Cigars and Cinema Podcast
Every cigar is smoked in thirds: First third, second, and final, just as every Movie is performed in three acts. Join Eric Drazin and Mike Coleman to delve into the world of cigars and movies as they analyze, break down, and critique cigars and films as each progress.
Cigars and Cinema Podcast
"The Patriot 2000" Ep. 113 7/2/26
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Eric and Curtis talk about the film The Patriot for the podcast right before the 250th birthday of America. Join us as we explore this epic journey and retelling of America's history! It's going to be a special show!
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Welcome back to another episode of Cigars and Cinema. Grab a cigar, something to pair it with, and let's journey into another episode of Smoke and Screen. Today's episode of Cigars Central is coming to you from the OTT Cigars site join five at three of custom cigars each month at an undeniable price. Join the community and smoke with us on the Oakland Tobacchist YouTube channel as we delve into the rich experience of OT Craft Cigars and many cigars and vitolas custom made just for our membership. If you're interested and if you want to find out more about the subscription and a whole host of these cigars, visit us at www.com or find us on social media platforms like Instagram and TikTok at OGT Cigars. Hello everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Cigars and Cinema Podcast. If you're joining us on this Tuesday night, if you're unfamiliar with our podcast, this is the podcast where we smoke cigars and unabashedly commentate, in some cases, give extreme opinions on film and entertainment. As usual, I am one of your hosts, Eric Drazen from OGT Cigars, coming to you from the West, sorry, East Coast and coming to you from the West Coast on the other side of the country, Curtis Bailey. Curtis, thanks for joining us again.
SPEAKER_00What's up, man? Um, you know, I think tonight uh we can be after we're all done here, we can prepare to tell everybody that uh they can take our lives, but they'll never take our first. Oh, sorry, wait, wrong, wrong, wrong movie.
SPEAKER_01Well, I was gonna say, you know, I I have a cigar shop. I don't have the luxury of of worrying. No, thanks again. This is gonna be a very special show. It is uh not necessarily the eve of 4th of July, but it this is the show prior to 4th of July. Yeah, and if I had planned this a bit more, if I had like, you know, kind of like uh saw this coming and been like, hey, were we able to execute this? I probably would have put within the variety pack to smoke along Espinoza's Independence Day cigar. Ah, yeah, nice. Um, I didn't, but it is a phenomenal cigar. Uh, and it's definitely what I'm gonna be smoking fourth of July. But I was like, man, I should have probably seen if I could finagle, but timing the stars did not align, so it didn't happen. Um, I see we've got a couple of comments coming on as well. Everyone watching tonight, thank you guys for taking your time to hang out with us. Drop down those comments. I will do my best to pull them up. Let us know what you are smoking tonight. Are you pairing anything tonight? We would like to know because the show is almost always better when we jump on. Uh, let's see here. Brian Silva says first, he was first to make it. So Brian, good to see you. Jason, also good to see you. Hello, Eric and Curtis. Great to see both of you. Awesome. Well, we uh are gonna be jumping into our cigar, but I have to say, uh, not more than five hours ago, maybe it was it was about five hours ago. Prior to the show, uh, we had a new cigar just arrived at HQ. And so I wanted to, if I can quickly show everyone, because I'm really excited about it. Everyone is quite familiar with the new brand we brought in last year, known as Domain Cigars. They have released a new cigar known as their attenuation. This is their Connecticut blend, and it's just hit the HQ. In typical OGT fashion, we had to create a sampler pack for it. So uh we put together two Toros and a Bellicosa Shaggy Foot, as well as some other fantastic domain cigars. I I know that Curtis, you and I are not always talking about Connecticut, it's not always like first and foremost for us. Um, but this Connecticut tastes it's it's interesting because it's it's from Nicaragua, so it's not crazy, crazy mild. I wouldn't say it's crazy strong, but it's this kind of like elevated experience. It's a Connecticut I would expect from like Dunbarton, or a Connecticut I would expect from one of those more prestigious brands. It's insanely good. And the Toro is like less than 13 bucks. So um, huge shout out to Domain, Daniel. Uh, and and also as a kind of like cool highlight, Daniel from Domain is gonna be on the show two days from now on Thursday. We're gonna be interviewing him about this new cigar. So had to mention it. It's pretty exciting here. Uh, let's see here. Buddy is saying he's smoking a tobacc especial negra. Well, awesome. Good to know you're smoking that right there. Jason's saying enjoying a gin and tonic, smoking a cigar one uh from way back. Wow. Oh, yeah. That's like hanging on that for a while. Yeah, wow, wow, wow. Well, what say you? We jump into the cigar we're enjoying tonight. Yeah. So as every time we go through the variety pack, and this week it we are smoking that rather dark-looking cigar from Black Label Trading Company known as macabre. The macabre, this is the first year that it's ever been released. Black Label every quarter tries to release a limited cigar. So this was for Q1. We are smoking in the Robusto size, which is a five by 50. It sports a Mexican San Andreas wrapper over an Ecuadorian Habano binder and Nicaraguan fillers. As James Brown kind of put it, when he blended the cigar and it was released the first time, his concept was like the quintessential black label cigar. So let's see where it comes out.
SPEAKER_00I was just noticing while you were uh going through that that uh you know this isn't something that I always do when I smoke. In fact, I usually don't, but every once in a while, even though it's like the cheesy thing you see people do in movies all the time, sometimes just smelling the tobacco. Oh, yeah, this is really nice, right? It is. That's almost like a humidor unto itself.
SPEAKER_01It is. I don't always sniff the cigar, but when I do, I'm smoking it. Wow, that's got a really distinct, you're right, like very like it's got that humidor, like deliciousness that's also a little funky at the same time.
SPEAKER_00Exactly.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Interesting, awesome. So uh yeah, let's get this a cut and let's do a cold draw. Mike Ross is enjoying a moonflower, which is the uh cigar uh crown heads, newest cigar. And then we got Brian saying, Wow, cigar one, nice. All right, what do we got in the cold draw here?
