Cigars and Cinema Podcast
Every cigar is smoked in thirds: First third, second, and final, just as every Movie is performed in three acts. Join Eric Drazin and Mike Coleman to delve into the world of cigars and movies as they analyze, break down, and critique cigars and films as each progress.
Cigars and Cinema Podcast
"Is This Movie Truly Untouchable?" Ep.115 7/16/26
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Eric and Curtis travel to the big city in 1930 to meet the untouchables. Meet the first mug shot in our lineup of 'gangster films. How will this one shake out? Only one way to find out! Join us in lighting up the first in the variety pack, Butterfly Effect.
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Welcome back to another episode of Cigars and Cinema. Grab a cigar, something to pair it with, and let's journey into another episode of Smoke and Scream. Today's episode of Cigars Episode is coming to you from the OT cigars site at three of the custom cigars each month at an undeniable fight. Join the community and smoke with us on the Oakland Tobacchinist YouTube channel as we delve into the written experience of OT Craft Cigars and many cigars and bipolas custom made just for our membership. If you're interested and if you want to find out more about the subscription and the whole host of these cigars, visit us at www.com or find us on social media platforms like Instagram and TikTok at OGT Cigars. Hello everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Cigars and Cinema Podcast. If you are unfamiliar with the podcast, which I don't know how you could be at this point, but this is the podcast where we smoke cigars unabashedly commentating, in some cases, giving extreme opinions on film and entertainment. I am one of your hosts, Eric Drazen from OGT Cigars, coming to you from the East Coast in North Carolina. And from the other side on the West Coast in California, we have Curtis Bailey. Curtis, thank you for joining us again for another show.
SPEAKER_02What's up, man? Uh since uh you know uh it's my hometown, uh, I hope you don't mind if tonight I do things the Chicago way.
SPEAKER_00It depends on how far you're willing to go. No, it's gonna be a great show tonight, guys. We have a lot to talk about. We are starting a new series in terms of movies as well as starting a new variety pack. Um, those just started popping up and arriving. I see we've got some new people jumping on tonight. So uh as always, I invite you, please drop down in the comments what are you smoking about uh tonight? What do you think about the movie we're talking about tonight? And if you're an OGT variety member, smoke along with us, the exact same thing we're gonna be enjoying tonight. So it's gonna be a pretty cool show. Um, Curtis, I uh I know that this was your pick in terms of movie. I'm sure we're gonna get to it. Uh, but also let's get a little bit into the cigar. And uh, are you pairing anything tonight?
SPEAKER_02Uh, I've got my standard issue old-fashioned.
SPEAKER_00Nice, nice, nice. Have you experienced any like old fashioned that didn't go well with the cigar that like that sticks out? No, I don't think so. There you go. It's an apply all be all works. Yeah, nice. So uh, this is what the variety pack looks like. Uh, we are completely sold out of it, unfortunately. We do have some of these cigars available. Um, well, the one we're smoking tonight is that one in the middle. It's sort of got that blue look to it. On the label, it says butterfly effect. So, this is the second uh cigar that we have worked with from the Shadow Factory. The first one was Chaos Theory. This one is not a Maduro, this is a bit different. This is in fact a six by 54 Toro Box Press, and it has a Habano wrapper over Nicaraguan binder and filler. So I'm excited to jump into this one. Um, I know for a fact, I don't think, Curtis, you have smoked this yet. No, awesome. So it's gonna be blind test tasting. Uh, first off, we've gotten some really good feedback from Chaos Theory. I know we reviewed it on this show, but people seem to really like that cigar.
SPEAKER_02I really like it too. Yeah, count me in that camp.
SPEAKER_00Nice, nice. So I want I'm curious to see how butterfly effect is going to match up with that. So uh what say you give it get it a cut and we'll give it a cold draw?
SPEAKER_02All right. I also I I have to wonder um do the guys making this stick, are they Jurassic Park fans? Why is that? Chaos theory and the butterfly effect are directly referenced in Jurassic Park when Ian Ian Malcolm, the Jeff Goldblum character, is talking about how you know butterfly flaps its wings and you know here and in you know another part of the world you get rain instead of sunshine. And of course, he's got his other whole chaos theory thing. I'm like, this feels like maybe these are Jurassic Park people.
SPEAKER_00There you go. Well, and that's pretty topical to last couple days, unfortunately. Uh yeah, unfortunately.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah. R R IP, pour one out, whatever you want to do for Sam Neil. He was fantastic.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes. Uh too bad. So I see we got some comments coming as well. We're gonna pull those comments up, but let's get a cold draw going real quick. Good open draw. Ooh. Do you get any sweetness on this cold draw?
SPEAKER_02I do. Um it's uh uh a little um raisin-y.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, light, light, light sweetness.
SPEAKER_00Sweetness is like the first thing that comes to mind. Interesting. Um, okay, so we're gonna get this lit up and see how butterfly effect starts. Every cigar leaves an impression.
SPEAKER_02However, it's not until you take a moment and analyze the full experience from construction to flavor to profile that you can truly appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00So enjoy your cigar as you light it up. Take the time to toast it, smell the room notes, and experience the first notes as they come alive.
SPEAKER_02In the same way, movies can tell deeper stories or show us things we haven't noticed on the surface. So journey with us as we take a more detailed appreciation for the craft of cigar and movie making. Yeah, I might I might sense that a little bit. The thing that I picked up right away, maybe this is related to the medicinal cherry thing you were just mentioning, but I I I tasted sour. Okay. And I tasted peanuts.
