Cigars and Cinema Podcast
Every cigar is smoked in thirds: First third, second, and final, just as every Movie is performed in three acts. Join Eric Drazin and Mike Coleman to delve into the world of cigars and movies as they analyze, break down, and critique cigars and films as each progress.
Cigars and Cinema Podcast
"Gatsby? What Gatsby?" Ep. 102 04/02/26
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Eric and Curtis tackle the classic story that's told in a not-so-classic way, the 2013 film The Great Gatsby. This is the last in the series on Leo DiCaprio, we promise! It has been a long road, but we made it. Join us in smoking the new blend by Paul Stulac the Blue Lightning Sky!
Stulac Blue Lightning Sky LINK:
https://oakglentobacconist.com/?s=lightning+sky&post_type=product
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Welcome back to another episode of Cigars and Cinema. Grab a cigar, something to pair it with, and let's be journey into another episode of Smoke and Scream. And many cigars and my full list has to make just for our membership. If you're interested and if you want to find out more about the subscription and the whole host of DT cigars, visit us at www.com or find us on social media platforms like Instagram and TikTok at OGT Cigars. Hello everybody and welcome back to another episode of Cigars and Cinema Podcast. If you're unfamiliar, this is the podcast where we smoke cigars and unabashedly commentate, in some cases, give extreme opinions on film and entertainment. I'm one for one of your hosts from Oakland Tobacchinist on the East Coast, Eric Drazen. And joining me from the opposite side, from the West Coast, we have Curtis Bailey. Curtis, good to have you back on the show.
SPEAKER_00I'm sorry, don't you mean Old Sport?
SPEAKER_02Yes, good to have you back, Old Sport. Man, I think that anyone we're gonna be talking about this movie tonight, but if anyone has seen this movie before, if you were to try and do a uh drinking game, take a shot every time old sport is said, you'd be done.
SPEAKER_00Not a good idea. Yeah, don't even seek a medical professional ahead of time. Just just don't.
SPEAKER_02So so if anyone has been following this series or listening on podcast streaming formats, uh, you know we have been going through Leonardo DiCaprio's films. We are finally at the end. This is the last one. I have to say, not as painful as I thought it was going to be.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_02So that's that's at least some sort of positive to it.
SPEAKER_00Indeed.
SPEAKER_02Um, it looks like we got some people jumping on, dropping down comments. As always, guys, you are highly encouraged to do so. Let us know what are you smoking tonight? What are you maybe pairing with tonight? What do you think of the movie? All those things, put them down in the comments and join the conversation as Curtis and I get set for tonight. Uh, it's always that much more enjoyable when you do so. So please keep those comments coming. Uh, first of which, RJ saying, Hello, Eric and Curtis. Tonight I'm smoking the Stillwell Star 22. Was in the mood for a nice pipe smell with my cigar tonight.
SPEAKER_00I was about to say, I don't think I'm familiar with that one. Do you know Stillwell?
SPEAKER_02Yes. So Stillwell Star is a Dunbarton cigar, but it's the one that has like pipe tobacco in the filler. Right. So um, that one, number 22, I believe, is the aromatic. In my opinion, one of the better ones. You get good sweetness from it. I believe it has Virginia and Burley in it, but it's a different type of cigar. Like if you want something that's flavor-enhanced but not like infused, it's kind of a good way to go. Okay. So very nice. Uh, Jason saying, Hello, fellas. Uh, enjoying a rusty nail and enjoying a the chilly weather outside.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Thank goodness. I was complaining about it last week, but it's been nice and brisk today.
SPEAKER_02Okay, okay. It's finally cooled down a bit. Yeah. Calm before the storm.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we'll see.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, everything here is turning green finally, which is really cool. Kind of moving from the the kind of grays and browns and dark like February into like the really green spring, and then soon to be really green summer. So looking forward to it. Right on. Um, yeah, but I having those comments drop down, I was reminded uh, and I gotta give a shout out of the OGT crew in California because Andrew Mitchell just got married and he was a part of our crew there. So, congratulations, Andy. Don't know if you're watching tonight, but super happy to hear about that. So Andrew. Awesome. Uh, and as you say cheers, what is it that you have chosen to pair your cigar with?
SPEAKER_00Uh, well, I was a good boy, and I did not in the intervening period finish off my bottle of Kokarin yet.
SPEAKER_02So self-control.
SPEAKER_00That's right.
SPEAKER_02Oh, very nice. Well, uh, tonight it is uh Curtis's pick. We're gonna jump into the movie, but first, let's talk a little bit about the cigar. This is the new uh like variety pack that well, I say new, but it was last month's variety. Um, and every week we try to go through the variety club by smoking what was sent out to the members. Um and it's this is the variety club, it's a sampler of different stuff, not the same all in one. So uh if you guys haven't heard of this or haven't been able to jump on yet, this is what the variety pack looked like uh for March. It's a killer lineup with no rope, which was one of our favorites from last year. We have the Paul Sulak Blue Lightning Sky, which was his newest release, the Crownheads Warez, which I think this is the mini dozer version. It's only a four and a half by 58. I think personally the best Warez we've seen to date. We'll be we'll have to judge that. And then that unbanded Maduro Cigar is an upcoming project we had coming. And I was like, let's give everyone the variety a sneak peek of what's happening. And then finally, we have the Goldie Grace from Cigar Clown. So killer lineup. Tonight we're gonna be smoking the Blue Lightning Sky by Paul Stulak. This is in the Toro size. So this is six by 54 Toro. It sports a dark Sumatra wrapper over Nicaraguan binder and fillers. And I could be going crazy here, but I thought we had actually smoked this on cigars and cinema. Does this seem familiar at all?
