Grief Doesn’t Have to Rule the Show: Living Alongside Compounded Grief with Sylvia Wolfer

Sylvia Wolfer has lived through a lifetime of loss. Her father died suddenly when she was seven. Her younger brother, Johan, at sixteen. Her older brother, Stefan, in 2019. Her mother in 2023. 

She has navigated decades of layered grief. Through neuroscience, mindfulness, and work in the body, she has come to understand that grief can be in your life without running your life. In fact, you get to be "the boss."

In this conversation, we explore what it means to live alongside loss without being consumed by it. We talk about the weight of sudden grief, the complexity of family dynamics, and the quiet, ongoing relationship we maintain with those who have died.

We Explore:

• Why grief is so often misunderstood, and why we are not powerless to it 
• The distinct impact of sudden versus anticipated loss
• How grief moves differently through sibling bonds, parent-child relationships, and across time
• Her practice of “grief appointments," a structure that allows emotion without overwhelm
• Anger in grief, how to leverage its energy, and what it protects 
• The "body budget" and why supporting the nervous system is foundational 
• Post-traumatic growth, the window of tolerance, and what integration actually looks like
• Continued bonds: how each person we've lost lives on differently within us 
• Buddhist grief practices, the dana tradition, and a different relationship to death

If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by loss(es), unsure how to move forward, or disconnected from yourself in grief, this conversation offers a deeply human, grounded perspective.

Connect with Sylvia Wolfer:

• Website
• Instagram
• LinkedIn
• Guided Meditations by Sylvia
• Sibling Grief: The Overlooked Loss

Transcript

I thought grief was going to rule my life. I thought I would be at the mercy of grief in random moments, you anytime, anyhow, anywhere. And I was constantly bracing for the next wave of grief. And I wish someone had told me grief will always be there, but it doesn't have to rule the show. You just lost your loved one. Now what? Welcome to the Grief in Life podcast where we explore this new reality through grief-colored lenses. Openly, authentically, I'm your host,

Nina Rodriguez, let's get started. How do we navigate life after experiencing back-to-back losses? Today's guest knows that not just professionally, but in the deepest, most personal ways. Sylvia Wolfer has lived through multiple profound losses, including the sudden deaths of her father, two siblings, and most recently, her mother.

She leaned into her grief, allowing it to reshape her life, drawing on the neuroscience, mindfulness, and mindful movement through Pilates. Sylvia now supports others in finding their footing after loss by building the capacity to live well alongside it. This is a conversation about honesty, resilience, and what it really means to embrace the full spectrum of life. Sylvia, welcome to the Grief and Light podcast.

Hi Nina, thank you so much for having me. I'm really looking forward to the conversation because we do have shared experiences and sibling grief in particular and I think it's so important to talk about it. So I'm really, really excited about the upcoming conversation. Likewise, I'm honored and I came across your profile on social media in the context of sibling loss and then I got to know more of your story, which, you know, we don't play grief Olympics here and also

I am just in awe of how people navigate life forward after multiple losses, multiple very personal losses like your core nucleus family. You have more layers to navigate through and it does change how you show up in the world. So we'll talk about all of that, but before we get to your story, I would love your point of view about what do people misunderstand about grief? What is it that people get wrong about grief, generally speaking?

Well, if I speak for myself after years, maybe even decades of grieving, what I did get wrong, what I wish someone would have told me is that we are not victims of grief. I thought grief was going to rule my life. I thought I would be at the mercy of grief in random moments, know, anytime, anyhow, anywhere. And I was constantly bracing for the next wave of grief. And I wish someone had told me grief will always be there.

but it doesn't have to rule the show.

Thank you for that. And we were discussing before that you are located in Cambodia. There's been some changes that have taken you literally all the way across the world. From my perspective, I'm in South Florida. Where does your story with grief begin? How did you get acquainted with grief and how has it evolved into what it is today? Yeah, so the first time I faced grief was when my dad died when I was seven.

My younger brothers were five and six and my older brother was 13. And we were in Germany. My dad was German. My mom was French and my mom decided to move back to her family. So after our dad died, just a few months later, we moved to France, which was a language we didn't speak. We were, you know, we were in an environment we didn't know. So it was an extra layer of grief on top. And, uh, and our mom stopped to speak German to us, which was quite...

Surprising, she meant well. She thought she had to immerse us so that we could learn the language, but we had just lost our dad. And then our environment, and we were up in the same house as our grandparents, so they were gone suddenly as well. And then our mom didn't speak the same language anymore. So it was a quite brutal shift of environment at a very young age. And then fast forward 10 years, and then my younger brother died very brutally in a road accident, so suddenly. So these were two...

sudden losses at a very young age. And what I was going to say as well is that when my dad died, strangely, you know, children are just incredible because in hindsight I was seven, but I remember thinking, okay, I have my mom and my brothers. They're my everything. And I just had that immense love for them that I am so grateful now because it was there throughout and I feel like my brothers.