SPEAKER_00Interesting. Okay. I mean, I could see like a roasted nuttiness. Man, this this doesn't often happen, but here in the studio, I'm getting a little smoked out. It's like wafting everywhere. Good. I mean, I hey the the construction on it, the draw and smoke output, nothing to complain about, but it's a it's definitely a smokestack.
SPEAKER_02It is. There's something else in there that I don't think I can quite pin down. Maybe it's like a ginger or something adjacent to that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I I mean, honestly, I don't know if it's power suggestion, but that peanut flavor I feel like is starting to kick kick in right now. That I'm I'm definitely seeing that for sure. Interesting. Good sweetness, good uh spiciness tones, a bit of like uh peanut buttery elements. It's it's kind of covering all the bases. We're not dealing with something too sharp, too light, too trebly. Um, I feel like it's got a good foundational start. Yeah, I agree. So interesting. All right, well, that's the start of butterfly effect. We will check in as we continue. Let's uh pull up a few comments here. Faceless Orchestra is saying I'm enjoying the butterfly effect as well. Right on. Awesome. I just made a post about it on the Facebook group, R.I.P. Sam. I'm getting cherry and oak almost smoked old-fashioned vibes. Okay, so he's getting the medicinal cherry note. Nice. Yeah. Um I I think too, like, I don't know, it's hard to tell because this is a handmade product, so every cigar, depending on its climate and what it's been through, is going to change. But the type of draw that this is for me right now is like the sweet spot. There's a hint of resistance, but it's very minimal. It doesn't feel like you're being like fighting anything, and just the the the effects of it, no pun intended, of the smoke uh being produced is satisfying. That's what I yeah.
SPEAKER_02I think I I I probably agree with you because there is such a thing as a draw that seems too open.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Um, yeah, very underfilled.
SPEAKER_02It just it just it feels odd. I don't know. I don't know any other way to put it, but you know it when you're experiencing it.
SPEAKER_00Yes, oftentimes I feel like it's it's uh an underfilled cigar, and when it's not enough resistance, you normally have a lot of combustion issues because you're like, Wait, what's going on here? It's too airy, sure. Yeah, um, but anyways, let's let's take it away. Uh, we are starting a new series, sort of we've kind of dubbed as like gangster films, gangster movies. Uh so Curtis, you had our first pick.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, and if memory serves, this was kind of like lingering on my list of potential movies to talk about for a while because I believe it was suggested by uh somebody who was watching the show months ago. Okay, I was like, okay, yep, I'll I'll put that on the list. Maybe we can eventually talk about it. And uh today's the day. So okay.
SPEAKER_00We are talking about the Untouchables. To many, it's considered a classic. Uh, I believe Oscar winner, correct?
SPEAKER_02Um, it probably won for something. I'm pretty sure Sean Connery won for his uh, you know, best supporting for uh for his role in this.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Okay, so Untouchables uh was released in 1987, rated R with a runtime of one hour and 59 minutes during Prohibition Treasury agent Elliot Ness sets out to stop the ruth ruthless Chicago gangster Al Capone and assembles a small, incorruptible team to help him. Really big names Kevin Costner, Sean Connery, Robert De Niro, Charles Martin Smith, uh Andy Garcia, and the list goes on. Um, this also being that you kind of had most of your childhood in Chicago, this this holds some level of sentimentality, right?
SPEAKER_02Uh, not particularly with this movie, no. Um, I mean, I do remember seeing it uh when I was young, uh, you know, probably 11, 12, something like that, maybe even earlier, because if the film came out in 87, I would have been eight or nine years old. Um but uh I have a I feel like I have an interesting uh history with this movie because I do remember uh as a young person thinking that this movie was really great.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_02Uh and over the years as I've rewatched it some, uh, I've started to notice things that I'm like, I'm not sure about that, or I'm not sure about that. So uh I have complicated feelings on the movie now, but uh yeah, it doesn't hold like any Chicago-related nostalgia.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Um, well, I'm a little bit happy to hear that because uh I I I don't have complications about this movie. I I decided to, I was like, you know, I probably going through it uh because I've only seen it one other time, and that was when we did it as a movie night up at the shop. Um, and so I remembered some of it going through it again. I was like, I'm gonna write down just a few of my thoughts while doing this movie. So I I came became prepared this time with a few notes. Uh and I want to go on record with saying I do not like this movie.
SPEAKER_02I think I I think I knew that already.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and but I did remember walking away with with being like, okay, maybe there's something I'm missing. I don't know. Second time around, I was like, there's nothing I'm missing. Nothing like the first time. So I'm I'm curious to kind of jump into it and talk about it. Um, but it is considered one of those like great classics, I feel like.
SPEAKER_02Uh like actually, I mean, generally, yeah, generally it's well regarded. Most people seem to like it. Um, so uh you're doing your level best to be Eric Drazen, I I think. And so I in the in the in the this goes in the hallowed halls alongside tombstone and and the rest.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes. And honestly, um I it might be as bad as Tombstone. I don't know. We're gonna get into it. We're gonna talk about, yeah. So uh May 1987, and I feel like this is honestly an odd movie, a break from the norm, I feel like, of action hero movies of the 80s. With at least what was really, really popular, that being like Schwarzenegger and Stallone, sure, um, and these kind of like macho macho figures. Kevin Costner plays somewhat more of a a man of principle, a bit more timid, and a little less uh, I don't know, 80s action hero vibe. I don't know. What is your thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I don't know that I would ever regard this as being an action movie. Uh uh, you know, there's only a couple of scenes that would, you know, you could maybe say would qualify, but um yeah, uh this is this is a stylized historical drama.
