Cigars and Cinema Podcast
Every cigar is smoked in thirds: First third, second, and final, just as every Movie is performed in three acts. Join Eric Drazin and Mike Coleman to delve into the world of cigars and movies as they analyze, break down, and critique cigars and films as each progress.
Cigars and Cinema Podcast
"Star Wars Series: The Sequel Trilogy" Ep. 108 5/21/26
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Week Three of our Star Wars obsession, and both Eric and Curtis tackle the last trilogy of the Star Wars franchise, the Sequel Trilogy. Let's see how we can get through it! Join us with our special selection cigar, the El Mago Renegade.
LINK: https://oakglentobacconist.com/product/el-mago-renegade-box-press-5-5x56/
Sign up for the OGT Cigar Society Subscription
https://oakglentobacconist.com/product/ogt-monthly-subscription/
Welcome back to another episode of Cigars and Cinema. Grab a cigar, something to pair it with, and let's journey into another episode of Smoke and Screen. Today's episode of cigars that's some is coming through from the ODT cigars side. I have a three of custom cigars at an undeniable fight. Join the community and smoke with us on the Oakland Tobacchinist YouTube channel as we delve into the written experience of OT Craft Cigars and many cigars and vitolas custom made just for our membership. If you're interested and if you want to find out more about the subscription and the whole host of DT cigars, visit us at www.com or find us on social media platforms like Instagram and TikTok at OGT Cigars. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Cigars and Cinema Podcast. If you're joining us uh tonight, we're in our third installment into the series of Star Wars and all that it basically touches now, because it's a vast world.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02If you're joining us for the first time ever and you are unfamiliar, this is the podcast where we smoke cigars, unabashedly commentating, in some cases, giving extreme opinions on film and entertainment. As usual, uh coming to you from the East Coast, North Carolina. I'm Eric with OGT Cigars. And coming from the West Coast, the other side of the country, Curtis Bailey uh in California. Curtis, thank you for joining me tonight.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, man. Uh, but I'm sorry, I'm afraid I have to correct you with what you were just saying there, because I know you that you think you've been a host of this show. I know you probably even think that Mike Coleman was the host of the show, but I am all the hosts. Me the whole time.
SPEAKER_02Oh no. Yes, we've got a lot to talk about. Uh and uh in talking about that tonight, we have been going through the trilogy series of trilogies of that being first Star Wars and how they've impacted the Star Wars game. Uh, we also have a great cigar to smoke tonight, a lot to talk about. Um, I think it's gonna be interesting. I don't know, I don't know your thoughts going into this, Curtis. I'm a little apprehensive, but at the same time, I think it's gonna be interesting.
SPEAKER_00I'm glad that you picked a really good cigar for tonight. Let's put it that way.
SPEAKER_02There you go. There you go. Okay, so uh I see we got a comment as well. RJ, thank you for dropping down the comments. Uh, I encourage you, if you're watching, let us know what you are enjoying tonight, what are you smoking tonight, maybe even if you're pairing something, uh, or your own thoughts on this next trilogy we're gonna be talking about. I'm sure you have them. I don't know if you are a Star Wars fan. I don't know how you couldn't have thoughts on it. Um, but it's a lot to talk about. So let's see here. We got RJ saying, hello, Eric and Curtis. Tonight I went to the bottom of the humidor and I'm smoking a pulse do like blue lightning along with some crystal light iced tea. Pretty hot here in Philadelphia.
SPEAKER_00Oh, he's in Philly. Well, if you're out and about on the streets of Philly and you find someone that looks very similar to this, I have a fraternal twin brother that lives in Philly right now.
SPEAKER_02Nice. Wait, wait, is this the same brother from the Virgin Ice?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they they they they sold that place on St. Thomas. Oh, you're done with it.
SPEAKER_02So okay, and they traded it for Philadelphia. Yep. Wow, okay, awesome. Well, tonight we're gonna be smoking a really cool cigar. This is the Renegade by El Mago. Uh, this is an excellent, excellent blend. I don't want to like already jump the shark and say, like, oh my gosh, I love this cigar, but I do. It's one of the newest additions to the humidor. Uh, this is one of the more defining ones that brought in El Mago. Uh, so the El Mago Renegade is a box press released in one size, five and a half by 56. Uh, it has a Mexican San Andreas wrapper over a Nicaraguan Corojo and Nicaraguan fillers. Now, I've smoked this cigar. Curtis, what about you?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I've had one so far. But I you're right. We're we're probably giving away the farm a little bit. It's it's I'm looking forward to this tonight.
SPEAKER_02Nice. Yeah, and so uh, like I said, this is one that I've really enjoyed from El Mago. Uh, I've enjoyed pretty much the whole portfolio, but I'm excited to jump into this, smoke this, because I think uh, like you were saying, it's gonna be a good antidote for what we have to talk about.
SPEAKER_00Indeed.
SPEAKER_02So uh let's go ahead. What say you we get a cold draw going and we uh start this thing off?
SPEAKER_00Also, just construction-wise, there's like some crisp edges on this box press.
SPEAKER_02There is, which yes, I think is really cool. And I I mean I've said this before. Um, I've been a huge fan recently of the five and a half box press size. Um we the Naysayer had it, the uh Midnight Ride had it, and it's just I really like it a lot. Yeah.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_02So on the cold draw, I'm actually getting almost like pears.
SPEAKER_00Interesting. Yeah, I think I could see that. Yeah, yeah. Pear pears for me are one of those fruits that have just kind of like what I describe as like a dull sweetness, is because there's I don't think they have a lot of uh uh acidity or tartness. Yes. Yes, and uh yeah, so that sort of you know, really straightforward, I guess, fruit flavor. Yeah, you could put that in the pear category. It's interesting. Maybe a little bit of like that stereotypical tea flavor, too.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. Some of that tea. Yeah. Okay, well, let's get this lit up and see where it starts. Right. Every cigar leaves an impression.
SPEAKER_00However, it's not until you take a moment and analyze the full experience from construction to flavor to profile that you can truly appreciate it.