We really loved each other so much. So I'm super grateful for that. This is the legacy of my dad to really help me appreciate the people who are here. Yeah. It's beautiful. And would it serve you to say their names? I usually like to honor them by saying their names and bringing them into the conversation. Yeah, well, thank you for asking. You know that I think you're the first one to ask me their names. Yes. My younger brother's name was Johan with she's a German name.

And my older brother was Stefan. And then mom and dad, Thank you for asking. It's actually quite moving to say their name because this is also important, I think, to give space to grieving people, to speak the names of their people. Absolutely. And on a kind of tangent on that, I did this interview yesterday where the guest's brother's name is Joseph. That's my brother's name. I was not expecting.

to feel what I felt in that conversation because she kept saying his name, saying his name, and I realized, wow, I really haven't heard his name in so long. And that was very touching. So there is so much power and a point of connection in doing that. So thank you for sharing them with us. Also, very deeply sorry for those losses. And I could totally see how the grief wasn't just the loss of your, the physical loss of your loved ones, but also your sense of identity in every shape.

way and form, including language, because moving, there's inherent grief in that and changing spaces and what you used to know and now having to get to know these new places. So I'm very sorry about that. And how did your family navigate the losses? Sometimes family find it very difficult to talk about it. So they put it away and it's something that you just know but don't talk about. Or was your family a bit more open after the losses?

Well, there was a lot of silence. And it's only when I started doing work in grief that I realized that it was not uncommon. I thought this was just my family, you know, but there was a lot of silence. My mom did talk about our dad, not much, but always really beautifully, which I thanked her for before she died, because I know that, you know, relationships are what they are and there must have been ups and downs,

but she never mentioned anything negative about our dads. I'm really grateful about that. then later on, because we were children, so children do approach this a little bit differently. And I had my brothers to talk about our dad and the experience. There's one thing that, I mean, there's a few things that I remember about me as a child reacting to the loss of my dad and where I made the promise to myself back then, don't you ever forget.

that you know that, that you understand what people say around you, don't ever forget. And when I see a seven year old child, I always think about it. You know how they understand so much more. But I remember asking myself, okay, I'm sad. Like we cry sometimes with my brothers about our dad, but we also play and we laugh and we're happy. Why do the adults not laugh anymore? Like I remember that I was really like astonished at that fact. I like, why are they so sad?

all the time and children just have that ability to be in the moment. So there was some real laughter even though the situation was difficult. So I think we learn a lot from children. And then later when my younger brother died, know, think people who experienced layered grief, you really feel like it's not going to hit you anymore. You feel like, well, it's happened. I don't know how we might have that idea. But then when it happens, it's like, what again?

No, that can't be. And it was so brutal. You we woke up one morning and he was gone. And this was very difficult because in a family constellation, everyone has their own way of grieving. And my mom's way of grieving was very loud. She just kept talking about him all the time, repeating the same stories over and over again. She had like, there was a whole room, part of the room with like...

Dozens of pictures of my brother, all the flowers of his funerals hanging there, pictures everywhere. It was just so much, so loud. And I just wanted to shy away from this. And there was that huge conflict between feeling so sorry for my mom, who had just lost her son, but also being angry at her behavior and not being able to be in the same room at times. And there was, that was very conflicting, you know, between the love and the anger for my mom and understanding for her grief, but also

just finding it outrageous. And so that was quite difficult. And back then, that was almost 30 years ago now, there was no support really. My mom did the best she could, but there was no support really. And I was the sister. So I was like the little mom, also for my brothers. also for my mom was very eccentric and very...

extravagant and not very reasonable. So I was the voice of wisdom in the family, even as a teenager. So when my brother died, I ended up organizing the funeral, you know, and now I'm thinking like this is wrong. Like at 17, I shouldn't have had to do that. But this is just how it is. You just take over that role just like you did as well. You just take over a responsibility of being here for everyone. Thank you for your openness and

for touching on the family constellation aspect of it because that is or can be such a great pain point as a family starts to understand their own grief and each other's grief and to what degree do we extend grace to ourselves and each other. Those lines I feel like are a constant moving target, especially when you're so young. mean, you were a child and a teenager throughout these losses. So I can only imagine how much

You know, you're being shaped just as a human growing up in the world and in the context of so many changes and so many losses and then seeing your mom grieving. One thing in the sibling loss experience, and I would love your take on it as well, is what surprised me was how siblings felt that anger at their parents.

And or in my case, it was a traumatic loss. was anger towards the sibling that quote unquote left, right? Like you left me, you left us. Did you experience any of that? that, or maybe your sibling experienced any of that? Yes, almost like betrayal, a feeling of betrayal. Why, why, why did you do that? Like my brother left in the middle of the night. He was drunk 16 and he took his motorbike without a helmet. And the day before I had like a long chat with him saying,

Lee's promise and he laughed and said, okay, I promise. And there was that anger, that feeling of betrayal. why? Why did you do that? Like, why? Now that I've looked into the research a little bit more, specifically the work of Mary Frances O'Connor that has been life-changing for me through her books, The Grieving Brain and The Grieving Body, she explains that that feeling of anger is something that

would come up in real life or if they were still here and usually the anger precedes the course correction. Things get better, we get angry, we have an argument and then we're good again. And so that is kind of what's happening in the brain. We get angry because there's that subconscious hope that maybe then there'll be the argument and then it'll be good again. Things are going to come back to normal. So there are a lot of mixed emotions and I think anger...