SPEAKER_01Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_02I and I say stylized, it was it was written by David Mammoth, um, who did uh Glen Gary Glenn Ross that we did on the show uh sometime last year, I think. Um and uh I think that he was intentionally uh taking the true story of Elliot Ness and the Untouchables as an inspiration point to you know make this sort of slightly mannered um uh you know detective versus gangster story that um you know lets him uh sort of you know employ some of these themes and ideas, you know. You see stuff represented like in Malone's character where he talks about you know uh coming home alive. He he speaks in a lot of like these sort of like little absolute quips about of like these little like nuggets of wisdom kind of thing, and that feels very stylistically intentional. Um so uh because in a lot of ways, the real history of Elliot Ness and the Untouchables and how Al Capone was brought down does not resemble what happens in this movie. A lot of it is fictionalized.
SPEAKER_00I had to kind of shut my brain off to a lot of the narrative and the story that was kind of happening because um I'm like, I yeah, you recognize these names um and they were people, but yeah, the way that the movie plays out. First and foremost, I think what it really suffers from, and this is maybe maybe I mis uh pronounced it as an action movie, but it has a lot of action movie elements to me, one of which being like it's got the really flimsy, doesn't hold water romance with he and his wife. His wife really serves nothing but a a uh way to get to him. He's she's the lowest lane to Superman. When he can't put Superman in danger, well, then what about his wife?
SPEAKER_02Right, right.
SPEAKER_00Um, the opening moment when we meet his wife and they see him at home and he's like goes off to work to me is so cringy. I have a lot of issues with it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I don't know that I the that scene kind of doesn't impact me really one way or the other. Um that's a little surprising to me that that stands out for you. Um it's just like it seems just like a very straightforward setting the um the kind of facts about this guy's life, like who he is. He's he's got a he's got a family at home, and that kind of you know lets you know what the stakes are for him and stuff like that. And that's kind of the reason that scene's in the movie, but right.
SPEAKER_00And but I feel like if you're gonna tell a story, uh, what would you rather watch? Would you rather watch your hero and his wife uh maybe doing a task together, changing a tire together, or would you rather watch them say over and over, I love you, I love you. The note, the well, go go impress them and I love you so much. And below, oh my gosh, what do we why do why do we have to sit through this? Like that type of thing, done to this really melodramatic, like score behind it. And I was like, Okay, that sets the a a very bad tone for me.
SPEAKER_02Um, yeah, well, and again, that might be another one of those things uh with this movie because um uh I I first watched it as a kid. That I just don't interrogate in any way, I just kind of accept it based value, like this is what the movie is, and I'm I'm used to it, you know. Sometimes when I re-watch things like that, I will really change my read on scenes like that, and other ones like the this one we're talking about, I'm just kind of like, yeah, it's fine, like you know, it's yeah, well, it serves this purpose in the movie.
SPEAKER_00I I'm not gonna lie, in the back of my head while watching this, I was like, you know what? I bet if I watched this when I was like 13, 14, I would probably see it through a very different lens. So sure that definitely plays a role.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, um, I will say I do like, even though it like you said, it's kind of almost a thankless part. I do like Patricia Clarkson as his wife. I think she's good in this.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think I think she's a great actress. I think she did the best performance she could with the situation, but we don't really spend any time with her, and most of the time, besides that, is like very small snippets of things that are happening, even down to like when he's like, We gotta get you safe, and he like shoves her into a car and they drive off. There's just basically goodbye, have a goodbye kiss. All right, like what? Like, there's no like, are you gonna be okay? Are we gonna be okay? What about my daughter? Like, it's just like okay, and it that's the type of thing I'm talking about. Yeah, fair.
SPEAKER_02I understand.
SPEAKER_00Um, but I also think that sets the tone when I mentioned the score. I think one of the most distracting things about this movie for me is the music. Oh, really? And I think the music's pretty good. Okay, so and this this will be good because I I I think one of my biggest complaints is that 80s, 90s, even in the 2000s, any type of detective or period piece in the 30s or 40s has to infuse it with saxophone, and that was really not a thing back then. So, what I'm curious about in film and entertainment, where did that first make its like appearance? Like 50s and 60s, kind of, but it was this like now that we make period pieces in the 30s and 40s, let's keep this saxophone thing going. And it's like that wasn't a thing ever. So, why do they do that?
SPEAKER_02Uh I again that's one of those things that like I never would have thought to interrogate the the music uh on that level. Um, I I this score for this was written by Ennio Morricone, who uh famously did uh the good, bad, and the ugly, and a bunch of other really great scores.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_02And um uh I I like it just for the fact that um it has it has an I an identity. I mean, like you said, you know, some of the specific instruments that are chosen and stuff like that. Um, but uh it's not like standard boilerplate, we're gonna have some, you know, uh you know, violins and uh you know minimal percussion, stuff like that. You know, I mean he's doing kind of cool funky stuff with the piano and uh the the cadence of the whole thing. So I like the music in the movie. I do understand what you're talking about, though. That if they are trying to make it sound period appropriate, then you're right, it's kind of not. Um it evokes a different feeling that's not modern, but it you're right, it's not contemporary to the time that the the story was taking place.
SPEAKER_00Well, and even if it's not uh just to I guess be more clear, is my complaint's not so much like it needed to be period music, but it fell into this, like you know what they do when they make these types of movies, they've got the the detective saxophone going on, and I'm like that loses an identity, I feel like, of the movie itself, too, because it plays into that, I guess, trope or maybe yeah.
SPEAKER_02I was gonna say maybe that was just like in the zeitgeist of the late 80s, because they there's a lot of sacks in the lethal weapons films, too. So true. Maybe that was just a thing. They're like, all right, NEO, we know that you're really famous for those other cool scores, but throw some sacks in there, please. It's it's 1987, let's do it.
SPEAKER_00What do you uh I definitely feel like a big personality in terms of the score was when they I think it's like I don't know, a third end of the movie, and uh we cut to after the raid was debunked and he finds that there's no alcohol there. We cut to the mansion, and there's that really like hammering kind of like triumphant music for Capone. What do you what do you think of that portion?
SPEAKER_02Um are you talking about the one that has the uh like the really like the the muted trumpets where they're doing that kind of thing? Yeah, yeah. Is that the one you're talking about? Uh that's to me, I like the sound of that because the music uh has this very like grand, lavish, uh you know, sort of what's the word I'm looking for? Um opulent sound, sure, which is appropriate for showing the fat cat, you know, yeah smiling after you know they've foiled this dude who's trying to fight against them. So I think it works for the scene.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I and I I the reason that was a standout to me is I feel like it does have a personality of its own and it illustrates kind of what we're in for with Capone versus kind of something generic. I don't mean to just like you know nitpick against the music, but I was just that that's something that stood out to me.
SPEAKER_02Well, as uh speaking of things that stand out, you just mentioned his name, so we might as well talk about uh uh Robert De Niro as as Capone. Um, what do you think of his his role in the story and the performance overall?
SPEAKER_00I don't ever think I don't really, I guess, look at De Niro and think, oh wow, this guy can't act or he does a bad job. I do think though De Niro is his own flavor, and I do think uh that even as Capone, he does feel like Robert De Niro playing somebody. Um, I didn't hate him as a role, but I do think I'm like, I I feel like I've seen this from De Niro a little bit. Um I think he looked apart. Yeah. I think that uh what are your thoughts on him?
SPEAKER_02Um I I think that I'm probably i in a similar boat. It's like, yeah, he's uh effective at doing like kind of what
SPEAKER_00the the story requires of him but I would don't know that I would personally put this in like you know among his his best performances because it feels very like shop worn familiar territory for him yes right exactly um so yeah I think that's kind of where I said I mean there's some cool scenes with him you know stuff that uh that they give him to do in the script this was completely fictional but I like that bit where they are gathered around that big table after uh uh the successful raid and he's got that speech about baseball and then he conks the guy on the head like you know story wise that stuff kind of works but you know it's almost like De Niro can like sleepwalk through that kind of thing yes you know what I mean so you know it almost felt like it yeah yeah it's in a weird weird territory and not to jump too ahead too much ahead but if we're looking at his character and his character arc even in the courtroom at the end when like Costner's like gives him back and he's like never stop fighting where that's so the De Niro when he's like what do you say to me but it's like okay like we've seen this you're not someone you're talking about okay here we got a few comments here I want to pull up Mike Ross saying enjoying an Onyx night I received today nice thank you faceless says uh mood indigo by Duke Ellington was the smoky late 1920s early 30s Chicago feel which fits Prohibition era setting even though the main score of Morricane's orchestral writing okay okay um makes sense yeah no it definitely makes sense I uh I yeah I I I honestly think if I were to look back at one of the my favorite portrayals of someone playing Capone did you ever watch the series on HBO um Boardwalk Empire oh no I'm familiar with it but I I never watched it's one of those things they're like like maybe someday hopefully I'll get to it yeah yeah yeah I mean it's it's long yeah but um the the gentleman who played it on there he plays a young Capone um and he did a really good job he that it always like stuck out out to me in terms of his performance um and that was done by do you know Stefan Graham doesn't ring a bell was that the actor yeah he he plays a young he did it i i felt like a better job but i think back then too it's like you were saying de Niro familiar territory in 1987 it was kind of like well who else could we get to play this role like he's the perfect candidate so um overall in terms of characters uh what do you think of costner's uh fine you know like it there are movies that I really like Kevin Costner in um where I think he's like the exact right person for the role Field of Dreams comes to mind Robin Hood uh yeah yeah well I mean I like that movie he's yeah but uh you know in this uh just story-wise he's kind of the least interesting character in the movie because he doesn't have anything really in the way of um you know personal internal hurdles to overcome all of the threats all the stuff that he's dealing with are external it's just can he you know uh uh you know find the right information to get the job done and put this guy away they try to make it about does he have the will right the resolve to do what needs to be done but I feel like they don't really like actually give him a dilemma in any sense with that he just he just does it like you know once he and Malone have that conversation about like you know you got to be prepared to go all the way they just go all the way and it's like okay fine.
SPEAKER_02So that that feels a little thin to me and you know that's not Costner's fault but nevertheless he inhabits that role so um I think the side characters you know the other people on his team are the more interesting enjoyable characters even though if they don't necessarily have big arcs and stuff I just like the personalities of like George Stone and some of the other characters in this so that's kind of where I land I think with with Elliot Ness.
SPEAKER_00I mean I I would agree um I definitely think that um through his arc like you were saying there's not much that he moves through I think Charles Martin Smith who plays uh Oscar is one of the more enjoyable characters to watch for me he's just fun because he's the the kind of almost fish out of water they're like carry a badge carry a gun he's like oh yeah and then he sips he sips the whiskey out of the barrel at the on the bridge raid and stuff like that. He's fun plus you know uh uh when you first meet him he's smoking a pipe that's cool I was well and uh there's a couple cigar scenes in this film I was yeah that reminded me uh not a bad cigar scene I'll give it that it was kind of a cool celebratory and uh we get to see another moment where heroes are smoking cigars altogether not just gangsters in a gangster film that's right so that was cool points to the movie for that yeah and but to your point with uh Ness's character tracking this movie I would say the big trend like crossing the first threshold being the attack of the movie in the first third is when they make the right raid when Connery's like we're actually gonna make a liquor raid basically yeah and if you track that there's no imminent danger there's no level of suspense that threshold is fairly easy to cross yeah even though it's in the United States post office which I feel is indicative to part of the issue you were you're talking about like it's not much of a personal threat or personal hurdles. The biggest time I feel like we see an actual threat is when the guy's on the street being like nice family better protect but yeah fairly minimal.
SPEAKER_02Yeah well and the the other thing that I've kind of you know started to feel about that scene and and some others in this movie is that because Mammoth seemed to be writing this like almost in a sort of uh like uh gosh what's the word I'm looking for it's uh he he's turned it into something almost a little bit pulpy I think maybe uh okay rather than realistic and I I I sense it in scenes like that one where you know they're going to do the raid and uh Ness is like here are you sure it's here and uh uh Malone says everybody knows where the liquor is it's just whether or not you want to cross Capone I'm like how do these guys not know this information right like you know or why is why is Elliot Ness acting like a complete like you know ditz uh in this they're like like really is it the liquor's here so that's one of those things that that moment and others in this movie I'm like I see the the gears of the script turning a little bit and it's yeah it puts me off like buying into like like this doesn't seem like believable uh human behavior in general or specifically for who these characters are supposed to be why would they think and say these things yes so yeah there's there's there's stuff like that throughout this one of the biggest glaring moments in the movie for me that you're talking about is the meeting of uh Ness and Sean Connery's character like one meeting just on having a bad day at work under a bridge next thing you know he finds him at his apartment is like you're a good cop because you said so yeah it's very very matter of fact they're just kind of like you know are we best friends now?
SPEAKER_00Yeah we are and just goofy yeah yes that it's goofy um really quick though uh I'm actually entering into the second third of Butterfly effects so real quick we'll take a brief pause um thoughts on flavor wise construction all that uh what what do you what do you got um it's it's mellowed out a little bit but I still feel like that that peanut flavor or something like that is kind of like holding the center of the the flavor profile um a little bit of that uh you know like ginger sense and whatnot the edges have been kind of filed off of that a little bit but it's still very nice um I did have to touch it up a little bit but it's still drawing wonderfully so nice I'm I'm right there with you with that peanut flavor uh if you retrohale you're still gonna get a little bit of the pepper I also getting and I could be wrong but there's a subtle sweetness not much but I I kind of attribute to like those like caramel chews like as a kid like the candy has a little bit of the caramel when it's not overly sweet but there's a hint of it. Yeah I'm getting a little bit of that going on as well. That makes sense to me. But you're right I feel like overall the aggressiveness of any type of like flavor note that was aggressive starting to mellow a little bit smooth out.
SPEAKER_02Yeah um but it's still kind of like at the tail end of uh the flavor profile you know it's just kind of the flavors dying off there is still a little kind of spike in there of something a little I don't know maybe it's that ginger thing I honestly think I could be off I would like to know what you think about it.
SPEAKER_00What about uh the Sherry Cask Abelure to pair with it oh that would be great I think I think I think we would pull more sweetness from the cigar I don't know that was I was like what something's reminding me of like to smoke I gotta try it. I gotta for sure get a hold of that um but yeah that second third I haven't touched it up yet we'll see how it goes um but yeah I think that that was one of the biggest things was the meeting with Sean Connery and also Sean Connery like you're saying is kind of this like Gandalf character like he knows he knows everything and it you he kind of hints to where like yeah a long time ago I just wanted to be a beat coff to cop to stay alive. Yeah but we're just supposed to accept that he's this herald on the streets of Chicago.
SPEAKER_02Yeah and like I said I think that's part and parcel of what the the movie is attempting to do with its tone which like I said is I think it's being a little pulpy um you know because uh you know we've got these sort of um sort of exaggerated uh character tropes or uh personalities there's a bunch of action injected and I said that earlier that this wasn't an action movie and it I don't think it is nevertheless they wanted to have moments like that raid at the Canadian border which is completely fictional um and it you know it's kind of trying to turn up the dial on you know the um uh the intensity of these events and you know making them I like I I feel like pulpy is the the the the best word I can use for the style that it's doing does that read for you?
SPEAKER_00Yeah no no I I definitely think so um and I'm glad you brought up that moment I also think that for as I can only imagine it's got to be one of the bigger budget moments of the movie on the border and all the things you got going on cars and horses I think it's one of the weakest moments of the movie not not the weakest but one of them.
SPEAKER_02Yeah um it feels again like a you know like they were wanting to do all the like you know stuff that would have been in like boys' magazines in the early 1900s like you know horses and yes I don't know that that if I mean you can have uh you know Ness and his crew do a triumphant uh raid uh in this story I don't know why we need to be outdoors on horses at the border you know uh especially when um you know we're supposed to believe that you know this is a dangerous thing that they're heading into and there's literally uh several shots on that bridge of the Canadians arriving on their horses and there's a guy with a Tommy gun at the under the bridge that apparently fires magic non-existent bullets because he can't not a single horse goes down all those Canadians are just like hey we're fine like it's it's clunky.
SPEAKER_00I mean there's other bits of that sequence that I do like but broadly it just feels like a lot of action for actions sake so it's not my my favorite bit in the movie either and I will back you up with the actions for actions sake because the score exemplifies that oh yeah we get we don't get any intensity we don't get any danger it's just triumphant music that's going in I remember remarking uh that to when we did this movie at Oakland and turning to Devin uh Devin Riley and being like I it removed me from the entire scene that that triumphant music I'm like what are we good old boys on on like horses and then on top of that every interaction you have Sean Connery who he goes after there's no it no danger you have uh Andy Garcia who gets shot but we don't get to move on like oh no something's happened we'll come back to that we first have to are you okay it's like the A team thing yep we're fine okay and then we move on from there and then the horrendous horrendous moment when Costner like says drop the gun and the guy does it and he's like what are you what is this a game yeah yeah oh like it it just yeah that whole scene is just they they really they they milk it on that one for sure yeah I I think I'm largely in agreement with you about this section of the movie.
SPEAKER_02I mean there's some fun bits with Charles Martin Smith uh again because I think he's one of the the cooler characters so just seeing you know this nerdy little account guy go ham with a shotgun like all right sure I'm having a good time there but um it seems to be another one of those things designed to uh at least the um the the aftermath of it when they're in that little cabin trying to uh uh interrogate the guy that they captured again just trying to reinforce that idea of how far are you prepared to go because you know the guy's not gonna talk so Malone goes outside and grabs the dead body and shoots it to make him think that you know we're gonna kill you if you don't give us the information you want.
SPEAKER_00And you know he didn't go too far by doing it. He didn't cross any lines.
SPEAKER_02Yeah well but also like if we're trying to make a point about the your your protagonist's journey through this story and what his challenge is he needs to be the person that figures out a way to make stuff like that happen.
SPEAKER_00If right you know the the already I've you know wizened I've figured everything out you know uh uh mentor cop takes care of all the dirty business for you then you're not your your protagonist is not growing or changing or having to make hard choices right so I agree with that yeah I agree with that um brief pause because we have a really good comment here by Faceless Orchestra he says I'm thinking of Mexican candy called de la rosa slightly sweet peanut oh okay I think you're on to something there maybe so yeah nice also I'll have to see if I can find that somewhere yeah that sounds good but yeah um I I I know I know we've still still got quite a little bit of time but we have to cover the moment I feel like this movie really falls apart.
SPEAKER_02Okay yeah go for it that's the train station okay there's a really another prime example of magical bullets being shot yeah but not only that but bulletproof baby carriages that's happening uh that whole sequence is done after this like stretched out slow motion sequence done to this really I I guess sedentary type of music underneath and overall that scene is excruciating for me to watch and I don't know I want to know what your thoughts are there's more specifics I can go into but um yeah um well the movie's quite famous for that scene um I have mixed feelings about it because I agree with you that the the like lead up to the sort of like you know action that happens at the end that you know kind of resolves that that conflict it does feel like it goes drags on for like quite a long time and they're trying to build tension and you know sometimes you know you know building that you know kind of sense of like something's gonna happen and trying to draw it out can be effective um with this one I'm kind of like you know uh I I don't know that you had to play it that way I do really like the editing of this sequence if we just take it as a mechanical exercise on how to construct uh um uh a scene and show who is where what the what the peril is what the failure points are you know uh what the challenges are and all that kind of stuff uh the bit where stone comes running at the end at the end is the carriage is is almost at the uh bottom of the stairs he tosses Elliot his pistol slides and you know the way that that whole thing is just cut together each individual shot and the order that they're set up in I think looks fantastic.
SPEAKER_00So okay so I would say uh you'd mentioned um how it's cut and kind of like set up in the Patriot how it doesn't it's not disorienting right um I agree with that and I I I think that I agree with that in this scene too but there's a lot of moving parts and you're not like wait where are we what what's happening here yeah um but the fact that Stone throws him a pistol in the air and Costner's like cool walking down the stairs obviously I this is not but again like I said it's it's it's this movie's going for a pulpy tone.
SPEAKER_02Yes that's that's that's the lane that it's playing in and you know if and if if that you know doesn't resonate with you like I completely understand that I don't know that fully resonates with me.
SPEAKER_00Um uh the one thing I I do want to say I don't know if you're familiar uh that sequence in this movie is actually an homage it's uh um uh taking uh a famous uh stare sequence from the Battleship Potemkin the silent film I did not know that yeah okay okay cool well I mean yeah that's that's cool um but I think too like problem where the tension for me like starts to like plummet is okay in the before the guns start firing and he's like gotta help this lady out of the way and so he's she he starts dragging the carriage up and you have this incessant monologue from the mom being like oh yeah you're such a good boy it's like why would you do that like it's it's it's hard it's hard for me to get through um and then of course too like I guess this is supposed to be a moment where Ness really fully like gives up control and belief in his teammates when he's like you got him and then Andy Garcia is gonna shoot him I just it I felt nothing from it and so I don't know um for me I think probably and this is unfortunate because it's kind of how the film tries to wrap up the story I think one of the weakest uh bits is actually that courtroom scene at the end yeah because um almost everything that happens in there is very hard to to buy you know it doesn't pass the credulity test for me like I was like this like like courtrooms do not work this way that like the whole thing where he's like switch the juries like like that's so far afield from how actual trials work because that was an thing that was invented for this movie right right um so every everything that happens in that that courtroom sequence to me or at least almost everything is just like okay I know we're going for a stylized pulpy version of this story but I really have a hard time buying this I I agree yeah and is that supposed to speculation but is that supposed to be the second time like the big uh impactful moment where he's like willing to go further when he like tell doesn't tell him the truth but he's like he's on the board I guess if so yeah sure fly by night like there it goes um but and and again back to Ness's character when we we get to that point this is right after he has the confrontation on the roof oh yeah the whole thing with uh what's the guy's name Frank Nitty or whatever that that guy's name is yeah um yeah that uh feels like a completely like distraction right you know uh just you gotta have this personal showdown with the guy who killed my my mentor right and again that's not something that happened in real life either that guy was not killed by Elliot Ness in real life right so um yeah and so it's it's a funky scene and you it gives uh uh uh Ness the opportunity to deliver a gun another really pulpy line he's like did it sound anything like that it's it's it's it's all a little over the top and unnecessary so and I think overall is the structure we've gone through a lot of scenes in this movie and uh I I've look I looked at the movie uh and it's known also as a crime thriller I don't really feel much thriller element in this and I think that often like I a kind of like a common type of crime thriller normally ends in a courtroom. I think that you have those kind of trials and things going on with crime thrillers. But this movie decides to try to play both feet in it and also pay lip surface to uh service to what we were just talking about like you need some kind of showdown and action moment at the end but at the same time the main win is in the courtroom because this is a crime thriller and I'm like you're you're polling at too many different areas I don't think this is going to work and I frankly don't think it does. Yeah I follow you um but yeah those I think were some of the biggest biggest issues standout issues I I will say one of the sadder moments of the movie but also really well executed to say a positive is the opening scene uh when uh the the building gets blown up and the children that I was like okay maybe this movie has a lot more and then it was but I I liked the That that was executed.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um, I I also largely like uh, you know, even though, like I said, it's playing in that very kind of pulpy realm, uh, and he's sometimes given slightly ridiculous things to say. I like Sean Connery in this, I think he's fun to watch every time that he's on screen. I I even like the way he executes his death scene.
SPEAKER_00I I do think he's Sean Connery and he's a great actor. Um now correct me if I'm wrong, I should probably know this, but Sean Connery is Scottish, right? Indeed. So how come in this movie they didn't try to manipulate his Scottish accent at all? And they're just like that Irishman.
SPEAKER_02I whatever, who knows?
SPEAKER_00I turned to the city.
SPEAKER_02He also plays uh uh um in the movie The Highlander, which is about a Scottish person from the Scottish Highlands, he is not the Highlander, he plays a Spaniard in that movie.
SPEAKER_00Anyway. But no, he does a good job. I I do feel like they decided to give him all the kind of cool lines, yeah. But is that more just his execution of those lines?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean I I could see some of those things not landing as well if they weren't didn't have the same, you know, gusto in their performance like like Connery delivers here. I I you know again, it's pulpy, but I like it. It's it it works for me.
SPEAKER_01So okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and so I mean, I don't know, is there some other scenes or or characters you want to talk about that I just don't want to skip over too much?
SPEAKER_02Um there was I have mixed feelings about um the guy that um he's he's the one they capture at the um the the border raid, the guy who has the the the ledger. And uh he serves you know a a role in the plot, and I kind of like his performance when they're in that uh cabin where he's acting kind of like all twitchy and irritated that these guys that these you know these G men are bothering and s and stuff. But um they didn't they they otherwise don't do a whole lot with that guy because he just gets taken out in like the the following scene. Um I there's something about the the progress through which they you know kind of figure out and capture guys that are parts of Capone's team that just feels maybe a little clunky, but I don't know. That's a mine that's a minor thing. I don't know. I I feel like I feel like we've covered most of the bases on this one.
SPEAKER_00We we did. The last thing I want to mention is uh if you're dealing with a protagonist being like we gotta fight, and and it there's even some lines like oh man, the way in in the street when he's like, I want to hurt him, I want to hurt Capone. Like, okay, you're starting to try to get this feeling like he it feels personal, we're not sure why, but it feels a little bit personal, and then he shows up at Capone's place and he gets like held back by Sean Connery and stuff. I'm like, a moment like this doesn't really feel well deserved, like that type of rage, and like I'm gonna just gonna bust open wide. And I'm just like moments like that, which are again so many in this movie that are meant to feel impactful, just do not hit the mark. And I think that's part of what this movie suffers from from me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, and you know, whether a moment like that works or doesn't work could be down to the uh the actor's performance, and maybe Kevin Costner didn't quite have the right take on it to make that effective the way it could have been. I don't know. I would second that.
