From Heartache to Hope: Kathy Wagner's memoir HERE WITH YOU

How can a mother move forward after the life-altering death of her son?

Is it even possible?

Our guest is on a mission to bring hope to those who navigate the challenging journey of grief, the trauma of loving someone suffering from substance use disorder, and the reality of life after losing a child.

Kathy Wagner is a grief-focused writer and author, and a mother of three grown children who understands the profound pain of loss. Her journey includes the devastating experience of losing her son Tristan to fentanyl poisoning in 2017.

Since that time, Wagner has advocated for improved access to quality addiction
recovery services and was a grief support group facilitator for Healing Hearts Canada.

In this episode, we discuss her beautiful memoir, "Here With You: A Memoir of Love, Family, and Addiction," where she candidly shares the highs, lows, and the beautiful resilience that emerged from her family's journey through addiction, recovery, and ultimately, loss.

Kathy's essays have found their way into The New York Times, Best Health Magazine, The Globe and Mail, and The Sun Magazine, and her first book is making waves with its release in Canada, as well as in the U.S. and worldwide (available Spring 2024).

Get ready for a touching and inspiring conversation with a woman who's turned her pain into a beacon of hope for others.

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Transcript

Deciding who I was and how I wanted to live after all of that time, separate from being a mom, part of that process that was so important to me was finding hope and realizing not just that there is always hope for Tristan. And that's one thing I learned unquestionably when he was in recovery, is that there is hope for everybody who struggles with substance use disorder. It is not over for them until they stop breathing. Even if they do, there is still hope for ourselves as people who love them. We still have hope for our lives. We still have hope to live a life of meaning, a life of purpose, a life with love and joy. Even if that looks like something we never expected it to. You just lost your loved one. Now what? Welcome to the Grief and Life podcast, where we explore this new reality through grief colored lenses openly, authentically. I'm your host, Nina Rodriguez. Let's get started. How can a mother move forward after the life altering death of her son? Is it even possible? Today's guest is on a mission to bring understanding and hope to those who navigate the challenging journey of grief the trauma of loving someone suffering from substance use disorder, and the reality of life after losing a child. Kathy Wagner is a grief focused writer and author and a mother who understands the profound pain of loss. Her journey includes the devastating experience of losing her son, Tristan, to fentanyl poisoning in twenty seventeen. We will chat about her beautiful memoir, Here With You A Memoir of Love, family, and Addiction, where she candidly shares the highs, lows, and the beautiful resilience that emerged from her family's journey through addiction, recovery and ultimately, loss. Kathy's words have found their way into The New York Times, the Globe and Mail, and The sun magazine, and her first book is Making Waves, with its release in Canada and soon to the United States. Get ready for a touching and inspiring conversation with a woman who's turned her pain into a beacon of hope for others. Welcome to the Grief and Life podcast, Kathy Wagner. Thank you so much for having me, Nina. It's an honor, Kathy. So I have your beautiful book here with you at a very honest recount of your experience of Tristan's experience. We all know that the effects of loving somebody suffering from addiction can feel like a series of deaths throughout our lives, a death of what we thought would be, of what will never be, and what was, what is no longer. And before knowing all of this pain, there was a life full of hopes and dreams. Can you start by telling us a little bit about young Tristan, the version of him that was untouched by addiction? Who was he? Yeah, the great question. Just to back up for a moment, I appreciate the fact that you recognize that there is grief not just in the death of a person, but there's grief in the death of a dream. And I think so many parents who are parenting youth with a severe substance use disorder, at grieve for what is lost. And, you know, it's important to recognize that Tristan was always, you know, not just as a youth, but all the way through his life. He was an extremely sensitive, thoughtful, generous boy. He was very empathetic, very in tune to the moods and the people around him very much wanting to please. He was funny. He would he was goofy as hell. He just was silly. But he was as silly at twenty as he was when he was two very, very sensitive. So he was very quick to hurt and he was very quick to self blame. And I think those are some of the characteristics that helped make him susceptible. They were not the only ones by a long shot, but one of the things that I have learned from talking to so, so many other parents is that so many people who struggle with substance use disorder are very sensitive, very empathetic. They just feel things very, very deeply. And it's hard to feel so much, so deeply. I think for a lot of people it is for, I would say most of us, if not everybody, but especially difficult when you're young, very sensitive and sometimes as as the relatives, your story is very resonant to my own personal story. So I understand how below the radar of some of these things can go, especially at a young age. It's so easy to dismiss as it's just a phase. He'll be out of it. He's just having a bad day. But all in all, when we connect the dots looking backwards, we see a pattern. And I believe that the pattern with trypsin began earlier than any of us would ever like, if at all. Nobody wants to experience any of this, but unfortunately, his started very early. So could you tell us about when you started noticing that, hey, it's not just a phase? Sure. When it came to his drug use, he started using drugs when he was fourteen, and he began by using weed frequently and ecstasy on the weekends. And I had two older daughters at that stage, my eldest daughter, uh, also was a recreational drug user. And I felt at the time it was problematic, but I was pretty confident she was just going through a phase. And I saw Tristan as following in his sister's footsteps, wanting to do what she did. And then I became equally convinced that it was just a phase for him. What really shifted my thinking, um, you know, and it's certainly denial. Like I cannot I look back and it's like, I, I absolutely should have seen the severity of the problem sooner. He was kicked out of three different schools for drug related charges. That alone should be more than enough. But it wasn't until he started using cocaine regularly that was really the his drug of choice. Once he. Once he met that particular drug, everything else spiraled. So he was no longer going to