process at all. But that those were the nice things. So the nice sort of soft power things, um, choosing who gets to be the Royal Gold Medal, choosing who gets to be the um Sterling Prize uh recipient. But those were um, I say, um, drivers of like what was important to me. Uh, because you're chair of all these committees and such. And um I remember um in the panel uh choosing or we having a short list of um um of projects for the Sterling Prize, and we really went for the last time, the last one was um the Elizabeth Line. And it was a kind of like sort of off-kelter choice because it wasn't a pure building, but if you think about it architecturally, it was an architecture-led uh project, like um uh an architecture company. Um, so that's it's a it's a it's a good story to tell that architects don't just live in the the sort of like housing realm. Um we do everything to do with community and infrastructure, the the the fabric that's that stitches um the community together, which the transport does as well. So it was also a fantastic uh conversation, and and I think those were the things that I really enjoyed when uh when in office, and I think now that I'm out of it, I get a sense that you know we just need to continue having this conversation about good design, public space, community in the open so that more people can talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 11:34

Yeah, yeah, totally. And you know, it couldn't be more apps. You know, we're sat in the public spaces here at the Barbican, you know, maybe people listening can hear there's music playing in the background over your shoulder, there's a couple practicing their dance routine. Yeah. Um public place public space is is super important, isn't it? And just that that sense that the city is for people. Yeah. Um you've mentioned it professionally, but also, yeah, that that's a big sort of responsibility as architects that the profession has, and and not by extension, developers and everyone, everyone working in cities and in a built environment. Um and just to have that representation, I think, is is critical. Um so, and as you say, it must have also been like you know, a real like privilege and you know, um opportunity to to be within those circles and to do that. And so so you know, because you how how did you feel like stepping into the institution then so to speak?

SPEAKER_01 12:28

And because it is, you know, it was it wasn't it was slightly daunting, I I must say. Um I I remember there was one time um that I had to like deal, I had to deal with I think it was the first week um that I had to like deal with an issue. Um oh yes, it was the fracking, no, the the RAC concrete issue. Yeah, if you remember the auto-re uh reinforced auto-erated concrete back in the 60s and 70s. And that just that that came in the first week of my my term in in office, and I just we they they needed um a spokesperson for the architecture industry or the design industry and um and builders, and they called on the RIBA and the representative was me. So I had to go on you know channel four and other news um um bulletin to talk about what the issues are, and I only got briefed like you know a couple of days before that, you know. So that was that was daunting, but also I really enjoyed that.

Plain-English Leadership Under Pressure

SPEAKER_01 13:38

I really now that one thing that I have that I've taken from it is this sort of um the the ability to communicate and to communicate in like um primary colours, that's what I call primary colours, so no um no big words, talk in plain English, um, and I I feel like that's now it's it's a it's a core skill that everyone needs to do, especially with AI and such.

SPEAKER_02 14:04

Yeah, no, no, I completely agree. And like, you know, for us when we're talking about bringing forward development, regeneration in in places like that element of communication through we you know, the consultation process, if you want to call it that, you know, engaging with local people, with local businesses, um you know, how how do you turn really quite complicated things and projects and processes into things which are uh understandable and use everyday language? And I think you know, the more that we can try to do that as a as an in industry, you know, and as people generally, to share ideas, um to find kind of common ground and and and not exclude people through a language that we use, no acronyms and other things like that. Um I think that's really like super important for building trust, building engagement, um connections between people and and people having a sense that they the places that we're developing are for them. Yeah, yeah. Um so I don't know how you've uh that that element of um yeah building building trust within what you've done, like how that must have been important for you because you're you know any position of leadership particularly like that, you're you're you know, i it's sort of a political aspect as well, isn't it? It's like sort of how do you how do you lead, how do you bring people along that journey with you?