SPEAKER_02So enjoy your cigar as you light it up. Take the time to toast it, smell the room notes, and experience the first notes as they come alive.
SPEAKER_00In the same way, movies can tell deeper stories or show us things we haven't noticed on the surface. So journey with us as we take a more detailed appreciation for the craft of cigar and movie making.
SPEAKER_02Okay, just getting this lid up here.
SPEAKER_00That's really good. Um I feel like the the what I pick up immediately is like a nice, strong, like really flavorful, almost like the crust of a really good slice of bread. You know, like those artisanal loaves or whatever you want to call them. Nice and that hard crust on the outside that's packed with flavor. Um, I get that. There's definitely a um kind of high note that's a uh a spice of some kind, it might be pepper or uh, you know, even you know, like uh uh making me think of cayenne or yeah, there's also an aromatic component too, so maybe ginger would be a thing you could say that it's similar to a lot of stuff going on, and I would say in terms of sensation-wise, and I've talked about this before with El Mago, and I find it literally in every cigar that they do.
SPEAKER_02I feel like it's part of their signature. I mean, every cigar maker I feel like has a signature flavor, it causes my palate to really like salivate. Um, it's got this like juiciness to it. Um, that I just I don't see in a lot of cigars, especially ones of this like strength. I wouldn't say this is crazy mild, I wouldn't say it's crazy heavy, but it's it's in that medium plus range. Um, and you get some of those like spicier notes, heavier hitting notes, but it's not always something that's going to be like I don't know, that kind of like sweet salivating as well. I find it a really excellent layer on a cigar like this.
SPEAKER_00I agree. And you know, we'll probably follow through on this as the show goes on, but like so far everything feels nicely balanced too, which I always weigh into.
SPEAKER_02And I will say too, on the cold draw, it wasn't the most open of draws, but like as soon as I lit it up, it seemed to like basically open itself, and the stroke production is like perfect as it is right now. So we put this in the OGT Variety Club. Um, this is a sort of shot of what the variety club was this month. If you want to smoke every cigar that we are enjoying on this podcast, make certain you join the OGT Variety Club uh so that you can get these and enjoy them at the same time as the podcast. Now, I will say this renegade is in the membership. Um, it's a $17.50 cigar. So it is not one of those like budget sticks at all. I'm super happy that El Margo worked with us to get it into the variety pack. Um, but it's definitely, I would say, out of the portfolio going through it a few times, it's definitely one of my more favorites that they offer.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, I can see why, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so tonight we talk about the final trilogy of Star Wars. Um, but I think maybe I should I should apologize because we had promised, I think there was a bit of confusion. We had promised that we'd go three weeks straight of doing Star Wars movies and Star Wars trilogy in this series. Somehow we ended up here tonight. What I'm gonna say is not Star Wars. So sorry, sorry that we're ended up here, but that's what's gonna be taking up our conversation going forward, and that is the sequel trilogy, uh, which is made up, of course, of Force Awakens, Last Jedi, and the rise of Skywalker. Many, many thoughts on this. I certainly hope Jason or Nick jumps on as well, talk about this, but heck yeah. Uh, what what about you, Curtis? What is your initial thoughts about this trilogy? Uh, what works, what doesn't work on a broader scale, right?
SPEAKER_00Um, well, I mean, like I the main takeaway when you look at the whole thing is that um these are three films that are kind of in conflict with each other, and yes, uh uh that's a bummer. And you know, I don't think that it was necessary for them to have like planned out the whole thing ahead of time, you know, because that can bring its own problems too in the process of making it, but it does feel like there was some kind of um uh ideological divide between the various filmmaker groups that they didn't figure out a way to reconcile across the stories because not only is there um you know sort of plot weird plot undulations, but there's also um uh thematic intent changes that yes ping back and forth when you go across all three of the films, so that's not incredibly satisfying. Um obviously we've talked last Jedi to death. I'll try to keep my uh efferv uh uh uh admiration for that movie to a minimum today because we've already done a lot of talk about that. Um, but uh you know, if I delete everything that I know and rewind to 2015 when Force Awakens came out, um you know, I was I was excited to see it. You know, the trailer looked kind of promising. Um and even after seeing it and knowing that you know it was basically a plot retread of a new hope, I was still kind of like that was fun, like it's yeah, the tone and I still enjoy watching that movie because I think it's pretty pretty good with the humor and just like the fast-paced uh uh the character interactions and stuff like that. Like a lot of that really works for me, but it's not the bravest movie in the world, it you know, it's a little uh um you know, copycatty and like they couldn't figure out how to do a new Star Wars movie without just recreating the Rebels versus Empire paradigm, right? Right. Um and that's a problem that ends up you know kind of polluting the other films, uh, in a way, because like like what that's that's the premise we have to run with it now. Yeah, so um, you know, my life isn't ruined by you know uh a couple of bad Star Wars movies, you know. I it's uh you know making art is hard, like you know, I I get it. Um, but you tease in the intro to the show that sometimes we give extreme opinions. I have extreme opinions about the final film of this drill. Yes, so yes, that's my that's my overall thing. Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_02No, I would say for broad strokes for me, uh, this really misses the mark. Not only I think you make really, really good points, and they need to be said about how much these three films are in war against each other, um, and how there is not enough through line. And we know, of course, like a lot it has to do with the hand change of JJ Abrams to Ryan Johnson and back to JJ Abrams and all these concepts, whether or not the concepts were great in the first place. I will say what I want to add to that too is the characters in this trilogy are not compelling enough for me. Um, enough for me to invest, if you add it up, I don't know, seven, eight hours of film time. Um, and I think we've probably talked about this before, but the reason that the original is the original and it's so good is because of the humanistic, hilarious sincerity, I guess, of some of the characters. Um that's missing. This is this is infused with too much Avengersism to for me in this. Um, and even characters that I wanted to really invest in. Kylo Wren is a great example of that. I probably said this before. Kylo Wren's character makes no sense to me by the end of the film. Right. We waste so much screen time on him ping-ponging back and forth and back and forth, where he doesn't really even get an opportunity to like literally breathe and be like, I'm gonna be my own character who's gonna do X, Y, and Z. Yeah. Um, and that's just one of them. So the characters have a major problem for me. Uh Force Awakens, likewise. Americ came out at Christmas time. We saw it like between Christmas and New Year's week. Um, and I was excited too. In fact, I remember getting out of the theater and being like, Wow, I think there's a chance for this.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, but I think there is a little bit of, you know, you go to the theater for the first time and there's a lot of kind of stars in your eyes. And then when you really think about it, you watch it again, you're like, ooh, actually, this was a problem. I agree. So I think it dealt with that. Um, you're right with Last Jedi. We have argued about that. I think that is one of the more funny conversations on the show that will continue on forever. Um, but yeah, we really haven't had the opportunity to dissect Force Awakens or much less Rise of Skywalker. So I'm excited to see where that's gonna go. Yeah, for sure. Um, okay, so look who just dropped in. Hello there. Yeah, uh, Kylo made no sense at all, according to Nick. Nick, I was hoping you'd be on tonight because uh yeah, this is a conversation I feel like you should be in on, as well as Jason. Uh, so anyone else drop their comments. What do you think of the sequel trilogy? Um, let's first look at the whole three movies. What would you how would you rate them from best to mediocre to worst?