It's a very interesting one because I just recently wrote an article about it. It's not out yet, but it's a very interesting emotion because it usually stands for something else. It's here for something else, for fear, frustration, doubt, insecurity, feeling of lack of love, you name it. so anger is very valid and we tend to demonize anger, but anger is actually an extraordinary energy. It's very powerful. So if we learn to tap into that energy and to turn it towards

creative or loving or giving, you know, we don't need to repress it, but maybe just to learn how to transform it because it is a beautiful energy. Absolutely. I look at it as the tip of the iceberg. And if we're willing to go deeper and deeper and deeper, there's so much more there. And you have to get honest with yourself and you have to be willing to sit with what is. Absolutely. So thank you for touching on that. And you talked about how the grief

arose throughout different parts of your life probably continues to do so from even those earlier losses. What would you say to somebody who thinks, should be over this by now. This happened when I was seven years old or 10 years older. You I was a kid, I'm an adult now. How come I'm still dealing with these feelings? Yeah, I think one of the main problems for that is that honestly, in our cultures, Western cultures, we do not talk enough about it. And

I think I've happened to spend the last two years in Buddhist countries and there is a notion that in life there is suffering. Not that life is suffering, that's misconception, but in life there is suffering and suffering is not the enemy. So there is a time where you learn that your suffering is only here because there was love and it has a bit of bittersweet taste and it's not that scary anymore. You just accept that indeed grief is still here and it will always be here but we wouldn't want it to be.

anywhere else anyway, you know, we hold on to that grief. But for that, what you said, you know, when people think, I should be over it. And I think this, this is a really important point to just notice that thought because it's a judgment and whatever emotion we have, grief related or not, we should try to never judge our emotions, but we don't even realize that we do it.

So the shoulds and shouldn'ts are judgments. So when that thought arises, just give yourself some grace. Thank you. Yes. And that understanding helped, was incredibly helpful in my early experience was that realization that this is the first time I'm getting to know this version of myself. And I often share that with people who are going through it, especially for the first time. It's like, you don't know who you're becoming. There's a lot of undoing. There's a lot of...

unraveling that's going to come together in a new and different way and you're not that person yet. So that process is key. You also experienced the loss of your mother most recently and I'm again so sorry. would love to bring her in the room with us as well if that would serve you. First by saying her name and also maybe share whatever you'd like about experiencing her loss now as an adult and

maybe what was different between this loss and all the others. Yeah. So just to go back, thank you for asking about my story because usually I talk more about my work. So yeah, it brings up emotion, but it's also very moving to talk about these things. So my dad died when I was seven and then 10 years later, my younger brother died when he was 16, I was 17. And then fast forwards, 2019, my older brother died.

also in a car crash, also very suddenly. And that really broke me. That was really when you think this can't be, not again. Like how, how on earth? And that's when on top of the grief, I started getting angry. I was really angry and I was angry at grief. I was angry at grief for having taken away so much precious moments. I could have been more mindful with my older brother.

my unattended grief, should say, because I spent decades racing and really being completely pushed away. Like I was like in a washing machine, know, and grief was the washing machine and I was just being spinned around and I could never predict when it was going to hit, how hard it was going to be. If I would have to leave the room, it was just the song I stopped watching.

movies, I stopped reading novels, I was a prehensive going to restaurants and cafes and I have had moments where I was with my older brother, we could have had such a good time but then a song came up, reminded me of our younger brother and that was it, I just couldn't stay in the room and that's when I got really angry and I thought that's enough now. I cannot accept grief ruling my life like that so I accept that grief is in my life but I'm going to

be the boss now. And that's when I started to really dive into all the literature and just find ways for myself to regain some kind of agency. So that was before lockdown. And then in 2023, my mom, who had lost two sons and two husbands, also passed. And we did spend some quality time together and we had long conversations. She was ill and

And the beautiful thing was that we talked so much about the fact that she was dying. It's almost as if we were making up for the times we didn't have without my brothers and my dad. And so we spoke a lot about that. And she would always say, you know, I've had a good life. I'm ready now. I'm so proud of my children. I want to go. I've had enough. And so the fact that I was sad.

But it was a completely different type of grief because it didn't feel like she was being snatched away far too young. It was like, okay, she is ready now. And that was very soothing. we had really deep conversations about, she would say that she's okay with dying. She actually wants to go now. She's just a bit afraid. She's just a bit scared that it might be painful or uncomfortable. And so I would come with all my...

data and science and, you know, research papers and be like, but actually, mom, I think it's not painful. you know, and so we had these really beautiful conversations and I had time to thank her for everything. Yeah. So that was precious. These moments were precious. Thank you so much. And I could totally see the difference. There is something really jarring about a sudden loss, like a sudden unexpected loss, like it was with your dad and your two brothers. And

my heart goes out to you because I, when you said no, not again, like that's exactly what I felt. It's like, are you kidding me? Why would life do this again, right? Like this experience and the contrast with your mom saying, you know what, I'm ready. Maybe before loss that would have sounded like, no, why would somebody say that, right? Now with the perspective that I have, what a blessing to be able to hear those words from somebody who's departing, right? And having that opportunity to have those conversations.

In the time that you got to talk to her, was there a point where you felt like you got to say goodbye to her?

Yes, but my mom had an incredible sense of humor. And she would say like, yeah, but I'll come and tickle your feet, tickle your toes while you're sleeping. So we did it, but with a lot of lightness. It wasn't like a dramatic, heavy goodbye. was light and full of laughter, should I say, because she was like that. She was very extravagant. She was very...

very strong-minded. She was very strong-minded woman and she had an amazing way to de-dramatize things. You know, like she could just look like she was chilled and relaxed and amused by any situation. And I'm so grateful to her for that because I know that part of my personality today is thanks to that I'm very chilled, you know, I'm not a worrier and I know it's thanks to her. So yeah, we did say goodbye, but in a beautiful way.

Thank you. I ask because living with those goodbyes you didn't get to say can feel like a source of grace that we learn to carry over time. Definitely those living with questions, living with unanswered aspects of your person's life can be that. So I'm so grateful that you got those moments. Nothing will ever fully do it justice because ultimately we just want a full long life with them and do what the people we love. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm also glad that you got that.

You're a fantastic writer. really enjoy your writing. And I want to read a blurb of a recent blog post you shared on your website that gets at the core of something you mentioned just a few minutes ago. And I quote, my unprocessed grief didn't just hurt me. It stole time, precious, unrepeatable time with the people I loved. This is the truth that finally moved me. This is a truth that made the choice obvious. I don't want anyone else to lose more than they already have.

And I love that because it's the hard earned perspective. And I believe this is when you're referencing the second loss of your other brother and how you felt sort of robbed of that time because you were focused on the grief. Could you expand on that and go a little bit deeper on that? so it's really, you know, that's the ugly truth of life. People die. But then

People die and people die and people die. We don't know when it stops. So the world stops when our loved one dies. But actually we have to be aware that as important as it is to allow the grief to happen, to let it move through you and to feel all the feelings, it's also important to learn ways to be in the present moment. Because that's the hard learned lesson.

people might just die tomorrow. this is where I started to use the body because I found that emotionally and rationally, it was really hard to put that, to implement that. You you can know that, you can be like, yeah, sure. You know, but I can't just switch off grief. can't just, and so that's where using the body through breath work, mindfulness, movement, helped me to learn to come back into the moment. And one magical thing as well is,

I find children, I don't have children of my own, but I find children are quite magical for that because they change so quickly. So in the blink of an eye, you miss out. And so my nephew, for example, he has that beautiful way to bring me into the present moment and to turn sad memories into beautiful memories. And he was a great reminder for that to be like, okay, you have to be here now. So I give you an example where my younger brother lives in France with my nephew. It's close to where our brother died.

whether the crash was and I've never gone past that place. I just couldn't, I could not face it for decades. And two years ago, my little nephew says, auntie Sylvia, come with me to the football place in the village. We're going to play football. I'm like, yeah, okay. And he starts to walk towards that road and my heart starts to pound and I didn't want to say to that little boy, no, can't walk there. So I said, let's take the other way. And he goes, no, but that's the way to the football field.

Come on, let's just go this way. And it was so overwhelming, but also so beautiful because I kept looking at this little boy trying to calm my breathing, to not burst into tears, to contain myself, to compose myself walking past the place where my brother died. And I saw him so innocent with his football under his arms, so excited to go and play football. And that was one of these moments where I thought life is here. Life is here. This road cannot be forever. That painful place.

where my brother died, it is also a place where that little boy that I love so much walks happily to play football with his friends. yeah, I find children can be really magical in helping us back into the present moment because grief pulled you into the past constantly you don't even realize. What a beautiful story. Thank you for sharing that. And I kind of got emotional thinking, you know, imagining you with your nephew and just that moment.

It is so true, it's so hard to face those things as an adult. And it reminds me of something you said earlier when you were with the loss of your dad, and I asked you about how your family processed and everything, and you said the child version of you knew to grieve and also then just go play with your siblings. Like, it's just, you switch gears, right? And it's that sort of mimics that dual processing model theory of grief, where we're not meant to be in a grief state at all time.

We also are not meant to be avoiding it at all times. So it's just this toggling between the two that is so helpful. And yet it sounds like the adult version of you, I don't know if forgot was the word or just because we're adults now, we have a different perspective. We're unable to tap into that toggling as easier as we were as children. What do you think in your experience shifted between your ability to do that as a child and this older version that felt so hesitant going down that road?

I think children are very innocent and they don't process everything cognitively. They just go with the flow and with their emotions and they're very good at being mindful and philosophical, just naturally. And then we lose that ability and then we have to learn it again at some point. And if we don't learn this again, that we tend to get stuck in these moments. What I found has really helped me when I said earlier that I wanted to regain agency. And at first it just seemed like...

I was like, how can I grieve on my terms? How can I choose? And I did really, like I spent a lot of time in my head and in books. And so I was really reading about how to use the body and how to use our emotions and how to manage these emotions when they come and go and about agency and emotions as well. And then I started to do that thing. And then later I used it in my work.

It sounds odd at first, but it's helped so many people, is that when grief comes, you know, we feel it. We know exactly what a grief wave feels like. We can feel it brewing and coming at us. And it's scary. Like, you're like, tense and bracing. And so when that happens now, I say to my grief, I see you, I hear you, and I will let you in, but not now. Now is not the right time. Now I'm busy with people that I love, people who...

care about and people I want to be fully present with. So that's one step to say not now, but the most important is the second one really, it's to really make time for it. And so I will literally make an appointment with myself, let's say Saturday evening, 8pm, and I will bring the candles out, put the sad music on, look at pictures, videos, cry my eyes out. I would just let all the emotions go through me.

but in my own terms and it doesn't work the first time. know, the first time you say, no, not now, it doesn't work. But you have to think of it like going to the gym. If you go to the gym once, you're not gonna see any difference. And you go twice and you go three times and you go for three weeks and you still might not see a difference. But you know that if you keep doing it, it is happening. And that's what has helped me a lot because now I feel like, okay, grief is here.

but it's no longer running the show. I'm in charge. I'm the boss now. Like I say, I'm the boss now. Grief is in my life, but I'm the boss. And that return to agency makes all the difference. I thank you for that example. And it's so helpful. There is something when your mind knows that you will get time to do this. You will get time to feel these feelings, just not in this very second. And so it kind of calms down, right? It's just like it comes.

Initially, maybe not so much, maybe not the first few weeks or months, but eventually you do have that trust with yourself that you will follow through on this. And it reminds me, my mom intuitively went into these, she calls them mommy car rides, where she visits the hospital, she visits the cemetery, she visits where they used to go to lunch, just intentionally going back to these places to allow herself to feel. And by the time she comes home, it's like,

like the body could breathe again. That's the ironic part because you would think, why would somebody do that? But for her, that's how she taps into that grief. That's how she spends time with his memory. And then by the time she comes home, she has dedicated time to that. So now she can shift to something else. And that's really powerful. So thank you. Speaking of the body, I think what shocked me the most about grief before I knew anything about it was how physical of an experience it is. So talk to us about

grief and the body and how can we move it through? It really is physical, isn't it? There's even like, you know, some people even talk about like grief brain, obviously, but also grief face. It's like, I feel like I looked different when I see pictures of myself after my brother died in 2019. I'm puffy. I don't look like myself. And I remember saying, I feel inflamed. I feel inflamed and I had no energy left.

My sleep was completely disrupted, I had lost the sense of appetite and satiety. And there are incredible, amazing studies that show that, how much the body is impacted and the brain. There is a shift in physiology that is similar to a physical injury. I mean, we tend to overlook that, but it's a really important fact. And just like a physical injury, we can't accelerate the process of healing. If you think of someone with a broken arm,

No one would ever say, can you make an effort, please? Can you get that arm, that bone to heal a bit faster? Can you please think yourself towards the mending of your broken arm? No one would say that. So why do we do that with grief? It doesn't make any sense. It is a real physical experience. There's a real brain fog. It is also partially due because grief, the loss of a loved one is perceived as a massive threat by the body. So the body is in a constant fight or flight response and

The energy, the little energy that we have is either dedicated to that fear or in reserve in case something terrible happens. And so there is little energy left for daily tasks, for the work we used to do before. It is biological, it's physiological. It's not that people don't want to make an effort. It's not that they've switched off from life with the best of intentions. It's just impossible. So it's really important to acknowledge that.

to keep in mind the analogy with a broken arm because I think it does make sense. And to also use that because I found that when the emotions were just too hard, too painful, too difficult, they were just, it was just like an open wound and there was nothing I seemed to be able to do. I started to tend to the body and to do little things.

but day after day after day. And that would be simple things like morning daylight to reset my circadian rhythm and help my body to fall asleep at night. Make sure I fuel and hydrate properly because this is very quickly neglected, proper fuel and proper hydration. And there's a concept coined by Lisa Feldman Barrett, a specialist of emotions. And she talks about the body budget. And so we know that, we all know that by experience. If we had a bad night's sleep,

We're just not going to be as upbeat if we're hungry. We're just not going to be in the best mood. If we're thirsty, if we go hiking and we forgot our water, we're not going to enjoy it as much. So when our body budget is depleted, our difficult emotions are heightened. So it's not going to heal everything or take it away, but it's going to take off the edge. So daylight in the morning, proper hydration, proper fuel, a bit of movement, whatever that means. And that can be as basic as breathing.

Breathing is movement or a walk or stretching, surrounding myself with people who give me energy without even trying to make sense of it because somehow everything is upside down and the people of whom you thought would be the ones comforting you or you know feeling good to be around, they're not. I'm not blaming anyone, you that's just a dynamic. And then other people who were maybe not that significant suddenly appear to be so soothing and comforting and

And so just follow, just follow that. And then simple moments of mindfulness, also physical, you know, like enjoying the warmth of a cup of coffee, the feeling of the sunshine on our skin, like these little things. So that was a list of five things that I would do day in, day out. Just look after, after my body. And that's something that I really recommend when emotions are too much, when everything seems too hard.

be pragmatic and do your body something good, it will return it.

Thank you. And hopelessness is a common feeling, especially just after the impact. So for somebody who feels like hope is inaccessible, joy is inaccessible, all these lighter emotions are inaccessible, would you say that the way back is through the body? Something else? What's your take on that? Yes, I think going through the body is never wrong. Our bodies are home and we are

far away from understanding the wisdom of our bodies. Our bodies know. So if we care for our body, the rest will follow. And what I found as well is that, like you say, especially at the beginning, it seems so over-encompassing. It's like grief is everywhere. In every part of the body, in every part of the room, it's just everywhere. And it feels like everything is just suffering. The whole life is just suffering.

And it's good sometimes to reflect in the evening, was there maybe a moment today where it softened a little bit? You know, where I smiled, did I smile today? Did I enjoy my cup of coffee? Did I enjoy a little interaction with the neighbor or... And to just notice these small moments and see if maybe there are a little bit more of them over time. Little glimmers of hope, know, when everything seems so dark to just...

hold on to these little things who will hopefully become more and more of a time again. It can feel less than exciting to wake up after the loss of a loved one. That next day is very jarring, those next few days and weeks, months. I remember I felt like, akin to what you're saying, I call it collecting data. The life is still worth living. And that data is so tiny sometimes. Like I saw a little blue jay or

the coffee or this five minute period where I felt calm in my body. It's so small, but these micro moments make all the difference and they add up. And it does make a difference to gain perspective and feel like, you know what, I can do this. It is going to be possible at least just one more day. So thank you for that. What would you say to somebody who says, Sylvia, time heals everything. Time heals all wounds. What would you say to somebody like that?

I think the analogy of the wound is a really good one because grief is a wound, literally. And just like any wound, some wounds do heal over time, which doesn't mean that they were not painful. They are very painful, but some wounds heal over time and some wounds don't. And when they don't, they don't stay as they are. They get worse, you know? So anyone grieving out there, if you're not quite sure, just ask yourself, how is my grief wound?

Is it slowly getting better or is it not? Because if it's not, then try to seek help or talk to a friend or like share it, like open up. Don't, don't try to go through that on your own because it can be really difficult unnecessarily. And another thing about wound is a beautiful quote that I love that a friend sent me when my brother died. I can't quote it exactly, but it says something like losing a loved one is like badly breaking an ankle. It will never fully heal.

and you will always have a slight limp. But even though you're limping, you're dancing again at some point. And the limp in your dance gives it the depth of its character. And I think this is such a beautiful analogy. You go through life limping, but it's a beautiful limp and it makes us special. It makes us who we are and we can still dance with that limp. That's a beautiful analogy. That's a beautiful quote. And you grow to love that limp in a way. just brings you closer to...

to the love more than the pain over time, feel like. What does healing look like? What is healing to you in the context of grief? There's no shortage of people claiming that they can help you heal, that we can get over things, that you could go back to normal, et cetera, et All this language, does it apply to grief? And what is the point of quote unquote healing in grief? That's such a good question. I would say healing is growing the capacity

handle the difficult moments. It's not getting rid of them because it's impossible. And again, I don't think we want to get rid of them, but it's to grow the capacity and the trust in ourselves that we can handle this. And I found that the things I learned from grief are applicable to any situation in life. And it really makes me more stable, more grounded, better capable of being here for my friends, for my family, for the people I work with.

So yeah. And on that note as well, I'm sure you've seen this in the news. There's these AI forward companies that want to get rid of grief. They want to help you create a certain digital avatar of your person so that you can heal through conversations with this digital avatar, if you will. I'm simplifying it right for the purpose of this conversation, but I'm so curious on what's your take on this movement.

Yeah, I can understand where it's coming from because the desperation when you lose a loved one is so extreme that it's really hard to think straight and you feel like you would do just anything to talk to them one more time, to feel their presence one more time. So I can understand where it's coming from, but I don't think it's a healthy way to cope because it's a bit delusional. And I think there is beauty.

in processing pain. know, there is beauty in embracing pain. Pain is not an enemy. That is really again a cultural concept. Pain is not an enemy. Pain is a teacher. Pain is indicating that there is something that was important, important enough to be felt so deeply. So I think we should also learn to not fear pain and to embrace it and to take the learnings from it. What is the purpose of grief?

Wow. From an evolutionary perspective, we don't really know. It could be that the suffering is so intense that we are then more caring about others. I think grief, from a personal perspective, is like a portal to another world. It shows you things you didn't know existed about yourself, about others and about life. And you discover it's like everything is heightened.

The intensity of the pain, when you come out on the other side of it, you also discover the intensity of a joy you didn't know existed, of gratitude you didn't know existed, of appreciation you didn't know existed. So I think it is a portal that is giving us beautiful life lessons. Grief is the toughest teacher in life, but it's probably also the best at teaching us what is important.

I resonate with that so much. I'm sitting here nodding, absolutely. And I know that this has become your life's work, your life's calling, and you support people in various capacities. So if somebody wanted to work with you one-on-one or learn about your work, where could they do so? And in what capacity could you work with them? So all of my work is on my website, my name, sylviawolfer.com, S-Y-L-V-I-A-W-O-L-F.

And you will find a lot of free resources there because I try to organize my work in a way that everyone really who resonates can have access. So there are a lot of articles, blog articles, articles for other news platforms, guided meditations, free guided meditations on Spotify, Apple podcast in English, but also in French and German. And then there's a digital library of online resources, one about sibling grief.

for people to do in their own time because sometimes it just feels safe to do things at your own pace at home. And then I do also offer one-to-one work. Not that much because I want to be fully present, but it's also available on my website. And Pilates, I shall not forget to mention this. There's an online class once a week to move gently and just go through the body to reach our emotions. Of course, that will be linked in the show notes.

You speak of gentle movements. Is there a reason why maybe somebody who has experienced a significant loss shouldn't do, let's say, high intensity training versus Pilates or yoga? Well, there's no reason why they shouldn't do that because sometimes it can feel so good to get the heart rate up, to get exhausted and to just let it out or to lift heavy, to run fast. That can be so, so helpful. But what moving slowly does, and again, it's just tapping into the beautiful intelligence of our body.

When we move slowly, we signal to the brain that we feel safe. So, you know, if you take the classic Sivasana position after yoga class, you lie on your back, palms facing up, feet rolling out to the side. This is a position that would be, as a hunter-gatherer in nature 200,000 years ago, very vulnerable and dangerous. You're exposing your chest, you're exposing your hips. You're like completely at the mercy of whatever tiger would jump at you.

And so we can use the body to show the nervous system that we feel safe. Just the fact to lie there like that will signal your brain safety. And then your fight or flight response will lessen a little bit. We basically want to help the parasympathetic nervous system to calm down a little bit. And then moving slowly is exactly the same. We only move slowly when we feel safe. If we don't feel safe, we move quickly. We feel rushed like that's the idea of the fight.

excuse me, of the fight or flight response to get that cortisol and adrenaline to get us move. So moving slowly is much more than just good for the joints and for the muscles and it is a signal of safety for the body. And certain positions, certain movements like rocking movements, tapping the shoulders, bilateral movements, these are all super soothing for the body. We don't quite understand why. We don't know the mechanism, but we know that it works.

And that return to the body is so key. We are taught, at least in the Western world, we're taught to separate our emotions. We're taught to deal with everything from the neck up. And so much of grief work is reintegrating and coming back home to our body from the neck down, connecting everything, mind, body, spirit in a way that feels safe and full of agency. So it sounds like you help people do just that. Talk to us about post-traumatic growth. What is the role of post-traumatic growth in all of this?

Yeah, you know, adversity can break us really, but it can also help us grow and grow strength or tap into strength we already had, but we didn't know we had. so for me, example, grief, and that might seem strange, but it kind of took the anxiety away. Because now I'm like, well, I've been through that. I can handle, you know, whatever life threw at me. And so,

I learned to not be worried about the future too much and to just really enjoy the present moment and appreciation. All these things are post-traumatic growth and the ability to regulate our emotions, to feel comfortable with pain. All of this is post-traumatic growth because let's be honest, life comes with challenges. It is what it is. It's neither good or bad. It's not fair or unfair. There's no such thing in nature. It just is.

So I think through traumatic events and difficulties in life, we can grow the capacity again to handle these moments better. And there's a term called the window of tolerance. don't know if you've heard this coined by a psychologist in the nineties. And so we all have a window of tolerance and there is stress in life. There will always be stress. We can't avoid it, right? And so we have a window within which we can handle the ups and downs of stress.

That window will shrink or expand depending on the season of our life. Obviously when we grieve, that window shrinks. We have less capacity to handle stress. But if we are above the window of tolerance, we are irritable, angry, restless, nervous. And if we go below the window of tolerance, we feel lethargic, sad, we have no motivation, nothing is appealing. And so I think post-traumatic growth is about learning to find, to feel our window of tolerance.

and learning to navigate the world, trying to stay within that window of tolerance. That's such a helpful resource and information to know because it brings context that each of our windows has its own capacity and that capacity shifts depending on our season and life. Thank you so much. We're getting to the end here, Sylvia. I do want to get your perspective on continued bonds. Is that something that you practice? And if so, what does that look like for you and each of your family members that are now transitioned?

Yeah. So every loss was a very different experience. And I will share that. I've never shared that on a podcast and also very rarely in general, I rarely talk about this. So when my younger brother died when I was 17, it was terrible. I felt like I was dead inside and I was angry at life for not being allowed to die myself as well. Cause I felt like I can't kill myself.

can't do that to my brothers and to my mom. So that's how much pain and sadness was in me. And I felt like I had become pain and sadness. That's how I moved through life and just thinking of him was painful. Hearing his voice on videos was painful. Anything related to him was so sensitive that I couldn't face it. And this is still valid to this day. I'm hypersensitive.

regarding anything with him, even saying his name was emotional. And I wish I had known back then what I know now so that I could really feel warmth and comfort thinking of him. So with my older brother who died in 2019, it's completely different. In lockdown, I spent hours painting, listening to music, and having imaginary conversations with him.

And because we were so close and we knew each other so well, I know exactly what he would say. Like, you know, I can ask questions and I get the answers. So I have these conversations with him and they're just so beautiful. So I'm sharing this, not, you know, for compassion or pity or I'm sharing this because if you find yourself in a grieving situation that is really painful and you can't see the end of it, please seek help because it doesn't have to be like that. You want to reach a point.

where thinking of your loved one brings a smile, a genuine warm smile where it feels like a hug and not like a stabbing pain anymore.

I appreciate that you said it's different with each loss because that brings very true. And you have lived in different places, some that lean more towards Buddhist beliefs and others towards Western beliefs, etc. Have you experienced a difference in how people address grief in different countries? Yeah, very much so. So in Buddhist countries, it's approached really differently. So they have a beautiful tradition that they call a dana.

which happens three months after someone dies and then every year after once a year. so everyone is invited and the family makes food for everyone. And it's a bit like Christmas or Thanksgiving. Kids are running around and they talk about their loved ones. There's a lot of joy, a lot of tears and there's that beautiful integration of the past, the legacy, the love, but also the future and the present. So that was something that I was very grateful to experience. And then I'm going to tell you

an anecdote. So I met my partner in Sri Lanka and the first year we were together, he said to me, my dad died on his birthday was on February 10th and he died on February 11th. Very similar to you, to your brother. And he said, and it's next week, shall we do something? And me, know, like good European. I said, yes, of course, let's go out. Let's have, you know, let's have a nice dinner together. Let's do something together.

And he looks at me almost a bit embarrassed and he said, well, I was actually thinking handing out meals to homeless people. And I thought, my God, I was so embarrassed. And he was like, that's what we do. So there's that idea that to honor your loved one, you give. And that was such a beautiful lesson. I love that you do something, you give to others to honor your loved one. So that's a little gem from Buddhism. A gem indeed. Thank you so much. It was so embarrassing.

No, no, mean, we don't know what we don't know and we also have, we live life through our own lens and experiences. So what a beautiful exchange there of perspective and what could be done differently. It also sounds like there's a community aspect and a connection with others aspect to navigating grief in perhaps other cultures that we could definitely learn from and implement here as well. Yes. You know, one simple thing just to finish is that

When you travel in Buddhist countries, you very often see a statue of Buddha lying down. And it's actually a statue of Buddha dying. And he smiles. He's so peaceful. He smiles. And it really touched me. Children here in Cambodia and in Sri Lanka, they go to the temple every Sunday. You know, they learn about the stories of the Buddha. I found it so beautiful that the image they have from a very young age of someone dying is so peaceful. There is no pain.

in Buddha dying and that alone is already, I think, very meaningful for children. Truly, because it's what they learn. It's embedded in their understanding of life and death. Wow, very powerful. I didn't know that. Thank you so much. closing out the conversation, first of all, thank you for all of your wisdom and everything you've shared, your openness. If there's something that you would like to include in the conversation that we didn't touch on, and if not, I'll go to the final question.

Well, the one thing I love to finish the podcast with, and I know I've mentioned it before, but I think it's so important. If you feel lost, tend to your body. Look after your body. It's your temple, it's your home. And if your body feels better, you will feel better as well. Everything will follow in time. Thank you. Final question. What would Sylvia today say to Sylvia after the loss of your mom?

you will become the woman she always saw in you. Losing a mom is very, very particular. And I found that ever since she's gone, also maybe because my older brother and my dad are gone, but I'm like the head of the family and I feel like I've stepped into my power as a woman. And I feel so much more confident and aligned and I know who I am and I love who I am. And I step up and I show up in the world very differently. So it's like I'm...

I'm a little bit more that woman that she was as well.

sure she would appreciate those words. Sylvia, thank you. It has been an absolute honor. Thank you for sharing your wisdom with us and thank you for being you and all you do. Thank you so much, Nina, for having me. That was a wonderful conversation. Thank you for your work. It's so precious. That's it for today's episode. Be sure to subscribe to the Grief and Light podcast. I'd also love to connect with you and hear your thoughts and your stories. Feel free to share them with me via my Instagram page at griefandlight.

or can also visit griefandlight.com for more information and updates. Thank you so much for being here, for being you, and always remember, you are not alone.