Is it possible to begin grieving a loss after 30 years?
Join us as we delve into the profound impact of grief on our lives and the importance of opening up the conversation surrounding it.
Judy Lipson is the author of Celebration of Sisters: It Is Never Too Late To Grieve, winner of Literary Titan’s 2021 Silver Award.
The sole survivor of three sisters, Judy founded Celebration of Sisters, an annual ice-skating fundraiser benefiting Massachusetts General Hospital, and as a way to commemorate the lives and memories of her beloved sisters Margie and Jane.
Judy was the keynote speaker at The Bereaved Parents USA Conference in 2023, presented at The Compassionate Friends National Conference, appeared on The Open to Hope cable television program, and is a ForGrief speaker.
Her passion for figure skating secured the recipient of U.S. Figure Skating Association 2020 Get Up Award.
In her recent memoir, Judy states, “there is no recipe for grief. The instant you suffer a loss, your life is changed.”
Join us as we explore Judy's story of regaining her balance on the ice skating rink and in life after loss.
Judy Lipson Social and Website:
Nina Rodriguez Social & Website:
Disclaimer
#griefandlight #griefandlightpodcast
Want to sponsor an episode? Contact us via info@griefandlight.com.
Thank you for listening! Please share with someone you love.
Want your story featured in a podcast episode?
Please contact me via IG @griefandlight, via email at nina@griefandlight.com.
Is it possible to begin grieving a loss after 30 years?
Join us as we delve into the profound impact of grief on our lives and the importance of opening up the conversation surrounding it.
Judy Lipson is the author of Celebration of Sisters: It Is Never Too Late To Grieve, winner of Literary Titan’s 2021 Silver Award.
The sole survivor of three sisters, Judy founded Celebration of Sisters, an annual ice-skating fundraiser benefiting Massachusetts General Hospital, and as a way to commemorate the lives and memories of her beloved sisters Margie and Jane.
Judy was the keynote speaker at The Bereaved Parents USA Conference in 2023, presented at The Compassionate Friends National Conference, appeared on The Open to Hope cable television program, and is a ForGrief speaker.
Her passion for figure skating secured the recipient of U.S. Figure Skating Association 2020 Get Up Award.
In her recent memoir, Judy states, “there is no recipe for grief. The instant you suffer a loss, your life is changed.”
Join us as we explore Judy's story of regaining her balance on the ice skating rink and in life after loss.
Judy Lipson Social and Website:
Nina Rodriguez Social & Website:
Disclaimer
#griefandlight #griefandlightpodcast
Want to sponsor an episode? Contact us via info@griefandlight.com.
Thank you for listening! Please share with someone you love.
Want your story featured in a podcast episode?
Please contact me via IG @griefandlight, via email at nina@griefandlight.com.
Nina: Is it possible to begin grieving a loss after 30 years? In this episode, we delve into the profound impact of grief in our lives and the importance of opening up the conversation surrounding it. Today, we're honored to have Judy Lipson as our guest. She is the author of Celebration of Sisters. It Is Never Too Late to Grieve, which is the winner of literary Titan's 2021 Silver Award. The sole survivor of three sisters, Judy founded Celebration of Sister as an annual ice skating fundraiser benefiting Massachusetts General Hospital and as a way to commemorate the lives and the memories of her beloved sisters, Margie and Jane. Judy was the keynote speaker at the Bereaved Parents USA conference in 2023. She presented at the Compassionate Friends National Conference and appeared at the Open to host cable television program. And she is a for grief speaker. Her passion for figure skating secured the recipient of U.S. Figure Skating Association in 2020, the Get Up award. And in her recent memoir, Judy states, there is no recipe for grief. The instant you suffer a loss, your life has changed. I think as listeners who have experienced grief, we can all resonate with that. I am honored to welcome you to the Grief and Light podcast with us today, Judy Lipson.
