Meet the Experts. In Italics.

Sam, Chuck, Lauren, and Brad are all Formers who want to tell you everything they wish they knew when they were leaving the movement. 

It can be really scary and uncomfortable to realize you're the bad guy- but you're not alone. 

In this first episode, the four touch on their first public appearances, why they did it, what sucks about being public, what rules about being public, and the things they've learned from Day One to now. 


If you're thinking about leaving, or know someone who is struggling in the far-right, feel free to share this podcast or even get in touch with us. We're always around.
www.thedailyformer.com

www.thedailyformer.com

Transcript

Samantha 0:35

So this conversation that I want to have, is about why we speak out I think that would be a good first conversation to have cuz it just sets the tone of like why we're doing this and why we think it's important. So wanna do is just do a quick introduction. Your name, how long you were in the movement, and then how long you were out before your first public media thing came out. I'll start my name is Sam. I was in the far right for one year. And I was out for two years when I started speaking out publicly.

Lauren 1:11

I'm Lauren. I was in the movement for a total of eight years. I was out for about three or four years, before my first ever public engagement.

Chuck 1:18

My name's Chuck. I was involved with the movement for roughly 15 years. A little bit more than that really. And I was out for a little over 10 before I did any public speaking.

Brad 1:34

I'm Brad. I was, in the movement for about 13 years, and it was about, six years until I started telling my story.

Samantha 1:43

When you guys did start speaking out, what were the circumstances of it and like, did you feel like you were ready? Like, I, I had this guy, he was writing a book about the far right and there was a chapter for me in it. And, uh, his publisher promised basically like a postmortem with one of the characters in his book. So I did it kind of as a favor to him. And I thought I was ready to speak out. Like I knew I wanted to eventually, but I was not ready at the time and I didn't realize how not ready I was. I have to this day, I have no media training, nothing like that. But I didn't realize, I didn't know I could set boundaries. I didn't know I could say no to things. Like there was just such a, an amount of, of self-preservation and self-respect and dignity that you don't realize you can have if you don't exercise that or like understand that. But what about you guys? How did it go for y'all?

Lauren 2:38

For me my first ever public speaking event was out in, uh, Alberta. Actually, Brad was there too. He probably remembers it. So yeah, I would say that one went over very well. The audience was receptive of it. I would say I was ready, but of course, like general nervousness before I go up, it's like, oh, what if I say something wrong? Or the constant thing in my head of don't swear, but of course I always do. Yeah, so I, I quite enjoyed that one. Now my first ever media engagement, I can't remember every waking detail of it. However, like it was a film project, which actually luckily never made it on air. They just didn't air it for whatever reason. So that one I was not prepared for. It's actually because they got into like really, really specific questions other than focusing on like, my story as a whole. So I remember being asked, well, you're, you're part English? Like what were you ever doing in a movement that supported Hitler? And I'm like, I think the way I answered it was, Hey, listen, this can happen to anybody, including folks of non-white heritage. And I don't think they liked that answer too much, as true as it is. And then they got into like, really like gender specific stuff. So they had asked me, how could you have ever been in a movement that's so misogynistic? And I'm like, I have news for you. Women can be pieces of shit too. they also didn't like that one. So I don't know, maybe they just didn't want truth. Who knows?

Samantha 4:06

Media definitely has like a narrative of who falls into it and like how it happens, how people get out. The average intelligence of someone who falls into the movement and like socioeconomic status. And I've found that like, exactly like you said, Lauren, like people will try and like corner you into this sort of like, well, how could you have done X, Y, or Z? Or how did you not know that was happening? It's just crazy. I'm like, no one came to me with like a bonnet with swastikas on it and said, this is what you believe now. Like it's so much more insidious than that.

Chuck 4:37

To kind of, to kind of put things back on, on what we were talking about. So. I was out for a long time and, and when I first got out, you know, there were no, there were no de-rad groups there, you know, none of this stuff really existed. You know, there were a, a couple of people who had been out for a while and had been talking, but there was nowhere you could go for, peer mentoring or help, or, a social worker or anything like that. Like, like we're starting to see now. And so I, you know, that was a good 10 year period of time. And I read Frankie Mink's book and reached out to him on Facebook. And this was all right about the time, life after Hate was getting started, and like, the inspiration of Frank and Arno and a few other people who had been out and were doing this stuff. Angela kinda led me to want to start speaking out myself. And even though I had been out for years and thought that I was ready to tell my story and wanted to tell my story as sort of a redemptive kind of thing, after a few years of repeatedly talking about the same thing over and over again to multiple media outlets and, classroom environments and things like that, it, it really became a heavy burden. You know, you've relived the trauma when you're doing that. And I didn't understand, like, there was nobody to tell me really, like, okay, this is gonna dredge up bad feelings for you when you keep talking about this stuff over and over and over again. It's not easy, it's not easy to talk about and people need to understand and be ready for how they're gonna feel when they're going through that.

Samantha 6:25

When you did start speaking out that for everybody here what kind of like inner work did you do? Or like, did, like you were talking about how there weren't really resources like Life After Hate or any organizations like that. There was no former extremist specific mental health avenue for you guys to take. And like when you spoke about it, like you're talking about right now, it ended up taking a huge toll on you. Did any of that, of that inner work end up helping at all? Or did you find yourself back in the same place of like, what am I doing? Like, can I do this?

Chuck 6:57

You know, it, I, I got to a point where I was like super burned out and I actually, you know, and a lot of this was through Life After Hate, but life After Hate has done some evolution since that time too. It's a pretty different organization now than it was then. You know, there weren't really any professionals involved and, and, you know, uh, myself as much as anybody else is guilty of like, trying to be something that we weren't, you know, like we, we weren't mental health professionals though. We were trying to kind of fill that role in a lot of cases. But, uh, you know, and I didn't, you know, like I, I went through all this stuff and, and got burnt out and had to stop and like, you know, take a break from doing anything. I just, you know, I just said, I, you know what? I'm, I'm done for a while. And that lasted a couple years. And, and since then you know, it's given me a lot of perspective and I have a lot easier time setting boundaries and, and knowing when I need to, to, you know, take a step back and, and like not be talking about it anymore. And I don't feel obligated to. Lay my life out there for everybody to observe anymore. When I speak about this stuff now, it's in situations and, for reasons that I'm okay with, it's not, I'm not doing it because I feel like I have to because of who I was, you know.

