Friend-Loss Grief Is Real: Disenfranchised grief with Hannah Rumsey of Friends Missing Friends

In a world where grief is often tied to family ties and romantic relationships, the loss of a friend can feel isolating and unrecognized.

Hannah Rumsey is a writer, certified Grief Educator, and the founder of Friends Missing Friends. After losing her best friend Lauren in 2015, Hannah went searching for support and found almost nothing. No grief groups. Not even a Google search result that addressed her experience directly. What she found instead was disenfranchised grief, a term that changed everything.

In this episode, Hannah and Nina explore why friend-loss is one of the most overlooked and invalidated forms of grief, and what it costs us when we leave it out of the conversation. Hannah shares the story of how she found out about Lauren's death (through a birthday post on Facebook), what it took to sit five feet away from the man responsible for her friend's death during his trial in Spain, the stunning sign she received from Lauren through her phone, and why she believes Lauren has been pulling strings from the other side ever since.

They also talk about the false hierarchy of grief, what it means to question whether your own loss "counts," and why being around people who simply believe you — without explanation or qualification — can be one of the most healing experiences a friend-loss griever can have.

In this episode:

• What disenfranchised grief is and why friend-loss fits squarely inside it
• The false hierarchy of love (and grief) our society has built
• Why finding out about a friend's death through social media is more common than we think
• The Netflix documentary The Predator of Seville and Lauren's story
• How Hannah sat in the courtroom five feet from the man who killed her friend
• The moment Lauren's photo appeared on Hannah's phone, updated by Lauren
• Why friend-loss grievers feel pressure to qualify and explain their own loss
• How grief rituals can be personal, messy, and entirely your own
• The Friends Missing Friends Collective, an online community for friend-loss grievers
• What Hannah would say (and not say) to herself on the day she lost Lauren

Connect with Hannah Rumsey:

• Friends Missing Friends (website, online membership, and podcast): friendsmissingfriends.com
• IG @friendsmissingfriends
• Netflix documentary: The Predator of Seville

If you've ever lost a friend and felt like you had to explain why it mattered, this episode is for you.

Transcript

I scroll down to read the other birthday messages and there were a lot of posts, but they all said rest in peace. It's not uncommon for someone to find out a friend dies through social media because you might not be on the list of people to be called. It was very traumatic to find out through news article headlines. Your brain just can't accept whenever you get traumatic news, like I feel like it often takes a while for it to sink in because you're like, but I just talked to them.

you just don't want it to be real. You just lost your loved one. Now what? Welcome to the Grief in Life Podcast, where we explore this new reality through grief colored lenses. Openly, authentically, I'm your host, Nina Rodriguez. Let's get started. How do we grieve the loss of a friend in a world that tends to invalidate this form of grief? Hello and welcome back to the Grief and Life Podcast. My name is Nina Rodriguez and I'm your host and today's guest is Hannah Rumsey.

She is a writer, certified grief educator, and founder of Friends Missing Friends. After losing her best friend Lauren in 2015, Hannah noticed a profound absence of support for friend loss grievers, and she set out to change that. She created the Friends Missing Friends Collective for people navigating this deeply disenfranchised form of grief. Her mission is to bring friend loss out of the shadows and into the conversation it deserves. Hannah, welcome to the Grief and Light Podcast.

Thank you so much for having me. It's an absolute honor. Like we mentioned earlier, this truly is a disenfranchised form of grief that really deserves much more open conversation. I actually see parallels in friend loss and sibling loss, the type of grief and how it's addressed or not addressed in the public discourse. So we'll get into all of that for our listeners. What is disenfranchised grief in your own words, particularly as it relates to friendship loss?

Yeah, so how I like to describe a disenfranchised grief is that it is not validated, supported, or acknowledged by our wider society. so friend loss grief is absolutely disenfranchised. And I I realized that only a few years ago, and I've been grieving a friend since twenty fifteen. So I was maybe seven years into my grief before I was like, Whoa.

Now I understand what's happening here. because I think I learned the term and I was like, that's what this is. so like it shows up in many ways, but in one, I'll give it just a couple examples, but there's so many examples. One is it's not validated or supported in that we don't get bereavement leave. In almost every workplace, you get bereavement leave if it's a close

blood relative. So even like I I mean I could rant about this forever, but even if like an uncle dies, you might not get bereavement leave because it's not like a direct blood relative. And so then also for a friend, they're not a blood relative, so you wouldn't get bereavement leave either. I think I had to use sick days for myself. And another way, no supporter validation or acknowledgement, there's almost no friend loss groups out there.

you'll find groups for parent loss, spouse loss, pet loss, sibling loss, other losses as you should, and they absolutely should exist. And there should be groups for friend loss too. So those are just two examples of of many where yeah, our wider society does not acknowledge it or help it as it should be. Thank you for naming that. And you're absolutely right. I didn't even think about that, that you don't get bereavement leave.

