Accountability in the Church of No Forgiveness

The formers take some time to go back to when they left the movement and what steps (literally and internally) they took to account for their decisions. To whom do you owe amends? How do you move on from your past?Are you always going to be seen as a bad person? What do you do with all of this new fee time?

After the break, the formers talk about how many people they've doxxed, their thoughts on infiltration and fedposting, what is owed to the general public, and what it's like to be on the other side of the propaganda. 


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Transcript

Samantha 0:34

This is a conversation. Um, this is gonna be a round table discussion about accountability. Um, hows it, we move forward, decisions that we've made after we've left the movement. We have a special guest with us today. Her name is Sarah. So Sarah's going to be, not moderating, but just driving this conversation forward and, um, ask some questions that maybe normal people might have while we have discussions that forwards would want to participate in. Yeah. Chuck, what were you saying?

Chuck 1:04

I was just gonna agree with you about the, the guilt and the aftermath of actions that are, or whatever events that are related to violent far right. Extremism and feeling. I have some culpability in at due to, you know, the, the stuff that I. Put out there in the past and amplified and recruited for, and so it just, I get that same feeling, that gut wrench of, did this somehow relate back to something I did once upon a time?

Sara 1:35

Right? Yeah. Yeah. And you've been out for a long time and for you to still be feeling that really, I think, demonstrates that how accountability remains throughout your life, and you feel that sense of responsibility. Yeah. It

Chuck 1:51

does less than to degrees, but sometimes it comes back like it was last week, like the, just the slam in the gut of man that used to be me,

Samantha 2:04

right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. If I didn't leave, that could have been me. That would've been me. Mm-hmm. I would've bought the bullets, I would've driven the car, I would've gotten the hotel rooms for afterwards or something like, That every bit of participation just, well,

Sara 2:25

I think you're already in this idea of accountability and responsibility and how as formers you continue to experience your involvement. Um, but also the ways that you think about what you do when you have those gut checks and those gut punches, like you said, Chuck, how do you take accountability when those things happen? What do you do with that feeling of, dude, it could have been me. And what's your action and response?

Samantha 2:54

You know what, I sound interesting, Chuck, that I had this conversation with Tony and he had said that for a few years, he did nothing. Like he just went through the process of I'm just gone and I'm just in the ether and I'm floating around. And only now after being out for 20 years, is he like directly confronting the communities that he directly harms. Um, And it really got me thinking about what I've been doing in the past five, six years that I've been out. Is my trajectory correct? Is it appropriate? Am I doing too much, too little? Did I focus too much inward and not do enough outwards? And so it's just been like heartening, um, and affirming that everyone here has a different way that they move forward. And I think that an important thing for me to keep in mind is like there is no right path. As long as you are leaving the movement and evolving as a person, you do, you reach these milestones of, oh, I can't believe I did that. Or even as it's small stuff from as much as I met a person who was able to talk about my funds without needing their approval about it, I was able to say, yes, I did these terrible things. I was this terrible person to as far as. Some people feel like they need to speak. I was a witness in a pretty big lawsuit. I was like, there are so many different ways to take accountability that I think it gets lost. You don't have to polish you across and drag yourself around. Counsel, forgive me, I was terrible. Please, society, give me another shot. Like that part gets to me a lot.

Brad 4:29

Yeah, I think it, it has a lot to do with accountability in, in, in us learning about ourselves too, just as people and our emotions through whatever our lives are and however those individual processes go for us. And I think, um, I definitely want to shut out Tony's void situation because I very much experienced devoid as well and helped me with that accountability. It was literally nights where I was like cleaning floors at a hospital doing a menial job and like thinking about what that life was. What was that? What was I doing? And yeah, there was gut punches as Chuck was saying, but there was also times of, damn, I'm so glad I'm not doing that. And I'm, so, I feel so much better for cleaning floors and cleaning bathrooms at a hospital rather than hanging out with a bunch of racists and taking part in violence and doing all these awful things. Um, I know it sounds like tho those things could be, you could probably look at those things in the same light as being equally as horrible. Um, but one of them really just made me focus on what life could look like on the other side of this thing. Um, this movement or whatever that I was a part of. And the other was a cop out. And I think taking accountability for what the person persons, we were all were when we were in, in these movements, I think is important. And that's where I, uh, for me, it was a lot of time spent making up reasons why my life sucked. When I was making my own life suck, so, um mm-hmm. And then moving on and going, well, why do I have this job? Well, I'm thankful now that I have the, that crappy job, a working night shift at a hospital. But it's, I'm still thankful that I had that rather than the other, at least I was just doing an honest day's work rather than being a total piece of crap in this group and making up reasons why other people suck when it was just me trying to offshoot the problems I was having in my own life by blaming others for that. And we all know what that feels like, right? So, yeah.