school. He was no longer doing martial arts, which was his absolute passion. He was very emotionally erratic, very angry, very emotionally disjointed. And I write about in the book of, of really it was one particular moment when I saw him watching people use drugs on TV, and I just saw his demeanor and how he was so pulled into that. And it just became like his face lit up, like it was his whole entire world. And it was in that moment that I realized, this is not a phase. This is this is something that is just pulling him, that is guiding him. That is his North Star. And that's when I began to stop the blind hope that he would grow out of it and began my blind mission to save him. And I believe in the book that was the show intervention. And you just noticed an unusual draw towards the topic that was beyond just maybe a phase that was very concerning to you. And so you immediately started searching for answers, whatever was available at that time. So tell us a little bit about that process and the frustration of not being able to find what you needed. Yeah. You know, my, my first thoughts were, you know, he needs help. Where do I go? And at that time, I think things have changed. I think there is a little bit more available support for people now than there was. You know, we're talking here. It was twenty eleven probably, but there was not much I could do other than try to get him into treatment, was my first thought. And everybody around me said, no, that's not a great idea. He's only fifteen. All of the rest of it. But he wasn't going to school. He wasn't doing anything else. I didn't see any other option. I phoned every treatment center I could. Nobody would take him without his agreement. And I was flabbergasted because at that point, he was fifteen years old. He was kind of in and out of mental health crises because of his drug use. He was certainly not in his right mind at all, and he absolutely refused to acknowledge that he had any sort of problem. Even though he was no longer in school, he was no longer interested in his martial arts. He was no longer, you know, doing all the things that he loved to do. He said he didn't have a problem, so I could not take him to a doctors. I could not take him to treatment. There was literally no option for him within our health care system whatsoever. And I do know that that has not changed. And, you know, I was talking to a mom who lost her thirteen year old boy a couple of years ago because of this of the same thing is he he decided he would do it on his own without treatment. And, you know, two months later, he passed away. I don't know what the answer is. I know that there's a huge controversy around, uh, mandated treatment. For example, I know that it's not the best option for everybody. I do understand that. But as a parent of a fifteen year old kid or a young teenager, I would absolutely have put him into treatment at that time if I could have, I couldn't. And so I had to get very creative. And, you know, in as the book shows, I tried to tap into what his what his loves were. And he. Although he was fading out of his martial arts, that had always been a passion for him. So that's what I investigated. And I ended up taking him to China to study kung fu, Shaolin kung fu, and he stayed there for a year, drug free and sober. And I had the most amazingly wonderful experience. That part of the book is so incredibly touching. But before we go there, I want to go back to the point of where you said, in a way, it's almost like the parents don't have a say in what they already know is a crisis. And so when they alert the system, whatever that system is it currently existing? And the system says, oh no, it has to be a voluntary thing for something that is completely irrational, completely not organized or coherent. And I'm talking about the concept of addiction, the reality of addiction, the person going through it, the last person to know that they have a problem is usually them or the last person to admit it is usually them. So as the parent, it's extremely hard for a parent to come to the decision of, hey, we need to take drastic measures. So by the time a parent already decides that this is the way forward, it's usually because the situation is pretty dire. So I agree that there has to be some alternative where the parents have more say as to what gets to happen with their child. You know, when the intervention gets to happen with their child, it's actually appalling how much burden is placed on the parent. Because in the midst of what is always a parenting crisis, if a parent is discovering it is new to the discovery and the acknowledgement that their child is living in addiction, they are in crisis. And not only are they supposed to act as a parent, but they end up being their child's only doctor, psychologist, psychiatrist, teacher, advocate, you know, health care worker. Because there there is literally nobody else to do it. To do any of these things unless their child agrees for help. And it is not usual for somebody in addiction to agree to help easily or quickly. It typically takes them some time and that time is dangerous. You know, trauma is a big trigger. One of the big reasons why many, if not most people, become addicted and trauma occurs within addiction. You know, you get a fifteen year old who is living in addiction. They are living in trauma. And as a parent, you know, you want to stop and reverse that and bring them back into safety as soon as possible. And there is no help. You know, that's how it felt like to me, like there was no help to be had for me at that time. And I'm sorry you experienced that. I know that's the reality for. I'm not sure if it's all, but definitely most the vast majority of parents going through this. It's very unfortunate. And I know that at the time you did everything in your power because you understood that the consequences could be dire. And like you said, the parent is forced into a position of where this is. You're the doctor, you're the caretaker, you're the you play all the roles beyond just being the parent with a very strong undercurrent of fear of the worst case scenario, or even a bad case scenario when you were reaching out to the different resources available to you at that time. And they said, no, he has to do it voluntarily. We can't help you, we cannot help you, we cannot help you. So it was door shutting in your face after door shutting in your face after door shutting in your face. So you decided to shift your strategy because you consider yourself a problem solver here. And if you read the book, you definitely are. So you decided to shift strategies and say, you know, I can't force him, so what can pull him towards this direction? And that was tapping into his passion for martial arts. Now you found this amazing program that I didn't even know things like this existed, but you found this incredible program. He was sold on the idea. And then you and Tristan flew to China to go through this program, and you weren't sure if it was going to be a year long thing or if going with my child. I don't