We're already struggling to get bereavement leave in the first place. And you definitely don't get that you know, with with friendship loss. And it's one of those things like you you have to name it, you have to bring it out in the public discourse, you have to explain to people. We shouldn't have to, but we we're in this position where we have to explain to people why this is a valid form of grief. And I'm so grateful that you're doing that through your show.

Which to my knowledge is the only show that I know of, right? Maybe I haven't seen any new ones, but I it's the only show that I know of that addresses this head on. Maybe some people talk about it. Like there's my gosh, what's her name? Amber. Yeah. With her friend Puppy. A lot of people know her in the grief space. And unfortunately she lost her best friend. And other than that, I really have not heard much about it. So

Before we get into like how you created your podcast and everything, I would love for our listeners to get to know your story and get to know who Lauren was and how all of that evolved into the Friends Missing Friends podcast. Yeah, thank you so much. I'll start with who Lauren is. I met her when we were teenagers. She was 15 and I was 17. So there was a bit of an age gap, but neither of us felt that gap at all.

Like we really felt like we were just the same age, the same the same like even like developmental stage. I don't know. We just like really clicked in 2009. We met in the registration line, you know, after we met, we we kind of ran off to explore the grounds together. And it was like from that moment on, we pretty much didn't leave each other's side unless, you know, we had to go to band rehearsal or like

go to bed in our separate cabins. And so we spent so many hours together because like at a summer camp, it's like twenty four seven you're with each other. It's not like adult life, you know, where you schedule a coffee, you know, once a week or something. I actually did the math once. It was about ten years of friendship in six weeks. ten years of late 'cause that's even before like

I don't is that before social media? Like it's or right at the beginning of social media. So it's not even like you have the connection that we take for granted nowadays. Kind of at the Facebook was kind of a thing, but not like it is today. So we had this really intense, really fast-paced, really deep friendship. and those six weeks were pretty much all the time we spent together in person. so after that we saw each other once, and then we had virtual

long distance friendship. Grief is so weird and so complex, but like some days I feel like I'm just continuing a really, really long distance friendship, you know, where I just can't get really get the messages back from her, but I'm like sending them out to her. And yeah, it's like, you know, where some days they feel really close and other days they feel really, really far away. And you're like, where are you? You know.

Yeah. Yeah. And a side note to that. My my mom always says, you know, there's still we're about seven years. We're going to be seven years out, since the loss of my brother and or obviously her son. And she says, it still feels like he's like off somewhere. Like maybe he's in another country and I just haven't heard from him for a long time. So when you said that, it reminds me of that feeling of it's just maybe they're just somewhere far away, but like they're not really gone, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's it it does

It does feel like that. And then, you know, some days it feels different. So yeah, it's very confusing. but yeah, so s to describe her, she was so funny. So funny. And like everyone I ever connect with who also knew her is like, yeah, she was the funniest person I've ever known. And she would just like make silly faces or like,

Yeah, kind of like do voices, like the the kind of like the goofy, funny, you know, really unself-conscious. She did not care about making a fool of herself. and she really unlocked that in me. And that's like we really bonded over that because I love being silly too. But like, I think maybe didn't let myself indulge in that or felt like that part was locked away. And yeah, with her, we were just like a couple goofballs.

I miss I miss that. And I I miss yeah, I you know, I miss every part of our friendship, obviously. But yeah. Well, she sounds like a light and just that feeling of of like a breath of fresh air. I heard you say on a different conversation, your personality's more I and T J and same. I might I and T J in a Mearsberg. so if it's anything that, you know, if I could relate to that, it's like we're a bit more closed off.

are, you know, a little bit more shy, more introverted. So there's that sense of like, yeah, all the silliness. We have a very rich inner world, but the silliness doesn't come out unless we have like that counterpart that kind of gets us to feel comfortable. So does that resonate at all? Yes. Thank you for explaining what I just said so much better. Yeah, that's exactly it. Like I I need someone to bounce off of. Like and I and I like

It's just amazing how it only takes one person. It takes one person for you to belong, for you to feel like you can function, you know, for you to open up. And like she was that one person. And she also like helped me to interact with the world. Like because I think I'm so introverted, I often need like that sidekick to

be then outgoing with everyone else. And like she was that with me a hundred percent. That totally resonates. And that was one of my a similar experience in high school, my best friend back then, we met in math class. And I remember she sat next to me. She was so bubbly and she said, I love math class. I looked at her, I was like, I hate math class. And we became best friends. She was like the ray of sunshine to my like