Showing Up Across The Regions

SPEAKER_01 15:25

So the one thing that I don't know if anyone advised me on that, but I knew inherently was you know having that sort of skin to skin contact with people. And one of the one of the things that I I implemented for the president's office was a calendar for um touching base with all the different regions. So the RIBA splits um the regional regional um map into 12, I think. Um Northeast, Northwest, Midlands, and international. So I have the calendar to say that I need to go to all of the regions. I didn't go to all of them in the end, but I need to at least have a base with a school of architecture and uh um an office of architect a rebo chartered um office in at least as much as more as more regions as I could. And if we could if I could tie it in with an activity that we're already gonna do, for example, UK Reef we're talking about, I'm in Leeds, so I'll go to UK Reef, but also go and see a university school of architecture and a couple of um um architecture practices, just so that I think some people most people just want to know that they are being heard. And I don't I mean I don't want to minimize what I did there, but not that much, really. Well the the the well the one key thing was that the HQ came to us, came to our our practice, came to our school of architecture and really talked to us and understood what we were doing. And it was actually helpful for me because we in on a board level, on a council level, I could go back, I could collect all that those information and feed it back on a board level and say, look, this is leaves. They said XYZ, can we look into it? So it helped me in my communications back uh so that I don't look, I have things to offer at a at a board meeting and such, but also I I felt like it meant quite a lot to people's in you know Newcastle say say, oh wow, the president of the RIB came to us and talked to us about what we need, and he's thinking it back, um, we're happy with it, we we feel considered.

SPEAKER_02 17:44

Yeah, yeah, no, that's great, isn't it? And as you say, it's meeting people where they are, going, taking the effort, the time to to to go and see people. Yeah, whether it's getting out of your office or getting out of your city or whatever it is, and and um yeah, just showing up really and being there. And I think that as you say, there's a huge amount that people people take from that. And um, and how did you think because the ROBA is is obviously it's a a UK um regulatory body, but it's got a global kind of reach to it, hasn't it, as well? And and culturally, yeah, um, it's synonymous with kind of architecture design, standards, good quality. Um and so yeah, how did you did did you have much involvement internationally in terms of that and how do you how do you think about that personally as well,

Global RIBA Influence And London Tensions

SPEAKER_02 18:32

you know?

SPEAKER_01 18:32

You know, the RIBA it's funny, the RIBA in terms of like uh reputationally, internationally is perceived like you know, top tier, best in class. It's the oldest architecture institution in the world. Not the biggest because the AIA, the Americans do it better, they're bigger. Um but when I had to had the opportunity and the luxury of um going and representing the RIBA at um the Venice Biennale, all the other um international architecture and design conferences, and especially in like Asia, they they love the RIBA. They they they can't speak highly of the RIBA, and I think it's because um the standards that we set. So the plan of work, they use it in Malaysia, Singapore, um, China even. Um the the contracts, it's it's the sort of the gold standard as it were for um architectural projects, um especially for smaller projects. Um so it's on the international sense, it's looked at fantastically. And I managed to um open up an a European branch, so a cast wider net in Europe, and currently there's talks about having an Africa uh branch as well. Um but in the UK it's it's the the it's kind of the reverse. Where because we're closer home, um the UK chartership scene looks at that RIBA as just a London institution. Um and that's I mean perhaps that's why I decided um is innately just to go out and touch touch have touch points with um the different regions in the UK just to assuage that feeling, whether it's justified or not, that the RIBA is London only. Where do you think that comes from, then that sense? The sense is just because you know the headquarters here is in London, the the the library, most of the events are in London, the library is in London, and then there was the the House of Architecture project, which is the project that my predecessor started up, kickstarted, and um my my uh session of council pushed it forward to refurbish um the headquarters and find a like lasting home for the architecture collections that uh has over four million pieces of drawings, artifacts, periodicals and all that kind of stuff. So um it was a once-in-the-generation little thing that needed to be done, but it was all happening in London, so therefore everyone again added fuel to the fire that everything is in London. What does that it's kind of like that um um uh uh um scene in um in what's it called? In that what do what does Rome ever do for us? Yeah with multi-python, right? What does Rome ever do for us? And it's kind of like that, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:43

Yeah, yeah. Um and uh and for you for you personally, then, you know, do you have a sense of you know, having gone through that experience, you know, why is architecture important? Why are architects important you know, fundamentally? And how do you see that like empowering you personally into what you do at Mace now and sort of moving forwards?

Delivery Skills Safety And Education Reform

SPEAKER_01 22:06

Well, architecture is super important because it's the glue that binds the project together. I see it very, very starkly in the work that I do here at Mace, where, for example, there was a bid that we were working on and it's a multi, it's like a large site international. And there is this conversation about just answering the questions. And then when someone like me and the team were involved, we started to like liaise with the engineers and talk about, okay, so what does that look like for the end user? And it's very easy for the consultant team across the project lifecycle to just think about their um bit, their square or their bit of the project. And there isn't that sort of, there's only one person or one consultant that looks at the thread, uh, that ties it all together and what the output looks like. And that's what the architect does. And so therefore, I think it's important for architects to share that value creation, is that sort of cultural um value that we add to a project that makes it um usable, that makes it user-friendly, that makes it last like the barbecue can for 50-60 years.

