Cigars and Cinema Podcast
Every cigar is smoked in thirds: First third, second, and final, just as every Movie is performed in three acts. Join Eric Drazin and Mike Coleman to delve into the world of cigars and movies as they analyze, break down, and critique cigars and films as each progress.
Cigars and Cinema Podcast
"The Structure Of Action Movies!" Ep. 110 6/11/26
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Eric and Curtis embark on a journey on the road of analytics. Join the Cigars and Cinema crew as they dissect movie genres, what makes a structure work, and what makes it fall apart.
This week, the crew delves into the world of action movies. There are countless films created in this genre, which will fall and which will remain tall?
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Welcome back to another episode of Cigars and Cinema. Grab a cigar, something to pair it with, and let's be journey into another episode of Smoke and Scream. Today's episode of Cigars and Celsius comes in from the ODT cigars side to a five at premium custom cigars each month and undeniable fight. Join the community and smoke with us on the Oakland Tobacchist YouTube channel as we delve into the written experience of OT Craft Cigars and many cigars and bipolarists custom made just for our membership. If you're interested and if you want to find out more about the subscription and the whole host of DT cigars, visit us at www.com or find us on social media platforms like Instagram and TikTok at OGT Cigars. Hello everybody and welcome back to another episode of Cigars and Cinema Podcast. Now, if you're joining us for the first time tonight or you've been following us for some time, thank you so much for joining us because we have a wonderful show tonight. If you're unfamiliar, this is the podcast where we smoke cigars, unabashedly commentating, in some cases, giving extreme opinions on film and entertainment. From the East Coast, coming to you from North Carolina, uh, I am Eric from OGT Cigars. And then on the West Coast, on the other side of the country, Curtis Bailey for Cigars and Cinema Podcast. Curtis, thanks for jumping on. I have been looking forward to this show tonight.
SPEAKER_01Me too. Um, uh, unfortunately, you know, I can't like really get into character or theme on this one. So this is gonna be the action that I'm engaging in.
SPEAKER_02What we I was expected to see like a green screen of like dodging bullets and explosions and Michael Bay, like helicopters happening in the back and all that sort of thing. That's right. So uh guys, we have a wonderful show tonight, and I see we have also our first comment. Thank you again for hanging out with us. Please drop down your comments. I will do my best to pull them up, whether you have your own opinion on what we're talking about, or just letting us know what are you smoking tonight? What are you enjoying tonight? Put it in the comments. So we got RJ on saying, hello, Eric and Curtis. Looking forward to the show tonight. I'm smoking a Stallone Alizantoro. Awesome cigar. Excellent. That it is excellent. Well, thank you so much, uh, RJ, for joining us. We also got Jason saying hello, guys, looking forward to tonight's show. As we are.
SPEAKER_01Jason, what's up?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, awesome. So uh we have a lot to talk about, but uh we also have a new variety pack to jump into. So Curtis uh kind of got the cigars ahead of most variety members because he had to get it on time for tonight's show. So I sent it out a bit early. If you guys are unfamiliar, this is our new lineup. Now, this is going to be known as the Maduro Madness Box because every cigar in this variety pack is a Maduro cigar, which I'm not sad about at all.
SPEAKER_01Same.
SPEAKER_02Um, it's a really cool lineup. Uh from left to right, we got lures, uh, brownie trout, uh, Nicaraguan Habano Maduro, which we'll be trying. The black label trading company Macab, the new San Andreas Limited. Um, skipping ahead to the Wahoo on the right, that is the Lure Newest Limited, and then the Bleak Midwinter 4, which we're kind of getting low on, but I had to put through the variety. But the one in the middle is the one we're smoking tonight. This cigar is shrouded in mystery, and I say that because unfortunately here at OGT Cigars, we are not allowed to disclose the factory or the blender for this cigar. Uh, I love the cigar so much, but I was told if I was going to pick it up, I cannot disclose where it comes from. Now, hopefully, as time goes on and the relationship with this factory gets cultivated, as I hope, we will see many more others coming from this factory. Um, it continues in the same process. We can't tell anyone. So we have dubbed the factory, we've given it a nickname known as the Shadow Factory.
SPEAKER_01Nice.
SPEAKER_02So anything uh coming forward, as you guys will know, if you try this cigar, let us know what you think. But there may be future releases coming from the shadow factory. So you guys at least know the blender is the same, whoever it may be. So I'm excited for it. Um, Curtis, I know you haven't smoked this yet. Um, so I'm excited to hear your thoughts on it. Right. Yeah. Um so really quick, just as a bit of background, it is a six by sixty box press figurado, to be honest. Uh, the gauge to me feels more like a 56 or a 54, but it's told it's a 60. We have called it chaos theory because it's kind of the concept of the butterfly effect, and that is, even though this may seem as a small thing, I think it will ripple into bigger things later on down the line. So super excited. Um, what say you we give this a cut and a uh cold draw?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Also, this is a super cool Vitola.
SPEAKER_02It is very, very unique, and I think a lot of the times 6x60 is kind of in these days polarizing, but it works in a box press like tapered version.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, in fact, I'm struggling to think if I've seen very many at all um cigars that are both have a taper, much less two tapers combined with those box press edges. That's unique.
SPEAKER_02It's really unique, yeah. As the way it follows. Now, I don't say the dry is good, it's not like crazy tight, but I do want to see even if it's gonna open up even more as the cigar continues because we're going all the way down on this pretty narrow end here.
SPEAKER_01I'm getting uh like that Hershey's baking unsweetened cocoa powder.
SPEAKER_02That that is crazy because I was like, if he doesn't say some kind of like chocolate aspect, there's chocolate on this cold draw. Yeah, awesome. How's your draw?
SPEAKER_01Uh it seems great so far. Good. I mean, obviously, you know, it's there's this little little tiny foot, so it I'm sure it will open up, but it doesn't feel like stuffy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, good, good, awesome. All right, well, we're gonna get this toasted and lit and pull up some comments when we come back. Every cigar leaves an impression.