know if he's staying, but let's let's test this out. So tell us a little bit about that. He was he had just turned sixteen at the time we went. So he was a week after his sixteenth birthday. So he was still a young boy. And he had been a very troubled teen up to that point. And China is the opioid capital of the world. So I had a lot of people telling me that you're taking your your son who's struggling with addiction to the opioid capital of the world. Yeah. But that's not the point of it. The point of it is I found a place that had one particular instructor by reputation that we went to Shifu Wang, and he was a Shaolin monk who taught foreigners. So we went over there just to see what what it was like. And the idea was, if it felt good to both of us, that he would stay. If it didn't feel good to either one of us, then he would come home. When I came home and I went. I was there for five weeks. It didn't even take, you know, the first week or two to see a massive difference in Tristan is like he came back to himself. He, you know, physically his skin improved, his eyes were brighter. He had energy. He smiled, he laughed. He was passionate about it. He was fitting in and making friends. And it was absolutely everything for him that I had hoped for and beyond what I really allowed myself to expect. And it was also a real life changing experience for me. I put myself in the path of having this experience of hours of meditation a day, and hours of tai chi every day that I never would have chosen for myself outside of this experience. That left me with some wonderful lessons and some, you know, really changed my perspective in thinking in so many ways that I've continued to carry forward. So that was just a huge, wonderful opportunity for both of us. And, and to share that time with him was priceless. Absolutely priceless to me. It definitely came through in the book that way. There was some moments of absolute peace where for a split second, you forget all of the problems and you're just there in the moment with Tristan in the middle of this beautiful space together, one of those type of moments where time becomes irrelevant and it just becomes a forever thing. And you could sense that through the book. It was very powerful. It was very moving. It's like you said, you had your boy back. And with addiction and what I've learned about it so far, so much of it is escaping your reality, escaping yourself, like not wanting to be in your own body, quite literally and figuratively speaking. So when you said he came back to himself, he even started to look like himself again. So much of healing and recovery is quite literally that, you know, emotionally, spiritually and physically coming back to yourself. So you got to share that moment with him in China. And then he decided to stay. And he even went on this cross-country trip by himself very bravely, which I'm like, I would be scared as an adult. So he did it as a teenager. Yeah, he had some amazing experiences. And Tristan was, you know, not a I don't think it was naturally a brave person. His tendency was, was to play it safe and. Yeah. Which is why when his shifu, his teacher, moved schools, he had been operating as one instructor in a larger academy, and he separated from the school and set up his own school right beside the Shaolin Temple, which was halfway across China from where we had been. Tristan had planned on going with other people and one thing and another and visas and whatnot. Nobody was available to go with him at the right time, so he decided he wanted to come home because the alternative was to go across China by himself. And that was more than he felt he could manage. And the large part of me was really wanted him to feel successful. Like I knew he could do it. He was not, you know, as I say, he was not even though he was traveling alone, he was not alone. He had people who would take them there. He had people who would give him a phone and set up the phone numbers. He had people to meet him on the other end and make sure he was okay. He was not a minor let loose without any support. I talked him through it and we agreed that that was something he was able to do. And he did. And it was super uncomfortable and he couldn't did not let himself go to sleep for the sixteen hour overnight because he didn't want to miss his stop. But he was really proud of himself. And that's something that he continued to mention throughout the entirety of the rest of his life, the things that he connected with so deeply in China and the people that he met there, but also that particular experience of being brave enough to do the thing that made him feel uncomfortable and to be successful at it. That was a that was a game changer. I think that really helped his self-esteem. And it's something he continued to share for the rest of his life. And what a beautiful gift that is to have that experience, lived experience, and the memory that, like you said, it literally lasted for his lifetime and yours as well. We're remembering and honoring him as we speak. So it's part of your story and now the public story as well. And it was a beautiful thing. So he was there for a year, and then he ended up returning home and things took a different turn. The reality is he did. He entered, you know, what could be considered a form of recovery, in a sense, in that he was drug free while he was there and he became part of a community and he had successes. And those were all great things, but he did not deal with any of the issues that led him to drug use in the first place and drug abuse in the first place. And so when he came home, he had not even unpacked or gone to bed before he went out and got drugs and got high. I talked to him later about this. It continued to be compulsive, obsessive thoughts that he had all the way through China. Even though he was not using. He continued to count down the days till he could come home and use drugs again. And so that's what he did. Addiction is often a spiraling, a progressive disease. And so he was able to manage when he got home for a while, continue to go to school, get a job that he fell in love with. Um, but again, it was a, you know, within six months he was losing all of, he had dropped out of school, he was kicked out of his job. He was losing the things that were important to him. And he was still not ready to go to treatment. He was still not ready to admit he had a serious drug problem that needed help. He just needed to go back to China, hang out with his shifu, his teacher, the guys, and get a reset, as he called it. So that's that's what he did. Those of us who understand the dynamics of addiction, one thing, or for somebody who's new in this and who's gathering information, one thing to understand is that just because you have a person who physically recovers. So in the sense they're not using drugs, they're clean for a sustained period of time, it does not mean that they're not suffering from the symptoms of addiction. One of them being that constant thought of that mental countdown that does not leave them alone. So I'm glad