Wednesday Adams vibe. I love that. So it sounds like it's not the same thing, but it's like a something like that, that it was very complimentary in that sense. Yeah. Yeah. So then at that point you're in this camp and you spend so much time together. And I know what you mean because there's an intensity to being 24-7 with somebody. And it's like you accelerate timelines, if you will. So there's that quality to it. So at what point did things shift or did you learn about

Heard her passing. Yeah. So six years pass of us being long distance friends. We talk every few months or every several months, depending on the year. We were really busy with college. but when whenever we would talk, we would Skype, which was what people used at the time, and we would Skype for like four or five hours and just be howling with laughter. And in twenty fifteen

Her birthday is July 19th. I remembered it was her birthday. I remembered she was in Spain studying abroad. I went to her Facebook to post a happy birthday message. I actually posted a birthday message and was like, can't wait to hear about your trip in Spain. We actually were going to Skype like as soon as she got back. So we had talked a little earlier to have that Skype call. and then I post it and then I

Scroll down to read the other birthday messages and there were a lot of posts, but they all said rest in peace.

And I've I've heard from a lot of people actually, it's not uncommon for someone to find out a friend dies through social media because you might not be on the list of people to be called. and that's just kind of the place where news personal news is. there's no good way to find out, right? Like a call is also traumatic.

And slash but it was very traumatic to find out through news article headlines. It was like Penn State Senior dies after fall from balcony in Spain. And I'd be like, What? Like that that that's not her. Like your brain just can't accept whenever you get traumatic news, like I feel like it often takes a while for it to sink in because you're like, but I just talked to them. Like 'cause you just don't want it to be real.

Yeah. Yeah, so that's that's how I found out. and it's actually been a pretty much an eleven year journey of finding out what happened. and literally few months ago, a Netflix documentary came out called The Predator of Seville and her death is heavily covered in that. And I found out a lot of new information. Yeah.

Yeah. So first of all, my heart goes out to you because that is a like you said, there's no better way to find out. But there's just such a shock factor seeing it on social media. There's something that feels like you got robbed of that personal link that you have to the person to like why didn't I get the news? And in the actually I'll let you share your perspective, but talk to us about this weird

hierarchy of grief that we have when it comes to who should know first, whose inner circle, and how that played out for you and maybe what have you learned since. So just the overall hierarchy of grief that so many people have in their minds when there really is none. but would love your thoughts on that. So I feel like the hierarchy of grief that we have in our society is pretty much based on the hierarchy of love that we've set up. That I think is a false hierarchy.

I just want to briefly explain that first, that like I've looked into it a lot because very interested in finding out more about why this is. And I'm like, wait a minute, we don't really treat friendships as very important either. So of course we wouldn't treat friend loss grief as important if we don't treat friendships as important, in that like just the way our laws are set up, the way our traditions are set up, revolve mostly around familial and romantic love.

And I see it as a yes and situation. I do not want to take anything away from familial or romantic love. They are very important. But then there should be places for friendship love too. So yeah, that I mean, so much of it depends on the individual. I've heard of people who were completely supported by the family of their deceased friend.

And treated as incredibly important throughout the process, kept in touch with them. I've heard of people who the family didn't even know they existed. so they don't have that connection at all. Anywhere in between, you know, where they're left out entirely. I feel like I was really lucky and that Lauren's mother especially was very very tender, very loving, very like.

was like, yes, absolutely, you were important to Lauren. And so I feel like I got that connection where a lot a lot of people don't get that connection. And then that I had a whole other layer of grief and and grieving when Lauren's mother died and I lost that connection. And then there actually was no more family connection. So yeah, it's very complicated because there's no system set up in our society.

Pretty much completely dependent on the individual circumstance. And thank you for naming all of those dynamics. Because in, you know, the parallel that I can relate to in terms of sibling loss, the disenfranchised part is that the hierarchy is the parents, the ultimate grief, and that's it. It ends there. So, you know, of course a parent's grief is.

Absolutely like, you know, devastating and very valid, and we're thankful that they asked. And also, this is the grief that we know. That's the grief that you knew or know to this day. and so the need to validate that is so important because you I think you named it earlier that you sought out resources and there really wasn't anything. I'm curious how that made you feel when you searched and you didn't find anything. Yeah, I mean when I searched and to this day.