SPEAKER_00Uh, I mean, I maybe I should be like keeping a list of what we have and haven't smoked, but I want to say no.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Okay, so whatever. Either way, I am excited for this cigar. It's been a little bit uh like since I've smoked it. I smoked a ton of them when they first arrived. I'm excited to jump into this one.
SPEAKER_00Good.
SPEAKER_02So uh let's get a cold draw going. I mean, when it's ever Stu Lac, I always have I always am very happy with Stu Lak stuff. All right, ooh, there's a lot of like Tootsie Roll Pop cherry flavor on that. Like the I can say that as a kid, yeah. Interesting. Wow, that is intense. It's it's literally those Tootsie Pops, but then the cherry flavor. That's crazy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, maybe just a slight um bit of salinity as well.
SPEAKER_02Okay, okay, spiciness on the lips too, textual-wise. Yeah, yeah. This is what I really enjoy about Sumatra cigars, is you can have such an explosive difference in experience in Sumatra. I've seen some that are really light, and they're even very mild cigars. Take like uh Stallone Mustang, uh, the short Toro. It's like it's like a morning cigar, it's got some good nettiness. This, though, from experience, is not that. It's a bit stronger than something like that. So I'm excited to jump into it. Me too. All right, so we're gonna get this lit up and see where it begins. Every cigar leaves an impression.
SPEAKER_00However, it's not until you take a moment and analyze the full experience from construction to flavor to profile that you can truly appreciate it.
SPEAKER_02So enjoy your cigar as you light it up. Take the time to toast it, smell the room note, and experience the first notes as they come alive.
SPEAKER_00In the same way, movies can tell deeper stories or show us things we haven't noticed on the surface. So journey with us as we take a more detailed appreciation for the craft of cigar and movie making.
SPEAKER_02All right, this is a 54 gauge, and I have a single flame, so I'm feeling it. I'm trying to get this thing full. So uh if I go, if I go silence just because I'm concentrating on the tobacco, uh, let me know what are any of the notes that are jumping at you right now.
SPEAKER_00Um, there's definitely a little bit of uh spice up front, probably best categorized as like a black pepper flavor. Um, there's a little bit of uh kind of musty, earthy tones, and then maybe a salted pretzel, like a crunchy pretzel.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I totally see that. Yeah. Salty, yeah. There's I mean the pepper for sure. That salted, like soft pretzel for sure. Well, like almost like uh it's somewhere in between. It's it's got a bready element, but I feel like it's more a very crisp toasted soft pretzel, if that makes sense. And then I also get a really distinct note on the finish of almost like eucalyptus, which is kind of like a different piny eucalyptus element going on. Um, good backside sweetness. I'm not getting any of that like medicinal cherry aspect I was getting in the beginning.
SPEAKER_00No, I don't think I am either. But just like you know, I feel this is generally true about out Stu Lac. Maybe not every single product that they come out with, but like you gotta be on board for flavor. Yes. One of these, like it's not shy, not a wallflower, like this is like the Kool-Aid man.
SPEAKER_02Yes. No, 100%. It is not a subtle cigar, it's not one of the cigars that you just light, like I'm just casually enjoying a very like mellow day. No, it's like I'm ready for a cigar. Let's light up a cigar. And that's why I like Stewak stuff so much. Uh, Jason's saying, definitely a sweet note on the dry draw, fruity hard candy. But there you go. Jason was getting it too. Um, how does the blue lightning sky work with that Kilcarin?
SPEAKER_00Uh, nice, but uh, you know, I mean, this is not like the punchiest scotch in the world, uh, ABV. I think it's like around 43, 40, maybe no, I think it's 46. Um, okay, but it is pretty rich in flavor, so you know you can't um uh put it up against something that's gonna be a little bit too um timid or not match up. So just like on strength for strength level, as the tasting experiences go, very nice combination.
SPEAKER_02Nice, nice. Not one's not crazy overpowering the other, then. No, awesome. Okay, well, let's get into it. Let's let's move on from this this barrage of Leo films, and let's dive into the very last one. You had proposed two different uh movies to me in terms of like, hey, what if we did this, this, and we went with this one. So, what are we talking about tonight?
SPEAKER_00This is the Great Gatsby from 2013, I believe.
SPEAKER_02Yes, 2013.
SPEAKER_00Already came out just a few years ago, right? Nope. Did you watch this movie in the theater? I had never seen it until the last night. Really?
SPEAKER_02Wow, and your your world was just shaken with how great this movie was, huh?
SPEAKER_00Well, well, we'll talk about that.
SPEAKER_02So I actually watched this movie in theater. In fact, I had read uh the book or the play. I can't remember. I maybe it was the I think it was the book. I had read it beforehand. Um, and at the time, 2013, if we were to rewind the clocks, um, around that time, I actually wrote a prohibition play. Really? Yeah, for our theater company that we were doing. It was kind of like a pseudo inspiration inspired by like Chicago. So there's like period music of the time, and it was just about the the craziness of Prohibition. Um, so when this movie came out, I was like, this is gonna be really cool. Um, I was really jazzed to see it, although I didn't really care much for the book. And then we watched the movie, and I had thoughts then. I rewatched it recently, I have thoughts now, so I'm interested to get into it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, and it was uh a little bit interesting for me because I have read this, but it was like 30 or more years ago, so any familiarity that I had with the story and the themes and stuff like that was just super super faint. Like, I okay, I don't I didn't actually like I couldn't recall this story very well. I have no idea. In fact, it's to the degree that like I can't say how faithful this film adaptation is to the source material, both in terms of plot and theme. So, you know, fill me in on what you think about that.