Nina, thank you for having me. Thank you for your podcasts and thank you for being brave and sharing your story and yourself with all of us. Thank you so much and I appreciate you saying his name. Let's start at the beginning. Your story is beautiful in it with all the beauty that grief brings along with it. So it's painful. It has loss, but it is really a beautiful way to honor the lives of your sisters. Take us back to the beginning, 30 plus years ago where you were 25 years old and your life forever changed. Yes, actually, it's almost 43 years ago. I'm 67 now, so I was 25 when my sister Jane, at age 22, was tragically killed in an automobile accident. And as we all know, your life is forever changed when you get that phone call or you find that person, whatever the circumstances are. And my sister Margie had been ill with anorexia and bulimia. So I got that call and I never dreamed that it would be changed. So Margie coincidentally was coming to visit me, so I had to be the one to tell her. And I was living in New York, my parents were in Boston, so I had a go home and my father sent me back to New York. So here I was, 25 years old with a career in retail at the height of the Christmas season. And. It didn't know what grief was. I didn't know who I was in my twenties and had no one to talk to. So I just kind of got on this treadmill of life in Squash The Grief. Nine years later, tragically, Markie, at age 35, died of anorexia and bulimia. And I was a mother, single mother at that time, raising two children. And again. I was taking care of everybody else. Squashed the grief. And the cycle went on. 30 years later, my father was dying of a tragic illness, and I knew it was going to be a huge loss. And it was kind of pushed me to finally grieve for Margie and Jane. After 30 years, the process was. Balancing. Probably the best gift I gave to myself, but probably the most grueling work I've ever done in my life. And then I decided that I wanted to honor my sisters. And so then I started the celebration of sisters, the skating fundraiser, because we all skated as sisters. And my sisters were fun and I wanted to do something. And I never realized the impact of the grief and what it had on my life. But by the same token, I wouldn't be where I am today, so it's kind of full circle. It's interesting how that works out, and there's not a single river that I know that. So this happened and thank you for the lessons. I wish it wouldn't have happened this way. So we get we gain so much after grief, after we do the work. However, it's at a very high cost. And if we wish, it wouldn't be this way. But you seem to have transmuted so much of that experience. And as you can tell through your book, well, let's go back a little bit. So for the listeners, you're the middle child. Jane was the youngest and Margie was the oldest. And from what I understand, you were on the Shi'a side and you were the the quieter sister of the of the three. Margie, I understand, was the more extroverted one. She was a cheerleader, and Jane was just the young child of all most young children there. They marched to the beat of their own drum. But unfortunately, Margie suffered from bulimia and the anorexia for many years. From what I understand, it was 20 years. Yes. And so when you got the news about Jane, you actually expected it to be Margie, not Jane necessarily, right? Yes. So the shock was devastating. And then having to tell Margie Margie and for it unfortunately spiral downward after that. You know, I think anybody who has a sibling, especially sisters, can understand that, you know, a sisterly bond is something even as sick as Margie was. We were always very close and she could always read me or hear hearing in my voice. And she used to call me lips and she'd go, you know, Listen, what's up with you? A friend of mine and I started a needlepoint business and Margie was it was just like a year or two before she died. She called to wish me good luck, which I don't remember, but my friend told me after all these years. So, I mean, that's the bond that sisters share. In Jane was Jane, you know, she was the baby, you know, who got away with murder. And I'd always, you know, torture her, but I'd get in trouble because I was the older sister. So, yeah, you're right. I was the middle squash between the two of them and kind of got lost in the shuffle as a lot of middle children do. And you looked up to Margie quite a bit. And at some point I believe you even shared a room with her. So you had that extra close bond? Yeah, I shared a room with Jane, my younger sister. But Margie, I used to rearrange her room. She'd go, lipstick. Come on, let's rearrange my room. And I'd. She'd say, Jump. And I'd say, how I and I go, one would understand losing Jane. And when Margie found out and you said that, just completely put her in a spiral that ultimately nine years later ended up in her own passing. How did the loss of Jane differ from the loss of Margie in terms of your coping abilities or experience with grief with Margie? I always knew that her life was in peril so many times, so I sort of knew, but I didn't know. But it was still a shock. And I was a mother when Margie died, so I could understand