To this day, by the way, if I search, a lot of articles will pop up about how to support a friend who's grieving. So I kind of joke that like Google doesn't even understand what you're asking for. Like it's like does not compute. Like I tend to think like, it's just me, like I'm bad at Googling, like I just using the wrong keywords. But then

I talked to someone literally last week and they were like, Yeah, what came up with me was articles about how to support a grieving friend. And I was like, my God, it's not just me. Like, my Google's the same as your Google. so yeah, and how that felt how that feels is like like you feel like you don't matter. And also when you're grieving and you're overwhelmed in that grief, all you can really, all you have the energy for is to put in a Google search. You don't have the energy to

really dig deep and like reach out to people and ask and like maybe if you dig really deep, maybe you can find something somewhere, but like it should not be that hard. You should be able to Google and have something come up for you. Absolutely. And you know, I I could see if you are searching in that moment and nothing comes up, it's can feel invalidating. I know it did for me. Like it's very invalidating because it's another point of reinforcing

your grief doesn't matter or you're overreacting or you shouldn't feel this way or whatever you want to make of that. So it's good to validate this through these conversations. This is how we shift the conversations. And there's another element that you just touched on about the way in with in which Lauren passed, which was very tragic. I watched the documentary. It was, I'm not going to give much away if somebody wants to watch it and I'm not going to go into into details, but it was very impactful. And it's very

sad and disturbing the way in which it happened. But I want you to touch on as much or as little as you feel comfortable with. Obviously we want to be respectful of her family. And I know that her mother's not here, but still we want to be mindful of how we handle these conversations. But maybe touch on how that experience was was for you. I believe you were involved in and also like when you I don't know if you've seen it. And if so, how did it make you feel? Yeah. Thank you for these questions. And

Thank you for watching it. It's not an easy watch. it does end on an empowering note. I'm glad that they had have it end that way. But yeah, it's it's it's a tough watch. I have been in touch with the okay, sorry, I have to back up because I have felt Lauren was involved in this documentary from the beginning. And I'll explain why I feel that way. So without giving

Specifics. Basically, I mean, you can tell from the title of the documentary. There is a predator who lives in Seville, Spain. Lauren was a victim, and she died because of him. And as far as we know, she's the only woman who's died, but basically he would target young American women studying abroad. A few years ago, I learned more information about him. I've basically been learning bits and pieces about him over the years through various sources.

And a few years ago I learned more about how like he basically like ran his tour company for the purpose of finding women. And when I learned that I was I just went into this panic, like this, like my thoughts were racing. I was like, my God, my God. There I remember walking down the street holding like a melting ice cream cone. It was like melting down my arm. And I was like,

There has to be a documentary. There has to be a documentary made about that. Like we have to the we have to get the word out. Like, my God, like how how do I do that? And I'm thinking, like, how do I do that? Like, do I know of anyone? Like, they're and I'm just freaking out. And then this peace swashed over me in an instant. Like I just immediately went calm. And then I heard a voice in my head. And this is the only time I've ever heard a voice in my head. And it said,

It's being taken care of.

Two days later, I got an email from the Spanish journalists who have since made that Netflix documentary. I mean, the timing is also like insane. And they were like, Gabrielle Vega gave us your name. She said, You're a friend of Lauren. We would like to talk. We're making a documentary. And I was like, chills. What yeah, it's it's it's insane. So I

I have felt like also like I really trust Gabrielle, like I've been in touch with her, and I trusted that sign, which I believe is from Lauren. And I was like, they're making this documentary for the right reasons. Lauren wants this to be made. And so I went to see the tour guides trial in Spain in person. I just felt strongly to to to witness it. And this is gonna be a bizarre metaphor, but.

I read Harry Potter growing up. I don't know if you've read Harry Potter. I have not, but I'm familiar with Harry Potter. Okay. Well, the the concept, in the last book, Harry has to face his ultimate enemy, Voldemort. What gives him the courage is he has the resurrection stone and when he turns it, his loved ones who have died kind of show up in spirit form and surround him and give him the courage to face death and like face his enemy.

So that because that's the the the reference I have. That's actually a beautiful analogy. And I think our audience would get it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So I asked for so much support because I had to face this tour guide in person. He had to basically be five, ten feet away from me all three days. I prayed, asked for guidance, imagined energy around me, everything I could. And

It worked. I truly felt like there was a barrier and like I had no fear of him. I stared him down. and I felt like I was surrounded. Like I feel like Lauren was there. I feel like Lauren's mother was there, like protecting me. It was it was a really wild experience, and like I was able to face the enemy head on, like it was.

An absolutely insane experience. And I just put together that her mother didn't get to see this. She her mother passed before wow. Yeah. Did you get to talk to her mother before or af you know, while this was happening, before obviously she passed? about the documentary or or any part of it. Did you ever have a, you know, a conversation that maybe I don't not closure, closure is not the right word, but something that addressed the loss?

We talked on Facebook Messenger a lot, and we talked on the phone once, but we mostly texted and she was just frantically trying to take him to court.