SPEAKER_02But well, I mean, um likewise, I haven't seen read the book probably for about 15 years, 14 years, maybe. Um, from what I understand, plot-wise, yes, it's pretty close. They do seem to stretch out some of the melodrama and the romance a bit more and make it almost a especially how the movie ends. I feel like I'm like, I don't remember the book totally moving that, but I could be completely wrong. But from what I understand, point by point, it's not that far off.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_02So we'll go with that. Um, I think it's a bold move in terms of the entire execution of this movie, is a very bold move from what's his name, Baz Lerman?
SPEAKER_00Lerman.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um, I mean, we know, of course, like he's his his stuff that he's done in the past has is definitely in this kind of range with like Moulin Rouge. Um for sure. I didn't see Elvis, didn't really care to see Elvis.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think I'm in the same boat.
SPEAKER_02Um, but it was a bold move in terms of like we're gonna tell it through his eyes at the same time with like modern music, and again, we talked about this in Django and Chaint. Um, I think it fits a little bit better in using modern music to fit this movie, and strictly because Heath starts right out the gate, this is what we're gonna do. And so you're either on board or you're not. Whether or not I was, I don't know. But I do I didn't hate it.
SPEAKER_00Well, what I think he's doing here is not too dissimilar from what he did in in Moulin Rouge, which is another period movie that had that uses modern music in a lot of cases, like you know, uh um dance favorites uh yeah for these party scenes, because what I think he's hoping to convey is because you know, it can be really easy to hear um you know the music that would have been the popular party music to play from the 1920s, and just think of it all as old-timey, and that like it's not fresh or hip or whatever. And uh, I think Boz Lemeron wants you to feel like, oh no, to them, this is what that music felt like. It was the the the crank it up, let's get dirty and party, maybe slightly subversive, you know, get loose music. So I believe that's what he's going for with that approach.
SPEAKER_02I no, I I agree, and whether or not it works, um, I I do think it's a good choice overall. I think it's interesting. I do like the fact too. So, of course, there's that I think it was written for the movie, the whatever like anthem of I think it's Lana Del Del Rey, maybe we've seen I you might be right.
SPEAKER_00I'm I'm I'm I'm too old to to know or care. Correct.
SPEAKER_02But I remember just hearing that song, and then it's played throughout. Um, and there's even a moment where they do a jazzy version version at a party doing that. That type of concept, it's not original, however, it was very common in the 30s to do. You have a lot of musicals back then that would have like uh good example of this is like some of the Astera Rogers films. They would have like um a fine romance, which there's a moment where they're singing to each other and it's a bit more solemn. And the next thing you know, they're at a nightclub and there's the bands playing it in a jazz format in the back. I was like, I don't know if that was intentional, but I do feel like that's somewhat of a nod to like older films, and I was like, okay, I'm that's cool. That takes time. Um Jason is saying, Eric, I didn't hear it. You like the book over the movie? To be honest, I don't really like either. Um, but let's talk about the movie.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I was gonna say we can we can definitely talk about that. Um, I mean, we jumped into talking the music right away because it's one of the most kind of um particular things with this film style. But like, what are your your initial broad overview thoughts of the movie?
SPEAKER_02This is gonna sound sacrilegious to a lot of people. But if I hadn't read the book, let's remove we're we are removing the book from the movie. We're simply saying the movie going into this movie, especially like in your shoes of like faint idea of the plot, but not really sure.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02I it's to me, I just kept having the question is this a story worth telling on the screen? Like, and maybe we've lost some of the relevance as the time passes. And I feel like the director's trying to bridge that gap, but honestly, I'm like all the way through this kind of feels like Americana, like American version of some of the like Jane Austen type stories that had a bit more substance, and it was a bit more infused with just like 1920s, glitz, glamour, Leo, and here's our movie. And I'm like, honestly, I don't even know if this movie needed to be made.
SPEAKER_00I I think I kind of agree, and um, you know, one of the things that often happens, at least it seems like it often happens, when translating a uh a famous or well-loved novel to the screen, is trying to find a way to um maintain or preserve or honor the author's prose. And more often than not than not, that comes in the form of narration. Now, I don't know if that's the case necessarily with this movie. We have a lot of narration from Toby Maguire, uh, which I believe is passages of text taken from the novel or at least adapted from it. Yeah, and they did the same thing in the Shawshank Redemption, which is another movie that's pretty good, but I think gets held back a little bit by this thing where they're just like, like, no, we need to preserve the author's words. The way what people love about this book, or one of the things that's special about it, is the way he wrote these specific sentences and the dialogue in the character's mouth. So let's keep it in the movie. And I don't think that works very well most of the time, because uh, you know, you just referenced Jane Austen, for example. I've seen a bunch of adaptations of her work, and I don't think any of them lean on narration, they let the characters perform the parts, and we get to see them engage in dialogue scenes with other characters where they're reacting to choices that are being made, and the emotions are playing it on their faces, and that makes the drama work. And this has so much of that just like background Tobin Beguire describing the way he was feeling and thinking about stuff, and you can kind of see it happening on screen at the same time and whatever. But for me, there's just like an automatic like I can't feel as invested in this because of that stylistic approach, right?