SPEAKER_01However, it's not until you take a moment and analyze the full experience from construction to flavor to profile that you can truly appreciate it.
SPEAKER_02So enjoy your cigar as you light it up. Take the time to toast it, smell the room notes, and experience the first notes as they come alive.
SPEAKER_01In the same way, movies can tell deeper stories or show us things we haven't noticed on the surface. So journey with us as we take a more detailed appreciation for the craft of cigar and movie making.
SPEAKER_02All right, getting this lit. I'm getting a I'm not so much pepper spice right now. It's more of like almost like a figgy, like a jammy figgy feeling to it. Um it's just starting to open up as well as we're kind of getting through that taper end, and I find this a lot with perfecto's as it opens the the flavor notes open as well. What are you getting so far?
SPEAKER_01Um I'm trying to ascertain like a is this more a sensation or flavor, but there's there's a little something spicy going on. Okay.
SPEAKER_02And I think that it's starting to rise a little bit for me as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um there's also um uh sort of bready character that like is pushing into cake territory for me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I can see that. Also a little bit of raisins on the retro. Like there the cinnamon is coming through too now as the cigars open it up.
SPEAKER_01So um I'm hoping for a really strong uh complementary pairing experience tonight because I am drinking a compass box crimson casks, which nice is I mean, their description on here is spicy, uh sherried, and intense.
SPEAKER_02All right. So yeah, I mean it has some of those spices, but also sheried. Is that sherry cask? That's right. Okay, okay, so it has that little sweetness on the back end. Yeah, I'm wondering if that's gonna pull more sweetness out of the cigar or where that's gonna leave that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we'll see. There's also something else dancing on the top end that I can't quite figure out what it is that I think that I'm interpreting there. But you know, there's a lot of kind of like, you know, base notes, mid-tone kind of, but like there's like this little trebly thing that's like, hey, what's up? And I'm I'm trying to figure out what I think that is.
SPEAKER_02It it is crazy because mine is starting to burn through that like thinner edge, and then the smoke just opens up, the body smokens up, and also some of the flavor. Peppery notes are coming through, still some of that figgy jam, raisin-y element, but then that cakey consistency that you were talking about is also there for sure.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we're gonna get a lot of evolution on this one, I expect.
SPEAKER_02I'm not gonna lie, I've smoked quite a bit of these. Um, I'm very impressed. And again, even though it's undisclosed, I just I couldn't pass on it. I thought the cigar was pretty impressive. Did it work? Killer pairing. Nice. I saw that I saw your face as you as you took a sip afterwards. Hmm.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that one's gonna go in the Pantheon, I think. Holy cow! Nice, very nice, nice.
SPEAKER_02Okay, we got Daniel Frazier saying, hello fam, smoking a C4 by Viaje for the stream. Started off with a pepper bomb and has mellowed out. Nice, excellent. Uh Jason saying, Can't wait for my pack, which should be to you momentarily for sure. Uh, Chris is saying, Hey gents, started with Crimson Knights and now an El Pulpo Robusto with Buffalo Trace on the Rocks. Sounds like a great pairing. Yeah, nice. And then Jason said for tonight, he's going with an El Mago and an Negroni. Cheers. Um, you're gonna have to help me out, Jason or or Curtis. What is the traditional like recipe for a Negroni?
SPEAKER_01Negroni is a Negroni is an equal parts cocktail. I think in most formulations it's one ounce or maybe three quarters of an ounce, but it's um gin. Um uh can't I say the word? Kempari, which is a really bitter uh Italian uh aperitif. And um uh and I think the the third component is uh uh sherry.
SPEAKER_02Okay, and that's all equal parts.
SPEAKER_01Sorry, uh no sweet sweet remove, sweet remove. Okay.
SPEAKER_02I think that's the third one, and that's all equal parts across the board. Right. Wow, okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and then if you take that same drink and swap out the gin for whiskey, you have a boulevardier, which I had on the recipe at our Prohibition Nights.
SPEAKER_02Nice, yeah, nice, cool, cool. Okay, so tonight we are talking about action movies. This is more of a closer look, kind of what we've done with some of the Star Wars shows. And I want to know about you guys as well if you were to at least pick one of your most favorite action movies that deserves to be talked about, thought about in circles of this is a great movie when it comes to action. What is that? So please put that down in the comments. I would love to know, and we can talk about that tonight. But we want to kind of focus on what makes a good action movie, what makes a bad action movie, things to put in your film, and things to avoid. Um, so Curtis, I don't know if you have any opening statements or anything like that, but um, I was just I was really excited to do a show like this. I like to kind of look at broader things across the board.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess the first thing to do is just talk about what we mean by action movie and what the genre sort of is overall, because you know, like categorizing almost anything, they're useful in the broad sense. But when you get into the details, sometimes the lines can get really blurry, like what's the difference between a really long knife and a really short sword? I don't know. Yeah. So um, you know, obviously there are movies that will use action to uh achieve certain plot points, but you wouldn't necessarily call them action movies because it's not like them, it's not in the movie frequently enough or it's not emphasized in any particular way. Um, and then uh, you know, there's the the question of uh you know what kind of action qualifies as action, you know, is it specifically violence or is it stunts, you know, right? Um, you know, because you can have something that's you know has tons of action type sequences in it where nobody gets shot or dies or anything like that, there's no sword fights, you know. So just it's it it's one of those genres to me that is kind of fascinating because um, you know, there's so many different ways to to do it, and um you know it's it's got subcategories, you know, like uh it does some westerns qualify as action movies, kung fu films, like you know, we could be all over the map with action movies.
SPEAKER_02Well, and I think too, you even have like deep dive action movies, or you have like really what's popular, and just like music, you can have some things that are just quintessential, so then you're like, Does this set the bar? Does everything need to be this way? Um, I think a movie that is worth mentioning, and I would love to think is here what you think. Would you consider the movie with Ryan Gosling known as Drive an action movie?
SPEAKER_01Um I don't think I do. No. Um by the way, we reviewed that on the podcast a while back to listen to that episode.