And this was something I d I did not know that I learned in the documentary, which is that she was on her deathbed as this she pursued a civil trial against him because she wasn't able to pursue a criminal trial, which is a whole other can of worms. And she was on her deathbed and was like, I'm gonna hold on to life until there's a verdict. The civil trial was ruled a against him. You know, she won the case and then she died a few days later. Wow.

Which I was like, I I just I had no idea. I had no idea that that happened. and that that was the timing. yeah, so I yeah, I was in touch with her a lot, you know, when she was alive. And I feel strongly that she would want this documentary to come out because she she just wanted anybody to listen because like she never really got to see that.

That kind of switch when people finally started to listen. She was experiencing like the before where it was like screaming into an empty void where like no one really seemed to be taking her seriously.

Yeah. I I mean it was horrible. And it was horrible like watching her go through that. And then it makes me really sad that she wasn't here to see it being taken seriously, like by the public in this way. At least not in person. Kind of there's a part of me that wants to believe that, you know, that beautiful protective energy that you felt. they get to see this outcome in some way, shape, or form. I hope they do because it's just

y it was really soul crushing. You know, I don't want to go into details, but like if if somebody watches a documentary, they'll understand why this had so many layers and it truly was a tragedy. So for you to learn about it and for her mother to go through this and just for it to be so public, there's another element that most people will never have to deal with when it comes to a loss unless there's something that's very public facing. And that's another thing.

share a bit about how did that impact you as things were coming out as you saw it more publicly. Yeah. Yeah. So it is a very bizarre experience that I feel like most people don't have. I mostly feel very lucky because the documentary I feel like was really it wasn't sensationalizing it. It was done for the right I feel.

It was done for the right reasons. It was to raise awareness and, you know, get the word out and basically bring the darkness to light. Because of that, I feel really grateful and really lucky. Because I feel like so much of the time we want our grief to be witnessed. And I feel like now I like I don't have to explain because it's so complex and there's so much darkness that's been in my grief for all these years, because of

everything. And now I can just be like, here's the documentary if you want to understand. Because I I can't really explain it better than than that. I haven't seen a whole lot of it's kind of hard because it's like in some ways, it's like I know a lot of people are seeing it, but you don't really see that impact. but I've seen, you know, some videos in social media about it and

luckily I haven't seen anything hurtful. I've only seen people being like, wow, this is terrible, or like, you know, justice for Lauren and things like that. And that feels really validating. So far, at least, it being public has been a mostly a positive experience. But having it all resurfaced and learning new upsetting information has been really hard. And I had to be really like

have a lot of grace for myself and be like, I am functioning in 20% capacity, my thoughts are racing every day. I walk into a room and I don't know what I'm doing. That's grief. It's okay. So there was a lot of that happening for a few months for sure. I can imagine. And and it is a lot. And I could see how a lot of that resurfaces with the information that you that you received. At what point did you take all of this grief and all of this desire to support others or create awareness?

And turn it into friends missing friends. Yeah. So it was about 2020 that I had the idea to start a podcast. And I remember the name Friends Missing Friends was the first thing that came to me. I like to believe, you know, Lauren helped me come up with that name because I don't think I could have come up with it on my own. I basically started interviewing friends and friends of friends. And it just kind of grew from there. And then about a year ago, I

realized I wanted to host support groups. Because, like I said, even to this day, there really aren't any. Like you were saying, Amber Jeffrey is the only other person I've ever seen also host friend loss support groups. So yeah, I started doing that. And then in January of this year, 2026, I started the Friends Missing Friends Collective, which is an affordable membership-based online community because I wanted someone to be able to join

whenever and not worry about fitting into like a six week schedule. Cause in my experience in the overwhelm of grief, it was easier to fall into something that's already existing and like staying as long as I needed. So I wanted that to be like the structure. And it's been a beautiful experience. And yeah, everyone who's joined has been like, this is the first time I've ever found something for Friend Lost Grief. And thank you so much for having this space.

And I still think it's crazy that there's almost nothing else. That's just wild to me. Yeah. it truly is. And in leading those groups, have you seen your grief evolve in any sort of way, or has something been revealed? you know, I believe these groups mirror our grief or they show us w our own part of our healing, or we see grief differently in the way we witness others. What has come up for you in these groups and in your experience?

Yeah, that's such a good question. Wow. I love that.