SPEAKER_02And and I actually, yeah, I want to jump on that as well. And I know this will probably make people upset. I'm glad you mentioned Sha Shank Redemption. I'm a huge Stephen King fan, I am not a fan of that movie. I probably should watch it again, but a lot of people hate me for saying that almost as much as Tombstone. I don't think it's as good as what people say, but that's for another day. Um issue and I agree with you with Toby McGuire's ongoing narration, it is so heavy laden with the language of the time, which yes, it's good as an ode, but you now have it warring against contemporary music because a lot of the narration is just audible and pictures in front of us, right? And it feels like they that gap is too far. Like you want you want to make it more relevant and be like, let's have modern rap music and party music at these parties. I'm like, okay, I can make that connection, but when it's next minute, all this flowery language coming out in narration form, I'm like, I I it's almost a tug of war, a mental tug-a war feeling that I have, and it doesn't really work for me, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um yeah, I mean that that's that's a probably like the first some stumbling block for me with this film was just that, and that's a uh stylistic convention that goes throughout the whole film, so you can't escape it at any point. Um, and because the so much time is being devoted to living in uh Toby Maguire's headspace, I feel like we get less actual uh drama interaction with some of the other players in this story, so it's almost like it's a uh a double whammy kind of impact on like how the drama plays out. Um, and I felt it the most in the character of Gatsby himself, which we'll talk about DiCaprio's performance and stuff like that, but um because he's treated so much like a mystery for uh uh uh portion of this narrative, and then you know we get to know him only a little bit piece by piece, and that's sort of by design, right? Because he's hiding things and whatnot. But I think the intent is for me to feel uh uh uh empathy and sadness for the tragedy of this relationship that he tried to make happen and fails at it. And I don't know that I can get there because I just don't know that I care about Gatsby that much.
SPEAKER_02That's completely fair, I agree, or Daisy for that matter, and I think it like you're supposed to in the beginning, at least at least the way it plays out in the narration is I. Understand it, you're supposed to want them to get together, and then you realize she really gives him up for her the comfortability and the the wealth of this world at the time. But I'm sorry, two hours and 22 minutes of dealing with maybe 40 minutes of this like passionate hand holding and gasping and all this type of thing. It's towards this like there's really no substance to this enough for me to vote for them to be like, come on, they can make it. And there are moments, it is sad when she like can't admit that she didn't love the other guy, but not enough for me to be like, I'm invested, and this movie really doesn't give you cause to invest in anybody.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Referring to that scene in particular where you're they're they're in that kind of like you know, drawing room or whatever you want to call it, where Gatsby's trying to get uh her to basically say that to her husband that she never loved him. And you know, like on the one hand, it does seem that she was genuinely interested earlier in the story of like, oh, I've remet the person who I feel like is the love of my life, we've rekindled a thing, I want to go away with him. She's even willing to say stuff referencing that to her husband's face in that story, but you know, she still also kind of goes down this avenue. She's like, Well, I I I have to be honest about my feelings too. My feelings aren't what Gatsby wants me to say, so that we can just tie this off neatly. And I think that you know, maybe there's some dramatic complication and interest from the fact that she has her own feelings that are not being driven by like what Gatsby wants her to do, it just feels so I don't know, kind of sudden or perfunctory. Maybe it's because the way the thing is structured through Toby Maguire's character's eyes that we don't get to spend time with Daisy alone and learn how she's feeling about it. We only see it through this lens of his observation. So when those big dramatic moments happen like that, it just feels like I'm not that I haven't quite fully invested in these characters. Well, and yeah, well, oh, sorry, interrupt. I'm done. Go.
SPEAKER_02Well, to your point, uh, one of the pivotal things is that Gatsby's like, she has to tell him that he she never loved him, like ever. And you see in the beginning, she's reluctant about like, well, we should just run away. And then he calls Toby McGuire and says he she's ready to say that she doesn't love Tom. We didn't see any of that, we didn't see the conversation. So we're now being like, Oh, so is this this like Gatsby's so drunk on love that he just really, really hopes? But if that's so, we skip past that part, and you're like you're saying, like, we don't see any of the introspection on Daisy. So it's that same feeling I had it kind of had in the in Django and Chain when Brumhilda faints.
SPEAKER_00Oh, for sure.
SPEAKER_02Conversation happened. It's just it's like, why I don't know, you're choosing the wrong things to spend your two hours and 22 minutes on, personally.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and well, and you know, we've talked about this before too, with what it means to adapt something. And for a lot of fans, that means copy the source material as closely as you possibly can, and you know, only change what you have to to make it work for film. And I don't know that I necessarily agree with that. That can be a good approach, depends on the execution and the material and whatnot. But I could see this story being one that would greatly benefit from not placing the whole thing through what's the character's name that Tommy McGuire plays, uh other than old sport, uh Nick Caraway. Nick. Uh, if the this whole narrative was not framed exclusively through Nick's POV, and we got to treat it more slightly conventionally, I guess, with how the time is divided between the main characters, and we really got to know Daisy better and see her independent of how Nick remembers her, that might have been better for me, anyway.
SPEAKER_02True. Now, okay, instead of uh, because I know we're we're approaching somewhat the halfway point, but I will say uh a spectacle visual aspect I did enjoy is I liked how they use certain parts of the set or lighting to convey the emotion of character, and so one of the first glimpses I feel like we get this is when uh Nick goes to visit Tom and he's like, I'm here to visit Daisy, my cousin, and he goes in that room and you have all that like lacy white like blowing in the wind.
SPEAKER_00That's a cool sequence.
SPEAKER_02It is because you're you kind of see okay, who these two women are gonna be and how they're like, and then Tom enters, close the door, shut everything down, right? And it kind of like yeah, moves that source of like who's who's in power of the room. Um, so stuff like that. I'm like, okay, that's that's a good thing, and you don't see it as common in movies, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And uh Boz Lorman has always been a director, at least to his work that I'm familiar with, who um puts an emphasis on um visual presentation, staging, oftentimes very theatrically so. I mean, Moulin Rouge is just like a the funhouse of bananas, like you know, stuff. Um, and I think there are some very strong things in this movie, like that scene you just mentioned. However, um, I don't know if it was uh intentional or if it was limitations of the budget and the technology at the time, but you know, there's a lot of stuff they have to do in this to try to recreate a semi-ish fictional 1920s New York. Um, so there's a lot of you know, um, redoing the New York skyline and you know, showing these characters out like on the boat with there's a sunset and stuff. And I'm like, I can tell these people are standing on a green screen and just piping in the background in post-production, and a lot of it really uh it was distracting to me, yeah. Yeah, that look, and I was like, maybe there wasn't a better way to do this at the time. Maybe Boz Lerman wanted that stylized, dreamlike look, you know. Maybe that's exactly what he he wanted to get out of it. I would but I it it was hard for me to ignore. I thought it was even ugly.