more sort of what my parents were going through, the pressure on me more to be there for my parents in the burden of taking care of them was greater after Margie died than when Jane died. So I never had time to even think about me or my grief got greater after Margie died with Jane. I think I just. I was younger and I was in this crazy retail career and going that when I look at back now, I would just kind of zone out at work and I was probably going through grief but I didn't know what it was. I just kept going at this pace and I would get really tired and you know, somebody who was so in control of my life and I do remember going back to work for the first time and I started to shake. I was grieving, but I didn't know that I was crazy. And two things I want to highlight. Their grief is such a physical experience. I was very surprised by that. I don't think many people understand how physically it manifests. So the shaking is, and you said that back then, you didn't understand it, but that is such an intense experience that really, no pun intended, but shakes you to your core and trying to understand what's happening. Because the shaking feels like here you are in your body and yet you're not in control of it. And that's a lot of the experience of grief. And the second thing is, you were 25. You were starting your career, you had a busy schedule with the holidays. And from what I understand, your boss was, let's just say, not very supportive of this very difficult period in your life. Could you say a little bit more about that? Now, it was Christmas season and retail, so the sales, you know, were contingent on that intense six week period. So no empathy if I cried or, you know, wasn't 100%. I remember I called my dad and I said I was crying and I said, I can't do this. He kind of kept the family together because my mother was completely falling apart. And I don't even remember what he said. I had just power through. I mean, I couldn't fall apart. It was not it was not an option. I just I had to be strong. I couldn't do it, you know, as much as I could. I went back and forth to Boston. You're dealing with your own grief and also looking out for your parents. You said your mother especially had a very hard time. I'm sure your father did, too. But there's more pressure for him to just be that pillar that everybody can rely on at that time. I want to read this excerpt from your book. It says, There will come a time when you won't remember your sister, she said softly. Her words stayed with me for three decades. I often felt tortured because I could not remember everything about my sisters after they passed. A week after Jane died, I was still in a complete fog, unable to believe my sister was gone. Yet I was whisked back from my life in New York City. I think my father wanted me to resume my normal life and separate me from my mother, whose grief left her hanging by a thread. And I think that's what you're you're speaking about. And it just shows you how much pressure there is in a situation where we ourselves don't understand quite what's happening. And yet there's this very intense pressure to keep it all together for each other while each person has their own grief to deal with. Right. And that goes back to, I think in one of your episodes, you say people don't know what to say and they say things to you and they don't realize the impact that it has on you in hindsight. Now, I mean, that was just such a jarring comment to say to me, because by my squashing the grief and my parents unable to talk about my sisters because it was too painful to them, a lot of the memories were loss. And that did haunt me, you know, when I went to therapy and looked at the pictures. But the truth be told, are we really going to remember everything? Like what? Their favorite color, which is that really matter? It doesn't really matter. But it was something that really haunted me. And I, you know, I couldn't remember. And now I can look at the pictures and I'm like this love in the pictures, the way we're holding each other, the smiling at each other. And I looked at the picture of Marcia at a birthday party and my oldest grandson. There's such a resemblance. I mean, those are the things that I need to remember. I don't need to remember every minor detail. And it took me a long, long time to make some peace with that. I understand that. I hear that loud and clear because after we've done some work and after we've had some time to process, we realize what's truly important. But especially at that very beginning stage, everything feels important and everything feels enormous. Funny you say the example about the color. I remember crying because I didn't know what my brother's favorite color was, and I said, How did he die? And I don't even know his favorite color. And you know, in the grand scheme of things, it's not really that important. But I hear you when you say that, because in the moment it does feel that an important and I also know the episode you're referring to if people say the darndest things and as a griever, people are trying to console you in the best way that they know how. I have compassion for that now, but in the moment it could be very jarring. And