SPEAKER_02Uh it's one of the best movies ever.
SPEAKER_01It is, yeah, it's great. We have we we love Drive. Um, no, I I don't think that it is because um, you know, there's the I I think it's but maybe just a quantity thing. There is, you know, action scenes in the movie where the the um the actions produce changes in the plot, so we like that. That's good. You know, action for action's sake is kind of one of my least favorite things. Yes. Um, but I think if you just go go by quantity, uh I I just okay on that level, I don't think there's enough to say Drive is an action movie, it's more of a character drama that has some action in it.
SPEAKER_02Okay, yeah, and I mean, and the reason I bring it up because I think it does it bears a back and forth discussion. I don't necessarily think it's an action film either, but it definitely has a lot of those elements. I think one of the key things about an action movie is oftentimes we see it to at massive plot plot points, like it's a focal point of the plot itself. Um, kind of like how I would akin it to like a musical, how certain musical numbers are in themselves either character development or action moments that propel the story forward, aside from, of course, just having a sheer number of music in it, right? Um, but it's kind of used as a tool, the paintbrush, to actually paint the canvas, I guess. Um, and so by that definition, I think I'd have to agree with you because a lot of the plot points that happen in this movie are not through action. Yeah, but I know a lot of people have talked about and they're like, that's a great action movie. So had to bring it up.
SPEAKER_01They they tried to market it like one. I I thought when I went to see it at the theater that I was gonna see like a slightly dressed up, fancier, fast and furious kind of thing, and that's not what that movie is, really.
SPEAKER_02Yes, right. Yeah, but just as a side note, I mean we have a bunch of comments to pull up, but this cigar has completely opened up, like flavor-wise. I'm getting a lot of like that cinnamon element, a lot of leather, too. But that I think what's really got me is that cakey, almost brownie consistency that's going on underneath that spice level.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I absolutely agree. It's good, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Cool, cool. Okay, so uh Jason on your remark about the Negroni says, Correct, the garnish is an orange peel. So there you go. Christopher is saying, Love an unexpected action movie like nobody. Um, that's actually a really good conversation piece in and of itself. You've seen nobody, I believe. Sure. I really enjoyed the first one. I really hated the second one.
SPEAKER_01I never bothered with the second one. Um, nobody is one of those movies for me that really exemplifies how um style and execution matter more than um you know the format, I guess, because if you kind of take it at face value, there's almost narry a single original idea in nobody.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01It's a John Wick clone and the you know, whole thing of a you know, middle-aged guy kind of you know at a crossroads with his family, like you know, there's so many shop-worn cliches and tropes in that movie, but because Bob Odenkirk is who he is, and he's got that sort of you know, per persona, and you know, he's this unassuming looking guy that doesn't seem like he would be that part, and then just the kind of matter-of-fact way that the movie kind of you know plays out its ideas, and then you get you know borderline goofy stuff, like with uh Christopher Lloyd at the end, like you know, yeah. I that movie is super fun to watch, even though, like I said, if you just take a look at the list of ingredients, you'd be like, I've had this sandwich ten times already. What do you what's sure?
SPEAKER_02So, yeah, it's it to me, nobody really is like you were saying, very much like John Wick Wick, but it's like if John Wick meets a dash of Edgar Wright in it, like from its cuts, its editing, its sound editing. Um honestly, I mean, this is probably gonna ruffle some feathers, but I enjoyed it more than John Wick. I think it's a better movie than John Wick because it at least is not taking itself seriously. But that's another another story. Um, Jason is saying that the 80s was the action decade, uh, which I mean it definitely changed the genre for a lot.
SPEAKER_01It did, yeah. Um there was of course the Schwarzenegger versus uh Stallone, you know, kind of I don't want to say a cold war necessarily, but you know, yeah, I mean I well, I mean, that was the the 80s is the era of like you know, kind of meathead uh superstars like Schwarzenegger, um, and lots of over-the-top um, you know, just killing a hundred or two hundred dudes with a machine gun kind of thing. And uh right, right. Uh, lots of uh depending on your perspective, patriism and or jingoism. Um I mean all action movies, you know, even The Matrix, of course, is known for its soundtrack, right? You know, the the the the music that's moved in it, but used in that, sorry. But um, you know, it's hard not to think of some of the iconic, you know, action um 80s action movies like you know, top gun probably qualifies, and you know, like you know, you can't separate a highway to the danger zone from top gun. Yeah, it you just can't, yeah.
SPEAKER_02For sure. Yeah. Well, and I think too, uh, as I said, it it changed a lot of like the concept of action movies, and it really created. I mean, there's a lot of I think the 80s is an impressionable decade for a film in and of itself, right? Because there's so many people that like growing up, it's like, oh, I want to see a I don't know, 80s comedy, or I'm in the mood for an 80s action film and how impactful they were. Um, 90s has that too. 2000s, I think we'll have more of that as time passes on. It's like it's like kind of this like watching it, but there was a lot more um in instead of just uh doing like you were saying about music, instead of just doing scores and like instrument behind action moments, you have popular pop songs being used, um, stuff like that. So definitely impressionable.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean to to be clear, there are still definitely some uh action movies from the 80s with you know pretty iconic scores that were written for them, stuff like uh Terminator or um uh Predator well, and I want to talk about Predator uh because um for me that's a really interesting movie coming, it came out in 1987, and uh I think that John McTiernan, uh the director of that and his writers, or you know, however the script for that was developed, it feels like they're kind of purposely commentating on the 80s action movie because you've got this group of American soldiers headed up by King Meathead himself, Arnold Schwarzenegger, with uh an action scene early in the movie where you show them as just like way superior to the foreign uh uh uh army, you know, group paramilitary group, whatever that is that they're fighting when they go to rescue the hostages. And um then they spend the rest of the movie getting their butts handed to them by a foreigner on safari, yeah. And I I feel like that's commentary, and then you fast forward uh one more year in 1988, and you get diehard, which is not a big muscle-bound meathead guy who's super confident, you know. Uh John McClain is just a regular city cop and stuck in a tough situation, and he's behind it the whole time. He gets his feet chewed up and you know, uh uh has to hide, doesn't have it's it's you know, a completely different template from like Commando like that's made in '84 or whatever that was. So uh and then diehard became the new template going into the 90s for stuff. You know, you get diehard on a bus with speed, and you know, all these other movies. So, like, there's this really interesting uh tone change in the late 80s, and I think Predator and Die Hard are kind of the one-two punch there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, I would agree, and I'm glad you brought up Die Hard. Die Hard, I will say, for me, aside from the Christmas debate, is one of the better action films that I think of.
SPEAKER_01It's great, it's probably on my Mount Rush more if I were to do one for action movies.
SPEAKER_02And I think one of the, and we have a lot of comments that I want I really want to get to as well, but I think one of the hardest things for action films to actually accomplish are characters you want to invest in. Yeah, that is one of like the biggest banes of the genre for me personally, and that's why Die Hard works so well. You do care, you do want to invest, even when it comes down to Holly Jenner, like all those things, the the connection that they have, uh, it has the perfect recipe for that. There's a handful of movies out there.
SPEAKER_01I'm I I'm an Argyle stan, Argyle rules.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly. And and there's a lot of movies out there. We've even reviewed on the show to where I'm just like, I just didn't find the moment where I was supposed to care about this.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, cool. Just uh what was it, a week or two ago, man Mandalorian? Like lots and lots and lots of action in that movie. Very little anybody to hold on to to care about why.
SPEAKER_02Yes, yeah, yes, and so often the the plague of predictability covers the movie of action films, and that removes suspense because you can predict what's gonna happen with all the characters, and it takes away the concept of like, oh no, did so-and-so gonna die, or are they gonna be okay? You're just like they're gonna be fine, they're gonna be fine if they made it this far, it's not gonna be a problem, and it's pretty common. Um, okay, so uh let's see here. Uh, we got Daniel Frazier is making the point thriller versus action, fine line, I say. Um, I personally really enjoy, especially when it comes to books, thriller. I really enjoy a lot. Thriller has that that tension of suspense that done right starts to turn it up, turn it up, turn it up. Um, I think what Daniel's saying is uh you kind of see sometimes Tarantino play in both fields, use a lot of elements for thriller suspense and also action. I don't know what what are your thoughts?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, and so that we're on the same page. Um, you know, uh a thriller for me is um uh a movie that is you know uh the lead character is usually in in peril of some kind, you know, oftentimes threat of death, but they are not necessarily a uh a person of action, they are a regular person who's forced into you know uh having to you know face off against you know dark forces because of like conspiracy or that kind of thing. Uh, you know, movies like The Fugitive uh are are qualified as thrillers, you know, uh Harrison Ford as Dr. Richard Kimball is not you know finding ways to like you know load up a bunch of guns and kill everybody who's chasing him. It's that's it's it's not that kind of action. He is running, you know, on the run through a bunch of it, and there's a big thing where he jumps off that you know um uh uh waterfall and all that. So you know, maybe you could call that action. Um, I mean, and stunts are a big part of you know what we see in action movies, not just combat fighting type stuff, right? Right. So yeah, I think that there's a a a fairly big blurred line between action and thriller.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Um, a movie that I don't like, but I would say that I would I could see how people could say it's thriller or action would be taken. Um now it doesn't play in that field of like him being super unfamiliar, but it does deal with him going into the unordinary world, right? Uh and having to deal with that. Another one I would also say is like it's I mean it's it's a fun movie, but you have you seen Deja Vu with Denzel Washington.
SPEAKER_01Uh, I mean forever ago, but whenever whenever it came out on VHS or something when I was at Boardbacker, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah. Similar type thing, but yeah, I see what you mean. For sure. Um, yeah, and oftentimes it can be an interesting like genre to blend for sure. Yeah, uh Raider Dave is saying, What's up, fellas? Uh, tonight I chose a Labamba Warhead 12 paired with Green River, foolproof, weeded, very nice. Uh Daniel's saying, enjoyed the Warhead 12, found it more mellow and previous. I personally love this year's Warhead, very good stuff. Um, Jason is saying Kickass was a really good action movie. This that movie will forever live in a like very special place for me. Um, I I really enjoy the sense of humor, the performances. Um, sure, it's got some problems, but I think it's a fantastic action movie.
SPEAKER_01I enjoy that one too, and I think one of the things that makes it work for me is that that was made by, if I remember correctly, Matthew Vaughn, who did also um X-Men First Class and uh um what's the other uh not the gentleman, but the Kingsman.
SPEAKER_02Oh, the Kingsman, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And he's got like a just like slightly left of reality, you know, goofiness. You know, he wants to embrace a little intentional absurdity and over-the-topness, but not like push it too far, right? You know he just kind of blends it in there, and I think that um that works with material like the like which is adapted from was it the guy that no, I'm thinking of somebody else.
SPEAKER_02I don't I can't remember who wrote the Mark Miller, I believe, wrote the comic book.
SPEAKER_01Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_02Um, and I think Mark Miller is also responsible for Invincible, which is pretty popular.
SPEAKER_01I believe that's Mark Miller, and then I I uh the person I was gonna go for was Kirkman, and I think I thought that was who did he also the walking dead guy? I don't know my comic dudes well enough.