SPEAKER_00Um, I'm getting, you know, we've talked about this a bunch, but there's a handful of notes that are very characteristic for me to detect on there, and it's usually raisins, tea, or smarties, like smarties kind of sweetness, and that's what I'm getting on this one.
SPEAKER_01Okay, I can it's got I I wouldn't necessarily say immediately smarties, but it's got that zing of like sourness a little bit.
SPEAKER_00A little bit of that too, yeah.
SPEAKER_01That's what we were saying. Like that leads to Smarties. Good open draw, too. So yep. Okay, let's get this lit up. Every cigar leaves an impression.
SPEAKER_00However, it's not until you take a moment and analyze the full experience from construction to flavor to profile that you can truly appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01So enjoy your cigar as you light it up. Take the time to toast it, smell the room notes, and experience the first notes as they come alive.
SPEAKER_00In the same way, movies can tell deeper stories or show us things we haven't noticed on the surface. So journey with us as we take a more detailed appreciation for the craft of cigar and movie making.
SPEAKER_01Cigars like this, I think, are why I talk so much about Black Label. It um, from not only flavor-wise, experience in terms of smoke production, uh construction, it is so on lock, and I always appreciate, especially in the Maduros and Black Label, where you get some of that sweetness, always a pretty depth of like leather going on for me. And then the retro brings that like spice kick at the end. I I love it.
SPEAKER_00Uh, the very first thing that I noticed with this is that um, you know, some whiskies you'll take a sip, and you know, the flavor sensation is kind of over and done with as soon as you swallowed it, whereas others will have a pretty long finish, you know, the taste lingers and changes in your mouth. This has a very long finish in that regard to me. Yes. Like, you know, at first, you know, there's uh maybe uh a kind of uh uh earthiness and or uh I don't know if leather is the right word, but I'm trying to kind of like hone in one, but then I think leather for sure. Then like I can almost feel it crawling through the back of my palate, just this like kind of wave of pepper or something that you know lingers for like 10, 15, 20 seconds.
SPEAKER_01To me, we talk a lot about uh value in a cigar. The in terms of flavor, that always ups the value of flavor because it just it it sits with you, it rests with you. And I I like cigars with long finishes for sure. Yeah, it's kind of like some of those whiskies, too. Like you were saying, like when you you take that initial swallow and taste, and then it continues to linger upwards through your nasal cavity. I yeah, it's good winners. But I yeah, I I say I get a bit of leather from it for sure.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, I think that's right. Um also um maybe a little bit of toast or something like that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00There's something else in there I'm trying to figure out. It's really nice, but I can't quite put my finger on it.
SPEAKER_01I almost get like a dehydrated like raspberry or dark fruit type deal going on. Yeah, like it's it's that fruity sweetness that's it that's like I said, dehydrated more. So it's not like you're biting into a juicy one, but yeah, yeah, it's there for me. Interesting stuff. All right, so that's the beginning of macabre, and we will continue to explore that. It's a great start. Yes, very, very good start, right out the gate. Um, we are in our final for like kind of like American history story tales and such like that, uh, for this series. And so this one we thought was rather appropriate right before the 4th of July. And so tonight we are talking about The Patriot. Uh movie made in 2026 years old, which is a little wild to me. Right. So uh this movie uh was made in the year of 2000. It is rated R with a runtime of two hours and 45 minutes, directed by uh Roland Emmerich. I believe that's pronounced Emmerich.
SPEAKER_00That's right, yep.
SPEAKER_01Uh, it's got Mel Gibson, Heath Ledger, uh Julie Richardson, Jason Isaacs, Chris Cooper. Uh pretty substantial cast for sure. Sure, very substantial, very substantial. And I will definitely say this movie has a long-standing tradition of us watching it, um, not only for the Fourth of July, but just growing up. It was one of the first rated R movies, I think, that I actually watched. Right, gotcha. Um, and I will also say for two hours and 45 minutes, it's a movie. I don't necessarily feel those minutes. I think it's very well paced. I'm just saying right out the gate. I felt those minutes for you.
SPEAKER_00All right, so you feel like it's a bit more lengthy than it needs to be. All right, here's here's my take on this. Here's the like broad view. As a movie about a father in a wartime scenario where he has to kind of you know figure out compromises between protecting his family and um you know defending the country or the country that is going to be, it's overall not that bad. Like uh great performances generally across the board. I will quibble with a couple of things, but uh, I mean, Mel Gibson is great in this. Uh and um the little girl that plays his uh um mute daughter, I forget the character's name. That little girl's fantastic, like you know, there's there's good stuff to into um going on here, and you know, broadly speaking, some of the uh action is enjoyable. I like the way that it's shot. It feels like they use uh a golden hour, magic hour for like 50% of the movie.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00Um great musical score by John Williams, really pretty solo uh um violin line on the melody, right? So lots of cool stuff to like there. As a movie about um uh American history, specifically the American uh uh revolution. Um, this movie is historically inaccurate to a level that I think reaches irresponsible. And it's gonna get a lot of points for me because of that. And we'll get into why. I mean, I'll explain this.
SPEAKER_01So, okay, now I I have a follow-up question then. When you say of how historically inaccurate you're talking about like events that are happening in this movie, um, it's it goes into things that the way that certain classes are portrayed. Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um, and then events and characters are you know, I I accept a lot of like you know, having to massage things to make a movie work, like I get that, but it should still feel like it's representing the truth in some fashion. And this movie not only depicts a lot of things that didn't happen, it depicts a lot of things that wouldn't have happened.
SPEAKER_01Okay, okay. So yeah, a lot a lot to dive into, uh for sure, which is great. Well, we have uh quite a bit to discuss. I would say, in terms of the look of the film, while there are a decent amount of like costume errors, there's also a decent amount that got it right, and especially if you put this up against a lot of other movies made in period piece form, uh, I think it does a better job. Now, maybe not as much as like Master and Commander does, but uh definitely better than I don't know, Tombstone does or uh other movies that do at the time. So let's jump into it. Um I as a like a whole, I like how you broke up into two different sections about like what the story and what it holds. Um, because as we all know, that is such a Mel Gibson trope is a revenge story, or yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, and a wrench revenge story and a dead wife. He's got dead wives in like that's true. I don't know, a half dozen films that he's made. That's true. That might be something to do with him and his storytelling thing, or maybe it's circumstance. I don't know.