in my case, I had a colleague say, Well, now that you're an only child, what are you going to do with that? And I don't even know what she said after that. I just heard, Well, now that you're an only child, the shift in your sense of identity after a loss can be very traumatic. The. Can be very hurtful. But like we were talking right before the show, you now say I am one of three sisters. Whereas maybe before it would have been the hardest question to answer. So could you tell us a little bit about that experience, how that's shifted for you over the years? You know, when Jane died, you know, I went through it. Well, who am I now? Am I the youngest now? And then when March, I am I the only child? I mean, as the middle child, I was always backstage and now I didn't want to be the center focus. Like what? What is this? I don't want this. You know, when people would ask me that infamous question, how many siblings do you have that we all hold our breath or our heart skips a beat in? How do we answer this and what do you answer to? You know, if you're out on a date for the first time, what do you say? And for a lot of years, I just said, it's just me. And again, after a lot of years and a lot of therapy, but that's not the truth. So I finally said in the middle of Syria and sadly, I lost both my sisters because the truth is, I am always the middle child. I am always the middle of three, and my sisters are always part of me, past, present, and the future. And I need them always with me. You know, even though they're not physically here, they are very much a part of who I am, past president and who I will continue to be. I resonate with that. And it's been four and four years, three months and a week for me. And I still struggle with how to answer that question. I love hearing how other siblings in this position have dealt with it and how they get to a point of peace. I don't know if you call it peace, but equanimity with that statement and they can just say it more confidently, like yourself, the way that you're presenting it. So thank you for that. When Margie passed, you said you felt pressure to be the sunshine in your parents life to essentially help them with everything, make them happy. And can you speak a little bit about that experience, how that was impacted once you learn that? S forward 30 years, your your father with his health, with feeling, you spent most of that time trying to help your parents, especially your mom, get through all of this. And then 30 years later, that shifts once your dad gets a certain diagnosis. Walk us through that time period, please. So I you know, I felt that it was just me. So I felt like I almost had to be the daughter for three. Then I got married, got divorced, had two daughters. And my daughters clearly brought light to my parents. So I felt, you know, we always had to be with them. And there were times when I was just need break, but I kept going because I felt, you know, they needed this, you know? And they were also very good to us, too. It was a lot of pressure being the only one and knowing the situation and knowing how much these girls meant to them. And they gave them life essentially after losing two daughters and having a daughter who was sick. So my father was the anchor that held the family together and his loss, coupled with my best friend who was dying as well, all on the same time. And I knew I had seen a therapist on and off. And she kept saying, you know, you've got to deal with the losses of your sisters. But I knew this was going to be a tremendous, tremendous loss. And it was finally time for me to take charge and deal with the loss of my father. So when he died, I started the work and watching him fail was heart wrenching. And we knew what the outcome was. It was a neurological illness and knew the outcome was going to be. And as much as it's a natural trajectory that you're going to lose a parent before you're going to lose a sibling, it was a huge loss and I knew that I had to do this work. You know, I've changed a lot since I've done the work. My family had a big adjustment because for the first time in my life, I started taking care of me, which was a very big shift. But it was important work. It was very, very challenging. It was a great gift and I've met incredible people along the way, so I'm grateful that I did finally do the work. After all the years when your dad was passing, there were a lot of changes happening. Like you said, you started to take care of yourself. From my understanding, when somebody asked you about your sisters that you felt blocked from speaking about them. That started to shift with this diagnosis and understanding that you were going to lose your father. And with every loss comes a change in dynamics and an identity and new rules that are, in a way sort of reassign your role with your mother, etc.. You started the dating. Well, before we go there, what I want to get to is that your father passed one week before you did your first event. So you had this confluence of events at the same time that were very emotional, very tied to your sister, very tied to your family, to the changes that happened in the past and the ones that were upcoming. Talk to us a