SPEAKER_02I definitely see what you're saying. I feel it's almost a little bit of both. I could be wrong, but it does seem to fit his MO. Yeah. Um, my issue with someone like with something like Moulin Rouge is it really just feels like a musical someone made of their favorite songs in a playlist on an iPad, very much and just put it on there. It's zany. Yeah, so yeah, I mean it begs the question too. Like, if you're gonna tell the story, are you the best person to tell it? Because you will have that like fantastical backdrop of it, the green light sequences. Anytime we're at the dock, like we're straight on green screen. It's the same problem, I feel like when we uh uh I think we analyzed it, or maybe we just talked about it at the shop, but Death on the Nile. You have the having such a beautiful landscape and backdrop, and instead you choose to go that route. And it's like maybe that is intentional. I don't think it's the right choice.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, uh just obviously shooting on location is difficult and challenging and you know, uh brings all kinds of problems of its own. And I understand why for producers, like, hey, look, what look how much money and travel cost and whatever we could save by just you know piping in the background with uh uh post-production, and sometimes they do that stuff in movies, and like I didn't even know they were doing it. I was like, holy cow! Like, I'll see afterwards that it was all special effects. I'm like, that was impressive. Yeah, in this movie, you can tell.
SPEAKER_02Yes, 100%. Okay, so real quick, let's take a brief break as we get into the second third of this cigar. Um, do you notice any differences? What are your thoughts?
SPEAKER_00I think for me, whatever uh portion of the flavor profile that you would classify as bready or like that pretzel thing has become a little bit more prominent. It's like thrown elbows a little bit with some of the other flavors that are in there. Um, but uh I mean, still I mentioned you know, pretzel. Um, I mean, there is a distinct salty character to this cigar for me.
SPEAKER_02I definitely like yeah, toasty, salty. Um, there's that hint of spice still there. I don't know directly what sweetness I'm getting off of it, it's there, yeah. Um, but just really well rounded. I think sometimes the issue that people run into when it comes to Sumatra cigars is that it can be just kind of like either bitter uh or so savory, there's just no nothing to counteract it. It's just like savory burnt ends. Um, where this I'm digging the the the roundedness of the cigar, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And uh for me on the the retrohale, the extra dimension that I get from that feels like it's in the neighborhood of like um uh herbal or eucalyptus or you know stuff that's in that direction, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I would say it's pretty consistent in that. Um, it's really cool too, as an addition to the Stu Lac portfolio, because he has a lot of the Maduro side, the broadleaf side that tend to be more on those espresso cocoa notes, whereas this has got a lot of different things going on, but at the same time maintaining the stoolak strength behind it. So it's I I appreciate it showing another side of it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, this is nice, and you're you're right. I you know, oftentimes with cigars that are I don't want to say of this style, but for lack of a better word, because my brain is stupid. Um, you would expect like cocoa and uh sweetness and that kind of thing. And I don't know that I have a lot of that on this particular one at all. Not that that's a detriment, I think this tastes great, but it's just a notable thing, I think.
SPEAKER_02Yes, 100%. Uh Jason's saying getting a sourdough bread bowl taste.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_02There you go. Yeah, breadiness, something there. Um, but really nice. Burn rate is really good too. So I'm excited to see as this continues. Um, okay, so this is the month of Leo movies. Yes, let's talk a bit about his performance, uh, his portrayal. What do you think?
SPEAKER_00You know, I I don't know if I know where to draw the line between how the character is written, either from the source material or in the script for this film, versus what DiCaprio is doing. And I think that part of the problem for me, and it's maybe because I just didn't remember the story almost at all. That for a good chunk of the movie, I'm wondering, I'm like, is this guy genuine? Is he a Cretin? Is he you know uh a sincere heartbreak, you know, kind of uh you know, loner with uh pretensions to grandeur that he didn't earn and stuff? Like I was having a hard time figuring it out, and maybe that's part of the point. Um I think that DiCaprio has been very good in a handful of movies that I've seen. Like there's one he did with Kate Winslett called Revolutionary Road, and he's godsmackingly good in that. Both of them are. I think that maybe this character by his nature has some limitations, and DiCaprio is doing his best to make the emotions feel earnest, especially once all the cards are finally on the table in the third act, and we get to see his heart kind of ripped open and you know be the optimist that uh Nick keeps referring to. Um, I just don't know if it was enough for me to like fall in love with this guy or feel the deep feelings for him that the story seems to be asking.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, no, I agree. I um I feel like the way it's written is pretty flat, and I don't feel like he had a bunch to pull on. Um there's almost this like forced upon intrigue that you're supposed to be really intrigued of who is Gatsby? What is it? I don't really feel it. If anything, it's a like in the back of my mind, like, okay, well, maybe he's a gangster, maybe he's not. I don't really know. Um, and it's different when you watch it a second time for sure. Right. But it's it was never enough for me. It was it. I found myself not asking who is Gatsby. I found myself asking, why is everyone so intrigued by him?
SPEAKER_00Because I definitely or or why as I should the viewer care.
SPEAKER_02And then you see, kind of like he's he's this kind of like not con artist, but he's been able to struggle his way up the social ladder to get to the point he was. And at the same time, these elaborate like get together parties and such was just a way to get closer to Daisy. It shows like he's sincere and he's all in. At the same time, I'm like, that's probably a bad idea to go about it doing that way.