SPEAKER_00Um, the last then the last thing I want to say in terms of a positive as well is for a period piece made in 1987, costuming did a pretty good job, pretty solid, I agree. Um, and that's not only down to the style of what they're wearing, but also the colors, um, the tone. Uh a lot of times I feel like in 80s and 90s and also 70s, you look at the sting and stuff like that. It's these portrayals of the 30s and 40s with 70s haircuts and like 70s cut at the close. So for that, I'm like, okay, I'll I'll give it that. The costuming, they were spot on, they knew what they were doing. I agree, which was cool.
SPEAKER_02But yeah, well, and and generally, I think it's a good-looking movie, like in terms of just cinematography and stuff. You know, it's not doing anything like wildly stylish, but you know, it's just that the thing that you know used to be de rigor in Hollywood, just you know, competent, straightforward, well-made uh cinematography. And like I said, I do think the editing in this movie largely is pretty good, uh, even if it's servicing a story that is you know a little too pulpy, a little too thin, a little too uh freewheeling with how it um uh deals with historical events and plausibility.
SPEAKER_00So I agree, I agree. Um, okay, so final thoughts on this cigar. Juan uh Olivo says the Mexican candy is actually called Mazapan.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00So we're gonna have to look that up.
SPEAKER_03Indeed.
SPEAKER_00Um, but still peanut forward, um, good level of spice, a little bit of breadiness as well for me. Um, and maybe like this is take me way back, but like a cinnamon graham cracker.
SPEAKER_02Okay, that that I I was trying to figure out what else I was tasting, and I was gonna land on cocoa, but I was like, I don't know that that's quite right. And I think that maybe you've hit on it there with the cinnamon. That makes sense to me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, a little bit there. Um, but this is definitely a I'd smoke it again cigar. This is this is yeah, this is scratching the itch.
SPEAKER_02Good stuff.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, all right. So let's uh write down on a scale from one to ten what uh this new Shadow Factory butterfly effect is going to be. All right, I have my number. Look at that. Straight eight across the board.
SPEAKER_02I need to do like I need to do like an Instagram real supercut of every time we should.
SPEAKER_00There we go. Okay, and then uh a scale from one to ten untouchables. All right, it's a six for me, it's a four point five for me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I I still uh like the movie partly out of nostalgia because I just you know this is one I've seen a lot, and yeah, I almost didn't have to re-watch it for this, although I did. Um but uh yeah, as time has gone on and I've started to be a little more critical about things and have different ideas. I've I've noticed things like we talked about that you know the protagonist's arc is kind of thin, and uh the movie has plausibility problems, and you know, some of the pulpy style can be a little off-putting at times and and whatnot. So yeah, but I still I don't think it's terrible. Like, I I couldn't I feel like going lower than six is wouldn't represent how I really feel about it, but okay, yeah, it's got problems for sure.
SPEAKER_00Okay, yeah, I I just I couldn't get it above five. Um, not my type of movie, and it probably I I do want to actually like dive deep into that, like how much nostalgia really does infect the score because I do think if I did watch this at a younger age, it probably would have gotten a six or something. Like makes sense, yeah. Um, Jason says, hello, Eric and Curtis, I'm late to the show.
SPEAKER_02Oh, indeed, yeah. Sorry, we're wrapping up.
SPEAKER_00To catch you up, we talked about uh untouchables. Uh our rated 4.5. Curtis gave it a six point ten six out of ten. Um, and there you go. So that is the first. Now, what we're gonna be doing next week, and I really hope if everyone is like with us next week, please do try to seek this movie out because this is a very like to me historical relevant movie when it comes to gangster films, and at the same time, it is it is a pretty old movie. Um, we're gonna be talking about Little Caesar, and uh this movie was made in 1931, and it was kind of Edward G. Robbins' breakout movie. Um, it's only an hour and 19 minutes long, but I will say one of the things that's always stuck out with me, I've seen it a number of times, but the cinematography for 1931 to me, I thought was pretty good.
SPEAKER_02So I'm super duper looking forward to this because it's another opportunity to check out a movie I haven't seen yet. And um broadly speaking, that uh that era of Hollywood I think is a strong one. I I've liked a lot of the movies that I've watched from that decade. So um I I'm I'm I'm hyped about this.
SPEAKER_00Nice, nice. And yeah, so if you guys have the opportunity, try to find it somewhere. I got actually let me let me real quick, I'm gonna do a search, see if uh you can stream it anywhere. Yeah, that's probably worth finding out. Uh let's see here.
SPEAKER_02Oh more often than not, I say again.
SPEAKER_00I I you might be able to stream it on HBO Max if you don't want to spend money if you got HBO Max. But um, yeah, I just remember seeing this movie a long time ago, and this is like so many tropes of like this is exactly what we're doing.
SPEAKER_02Come on, you gotta, yeah, we gotta we gotta get get right in there and do it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, awesome. Well, thanks, Curtis. Thanks for jumping on tonight. Um, everybody, thanks for watching with us, and we'll be back next week. Try to watch Little Caesar so we can talk about it next week. Okay, all right. We'll see you then. Uh, everyone have a great week.