little bit about the skating initiatives, the fact that it's in November. From what I understand, it's Judy birthday and the anniversary of her passing and Margie's birthday as well. But November is a key time. 2011, the celebration of Sisters, the ice skating fundraiser. All this is happening, and you also lose your father. Talk to us about that time. You know, I was torn because obviously my father was declining. And, you know, we never knew what how. So I had planned it in November, like you said, because Jane's birthday is the sixth. She died on the seventh and March's birthday is the eighth. So the first year, it wasn't a skating event. It was just kind of like a cocktail party launching it as a celebration of sisters. Fortunately, my father passed away the week before, and against my family's wishes, I went ahead because I felt I still had to honor my sisters. And in my heart, I knew my father would want me to do it. And I felt it was important. To set the stage for this important event in honor of my sisters. The following year we started skating because we all this girl started as kids, and I felt that they were fun and I wanted to give back to the hospital that had treated Mitchie and her family is very philanthropic and I wanted to do something fun because my sisters were fun and something that we connected and I skated, so mushroomed into quite a big event. I did it for a decade. It's kind of on pause right now. I'm a little older. I'm the grandmother of three. I broke my foot last year, so maybe we'll bring it back for my 70th. As you said, my I never talked about my sisters and now they were up front and center and my friends came. Janey's childhood friends came. One of my friends came are childhood friends that we've known, you know, our whole lives. And he saw me skating and he said, like tears in his eyes. And he said, When you were out there, you look just like March. And then I started to cry. I said, That's the biggest compliment you could have given me a couple of Jane's friends. I was touched by this support for a decade at people supported it all these years and I'm just very grateful. And it gave me a focus in a way to channel that November where I was so. With my grief and heart wrenching getting through that time. It really because the event really took a year to play and it gave me something, another thing to focus on. You know, I always say this is how we get to love them. Now they're not here in physical form, but sometimes through these acts of love and these celebrations of their life is what our continued warmth looks like in the after, in a sense. We get to know both of your sisters and your family through your work, through your story, through your performances, through all of these years of sharing them with us. And I think that is beautiful. That's how we get to carry them forward in our lives. And they get to live on in a way, because thanks to your work, we get to know them. That's very powerful. And I know that your mom was a little bit resistant to all of these beautiful acts of love that came from your heart. I believe she's still with us, correct? Yes, she does want to see that. Wow. That's amazing. Good for her. And she's still apprehensive or has she, you know, softened and embraced it over time? How has her grief shifted? It's hard. I mean, she lost two children and one with a 20 years with a mental illness. It's very hard on a parent, you know, anybody with a mental illness, it's it's very, very difficult. So, I mean, she came every year. And, you know, I can appreciate how difficult it was for her, but it's also something that I needed to do for my grief and for me and to honor my sisters and my way, keep them with me. And skating was a memory for me that I do remember. And it was a happy memory. And, you know, after so many not so great memories with Margie, this was one that I remember that she was really a great skater and it's a happy memory of all of us together and that the three of us share. It was my way of honoring them, and that's what's important to me. You decided on an ice skating and the first time you had, I believe it was 50 guests. And that's grown over the years. You've been able to raise $80,000 for the cause. And the last performance, which I believe was in 2021, you had almost 200 people in attendance with over 90 skaters. So tell us how that has evolved over the years. It just kept growing and growing and people loved it and it was a community event. I didn't have any, you know, big stars or whatever. I mean, I skated, I'm just a recreational, you know, I started later in life and doing it. I think people felt the love and the warmth and just love to be a part of it. It was a real community event for a great cause and people kept supporting it and were kind of disappointed that I, you know, stopped doing it. But we may bring it back. It's part of the grief evolution where it looks different every year. We have to honor that. And sometimes, you know, it is a lot of work to put these events together, but it sounds like people really appreciate it. And I know that some of their friends have been in attendance and you get to remember them and honor them and have that community again. I