SPEAKER_00Now, one thing I'm curious about do you do you know? Obviously, I can look it up right now, but I'm just curious if you know when this the novel uh for this was published. Was it before or after the stock stock market crash in 29?
SPEAKER_02I believe it was before, if I'm not mistaken. I want to say, let me see.
SPEAKER_00Because obviously there's a lot of stuff baked into this story that's about um you know the American dream, the perversion of the American dream, like you know, the the different weird avenues that you can follow to try to achieve the American dream. And is it satisfying if you achieve it? You know, does that give you the fulfillment that you're looking for? And I think that all of that stuff, just as you know, thematic ideas has merit. So, like, you know, credit to the source material and for this movie for you know maintaining it, like you know, I think all of that stuff counts and is is good. It's really with the interpersonal character relationships in this story where I think I kind of feel like it doesn't take me where it seems to want me to go.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Uh so the book was published in 1925.
SPEAKER_00So yes, before all right.
SPEAKER_02Um yeah, and I mean the themes of like, you know, they live on West Egg, he lives on East Egg, and at the end he's like, they're a rotten bunch. I'm like, okay, it's a cool enough theme, I guess. Um, and I don't know because I don't really remember the book in that in that sense. I feel like it was more focused on that concept. The this movie, I feel like it is a kind of like opening question and a like finishing question. At the same time, we don't just like Daisy get enough time to really explore it. Um Mallory's saying, I think the shallowness of the emotion is part of the point, though. Possibly. I mean, I can see that as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean that's that's a tricky thing for me to kind of roll with because she might be absolutely right. Um, and you know, if the uh emotion is shallow or misplaced, does that make Gatsby and his ultimate fate more sympathetic? Less sympathetic. Sure. I'm not sure if I know where I land on that, right?
SPEAKER_02Well, and she's saying both Daisy and Gatsby are operating on illusions, sure. Um I think honestly, for me personally, for whenever it comes to any like narrative or story, it's gonna be a tough sell when you have like a cast of characters that are also kind of like removed in a way, like it in this movie. I think what we are lacking is empathy or sympathy. Like that is not really a driving force for any of our protagonists in this, not Nick Caraway, but as he narrates this, and he kind of like has several lines alluding to how Gatsby was so great, alluding to the title. And I'm like, but I don't really see why he was so great. Maybe I'm missing something here.
SPEAKER_00Well, I mean, it seemed to be that thing where he was referring to Gatsby's optimism, which I guess is kind of expressed in this narrative. You know, I mean, we definitely see him, you know, he there's that the way they frame that specific thing where you know the final phone call comes in, and you know, he sees the guy pick up the phone, and Gatsby's convinced that it's Daisy calling him to you know, say, let's let's get back together anyway. And and and it wasn't, but he dies with that being the final thought in his head. So, you know, um, you know, it could be that Nick was just looking at all of the cynicism and emotional exploitation, and you know, like uh Joel Edgerton's character, you know, being this guy who you know doesn't love uh Daisy in any apparently meaningful way. He's cheating on her and all that kind of stuff. So maybe like despite all the subterfuge and other stuff, there was like an emotional purity in Gatsby that Nick was responding to. I just wish that I felt that more in the way the story was told, and I don't think that I do. Maybe that's me, maybe I'm like being a weird, closed-off male in some fashion. I have no idea. I don't think so, but nevertheless, that's how I felt about it watching it last night.
SPEAKER_02No, I think it's completely justified, at least from my perspective, uh, for that as well. I there's some sort of disconnect that I don't know. I I don't really feel it for not even our narrow narrator. Um and that's another thing, too. Like Toby Maguire's performance. What are your thoughts on on his performances, Nick Haraway?
SPEAKER_00Um gosh. I don't know. I mean, I I feel like he's doing what the story, the script, whatever is is asking of him. Um I feel like I find that character almost a little bit irritating.
SPEAKER_02I think I found his voice a little bit irritating on the narration, which is it just it doesn't fit. It's kind of like I don't know, he's not, I don't think he's a Morgan Freeman. His his voice is not good. Um, and uh oftentimes distracting by the way it's presented. Um and so, too, the okay. So, what I'm also curious about is that we're supposed to believe that Gatsby is this great guy who's got optimism and is very sincere. At the same time, he befriends Nick and gives him an invitation just to get what he wants. Now that's that slowly transforms into legitimate friendship, I feel like.
SPEAKER_00But I I believe that that Gatsby actually likes being in Nick's company. Yes, I think the movie sells that.
SPEAKER_02But in the beginning, it's it's confusing. It's like, okay, are we meant to believe like Nick is this special guy that he really wants to create this bond with? And then you're like, oh, he's trying to get a meeting together with over tea. So okay, we can see that there's something there. So maybe he learned something in between, but it's not to say that like from the get-go, Gatsby's got this like really sincere outlook, right? He's just striving to get what he wants, the to get to the green light, the star, whatever, and he's using people to get there. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, I'm curious about your thoughts on a particular moment in the movie, and I'm assuming this is from the source material. Mallory, if you have thoughts and feelings on this, please chime in. But it struck me as a little strange that Daisy and Gatsby were more or less aligned with what they were going to do in that scene in that parlor room where they're partying. And her uh apparent commitment to their you know shared goal changes when Gatsby loses his temper. And I understand, like, you know, with the probably like the social expectations of how people are supposed to behave in the 1920s and maybe some other things that that outburst from him was you know a big deal. But taking in the like the long view of what these characters really want from each other and the extreme yearning after having not been together for what did they say? Is it five years? Five years, and just all that other stuff. I'm like, really, that's the thing that changes your mind? Is he got a little upset because this jerk is pushing his buttons? That struck me as like a very weird plot note. But maybe I'm looking at it too contemporarily or whatever. But what do you think?