SPEAKER_01Would you say you appreciate this movie more than Braveheart or vice versa?
SPEAKER_00Um, because of my issues with the historical political stuff, it has to be Braveheart.
SPEAKER_01Really? Yeah, okay. So Curtis and I are on the opposite side of this debate today.
SPEAKER_00Which is not to say that I think like that Braveheart is you know like outstandingly better as a story and all that kind of stuff compared to this movie. Um, uh, like I said, we'll get into the details of my my issues. Um, we promised extreme opinions, I got it coming for you, baby. Okay, okay um, but uh um I think I mean both movies are you know relatively long. Um, I think maybe uh Braveheart justifies its length a little bit more than this one does. Okay, but I I have issues with the story in that too, and issues with the historical accuracy. So, like you know, it's not it doesn't come off clean, Braveheart.
SPEAKER_01Well, in full disclosure, I feel like I have a more I have more of a soft spot for the backdrop and spectacle of the Patriot over something like Braveheart.
SPEAKER_00That's completely fair.
SPEAKER_01So I think that muddles some of my discerning powers.
SPEAKER_00But what is one of the big trip-ups that you are kind of alluding to uh with the well we might as well rip the band-aid off and go for like probably one of the worst ones right off the bat, which is that um Mel Gibson and his extended family, that includes um uh Aunt Charlotte, um, are plantation owners in South Carolina in the late uh 18th century. Those were slave owners, period. Full stop. The the idea that you know they would have these um you know black laborers on their plantations and all of them were free and just hanging around and they got paid and everything's nice and happy. There might be super isolated cases of something like that happening, but it's so threadbare and unlikely. It's like the movies acknowledging that, yeah, we're depicting guys from the south, and we know that this whole slavery thing is a problem. So we're just gonna pretend like it's totally okay and not a problem for this guy. He's the nice southern plantation slave owner or uh plantation owner. His black laborers aren't slaves, they're free people, and that's just so grossly irresponsible to me that it almost takes like three points off of the movie. Like, you can't really slavery is America's original sin. And if you're trying to tell an honest do an honest telling of what the American Revolution uh situation was like and why we were fighting to be an independent nation, George Washington definitely was a slave owner and he wanted that freedom to be able to, you know, run his um his enterprise like that. Like, we need to be honest with that about that because there's already too much mythologizing and lies about uh America's founding that I think too many Americans struggle with. When you put out a big movie like this with a star like Mel Gibson, we say, Hey, look, we're gonna show you what the Revolutionary War was like, and they get that one detail wrong. And now I understand why, because they're like, people want to come and eat popcorn and have fun. Like fine, I get it, but like because this is about our story, the the story of America and what it was like when we were creating this country. If you can't be honest about it, I'm kind of like, don't make the movie. I think that's so egregiously bad. There's other stuff that's bad too, but like that's the one that's at the top of the list for me, man.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I definitely think that I it's it's definitely a tripping point for sure. I there are several things about this movie uh that you have to suspend your belief on because honestly, the look of it, as I had mentioned, the spectacle of it uh for me captures some of that time in the 18th century. However, whether it's whether it's that situation, whether it's the kind of vendetta that he has uh with Jason Isaac's character and how they kind of continue uh with Tavington, how they continue to kind of cross paths and stuff, a lot of it is farcical. And so I I think it's maybe a difference of like I'm not necessarily watching it for a narrative uh accuracy as so much as like the drive and feeling, I guess, of that time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and like I said, you know, you know, if you take the historical analysis out of it, you're like, this is just a story about a father who has regrets about you know his past, is trying to do right by uh his family, and is struggling with these uh you know choices amidst a wartime setting, it's pretty effective at that, you know. And you know, it hits a lot of the right beats. Some of them are a little bit tropey. I'm okay with that too. Like, you know, it's this is still like big, you know, uh popcorn munching filmmaking. So, like, you know, right, all of that is fine, but um, like I said, it's really hard for me to divorce that uh from the fact that everybody's saying, Oh, this is representing our history as well, so that sticks in my craw.
SPEAKER_01Okay, no, I can see that for sure. No, no, totally, totally. And I mean, it doesn't help the fact that that sets the tone from the beginning of the movie, so that kind of uh starts it from there. Um, what's what's something other uh along in those lines?
SPEAKER_00Well, um uh the you know, this is a a complaint that is a both historical one and a storytelling one. Okay, you were just mentioning Jason Jason Isaac's character, Tavington. Um, on a story side, he's like cartoonishly evil. Sure, okay, almost almost but not quite, almost feels like he's coming from a different movie. Okay, but um the way that they use him in the story, for example, there's that whole bit where he wants to use these aggressive tactics, and um Cornwallis is like, no, we don't do that. These are our brethren when this war is over, we're gonna resume commerce with them, and then you know, they're having a hard time capturing the ghost and all of his uh you know guerrilla fighters. So uh, you know, Cornwallis kind of almost comes crawling back to Tabbington where he's like, you know, you know, how do we solve this? And he's like, Well, uh, you have to you have to let me use those unsavory tactics. And he like negotiates to get him land in Ohio, and it's like Cornwallis would have never done that, and not only would he have never done that um if uh an officer was as aggressively murderous as um Tabbington is portrayed to be, they would have put his ass on the firing lot on the uh in front of a firing squad, they wouldn't have tolerated that level of aggressive disobedience. So, like so it's a double that character is a double whammy for me.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so I I think that there's the saving grace for me on that. I'm not gonna argue the historical accuracy on that, but I do feel like it does a better job of not just showing like these people are just evil and mean, like all of them are, but it shows dynamics that okay, you have the extreme of Tavington, then you have Cornwallis who's trying to make decisions throughout war, and then you even have some uh uh like lieutenants and officers in the beginning when they first show up on the plantation who empathizes with Mel Gibson's situation.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, I they do, you're right. I mean, it feels a little like lip service to me, but go ahead.