Yeah, I mean I feel like first generally speaking, like it's been so healing for me to connect with others and to support others. Like it it's a reminder that like you we literally are not alone. We're not the only one experiencing this level of pain. and yeah, just like being with others who get it. Like

It's a very niche, very specific grief that has really specific pain points that other types of grief don't have. For example, something I've found in myself that I've found that others also struggle with is that we question our grief because friends is a is more of a fluid term where like if someone is my is my mother, they are my mother. No one can really argue that they're not. But with a friend, you

o we often have to feel like we have to explain. Like, no, no, no, but we're they're a close friend. And this is why. Like we knew each other this long and th they were like a a sister to me and they were like this to me. We feel like we have to explain. And when we're in a group of other people who understand that and and understand the grief of losing a friend, you don't really feel like you have to explain. If you tell me I love them and they are a beloved friend, like I believe you.

We believe you. You don't have to validate it for qualify your grief. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And that that is such an important point you name because even if somebody was estranged from a friend and then they find out years later, let's say, of their friends passing, even if you just had a fight, even if I just like to add that even if dot dot dot fill in the blank.

You could still feel grief and your grief is still valid. And you do not have to qualify the degree to which you were friends, like and all these things. Like it's like you say, just the fact that you were friends and it impacted you, that's valid enough. And I really appreciate that there's a space for that. And that's really important to help each other. Like you said, grief needs witnessing. And so it's it's part of that process. Absolutely. I'm so glad you said that because that's

been something that I've been really vocal about or tried to be vocal about, like on Instagram, for instance, like the even if dot dot dots, because there's so many of those where like

Yeah, like, but but we didn't see each other for ten years, or but we didn't call each other best friend. It doesn't matter. Like your grief is valid, your love is real, your love is valid. Yeah. And I really I feel like the fact that it's disenfranchised is why we we question those and and we we invalidate it. But you're right, like it's all valid. Absolutely. Yeah. And to, you know, to give friendships more credit, friends are a chosen family, if you will. Like they're our chosen people.

if the label of family doesn't fit, but it's it's the people that we feel a kinship with and a special bond with. And we don't need words to explain that. So at whatever point you lost your your person, your beloved friend, it's it's all valid. So I'm glad that we're bringing that part of the conversation. And there are no, to my knowledge, grief rituals for friendships. Is there some way that you have found to honor

your bond, your friendship, her memory, and what would you say to somebody that is looking for something to ground this as I say like grief is love with nowhere to go. So it's like ground this grief and give it somewhere to go, if you will. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It's that's so true. Is b you know, that there's no like maybe quote unquote traditional morning ritual that that everyone does for friend loss. I

Yeah, I feel like I feel like I'm just kind of almost throwing spaghetti at the wall, like I'll do and everything and anything. Like I I planted a tree in her memory. I have a shrine. I you know, I do this work, I do the podcast, I'm I'm writing a memoir about it, I'm making a documentary about it. Like I I need it to move through me and I'm doing it in literally every way I can think of.

And I used to be self-conscious about that because, you know, society wants our grief to be small and tidy and and mine is messy and constant. And so I'm like, my God, I'm being so like obsessed. I'm so obsessed about this. But it's like, no, I just want I want my love, like you're saying, like I want my love to go in as many places as possible. And like that's helpful for me. So

yeah, I don't know. I don't know if I have a recommendation because it's I feel like it's so specific to the individual, but like I guess my recommendation would be to to try things and to see how they feel and like and yeah, just to know that it's valid and you have every right to do any kind of ritual you want, and that feels good for you. Yes, absolutely. The rituals are very personal and there's not one thing we're supposed to be doing.

It's whatever works. And for the record, some of us are more vocal processors. You know, more we we process externally. And there's some people that are processed quietly, close to the heart, internally in the privacy of their own home. Both are valid. You don't need to be like, you know, y starting podcasts or whatever. Yeah. But you know, if you choose to, that is perfectly fine. I'm curious how you balance and I ask this because I I it's something I have to think about all the time. Like,

What part is my story to tell versus keep that out of the conversation for the sake of privacy or respect to the other person? How do you balance that? Yeah, and I that's a great question because I feel like that comes up a lot for friend loss grief. I I've been thinking of it as like anything to do with our friendship and my story, I feel like I'm allowed to tell. Any personal details about her, I wouldn't reveal. The story of her death, because it's public.

And because it's online and it's on Netflix, because of that I feel like I can talk about it. But yeah, before that, I I it was tricky to know whether I could talk about that. But yeah, it's it it is. It's it's hard. I I don't think it's necessarily black and white, but yeah, it's like if it's something that she wouldn't want people to know, if it's something secretive I would never reveal. But yeah. Thank you for that. Yeah, and the same, you know, it's it's with my family, my mom's very private.

So there's a lot that I don't talk about in terms of her side of the story. And it's always like, okay, well, what part is mine? And and this is I'm sharing because it's something that impacted me versus what part is like maybe not honoring her boundaries, I guess is the way I would phrase it. So thank you for for sharing that. And I heard you just name that you're doing a documentary. Is there anything you could share about that? Or is that a little bit like not you can't share it yet?