you brought that up because it's part of the torment. There's people that, like you said, use drugs, and then there's people that abuse drugs. And oftentimes it's quite involuntary. It is a pull, like a hunger that they cannot get rid of. They cannot shake. Thank you for bringing that up. And yet the Tristan that wanted to live a better life said, hey, I have to go back because I notice myself, although I don't think I need rehab right now. I do notice that I need a reset. So he did go back to China. And what happened then? He did. His Chefoo school had moved again up north because of paperwork issues, practicing beside the Shaolin Temple, whatever. So it was colder. It's a big thing that happened up then. So Tristan was at that time a senior student. He was expected to practice more on his own, so he was left to his own devices. And it was very cold in northern China. You know, as we moved into fall, he decided to go with another student who was going to take time off in the winter and go to Thailand and study Muay Thai kickboxing there. I thought that that was a spectacularly bad idea. And I talked to his shifu and other students there, and they all thought that it was a bad idea. But then lots of people did it. And, you know, you know, his shifu, his teacher and I talked, you know, none of us felt that he really had the self-discipline at that time of his life to, to train without somebody coming up and hitting him with a stick if he didn't get out of bed, which is what happened in China. He he was eighteen at that time. And quite frankly, I didn't know what to do with him at home. So I agreed, but that I would watch him carefully. He came home for a couple of months, my daughter having her baby around that time it was Christmas. He stayed home for that and then he went to Thailand and it worked out pretty much as, uh, disaster fully as I expected it to. Yeah. For that, you'll have to read all the details of the book. I don't want to give the whole book away, because it is such a compelling story of where you see the crescendo of things spiraling out of control despite everybody's best efforts. And that's the heartbreaking part about all of this. So a lot of things happened there. He ended up back home, and it was extremely difficult to manage the volatility, the ups and downs, the fact that he would get help because he eventually did get help. He went into rehab and then he would get kicked out. And then when he would be doing so well for himself, and then the addiction portion would pull him back. It was this back and forth that was very taxing on you. And I want to highlight that this book is very much the story through your lens, and you make it very clear to the reader that this is how you remember things. This is your story. Obviously, you talk about Tristan because he's part of your story, but there's elements of your own evolution as this is all unfolding. Tell us about the the volatility aspect of it. You know, the times when you were there trying to look for answers and feeling a bit exasperated and going to the parents groups, like tell us a little bit about that. I tried to stay very focused on staying in my lane. Like I don't pretend to know Tristan's experience. I can never know Tristan's experience. As much as I wish I understood it better. I tried very much to stay in. What is my experience in living against his addiction? You know, he. The other thing I just want to quickly mention is he did also find a tremendous passion in cooking and in the kitchen. You know, Tristan could connect very, very passionately with things when he did. So cooking was another huge thing. And a lot of the volatility came around cooking and his successes or his failures. And it's what he would bring to the family during that. You know, when he was kind of eighteen, nineteen, he was doing a lot of cooking and he would bring that to the family. And it was wonderful. Both his mood and the food or the food was wonderful or not, and his mood was horrible. But, you know, it was all the food was always very connected to the volatility as well. But mostly it was because he was having some very problematic drug use. As far as my evolution goes, you know, right from the get go, I tried to find support for myself. And the first support group I found when Tristan was fifteen was not a good fit at all, and honestly, I found it so depressing. It left me so much more hopeless than I had been to begin with. Again, I'm resourceful. I tried to find other groups and ways of connecting, and I didn't find anything that really fit until Tristan entered treatment. And because of that, I ended up joining the parents group at his treatment center. And I did it originally because I just wanted to continue to support Tristan and be the best parent. I learn how to be a good recovery parent. You know, over time, it became clear that really that support group is not about how to be a better parent to Tristan, but how to be a better person for myself. Like just how to show up for myself and actually live my life regardless of what my kids are doing. And that miraculously, by doing that, I'm actually positioning myself to be better able to be present and, and compassionate for the people around me. Learning that. Learning for the first time in my life at fifty plus years old, that my life is actually mine. To live was an absolute game changer for me. I know that sounds so basic. For those of you who have been living your lives all the way through for yourselves, but it's like, oh no. So that was hard for me. Like hard to put the time into myself, hard to put the thoughts and, and energy into deciding who I was and how I wanted to live after all of that time, separate from being a mom, part of that process that was so important to me was finding hope and realizing not just that there is always hope for Tristan. And that's one thing I learned unquestionably when he was in recovery, is that there is hope for everybody who struggles with substance use disorder. It is not over for them until they stop breathing. Even if they do, there is still hope for ourselves as people who love them. We still have hope for our lives. We still have hope to live a life of meaning, a life of purpose, a life with love and joy. Even if that looks like something we never expected it to. Yes, the more you went into the recovery to be a support person, the more you realize part of this recovery is also our own journey and separating our journey from the next person's journey. Even though that next person is so closely tied to us. Like in your case, it's your son. How much closer does a relationship ever get, you know? So I see that I also saw your own evolution in the book, how you were dealing with some things that are extremely, extremely difficult because what mother doesn't want to save her son in a dire circumstance. And yet part of the process is understanding that they need to go through their own process in recovery. And with that, I would like to get your definition of recovery, because your definition of recovery, there are elements that were very