Samantha 8:19

Yeah, absolutely. That's actually a great question. What was everybody's motivation for speaking out? Like, were you guys trying to get ahead of it, of something or were you, did you feel like you owed it to people? Like, did you just wanna share the story and set the record straight? Like what was the motivating factor?

Lauren 8:38

I think for me, like when I had left the network that I was a part of, obviously there were a couple people who I missed and like I had also hoped that they would take the same path someday. And actually one of them did, so for me actually it was about being able to reach the people that were in the void or like very early on in their exit, who just felt lost like I did. Cuz frankly, I wouldn't wish that one on anybody. Like there's no way to get rid of those feelings, I think. But there is a way for someone else to help you make them a little bit easier to sit with. So the guy that had reached out to me, he was also part of my old network and he had told me that he had left within a matter of months, actually, I think after I did. apparently he had like followed everything that I was doing publicly and stuff, and he had said that that actually kept him out so I mean, just that message alone, like that's enough for me.

Samantha 9:28

I think that's fucking awesome, Lauren. Like, I mean, at this point I feel like that's why I don't wanna speak for everybody, but that's definitely why I speak out is like, or continue to, I hate media. But like I do it cuz it's like even just knowing that one person sees that they can and they decide to do it like that is 100% worth it.

Brad 9:49

At the, at the onset, like I met Tony in 2015, so, he was kind of like telling me about what happens when you talk in public and I found it really helpful to speak with him, in that sense. I'd also talked to this other individual, and he kind of like, not kind of, uh, I'll be, I'll be a hundred percent honest. He, he passed me off as whatever. Uh, and I felt, I felt like Tony had also let me in about just saying that, you know, tell your story, be you. Go tell if you want to tell your story. Don't try to tell every story that, uh, Exists out there. Try to be as honest as possible because there's a lot of folks around that are doing whatever they're doing out there. I found Tony very helpful as just sort of a mentor, uh, in that sense. Uh, and also being able to connect with your story. I remember Tony telling me a lot about that, like being, being able to you know, find the spots in, in your story that you really connect with and, and how to, how to tell that. It's those moments, you know, those, those questions we get from media, we get from academics where they're like, so what was that light bulb moment for you that you realized you wanted to not be in the movement? Right. So it's that, but it's not that. It's thinking about the moment that you, you know, got beat up or you, you harm somebody or you harm society or you like, uh, you know, I, I often reference it to when I got early on, when I almost got killed by a Vietnamese gang when I was in the movement. Like what that means to me now meant, meant something a lot different to me. When I was in the movement, it was like a martyr crisis that I had going on in my head when I was in like, oh, I survived that, but now I look back on it. The person who saved my life was an Orthodox Jewish doctor. So I look at it a much different like way than, than violence. Like promoting the violence is something that is something to romanticize about. Uh, no, it's more like how I connect with the person who saved my life and that I'm still here to tell this, to be able to talk about this story and talk about communities that give even to the worst folks when I was a really awful person at that time in my life. So, you know, how do you, how do you connect with those parts of your life of, of your story, of your experiences with the movement? We hear a lot of folks talk about the movement. I, I, I see these videos of these guys talking that are formers and they're like, yeah, and I was this, and I was that. And I, they're still in the movement. They're talking about themselves presently. That's how it feels to me. You know? It's not, it's not connecting with like all of this things that you did that are

Samantha 12:45

Yeah.

Brad 12:47

represented a really horrible time in your life, both for you and society though, right?

Samantha 12:52

yeah, it, they, uh, actually, I grew up, in and out of AA like my entire life, and they say, there's a difference between like being in recovery and being a dry drunk. And like dry drunk is like, I just don't drink. Like, that's it. You don't do anything else to be better or to do whatever. But you'll go to like an AA meeting. and they'll call them like war stories or like glory days. Or like, you'll go in and you'll be like, man, I used to drink this much and blah, blah, blah. And it's like whole story bro. But like also what did you learn from that? It sounds like you're still proud of that. Like, you know, it's something, I think it's something, I wonder if you guys deal with it too that like, especially when I first got out, not that I was ever proud of it, but I felt like I had to qualify myself, right? Like I wasn't in for 10 years, five years or anything like that. But like I, I did work while I was in there, you know? But I feel like I have to qualify myself to say that I'm worthy of this redemption or of this journey. Do you guys ever deal with that? Like I will also remind everyone that it didn't matter what you did, like you were still still king turd of shit mountain. It doesn't matter who you were, like you were promoting awful stuff and the higher up you were, that's less to be proud of. But did you guys ever do that or try and like adjust your story to kind of like, not make it something it wasn't, but just kind of like present in a certain way that might not necessarily be accurate to you now

Lauren 14:16

for me? No, I never bothered doing that. Only because, number one, I am a really terrible actress. I cannot put on an act to save my life. People would see right through it if I tried to be something I wasn't. So we're just not going there. And number two, I don't find it constructive at all. Like how does that help anybody at the end of the day?

Brad 14:35

You want to measure something, measure your success, leaving and, and the successes you have outside of the movement. Not like how shitty we were. I was more garbage than you were who? Like really great.

Lauren 14:51

and it's like, you know, you can have like cooler or funnier stories outside of the movement. Like I know that I do.

Samantha 14:58

I think Chuck and I were talking like the first time we had met on a Zoom meeting, and we both agreed that like your worst day outside of the movement is infinitely better than your best day in the movement. Like there's just no, once you're on the other side of it, you're just kind of like, it really didn't matter what happened in there. Like it all sucked, like at like, just, it doesn't matter. Also like when I'm 20, 30, 40, 60 years out of the movement, I don't wanna be talking about how I got into it. I wanna talk about that 20, 30 years of my life after getting out and like how to stay out. I had to maintain spiritual and like mental health and like, I don't wanna re that's not glory days. Those are not the good old days to me.