SPEAKER_02No, Kirkman is the walking dead guy, but okay, yeah. I think Mark Miller did kick ass, and I was a big fan of it because Robert uh Robert, uh not Robert, uh oh my gosh, John Romita Jr. is the artist, and I'm a big fan of John Romita Jr.'s art. Gotcha. Okay, but yeah, it's I think it plays in that fine line of like uh tongue in cheek, but also it's got some really like endearing, like sincere moments that I really dig.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, that one's fun. And uh, you know, to the degree that it has action in it, I think most of it is pretty effective. You know, that scene where um uh oh gosh, I've it's been too long. I'm forgetting the characters' names. The Chloe Grace Moret's character, uh Hit Girl, Hit Girl, where she you know comes into that uh room and just like wrecks shop to that super uh exuberant pop song. Yeah, that's pretty fun. I can't lie.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, and and pivotal moments again with with the plot happen during an action scene. One of the biggest, like kind of like call to action moments is when he's finally out on the streets and a whole like group of like guys are trying to beat up on one, and he is getting the crap kicked out of him, and they're like, Do you really want to do this? And he's like, Yeah, I'd rather die than just watch. This is a pivotal moment for that character, and it's happening through an action sequence. So yeah, we like that. Um, okay, so brief pause, uh, kind of on the second third here of Chaos Theory. Um, any thoughts so far? How's that pairing working out?
SPEAKER_01I mean, it this is great. Nice. I'm having a very good time here tonight.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's uh it's really got some of those. I I wouldn't say a number of transitions, I would just say like the the flavors are just opening up, they're getting more pronounced.
SPEAKER_01And I think that maybe, you know, if you follow that kind of rule about how the rain gauge can really impact the flavor, we're in that like holding pattern section now where it's relatively consistent, um, but still super good. All the flavor notes that we talked about last time we checked in are still there. Um, I think uh, you know, maybe I'm detecting a little bit more of an increase on that like you know, treble y thing that I was mentioning. I don't know exactly what that is, but there's something happening up there. Um but yeah, I'm digging it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's it's really good. And yeah, you make a good point with the the tapered version. I think we're in the meat of the cigar. This is where it's really like pulling its full body and weight. Um, I like the smoke output, and yeah, overall, I just I don't want to talk too much about how much I enjoy it, but it is a great cigar.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's great.
SPEAKER_02Um, let's see here. Okay, so I feel like in this day and age, we kind of have to talk about it. And Chris kind of has a comment on it. Uh oh, sorry, not the diehard one, which also he says it's a good movie, it's not a Christmas movie. That's an age-old debate. Uh Daniel Frazier says, You're wrong, but that's okay. Um Chris says, Would some Marvel flicks be action films like Shang Chi? Um, I feel like these are some of the poorly executed action movies. I don't know. What are your thoughts?
SPEAKER_01Um, oh, I think that broadly almost all superhero films are action movies, because you know, comic books, of course, can be about anything, right? Superhero, quote unquote, is not the only genre for comic books, right? But kind of by design, the superhero genre has a lot of action in it because that's kind of what we're signing up for, is like these superpowers that the um uh uh creators came up with for these characters are very clearly aimed around making fights cool, right? You know, like that's why that's why, like, you know, Gambit being able to energize objects and throw them and they explode. You don't come up with that idea unless you're gonna make him, you know, throw those energized cards and bad guys, right? Right, right, right. So, um, yeah, I think by default, Marvel films are action movies, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I think that they suffer from what we were kind of talking about in terms of character investment. I think they rely heavily on the action and the characters themselves to make up for a lot of what's I would perceive as poor dialogue, poor plot execution, poor character development, and telling not showing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because um, I I mean I think that that varies uh throughout the films. There are some that I think do it pretty well. Uh yeah, good example would be Guardians of the Galaxy. There's that scene in the first act, but kind of end of the first act, I guess, where they break out of the prison and all the little bits of stuff that happen in that, like you know, Groot removing the thing that they're supposed to get last first, and that's why the action scene starts, or um, you know, uh just all that stuff conveys um a little bit of character information about like what these characters are willing to do and not do while also moving the plot forward because they are literally trying to escape prison. So um, you know, there's there's there's examples I think in Marvel's canon that are better than others.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, I would agree. I mean, there are definitely some out there. I think more so the on a ratio, the ratio is not good for me. I'll put it that way. There are definitely some outliers. I do think like Iron Man One, Iron Man Three are good examples of of that. Um, but yeah, I think a lot of movies uh they kind of do the not every Michael Bay movie is like this, but a lot of them seem to be it's where they sacrifice those elements for that. But also it's kind of like I would akin it to the where a lot of perception is oh, the darker the cigar, the stronger it is, the lighter the cigar, more mild. Right. That that came out because of a reason. Like people believe that because it's more common, and it is more common because the American public perceived it that way and Blender started catering to it. Right. I think it's similar when it comes to a lot of action films out there. A lot of people just want to, and I'm not saying this is bad, but kind of just turn off your brain, see a bunch of explosions, see the dude get the chick, and then movie ends.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02And I think that action movies are riddled with that type of format.
SPEAKER_01Sure, sure, yeah. Um, and I you know, one of the other things that can happen, uh, it depends on who's making the movie. Um, you know, there's uh I think that the um kung fu, for lack of a better term, this umbrella term for like martial arts films, um, can be particularly guilty of it. Um, for example, there's this film that came out in uh 2011 called The Raid. Uh I believe it was a Malaysian-produced uh martial arts film. And um, this was clearly a bunch of guys who knew martial arts, knew stunts, and wanted to finally make a movie where they could showcase all that stuff in ways that they're not allowed to do it in other movies for this or that limitation. So it's almost two hours of more or less non-stop martial arts, and what they're doing is no doubt extremely impressive physics, uh physically, and the way they're both captured on camera looks pretty good. But when the whole movie is an action movie, I don't have that rhythm that you know, uh uh building tension and release kind of thing. It's just I feel like I'm being pummeled and then I get numbed to it. Yeah, so you know, even though, like I said, it's impressively executed, is that cinema? Because we're also trying to tell a story and convey characters and that kind of thing, and like where do you blur the line? But like how little of that stuff can you remove and still call this a movie rather than just a two-hour-long stunt reel, right?