understand that the last performance you performed by yourself, you did a solo performance and you felt like they were with you. Could you talk a little bit about that and share that moment? I kind of feel like they're telling me, actually, you've got this like each one on my shoulder when I get out there and I just feel them when I'm on the ice. I mean, so nervous when I get out there. I like shaking like a leaf, but I just feel like they're out there and I can hear them giggling like the shine metal sister who is out there performing is just something I could never imagine that I would do. I would never talk to anybody. I was so shy. Here I am. Performing in front of 200 people is beyond my wildest dreams for performing and writing a book. You're an author. Your memoir is You are doing a live interview. Thanks to that, we get to connect with you and share your story. You know, it's bittersweet, obviously, but it's important. It's very important to share these stories. I want to talk to Judy, the author. What was that process like? You work with editors and you worked with a publisher that you really like, but what was that experience like? How did you decide what to put in the book, what to leave out? How did you decide which themes were most important for the story? And I ask that because in wanting to honor our loved ones, the everything is important or everything feels important, but we can't write absolutely every detail, or we would just have like an encyclopedia level novel. So how did you decide what was going in and what with staying out? I was very fortunate that unfortunately when my father died, I was in the support group and the woman suggested I start to write a meeting at 65 to get a book published just like a chart. And I had written for the Open to Help Foundation some articles. And when I fell on the ice and got a can. Caution. I couldn't do anything to listen to podcasts, and that's how I found a coach. And it took a village to help me write this book. A lot of editors and developmental artists is a wonderful publisher and all of that, and I wanted to write it to help another sibling so that they wouldn't be alone in their grief. And that's why I wrote it in, I'd hoped, being a very private person and sharing my story. I just hope I didn't want somebody to be alone and to also know that it's never too late to grieve. So I didn't reach out to any of my friends or Jane's friends. I just wanted it to be what I remembered. So I just wrote from my heart and what I remembered, which I share my journey and hope that it would help everybody else. And I didn't really go into my parents story because that was really my story. And my sisters. When we started their fund at Mass General Hospital, the doctors said to me, You know, you really need to write about your sisters because people really need to know who they are. So that was sort of in the back of my mind, too. So I try to remember stories and to share who they were and also to bring back some memories to me. I wanted to get the message across that it's really never too late to grieve. And I hope that in sharing my story, somebody else would resonate. Maybe they'd reach out to somebody and not be alone, because I think that's that's the hardest thing. Grief is challenging enough, but that feeling alone is an added layer that makes the grieving process a lot more complicated. And I've just spoken to a variety of bereaved people from different walks of life with different losses. And one common element is, I wish we didn't feel this alone. In your particular case, it's even more unique because you lost two sisters. Some people lose one sibling. It's not as common to lose more than one. You suffered multiple losses 30 years later, when the situation with your father's declining health showed up in your life. That adds another element. And then you had a friend as well who had a terminal diagnosis. So it's layers upon, layers upon layers. It's still, to this day, a complicated topic because there's a lot of people who don't understand grief. They don't have the words. But it was even more complicated then because there wasn't this public discourse that's happening, thankfully, more and more every day. I know that you work with compassionate friends, and they were the first organization that I was able to find when I searched for help after my brother's passing. What has your experience been with them? I know that I believe your first time participating in a support group was not the success story that you necessarily thought it would be. How has that shifted over time? The public discourse on grief? How has it shifted with your understanding of how powerful groups are and the need for this public discourse? The shift has been phenomenal. There's compassionate friends. There's the bereaved parents, USA. There's Cope. And through the pandemic, there were a lot of Facebook groups. But it's also important to recognize that as an introvert, a lot of introverts out there, groups might not be the right fit for you. I'm in a sibling book group because groups just aren't for me, and I can read a book and go and chat about the book or whatever. Even if you go to a conference, what's a nice