Chuck 15:41

I've been in those situations where it's a bunch of formers and, and I, I feel like now, when Life After Hate started in 2011 ish, and, so for the first five or six years or whatever, a bunch of us would get together for whatever, and you would get those, the war stories and stuff and like people evolved out of it and some people didn't. And I, I think that at a certain point you have to quit resting on those laurels and mature and grow as a person and become something different, and have a different like story to tell. And that being the story of like how you're succeeding now in this life that is not genocidal, hateful, and at the bottom of it, really stupid.

Samantha 16:33

Yeah. No, absolutely. Do you feel like for as long as you think you can offer help, you want to do it and you're willing to do it?

Lauren 16:43

For me, as long as it's good for me and everybody else.

Chuck 16:46

Uh, it's, it's a little of all of that for me. Like when I first started, it was really my primary motivation was like feeling like I needed to atone and, in some way like penance for my sins or whatever. But now, 10 years on or whatever it is that I've been doing this stuff, like officially as part of a what an organization that does de-radicalization or whatever you want to call it the, there's the aspect of, yeah, I'd rather be telling a story that has a little more maturity to it than some of the other people that I hear out there talking. And, and I mean, I'm not that I'm think I'm like the most mature person in the world, but I, I think that, you know, I, I. I talk about things that aren't just, you know, I was such a badass guy back then. It, I, I tried to talk more about like how to, enter back into society and, and like be okay with things that you used to believe were a Jewish conspiracy and, and like, you know, have a job and a career and, and live your life and, uh, you know, raise kids that you aren't doing, you know, significantly more damage to than you absolutely need to. You know? So that's part of it, you know, like getting, getting the story out there that isn't just, the, Hey, look at me story. Cuz there's a lot of that out there. And you know, still a little bit of the atonement thing, but more than anything else, I think, like you were talking about earlier, Sam and, and Lauren, Brad, all three of you that, you know, the main thing that inspires me now to talk about this stuff is the hope that somebody who is in the same position I was might hear this and make a different choice than I did and not suffer the same, you know, mis.

Samantha 18:46

When I was talking about the stories of like how radicalization happened and like yours and Brad's story are different from like Lauren's, which is different from mine, which is different from you know, the newest iteration or whatever. I also failed to remember or piece together that there are people from y'all's iteration from the eighties and nineties that are even now still trying to get out and like. There are people from all over, from every age group that is trying to leave. And like, I think having different voices that say, you could have been in this for 30 years, you can still leave. You were gonna have like very specific challenges, but like you can still do it. And I think that's also, I just don't wanna discount that either. Like, I don't wanna make it sound as if like computers are the only way to radicalize. Like that's not the case. I just wanted to just like not feel like I was being Aris and shitty about that whole thing.

Chuck 19:40

I didn't feel that at all. I mean, like if you're critical of somebody who only who only looks at, you know, one aspect of how it happens and thinks that the way it happened to them is, is the way it happens to everybody, it would be kind of hypocritical then to then, you know,

Samantha 19:55

Well, I think, I

Chuck 19:56

and I don't think you are that so

Samantha 19:59

I appreciate that. I, I think also the issue I have with people like that are when you're coming out from an older iteration and then you start exploiting people from new iterations with the idea of I've been out for so long, you need to follow me and do what I say. Or your rehabilitation doesn't count. When I had first When I'd first reach out to try and get help for some people there were some people that I was looking up to as like inspiration as guidance that would kind of just keep saying like, formers these days haven't done enough and blah, blah, blah. And it just always felt like I was never going to get there, you know? Like I was never going to be able to forgive myself or understand the nuance in reality of like why I joined, how I joined, things like that. And I feel that also needs to change. Like, like speaking out publicly does not have to be the only recourse and the only option you have to like, like making atonement or making penance. I think there are ways that people can do it otherwise.

Lauren 20:56

So like some of those things. So essentially like what I've heard is that some formers are not good enough. Can't that shove somebody back into the culture that we don't want them in? Like, I've heard of that happening.

Samantha 21:09

Yeah. And don't get me wrong, like especially as formers, I don't know if you guys have opinions about this. It's pretty easy to tell when someone's sincere about trying to change or not. Like when they mean it and they're willing to kind of take that challenge. There are people that have publicly platformed themselves or have gotten platforms that are absolutely not deserved and they're taking advantage of the public's ignorance on the situation. But I agree with you that like if someone comes to you and wants help and you're just kind of like, that's not enough. You need to have this like, specific challenge of like pushing the boulder up the hill every day for the rest of your life. Like, why did they bother leaving if they don't feel like there's ever going to be something for them? You know? Like movement will. Yeah.

Lauren 21:54

maybe our only expectation really needs to be sincerity, and that's.

Brad 21:59

I think sincerity and honesty and all these different things that we're talking about are, are super important. I think that we learn this over time about sincerity and, and that and, and honesty in this space. How do we. I mean, there's always gonna be parts of our story we're not gonna like, want to talk about, but that's our trauma or whatever that we want to like, own our own trauma and have some things, and maybe that's why we have a therapist or whatever to talk to them about those parts. But like the things that help publicly or the things that help society understand what those movements are, I mean, and help other people get out. Those honest equations of like, Hey, you know, just people can wind up in these groups. Like that's factual. Like, but we can also get out and we can also stay out. So people want to know about that stuff. Like society wants to know about that and that's cool. We can, we can give a lot of insights, whether it be the online world, the offline in-person movement. I think we have to be very clear that this is also something that can happen to anyone. And it's the far-right extremist movement today is a, is really in anybody's movement. It's, uh, not gender specific. It's not even race specific anymore. Like it's, there's so many things that are,

Chuck 23:18

It hasn't been race specific for a long time. Actually,

Brad 23:22

yeah, man. I, I can remember countless occasions where I ran into folks that were not white people. I mean, I, the one that stands out the most is, I met a guy in downtown Vancouver who is indigenous, and he had a big swastika tattoo, and he was a, he told me he was a white power skinhead. And I'm like,

Chuck 23:40

Yeah, I, I've seen that in multiple it, Southern California, believe me, there's a lot of that you

Brad 23:48

Well, yeah.

Chuck 23:49

uh,

Brad 23:50

even remember bleep bleep, like move, remove the names, but like, he was not a white person.