SPEAKER_01The reason it's I feel like it's necessary, not so much lip service, is because uh you're you're you're showing an array of different people that are in a conflict together, and it's not, oh, if you're British, you're completely bad, or all the British are just misunderstood. It's showing an array of different personalities that I think is important. I think that with there was bigger issues. Uh like let me ask you this what's the difference between the ruthlessness aside from the Historical actually, but in terms of depicting a character, the the ruthlessness of Tavington and then the ruthlessness of like uh the king in um Braveheart.
SPEAKER_00Um I don't know that there is necessarily a huge difference. I'd have to think about that a little bit. Um the uh you know uh King Edward the Longshanks as he's portrayed in um uh Braveheart uh is ruthless, but um there's also a certain I'm gonna struggle to find the right words for this. Um he feels more politically and ideologically driven rather than the Jason Isaacs, you know, the Tavington feels just like he's like just aggressive for aggressiveness's sake. Okay. Almost it feels a little, a little, a little thin. Uh and you know, again, I don't think that that that distinction is huge because at Longshanks as he's portrayed in Braveheart is a bit of a caricature of the real historical character, and they they do make him you know evil for the sake of the movie, so they're close but not quite the same.
SPEAKER_01Okay, uh, yeah, yeah. And I think that for me, the reason it gets a it doesn't hang me up too much is because I just think Jason Isaacs does such a good job in his acting and line delivery that it's it's working to cloud, and I I think your points are fair for sure.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I think that I would tolerate that character a lot more if all the other characters were kind of playing on the same tone level as he is, but they're not, so he stands out. I think that's the kind of thing.
SPEAKER_01You're saying in terms of tone of intensity on it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you know, if if um you know you're gonna have a really like you know, like I said, almost cartoonishly evil um villain like that, then for the movie to feel balanced, your good guys need to be like you know, adventures of Robin Hood cartoonishly swashbuckling good, right? You know, that I feel like the the balance is off in this with the tone of those performances.
SPEAKER_01So we have an interesting comment on what we're talking about right now. Uh, and I'm not gonna lie, this was in the back of my head. So Jason's the one bringing this up. So if this leads to a bigger conflict, it's Jason's fault, not mine. But Jason says, uh Jason Isaac's a lot more evil than Tim Roth from Rob Roy. The reason I find this is I wouldn't necessarily he's a lot more evil, and I would say Tim Roth is far more cartoonish than his character is Jason Isaac's character.
SPEAKER_00No, I don't agree with that. Really?
SPEAKER_01Even like his that's that's interesting to me because like part of now, granted, I don't have the nostalgia of Rob Roy. I don't have the uh, like I said, the soft spot for the um the spectacle of it. But as soon as uh Tim Roth showed up in the duel in the beginning and he's putting on an act about being flamboyant and a fop, at the same time, like even afterwards, whether he's super serious or not, I'm like, Tim Roth feels like he's character characterizing this character, and it's pulling me away from the action.
SPEAKER_00So I find that interesting how you wouldn't you say that as I I and you know, this is one of those like X Factor things that's kind of hard to really put into concrete terms, but in my best attempt, um I think the thing is that for one, we get a lot more background on who Archie is, which is the Tim Roth character from uh uh Rob Roy, we get a lot more background on how he kind of turned into the person that he is, and you know, the the the the situation that he's navigating where he's not completely in power and you know that kind of stuff. Um so even though like you could say that like on balance, the the the measure of all of his actions are as you know consistently evil as Tavingtons are, I just feel like there's a little bit more substance and maybe a little bit more nuance in the performance as well. Whereas Tavington, and not that this movie needs to give us background on who he is, but he just shows up as just like the pompous, aggressive British guy who wants to, you know, be kind of a murderous jerk, and that's kind of all that they really do to set up who that guy is. So I it just feels a little bit thinner, but I think that I mean I think the point is fair that, like I said, if you just take a measure of all the stuff that they do, pretty consistently, both of those guys are pretty awful. Bad dudes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01For sure, for sure. Now, uh, before we we check in on second third here, um, who is a character? Because we've kind of mentioned like um Benjamin's kind of like setup to his character and also the villain, who's a character that you do enjoy in terms of their depiction as well as their character in the story?
SPEAKER_00Well, I mean, uh broadly I like uh uh Benjamin Martin, our our hero. You know, like I said, I had issues about the way he's portrayed as a plantation owner, but that's not like you know, character necessarily. Um, so um uh, you know, and I think a lot of it just comes down to the quality of Mel Gibson's performance. You know, I've got issues about the kind of person that he is in real life, but putting that aside, like he's good in this. I never don't believe that he is the the guy that he's supposed to be in the script. And um uh uh I especially like the interplay that he has with his son, uh played by Heath Ledger. You know, those are both great characters too. Um, I think I think on the British side is kind of where I have most of the character issues with the way that um, you know, the exaggeration of Tavington and the way that Cornwallis is turned into the kind of person that he never was in real life, you know, and stuff like that. They're there's the the British are a little bit too simplified. Um, he's a minor part, but I really do like the uh Frenchman played by Chucky Carrio are sure. He's just a fun little kind of goofy flavor they throw in there every once in a while for him to like say evil stuff about the English or whatever. So that's right, he's he's he's a fun character too.
SPEAKER_01For sure. I I appreciate uh while the setting, as you had mentioned, that that is a good point in terms of the plantation. I do appreciate how characters are introduced in the beginning, especially for a two-hour and 45-minute uh movie. One of the things I really like is the beginning. The first time we see Benjamin uh Martin is he's building that rocking chair, or sorry, that chair sits in it, and he's like, This is comfortable, and then it completely breaks down. To me, that's signaling a good parallel for what is going on in his family dynamic and in his plantation and in the country, yeah. Trying to build on something that's not really there and trying to see if it holds weight and it doesn't. Um, I appreciate little things like that, and I think it it lends itself good to the storytelling.
SPEAKER_00Um, I also really enjoy how they recall that bit when he's in um yes Cornwallis' office, and he's like, hmm, I'm gonna go check out this rocking chair. That's that part's actually pretty funny.
SPEAKER_01Well, and one of I think the more dynamic performances we see from Mel Gibson in this, I mean, there's a lot of good moments, but I especially like when he goes to rescue and save Gabriel in the beginning, um, and just the utter like rage that comes out and how his sons see like what he had been kind of warning them against, but also like showing him the other side of him. I appreciate honestly the pacing through all of that from beginning to that moment. Um, I think it's really well done.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, uh broadly, I think that uh the script deserves credit for letting its hero, at least on that particular idea, um be a little morally complicated. Yes. And yes, that you know, we know um through you know several sequences in the movie that he has thoughts and feelings about that and feels uncomfortable talking about it, which you know also feels kind of very true to form. So, generally speaking, the way that part of his character is handled, I think is pretty solid in the movie.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and and in exploring his character, I think he's got a number of moments like that. And I also appreciate how they build where he is uncomfortable, where he's worried, scared, right? All those things, but at the same time, where they build that with um with Charlotte, the the aunt, and the relationship that they have. I think it's honestly, yeah, maybe some of it drags, but I think it's well played and well deserved in terms of the payoff of where their relationship goes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um, you know, it's funny. I I was complaining at the start that this that I felt like I I felt all the two hours, 45 minutes of this. Um you know, maybe the movie didn't need to, um, you know, because it is just a little bit of like flavor in the background, but um I could see myself liking a version of this where the um Charlotte was given a little bit more time to be a real character, especially since they try to suggest a romance between uh her and Gay, uh sorry, Benjamin. But uh I like the way that it's in the movie, it still functions. Um, I I just think that like, you know, maybe you know, maybe flushing her out a little bit more would have been good for it. I don't know. Okay, okay, sure.
SPEAKER_01Well, very quickly, let's take a quick pause and talk a little bit about black label trading company macabre. Uh oddly enough, in the middle middle section, I'm getting second third has more sweetness to it for me. Um, where would you put the strength level on this? Where do you feel like strength level's at?
SPEAKER_00It's somewhere between medium full and full, I think. Again, I don't gauge, I don't gauge that particularly well, I don't think, but yeah, I mean it that's kind of what my intuition tells me.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Um, I'm also getting a little bit of a barbecue-y smokiness. I don't know if you're getting any of that, um, but it's mostly on that finish.
SPEAKER_00Got it. Uh, I'm not really detecting that, but I am detecting something that's um almost sour, I think.
SPEAKER_01Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_00I I don't know that I can you know put it in exactly like you know, that it tastes like you know, uh like citrus sourness or something else, but I'm getting a little bit of that that sensation on my tongue that like citric acid will give you. Um and it's not unwelcome, like it's a cool you know, dimension to the flavor profile. Also the pairing. I'm having a Ben Romeck.
unknownOh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00This is very nice.
SPEAKER_01Nice, nice, nice. That that Ben Romac, does it have is it slightly peated, if I remember?
SPEAKER_00No, this particular one is not. Okay, it's their standard 10-year and it's a space eye, so you know, most space ides they don't they don't peat gotcha with their whiskeys.
SPEAKER_01Nice. I'm gonna have to try that. I'm gonna have to try that. I I haven't probably had Ben Romac probably for like six years, seven years. It's been a while, but it's a good one for sure.
SPEAKER_00I also just now picked up something that's you know almost like um maybe like a saltine cracker or something like that. Okay, okay, in that neighborhood.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, I I think the callback too of you saying there's a little bit of breadiness, maybe it's in there, like cracker breadiness, but there's something there as well. Yeah, it's good. I'm digging it, man. It is good. Okay, so uh we kind of talk about the progression of that. I also feel like uh this movie doesn't necessarily pull its punches in who it depend decides to off. Very a lot of decently prominent characters that uh end up dying in this movie.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I appreciate that because it does bug me when um there are movies about um conflict. Uh we complained when we did the Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare that those guys just cruise through the whole thing and there's almost zero peril whatsoever. Yes, and that just feels so you know, the all the the dramatic stakes just go just get sucked up out of the air and vanish. So um, you know, even though of course in this movie it's in the script by design, like but it should it should be, you know. This it should uh uh nobody comes out clean or happy or safe in a conflict of this scale, and so I like that component of it for sure.
SPEAKER_01For sure, yeah. And on that tail in uh Jason's saying hard scene was Adam Baldwin's character kind of forced to burn down the church. The pain was obvious. Um that sure that that moment is definitely a very, very dark moment, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Uh and uh again for me as a uh a moment in a story about you know uh people struggling in this kind of wartime conflict, it's brutal and devastating, and you know, sets up the personal conflicts between uh um uh Benjamin, Gabriel, and Tabington very effectively, right? Yes, nothing like that ever happened historically, not even close.
SPEAKER_01No, no, it did not, but I will appreciate it for its storytelling because here we have uh a family, I mean a whole congregation basically get burned alive and killed. Yeah, and you're right, it is the plot device to further the intensity with our protagonist and antagonist. However, the people who die in that and that serve that plot device are more than just a plot device, and this is an issue I see in a lot of recent action movies, a lot of even wartime movies. So many people, how many times on this show have we talked about? Well, the reason that character is weak because they're nothing but a plot device, but they do take the time to uh for Gabriel to get uh in romantically entangled and then married, like all of that type of stuff, again, I really appreciate because it it it enriches the story. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, it's just like like I said, on the historical aspect for me, that's just another thing where you know, like if we're trying to you know tell a story about the American Revolution, which again I think is you know, there's already a um uh a problem in our culture where we we don't grasp the the truth about the start of this country, honestly enough, and a lot of times this kind of just is feels almost like propaganda, like you know, like look at how evil and brutal the British were. Look at the look at these awful things that they did. Okay, and uh, you know, in in reality, uh for one, nothing like that happened. And if it did, uh guy would have been not they wouldn't have given him a stern talking to, right? You know, that guy is in serious trouble if he does that. But um also, and you know, the movie does hint at this with Benjamin's backstory with the whole Fort Fort Wilderness thing, but you know, in reality, for the most part, the British army was very disciplined and principled. Abuses and stuff like that did happen, but they happened equally on both sides of the conflict, right? So, again, it's just one of those things that feels untruthful to a point of irresponsibility since we're telling our story.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I would say that I agree with the inaccuracy of it, but I would disagree on the side of it feeling so much like propaganda because again, it's it's segregated to Tavington's character, as Jason had mentioned, like uh Adam Baldwin's character, which I believe is the same dude also on the plantation, but they're showing a power how much he's out of line and how unordinary it is. So it's historically inaccurate for sure. But again, I like how diverse they set it up, and it's not every English person is bad in this movie.
SPEAKER_00You're right, that's true, but I feel like the movie is trying to have its cake and eat it too by doing this whole thing where it's like, oh, it's just this one guy who really wants to be brutal and awful. Uh, but they let it stay in the movie and they let that character exist the way he is because Cornwallis eventually condones it, and that's kind of reinforces the idea that, like, you know, you know, the this British Emperor Empire machine, you know, kind of like, you know, by any means necessary, wanted to subjugate us. And you know, like I understand exactly what you're saying. It is the Jason Isaacs character that is the the the kind of you know bearer of all that, but the the movie lets him get away with it, you know, vis-a-vis the other British officers, and again, that's just so uh off reality that it it feels a little propaganda-y to me.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, no, no, I okay, I see what you're saying. Um, I think too, though, there is a lot of, I mean, in terms of like cited sources, there's a lot of like murky water in understanding exactly like what privileges were taken and not. I mean, if you take something as like the quartering act and the ability to, we're just going to seize your property and house our soldiers here, which they basically invoke in the beginning of the movie. Yeah, um, there's a lot of like cited sources, too, that is kind of like okay, what exactly went on in these houses when they would seize the house and such like that? While the higher ups, like you're mentioning, Cornwallis and these generals and such, yes, 100% they would have operated on that level. But I do think that it's kind of like Emmerich saw opportunities like that and was like, let's just turn it up to the volume to 200.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it is for sure. It's you know, I mean, and again, there's a degree to which I understand uh exaggerating um uh stuff like that for the purposes of making a movie, it just that sensibility of mine butt's heads with the other sensibility, okay. And I I find it they're very much in conflict when I watch a movie like this.
SPEAKER_01Okay. So the the movie definitely takes a shift, also as it continues to sort of like a Robin Hood-esque type of like band of merry men with a ghost, and like we're doing that. So, what is your thoughts on that sort of transition?
SPEAKER_00Credits the movie on that front, historical-wise, because the um uh um the the Patriots or whatever we want to call the uh the revolutionary side did engage in guerrilla type right uh uh tactics against the British. So uh, you know, whether or not the degree to which the they're depicted in this movie is exactly accurate, I kind of doesn't quite matter to me because um it suits the story they're trying to tell. Sure. And um and it is it is you know broadly truthful. So I I I I generally like those scenes. Plus, yeah, you're right, just the whole sort of almost like Robin Hood thing uh is a good structure for an action drama movie like this.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I I will say I appreciate that storyline because way back in the day, uh when I uh did stuff uh at Riley's for like uh historical stuff like that, um, we had to cite sources of actual riflemen that were enlisted from Pennsylvania that I of course like jumped full into watching this movie, see what's the depiction, such. But a lot of the opportunities that those moments have were sort of while why you saw riflemen join up ranks and such like that. Like we we think about it too. I think there's so many like pirate movies out there where it's like I think Pirates Caribbean 3 has a problem with this where they like aim a musket and they like shoot something out of the sky with a musket. That's not how musket works, yeah. But but the the using the distinction between okay, these are rifles and such like that. Moments like that, I'm like, okay, I'll give it a nod for that for sure. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, another thing that I think that it deserves props for, both from a storytelling and history perspective, is the way that the um time is spent between battle and conflict, because I think it can be really easy to get the misconception that you know, wartime means like all fighting all the time, you know, peril 24 or 7 and that kind of thing. And that's not the case even in modern conflicts, but it definitely wasn't in uh the late 19th century where it took just so long to move your troops from one place to another and that kind of thing. So the fact that we have these lulls in the action where you know the families get together and Gabriel gets married and all that kind of stuff, you know, it adds texture to the story that they're telling, but that's also just kind of the way that that late 18th century warfare would have worked, you know, life still goes on in some fashion. So, um, and I'm even not don't even mind that those segments um add to the length of the movie because um I like seeing the texture of all these characters with their different priorities and seeing what how they try to continue to have lives outside of fighting for the cause. Broadly speaking, all that stuff works for me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it adds extra layers to the characters versus just we're soldiers. Um, okay, so Mallory has some pretty good uh insight here. Says Isaac's character was loosely based on General Tarl Tarling Tarleton, but he mostly threatened the kinds of actions that the character actually does. So I see both sides of the arguments here.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there was um one battle in particular where he gave a sort of a fearsome reputation for appearing to continue um fighting after um uh um a uh I don't know if it was a surrender or uh after you know the the the victory looked decisive. You know, usually you don't just like in that the gentlemanly warfare of that time, if the enemy retreats, you don't just like keep trying to kill more of them necessarily.
SPEAKER_02Right, right.
SPEAKER_00So I think he gained a reputation for that, uh if I remember from what I read, but uh but yeah, um it's he's still cartoon. I don't know what to say.
SPEAKER_01His his execution. I mean, he I think he was uh he was getting ready to play Captain Hook at the time.
SPEAKER_00So who yeah, he probably would be a good Captain Hook. Um he was a lot of uh a lot of it he where did he play Hook?
SPEAKER_01He played in that really, really bad Peter Pan movie around the same time he Jason Isaac played Captain Hook.
SPEAKER_00Okay, I never saw that, so yeah, but uh a lot of it really is not even necessarily the way the character is written, but Jason Isaacs, you know, he leans into it real hard, yeah, with yes, kind of like sneering evilness of everything. And uh again, like I said, he feels like he's slightly in a different movie, but sure, sure, sure.
SPEAKER_01Um well, and I I uh as we've much as we talked, I think we'd need to do an exploratory show on like how nostalgia affects a movie. Yeah, because I definitely if I'm being honest, it's definitely surrounds this movie for me. Um But I think that uh overall, like you're right, historically inaccurate. I think there are some moments that we do see good accuracy. And if if the villain, Jason Isaacs, is the cartooning character, I can deal with it due to his good performance, and that the it doesn't affect or infect the rest of the cast as much.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's fair to say.
SPEAKER_01Because a lot of these movies back then I feel like it kind of spreads, and you have these really farcical characters that are throughout the entire thing. That it also is in dialogue, it's also in just like the action sequences, such like that.
SPEAKER_00So I mean, although, like I said earlier, I think the movie would feel more totally consistent if either um uh Tarlington was dialed down or everybody else was dialed up to match it. Okay, then then it feels consistent.
SPEAKER_01But I personally think one of the better like battle scenes, the way it's filmed and executed, is in the very beginning when he and Gabriel climb up to that abandoned like barn building and they're watching it happen from afar, and they they shoot you into the action and then they pull you out of the action, and then and it's kind of just showing like how it I think it captures the feeling of how devastating it seems from afar, but then also when you're pulled into it, how grotesque it becomes.
SPEAKER_00Right. Um one thing that I do appreciate, and this is a minor detail, it doesn't really matter for anything, but since we're getting nerdy about it, let's do it. Let's go ahead and uh I appreciate that the movie depicts cannonballs relatively accurately. Um, you know, a lot of films that are set around this time period where cannon shot existed almost universally portray them as like bombs, you know, like World War I shells, right, that explode on impact. And they did have ordinance like that throughout various eras of history that did different things. They had ones that would explode in the air and disperse shot down on the uh battlefield, you know, stuff like that. But broadly speaking, if you're talking about just a regular battery of cannons, they're just shooting big metal hunks that will tear through you. And we see that rather gruesomely a couple times. So points to the movie on that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, 100%. Now, when you're dealing with a big epic moment in time and an epic film like this, uh overall, choreography is a massive thing. Yeah, in terms of let's let's take the final battle. What do you think about that in terms of choreography and placement and the way it looks to depict a massive battle?
SPEAKER_00Um, broadly, it's pretty good. Um, you know, one of the things that can be really difficult to do with massive battles is have a sense of continuity and place, meaning like knowing where your good guys are, where your bad guys are, what the objective is, what they're doing in reference to that objective, where where's the failure points, and all that kind of stuff. Sometimes you know, you'll see some movies where like, I don't get any sense of what's happening here at all, it's just a bunch of random, you know, shots of chaos. Um, that final battle establishes those parameters pretty effectively, I think.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I think so too. And what it accomplishes, whether we're talking about that battle, whether we're talking about the conflict of trying to rescue his son, I really appreciate the fact that the dialogue is measured and sincere. And uh, one of the most sincere moments in that is like you have um, let's just take the moment when he gives his sons the like the rifles and such like that. Continuity, like you're mentioning, we know where we're at and such like that, but this is where Hollywood has the biggest like temptation to be like now something cool or badass to say. And we don't see that. We get to see, as we've mentioned on movies like Die Hard, the sincere fear in our protagonist's eyes through his speech and the sincerity through it, that's where this movie's gonna win a lot of props for me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and uh I like that in that sequence you're talking about where they go to um uh um rescue Gabriel from that little like caravan where what column, you know, whatever you want to call it. Um the the movie lets the um the sons see their father be brutal, yeah. Yeah, and you know, again, for just making him a you know slightly more complex character, um, that's good. And of course, in that moment, he's also just you know expressing grief over was it Thomas that had been killed in the previous scene? So, you know, that it it it kind of covers both of those bases, and I think you're right. The um staging in that sequence is also very good. You understand where the boys are, where the enemy soldiers are, where Gabriel is moving around in relation to all that stuff. It's pretty solid.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so for those things, I think it's gonna get high marks. I don't want to uh cut off though any other concepts or such as we're coming to wind down. What is it? What else is it that you want to discuss?
SPEAKER_00Um, I don't know. We've we may have covered like most of my grievances. Um uh yeah, I mean I understand why the movie did it for the purposes of trying to tell this story, but I think you could have had a really cool version of this where um Cornwallis was you know not so uh kind of seemingly I don't want to say indecisive necessarily, but you know, you know by all historical accounts, he was uh you know an extremely measured, competent man, and who is you know very much in charge of his station. And the way they do that whole thing with uh Tarlington kind of manipulating him just really sticks in my craw. I don't like that aspect of the the story. Um so um, you know, that might be oh well. I mean, I I mentioned this at the beginning, um, you know, we could probably focus on a little bit more. The production values on this are really nice, like you said, the costuming generally is pretty good. I think that they portray the uh the style of warfare relatively accurately, you know. I mean, there's quibbles there, and I'm not an expert either, but you know, uh I I you know, broadly speaking, I think it does that pretty well. And um I think it's smart the way that it uses, like I said, that uh magic hour photography for people who don't know what I'm talking about. This is when the sun has almost gone down and it casts everybody in this ambient warm glow, and they use it kind of strategically in specific scenes, like when um uh um what's the little girl's name who doesn't want to talk to him?
SPEAKER_01Uh Susan, I believe.