SPEAKER_00Uh well, obviously Last Jedi, I think, is the best of the three, then Force Awakens, and then somewhere in the recesses of the basement is Rise of Skywalker.
SPEAKER_02So I I I would say Force Awakens, I think, is the best of the three. Um, I honestly I maybe Last Jedi is a little bit above. The only way I could rate that or put it into a sentence is that Andrew hadn't seen uh the last one, and we were gonna watch it. So we were like skipping through Last Jedi. So I was like, I don't know if I can do this again. And I was like, believe it or not, I was like, from what I remember, Rise Skywalker, I think is worse. Like, that's how I'll rate it. And I saw it in the theater before seeing it again this weekend, and that was the last time I saw it. So it had been, I don't know, seven years, no, six years, that's right, something like that.
SPEAKER_002019.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so almost seven years. Um, wasn't long enough. Wasn't long enough. Um but but I would say, okay, so aside from how horrible this trilogy is to me, I will say Force Awakens. I enjoy some of the elements, but one of its key problems, and you can find this throughout the entire trilogy, is score musical score. Aside from Ray's theme and the normal Star Wars theme, it's like non-existent in this trilogy, it's such a travesty.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, um, uh, and I don't know if that was the product of um, you know, uh Williams starting to kind of you know run out of fresh ideas for this um uh series, which would be completely fair. I don't say that as a criticism. I mean, dude is in his 90s and he's been doing this job for decades, so like you know, it to keep up the level of you know relative quality that dude has put done in his career is virtually unheard of. So, you know, whatever. But you know, I don't know if like the the what the interaction with each of the directors was like as far as like requesting particular you know tones or moods or whatever for music. I don't know. I do agree with you. I like Ray's theme, I think it's the strongest of the new motifs that we get in this whole trilogy, right? Um, but uh I can't pick out anything else, and that's even from the movie that I love, The Last Jedi. I break just nothing, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And and I feel like we had to bring it up because we talked about like Duel of Fates, we talked about the the Empire March, like all these things that also add so much richness.
SPEAKER_00Um, yeah, well, and that's the the thing is that like if you really look at the uh the first two trilogies that we uh already covered, um, they each have their own identity, and a big part of that is this the score.
SPEAKER_02Yes, 100%. 100. I I honestly after Rise of Skywalker, I was like, suddenly Phantom Menace looks really good right now. Yeah, uh Nick says, 687 is my lineup. Last Jedi is the best non-Star Wars film made. If Last Jedi was a World War II movie, it would have worked.
SPEAKER_00687. I thought 789. Where's number nine? Or is did is he did he put number nine in in first place? Oh I'm gonna have words, uh, or maybe he just left nine off because he's like, No, I don't want to do return to Jedi is actually part of this.
SPEAKER_02Oh, none of them are Star Wars movies. Uh Angel Star saying, Hello, Eric Curtis. Do you both think Keanu Reeves would play a great Darth Raven? And if you both watched Maul Shadow Lord, do you think that the pink Twilight Devon will become Darth Talent?
SPEAKER_00Well, that's that maybe is like a preview for what we're gonna be talking about in next week's show, which is Star Wars spin-off stuff.
SPEAKER_02Um, we're just we're going all the way.
SPEAKER_00We're that's right, it's a whole month plus of Star Wars. You guys are gonna be sick of it by the time we're done, and we probably will too. Um unfortunately, I have not delved into a lot of the that stuff. Uh, I know a lot of it is just not gonna be for me. There's a lot of it that I obviously just intentionally don't watch. Um, Darth Revan, if I remember correctly, was the villain slash like first person character from uh uh Knights of the Old Republic, which was a Xbox video game uh about 20 years ago. I know I'm incorrect about that. Please correct me, but I think that's who that they're that that uh person was referring to. Um, sure, I guess Keanu Reeves is cool. I like him. I don't know if he would be the person that I would pick for that, but um well at this point, I'm kind of at this point, I'm kind of like, okay, Star Wars, whatever. Go go off. You're obviously you don't care anyway, so just whatever.
SPEAKER_02If the if that happened in a Star Wars movie, he'd like show up to like Yoda and be like, I'm gonna need a lightsaber. Uh uh, let's see here. We got uh Saludos amigos uh from Miami Lakes. Well, thanks for joining us from Miami. Uh Nick says, I agree, music was missing in the film. I wouldn't say Williams lost it, I think it's because he wasn't allowed to see the film as see the film, as I believe for the OGs in the prequels, he was allowed to see the scenes first. Interesting.
SPEAKER_00Okay, I don't know about that. I mean, scoring it as I understand it is generally done with the orchestra in a room where they are literally have the film displayed in front of the conductor so that he can time stuff to the score. I don't know how you do it any other way.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and then he follows up by saying, Sorry, yes, I was thinking seven, nine, and eight.
SPEAKER_00Nine above eight, that's insane.
SPEAKER_02I mean, okay, I don't I think I would still be seven, eight, nine, but I understand where Nick is coming from. I still have so many problems with Last Jedi, Crystal Critters being one of them.
SPEAKER_00All right, well, I we've been dancing around it for a while. Let's just we we need to talk about this thing, okay. So here's here's my deal with uh uh Rise of Skywalker. This movie sucks. It does. Okay, and with you, it's it and it sucks in multiple ways. Uh on on a personal level, I'm annoyed at the way that it's discarded what I thought were the good ideas that were set up by um uh the uh last Jedi. Stuff like raised parents or nobodies, right? You know, I think we to discuss in our show about that why I think that's a valuable, important thing to try to reclaim for Star Wars. And so, you know, just do away with that. Um So and then also bringing Pal Palpatine back, you know, um uh because by killing the Emperor type character in uh Last Jedi, we could go into the third film without having to copy that paradigm. They could have done something new that still felt like Star Wars, but meaningful in how Ray and Kylo kind of resolve this sort of dysfunctional uh relationship that they have where they identify a lot with each other, but they also have ideological divides. You could have done something really interesting with that, but they didn't. Um but even if, like, the I those those personal issues that I have about how it kind of just really trashes what I thought were the good things about The Last Jedi, even if you just take that out of the picture, this is still not a well-made movie, no, because it uses a lot of really hokey, uh like fetch quests, like we gotta find this magic artifact and go do this thing, and then again with the Palpatine thing with him saying it was really me the whole time, just ruins the dramatic uh uh impact of all of those previous stories. Uh, you know, it's just there's almost nothing that I like about this movie. I think that uh on almost any avenue that you look down it, it's yes, it's not it's not, it doesn't, there's there's very little artistic merit there. And but like I I can't express enough like how craven I think this movie is. It's so cowardly. Yeah, like the you know, fans complained about the moment where Luke throws the saber over his shoulder in uh Last Jedi, but that was making it like a specific character point about where he was, whether you liked where he was or not, fair. Like, I get that, but like that it was it it mattered to that story, and then this one Luke shows up like almost like like staring directly into the camera and apologizing to the fans. No, really, the lightsaber is actually important, right? Safeguard it or like whatever. I can't remember what dumb dialogue he has. It's just so it's it's barely a movie, it's basically like a big apology to the the the fans that hated the previous movie, and that's so lame.
SPEAKER_02Well, and I I no, I completely agree. I think that um it really feels like, especially how these films end, or at least let's take the Snoke situation in the second one, and then Palpatine, it's basically the same exact mirror of Return of the Jedi. Yeah, I I'm gonna overpower you, strike me down, you gotta turn, blah blah blah. But it really feels like JJ Abrams was like, No, no, no, guys, I can do it better. Watch. Well, I'll do it this way. Ryan Johnson didn't do it the right way, so I'll just give you the same thing with a different spectacle. Instead of red, it's blue, and we're gonna do recreate the same scene. Yeah, on top of that, if you trace the plot line of Rise of Skywalker and where they have to go and all the side quests and all the side missions, they didn't have to do any of it. They could have just asked Conehead Droid. Conehead droid could have been like, Oh, yeah, by the way, this is what happened. They're they're in Exegol. Okay, and apparently, you can smash a wayfinder that leads you to the Sith with your hand, you can't burn it up in the tiefighter. There's so many problems like that, but I honestly feel like that is the through line of this entire series. So much of it is that why are we doing this? And I have a similar, I know we've talked about it before, but similar complaint with Last Jedi. So much of the rebels, aside from Ray, their plot line is we ran out of gas, we should have stopped by Arco and we couldn't make it, so now we got to go side quest casino and like let a bunch of horses free. So much of it is that we don't need any of this, so much is filler, so much is explained.
SPEAKER_00Um, I look, I I will I'll just touch on this briefly because we are we already talked it to death. I I understand having issues with the plot mechanics of those bits from the second film, uh, but each of them serves a very clear character function as far as okay testing the individual characters, you know. Um uh Finn is only in this whole thing because he likes and cares about Ray, and that gets tested when he goes to the uh casino planet because he figures out that you know just trying to hang on to that leads to split loyalties and betrayal and failure, right? And same thing with the other characters. So I still defended on those merits, but okay, I understand like the the mechanics of how those worked in the plot were not your favorite thing, like I get it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, and in Rise of Skywalker, multiple times it's brought up that Finn has something really special to tell Ray because he didn't have time to tell her. By the time we get to the movie, we never learned what it was, they just forgot and moved on.
SPEAKER_00Like, yeah, and I think I heard after the fact that it was supposed to be him saying he thinks he's force sensitive or something like that. I think that's what it was supposed to be.
SPEAKER_02All right, yeah. So you also deal with multiple like I think one of a really difficult moment is when they're like, Okay, so C3PO can find the map to the sixth place, but we've got to wipe his memory. So he has this montage of I have one last look at my friends, corniest lines ever. I know, and then they're like, actually, send him back to R2, and he's back to normal. And it's like, okay, here's another 20 minutes.
SPEAKER_00That's that's that's another one of the cowardly things. This movie twice tries to fake character deaths, you know, because essentially, uh, with 3PO, wiping him his memory would be the same thing as like the character doesn't exist anymore, and then they do it with Chewy, they try to make you think that Chewy got killed, right? And it tells me that JJ Abrams wants the um emotional impact of losing characters, which I would be on board with. Like, if you want to kill people off, like that, you know, in uh stories where characters are always in conflict, that should happen, probably, right? Like with Qui-Gon. But it also tells me that he didn't want to actually commit to that. So he's like, All right, I'm gonna let you feel those feelings for five minutes, and then whoops, ha ha ha ha ha ha, they're actually alive, it's fine, and it's so dramatically inert, it's cheap. There's zero impact, and I feel like they're screwing with me when I see stuff like that. It's it's bad storytelling, just flat out.
SPEAKER_02It is, it is, and at the same time, we're we're supposed to have a lot of weight riding on Ray, Kylo Wren, maybe Poe and Finn to some degree. Um, I just really couldn't care less about the struggles that they go through. They do the whole Ray thing where it's basically Luke's Dagaba scene where she sees herself and she has to fight herself. Yeah, zero tension. Never at any moment, I'm like, oh, what is gonna happen? Like, there's just no, it's just a mirror, I guess. It's a shadow of what it was.
SPEAKER_00Um, and then the like, you know, one of the last things that really pissed me off about this piece of garbage is they titled it Rise of Skywalker, and I was hoping that would mean something like uh uh, you know, between uh Ray and Kylo, they find some way to reconcile the worst parts of the Jedi and the best parts of the Sith into a new, more holistic thing in the that maybe you would call those Skywalkers. That I was like, that could be a pretty cool thing, and the movie has no such imagination whatsoever, uh because uh all it wants to do is um keep that name alive in the hero characters. So they show Ray go to Tatooine to bury the lightsabers uh at Luke's old homestead, and she names herself Skywalker. Here's the problem with that. She knew Luke Skywalker for a handful of days. Obviously, he was impactful, had a big impact on her, but you know, we learn from like the backstory in the third film that um she did a lot of her training and developing fully into a Jedi with Leia, and even though Leia's part of the Skywalker clan, that's not her last name. Her last name is Organa, right? And Ray has never been to Tatooine, she knows F all about that. She um uh grew up on a similar planet because again, they just copied it in the original film, right? So her going back to Tatooine and bearing the lightsabers there and naming herself Skywalker internally to the logic of the character makes no sense. No, it doesn't. They're doing it for us, they're doing it because we want to revisit the famous Tatooine place, and you can see the double sunset, and she names herself Skywalker, and we're like, Yay, clap like seals because they did the thing, and it's so again, it's so cowardly. Like, they it's like I can't imagine any other way to make people feel emotions about this Star Wars thing unless I just lean heavily on everything that came before, and that's so depressing to me.
SPEAKER_02Well, and on top of that, the lazy execution of making that happen just basically like solidifies what you're saying to that point. Instead of anything that's impactful that's happening, that you're like, Oh, I'm connecting the dots is what's happening. You have a strange random old lady, which you're not really supposed to be like walking out in the middle of the desert with Tuscan Raiders all over the place, just says, Who are you? and then you don't see her again. Like, who wrote who wrote that? And being like, Yeah, this is a seamless transition into how we want to end emotionally. It yeah, no, a hundred percent. Uh we have uh Nick saying, Cool lightsaber, though, which I have my own thoughts, but he also says, Rise a palpitate more like it, Texas Taurus. She's a palpatine, yeah. Yeah, um, I I couldn't care less about the orange lightsaber thing again. I think it's just fan fiction crap.
SPEAKER_00I at that at that point in the movie, I'm already super checked out. It's just like don't care.
SPEAKER_02Yes. So very quickly, let's take a brief pause to breathe and reflect on the cigar that we're having.
SPEAKER_00Hey, we promised extreme opinions.
SPEAKER_02I'm really getting a lot of good sweetness, and I to me feel like there's almost like a I I don't, it's not really citrusy, but it's almost like like tangerine, like okay background sweetness. I don't know if that makes sense. No, it does. It absolutely does. On a San and on a San Andreas cigar, it's not something I I would say I've ever gotten before. Yeah. But you get you get some of that, uh, a little bit of still that like cayenne that's on the the retro. Um good breadiness as well. I think what you were mentioning, it's still still in there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I feel like the retro hill brings in a sort of like almost um pleasant, uh bitter, like uh um leathery kind of character. Yeah, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, I could see that. And and I think too, you and I I think have an appreciation for notes of bitterness that's like not over bitter in cigars. I really feel it elevates it to like a complexity you don't find in a lot.
SPEAKER_00I agree, but also just you know, construction, smoke output, just the smoke experience has also been fantastic.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. The body like smoke texture on the cigar, it's silky, but it's also like powdery at the same time. I'm I'm really enjoying it. It it draws you in, it's not a casual cigar by any means, right? But it's really refined at the same time.
SPEAKER_00I agree.
SPEAKER_02Uh, Nick is saying, uh, no, her Sith lightsaber is what he was referring to. Uh, that was cool. Don't get me started on the yellow saber. So there you go.
SPEAKER_00Uh, while we're on the topic of lightsabers, another thing that annoys me in uh Rise of Skywalker, and I I need to say this is not unique to this movie. Lots of other fictional things that use swords do this, so it's not this movie's fault, but it's just hey, while we're trashing on it, let's go all the way. Um, I really hate when they do sword fights with that underhanded grip where the yeah blade is yeah, yeah, yeah. That's that ergonomically, that's not how swords are designed to be used. It looks bad, it looks weak, it looks cheap. I just everything about it is dumb. I hate it.
SPEAKER_02So on that, very quickly, I'll answer Chris's question. He just said, I just popped in. What are you smoking? Uh, is what we're talking about. This is the El Mago Renegade, uh, perfect San Andreas Maduro cigar. Really enjoying it. Check out El Mago cigars if you haven't had them. Uh, you will not be disappointed. It's a good smoke. Um, but yeah, I feel like you have the original trilogy that set up this concept of lightsabers, the spectacle of lightsabers, the color changes throughout the trilogy. It was all new, it was we nothing had like that had been done before, super cool. Right. Then we have the prequel trilogy that's like, let's elevate what sword play means with a Jedi and a Sith. Let's take it to the next level. And some of it's hokey, and some of it is awesome, some of it really works. Then you have this trilogy, and there is not like a single time where any of it is like to me inspiring or awesome to watch, it's just kind of there, it's very uh like blunt in in a lot of ways. A lot of it's just like throwing their sabers at each other, uh, with Kylo Ren like punching his side for some reason. I don't understand. Um, but yeah, this one in particular, like the lightsaber sword play in this movie, Rise of Skywalker, is amongst one of the worst, I think. I agree.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, um part of part of that has nothing to do with the choreography, although I was just complaining about that. Um, it's just that the the you know, you want the lightsaber fights, sword fights, whatever kind of fights in movies should have like plot stakes, right? Right. And I feel like in uh in Rise of Skywalker, they don't always, or at the very least, maybe they're at the service of a plot point uh that I think is very poorly conceived, like the um you know, this stuff that happens in the climax of the of that movie, you know. I just it's all at the service of a story that I think is already way off in the wrong direction. So why do I care about this fight?
SPEAKER_02You know, well, and you also like I think a Phantom Menace, okay? Uh one of the first like lightsaber to lightsaber duels we see is when Darth Maul tries to ambush Qui-Gongen in the desert as they're starting to take off. It's very exciting. He's on his like hover Harley uh motorcycle and he like jumps off and he starts fighting and it's like whoa whoa, what's gonna happen? You see the rising action when Kylo Wren shows up on the planet where they're finding the old Death Star and they're like show up and they have that lightsaber duel. For me, I'm like, okay, how long is this gonna take? That should not be your reaction when it comes to a lightsaber duel, of course. So I think that's like a big part of some of those issues. Um, what are your thoughts on I Am All the Sith, I am all the Jedi?
SPEAKER_00Um, well, like I said, that that that that idea of Palpatine really being the one behind everything, like you know, Snoke and whatnot. Uh I I've always hated that kind of storytelling, it's not unique to this movie. There's other stuff I've uh consumed that that does this, but for me, it just saps those previous stories and characters of their original dramatic impact, right? Those characters suddenly lose the unique identity and impact they had on the narrative, uh, because that's what we should be wanting, is like you know, as you travel through a story, you meet these different characters, they have identities and goals, and the things that they do reflect who they are and impact the story. And if you say that all of them were just really this one guy behind the scenes the whole time, I dramatically that's just so inert to me.
SPEAKER_02I don't I don't understand why people think that's a cool way to tell a story because right, it's just especially two when you when you try to you have two films, and again, Ryan Johnson, JJ Abrams, two different visions, but you have two films that are dedicated to okay, here's your next big villain, and it's explained away by one word I created Snoke and it's a pan, and you just see other clones like Snoke in a jar. That's it, that's all you get. It's not good.
SPEAKER_00Um, no, please go ahead. No, no, no, go ahead. Uh well, I mean, uh obviously I I we could trash on Rise of Skywalker for the next uh 20 minutes, and I'd probably have a good time doing that, but we should probably talk about Force Awakens too in a little bit more detail. Um, in particular, one of the things that stood out to me in that movie, um, and that I still like about it is that I think the first act does a pretty good job of establishing these new characters, you know, whether or not they get used well throughout the rest of the films, that's you know, a separate thing. But I like the way that we get to see behind the scenes of Ray's life. There's a lot of great show, don't tell, storytelling. We just learn about what her situation is by seeing her doing the scavenging and how she has to uh buy food. She sits outside of her little uh adat, you know, uh uh uh house and puts the helmet on and just looks kind of like super self-satisfied, sitting there eating her puffed up bread stuff, you know, like and we see her how sympathetic she is, you know, the way that she uh shows kindness to BB8 when you know she didn't have to. I I just like a lot of that stuff, and then also the way that uh just super old um uh uh adventure serial style, the way that uh Poe and Finn become fast friends and they're calling each other buddy inside the cockpit of that tie fighter, having a good time trying to escape. Like all of that is so fast and fun and works really well for me. And I think a lot of it uh kind of like maybe makes that movie better to me than uh the sum of its parts, with like how it copies the plot from yeah, you know, uh uh uh New Hope and all that kind of thing. So I I really like a lot of that stuff in Force Awakens, but what do you think?
SPEAKER_02Well, yeah, no, I think in terms of its high points, moments like that are gonna be the closest thing we can feel to Star Wars in this trilogy. Um, it because it's it's it's same but not same. I feel like a TIE fighter getaway is at least it is playing in the same ballpark, but it's at least a little bit different. Um, I I do wonder about the I mean we we talked about how much of an issue of a wide universe it is, but it's all narrowed down to the Skywalker family. Um, similar type problems when it's like, oh, by the way, on this planet Jacku, that's not Tatooine, the Millennium Falcon is just hanging out in a hangar bay. It's like, okay, I'm gonna have trouble with that. I'm gonna have a problem with that. I also think um, and it's hard not to go like back to like the entire trilogy and follow the through lines, but it's like you have this Millennium Falcon's a hunk of junk, oh, but you still gotta love it for what it is. To later on in the movie, it can jump like hyper speed throughout like like a fast motor car, and it's just it's like what what what are we going with this? And it's um it had good moments. I think it also lost a lot since its first release. Sure, and maybe that's tainted by the other two movies. I don't know. Um, who do you feel like you can invest in, let's say, in terms of a character for Force Awakens? Is there anyone that you really are intrigued as the movie progresses to like follow their storyline?
SPEAKER_00Honestly, I really liked um the the three new heroes, uh Poe, Ray, and Finn. I I I was I was pretty on board with them. Uh a lot of that had to do with uh, you know, again, uh I think that movie does a relatively good job at mimicking the sort of fast matinee serial uh um uh uh sort of banter between the characters. Like there's I I think the scene where um Poe is trying to convince Ray that he's part of the resistance while she's trying to fix something on the ship down below the deck, and uh you know he's trying to get BB8 to help cover for him, and BB8 does a little flame thumbs up, you know, just stuff like that is super fun to me. And I think that those characters exhibit their per personalities pretty strongly in those those moments. So um generally speaking, I I was on board with those three characters. I was worried about Snoke when he was introduced. I was like, I don't know, I don't know about this guy, yeah. And uh I had mixed feelings on on Kylo Wren after the first movie, too. Um, but anyway, does that answer the question?
SPEAKER_02No, no, definitely. Uh, on on that with characters, uh Nick has a good point. He says, but again, fast and loose with the script, Poe was supposed to die of the tie crash, and he came up. Yeah, so for sure. Um, Kylo Wren's uh like visual, his design, and the the sound effects on his voice, I thought were cool. I was like, all right, we're we're going kind of Darth Vader-esque, but at the same time, he's got enough personality that's a bit different. And as the story progressed, instead of him becoming this threat, he became more of just a Nemo kid as by the time the movie was over. Um it did, I don't know. It and I I kept waiting in every single movie for Kylo Ren to do something, and unfortunately, I first glimpsed that in Force Awakens, and it just continued through the whole trilogy.
SPEAKER_00Um I don't think that the trilogy fully realized the potential of that character, but I actually kind of appreciate that uh aspect of him that you like you said, the emo kid thing, because um uh wayward uh wayward young men with violent tendencies that have um either uh uh issues around their Um, their father figures or um their own kind of uh impression of self-importance, those are the villains in our real lives, sure, sure. So I'm okay with Star Wars reflecting that, and um and uh you know, there's some fun stuff they do with him where you know he exhibits way more kind of out-of-control rage than uh we've seen from the Sith. Uh, because you know, Palpatine, uh even in the prequel trilogy, was a very measured calculating right character, and we get to see a different expression of a villain in this trilogy with Kyler being this sort of like trying to find his way loose canon kind of guy. Yeah, not everything works, but I like the intent.
SPEAKER_02No, and and I think that's more to the point is that I like that aspect of loose canon. We didn't really get to see it at its full magnitude. Like the biggest time we see it is when he's like, concentrate all fire on Luke at the end, yeah, on that. But why not actually do something that's so devastating that like when at one moment uh Ray is like you're a monster, and it's like, yeah, I don't really see it. Like, you haven't really demonstrated other than like, yeah, you killed Han, but it was done in a way that was still very just kind of I don't know, it wasn't loose-cannon enough, I guess, for me. And and I I wish they had like used it, and it never came. I feel like so. I also feel like uh for all the characters you bring back that are nostalgic, I feel like Chewy's kind of done dirty in this trilogy. Like the amount of people he loses and he gets two minutes to cry about it and then move on. Um, it's I don't know. Chewy's definitely an afterthought in this trilogy.
SPEAKER_00I feel like that's true too. Um uh obviously it's not the filmmaker's fault that um Carrie Fisher passed away while they were in the middle of making this trilogy. So I respect the difficulty uh that the creative team faced going into the third film, having to figure out how to you know use stuff that they filmed from the previous movie and cobble together things to like make her fit in the plot. Right. I don't really fault the movie for that, even though I don't think it works. Like, you know, that's so hard. Like, what do you do? Especially when you know, um Han was the prominent legacy character in the first film, Luke was the prominent one in the second film, and she was supposed to be the prominent one in the third film, and then you can't do that, so you know they get a mulligan on that for me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, what you have to do then apparently is have some side character from the first one say it's gonna take all of her strength to reach Kylo Wren. Just so you know, this is why she died. If you're a bit confused, um I think they should have just had like a droid come over and be like, She lost the will to live. But yeah, it's uh and I think too, probably why this is such a letdown is because you're carrying a lot of weight. You did so in the prequel trilogy because you have to explain Darth Vader's like Rise and Fall. In this one, you have to basically come to a conclusion that everyone's gonna be happy with all of these original characters, and unfortunately, it's a really heavy task, and I don't think anyone was up for the task, clearly.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and you know, I hinted at this earlier, but it's possible that a lot of the the issues that kind of unavoidably filter throughout this trilogy start with the fact that um you know the decision was made to basically just recreate the empire and the rebels and call them different things, first order rather than finding a new uh you know way to represent conflict in this story. And that that's probably like the original sin, maybe, of this trilogy that they just couldn't avoid, even with you know uh uh at least some quality attempts, right?
SPEAKER_02No, a hundred percent. Yeah, and I remember distinctly after seeing Forced Awakens in the theater, being like, you know, this trilogy might have the potential of being better than like what we were given with the pro prequels, yeah.
SPEAKER_00No, I agree. Um I I to to not be so like you know uh negative throughout the this episode, going back to Rise of Skywalker. There is one thing that I think is pretty good in that movie, and that's Babu Frick, the little like you know, computer code guy that's supposed to help them figure out what's going on with Three Pio. I think is the yeah he fits into the plot. That little dude was kind of cool, yeah. He's pretty funny. It's cool, puppet, like you know, I'm I'm I'm game for that kind of weird in my Star Wars, right?
SPEAKER_02No, 100%. I think I think it was good adding that on. Uh Nick's saying, and speaking of legacy characters wrongly utilized, they bring Wedge and Tilly's character and stick him in a turret instead of an X-Wing was a sin.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's very much a sin. Yeah, Wedge is a starfighter pilot par excellence. And oh, by the way, did you know the little factoid about him? The actor that plays him from that actor that plays Wedge in uh um the original trilogy. I don't remember. Did they did they actually bring him back for Rise of Skywalker? I didn't re-watch it.
SPEAKER_02He's got like a short cameo okay.
SPEAKER_00That guy's that guy's name is Dennis Lawson. He is Ewan McGregor's uncle.
SPEAKER_02Oh wow, I did not know that. That's cool. Yeah, well, and I think too, oh, I don't want to keep talking negative, but I remember this is a point I want to make also about Rise of Skywalker, is that they're trying to pull multiple themes seemingly within the last half hour of the movie that wasn't there for the rest of the trilogy. One of them being like, People will come, we will ignite the spark, and we will come. And the biggest thing is like when you when you go in, you're gonna fight this gigantic fleet that Palpatine just pulled out of his butt out of nowhere. He's like, I've got the biggest thing that now star destroyers can kill planets, that we don't need the Death Star, all that type of thing. And they're like, I guess no one is coming. It's like, look, if this was your plan, no one would come. Like, if you're an idiot, like how's this gonna happen? And then another tagline, they're like, We don't know how we're supposed to do this, and like Rose like turns and is like, but we hope. And Finn's like, Yeah, we hope. And it's like, What what kind of through line are you trying to draw? It's just not working, it was horrible.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, that's unfortunate.