SPEAKER_02Right. And I think that a lot of like we were talking about with Marvel movies or some action films kind of follow that, but they they'll make a quote unquote effort in the concept of plot and storytelling, but it is you can't help but feel it's an afterthought, it's not where the focus went, it's not where the the main emphasis is. Um, and I think that's the human brain notices when that then happens. I think so too. Um, let's see here. A few more comments I'm gonna pull up as well. Michael's saying Raiders of the Lost Ark is a great action movie, still holds up, and Chris seconds by saying, Oh, how did we forget about Indy?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um, Raiders specifically uh is another one that might go on my mount rushmore. Now, a big chunk of that might just be nostalgia because that was such a huge deal when I was a kid, but um it's still I think it holds up, and one of the things that I like about uh Harrison Ford as India Jones as an action hero is that he's got a little bit of John McClain in him, and that he's you know, he's not the super tough guy who wins every time. Like, you know, so much of what's defines what we love about that character in those movies is uh Indy has his back up against the wall a lot. Yeah, you know, he fights that bald German guy around the airplane and gets the living daylight smacked out of him, and we get to see Harrison Ford be really funny. Like, you know, his knees buckle and falls over. Like, you know, that's what makes Indy super cool is that you know he's trying his damnedest. He's a he's a freaking archaeology professor, right? And he's out here, you know, punching Nazis and stuff. So yeah, it's cool to see him struggle.
SPEAKER_02Well, and I think uh you're right on that. I I also feel like it's important for any character to be invested in, there has to be a level of empathy. Now, can you empathize with having to have fisticuffs underneath a plane with with a German guy like that? Probably not. No, but you but you can emphasize uh uh um you can have empathy for the moments that he has prior to that or afterwards, like he's being called off the plane and he's like, Okay, hold on, hold on.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, does that tired on God?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and it's like that type of look, that type of action, it might be minute, but it is another added hook that pulls the audience into what he's doing.
SPEAKER_01I I think it's essential to that movie's character and defining who Dr. Jones is. Absolutely, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and uh you're right. You you you can have a character as wild as he is going after a a truck with the arc on it and taking down guys at the same time have moments like that that are very organic and real. Yeah, and I would like to see it in more action movies, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Also, just like legendary level stunt work and that uh truck scene, you know, where he gets dragged underneath it and stuff. Like it's amazing.
SPEAKER_02It is super cool, yeah, definitely. Um, let's see here. Jason's saying, I think if you've seen one Marvel movie, you've seen them all, except for Iron Man and Logan. Um, I do think there are a lot of other movies out there by Marvel that's not horrible. Technically, Logan, if I'm not mistaken, is Fox still before Marvel took it over, or maybe it was in conjunction with it.
SPEAKER_01Um by by the time Logan had come out, um no, no, I think you're right. That's the Fox still still has uh mostly the rights to the X-Men. I think that maybe in Doomsday, which comes out later this year, they're like getting them a Marvel, you know, allowance to use those characters. Okay, but um all the X-Men movies have been under the Fox umbrella, not Marvel Studios.
SPEAKER_02Okay, I I would make the point on Logan that it is one of the best superhero movies ever made. Yeah, it's great, it is great. Um, and we could go into why that is, but I yeah, I definitely think that's good. Now we've got a few others uh here to talk about mention Daniel Frazier's mentioning Fifth Element, which is a great action movie, and Chris is also saying, What about Batman? The Christian Bell trilogy, of course. Right. Um Batman as a whole, it's been through quite a bit of different faces in the action genre. Sure, yeah. Um, I think some worked, some didn't. I was happy to there's there's a level of the 90s, there's a segment of like comic book movies equal really too much color and too much hokiness. I was not a fan of, whether it was the Batman's, whether it was Dick Tracy, the shadow, um, the mask to a degree. It was just like these cartoon character like comic books that I'm glad action movies now made it have made their way out of. I was not a fan of that style.
SPEAKER_01Uh I I think that there's potential merit to that style. I'm just not convinced that any of those films pulled it off completely successfully. Maybe with the exception of the mask, I I mostly like that movie. Um, but uh I yeah, that's a tricky tone tightrope to walk, I think, you know, making a movie with that that that style. Um but you know, you mentioned the um uh Joel Schumacher Batman films, and uh you know, one of the things where you can point to those, even though they are action movies, you know, how well are they executing it? And there's a scene, uh it's been a while since I've watched that, I can't remember exactly. It's midway-ish into Batman and Robin, which was the second one where Art Schwarzenegger plays Mr. Freeze, and uh it's with when they capture Mr. Freeze and put him in prison, it's kind of in the second act, I think. And the scene is they're chasing him, and then Batman kind of like jumps at the camera or something to indicate that he's about to attack Mr. Freeze, and then the film cuts and Freeze has already been defeated. We don't get to see that action scene. I don't know if it's like they're like we're like, we we don't have enough money to pay for Arnold's day rate on this action scene or something, but like you know, talking about using action as storytelling, particularly your main hero and your main villain, get into fisticuffs, and we don't get to see it. Like, yeah, what's that decision?
SPEAKER_02Yes, yeah, and I think that is a good principle. Whatever genre you are leaning into, and that's what your movie or storytelling is, you have to do it justice. I think a while ago we were talking about Django Unchained, and one of my biggest like hangups was the plot concept of Django trying to make it back to his wife, and you're watching this for two hours. I mean, this is around the two-hour mark, and he gets reunited with her at Candyland, and all that we see happen is the door open, she sees him, and she faints, and then we cut to a dinner scene. Right, it's that same type of thing. Like there's no payoff, there's no investment in what you're trying to sell us. You skipped over, and it's I think it's jarring when it happens. So, yeah, I would agree. Um, question being though, with all the Batman movies out, which is your favorite Batman film to date? Oh gosh, yeah, it's not an easy question to answer.
SPEAKER_01I I like a lot of them for a lot of different reasons, so that's that makes the calculus a little bit difficult. But um I know that there's lots of really good reasons to be a fan of the Dark Knight. Um but as far as like the ones that I feel like re-watching the most right now, it might be uh Matt Reeves, the the back with uh Robert Pattinson. Um I like that take on the character. I think the action is it really cool. Um one of the things that you know reinvigorates me, uh, or you know, reinvigorates the action itself is when you find new ways to to film it. And there's that absolutely fantastic shot in that movie where Batman is coming down this hallway and it's all dark, and you only see the action when it's lit up by the um muzzle flashes of the bad guy's uh uh rifles, just as a visual way to represent what Batman does while also looking super awesome on film, like that. Like, heck yeah, dude, more of that.