SPEAKER_02 23:38

Yeah, yeah, no, it's fascinating. And um, and I think also because you know, I think you know, it's great to have you you on and you get your perspectives, and I think not only from the work you've done at the ROBA, but the fact that you're an architect working for a contractor or a consultancy contractor, yeah, you know, all of that is atypical from the traditional architects as in their role that is then, as we talked about, from maybe a certain background and doing a certain type of practice that talks to a certain type of people and works in a certain type of way. And I think that's so refreshing that. So, and you know, I've worked done a lot of work with Mace over the years, and I know that they're incredible at what they do, both the consultant side and the contractor side, but they are fully integrated. You know, you're not you're not um you're not there with architecture on a sort of upper level pedestal above everything else. You're you're probably working out what's right for the project, what's most efficient, what's best use of materials, what's technically deliverable. Um so that perspective on an architect, how do you see in practice now, you know, as opposed to in um the ROBA type role? Like how how do you see that and the value that you bring day-to-day to MACE and to those projects?

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Well, I I think again, I when I talk to my mentees and such, um, I do believe uh a core competency is the technical understanding, and I think it's now then to like translate that technical understanding into something that is um uh usable and like like communicating in the like primary colours, like I say. Um and one of the reasons why I'm um at a company like Mace is because I wanted to really strengthen my technical capacity and technical understanding, um, sort of the the technical deliverability of things. And that's that's where I think more architects could uh benefit from. Um and also the education system needs to um gear itself towards that. Because I remember reading this um an article, I think it was on the RIBA journal or AJ or something, and about like how the architecture um education system is like a baker or uh a chef that doesn't doesn't learn how to to bake a bread, bread or or cook a dish. You're just thinking about it in theory. And I think that sort of grounded on a technical level, um, even if it's cursory, um, needs to be uh I I I would say in my in my in my in my review or feedback to education establishments, you know, we need to put in the statutory elements to it. So like I remember not having to really consider building regulations at university because you knew that, well, that didn't really matter. And I think that needs to be tested in a more rigorous way, so that by the time you get out of university, there is a there's a sense that there's a there's the statutory compliance to the fantastical things that I'm designing and talking about the theoretically it really.

SPEAKER_02 26:49

Yeah, uh very well said, because you know, as a client, um, and I obviously started in architecture, so I have seen both sides, but as a client, the value that we see from architects, yes, it is in the aesthetic and um bringing ideas and unlocking value in terms of getting massing and you know unlocking complex problems, but it's really actually in that professional responsibility to ensure that the building is delivered well, that it is safe, that it is put together well, that it's gonna last. Yeah, you're coordinated with all your other consultancies. And I think that that notion of the historic master builder, however you want to call it, yes, architecture's not that now, and that's probably fine, but some element of that's definitely been lost over the years, and a focus more on the aesthetic or on the or on the theoretical or on the architectural narrative for that. And and I think so. I don't think that's as valuable to clients, I don't think it's as valuable to architectural practices and it ties to fees, it ties then to how are you preparing people to come into the working world. And um, you know, Kia, Regan, Alexander, and I from uh had a conversation about this on the podcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We were sort of saying, you know, in this world that's transforming with AI and and other things, yeah, really the architect um needs to hold on to and if not regain some of that technical competence and that responsibility and really own that in a positive sense.

SPEAKER_01 28:14

Yeah. Um you talked about safety, and again, one thing that um the RIBA that led within the RIBA was the principal designer role with BSA. Um and again, it's it's still a little bit of wild, wild west because anyone can be a principal designer. Um but it was imperative that the RIBA led for the architects to take on that role because it is um a statutory um uh uh requirement now. It's gonna be for high-risk builders in particular. And so therefore, it kind of like you say, like you say, kind of takes or gives the architects that ability to take control over the various um issues across the project lifecycle when it comes to risk and apportioning risk and on understanding and measured and and and dealing with risk when it comes to the entire project, not just the facade.