Yeah, I'll share about it. It's a pretty new development. it happened very quickly. So I I had the idea maybe six, seven months ago and then happened to know people who are filmmakers and I pitched it to them and they were like, Heck yeah. So then I was like, gosh, it's happening. I gotta get my ducks in the road. Okay, it's happening now. Yeah. but yeah, so speaking of Amber Jeffrey from the Grief Gang,

She's a huge part of the documentary because I I went to the UK and interviewed her, talking about her beloved friend Poppy Chancellor, who founded the Grief Case and did a lot of work around grief. And I felt so honored because I got to film with their permission, of course, a gathering in Poppy's memory with Amber, mutual friends, and Poppy's mother.

where they talked about Poppy, processed their grief out loud, and it was just an incredibly powerful spiritual experience. and in addition to interviewing Amber, I also interview a friend who I met on Instagram. Her name's Nina and she talks about her beloved friend Ro who died a few years ago. So the documentary will follow

My journey, like going to the UK and meeting Amber and Nina in person for the first time. And then also them talking about and grieving their friends, Ro and Poppy. And then, you know, my journey with my grief of Lauren. And yeah, it'll be a couple of years or you know, a year or two editing the documentary, but I'm really excited for this project. Yeah. What a powerful conversation, what a powerful conversation.

way to showcase what it actually looks like in real life and what a powerful like meeting, just even just being able to connect because I love these virtual connections, but there's something about when we see each other in person, it's like, my gosh, there's that understanding, there's that kinship, there's that friendship, if you will. Yeah. And it just really comes together. So all of it, I can't wait to see it. That's really exciting. And if people wanted to connect with you, your work, if they wanted to join one of your groups, where can they find all of this information?

Yeah. So my website is friendsmissingfriends dot com. And you can also email me at friendsmissing friends at gmail dot com and my Instagram. Instagram is where I'm most active on social media. It's at friends missing friends. yeah, please feel free to reach out to me. and if you have questions about the peer support groups, let me know. I'd yeah, I would I would love to talk to you. Perfect. And of course those will be linked in the show notes. So

go there as well. And I'm curious now, like, you know, it's been only 11 years. Your bond is very much alive. Just because time, our linear time goes by, doesn't mean that our love fades or things change in that regard. We could very much practice continued bonds. We could still feel their connection. So in what ways have you practiced continued bonds and what has that looked like for you? Yeah, I talk to her a lot, either in my head or out loud.

And I feel like I either feel her presence or I feel like I hear a response. I I text her like once a year now. Cause I I have this fear where I'm like, if anyone responds and they're like, This is a different person, I would be so devastated. So I'm trying to not be too annoying in case someone else has the number. somebody has a collection of your time. They're just like, let her. Yeah.

Yeah, but like I like to send her her messages and actually one sign I got from her with that was a couple years ago on July nineteenth on her birthday I sent her a text asking for a sign and you know how on at least on iPhones like there's the circle with the photo and if you don't have a photo, it's just their initials. So this whole time I've had her number since I met her.

It's just been her initials. I've never had a contact photo for her. And then on July 19th, there was suddenly a contact photo. And it was my favorite photo of us that I have on my shrine right here, actually, of the two of us at Interlochen. And then of course your doubt brain comes in, you're like, did I put that in? And I forgot that I put that in. So I click on her contacts page or profile, and it said, Photo updated by Lauren.

Stop it. Yeah. Are you kidding me? I'm serious. my goodness. my goodness. I love when those things happen. I'm a total believer in signs. I'm a total b you know, the in the first few years after my brother's loss, my question was, where did you go? Yeah. And where are you now? And how can I reach you? Right. And that has led, I would argue, humanity to every which way from religion to philosophy to metaphysics to all the things.

in search for these answers. And one thing that helped me was hearing about after death communications, ADCs and NDEs, which are near death experiences and spiritually transformative experiences and all these things that tend to happen afterwards when we're cracked open emotionally, spiritually, mentally, all the things and maybe are a little bit more sensitive to feeling these connections. So what a powerful sign and one thing that I heard a lot is

accounts of people getting communication through technology. Yeah. Through things switching, through you know, text messages, through all the things. If you haven't been through that experience, it might sound a little bit out there, like, how is that going happen? But once you hear story after story after story after story of this happening, it becomes something that it's hard to ignore. So what a powerful communication. So when you saw that, what

What did you feel? What happened? I know that you said your mind tried to justify it one way or another, but you know, how does that now, two years later, stand out as like, no, that was a sign from her? Yeah. I mean, as soon as I saw photo updated by Lauren, I was like, it's her. Like she's making sure I can't doubt this. And yeah, it's so hard to explain the feeling, but it's like the pain in that moment or that hour or however long.