familiar to me and there were elements that were new. At first, I had to sit with how that felt within me. It was a little bit different than I was used to specifically. In most cases, when we're learning about this for the first time, they say you have to separate the person from the addiction. You have to. That's two different things. And to a certain degree, that is true. They are not this volatile person at their core. Tell us about the relationship between addiction and the person you love. And what exactly is recovery. Right. First thing I want to say is, is, you know, the learning to let go because they need to live their own journey. I think that that I mean, that is absolutely true. They do. But but one thing I want to emphasize is that it's not for for me, the way I understand, it's not that I needed to let go of doing the things that I could to save them. The reality was, there is nothing I could do to save them, and that's a difference. So it wasn't so much I need to stop saving him as is, understanding that whatever I was doing was actually not saving him. So that was the understanding that was difficult for me and took a long time for me to understand. But it was absolutely true, is that the things that I was sacrificing myself for were not working. So why am I sacrificing myself? The other thing. So definition of recovery is different for every person. So for me, the way I think of recovery from addiction is the process of becoming healthy and well and coming back to a truer form of yourself, where you can live by your values and live in a way that feels healthy and fulfilling. I personally do not, you know, say that you need to be abstinent from all drugs to recover. There's all sorts of different ways to embrace recovery, and I celebrate them all. Even though Tristan's path and my daughter's path was one of abstinence based recovery, I believe that recovery is the process of learning how to be well and healthy fundamentally. And I think the last thing was the idea of separating addiction from the person and, and in the behaviors. And it's something I deal with very pointedly in the book. I do separate Tristan from his addiction. And I will say very consciously that was that's his addiction talking. That's not him. That's his addiction behaving in this way. That's not my son. And towards the end of the book, I do look at it a bit differently. And I have to be honest here, that transition took a long time. I was literally on my last round of edits in that book when I really came home to that idea. So that got integrated in there. And the idea, the understanding that came about was that while I was separating Tristan from his addiction, because I had the privilege and the luxury of being able to do that, Tristan did not. So, you know, addiction took him along for a ride, I think is how I explained it in the book. And sometimes it was a kidnapper and sometimes he was along for the ride enthusiastically. Yay! Hey, let's go. Sometimes he was just a passive passenger and sometimes he was like kicking and screaming and literally fighting for his life. But either way, he was there. Air. He was having the thoughts that addiction put in his head. He was having the feelings that addiction put in his heart, and he was behaving in the way that addiction made him. And to deny all of those things meant that I was denying Tristan the strength that he needed to have to recover from that. I was denying him the effort and the work and the the commitment that he was putting in to stop the damage that addiction had been doing that he had been doing in addiction, and to reverse it and to embrace the healing and to share the healing. He carried all of that addiction behavior and thoughts in himself, and they did shape who he was. So as much as he was so much more than his addiction, he also was shaped very much by his addiction. So I don't think it's fair to separate that from him, because that was ultimately what drove him into his strength that he needed in recovery as well. Thank you for that perspective, because it's more common to hear the they're not there addiction, which it is true, it is true. We love them for their fullness. And we recognize that this was all part of that experience. It was all a very big part of their life. Ultimately, what ended up with them not being here? So to deny that is to deny such a big part of their story. And it's not necessarily it doesn't have to be pretty. If we look at it objectively, it's such a big part of their story and our story by by default it is. I mean, you look at almost anybody who is really causing waves of healing, healing waves and helping, helping in the recovery community and the addiction recovery community. And many, many of those people have suffered from addiction themselves, and they wouldn't be in this position of healing if they had not experienced it. It has become part of them, and they've created something new from that, and we don't want to separate it from them when it's when they're doing good things with it. We just want to separate the bad things as if it's not them. Right? But it is it. It's all one package. And you touched on the addiction community. There were so many beautiful parts in the book involving the addiction community, because there's so much love and support in this very strange process. But when you're there and when you're constantly going to the meetings, either as a supporter or for yourself or just being there for Tristan, when you're there, you see these people, these humans, doing their absolute best to ensure the best outcome for themselves and their family. And in order to do so, they become each other's resource. And there are many stories throughout your book about how that community came through and quite literally saved Tristan a few times, and how some of them even called you mom in some of the meetings, and they involved the families. And there's this beautiful sense of real, true community and love and support, what it actually looks like at the very core for a community that is so stigmatized and misunderstood from the outside looking in, when you're there, you experience it. You. It's almost like this is what life is all about. Not the addiction part, but the coming together and the support and listen, we're all in this together. We really, truly are. That was one of the greatest gifts I have ever received, is just to bear witness to what the meaning of community really is. My kids, you know, two out of three, I have three children, two of whom suffered with substance use disorder. My middle daughter dodged that bullet, and my oldest daughter, again, also goes to a treatment center as part of the story in this book. And so she and Tristan were part of a shared recovery community here in New Westminster, BC, which is considered the newest, the recovery capital of Canada, because it has a very strong recovery community. I feel still so grateful to just see what community was like. Not everybody needed to love each other. Not everybody needed to like each other. They had their personalities there. All of the rest of it. But they were there to save each other's lives one hundred percent. And and to hold people accountable to staying real. I know that as part of the a, a n, a community, there's all sorts of pros and cons and ideas and and good and bad instances. I have been floored by just the acceptance that I have seen and felt from people in this community. If you're going to use, let us know. We'll be there. We'll keep you alive. If you want to come back, come back. I'll take you to a meeting. People were out there driving around looking for Trystan when he went missing. People gathered around my daughter after he passed and just held her really close and safe so that she would not start using again. I think a few times in the book, in various capacities, I think there's so much wisdom that can be learned from that community that I wish all of us been a little bit of open mind and open hearted time, you know, really reflecting on that and understanding it. Part of the book, a little excerpt I would like to read, if that's okay with you, precisely about this point, because I found it so powerful, so true, and so touching. So for context, this is one of the times that the community rallied around Tristan. By the time we got together for dinner, almost a week after Tristan had wandered into the Friday night Na meeting, doc had put him on his phone plan and given him a phone, bought him new running shoes, and made sure that his medications were sorted out. Tristan had updated his resume and gone looking for a job again. He brought a book with him called Living Clean, which focused on how to live life while staying sober. This book has already changed my life, mom. It's pretty amazing. All the things it gets into, like, listen to this. Na is about love. When we are practicing step twelve to the best of our ability, love becomes central to all that we do. There is no more powerful antidote to the despair and self-destruction of addiction. The compassion that we feel for the newcomer is something we learn to extend to our families, to those around us, and eventually, to ourselves. I was moved by those words and by my son sharing them with me. Certainly the love and the fellowship of his. Any friends had saved Tristan's life in the past week, but the message was universal. It occurred to me again that so many people could benefit from recovery literature. Tristan was back. That boulder of worry I'd been lugging around with me for the past six weeks crumbled to dust and blew away. My son was safe again for now. After dropping him off at docs, I thought about what the recovery community had done for Tristan. Tina taking him in so he wouldn't have to go back to a drug den. Doc giving him a home and guidance, his friends buying him meals and picking up his stuff. It filled me with gratitude and humility. I knew they did this for each other because nobody else would. And this is the part that got to me. But nobody else would step in with love and generosity to save an addict when he wasn't able to save himself. No one else would hold space for the hope of recovery when a person felt themselves to be hopeless. Not the rehab centers. Not the medical profession. Certainly not law enforcement. Just their own community. It was baked into their program. It was their twelfth step to be of service, to give back, to help those still struggling. I thank God for Tristan's recovery angels here on earth, and wonder how I could ever begin to do as much good in this world as they do. That part was so powerful. I'm getting chills just reading it, because those of us that have lived that and understand that the power of that community, it literally saves lives and they deserve so much more credit. And the lessons are universal. It's not just if you're going through addiction, it's especially useful in that scenario, but it's useful to all of us. It's just as human beings, we could all use a dose of those lessons. Absolutely, absolutely. You know, back to kind of what I talked about earlier is how when I felt so isolated when Tristan was fifteen, like I had to be everything to him. I had to be the mother, the doctor, the, you know, provider, the everything. That's what community does. Community takes the burden off of any one person and shares it around. Then there's there's different people who can step in, and it's no longer too much of a burden for anybody to like. You're no longer burdened. Tristan was not a burden in recovery. There had lots of people there who had his back and could do so much better than I could ever do for him. Like, you know, I used to laugh because doc was ultimately his, his sponsor, um, after that and a tremendous, tremendous person in his life who did so much for Tristan. And I would laugh in my, you know, support group saying, this doc can do this and that's okay. But if I'm doing it, it's enabling and it doesn't work. And it's like, but you need a community. It's like no one person can be everything. That's what the recovery community was. So was so special. You know, truly they all, they all stepped up in different ways. And it breaks my heart to hear some of the horror stories that come out of people who have had bad experiences with twelve step communities, or who have had no experiences but perceive it in this kind of weird way. And I have to admit, I was one of them. I before I was part of it, I didn't understand what to expect. So one of the things in the book I, you know, this is not a book about the twelve steps, but I did want to communicate how important it was to our lives to be part of that community for that time. It was beautiful. And I saw them coming through time after time, which is lovely. And it's the whole point. So thank you for sharing that part. And also the twelve steps is not the only solution. There are many other recovery programs for somebody who maybe that's not the right fit for them. There are many, many other options that are faith based, not faith based, and that could help meet the person where they're at. And I think that's the most important part. Um, I do want to shift gears a little bit to Kathy, the writer. So obviously we know that Tristan passed and then you had to go on your own journey after that to, to answer the big question, now what? You sold everything or almost everything and you decided to embark on a journey to, I believe it started in Lisbon, then Costa Rica, then you came back and then eventually it led to the book. Give us an overview of that process and what that was like for you. Yeah, I think Kathy, as a writer has nothing to do with that, uh, running away phase. That was, uh, Kathy, the grieving mom, just needing to not be part of day to day life without Tristan. So I did spend the first, uh, you know, about eight months after Tristan passed, mostly traveling. And that was mostly because I just could not I could not fathom Them regular routine life without Tristan, it was better to be out of my routine and deal with my grief alone, because I was not particularly good at, um, leaning on people in my grief. But I did always know that I would write