SPEAKER_02Yes, super awesome. And the what it accomplishes, which I always think is gonna be a positive for any Batman narrative, in the the car scene with the penguin and his in this chase. One is I really enjoy Robert Pattison having the look of stress. And feeling the look of stress, even though he's Batman when he's like going through the city and stuff versus just like, yeah, I destroyed the city while I'm doing this. Um, but then also he's this relentless force that is good Batman action storytelling. No matter what is being thrown, cars being flipped, explosions happening, that music that he has where he's just a steady pace no matter what he does. It's that kind of like you almost see in like Halloween movies and stuff like that, like the guys always trailing, but that's so much what we've been told what Batman is. We get to see it in this movie, which I really enjoy.
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah, I mean that's a perfect way to use it because Batman is the scary villain to the Batcomes.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, I love it. I love it now. Uh Jason's mentioned a few movies, but he's mentioned one that I was like, we can't go the entire night without talking about. I'm sure it's on your list, but he says, let's also not forget Fury Road.
SPEAKER_01Of course it's on my list. Fury Road is one of the best, and that's another one of my Mount Rushmores, I think. And um, we also did a uh podcast episode on Fury Road. If you haven't listened, go back and look at it.
SPEAKER_02It was far from mediocre, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um, you know, that's a modern classic, you know. It looks fantastic the way that's shot. All the action in the movie serves a purpose of forwarding the plot or telling us information about the characters. It's just I I once described that that movie to a friend as the most metal thing that I've ever seen. You know, just yeah, with the the the design of the cars, and they they've literally got a uh, you know, like the Pfeiffer that would go along with the band or with the the army in the 1700s, you know, they've got the dude with on the the the do four-year-old with a guitar and all these speakers around him, like the conceptually there's so much that's cool in that, but um, you know, it would mean nothing if the action also didn't work, and it so totally works in that movie, yes.
SPEAKER_02And it accomplishes one of the better executions, I think, in telling a story through action and very minimal dialogue. Yeah, like the action tells the story.
SPEAKER_01You know who Fi Furiosa is as a person in that scene when she first confronts Max, and we literally see her punch him with her uh uh stub arm, you know, she's because she's missing a hand. She didn't care, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's so cool. It is, and and again, like uh, even I can't remember like what it was, and I wish I had, but breaking down, there's a transition where um you have like uh Joe, the the main villain. Uh what's what's this what's Morton Joe? That's it, and he's talking, and then there's these drums like music that happens through the transition and transitions into Furiosa in a pattern, bumping the sand out of her air intake, yeah, and stuff like that. These are just minor tweaks, but it it tightens it up so much. And for a movie that is so fast-paced, so much action, this is one you don't get numb to. At least I didn't. I didn't get numb at all.
SPEAKER_01I agree, and you know, I again, you know, unlike that martial arts movie I was talking about, like you know, the the pace, how it goes in and out of the action sequences in that movie is perfect, maybe.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's great. Yeah, it is, it is, and it it made so sad how Furiosa went down. I was so disappointed.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I agree. Not not what I was expecting. No, um, so go ahead. I I I have a point that I want to make, but if you need a comment, go go for the go for that first.
SPEAKER_02Well, it is going to switch the subject, so go ahead.
SPEAKER_01Well, I'm I mean, I I don't want to get uh too close to the end of the show without um talking about a little history because we've been talking about a lot of movies, and most of them probably qualify as recent, they're mostly within our lifetimes. But um, you know, I I want to pay uh respect to some of the the uh earliest practitioners, and I think there's no better place to go than Buster Keaton because that dude was amazing. And if we want to talk about stunts as being a part of action, he's right up there with some of the earliest, you know, uh superstars of that. And if uh are you if you're curious and you've never seen like what's Buster Keaton and all this kind of thing about, go watch this movie called The General, where he's uh uh riding a train called The General, that's where the the name comes from, and he does some of the most audacious stuff, and this is like you know, no safety wires or you know, uh um crash bags to jump onto. Like, you know, this dude is riding on the front of a locomotive doing some of the most insane things you've ever seen. For me, like among the earliest movies that I would call is action films, Buster Keaton is the best.
SPEAKER_02Well, and and it's interesting you say that because just as we mentioned the 80s having an influence, how much he also influenced action movies outcome in talkies in films afterwards. Absolutely. Um, it's funny if you watch a lot of action sequences uh in the 30s, a lot of them westerns, a lot of like brawl fights and saloons and such. They kind of I felt like it's an influence from him by having those moments sped up on screen, so you have these like normal speed talking, okay, and then we're gonna get the bad guys, and then they speed up the speed to make the action look more engaging. And also, I mean, I'm like, that's gotta be a product of his stunts and movies like that because you're used to that like faster-paced action happening, right?
SPEAKER_01So, yeah, yeah, you mentioned Western's another one of the movies on my list here. We're not gonna get to really talk about it, but the Wild Bunch from 1969, that's a Western that has some pretty um uh groundbreaking level action violence, you know, shootout stuff in it, because that was just a year or two after the Hayes Code was repealed, so they can get away with doing more kind of gruesome uh character deaths. Um, that's that's another fantastic movie, anyway.
SPEAKER_02It is crazy how in the 50s, I mean, really 40s, 50s, 60s, even 70s, how much Western films were so like impactful, and it's they seem so few and far between now. They were the marvel of their era, man. Yeah, yeah. I mean, Magnificent Seven is one that really comes to mind that is fantastic. Yeah, um, Jason has an interesting question, uh, which I'll get to real quick. Daniel says, uh, nobody mentioned Blood Sport, which actually I have that movie.
SPEAKER_01That movie is a piece of trash, and I love it.
SPEAKER_02There's definitely that kind of leads into quick question what's the worst action movie that was a huge disappointment?