Sara 6:40

Yeah. Both of you have brought up things that I've heard you all talk about before, and it's seems like those internal processes of taking responsibility and accountability, that self-examination of understanding, what did I do? How did I get here? Um, and then time. That this isn't something that you just do overnight. It takes time. And sometimes people don't realize that those internal accountability experiences are happening. They may not see them externally, but they're happening and you're changing and you're seeing yourself in a different way and you're seeing the world in a different way. And then there's also that external component of taking accountability and the different ways that can look for different people and that there is no one path in this. So I would love to hear more from you all about those internal processes. What are the, what's that internal accountability process like? That self-examination like Brad was just

Samantha 7:41

talking about? Similar to Brad, I actually starved shelves at a target for a year and a half, two years. And to have no responsibility other than to show up. Um, I. Was able to listen to on podcast and be quiet. And if I was around someone else that like needed help, I was able to examine, like Target is a very diverse company and I worked in a pretty large one, and I was able to like, observe myself and like, how do I act around people that are different than me? How do I do this? Why do I do that? Why? I don't know. Just about these kinds of smaller, these really small, almost insignificant interactions that I would have helped me re repeat the picture of myself, of, okay, I treat people like this. I used to treat people like that. Why? Why don't I do that? What did I do? Um, if someone else got a promotion that I felt I should have, like why did I think I deserved it? You just start to look at like, why is this my worldview? How did I get here? Is it correct? Is it steeped in realities? Um, And that obviously led to like larger changes that I wanted to make, that I realized I needed to make. But I think the smartest thing I did for myself was get rid of all responsibility. And also I had to accept that I was not going to forgive myself that day and possibly not that week, possibly not ever. I just need to focus on the small things that I can look at and examine. And I think taking that pressure away from myself to jump from one thing to another really helped me take my time and do it in an authentic and like, honest, thorough way.

Chuck 9:19

I, my experience is different from either one of those and I dunno, it's weird, uh, like when I left there, there were no groups. There was nobody else. There were like, I, I left in a vacuum basically. Um, and then it's weird cuz I, I, I jumped into, I had a career already, so I kept doing the same work. Right. I'm doing construction. Um, but I jumped into a relationship with somebody who wasn't involved with stuff and just buried my s I guess, buried myself, literally in a sense. Um, became somebody completely different basically in, in just how I was executing day-to-day life. And it was almost like anesthetizing myself in a way, just completely, at least on a conscious level, like cutting off everything, right? Mm-hmm. And it took a long, and that, that went on for quite a few years. Um, I think it was probably six or seven years of that before I ever even really started examining the involvement and the roots of it. And thinking, actually, I've talked about this before, but there was a time I had a conversation with my brother and he told me just in, in this conversation, said something to the effect of, that your superiority or your sense of superiority. And this wasn't even, I wasn't involved at the time and he wasn't even necessarily talking about. White supremacy. It was just this elevated sense of like self, that was not an actual, it wasn't an actual, like what my real feelings about myself inside were very negative, very critical, very low self worth. But that's not, I didn't project that image to the world. I used this like false bravado. I'm better than everybody and everything to cover that. But my, he, he said to me at that, in that conversation, he said, your sense of superiority is gonna be your downfall. And then some stuff happened in my life shortly after that, that it was prophetic in a way. I don't think it really was, but it was in a way, and that was really the catalyst to start some actual conscious examination of who I was, what I thought, what I felt, and why I felt that way. Um, but that was years later. So there was just like, the void for me was like literally a void. There was, I almost didn't. Exist in a way like my, that past self that was violent and a criminal and, and all those elements I just didn't like it was subsumed in this new life was like com, like a completely different version of me. And it wasn't healthy, I'll tell you that. It was not healthy it, but it did get me to a point where I could, the steps to become healthy. I think

Sara 12:13

it was like you needed to live in a completely different life, a completely different identity for a period of time and just practice that. And also a little bit of what Sam was saying of just, okay, go to work and this is how I treat people at work. And so this is, it's like practicing a new behavior before it becomes an internal part of yourself and your identity. Mm-hmm. I needed that time.

Samantha 12:35

Yeah. And I think there's something else and it, I don't know. I don't know if that was with older iterations as much as it is with newer iterations, but like I had like discord and all the chat servers and stuff on my phone and that was really tough where like when you're in the movement or even as you're like disengaging from it where you're like, well I still check the servers. I still look at all the chat stuff and then when you do fully disengaged you're like, holy shit, I have so much time and I have no idea what to do with it and I don't wanna deal with the fact that I'm extremely wrong about everything so I'm just going to find some other stuff to do. And yeah, you bullshit yourself for a year of not re at least of not realizing that like you might be a little bit more not okay then you are blaming or like willing to admit. It's tough to tally that up in so many ways. So I think people avoid it for a little, but it's

Sara 13:26

probably protective to some extent to leave and to not do that immediate self-examination to just. Try to go through the motions of life outside of the movement and new behaviors without that really intensive self-examination because everyone has told me it's really painful, worth it, but painful.

Samantha 13:47

Well, you're not just deciding to not be racist yet anymore. You're doing a lot more than just that. And I think you know that somewhere deep into the subconscious. And again, who wants to unearth that? That would also mean that you would have to extent why you joined the movement, how you got there, what led you to it, what your vulnerabilities are. It's now what

Brad 14:13

I, I think this links into something else surrounding accountability that we've all talked about so much. Um, that notion, and I think this is a responsibility that we all take on now, working at Life after hate and working in this space is like when we see a former. And we know we've gone through this process of thinking back to the movement, thinking how we joined, thinking, how we got out, thinking all of these different things. