Cigars and Cinema Podcast
Every cigar is smoked in thirds: First third, second, and final, just as every Movie is performed in three acts. Join Eric Drazin and Mike Coleman to delve into the world of cigars and movies as they analyze, break down, and critique cigars and films as each progress.
Cigars and Cinema Podcast
"Meet Donnie Brasco" Ep. 116 7/29/26
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Eric and Curtis continue in the third week of 'Gangster Films' and watch the 1997 movie Donnie Brasco. Starring two icons, Johnny Depp and Al Pacino, Curtis has seen this movie, but this will be the first time for Eric.
Join us for a special show and light up the limited El Mago Jug Robusto Box Press.
LINK: El Mago Cigars
https://oakglentobacconist.com/product-category/el-mago-cigars/
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Welcome back to another episode of Cigars and Cinema. Grab a cigar, something to pair it with, and let's journey into another episode of Smoke and Scream. Today's episode of Cigars and Summit 15 and the OT cigars decide to join five out of 20 of the custom cigars each month at an undeniable size. Join the community and smoke with us on the Oaklands YouTube channel as we delve into the written experience of 15 craft cigars. If you're interested and if you want to find out more about the subscription and the full post of these cigars, visit us at www.bacchinist.com or find us on social media platforms like Instagram and TikTok at OGT Cigars. Hello everybody and welcome back to another episode of Cigars and Cinema Podcast. Thank you for joining us on this Tuesday night as we meet every Tuesday night. Uh coming to you from humid, hot and humid North Carolina East Coast. I am Eric Drazen with Oakland Tobacconist. And on the West Coast, also very warm, less humid, would be Curtis Bailey. Curtis, thanks again for joining us tonight.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um, I'm looking forward to this evening, but I do have one uh um warning, I guess, for you.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_01This cigar we're smoking tonight. Better not be no fese.
SPEAKER_02Hey, if you don't like it, forget about it. I'm excited about tonight, guys. We are concluding our gangster series in terms of movies. We are continuing through the OGT variety club. And if you're new uh to the podcast, this is the podcast where we smoke cigars unabashedly commentating, in some cases, giving extreme opinions on film and entertainment. Uh, tonight we are following, as I say, in our variety pack. We're about halfway there. Very soon, in a matter of like a little over a week, we have the new variety coming out. But tonight we're going through this and we have uh tried the moon flower flower, we have tried the butterfly effect, and now tonight we are smoking the jug by El Mago. Curtis, have you smoked a cigar yet?
SPEAKER_01Not yet.
SPEAKER_02Cool, cool, cool. So uh this is a limited release in what El Mago is calling their tin series. Uh, it's only available to select shops who carry El Mago cigars, thankfully, we're one of them. Um they release a five-pack in these really cool looking tins. So we decided for the variety to include both of the releases. You'll notice that one on the right, Calvary. Um, all releases are released in this by like 5x50 box press format. The jug is a dark Maduro. In fact, it's a Mexican San Andreas with an Ecuadorian binder and Nicaraguan fillers. So I'm excited to jump into the cigar. I've smoked it one at a time. It's so limited, I only got my hands on one more for tonight. So okay. There we go. Um, I also see we got a comment jumping down. As always, guys, please drop down your comments. What are you smoking tonight? What are your opinions of the cigar? What are your opinions of the movie? We'd love to know. Uh, the comment we have is from Mr. Jason Levis saying, Hey, Eric and Curtis, about to light up HVC Connecticut Broadleaf. Nice, cool, cool. That's right. Hope you enjoy. Um, as we light into this, you got your standby old fashioned?
SPEAKER_01Uh, no, actually, um uh partly um because I didn't feel like going and making a cocktail, but also just because I wanted to see what it was like paired with a cigar. I'm taking the whiskey that I normally use for making my old fashioned, and I'm just gonna pour some of that to drink neat.
SPEAKER_02So I I had a moment. Nice. Mallory and I went out uh for sort of a date night, and I was like, Curtis would have been proud of me. So we we go uh get seated at the bar and we're like ordering food, and they're like, Anything for cocktail? And Mallory's like, uh, yeah, I'll take a Manhattan. And the first thing the bartender says is, Yeah, what bourbon would you like? And she starts naming a few, and I was like, sorry, do you have happen to have any rye? And they're like, We have bullet rye. I was like, let's go with that. You gotta do rye with an old fashioned, you have to. As some me sorry, with a manhattan. Yeah, with Manhattan. Me and Clark are going through Mandalorian. This is the way. So indeed. Yes, indeed. Okay, so let's let's get a cut on El Mago Jug and see what it first starts with. Do a little bit of a cold draw. A little bit of like a dustiness to it.
SPEAKER_01Mine, I was I'm almost sensing something like a little bit like lemony, perhaps.
SPEAKER_02Okay, interesting. All right. Well, that's the cold draw. Let's go ahead and light this up. All right. Every cigar leaves an impression.
SPEAKER_01However, it's not until you take a moment and analyze the full experience from construction to flavor to profile that you can truly appreciate it.
SPEAKER_02So enjoy your cigar as you light it up. Take the time to toast it, smell the room notes, and experience the first notes as they come alive.
SPEAKER_01In the same way, movies can tell deeper stories or show us things we haven't noticed on the surface. So journey with us as we take a more detailed appreciation for the craft of cigar and movie making.
SPEAKER_02All right, just putting the finishing touches right here. Really good open draw, good smoke output, too. Wow. Fair amount of pepper on the retro ale. Yeah. Uh Mike Ross says he's smoking a 601 blue 20th. Nice, that's also rare. Very nice. All right. First notes jumping out from El Mago the Jug.
SPEAKER_01Um, I I have a weird tasting note, and then what I'm about to say might sound like, you know, it's like, ew, gross. Why would I want to taste that on a cigar? It's the same way when we talk about like Isla whiskey. I'm like, it tastes like tires and band-aids, but good. Um this kind of tastes like a dusty old book, if that makes sense. Ooh, okay.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no. I can see what you mean. It's got a little bit of like a musty, dusty book. I can I can see what you're saying there. Like, kind of like if you were to take that book and like have you ever with older books like smelled the pages? Yeah, yeah, old book smell for sure. I definitely see that. I I get hints of uh pepper. Well, I want to say hints, quite a bit of pepper on the retro. Um, a little bit of mustiness, very earthy as well. A little bit of earthiness going on.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And wrapped up in that that old book thing is probably a little bit of leather, too, I think.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, leather bound, dusty book. There you go. I really like that though. Uh this is a cigar that's not playing around. Like you light it up, the flavors there, the strength is there, there's really no warm-up time. Um and I've really discovered too, like on some blends, and I found this out with a recent society drop, is so much of its like character of the cigar really do depend on making certain it's not over humidified. Sure. Um, and I say that because I've had a fair amount of like cigars that have like smoked like this right now, where it's just it's a lot of smoke, it's a lot of body, it's a lot of flavor, and then I'll go back to it and it's a little too humidified, it's very muted. So I think it's it's a very part important part of the process. I feel like this is a good humidity uh portion. I'm getting the full flavor going on. Yeah. Off to a great.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um, this this this time of year, I'm generally well, I mean, it's it's not too different year-round, but because my office temperature stays relatively stable, but I I try to keep um within the like 66 to 69 percent range on the humidor. I don't I don't think yeah, I mean 70s, you know, low 70s can be fine, but uh, I get a little bit better stability in that high 60s range.
SPEAKER_02I agree 100%. And I think the unsaid thing about I mean, I know this is more about humidity in cigars. We'll get in the movie in a minute, but um I do think there is a lot to be said of as you mentioned the key words of this time of year. I think it is important to adjust your humidity as the seasons change. A lot of people don't talk about that, but it is very important, yeah. Um, for sure. I'm also closing note, I'm getting a little bit of like you know that like Christmas, like when you take a an orange, you put clove in it, like a pomander. Sure, yeah. I'm getting hints of that going on. I feel like that makes sense to me. Yeah, spices less peppery and more cinnamon, citrus, some of that lemon that you were talking about.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So, okay, we are continuing in our third and final film of our gangster series before we start a new one next month. Uh, this one was your pick, Curtis, so I'll let you take it away. What are we talking about tonight?
SPEAKER_01We are talking about Donny Broscu, which I believe came out in around 98 or thereabouts. I I don't I don't have the info in front of me. 96, 98, somewhere somewhere in that range, I think.
SPEAKER_02Uh, no, you're you're on the right track, it's 97. So right in the way you're gonna go right in there. Nice. Did you see this in the theater when it first came out?
SPEAKER_01I'm pretty sure that I did. Um, uh I know that um, you know, this is a movie that I'd seen a number of times over the years. Um, I don't did I ever own a copy of this? I can't recall. Um, yeah, I almost certainly saw it in a theater. And um uh I I like this movie uh a lot, but uh I mentioned this when we announced it last week. I also hadn't actually sat down to watch it in probably 20 plus years. So I was like, okay, how am I gonna feel about this now if we will re-watch it? So um, yeah, it felt like a good one to hit up. And like you said, you know, this is not one that you had seen. It's probably not gonna be like on a lot of people's like top 10 lists of gangster movies. Um, so I felt like it was a worthwhile one to kind of poke at.
SPEAKER_02Definitely, definitely. So, yeah, uh, just to kind of give a bit more of a snapshot on this movie, Donnie Brasco, as mentioned, was made in '97. It is rated R with a runtime of two hours and seven minutes. An FBI agent, undercover agent, infiltrates a mob and finds himself identifying more with the mafia life at the expense of his regular one. Pretty big names as well. Johnny Depp, Al Pacino, uh, Michael Madsen, James Russo, uh, Bruno Kirby, just to name a few, and hat uh and and it's Haysh. Haysh and Haish. Um, yeah. So as you had mentioned, this is the first time I watch this movie. And uh, I will definitely say for the most part, I'm on board with most Johnny Depp movies in the first place. Like, I do uh like how he's able to give a performance like Edward Scissor Hands to Jack Sparrow to Donnie Brasco to like he is pretty diverse and I enjoy it before he was typecast into the the Jack Sparrow type role, of course. Um but overall to kind of like uh come out and just like talk about it in more broad strokes, I really enjoyed this movie. Good. Can you believe it? 1990s like prime thriller movie, and I really enjoyed it.
SPEAKER_01Um finally got him with one.
SPEAKER_02I think a lot a large portion of this that I really enjoyed is the dialogue and the execution of dialogue. Um, if there's anything like uh I watched it uh with Mallory and and uh Andrew, and he asked me, He's like, Do you like Al Pacino as an actor? And I'm like, he's okay, but I would say one of his strongest elements is the his line delivery and his commitment to accent and dialogue. Yeah, um, and I think we kind of even touched on that when we were talking about um why am I blanking on the movie? The leads, the leads, what it was the movie Oh uh Glenn Gary Glenn Ross, yeah. Glenn Gary Glenn Ross. Like that, I think he did a great job on that. So overall, I like the dynamic. I'm really happy you suggested it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um, you know, one of the things that I remembered liking about this movie and was really reinforced when I rewatched it last night is that um, and we're gonna get into like, you know, the discussion about the protagonists and stuff, is that, you know, of course, this movie's titled Donnie Brasco. Of course, you know, um Joey Pistone, his real name Pistoni, whatever. Um, you know, he's ostensibly the main character, but I feel like this is Al Pacino's movie, Lefty, the character that he plays. Um, because almost all the drama, even the way that um Donnie Brasco is relating to his you know commitment to his job versus the emotions he feels about this guy who's kind of taken him under his wing, uh, all center around Lefty's persona and his status in this little corner of the mob, and how he's struggling for um uh success and uh kudos, and you know has a hard time getting them. And I think that um the way Al Pacino portrays that character's frustration and sadness is really good because this is you know, late 90s, Al Pacino had already had his like, you know, uh um uh son of a woman, you know, swerve into just going all the time. That was this was, I mean, this is only a couple years after heat, and you know, like you know, he was firmly in the like you know, post-Pacino, you know, period of his career. He wasn't doing roles like Serpico or uh Dog Day Afternoon anymore, but he's so good in this. It's yeah, it's not an over-the-top character. He gives the character a lot of um uh uh uh gravity and nuance, like some of the little expressions that he puts on. Like there's a scene later in the movie when he is confronting Donnie about possibly being a rat and the hurt on his face as he's staring at Donnie thinking, Am I the sucker? You know, like I think he's I think he's great in this, and I I think that it his his character and the way that Petrino portrays him kind of makes this movie what it is for me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. And I think really lends itself, as I had mentioned, where it won me over with with dialogue and the way it's portrayed, even in that scene you're mentioning. Um, I really like kind of his expression when he's he's putting the gun to his head, and that kind of like, as you mentioned, hurt and that even that like is partial line delivery, but also no lines, it's all acting through emotion, which is really good as well. Um, and what I found really complex about his character, when you first meet him, you think, okay, he's so he's kind of like a big shot. Like when you first see him in the diner, like, okay, he's a well-to-do gangster. And then you learn, like, no, he's kind of at the bottom of the food chain in what's happening, and a lot of that uh reveals itself through not necessarily knowing if the diamond is real, also like trying to get at uh the the wires underneath the car and the screw, like like most mob bosses are not gonna do stuff like that. So I like those scenarios that that portray where he's at.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, you know, it's it's not a theme that's unique to this movie. Um, you know, other mob movies, you know, stuff like the departed and whatnot definitely delve into this, but you know, nevertheless, it's good to see um the kind of like different layers of paranoia that these characters have to have, given that not only, you know, with one of them being an undercover guy who's trying to pull stuff over on all the rest of them and with very high stakes, but there's never, you know, despite all the rules and stuff that this world has about like you know, you you know, you don't touch a made guy, you know, like all the layers of stuff, they're still backstabbing and plotting and factions, regardless, right? So paranoia is just like all over the place and stories like this one.
SPEAKER_02Definitely. Uh Jason is saying, really like Al Pacino, never got the hype over Scarface. I've never seen Scarface, um, so I can't really attest to it. I know that you're not the biggest fan.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, uh, that was made by Brian De Palma, and Brian De Palma um is gosh, how do I what do I say? Brian De Palma is like a sleazy Hitchcock. Like if Hitchcock could be be like, you know, and not that I think that they're necessarily on the same level, uh, filmmaking wise, but you know, De Palma makes a lot of movies that are very much borrowing from stuff like psycho and whatnot. And um he just like took off that like you know mid-century politeness filter, and he's just a big old sleaze bag. Um so uh yeah, uh Scarface is way over the top, Pacino is way over the top in it. It's you know, big Miami, big cocaine, like you know, loud proclamations. I mean, you know the famous line, of course, saying hello to my little friend. Like, yeah, it's it's it's kind of a goofy movie.
SPEAKER_02Well, and yeah, I think uh there's a lot to be said about this movie, also in subtlety. Um you know, I felt like two there. This movie could have gone a couple ways, and one of them being more of in in essence, getting lost in like the mafia family itself, and just kind of doing like this is that classic, like all the gangsters are are kind of like seen as the people to look up to and admire, but there's very much a very cold code on what's happening in this movie, and uh I'm sure we'll get into it in terms of the ending and such like that, but I like the sincerity and I really liked kind of the the overall message of what's happening behind the scenes. Um, that partly too, as you follow the story, starts to unravel. Um, and it's not just a bunch of comedic. Like, I think I guess what I'm trying to say is like if Tarantino made this movie, it'd be a very different movie in terms of like that kind of delve right into the mafia side, and that's what we're looking at.
SPEAKER_01Such sort of so yeah, um, you know, I mean, it's there's a certain storytelling efficiency that I I like with the way they present the the mob world in this because Donnie is positioned as being a guy who's being brought into the fold, so it's a perfect excuse for um Lefty, Al Pacino's character, to uh explain to him, and by extension, us the audience, yes, what these rules are and you know uh uh the the the turt the terms that they use for things and you know all that kind of jazz. So, you know, pretty efficient movie making kind of stuff going on there.
SPEAKER_02Well, and two, uh for its efficiency in learning, okay, this is the world we're in, this is what you're being open to. The moments it takes his time, I think, are well deserved and are needed too, like that being with his family, that being with even like the couple's therapy moments, because we're also that is part of the story, it doesn't lose sight of itself of where we're going, so it spends a good amount of time on stuff like that. Yeah, um, the one thing I will say, and this could be a personal thing that left me a little bit uh confused, was how quickly Donnie is allowed to infiltrate and win the trust of Al Pacino. Like, I get it with the rain and stuff like that, but all of a sudden, like next day, okay, so I'm vouching for you, and all the that seemed a little sudden, but again, that could be a personal preference thing. What were your thoughts?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, I mean, coming off the heels of Little Caesar last week, or it was just like instant, you know. Yeah, I I I I I agree with you. I mean, I think that's probably also a little bit of storytelling expediency, you know, like to just get to the meat and potatoes of stuff. But I think part of it also in this specific movie is uh, and we see it revisited several times throughout the movie where um you know Lefty maybe has reasons to distrust Donnie uh or uh you know tries to push him away, uh, like when he's at the hospital when his uh uh son has had an overdose. Um uh I think it's just uh a fact in this story that um Lefty kind of falls for Donnie like in true bromance style, like you know, really likes this guy and you know, maybe sees a past better version of himself in Donnie and is you know trying to kind of like live vicariously through, you know, don't you know bringing this guy under his wing and stuff like that. I think that's probably part of the sort of speedy um okay, you know, path that that Donnie takes. But you know, it's probably also supposed to comment on how good um uh an agent he is at yeah you know worming his way into um uh you know the confidences of these guys. But yeah, you know, it's it's it's a movie doing movie things, it speeds up some stuff for sure.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Now, my take on the movie too. I'm curious to hear your thoughts. Um, a lot of informant films that I've seen in the bat past is kind of like the main part of like tension, suspense is like, will he be able to get out of this alive? And so the stakes get raised really high because he might be exposed, he might not. I feel like most of it is is he really going to take on and live the life of Donnie Brasco, or is he going to live the life of a Pistone and his family? And so the moments that he's supposed to have with his family, the trust moments get stolen for his love for this lifestyle of Donnie Brasco and how he gets pulled on. He feels commitment, he feels guilt, he feels all these things that his family is railing at him for. And I think that's really the crux of the story. They're telling a story. Based on based on true events, um, of this informant, but really the struggle of what happens when you get pulled in that deep.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's it's one of those things that you know he almost certainly didn't expect. Uh, you know, I was just commenting a minute ago about how um uh lefty uh loves Donnie. And I think the thing that Donnie didn't expect is that he would feel the same in reverse.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And you know, we see him a couple times in the movie try to help Lefty get out of the life, you know, try to convince him that he can, you know, hey, I got a bag of money, you can go buy that boat right now. Um, because despite the fact that yes, this guy is you know a multiple murderer and rips people off, you know, kind of a drain on society, not a good person, but he's still a human being. And I think that's what this is really getting at is that you know, um, the the men who uh typically men who you know um uh live these lives, you know, kind of get ensnared by the whole thing to the point that it's very easy to dismiss their humanity. And um Donnie Brasco comes face to face with it, and you know, we see that reflected in the end of the movie where uh he gets his crappy little $500 check and stupid little metal in this tiny office, and nobody's there, and it it his victory feels like a failure.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's it's such a great moment. Um, it's such a hard thing to watch, but even down to the like just the minor things they decided to add to that moment, like when the guy's like you can just tell he's reading through his lines, he's just I want to get through it. The guys are putting this metal on his podium. Oh, yeah, yeah, thanks, thanks, thanks. It's such an afterthought, and that that it's such a chuckle, too, with all the money being trade hands, and here's your $500 check. Yeah, um, it's crazy. And and I will say, too, props to um the the actress playing his wife and the kids because the the looks on their faces is so like burning question was that worth it? Yeah, and you just see he's just done. Um and yeah, so very well executed. And I think what I enjoy too is the scenarios that we see Donnie get into to infiltrate this uh gang to gain the trust are all the family events he's supposed to be doing with a normal family, like spending Christmas and having conversations with Christmas, having a vacation in Miami, and I love like the the cuts back and forth, the difference. Well, he's here in Miami, they're all do going off of like water slides, and then we cut to a very snowy New York. Um, yeah, intentionality like that is something I think that really bumps this movie up for me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I appreciate that about it too. And um, you know, I think there's some good moments uh where when we see Donnie attempt to uh Donnie Joe, whatever you want to call him, uh attempt to go home and still try to maintain uh you know some semblance of being a husband and father. Um, sometimes successfully, sometimes not. Um there is one aspect of that storyline though that does bother me a little bit, and it's not entirely this movie's fault because it's sort of a trope that you know gets used a lot. Um but uh it is nevertheless, you know, maybe a little bit too um basic and easy to have the wife be the person at home who's upset and doesn't understand what the husband is doing off in this secretive job. Uh, I think you know maybe another pass on the script could have given her a little bit more nuance, and not that they treat her completely like a stereotype like the you know uh bleaguered wife stereotype, but there is an element of it there. And part of me wishes that the movie could have been a little bit more elegant with the way that it handles her. I think it evolves reasonably well, you know, throughout the movie, some of the discussions they have, but maybe a little like one step too simplified for me.
SPEAKER_02No, I think I see what you're saying for sure. Yeah, it's it's a little it probably the lazier moments of this movie, it's kind of just like, well, that's kind of how it is. Um, and you're right, it probably would have enriched their kind of dynamic a bit more, but uh it wasn't so much to where it was holding me back from the action, so I'll give it that, but I definitely see what you're talking about for sure.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, and you know, I mean, I again, like I said, I hadn't seen this movie in a long time. And um, when I was watching it last night, there's the first couple scenes where she expresses that frustration. I was like, Oh wow, this is like really heavy-handed with the the stereotype of this sort of wife character. But then as the movie went on, there was more scenes with them where I was like, okay, they do flesh it out a little bit more than I yeah, yeah. I was giving it credit for it, it still could be better, but worth noting, I think.
SPEAKER_02No, for sure. Um, I think part of what I enjoyed on some of their uh altercations, like in the beginning, is the fact that the complaint is that there are cereal boxes in every drawer. Like yeah, what what what is sort of uh very tropey in that aspect would be just kind of like the him and ha. Let's talk about what's really bothering us. But when a movie really will uh kind of dive into real like life issues within a marriage, and that being like you don't close drawers, you do close doors, you don't wash dishes, and that frustration manifests that way. I I do kind of like it. Um I agree. I I know what you're talking about. Um, very quickly, let's check in on the El Mago jug in terms of flavor notes. I'm coming, I mean it's a smaller ish cigar, but it's a good burn right now, good slow burn. Coming to about second, third, anything changing, anything popping out?
SPEAKER_01Um I think uh, and it might be the influence of the whiskey, which by the way, this is not a bad pairing. Um I feel like that slight um sourness that I was hinting at earlier is maybe a little amplified now.
SPEAKER_02I could see that. Yeah, it's got almost like an herbal aspect to it. Um, or honestly, uh like a uh must, and this could be just because of living in uh North Carolina, but um kind of like a musty, like soaked wood, like when like wood is outside, like a plank of wood. I'm getting some of that, those earthier tones that are more musty. Um hints of sweetness, good amount of spice still happening as well. But but yeah, something vegetal, something soury, also in there, but a fair amount.
SPEAKER_01I I wouldn't say barnyard musty, but like I said, that kind of like wet earth, wet well, and I I still I still go back to that that musty book thing, too.
SPEAKER_02With yeah, yeah, yeah. So nice, really nice burn too. Uh great construction, which is really great. Um, I agree. This is the type of cigar when I smoke it that I want to just it pulls you all the way in. Like while we're talking about the movie and stuff, it's one of those cigars. I'll I'll smoke it and then keep going back to it. Like, wow, that's really interesting. And I really like how heavy and full it is on flavor and body, but I would say strengthwise, maybe medium, medium plus. I wouldn't say it's crazy.
SPEAKER_01Um, I I will say uh one of the things that I am enjoying about this is we're you know, kind of like reaching for what you know, what are these flavor notes and stuff? You know, the easiest summary I can give uh of it right now is that um this this what do we say? The is this is a Maduro, yes.
SPEAKER_02Yes, Mexican San Andreas Maduro.
SPEAKER_01I've never tasted a Maduro like this before.
SPEAKER_02Nice. There you go. Well, and I think that that's part of what I enjoy about this tin series because the Calvary, which Cavalry, which I'm sure we'll sure we'll smoke by next week, is a Corojo, Nicaraguan Corojo, but it's not unlike a lot of Corojos I've had out there, and with their kind of exploration in this tin series, limited edition series, I like that they're stretching to do that. Like here's a Maduro, but a different kind, or a Corojo, but a different kind. I appreciate it, and not the easiest thing to do in this size format. I feel like Robustos don't have the longest transitions, uh, but the complexity and the overall flavor note, I think it's something to be said about it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I agree.
SPEAKER_02Um, okay, so we've kind of talked about plot points, Al Pacino, and such. What about Johnny Depp's performance overall as this character?
SPEAKER_01Uh I I I do like him in this. Uh, you know, I mean, I think that uh, and you know, maybe some credit goes to the script too. Um, but he does a good job of making this guy's competence at um uh you know being a um an actor because that's what you have to do as an undercover agent, is convince people that you're somebody that you're not. Um I I think they make it believable in this. And uh I also like that you know there are multiple times where he gets in trouble, like when they go to that um uh uh Japanese restaurant and he refuses to take his shoes off. You know, he's he's gets an uh-oh moment and he's gotta figure out like, you know, what do I do or say to not get you know revealed here? And the the way that he plays those moments, just subtly enough so that as the audience we understand, he's like, Oh crap, I gotta do something, but not so big that it like you know, the other guys be like, Donnie, what's wrong? Why are you making that face? Like, why do you look so suspicious? So, um, I think that overall, the he's like I said, I still for me the performance of the movie is Al Pacino, but Depp is very good in it too.
SPEAKER_02Yes, I I would agree. I um like to, and this is part of script, but also just kind of Johnny Depp doing his thing, is that you see his comfortability evolve as he gets deeper and deeper, and he goes from this sort of like, okay, kind of like watch how far can I push Lefty? How much can I ask him? How much can I be curious? How much can I not? Right to about three-quarters of the way in the movie when they're in Miami, and he's kind of like turning in some of the recorded tapes, and he's talking to Paul Giamatti and the other guy helping him out, and he takes on this role of let me educate you what it's like in this lifestyle about forget about it and stuff like those transitions, you can see it manifesting in who he's becoming, which I think is a subtle thing, and not everyone could probably pull off to the degree that he doesn't.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um, which by the way, I I'd completely forgotten that Paul Giamatti was in this. I was like, hey, look, that was back when he was still like you know taking bit parts and stuff. Um, but yeah, um, well, I mean, I like that scene because just you know the whole forget about it uh explanation is fun and funny. Um but uh yeah, you're right. It's it it shows um you know the degree of kind of like you know cultural sort of you know education that he has to undertake to live and operate in this world and feel like a believable part of it. So yeah, it's good.
SPEAKER_02And and another another moment I feel like that involuntarily it starts to take him over is he starts talking to the like like in that same accent. His wife's like, I married a college graduate, right? Yeah, listen to him now, and just he doesn't even know it's coming out, um, which I thought was was pretty cool too. So I think there's there's subtleties to that too. Likewise, when you had mentioned Al Pacino's performance in the car at the end, you can see Donnie's struggle is oh shit, like how do how do I explain this away at the same time? Like, I'm trying we have a limited amount of time here, man. Like, I'm trying to get you out. Please take the money and get out. And so the amount of stress that starts showing up on him uh is really good too. So overall, I think he did a great job.
SPEAKER_01Um what do you uh what do you think of some of the you know, because there's lots of secondary characters in this. You've got Michael Madsen as Sonny Black, there's you know, his whole crew with Bruno Kirby, and there's a guy named Paulie, which by the way, one of the most unsettling moving moments in the movie is after they've killed Sonny Red and his crew, and that character Pauly comes out and sits behind Donnie in the car and just sits there breathing for a short while.
SPEAKER_00It's like anyway.
SPEAKER_01What do you think of like the that whole kind of like secondary group of characters?
SPEAKER_02Um, I think that they did a good job. If we want to talk a little bit about trope, there's some tropey moments, sure. Um but it wasn't it wasn't too bad. Uh the guy who plays Nikki, Bruno Kirby. Yeah, um, I was like, this guy's like straight out of like 1940s, 1950s type of accent. Like his voice was amazing. Yeah. Um, and I liked how they kind of had I like the sections of gangster cruise in this, where it's like everyone has a certain like order in which they must follow. So this group is for this, and this group is for this, and within that, each and every one open person is on the food chain a certain way. So I liked those type of nuances. Um, Michael Madsen did a great job, and uh it was interesting not to hear his voice so you know um that scene that you mentioned, part of what I think makes it work so well is you're right, it's a high tension moment, but we're focused on Johnny Depp's face the entire time. Everything in behind is so you can't read what the other guy's thinking, and what that does so effectively is that is the POV of Johnny Depp, even though we're looking at his face straight on. I really like the execution of how that's yeah, yeah, it was good. Um, no we both thought it was well, I was gonna say we both thought it was comical because like uh one person dies, so then Sonny gets elevated to the next, and then the big boss dies. Now Sonny's the big boss, and it's just like people are just like, all right, that's fine. And it that was just a little bit crazy to me.
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, and I don't know how how you know relatively realistic that is compared to the way that you know would have happened in real life with these characters, or you know, didn't in other uh uh instances. It's probably a little um like sped up, you know, yeah, for the sake of the movie, but anyway.
SPEAKER_02Um good amount of cigar smoking in this movie. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, and you know, one of one of the things that was nice is that of course, you know, when we see the big boss, you know, guys uh introduced, they got you know, somebody throws a big coat around them, and they're they're all got this like leathery old man faces and a giant Cuban, probably cigar in their mouth. But then you've got uh um you know Bruno Kirby's character, who's one of these low life dudes, you know, he's also smoking cigars, so you know they're just all over the place.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Uh Jason is saying Depp was great in this and not a fictional character. Blow was another good film as well. I've actually never seen it.
SPEAKER_01I'm pretty sure I haven't seen that one either, although I I know the film that you're talking about. Yeah, I did. I think it's been too many years. I think so.
SPEAKER_02Um, but yeah, I uh what I appreciate too is a common way, another tropey thing to do in a movie format like this, is about I don't know, three quarters of the way, almost I would say at the crisis of this movie, they're all arrested for the thing going on down in Miami, and then it all dawns on them, okay, that there's a rat here. Yeah, and you immediately think, okay, so this is gonna shift the action to Johnny's got Donnie's got to be on his toes, they're gonna follow him home, they're gonna find out who he is, and instead they use that momentum to illustrate the coldness of this family, and that thing when Nikki gets shot, and then he uh Donnie and uh Lefty argue about it in the car, you know, say his name, you can't say his name because you're scared of it, and the telling line where Lefty's like Nikki was a rat because Sonny said he was a rat, okay, right, and like that, like uh, like how they just operate completely on different level, and you almost find out at that point of the movie, like Lefty is not getting out of this, there's no scenario.
SPEAKER_01Uh well, and he's he's got dialogue earlier in the film where he says, you know, um about getting called up, right? And uh, you know, uh that also when that kind of thing happens, it's your best friend that does it. And you know, regardless of how uh Lefty or anybody else felt about uh that guy as a friend, Sonny said he's gotta go, so he's gotta go. And that's just like the brutal kind of like compact that these guys have. And you know, I think it's because of that, you know, sort of the the rules of that world that it can be easy to dismiss the humanity of the those characters, which is why you know the way that um Lefty and Donnie relate to each other is such a big deal in this movie, and I think it's like the central focus of you know what this movie wants to say about why um uh this kind of work uh that Donnie Brasco is doing can be so soul draining because yeah, uh yeah, I mean I'm I'm probably gonna sound like a broken record. I I I just think that the way that Al Pacino humanizes his character is so good in this, and I uh we might as well cut to the chase. I um we talked earlier about how good it is that scene when um uh he gets his measly reward for having successfully you know infiltrated and you know got all these convictions and stuff. You know, good job, Pat on the back. Here's your crappy $500 check. That's the ending of the movie, and there's a part of me that wishes that the last shot of the movie was Lefty quietly putting his valuables in a drawer, yeah, telling his wife to not wait up for him as he leaves because he knows he's gonna go to his doom. Uh woof, what what what a what an ending that would have been if that him exiting the apartment in sadness, if that had been the end of the film, I would have loved that.
SPEAKER_02Well, and in the way it's set up, I actually thought it might end that way until you kind of cut to it. So no, I see what you're saying for sure. Um, another thing I will give this movie overall, as we put it in the category of gangster films that we were going through. I feel like a lot of movies in this same like sandbox that that gets made, really when it's when it's really like I guess no other way to put it, but like the cast is male heavy, and it can turn into kind of just that like romance with gangsters and the lifestyle and all that sort of thing. Um, but there's a lot of nuance, and there is a lot of interesting things that they do with these character arcs that make it, I guess, elevated from something like that, if that makes sense. I don't know if I'm pinpointing it the right way. Um, like I like Good Fellas a lot. It it's one of the few Scorsese films that I really, really enjoy. But I think it even could have maybe learned some things from this movie in the way these characters interact, just for me in for in terms of impressions.
SPEAKER_01No, I understand that. Um, yeah, I I I do like uh you know, generally that you know, even though you know this is uh these are men who are living a lifestyle, they're kind of like you know subverting the rules of society to you know, um, you know, try to basically just make a living. Um, I don't know that this movie ever makes it seem glamorous, right? Even when they're down doing the Miami stuff, it's all just such a big facade, and you know, they have to beg and borrow uh a boat just to show off for this guy so they get the abscam boat, you know, like you know, despite all the money and prestige and everything, these are still guys that are just kind of like scrapping at the edge of society and barely kind of getting by like the like the rest of us, they've just decided to do it um, you know, illegally. Um I I kind of like that aspect of it too, that you know, yeah, even though um you know there's no like you know, Goodfellas moment where they're all like you know, living super high, like you know, look, where I can I I'm the man wherever I go, and I can go into this club and they give me a table right at the front. Yeah, like it all fit like you never really get a sense that these guys are really seeing the fruits of all their their labor, I guess. You know, like yeah, I I I kind of like that again, there's there's a big theme of sadness in this. Yes, and I think that's just another component of it.
SPEAKER_02Well, and the only montage that comes close to something like that is like at Sonny's place, and they have a couple of singers happening, and they're like, Yeah, yeah, but it's a very sedated version of what you were mentioning, which I yeah, I enjoy. And they're all of them are unhappy with the position that they're in. Um well, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I mean, there's there's those scenes where they talk about like, you know, what do you got going on? What do you got going on? And there's you know, one guy who's like, you know, I gotta know a guy who's got a truck full of razor blades, it's just like you know, it's just like these piddly little things, anyway. Go ahead.
SPEAKER_02No, no, no, exactly. Uh and I also think that's reflected in their quote-unquote hideout, like it's kind of just a rinky-dink falling apart place. Uh, Lefty is in a like crammed New York apartment, uh, watching something on a crappy like TV. And I really uh like the nostalgia, but also good art design with you have these recorded from TV VHS tapes that are like crowding the TV, stuff like that. It's like, yeah, this is not this is not what it's cracked up to be. He's drinking wine from a highball glass, like yes, and so those I think are the things that kind of go unnoticed uh in terms of like enriching your environment. And uh I appreciate those things for sure.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, and that there's that scene where they where uh uh Donnie goes to Lefty's uh uh apartment for Christmas, and uh uh you know he's in that hilarious like velour tracksuit kind of thing. And uh I this again, it's another great character moment that they put it in the script also of Pacino's performance. How locked in he is watching that nature program cracks me up.
SPEAKER_02So on a on a side. Side note when you had mentioned hey, I want to talk about Donnie Brasco. Uh, I didn't know anything about this movie, but I did watch an interview with Johnny Depp like a couple months ago about talking about Al Pacino, and I was like, Oh, I didn't know he was in a movie with that. I'd even look up what movie it was, and he was like, Yeah, Al Pacino is like a good actor, but he's crazy. He's like, he got to the point I didn't want to be in the same room with him alone. Okay, it's like I kind of I could I could see that, like you can kind of see maybe maybe method acting or such like that, but it's like for Johnny Depp to say that, okay. Yeah, no kidding.
SPEAKER_01Uh out of all the people to say that, yeah, that's funny.
SPEAKER_02But um, yeah, overall, I was I was very happy with it. Um, and I think in its own way, it tells a really good story of you reap what you sow, uh, and what they were reaping from what they sowed was not pretty, and I appreciate it. But it also it also shows the duality of what Donnie Brasco and Joe uh Pistone was actually reaping from what he had sown and what he had chosen to do, and it's just that look of being robbed of time and emotional right.
SPEAKER_01Uh, and yeah, and and the what I'm about to say is not meant to be as a uh condemnation of the movie we watched last week, Little Caesar. It's just you know, shows you it's you know, kind of further emphasizes the point I was making when we watched that last week, where it's like, you know, I see what this movie's doing, it's playing on a very kind of like arch broad level, and uh I'm just I've seen too many movies in this milieu where uh you know there's more kind of texture to the characters in movies like this is what I was talking about because um uh uh uh what's his name, Rico from uh Little Caesar, you know, he's not humanized as a uh like fully realized character anywhere near to the level that Lefty is in Donnie Brasco. You know, even though there's that great moment where he you know has that crisis of confidence and can't kill his friend at the end, and that's how he kind of falls into ruin. Um, you know, it's still a very broad character, the way that it's presented in that movie, stylistically appropriate for it, but nevertheless, the way that characters like Lefty in this movie are presented, like that's really my jam when it comes to this genre.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and um, I think it I would agree with that and goes back to kind of what I was saying earlier. Um, I think it's a better representation of a gangster movie and pulling you in the tension, and really it's not a lofty movie, like they don't go for massive like gun shootout massacres and explosions and such like that, but it has it had my interest all the way through. Um and so yeah, story-wise, acting wise, I I give it a thumbs up. Great movie, right on, man. Yeah. Um, okay, let's talk final third on El Mago Jug. Um, I'm not getting a total difference in flavor profile, but um, curious your thoughts.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think that we're we're kind of in the same zone as we were when we checked in last time, but that zone is a good zone. Like I like I said, um, I I don't know that I've ever smoked a Maduro or maybe anything that has quite, you know, we've brought up flavor notes tonight, like you know, musty old book that I've never thought to like hey, that's what that's what this cigar tastes like. So that's cool. I like when I get you know new, unique flavors off of something. So um I'm digging this. You said you said you don't have any left. Unfortunately, no. Dang it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it it was a very, very small number, but I was like, I want to save enough for the variety, have people try it.
SPEAKER_01Um it probably would be the uh like not a a good look and maybe confusing if I just called them up and say, Hey, do you have any more jugs? Start calling around for jugs. Give me the jugs.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, maybe not. But um, I think I think that spicy element, I I will say, if anything, this is like straight up cinnamon to me. There's there's baking spice, mustiness, like you were saying, but it's not pepper, it's cinnamon, uh, which adds whenever I think of notes of cinnamon, yes, it's a little bit spicy, but there's this like little zing of sweetness that follows at the end of it, which I think ties it together really well.
SPEAKER_01I agree. So and and by the way, like I said, it pairs nicely with rye. This is good.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna have to try that for sure. Um, yeah, I would say a close second. Like if someone's like, hey, I like I like this cigar, it's really good, then I would say maybe possibly try the Miami from El Mago or try the new James Avenue Maduro. That's gonna be somewhat close, I think. Okay, not gonna be the exact same, but close. Um, but okay, so on a scale from one to ten, let's let's rate the jug. Um blank sticky note. Yes, I don't know if we're gonna know if we're gonna do it again. We shall see. All right, I have my answer written down after it was on a blank note. Oh, close. Okay, eight eight point five. Yeah. Um this is a cigar that I would like to talk about humidor if I could. It's it's up there for sure. Yeah, I agree. It's nice. Okay, and then rating Donnie Brasco from a scale from one to ten. Where does that lie?
SPEAKER_01I'm gonna uh be uh efficient here, and I'll just use the same note.
SPEAKER_02Oh, there you go. I put a 7.8, so it's just below an eight, but it's it's about there. Um yeah, this was a really good movie. Far better than untouchables, I'll give it that.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, uh, I I I definitely feel more draw to re-watch this, and it's it's just it's it's you know, again, untouchables and even Lil' Caesar, they're both kind of you know pulpy and kind of broad and not as interested in the internal human lives of the characters, and they don't necessarily have to be, right? You know, not all movies have to do that, but just for me, what I like to get out of uh stories for me, almost always the biggest thing is characters, and yes, you know, um, you know, do you have interesting characters that feel like fully realized people that have inner lives and complexity and all that kind of stuff? And you know, there's lots of good characters in this, but I I this might be like one of Al Pacino's last like really great performances. Yeah, I think the the character is filled with so much um sadness and yearning, and you know, uh this push and pull between what he wants and what he feels like he has to do based on the rules of this world that he's chosen to live in. Uh, it's such a complicated character, and I think he knocks it out of the park.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I would agree. And I agree too with your assessment about uh character-driven story. Um, and that could be I could be wrong, but I mean it's no secret I'm not the biggest Corsese fan, but I do feel like sometimes he sacrifices what you could invest in character and more for spectacle and ensemble as a whole. Um, but also, too, like we you had mentioned uh the name Alfred Hitchcock came up earlier. I like Hitchcock films, he's not the best at character-driven movies.
SPEAKER_01Um, he is he's very he's very he's very premise driven.
SPEAKER_02I was just about to say that he's very premise built on all of his movies. Um, and it's not a horrible thing, but you're right. I think it's more enriching when you do invest in the characters and you move your story that way. So yeah, yeah, this movie hadn't spades. I'm glad you recommended it. Good. So um this concludes our gangster series. Um, we have uh we have familiar face. Texas Taurus is back on. Hey, what's up? Haven't seen him in a minute. How are you doing, man? He says the new He-Man was good. And Jason says, I saw He-Man today. It was fun, really enjoyed it. Well, there you go. Speaking of going to the theater, that is what we're gonna be doing for next uh series. We're gonna be talking about a specific director, uh, but we're gonna be going to the theater to talk about the Odyssey by Chris Nolan. We are either to my detriment or or uh happiness, we're gonna be doing a month of Chris Nolan movies. Um, you know, I wonder since Chris Nolan he didn't direct it, but he was involved in Batman v Superman. I wonder if that could count.
SPEAKER_01Don't you dare.
SPEAKER_02No, I'm kidding. But uh yeah, no, I I'm interested to talk about the Odyssey with you. This nearly three-hour movie. See your thoughts. Uh, it is, I mean, as like was with Oppenheimer, it's like one of the biggest movies of the year, I feel like. So it'll be interesting.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, and also, you know, um one of the most, if not the most, like, you know, classic stories of the Western fiction canon, forget about it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, next uh next month we're jumping into Chris Nolan movies. We're gonna be talking about Chris Nolan movies. If you guys have any uh thoughts or comments or movies you want us to talk about, then reach out, let us know, and we'll see what people would like us to talk about. We'd love to to do that. But um, thanks again, Curtis. I'm glad you recommended Donnie Brasco. Uh, it was a great movie to watch and glad to hang out and talk about it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, man. Everybody have a good night.
SPEAKER_02All right, everyone have a good night. We will see you next Tuesday on Cigars and