SPEAKER_01Oh, huge disappointment as an action movie.
SPEAKER_02Action comedy for me was the Green Hornet with Seth.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I never saw that one, but yeah, I didn't hear good things either.
SPEAKER_02I I grew up listening to the radio program, so I was like, a green hornet movie, no way, and I saw it when it came in theater, and that's the last time I watched it.
SPEAKER_01Gosh, yeah, I don't know. I might have to to to let that percolate for a bit. I'm not sure I can come up with something off the top of my head.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um, I can I can name a bunch that I don't like. I don't know about worst, but right.
SPEAKER_01Um, uh well, I mean this is maybe a little bit of a cheat because we were just talking about it, but coming on the heels of uh Mad Max Fury Road, especially because the sequel Furiosa on its own references the original movie a lot. So it's like it's not like I'm being unfair in drawing this uh uh parallel. Um the there is some quality action stuff in uh Furiosa, but I I feel like you know if you're gonna follow up the modern classic of Fury Road, and maybe that's asking too much. It's like it's like what you want me to you know write the world's greatest novel twice in a row, but like I wanted the action in Furiosa to be transcendent, and it just wasn't.
SPEAKER_02No, well, and so much of that I think too is the fact that it was a lot CGI versus going for original stunts like the other one. That plays a factor. I think so. Yeah, yeah. I've probably told this story before, but uh one of the most disappointing, and not only was disappointing, it really made me mad. Was uh the first Andrew Garfield Spider-Man that came out. I uh I wanted my money back. I was so mad, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01I mean, you know, broadly there's lots. Oh, I know I know one that qualifies. Um you might recall this little film called The Expendables that starred all of the your favorite action heroes from the 80s. And I was hoping that that movie would pull off, you know, like bring all these old action heroes back, but do something new. And almost all the action in that movie felt just like dry retreads of stuff we moved on from that 80s style action where you know, like when you want to have you know one of your hero characters shooting a bad guy, you have a shot of him holding the gun, he fires, it cuts to bad guy going ah and falling over, and like you can't do that anymore. Like, we we're past that, right? Right, you know, so that that one was a letdown. I really had high hopes for that just because of its pedigree, and then it was just kind of a boring action movie, to be honest.
SPEAKER_02Okay, I actually didn't see it.
SPEAKER_01I didn't have you didn't miss a single damn thing.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so we're kind of coming to the end here. So let's talk uh final third on this chaos theory. Um, definitely getting more I would say bass notes, it's going a bit deeper for me. Yeah, and and toast and toasty, yes, toasty, a little bit savory. Um, but yeah, all the way through, really enjoyable. It's one of those Maduros I feel like like you just gotta get into, and it just it envelops the whole deal. Uh, what is the whiskey doing on the pairing for you?
SPEAKER_01Oh gosh, it's so good. Um, if uh you still have some of these cigars sticking around and you plan on smoking them over the course of the next month or so, go buy this. You will not be sad. That's great. Yeah, I mean, it's you know, uh, we've talked about uh um pairing before where you know the main two things you're trying to do are either compliment or contrast. This is an excellent complimentary pairing. The nice um the notes in the cigar, the notes in the whiskey are you know they're harmonizing with each other. It's very good.
SPEAKER_02So being that we are in North Carolina and having ABC stores, I've had to kind of like look beyond in certain and uh I just I follow on Instagram and I have always picked up uh there's a company called Orphan Barrel, I believe I've talked to you about. Of course. Um, so their newest uh release is coming. I actually have my pre-ordering because I'm like, I can't miss it. This is a Canadian whiskey, so I'm looking forward to it. It's gonna be a bit different.
SPEAKER_00Okay, cool.
SPEAKER_02Um, but things like that, the compass box you're having stuff. I'm like, eh, there are ways for me to get it. I just gotta expand my horizons. It's fair, it's fair. Um, okay, so how what say you we uh scale from one to ten on this chaos theory? I wrote mine down. I don't know what Curtis is putting out. I promise.
SPEAKER_01I am writing mine down right now. See, this sticky note is blank currently.
SPEAKER_02All right. Here we go. 8.75 for you, and I've got an eight for myself.
SPEAKER_01It's an excellent wheelhouse.
SPEAKER_02Nice, nice.
SPEAKER_01This is my favorite flavor profile. I dig it. It could just be that I'm in a good mood tonight, and the whiskey tastes amazing when it's so you know, allow me a little uh uh human hypocritical indulgence, but this is really good.
SPEAKER_02Nice, nice, awesome. Well, guys, that is for a look into great action movies, bad action movies. Uh, I feel like this is a show it we could literally go on for hours and talk about.
SPEAKER_01I want to mention one more name.
SPEAKER_02Yes, please.
SPEAKER_01Because he takes what Buster Keaton did and blends it with the best of what martial arts can be, and that's Jackie Chan. Yes. If you've not seen any Jackie Chan movies, go watch Drunken Master 2 right now. You will laugh your ass off and be amazed at the stuff that he pulls off. So the the main Jackie Chan rules.
SPEAKER_02The main one that I've seen is I don't know if it's similar, like it's the same plot, I think I've been told of Drunken uh Master, but it's it wouldn't surprise me. Yeah, it's called Snake and Eagle Shadow. Yeah, it's amazing, it's it's hilarious. He he rules, he does, yeah, he does so great. Um, but yeah, thank you guys for joining us. If you uh were unaware, which I don't know how you could be, but very soon is 4th of July, the 250th, and so we've decided to kind of lean in towards that type of genre. We're gonna be watching some more like patriotic, maybe wartime films, stuff stuff relating to American history. Yeah, exactly. So we'll be announcing what that movie is, but I'm excited to kind of explore that more. Um, but yeah, thanks so much, Curtis, for hanging out tonight and talking action films, and thank you guys as well for dropping the comments down and hanging out with us.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, if you allow me a final indulgence, our audience is kick ass. That's right. That's right. Awesome.
SPEAKER_02Everyone have a great day.