thing about it is that chances are you can meet one person to befriend and as long as you have one connection. Because sometimes groups don't always work for everybody. And sometimes a group might work at different points in your grieving process. Some people need a girl the very first week. Some people need to go five years, ten years, 20 years. The most important thing is what works for you. Something might work today, might not work tomorrow. And that's important to recognize, too. But the shift that there's a lot more out there. I'm glad that more and more siblings are sharing their stories and writing their books because as somebody once told me, there's more books on pat loss, that there isn't sibling loss out there. I think it's very important that, you know, these podcasts are out there, that people are sharing their stories and that sibling loss is more and more recognized as an important group that needs compassion and understanding as well. It truly does. And thank you for highlighting that. Siblings are often called the forgotten mourners. If you lose your both of your parents, there's a word for that. If you lose a spouse, there's a word for that. But if you lose a sibling, there's no word for that. And it's an area that is not as commonly talked about until recently. It's changing now. It leaves us with what they call disenfranchized grief. And we feel like we don't have a home. We are not justified in being able to speak about our experience or about our siblings, or it's just this very gray area that that deeply affects the grieving process. So talking about it is important. These were our experiences. I lost my sibling and you lost your two sisters. So it is really important. And like you said about the group, the groups are not a one size fits all, like you mentioned. And it is very true that like anything like with a therapist or any type of support or coaching, people need to find the right fit for them. I know that I've presented some opportunities with certain groups to my parents, but they're not quite aligned, whereas they are perfectly aligned with with me. Thank you for sharing some of those organizations that are doing amazing work being that support that so many of us desperately need, especially in the beginning. For example, with compassionate friends, I'm not as familiar with the other ones, but with compassionate friends I know that they have subcategories categories of loss and which is very important because let's say, Judy, losing her two sisters goes to a group where you have three parents. You could talk about your loss, but it's not the same. There's a gap in communication. So it's very important to connect with people who are also going through a very similar experience to yours, not just a generic grief group, unless that serves you I mean, if it serves somebody, then that's fine. The Compassionate Friends also has subcategories by suicide, and they also have a twin group and a writing group. So there's various opportunities throughout the week, different groups. What practices have you found helpful? Obviously, the the writing, obviously the book and obviously the event, those have been very specific to bringing your parents to the world. Has there been any other practice that has helped you throughout the years that maybe you haven't mentioned? Grief. For me, it's an experience that requires different levels of support at different times. Sometimes journaling, sometimes it's meditation, sometimes with the group, sometimes with this podcast. So you have your outlet with the book and you have your fundraisers or anything else that you've also found helpful along the way. Well, through doing, you know, the book and the podcasts and meeting people at the conferences, I've been fortunate to meet several individuals that I've connected with, that I've met that I speak with on a regular basis now that I'm so grateful that I have now in my life having them, you know, and we don't necessarily always talk about grief, but just that we know that if we need to, we have each other. And that's been very, very helpful, which through hindsight, I wish I had all those years ago, but I'm grateful to have it today. You know, that's been wonderful through all these avenues. I met a lot of, you know, wonderful people and the connections and my skating is my go to. I mean, that's that's my act of meditation. That's kind of where I just now zone out and remembering and also be with my grandchildren which I understand. When your grandchild was born, it shifted a lot of this grief into full joy. Could you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah, actually, it was with each three. I would say that with grief we wouldn't grieve. So. Art if we didn't love so hard and the saying this with joy and love. When my first grandchild was born, his name for my father, Benji, I went back on the ice and my body started to shake. It's kind of weird, sort of like the shakes that I got after Jane died. Who's having my lesson? I got off. I didn't even last. And I got home and I cried. And I thought, this really strange, like, what is going on here? I realized it was thinking at the end like the death of Jane changed me. And then this