SPEAKER_02Um horses riding on top of on top of Star Destroyers.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah. At that point in the movie, I'm already like I said, I'm already just kind of like, sure, go for it, whatever. Um we kind of brought this up when we discussed the um uh the original trilogy. Um, so I'm wondering if we can do like uh analogs here. I was asking questions like, you know, what's your favorite droid? What's your favorite starship? Across these three films, are there any of those characters or designs or just things, moments, whatever that you're like, you know what? I'm glad that that is in Star Wars now. That's cool.
SPEAKER_02I think that, and this will be like one of the one praises I'll give Last Jedi. Uh, I really do like Kylo Wren's ship. I mean, I know it's in Force Awakens, um, but the the scene at the end against the sunset with the ATs and that hovering in the back. I was like, that I think Star Wars did need that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it looks pretty cool. I agree. That's that's that's solid design.
SPEAKER_02I didn't care for the big ape arms on the the AT ATs, but yeah, I get that.
SPEAKER_00What about you? Um honestly, I'm a BB8 fan. I think he's cool. Yeah, like I said, in particular when they use him in fun ways, like that moment where he does the little flame thumbs up, he's got a little sassy attitude the way that R2 does, and obviously that's why he was designed, but I guess I'm just a sucker for that sort of thing. Okay, um, I think I think he's fun, cool. Uh, you know, um, little voice that they put on him too that has its own personality. I'm down for BB8.
SPEAKER_02Okay, I don't think that they could have used Kylo Wren's lightsaber. That that was done. Um, yeah, I would be somewhat hard pressed to find some like really stunning moments throughout this trilogy that I really thought was cool. I don't know, it's a hard question.
SPEAKER_00Uh uh well, obviously for me, there's a lot of them in uh Last Jedi. I love the holdo maneuver, you know, where she lightspeeds the ship through the the fleet, and that the way that that is visually and also orally, the sound design in that sequence I think is super cool. Um uh I like um there's that fight in the the the final uh planet, it's called Crate, I think, where it sort of mimics Hoth, right? You know, they're sort of borrowing from uh Empire Strikes Back, but rather than strictly recreating it and having it be another snow planet, it's a thing that visually evokes a similar feeling, but that as the battle goes on, we realize there's this red, like almost like gemstone like rock underneath. So it looks like the battlefield is bleeding as the fight progresses, and just visually metaphorically, I think that's super cool.
SPEAKER_02Okay, yeah, no, I could see that. Uh Nick is saying, I'm a fan of the new X Wings, not of the wings fully, but I like how close to the OG uh design and BB8 also as he was to the OG R2 design, as you were saying.
SPEAKER_00That tracks okay.
SPEAKER_02So, uh, how about we take a break and we talk about the final third of this renegade from El Mago?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um it's interesting because I feel like the more that this cigar has progressed, the sweeter it's gotten, which um I really do enjoy. Uh still putting out full like flavor and turns, like I said, that that like sweetness that's there, the breadiness that's there, a hint of bitter as you had mentioned. Yeah, um, just yeah, it's firing on all cylinders.
SPEAKER_00I I feel like I'm even more with you now on that sort of uh hint of citrus type flavor, like it combined with maybe the the bitterness or whatever else is going on there. I'm almost getting something that makes me think of the uh acidic bite of grapefruit.
SPEAKER_02Oh, okay. Yeah, I could see that. Um, yeah, which is a good additive on the end. So uh yeah, let's go ahead and rate this cigar for El Mago Renegade scale from one to ten. All right, got mine written down. 8.5 for me. 8.5 and an eight for me. Yeah, no, it's definitely in there. This is uh this is a cigar that I would continually seek out, not just put my humidor. Yeah, it's it's got some great stuff, so hats off and really good construction. I haven't touched this thing up once, which is kind of nice. Um, okay, and then looking at it all, I mean, I think our our thoughts are pretty clear. Um, unfortunately, the newest Star Wars trilogy, the sequel trilogy, I'm gonna say that the prequels were much better, which I didn't think was gonna be the case originally when this was coming out.
SPEAKER_00I I agree. Obviously, I love the middle film in this trilogy, but if you take the entire thing as a kind of single unit of Star Wars stuff, um the prequel trilogy is better. Yeah, it's it's more consistent, it tells a more uh cleaner story. It was brave in terms of how it changed things up with the design and feel of the universe. You know, it wasn't trying to uh you know, George Lucas did not care a single whit at all about trying to you know exactly recreate what he thought fans would want. You know, he's like, No, I'm I'm gonna go off in a different direction. So even though that trilogy is also ladled with problems, artistically, it's just more defensible, it has stronger merits.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, 100%. 100 nick nick is saying, uh, wait, not the same score, trying to trick us into thinking you don't coordinate verdicts on the cigars. Oh, first time in a while.
SPEAKER_00I know. I probably didn't get that extra half point because I was like, I have to talk about Rise of Skywalker.
SPEAKER_02This is the only spark that ignites the flame. Is this something? Okay, so next week we're gonna be talking about spin-offs. This includes like all forms of spin-offs from the new Darthmall cartoon to the Obi-Wan series to Mandalorian to even the Muppet special show with Luke Skywalker.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, I I I played some Star Wars video games back in the day, there's all kinds of stuff.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then after that, the much dreaded voyage to the theater to go see Mandalorian and Grogu. I don't want to watch this movie, but we are for the podcast, so yeah.
SPEAKER_00I well, and we'll we'll talk more about why as we discuss left like the Mandalorian TV show next week. But I also have lots of trepidation about this one. Yes, we'll see how it goes. 100%.
SPEAKER_02But thank you guys for uh joining us on week three of Star Wars, and we will see you guys next week. Check out the variety clubs, you can smoke along with us each and every week, and also El Mago. So thank you guys and have a great week. Thank you, Curtis, for jumping on.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