SPEAKER_00When Susan finally says, Daddy, don't go, I'll tell I'll say whatever you want, you know, kind of thing. They film that in that that kind of magic hour time, and um you know, the performances of Mel Gibson and that young girl are both really good in that scene, and I think it's just enhanced by the sort of you know, this warm embrace of the light signifies, you know, the that his daughter is finally saying, you know, I'm not being silent because I'm mad at you, I'm silent because I don't want you to leave. And yeah, stuff like that works.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, no, no, for sure. And then it's also set the backdrop to that is John Williams's score, which beautiful. I know we haven't talked about as much, but that I it's still one of my favorite sound hacks of all time. It's yeah, he did a lot, yeah, for sure. It's John Williams. Um, and I also think there's some very strategic moments filmed like at early morning, that morning glow um has also a really good effect. And and again, I mean, I think the this the movie as a whole is a very beautiful movie to look at.
SPEAKER_00Um there's other little um you know historical-ish things that I think are cool. They you know, just little things that add flavor, like for example, early in the movie when the mail arrives, you know, this wasn't like today where the mail is a regular thing that comes every day, you know, right would pile up and then eventually you'd get a whole bunch of letters all at once. So the family, like you know, waiting with beta breath, like, can we read the mail, please? Yeah, that that feels very kind of truthful too. And it just you know, a little bit of flavor of like this is what their lives were like in 1770, whatever you know that this was taking place.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01Uh Chris Cosmin. Uh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Chris Cosmas says John Williams has never done anything less than amazing. That would be an interesting one. Find the worst score John Williams has ever done, if it's possible. Um, okay, so let's talk final thoughts on black label trading company macabre. I um I feel like the the aggressiveness is amped up a little bit towards the end here. A bit more strength, a bit more spiciness going on with it. Um, meaty character, also as well. Sweetness that was really prominent. Like I feel like in terms of it on a graph, it started out second, third peaks, now it's kind of like dropping. But uh, what do you think?
SPEAKER_00I I think for me, the main thing that I've noticed is that like slightly sour and or leathery character has ramped up here into the final, yeah. Yeah, I mean, like I've I got like a little bit left of this guy. But tastes great. The pairing continues to be awesome.
SPEAKER_01This is another one of those cigars that I would say, like, if someone wants to try what's very black label rooted in black label, that this cigar has it for sure. Okay, so uh, how about we uh vote on a scale from one to ten for black label trading company macabre? Go ahead and write this down. All right, okay, right.
SPEAKER_00We did it again.
SPEAKER_01All right, 8.5 across the board, solid 8.5 for macabre.
SPEAKER_00We're building our own little, I think, uh, cadre of conspiracy theorists around the scoring thing that's going on.
SPEAKER_01Okay, and then the Patriot scale from one to ten. Where are we going for this? This I think we're gonna be a little bit different, maybe a lot different. It's a five.
SPEAKER_00What Curtis seriously, I consider I consider the propagandized nature of this story and the thing, the ways that it whitewashes history and changes the nature of some really specific historical characters is just too egregious. So, plus, I mean, you know, the uh you know, even though I think that the movie is is broadly effective, you know, I have issues too. Again, like you know, even if you take the historical thing out of it, Jason Isaacs is so cartoonish, he feels like he's in a different movie. I do think it's too long, stuff like that. You know, that it would lose a couple points for me, anyway, on that kind of stuff. But when you add in the, like I said, the almost irresponsible level of historical inaccuracy, you get docked for that man.
SPEAKER_01So, okay, okay, hold on.
SPEAKER_00And it's basically now granted, there are other historical movies that commit the similar or worse historical accuracy sins to this, right? Yes, the reason this one bothers me is because it's our it's a story about us, about our country, and uh we're talking about uh um a culture that already has problems with understanding sort of the complexity of what all the conflicts and stuff were, you know. Uh again, like I said, um America's original sin. You know, we put the three-fifths compromise into the constitution for crying out loud. Like, you know, there's ugly stuff in our past, there's wonderful stuff in our past. And if you're telling our story, I feel like there's a responsibility to be truthful about that. And even if you're saying, excuse it with like, no, no, we're making a uh a big budget popcorn movie that's gonna appeal to broad audiences and they're gonna be put off by that kind of stuff. Good, they should be put off by it.
SPEAKER_01Well, I I I uh agree with that statement, I think that should be in there. Um, but when I look at the slew of other historical movies that take place in Americans' history and get higher ratings, this that's where I'm confused.
SPEAKER_00I'm like, well, it well let me let me let me let me give you an example. Maybe this will help you understand my take.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um, I don't know if you've seen this movie, but um uh Danny Boyle made a movie about Steve Jobs' life, just called Steve Jobs, with Michael Fassbender as Steve Jobs. And there's a lot of events in that movie that didn't happen in real life, but they were uh true to the essence of the kinds of things that did happen in real life. One of the characters in that is a real life person named Steve Wozniak. Uh, he was one of um Jobs' main collaborators in the early days of Apple, and when he saw the movie, he said there's a lot of stuff in there that didn't happen, but it all felt true. And that's kind of my barometer when we're taking tip telling you know uh stories about real events, and again, specifically, it bugs me when it's about our story.
SPEAKER_01Okay, yeah, sorry to disappoint you. I'm gonna have to think about this one for a while. That's that's uh yeah, that's crazy. Um, I will I will marinate on it. I'm sure we'll talk more uh about it later on.
SPEAKER_00Um promised extreme opinions, man.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, five is an extreme opinion for sure. I think uh strictly when it even just comes down to like performance and execution, I'm like I don't know for so many other historical movies that I'm like that are so much I don't know, worse. I don't know. Interesting. Um okay, but we will be back next week. Uh more of a general episode, uh, which we will be talking about next week. But I certainly hope you, Curtis, and everyone watching, everyone have a great 4th of July. Um, yeah, and stay safe. Yes, stay safe. And uh yeah, thanks for joining us tonight, guys. It was a great show, and we will see you next week. Thanks again, Curtis. Good night.