a book as soon as he passed. It's like I, I need to write this down. It was just something I felt very fully. And I knew that the book was going to be a book of hope because I was not ready to let go of the hope that I had found. And I felt that by writing through it, it would be a way to hold on to it for myself and to share it with other people. So I knew that right away. And I did begin writing some scenes early on that really were just very cathartic. But I didn't start writing seriously until about a year and a half after he passed. I had a lot to learn. I threw myself into learning the craft of creative writing. I have written my entire life from a technical and web writing perspective, but not creative writing, which is a whole different beast. So I began taking classes and being part of programs and getting mentors and really embracing the writing challenge. And I think writing a memoir like this is twofold. One is, is it is very emotionally difficult, emotionally cathartic and healing for sure, but also really heavy at times. And I was fortunate in that my first writing coach was also a family therapist, and she would show me certain techniques that would help me not to be retraumatized when I was writing about trauma, but also to help me to dive deeper in the emotional ways when it was safe for me to do so. Then the other part of it is the craft of writing, which, you know, intellectually stimulated me and kind of gave me something to hold on to. Aside from the grief, aside from the story, I could wrestle with the writing challenges separate from the emotional challenges. And that gave a good balance for me. Then the final stages of the book was revising and revising and revising it into something that I felt would be readable and and Meaningful to the readers. So that was a five year challenge for me. No. And that message of hope definitely comes through. But I know that getting to that point in that message of hope was not easy in that five year process. So you had to decide on the dual timeline approach versus writing chronologically. So tell us a little bit about how you decided on that, the feedback that you got and how difficult it was to cut out almost fifty thousand words of the story and which words to choose for the sake of editing into a memoir. Whole people that were meaningful got let loose. Um, yeah. Originally I had, I had done this, you know, I, I love reading good literature and, and one of some of the things that intrigued me are, is, is just artful or playful structures. So I had imagined weaving together the story, starting in recovery and going back and forth between scenes of recovery and addiction, dealing with certain themes and bringing them all together and kind of weaving it together. So that's what the first draft did, and I sent that out to beta readers and they were like, very encouraging. But it didn't work for anybody. Nobody knew what the heck was going on or who was doing what when. So it's like, okay, that didn't work, you know? I suppose somebody might be able to write it in that way. It could be that I just don't have the capacity to do that as a writer. But ultimately, I think what, what works for me. AM I right? Again, I do have a writing background, just not in creative writing. And the strength that I do have is clarity and simplicity. And so ultimately, I figured in both my language and the structure that is going to best support me in telling my story. And so that's what I ended up going with. And I think that that was the right choice. I think that the audience that I'm, I'm really appealing to here are our mothers or others family members who are grieving or maybe who have a kid in crisis. And quite frankly, they don't need a whole lot of artful, complicated structure. They they just want the meaning of the story. It's just like me opening my heart and sharing it with somebody. So I went with simplicity and I'm very happy with that approach. Cutting things out is hard in memoir because it feels like you're cutting out things that are important. Tristan actually had a best friend that came and stayed with me when he was in China the second time, and he lived with us for six months and ended up in hospital for another six months because of a neurological disorder. And it was Tristan's best friend. And then he was going to come home. And there was all sorts of drama around that great storytelling material. Also multiple chapters. And in the end, it's like, I have to get rid of this whole person. That was important to us because a story can only contain so much. And if it ultimately came down to if I could still tell this story without this scene, then this scene had to go. And if I could tell this story without this person, then this person had to go. You know, a memoir is not a documentation of my life during this period. It is just a thread that I've pulled together to tell this one particular story so that I could share this particular truth. It's not my whole truth. So it's hard because it feels personal when you're letting those things go. But the clarity of it comes through and your purpose is definitely achieved. Sharing the story authentically and in a way that brings hope. And from what I understand, one of the original drafts ended with Tristan's passing, and then that ended up shifting to what happened after his passing. In a way to carry him forward to this day, including all the podcasts that you're doing and the public appearances and your articles and your other writing. So I think that's also where the message of hope lies. I want to thank you for all of your work. This book is absolutely incredible. If you've loved somebody going through addiction, substance use disorder, or if you're in the middle of it or even in the beginning, this is enlightening. It brought a lot of things to the surface that were very healing for me. There's a lot of elements to the story that, unfortunately, so many of us can relate to. Way too many of us can relate to. What advice do you have for a person going through a similar situation. Who wants to share their story? And then for mothers in the grips of the shame, the confusion, and the fear that we experience, how can they hold on to hope? Yeah, the great question. I'll take the second one first. So I think if you are currently being challenged by loving somebody who in active addiction or you have lost somebody to drug harms, it can be incredibly difficult to find people who understand. Um, and it's hard to open up and be supported by people who do not understand. It's because of the shame, because of the stigma, because of just the lack of understanding. But there are people who understand, unfortunately, way too many of us. So I would encourage those people to find those people, find the support groups. There are a lot of them. It doesn't. It's not just there are there Nar-anon Al-Anon groups again, but there's other organizations across North America. In Canada, there's healing hearts. Mum, bumped up. The harm holds support groups healing hearts for those who have lost loved ones to drug harms. Holding