SPEAKER_02 29:13

Yeah, no, I completely agree, and I think that's gonna prepare those students, as you said, like for working life as well as well, you know, and and to be valuable to practice from from day one. Yeah. Um, I know that the counter-arguments for that within architecture is that you know, definitely during part one, you don't want to, you don't you don't want to stifle people's creativity, but equally there has to be that reality of like the actual day job of what you're doing and where you add value and to to businesses and practice. And um yeah, so maybe then like looking forwards, then maybe that's a nice segue to that. Like, how do you see, you know, you're still still a young man, you know, you've done an amazing amount in your career so far, but how do you see that kind of platform, you know, moving forwards for you? And uh yeah, how do you think about the future?

Future Plans And Better Places

SPEAKER_01 30:03

Well, I I I haven't thought too much about the future, funnily enough, because uh, like I said, I'm I'm getting married in not too long. Uh so now I'm just kind of like hunkering hunkering down and doing the day job. But I do really want to focus, like hone my skills a little bit more about on the delivery side. So like you know in my 10 coming up to 15 years in practice, I've only delivered like one building from start to finish. I know it's not that, it's not like a bad one or anything, but I I would want to like have a couple of other um significant projects under my belt. Um uh I would also want to uh start or have some sort of um touch points with um uh South Saharan Africa uh when it when it comes to design and development, uh especially because they are rapidly that rapidly developing. Um it'd be great to um you know have have a have a outreach there and build something and try to um get uh this little policy and trust back into like the the built environment over there. So that's one something, but then that's super super far in the future, and I don't have yet as yet uh uh uh uh a way in which that will be delivered, but that's that's the idea.

SPEAKER_02 31:28

Yeah, yeah. And well you mentioned to me off mic that planning a Nigerian wedding is is quite a feature in terms of people and uh things like that.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

So exactly. And it's it's international, so coordinating between here and there and getting everyone together, it's it's a it's a it's a feast of his own. So post-October, there'll be I'll after the wedding and hunting and whatnot, there'll be more um uh deep thought about where to go next.

SPEAKER_02 31:55

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, well that's a good way to to frame it and to think about things and then and so so how how do you think about the um the uh you know you know how how do we how do we make architecture design? We've talked about technically, but I don't know whether through the process you've thought about how buildings, places really feel authentic or or or grounded or in that local community, whatever that may be. Um we've talked about the fact that obviously we need more diversity in the people in design positions or in the client teams and and and that sensibility, but you know how how do we how do we move the vernacular on, however you want to talk about it, within places so that they feel of that place?

SPEAKER_01 32:47

Well, I think one thing I've been talking about it and I talked about it in in office on a sort of high-level policy sort of level about good places, how do you design um I think it was how do you quantify good design or something like that, or good places. And I I fear a little bit um that there is a super, there's a hyper financialization of real estate or and and and the built environment. And because quite a lot of people see that or believe that um real estate is uh uh purely an asset to get returns on. And that's for me that's a little bit of a problem because if you directly if you want to make quite a lot of like return on investment uh purely, I don't think places and buildings are the best way, the quickest way to do that, yeah, first and foremost. Um so that's what I think one an issue. We need to think about places, buildings as more than just the financial assets. Um so how to do that is still and I'm open to ideas on on it, but I just think part of that conversation needs to be put to the to the fore. But the second thing I I do believe then is to um have the space um to make people uh inhabit it as they wish. And the the the an example of that, for example, is King's Cross. I always think about King's Cross at the Granary Square, um the steps and the the water fountain area, and that is just it's it's small enough to be because it's it's edge has edges to it, but it's it's open enough for people to like, you know, I just want to sit here and not buy coffee and just listen to my music and do my thing. And that I think that's what is kind of needed. A space big enough for people to just like use willy-nilly. Yeah, not structured, unstructured space. People will put the structures around it. If it's I think that's in terms of like success of successful spaces, people put their structures within it, and you just put the um the canvas. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:18

Well, maybe that's a good place to end because maybe we go and watch these dancers who are just who are just making this space their own and occupying it in a really relaxed way. And um, yeah, no, it's been it's been really like great to have this conversation with you, you know, and to to get a bit deeper into your experiences and everything. And it was wonderful. Uh yeah, thank you for sharing that. It's good, good, good time. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 35:40

Thank you for listening to the Grow Places podcast. For more information, visit growplaces.com and follow us at We Grow Places across all social channels. See you next time.