Chuck 23:57

the most, the, the most virulent neo-Nazi skinhead I ever met who was, you know, one of the guys who initially like brought me into the actual ideology as opposed to just being a racist punk, basically was a quarter Jamaican So like,

Brad 24:18

yeah.

Samantha 24:20

Yeah. That's like, it's so wild. And like, it's also such a weird thing that it's like, I mean, it makes sense, right? Like white people in the white power movement speaking out about it. But I wonder if the general public does know how many people, how it's literally everyone that is susceptible to this. Like anyone, it's not just white people specific or middle class or lower middle class white people. Like I think we all come from very different backgrounds and like we all ended up in the same house. Like, it's just such a crazy, like, I don't know. But as, as we're talking about this, I do wonder what has been the least rewarding thing about speaking out

Lauren 24:58

maybe this is just the introvert in me talking, but like I always end up super drained afterwards just because like going up there and speaking, it does take quite a lot out of you.

Chuck 25:07

So least rewarding is yeah, like, like what Lauren talks about is the, I think it's, you know, it's it's like picking at a scab, you know, it, it dredges up the, all of those old bad feelings and emotions and stuff. And so it's, it's a burden to talk about it, particularly if you're doing it a lot repeatedly in a, you know, relatively short amount of time. It becomes very like emotionally draining, but also physically exhausting in a way. And then most rewarding. I went in for a job interview a couple years ago and actually got the job and the owner of the company came in while I was sitting in the interview and he asked me something, and I don't even remember what it was, but he goes, yeah, well, I, I googled your name and I saw all the stuff that you're involved with, and I just want to tell you that I think it's really a great thing that you're doing all this. And I really appreciate that you have been able to make the change that you've made. And this was a total stranger. I had never talked to this guy before. I mean, it was a job interview, so he had reason to look my name up and everything, but that was, that touched me so deeply. It just, you know, to hear some random member of the public kind of like, give support, lend support for, you know, doing what we do.

Lauren 26:29

Yeah. And you know, like Chuck was saying, people appreciate what we do. I have had comments like that before from people and actually I remember the one time my old boss from one. I used to work in construction. He had reached out to me after I stopped working there. I guess he heard my voice over a podcast. I forget which podcast it was, and he said, I think that was you over the podcast. It must have been you. And I'm like, yes, yes. It was Go on. So he says, yeah, I just wanna tell you that I appreciate all the work you're doing now when, and he even said that when he was younger, he almost got sucked into all this himself. So the thing is, I didn't necessarily expect to hear that from my old boss, but there again, we're not talking about the most polished guy on the planet. So, hey, it can happen

Samantha 27:16

That's pretty cool. What about you, Brad?

Brad 27:20

So, I mean, I think there's been so many times where it's been like, I think there's a recent one where I did a, you know, a media interview and, and they were like, oh yeah, so this'll go on air like tomorrow. Or whatever. And I spent an hour and a half talking with these really nice people and uh, told them lots of stuff, traumatic stuff. And then they're like, they just posted a picture of me on the news story. It was just like a picture. And then that was it, not me talking, you know? So I wasted all that time talking to them just to have a, and not a new picture of me, A picture of me from when I was like 20 in the movement, you know, doing the Sea, Kyle, you know, or whatever. So, uh, great representation of who I am now. Uh,

Samantha 28:16

stuff. Yeah.

Brad 28:17

yeah. Yeah, those premium stuff. And one of my f I guess one of my favorite things that I, I did was the, was a documentary cuz I worked with these independent journalists and they were like just really interested in like, changing the world's view of right-wing extremism and people that are involved in it. They didn't just focus on my own story. They like went down to Portland during all that stuff. Just after Charlottesville. Like, they went around and like really interrogated what was happening with

Samantha 28:50

cool.

Brad 28:51

right-wing extremism and, and I thought they minus some of the, I, I just can't stand seeing. Like my dumb face on the, on the on the tv. So, minus that feeling I am, I'm okay with, uh, with what that represented and, and how it you know, how it came out. Minus the thing that I did tell them they were gonna get flagged for calling it skinhead. Uh, so a bunch of like anti-racist skinheads came out and they were like, that's not what skinheads are. And I'm like, ah, good point. Uh, I did tell the C V C that, that they're gonna get hosed for calling it something that, but it was just another example of the white

Chuck 29:31

I'm, I'm gonna,

Brad 29:32

to own something. What? That wasn't theirs. Yeah.

Chuck 29:35

yeah, I'm gonna jump in there with Brad and add to my, my least favorite parts of media appearances. The, the three hours of interviewing for them to use two sentences It's like, and, and usually it's like the stupidest two sentences you utter through the whole thing. You know,

Samantha 29:56

Yeah. Oh yeah. I, we've talked about this. My, my interview for the Netflix thing was like 11 hours, and I think I was on screen for less than six minutes, and I just look like a fucking giggling idiot the whole time where it's like, oh, the internet is crazy. And it's like, I relived trauma. I just I mean, I was eating cigarettes this entire interview. I just, like, I couldn't yeah, that is, I find that to be the worst part where people are like, yeah, this would be like a 30 minute interview, and it ends up being like four to five hours, but it's for like a six minute segment, and it's just like, w like stop treating us like umbrellas, you know? Like we're not just here when you need information and we don't exist when you're done with us. Like, we didn't come out of this, but.

Chuck 30:39

now we need to get some B-roll. Can you do something you like to do as a hobby?

Samantha 30:44

Can you open a refrige? Yeah. Can you open a refrigerator and like, make a sandwich a couple times? Like a normal person.

Lauren 30:50

You know what, actually I've, I've liked some of the B roll stuff because like they've had me playing bass, they've had me painting before. Sometimes it can be fun.

Chuck 30:58

I dragged my blood python outta the cage for the camera. not that long ago. Like take'em into the garage and show'em the motorcycles. I do the stupidest stuff I can think of.