SPEAKER_02I think that okay, let's let's take the argument side of okay, yeah, contempt speaking time period. Um, if that is such an affront, then all the other modern updates you give this movie don't work.
SPEAKER_00Maybe, yeah.
SPEAKER_02It's not, it's not, it doesn't, you it doesn't continue. Uh Mallory says, I think it's a break between old and new money. Um maybe there's yeah, the propriety of like, oh yeah, you really are not of actual money, but if that's the case, it's it's like I have this issue in a lot of movies when you find these people that you're supposed to be like, okay, this is the love story. One person is like good, quote unquote good, the other person is not so good, or is makes really bad choices and really sells out at the end. I'm like, okay, what does this say about Datsby that hit the love of his life? This person he's completely in love with is Daisy, who is just kind of a shallow shell. Like, what did he see in her that was so intoxicating? Like that to me is a little bit confusing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, perhaps. I mean, I I like uh is it Carrie Mulligan? Is her name? The you know, I mean, I I think she's great. Um, you know, I I I I definitely think that she makes this uh this woman a likable person, you know, even with some of the the stuff that she the weird choice. She has to make just because of the way the narrow narrative is is structured and stuff. But um I I think this goes back to what we were talking about before, but because the story is framed through Nick's memory, it's his version of what he remembers that um, and because the movie maintains that structure, that I feel like I don't get to know these people, maybe even specifically her, you know, well enough to kind of um you know have strong feelings about that sort of thing. Again, to make a comparison to other adaptations that play with similar-ish ideas, we talked about Jane Austen adaptations. I think that uh Sense and Sensibility or the BBC version of Pride and Prejudice, you know, really gives these characters lots of personality and breathing. Maybe that's just Jane Austen is a better writer than F. Scott Fitzgerald. I don't know. But like um I I always felt a little bit of a distance from these people. There's a certain uh formalistic uh approach or something going on with the way that they're presented that it felt more uh um mannered and less uh humanistic to me. And yeah.
SPEAKER_02No, I know for 100%. Uh Mallory says Daisy characterizes herself through her daughter as a fool and avoids every serious moment like the plague and continues true to her character, which I wouldn't I would say is a is a very good thing.
SPEAKER_00I think that's very accurate, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Again, why did Gatsby fall for this person? Even the scenes when they reconnect and stuff, like when you first meet Daisy in her form of language, you see she's a very like tortured soul, she hates her life as she is right now, right? And then she meets Gatsby and like gets reunited. At the the whole time, I'm like, this this lady is like vapid. Like, I I to me know I find no like redeeming quality in her because she's so materialistic. And I get that that's the point that's a big theme of this movie. Um, but when it's played out and it's like, yeah, that's exactly who she is, even at the end. I don't know, it leaves me very, very empty.
SPEAKER_00Um, well, to no go ahead.
SPEAKER_02Oh, and I was just saying, Mallory says because she's an idea to him, not a person, therefore, undermining the sincerity of him as well. Like perhaps I don't know.
SPEAKER_00I mean, but you know, I mean, I I think there's um definitely storytelling merit to that idea because I know that I've been in that place before when I was uh a young man, where I was um uh infatuated with a potential lover who um was a very wonderful person in a lot of ways, but the version of her that I was infatuated with, one that I kind of created, at least partially in my head, it wasn't who this human being really was, and so that affected the way that I thought about who she was and who I thought we could be together. Um, so I think you know, Mallory, that's a great point that feels very applicable. Um, I I it's still just a thing that like, and again, it's maybe it's like the slightly mattered formalist style of this, that I just I don't I don't get that same kind of human relationship. The themes and the ideas are there, I'm just not feeling it through the performances and the way that it's presented. I think that's weird.
SPEAKER_02I yeah, I feel like I'm I'm in the same boat with you on that side, in terms of like if you were to narrow it down to like the question you originally asked me about Leonardo getting pissed off and he loses cool, and even if it is as as Mallor saying too, like you see the nakedness of old money and new money, and that like it's very passionate and less propriety, all those different things. That scene is supposed to be very, very intentional and that moment very pivotal, and it kind of passes, and it's like, okay, that was it. And I feel like that's happening through the entire movie. Like, was this supposed to be really impactful? I guess so. I guess it was. I could see on a narrative like let me break it down why it's impactful. Okay, I can see that. Do I feel it in the moment? Not in the least, right? It just brings down one thing that just came to mind.
SPEAKER_00I'm sorry, we're I would divert a little bit from what we were just talking about. It just struck me as really strange. I don't know again how this is styled in the source material because I haven't read it in over three decades, but it did strike me as a little bit funny that Toby Maguire apparently is just spending a whole lot of time in this doctor's office, right? Because every time we see him like writing his memoir, you know, writing his version of the story, telling his version of the story, he's in this doctor's office. I'm like, how much free time does he have? Just go hang out at this doctor's office.
SPEAKER_02Well, he's got the doctor's got to water his plants and he's got to have a well what's that doctor's hourly rate?
SPEAKER_00Like, holy cow! Anyway, that doesn't really matter. It just struck me as amusing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, uh Mallory's saying it was it was basically a sanitarium. Um, but still, I mean, doctors do have responsibilities as other patients as well. Like, but I I also feel like, and maybe this is being unfair, but I feel like this movie puts me in the same position I've been in, a lot of positions with certain blenders, certain companies, and the cigars.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_02So be like, okay, this cigar, it has these notes and these notes, and so I'll light it up. And I'm like, this is just it's very bland. It's like getting that like really shiny, silky looking Connecticut cigar that has not much flavor, and it's like the beauty is in the subtlety, and it's like, okay, I'm not gonna lambass this cigar. I will say though, this cigar does nothing for me. I get that felt while I was watching this movie. So I'm not here to say the story of Great Gatsby sucks. I'm saying that uh this is not a story that I would enjoy, and I don't necessarily think this was the right director to tell that story.