The pain is completely lifted and it's just the love. And it really feels like she's right here, like she is right next to me. And like, yeah, like hugging me. And yeah, I I'd love to hear how you feel when you see signs, but it's like you just feel so connected and so supported. Yeah. Yeah. And I just send you a big old hug. I know that's those moments. My my answer to that is.

Initially I tried to explain it or find science or a study or anything. And then, and I did find some things. It's not that there's no studies. This is a studied phenomenon. But I think I ultimately went full circle, realizing that if it feels like a point of connection, if it feels like some, I'm getting chills right now you're saying this, but like if it makes you pause, if it makes you feel like a warm hug, why not just leave it at that?

Right. Like why not just receive that, receive it as it is and let our mind that tries to explain every little thing away just get out of the way for a second. Because what I found is that it's not just one thing that happens, it's like the timing. It was July nineteenth. That is a meaningful date. It's i it's it's like the time, the context, sometimes even the sequence, and all of it put together, it's almost like a language.

that only Hannah would recognize, that only Nina would recognize from this person. And you just know it was their their them, excuse me. It was their energetic imprint, if you will. And we could get so skeptical about things. If you're listening and that's where you're at, that's fine. You know, like you don't have to but my invitation or maybe our invitation is to crack the door open just to see how that feels. Just see how it feels without judgment.

So I I'm a believer. I've received signs and they are some of the most beautiful moments and moments of peace and healing that I've received. And the reason that I feel like, you know what? It's okay. He's okay. Yeah. And I think at the end of the day, we will find out what all this life thing is about when we get there and what with this life after life thing is about when we get there. Thank you for sharing that. That was beautiful. Yeah. And thank you for sharing.

Your experience with it, like, yeah, I think that what you just said is so true. I think that has given me a lot of peace is that I know wherever she is, she's okay. Yeah. That that's like huge for me. Cause yeah, that's like one of the first things I wanted to know, which is are you okay? Like, are you at peace? Yeah. And and I remember watching the documentary, I'm not going to give anything away, but seeing how everything played out.

You just understand that there's something here bigger at play and I don't want to give too much away. I'll leave it at that. Watch the documentary. But yes. Yeah. I I think that she has been pulling strings from the other side to help the other victims. Like I truly, truly believe that. And I think getting this documentary out there is is one of those things because the more people who know about this, not just about him in particular, but that there are people out there like this, like we need to know to protect ourselves. Yeah.

It was very eye opening, definitely. Hannah, we're getting to the end here and I want to just first of all thank you for your openness and for sharing Lauren with us and for sharing your bond and f for the space you've created. It is really, really an important space and a powerful resource for so many grievers, who will find themselves without a home, if you will. So I have, you know, with everything that you just mentioned, it sounds like you're just getting started.

couple of questions. one, what do you wish somebody listening to your podcast would get out of it? And two, the floor is yours to add anything that maybe we didn't touch on that you want included in this conversation. Yeah. What do I want people to get out of it? Just a sense of belonging, a sense of community, to know they're not alone, to know their grief is valid. That I think is is is some of the biggest things I I want people to feel.

I really, really want people to to know that their grief is valid. And so I'll I'll even just say that again. Yeah, your grief is valid. You're not alone. Yeah. And honestly it can be thank you for that because as simple as that is, like it's so true. And I find myself, I don't know if this happens to you, but even talking about grief and having a podcast and being in the communities and all these things, I find myself invalidating my own grief sometimes. Yeah. Like, it's been seven years and this and that. So even

For ourselves, even for somebody holding space, I think it's a good reminder. And especially if you're at the beginning where things are so confusing, like yes, what you're feeling is so real and so valid. Thank you so much. Final question is what would Hannah today say to the version of Hannah who found out about her best friend's passing?

Yeah.

Yeah, that's so that's such a powerful question. It's it's hard because like what I want to say is things will get better, like you'll find people, you'll find hope. But then I also know in that beginning stages that's the last thing you want to hear, and you want to smack someone across the face if they tell you that. So then in that case, I think I would just give her a hug. I think there would be nothing to s to really say. Yeah. Absolutely.

And it's been an absolute honor. Thank you so much for all that you do, and thank you for being you. Thank you so much for having me. This was really special. That's it for today's episode. Be sure to subscribe to the Grief and Light podcast. I'd also love to connect with you and hear your thoughts and your stories. Feel free to share them with me via my Instagram page at grief and light, or you can also visit griefandlight.com for more information and updates. Thank you so much for being here.

For being you and always remember you are not alone.