Samantha 31:08

yo, I need to start doing that. Mine's always, mine is always like, can you just look at your laptop with concern? And I'm like, yeah, I do that every day. Like, sure, that's my normal hobby I should start, I should start coming up with wild things to do. Something that I think about a lot, is that after a certain point in time, we, we do, we've moved. What we did and who we are in a way that we want to talk now about how there how to prevent or how to help people leave. But the whole reason or the whole like story that we told when we first hit the public was how we got in and our time in the movement and all of that stuff. Do you think it's fair for us to expect the evolution of wanting to talk about being out now when we elected to put ourselves in the spotlight based on the story of the fact that we went in, like what made us public figures is the fact that we're formers and is it fair of us to want to be more, to be something different And like I personally do think that there comes a time where like if you've been out for long enough, you've been speaking about this publicly or doing the work or whatever, whatever. We do have knowledge and insight into now leaving and staying out and growing as a person and like evolving or transcending, I call it past being a former, but is that how media works and is that fair of us to wanna accept that?

Lauren 33:00

Well, for me, I don't mind talking about it as long as it's like the full story, not just focused on. How I got in because I've had somebody try to do that before where they just wanted to focus on my end story and I'm like, you're gonna make it sound like I'm still there and I know you are. We're not doing this

Samantha 33:15

Yeah. Do you ever, do you guys ever, God, I have so many questions now. Do you guys ever come across that too, where people still, I was just listening to that that podcast where the host is interviewing this guy, and he's like, I'm really skeptic of formers. Like, you know, they'll, they'll sugarcoat their story and make it seem like blah, blah, blah. And I just wanna be like, who are you talking to? Because most former are just pretty matter of fact about like, I was a dick and this happened. Do you guys, how do you feel about the weird hypocrisy of people wanting to talk to us about what to look for, but then also criticizing us for like, not knowing what we were getting into at the time. Like people would be like, how did you not know? Or like, how could you be so dumb, but also can you tell us what to look for? And it's like, well, if I was that dumb,

Lauren 33:58

Well, maybe a better, maybe some advice for them. A better question would be what have you learned since then? Like what have you learned from your own story? So Yeah, and I mean, does somebody really, uh, think that we go on camera or like in interviews with anybody and say, oh, it was all rainbows and unicorns and pretty things. It just doesn't happen like that. So I don't know what this guy's on about.

Samantha 34:22

Yeah. And I also wonder, like, I think it's wild. There is no benefit for us doing this. You know, other than like the internal of like, I feel like I've done a good thing, you know, that I did not do a good thing for a long time and now I'm able to kind of help or offer insider or perspective. But like, we don't get paid for this. None of us, you know, unless any of you guys have discovered the secret, but like, none of us are millionaires. None of us are like independently wealthy because of this. Like, I still bartend like I'm not, you know, none of us have, have done that.

Lauren 35:01

and my mom and I do get paid for the fact that we have a book, but like we get paid twice a year and it's like enough to keep the lights on or keep the electricity bell going for like an hour.

Chuck 35:12

Yeah.

Samantha 35:12

that's what I mean. It's like you guys, but you wrote a,

Chuck 35:14

in this

Samantha 35:15

yeah, you wrote a book. You weren't, like, there are some people again that speak out, that do this like, I was such a bad person. Please give me money because I was an asshole and yeah, because I was a jerk and now I'm not. Like that's, that's not good enough for me personally. I, I don't feel comfortable asking for or promoting people that do that. I think that's, I think that's unethical,

Lauren 35:40

Well, even my mom had told me once, like when we were in the middle of writing our memoir, she had said, yeah, if you were not doing any of this work with Life After Hate, there's no way in hell we would write this thing.

Samantha 35:52

really.

Lauren 35:53

Yeah. Because I mean, all it would be is a story of, oh, I was such a dickhead when I was younger. And then people would be like, fantastic. So what are you like and what are you doing now?

Samantha 36:03

Yeah, I mean, getting back, do we, in terms of all this, do we think that it's fair for us to want to be able to transcend publicly? Do we think that that's a reasonable expectation where after time we can start talking about other things than just our story and like, what are the warning signs of these things?

Chuck 36:22

I, God, I hope so. We should have that ability to do that. I think that there's going to be, plenty of people to take up the mantle of, I've been out for a little while and I am trying to show you that I'm reformed and here's what I did and here's why I don't want to do it anymore. And then there are those of us that have been out for a while and talking about this stuff and, and have other perspectives to offer. And so, you know, I mean, I haven't really run across in, in any of the stuff I've done, anybody who questioned my, the veracity of me being out, that that hasn't, I haven't come across that personally. But they do, the media does frequently expect the, you know, the hyperbole as opposed to the philosophy.

Samantha 37:12

Yeah, that's fair. Brad, I feel like you were about to talk and then

Brad 37:17

No, I was just gonna say that, uh, it's something interesting I was thinking about, actually, it was something you brought up with me about like being an expert or whatever. So do, do we know more about our, about this world that we live in about violent extremism, terrorism, all this stuff. So yeah, some of us know more than just our. But there's the, the root formers who just are experts on their own story. I won't say his name, but you know who I'm talking about. I remember an academic saying to me at a, at a conference once, back in 2016 or 2017 it took me 10 years to get my PhD and I'm not an expert on this subject. And it really pissed them off when somebody had been talking recently at that same conference saying that they were the expert on a certain subject matter.

Chuck 38:09

The expert in italics

Brad 38:12

the one, and I'm going, well, shit, uh, no, I'm not an ex expert. I know stuff about Yeah. Buy my book, buy my magazine. It's my pictures on the front.

Chuck 38:25

by my, by my coffee cup mugs and, and my onesie, my kids onesies.

Brad 38:32

But that's, but that's the

Samantha 38:34

But that's the thing. Yeah. And, and media allows it.

Brad 38:38

Oh, they love it.

Chuck 38:39

They, they lap it up, actually. They don't just allow it. They, you know,

Brad 38:43

Oh, they're in it. They live in it. Yeah. It's horrible. But like, what can we do? So what, what do I do about those things? When people ask me about it, they're like, oh, so yeah, you're like an expert on this. I'm like, I'd appreciate if you like, just really didn't say that cuz I don't want to be that. I don't want be that, uh, because then I, then we have to like form what we're saying as the knowledgeable, no thanks. I mean, I know stuff for sure. Yeah. Like ask me, ask away the questions. Let's have a conversation. Right. But like, I don't know.