SPEAKER_00Oh, maybe. I don't know. I I I I think that you know, with the kind of refrain and the critique that I'm giving, is that um I think for me at least I would have liked, probably preferred a version of this uh movie where the um storytellers took bigger risks in terms of adapting it for screen than what this one did. Even with all of Baz Lerman's zany visuals and doing the anachronistic music and all that kind of stuff, there's still that sort of seemingly formalistic structure, uh, I assume taken from the the source material that keeps me a little bit at arm's length from the emotional drama.
SPEAKER_02So, yes, I would agree. And I think the the last side note that this movie does, and I felt it watching it 12, 13 years later, it dates it pretty hard. Oh, yeah, like like the music choices and all those like good choices, but yeah, you just dated yourself pretty poorly.
SPEAKER_00Uh, I I mean for contrast, I mentioned this in our um uh review episode where we talked about uh our favorite movies from I think 2024. And one of mine was this uh movie called Past Lives, which was not exactly the same story as this, but was nevertheless about a romance that almost could have been but didn't. And the stylistic approach in that is so bare bones and humanistic and simple, and lets the actors really kind of do a lot of the work with letting you feel what they're thinking and going through that I felt way more connected to what was going on with those characters, even with all the faults and uh uh assumptions and you know bad faith stuff that they brought to the potential relationship. Um, you know, that's my kind of you know tragic love story. This, I think, just by the nature of the way that it's styled, is not quite my cup of tea.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. No, I would agree. I would agree. Uh moving on from that though, Jason says, I have to say this cigar is a home run, very which I think is a great segue and a great prompt into kind of talking the final flavor notes before we vote on both Great Gatsby and Blue Lightning Sky. Um, I would say that this cigar, what it accomplishes in flavor and in profile, I honestly think this is what Paul Stulak's profile needed, like his profile needed.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_02I say that in a way of like, because I had mentioned a lot of broadleafs, a lot of Maduros, having this as another side to show because Stulak doesn't have a Connecticut, he's got a Habano. Um, I wouldn't say this is as strong as some of his other blends, but it's definitely up there. But we just get to see another side. Um, as much, I would even say this goes above for me, my palette, like the white blight and blinding light, um, maybe even Phantasma. It's it's up there, it's a great cigar.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think that I probably inclined to agree on all accounts. Um, and I as far as the profile of this goes, it's not so. I mean, like I said at the beginning, you know, it's a punch of flavor, but I don't think that's there's anything here that's so overbearing that this couldn't be um, you know, your first cigar of the day. Like maybe with a morning with coffee, you could weigh in on what you think about that. But like if I was gonna light this up in the afternoon, sure, it's a punch of flavor, but like I feel like it would it would it would suit me for that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_02Um, but no, I would agree. In fact, I've even done that, like in the beginning, uh like starting off the day with it. It is a great anytime cigar, and it has enough going on late evening as it is, that it's like the perfect way to end it. So um, okay, so let's rate from a scale from one to ten uh the Paul Stu Lak Blue Lightning Sky where this cigar lands. There we go. That's true. I have a we've got an 8.5.5. If you guys are listening, uh, or if you guys are watching, check out Blue Lightning Sky. It's a cigar worth trying. All right, uh, so Great Gatsby on a scale from one to ten. Where does this movie end?
SPEAKER_00Well there's nothing that's aggressively bad about this, you know. I think that broadly the performances are pretty good. It's not my favorite in the story in the world, but it's not like a terrible narrative or either. Mallory uh did uh us a lot of favors by uh you know bringing up some of the thematic ideas and and structural things, like you know, there's there is something going on with this, but I I still just feel too at arm's length to the emotional drama, and uh for that I can't give it any more than a six.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, we're we're straight on the money.
SPEAKER_00Hey, look at that.
SPEAKER_02Um almost got a five. I was about to write five, uh, but I feel like we're kind of getting into strongly dislike territory on that. Um, I just don't like this movie. I don't really want to watch it again. Um and yeah, it was very it's too removed for me to invest in. And again, nothing to take away from the book. Is this really a movie that needed to be made? I would argue no. But maybe not. There you go. All right, so next week we are not talking about a movie. We actually uh are gonna be talking, criticizing, and investigating and maybe applauding the Oscars this year. So a lot of interesting conversation. We'll talk about the nominees, uh, what won. We we did it last year. I think it's a great way to have conversation. I'm not a big Oscars person, but I will say this is the first time in my entire life I actually watched it this year.
SPEAKER_00Oh, really? You know, this is the first, this was the first year in quite a few that I didn't watch them.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00Uh partly because my schedule that day was kind of all over the place. But my my wife and I cut the cord on cable, you know, whatever you want to call it, terrestrial TV, uh a while ago, and all the options for like streaming this thing live while it was playing sucked. So we're just like, all right, whatever. We're done. I'll catch, I'll catch the recap on YouTube.
SPEAKER_02Well, no one got slapped, no one got false and then taking it away. So there you go. Um, but cool, yeah. So we're next week we're gonna be talking about that. Uh, thank you guys for joining us tonight for Great Gabspe. Finishing the investigation into some of Leonardo DiCaprio's films. Um as I said, it wasn't as horrible as I thought it was gonna be because I'm not as big as fan. So yeah. Um, but thanks so much, Curtis, for jumping on, smoking a cigar, talking about that, and we will see you guys next week for talking about the Oscars.
SPEAKER_00See you next week, old Spot. Mm-hmm.