hope for people who are currently struggling with people with loved ones in active addiction. There are all sorts of support groups, both online and in person, and I really encourage you to find one that works for you because it takes some of the burden off to share it with a community who do understand. The second one is if you are wanting to share your story. I think it's incredibly important for us to get our stories out of us. If we're holding trauma inside of us, it is very healing to get it out. And no matter which way we do it, whether that is through writing, through painting, through talking, through dancing, just getting the trauma out of our bodies is so important. And then finding a way to share it with others is really what I think is fundamental in starting to break down the stigma and shame, because there are so many of us that don't talk about it because we feel we are alone, and the more that we can talk about it and share it, the more we understand we are not alone. And there is strength in those numbers, but it is your story. You don't need to share it before you're ready or with who you're, who you don't want to share it to. You know, find that safe person, whether that's a family, a friend, a support worker, a therapist, your dog to begin with. Practice telling the story to your dog. You know, it's hard. If you want to tell a story, find your audience, find a safe audience, and get it out there any way it can, because that's how people connect and that's where the strength will come in or that we need in order to break down the stigma and let people know that they're not alone. And the writing definitely achieves that. This book will reach many people that are in this situation, and the power of not feeling like you're isolated and alone in this, that alone is a resource. It fuels you to keep going. It strengthens our capacity to withstand more, get through more, and persevere and hopefully eventually thrive in the situation. Before we conclude, I'd like to read one shorter section here that I think is very powerful, and this one's for anybody who's lost a child, their son or daughter to this terrible disease. For context, this is a conversation that you were having with, I believe it's your sister in law or a relative or a family member. And it says, I don't think it was God's will that Tristan died. Cathy. She said, I believe it was God's will that Tristan lived and healed and became well. That's her will for all of us to live in a state of love and connection and grace. She'll always guide us in that direction if we listen. And humans have been blessed with personal choice in all things, and the choices we make are not always in alignment with God's love. I'm not just talking about Tristan's choices, but all of us as a society. Tristan was trying his best, but help is limited. People are judgmental about addiction, and drug supply is poisoned. That's why Tristan died. None of that was God's will. That's the society that we as humans have chosen to create for ourselves. Yeah, that was my cousin I was speaking with who was a United Church minister. I thank her for saying that as well, and I thank you for sharing it, because so many of us struggle with the guilt and the shame. And was this meant to happen? Did we cause this? All the questions that will never, ever have answers to. But ultimately, I always say they all deserve to live. They all deserve to live. And we need to part from that premise. So thank you again, Cathy. Are there any last thoughts that you'd like to share with the audience? And also, how can they get a hold of you? Where can they contact you or see more of your information? Yeah. Thank you so much for having this conversation and for continuing to have these conversations and share them with people. I think it's so important that we talk about them now. People can find me on social media at Kay Wagner writes, so Instagram, Facebook K w a g n e r W r I t e s. Um, also, kay wagnerites dot com. And the book is available now in Canada and will be available US and globally on April thirtieth, twenty twenty four. So you can pre-order it now and spread the word. I'd really appreciate it. Highly encourage you to get the book here with you. It's a beautifully written. Actually. Before we close, I do want to bring up one more thing. I know that you've had beautiful dreams with him that you put in three categories, but right now I'm specifically wanting to reference the visitation. One, a beautiful story. Speaking of hope, I would like to end it with this beautiful connection that you still share with Tristan. One of the forms is in the form of dreams. So could you share maybe the one that that you recall? Yeah. I think you're talking about what I call a visitation dreams where I can feel and I can touch him. I can smell him. It is. It feels like him visiting me. And the first dream that I had and the most vivid still to this day happened about three days after he passed. And he I just see him and he was he was coming to me and he was he was kind of like I told you before, he was goofy. He was kind of doing this like goofy, typical Tristan dancing. See, mom, I'm still me. I'm still me. And he came in and gave me a hug. And I could hug him and touch him and smell him and. Okay, I gotta go. And I and he backed up and that and and he backed up and left. But that was, um. Yeah, I'm still me. So I hold on to that. People that I've talked to after their loved one's passing have, um, this experience of visitations and the differences that you, like you said you could feel him, you could feel the density of the body and it feels like a very real interaction. And so we don't have all the answers as to what happens after we die. But there is no question from the conversations that I've had from our own experience, that there is something beyond our understanding that keeps us connected to our loved one. I when I heard that story about his visitation, it just felt very powerful to share for anybody who's lost somebody and is afraid that they're never, quote unquote going to see them again, we don't have all the answers. I don't think we're supposed to. But there are these moments when the space in between here and there becomes so tangible, and we get to hang on to that. Couple of moments. I could still hug him even when he was gone. That's so powerful. The last question is, what would Cathy today tell Cathy when Tristan was fifteen? Oh my God. I mean, I guess I would like to tell her what I was trying to say in the book is there is hope. There is always hope and there is hope for you. That's it. There's hope. Don't give up hope. Thank you so, so much, Cathy. Thank you so much, Tina. That's it for today's episode. Be sure to subscribe to the Grief and Light podcast. I'd also love to connect with you and hear your thoughts and your stories. Feel free to share them with me via my Instagram page at Grief and Light. Or you can also visit Grief and Light dot com for more information and updates. Thank you so much for being here, for being you. And always remember you are not alone.