Chuck 39:21

I'm an expert on what an asshole I was, but that has nothing to do with like, being an expert on, on right wing extremism or knowing everything about, I don't, I know very little about, you know, like the overall picture of, you know, why people do this. I don't, I mean, if I knew all the answers to that, I would provide them and, and it would all be over. Right. I, I, I know, I know some stuff about electrical construction. I'm pretty good at that, but as far as being like a, an extremism expert, that's, that's laughable. You know, I, I've had zero training. I don't, I don't, other than actually being in it, I mean, I have some, some life history stories I can tell. I have the insight into, you know, what happened to me personally, but that doesn't make me an expert on any other human being on the planet, you know? I mean, that makes me an expert on what I went through. And I don't even know if I'm an expert on that cause I'm kind of an idiot.

Brad 40:16

though, cuz this exists across fields, and I think one of the fields that has this type of narcissism, narcissism the most is policing and law enforcement in general. Because I was standing at a, at a conference recently giving a presentation and this cop, uh, says to me, I was talking about mental health and formers. And I'm like, there, there is. Well, because I work in the space, I literally work with people who are, identify themselves as formers that say they have mental health issues. And this cop goes, that's not what we're seeing. You're wrong. And I was like, okay, but anyway, who cares?

Chuck 40:57

Great.

Brad 40:58

You know, everything.

Chuck 40:59

fool you

Brad 41:01

Yeah. Like, hello,

Chuck 41:02

for, for the listening audience. Brad's wearing a Toronto Maple Leafs cap and I will never forgive him.

Brad 41:07

Yeah,

Chuck 41:08

Go Kings.

Samantha 41:10

Yeah, I wish I had the hubris of like, I am the answer, the authority, like that always blows my mind. I wonder though, for, for us, like, do we not have that? Because in the movement you feel like you are the authority and you have all the answers, and then when you leave, you realize you are so far from the truth that you're like, I never wanna be accused of knowing anything ever again. like.

Chuck 41:36

That's definitely part of it. I mean, I, something I used to say and still do to a degree, but less so now is I don't trust my own judgment, you know, cuz my judgment got me into that shit, right? I need outside input into like, you know, anything really. And that isn't so much the case anymore. It's, that's changed over time. I, I'm a little more trusting in myself and, and the choices I make and, and how I feel about things now. But for a long time there, I, you know, I, I always questioned myself because, you know, like my, like my brother told me one time and he was always against this stuff, but he, he told me one time that my, my superiority complex. Was going to, you know, destroy my life or something to that, that effect and that, you know, that really hit me. Cuz I had been out for a while when he said that, you know, uh, quite a while and like to hear that your superiority complex is gonna, ruin your life. And then, some pretty bad shit happened to me not long after that. And

Samantha 42:51

Did you, was it a surprise to hear it because you thought that you had like done the work to like be better or you just like never acknowledged that you had one?

Chuck 43:02

no, this was, this was like before I really had completely changed my, my heart and my philosophy about people. And before I, I got, you know, connected with Frankie in life after hate and stuff. So this was, you know, well after I exited any kind of active involvement, but before I really had changed my heart. So that really, it was a blow. And for a long time after that, after like him saying that to me and then, you know, the, the stuff that happened in my life happening, and I'm not gonna go into all that, but it was pretty, pretty. Drastic and pretty painful. I, I just really didn't, like, I didn't have any faith in, being able to make smart choices like for myself anyway. So

Samantha 43:47

Yeah.

Lauren 43:47

Chuck, I'm happy you brought that up because this is something that I've been working on with a couple of my clients recently. They always talk about not being able to trust their own judgment, not trusting themself. So that's if we have like no higher priorities of things to focus on, that's actually what we spend a lot of time doing. Like, I've spent a good couple weeks working with people on this.

Samantha 44:06

Yeah, I mean, you guys know, like I've worked a lot on like, I have a good intuition, but I spend so much of my life ignoring it. You know? Like I, you know, when something's a bad idea in your gut, but you're just kind of taught to go with it or, or just do whatever so-and-so is telling you to. But I mean, you guys know I still drop in the slack chat if I'm still trying to figure out if I should or could trust someone or whatever, you know? I think, I think there's a healthy amount of self-doubt that people can have that just keeps your feet on the ground. You know? Like, I don't ever wanna think I'm 100% right in 100% of everything that I do, just cuz that's not human. That's not, I have fucked up so much before that. The idea that I am now impervious to mistakes is just,

Chuck 44:54

think

Samantha 44:55

gro, that's grotesque behavior.

Chuck 44:57

thinking you're a hundred percent right about everything and, and, you know, You're, you're the answer to whatever is kind of the root of fascism, honestly.

Samantha 45:07

Yeah,

Lauren 45:07

yeah, that's a, it is kind of almost like the mentality we used to have where it's like, oh, we're the ones with the answers come to us. It's like, no, actually we're just full of shit.

Chuck 45:16

Yeah. I mean, if, you don't have questions about, you know, you know what you believe and what you think. Any anybody who operates from a place of certainty, man, that's dangerous, you know?

Samantha 45:30

I'm curious to play devil's advocate on this. I mean, to go back to what Brad said, where he doesn't necessarily want to be called the expert on anything, you know, just, just because like Brad, I, I do personally consider you an expert on, on, on some things, and it's, it's really weird that we are all so adamantly against being called that because we once played around with the idea of it. Do you ever think it's something that you'll get over or accept that you could be considered that,

Brad 46:01

I think that's really nice as well. But I think it's okay that if others, like when I, you know, listen to colleagues of mine, like you, you guys, when it, it comes to certain subjects too, I could say it, you know, I think they're an expert on that. You know, it's, uh, you. I work with my, my, my boss at, uh, at the, the research center there. She's 100% an expert on right wing extremism. She has been studying it for 30 years. Like she is a for sure an expert on that. But would she say that she is? No. She'd be like, no, I'm not. I'd be like, okay, but you are though so Yeah.

Samantha 46:43

of those, like, we like you don't get to pick your nicknames, like you also don't get to decide if you're an expert on something.