birth of this little boy changed me. The yin and yang of the grief and the love. Missing my sisters both times, but at different levels. And then when my second grandson was born. Jake, the Jewish religion. We have a breast, the circumcision ceremony. And he was a preemie. So it was five weeks late. My Tiger family was there and it was a beautiful, beautiful ceremony, you know, for generations. And my, you know, daughter and son in law came in from New York and all this. It was beautiful. And then next day, I was like crying and very upset for two days. And I realized that. I was really hurting and missing Margie and Jane. But the difference was, is that I allowed myself to feel, which I hadn't done for so many years. And then my third grandchild, Madeline, whose name for Margie when she was born, floodgates came because, you know, she'll represent all the good. Margie was the smile, the laughter. And she's. She's a sweetie. Each one brought a different emotion. And again, you know, missing my sisters, but celebrating this joy, but also the grief saying yin and yang, all beautiful. I've found that whenever I feel a lot of joy immediately, I also feel a lot of grief. It's almost like they're holding hands forever now. And it's okay. It's perfectly okay. So it sounds like it's a similar experience for you, and I could also see how the little one is. She probably just embodies the spirit of of your sisters then seeing her, because you have the boys and the girls. And so they're different dynamic. But you get to have that that beautiful bond with her as well with all three of them. Have you this is kind of a random question, but have you ever received signs from your sisters throughout the years, maybe have a dream or just some people associate them with encounters with animals or magical moments that we sometimes can't find words for? Yes, yes, yes. So I never went to the cemetery all these years. And I think it was like 2015 when I went through the complicated group study and he encouraged me to go to the cemetery. She had never done. So I go to the cemetery and it's a very cloudy day and I couldn't find their cloths or whatever. And I had yellow flowers for Jane because her room was yellow. I had pink flowers for Margie and I couldn't get the urns up, turn them upside down and get the flowers in. So I struggled. I get them up. No sooner did I put those flowers and the clouds disappeared. The sun came up. It's like they were greeting you. That's so powerful. Thank you for sharing that. It's sometimes when we get to a very quiet place that we can hear and feel these signs, too. That's just beautiful. And we just know beyond reasonable doubt that it's just it's such a powerful feeling. I'm glad you got that. Have you been to the cemetery since or was that just the one special time? No, I was going to call again. I forget something happened and then I haven't been since. Yeah, that's a beautiful memory. And thank you for sharing that memory. It's such a complex reality, but it's bittersweet and it's beautiful and it's joy and the pain and it's all the things that one. What would you say to somebody who is apprehensive about exploring their grief or doesn't know where to begin in doing their grief work? What would you say to that person? I would say be kind to yourself. I would say talk to another bereaved sibling if you can find one and do what feels right for you and take one step at a time. And don't compare yourself to anybody else. Your journey. Everybody's journey is their own in their own way, in their own time. Just don't feel alone and don't know that there are people out there to help you. Beautifully stated. It feels intuitive, but it's not when you're going through this very confusing time, and especially if it's somebody's first time with profound loss, knowing that you're entitled to seeking help and it's okay to take care to put yourself first and take care of yourself is actually a very big step for for the bereaved, because so much of it is feeling like you have to scramble to keep your family intact as much as possible amidst all this chaos. It is okay to take care of yourself for yourself first and actually ripples out from there. With that said, where can people get a hold of you? What is the best way to contact you? Get in touch with you or see your work. The best way is through my website Judy and dot org. Everything's all there. Everything's there. So I will include that in the show notes. And with your permission, I'll also include that beautiful video of you ice skating that I believe it was the final fundraiser, which is the come to life. And it really made me smile when I was watching that video. It's very powerful. Before we close up, we're almost at the hour mark. But before we close out, is there anything that's in your heart to share with the listeners today that maybe I didn't ask you? I would just reiterate that it's never too late to grieve here. And for all of you who have lost anyone, please know that you're not alone. And we share your love and we share your compassion. What would Judy today say to Judy at age 25? Ron. You did the best she could. At that time. Thank you, Judy. Thank you so much for having me, Nina.