Chuck 46:48

Yeah, I'm sitting here trying to think of, uh, like there are like, you know, these are, these are cliches and, and like stuff that, and I can't think of any of them right now, but I know they're out there about, you know, like people who are truly experts don't call themselves experts. You know, like, I mean,

Brad 47:04

They're just living it

Lauren 47:06

Yeah, this

Chuck 47:06

really an expert about something, you know that you don't know it all, right? Like,

Lauren 47:11

yeah, this is kind of a gross generalization, but I feel like anybody without traits of narcissism or psychopathy would not be comfortable with titles like that. Yeah, that's very And I think it's fine though, and I think it's we should embrace the fact when if other people look at us and say, Hey, you know, that truck over there, he's really an expert on formers working in CVE work. Right? Like, that's a fair assumption that you could be an expert on that. You've been around it a long time. Right. But like saying that out loud about ourselves is weird and pretty like, Should probably go to a therapy session if we're saying that about ourselves, cuz some, got some issues, right? You feel, I mean,

Brad 47:53

it's so bad. There, there was there's literally a guy that has a website who's a former and he has merch on there. And there was another guy that I knew, he's no longer with us anymore, but he had, like, that's what he was doing. He was like peddling merch.

Chuck 48:13

and it's particularly egregious in, in my mind, if your shtick, when you were in the movement was selling your merch and now your shtick when you're out of the movement is selling merch.

Samantha 48:25

Yeah, I mean, I think the point that I wanna get across to people is like, We've already talked about is like, we're not speaking out to become famous or popular or anything like that. But there are also a lot of drawbacks. Like if someone is listening to this thinking about speaking out, like I just wanted there to be a very open and honest, like it can be rewarding, but there are also a lot of pitfalls

Lauren 48:48

I was talking to one of my clients recently, and we actually realized that going public actually kind of gives you like a nice little safety barrier against your old group because I don't know why this is. But ever since I went public, I have got very little trouble or contact or harassment from them. Whereas before, like they'd constantly be messaging me thinking they could get me back.

Samantha 49:14

yeah. No, actually that's a great thing. What I have found, and it's kind of what you're saying when you speak out, you're. Spontaneously become a target and untouchable at the same time. Like, there's just, like, we're going to get them, like, we're gonna dox them and like figure them out. But also they're convinced you're a fed, they're convinced that you have this, that, and the other. And like, I definitely have I don't even know how to say this, but like, you know, like I've been offered all kinds of stuff. If I wanted any sort of security, my answer's always the same. I'm not Beyonce, I don't need it, but like, I but like,

Lauren 49:49

But you wouldn't mind her bank account,

Samantha 49:52

honestly, truly, and honestly. But like, if I ever needed anything, if my life was ever in danger, there are people that are not at my disposal, but like are available to come and protect me or keep me safe. And like, it's, it's one of those things where like, I agree with you. Like since speaking out, like also I also wanna push that like, the worst thing I've ever done in my life is now on international television. Like, there's also a weird freedom that you get of like, I don't have any secrets. I don't need to keep any

Chuck 50:24

it is, it is very freeing. It like to, to be able to, to like, to like just put it out there and, and be able to say, yeah, I mean, it's out there. I, you know, I talk about everything I've done, you know, is very freeing. Also on the, on going public being kind of a barrier to at least, you know, former associates. There's also the aspect that, you know, if, if something happens to somebody in our position who used to be part of a group and they come up missing or, or dead or whatever, who's the first suspect? Who's the first people that are gonna be suspected, right? Like, the first place the cops are gonna go look is the former group, right? So,

Lauren 51:04

I, you know, I think it was also Thomas that said this, that if they tried anything with him, it would only like make his voice louder. And they probably know that. And now the other thing too is you would hope that when someone goes public, they don't feel alone anymore. That's also fucking scary to these guys.

Samantha 51:21

yeah. No, absolutely. And I think that's, there's a weird, like, so I don't, I don't follow any of the people that I used to know. Like, I don't, I, I broker no time and no one would, could pay me enough for them to take space up in my head. But, I'll get updates every once in a while. I'm just like, you know, if, if something happens that's worth noting or whatever and what I have noticed is that when I do certain media things, they'll make a comment about me leaving but they will never, ever mention. Life after hate. They will never mention that that I am in a former's organization, or that I got out and am successfully living a good life. Like, they know that they can't say that. And I just always find that to be so interesting where like, they can never say like, she left and her life has exponentially improved. What about you, Chuck? You've been out for a little bit longer than we have. What is that like, and do you still feel like there's like a quote unquote threat or do you still have that like anxiety and paranoia?

Chuck 52:30

Uh, I mean, no, not really. Like there's still kind of make maybe an echo of it, but it's definitely not like, you know, for the. Five, 10 years after I got out there, there was some, and you know, like I stayed in the same town. So there was, there was some actually very real possibility of running into somebody, but I never, like, you know, I never did. I just, and now like, uh, it's, it is really, like I said, just kind of an echo. I don't, I don't really even dwell on it anymore. So.

Samantha 53:08

That's good. That makes me feel better.

Lauren 53:12

Yeah. And actually I didn't respond to this one, but I got a video sent to me over Facebook Messenger one time of someone lighting a copy of our book on fire. And I'm like, thanks for the sale, asshole

Samantha 53:22

yeah. Like what? I'll cry to the bank dude.

Lauren 53:28

Yeah.

Samantha 53:30

that's really, that's so ridiculous. Yeah, that's what I mean. Like the, it's a bummer when you're speaking out to try and help and shed light on this situation and media muddles it and, and just buns it so badly that like, you're kind of embarrassed by all of it. Like, I don't wanna do me, I hate media. I've never really wanted to do media. This. That's just something I don't like. But it's so weird that media portrays, and I don't know if the media realizes that, like the far right laughs at it and considers it propaganda for them because of how poorly understood all of this is.

Lauren 54:08

Well that's actually also part of the reason why my mom and I did the memoir, just so we have that thing that's like completely authentic to us. Mind you, I mean it's been edited to death by our publisher. That's gonna happen, but like it's still ours.

Samantha 54:20

Yeah.

Chuck 54:21

probably do an entire show on Tom Metzger's manipulation of the media and how he used it to you know, put his message on national TV over and over and over again, and how people are still using that same model to this day, you know?

Samantha 54:37

Like, these guys know rhetoric. Like they know how to do that. Stop acting like they're these dumb fuck people. Like they're smart, they have education, they know how to do this stuff. Just cuz their ideology is bad doesn't mean that they don't know how to twist it. And it's just such a, a weird Yeah, that could be a really interesting, I mean, what would you wanna see? From like, what hasn't changed since you started speaking out Chuck? Or like what? does media still get wrong what does media get right now?

Chuck 55:11

Well, I think that probably the thing that is most wrong is that the, you know, this stuff is only in the spotlight, in the wake of an event, right? They only want to talk about this when something, you know, bad or, or approximately bad has happened. They don't, it's not something they want to keep in the public consciousness. They want to, you know, they want to use it as sound bites to grab ratings. Cause this thing just happened and now we'll talk about it. Right. That's, that's probably the most egregious thing. And then, you know, and then they just, you know, like they've far too often platform the wrong people. Like you were talking about. Like, they, they give people in the movement time and airtime and, and they think that, you know, they think they're smart enough. I don't even know if they think they're smart enough to like, keep'em from, from spewing propaganda. I don't know. But I, it, it's just like, I don't know, maybe they, maybe it's good ratings to have, you know, a Nazi on your TV station spouting Nazi propaganda and recruiting people through your tv. I don't know, maybe, maybe that's good ratings. But they, they really should just stop platforming them. Like, don't, don't have them on to talk about their stuff. You know, that's not free speech. It's, it's just platforming Nazis.

Lauren 56:24

Something else I've noticed too is like a former story comes out like after a serious incident happens, and for me, I'm like, okay, are we just trying to make people feel better about this? Like, what are we doing?

Samantha 56:36

Yeah. I think, uh, two different things on that truck, to your point where you were talking about platforming and outrage. There, there have been so many studies, like, especially when it comes to places like Facebook, like Twitter, like all of that stuff, like those are platforms, not publishers. And the whole concept of a platform is to get clicks and being angry about something, being outraged, having just an intense emotional reaction makes you more likely to come back or to continue engaging with this thing, either through comments or through like, I'm gonna see what these assholes have to say tomorrow, or whatever. That is all a part of the, all a part of the plan. And then I think I think even beyond the timing of it, I think the framing of it too, where it's always like, this is someone's daughter, not your daughter. It would never be your daughter or son. Like, don't worry, you're a good parent. You're totally fine. These people were way word and they fell into it, but like, you know, they seem normal. You know, their dad was an accountant and the mom was a restaurant manager, and like, these people seem normal. I, I think it's all framed in this sort of like, it can happen in your neighborhood, but it would never happen in your house. And I, I think,

Chuck 57:47

And I think there's also an aspect of like the, the wanting to maintain the media framing, at least in this country of, you know, if white kids do bad things, they're misguided and so forth and so on. But if, if brown people do, you know, crime or whatever, it, it's crime and they're bad people and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I, I think the media in a lot of cases does look for things that kind of back that narrative and, you know, showing the story of a reformed white supremacist in the wake of a white supremacist, you know, you know, terrorist attack is a good way to further that narrative, and I, I think that maybe in the wake of attacks, this stuff, I will in the future refrain from talking to anybody.

Samantha 58:34

Yeah. Unless it's as an expert.

Chuck 58:36

Well, yeah.

Lauren 58:37

yeah. sometimes I just don't feel comfortable commenting on this type of thing. Like the New Zealand one, I did have quite a bit to say about it, so I went for that. But like the Buffalo one or some of the other ones, I'm like, yeah, you know what? I'll just take a back seat here for now.

Samantha 58:53

Yeah. I think knowing when it's appropriate for you to speak up or when like, you know, the timing makes sense and stuff. I think there are some formers that also just get on their self-made platform and are just like, you should have asked me about this. I've done this and I've done that. Like I don't, I don't feel like that's appropriate for me to comment on. We all kind of feel like we should step back. Like what do you think makes that your place to comment on this horrific fucking tragedy? Um.

Lauren 59:22

know, the other thing I think about many of the mass shooters like there was a lot of other things at play, not just ideology with them.

Samantha 59:30

Well, and I, I think also there's a level, I don't yet have the articulation to discuss loan actors and the actual networks that are behind them and this, that and the other. And I don't wanna bring a platform or I don't wanna misrepresent that. Not only because I don't wanna get it wrong with, because I don't wanna accidentally give them a platform or have someone hear the wrong thing and then decide to Google that thing and become interested in it. You know, like I'm just, I'm not

Chuck 1:00:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Samantha 1:00:03

harm.

Chuck 1:00:04

for

Lauren 1:00:04

Actually another conference I went to back in December yeah, I think it was December. They even talked about that. It's like, okay, so the fact that his face is gonna end up on Rolling Stone Magazine or like on the cover of it, is just more incentive for them to do it.

Samantha 1:00:19

Yeah. Yeah. I'm calling them lone wolfs. They created the term lone Wolff. Like I personally think we should start calling them something that's going to like embarrass them. Like we have to like

Chuck 1:00:29

or call'em what they are, you know, members of international terrorist organizations that decide to act on their terrorist philosophy. You know? I don't know.

Samantha 1:00:40

Yeah. Yeah. I feel like there, there has to be a way to stop romanticizing the idea of this. It's not

Chuck 1:00:48

And. There is no such thing as a lone wolf in this movement. Everybody's interconnected, everybody's in touch, and the, you know, uh, since at least Metzger, they've been pushing that lone wolf quote unquote narrative to further their, their goals. And, and it's just a lie. You know? It's, it's, it's a lie.

Samantha 1:01:08

Like, I don't know, I just think, uh, just the whole movement itself, it's so cr I hate that it's fascinating because it's such garbage and it's so bad, but it's like, fuck dude. Like this is why it's still growing. This is why it's still around. Like you have to know their playbook. You have to know how this works in order to take it out. But yeah. Anyway, well thank you guys for talking. I'm pretty excited to see how this goes. All right. Thank you guys.

Chuck 1:01:32

Thanks Sam. It was great.

Lauren 1:01:33

you guys.

Chuck 1:01:34

Bye.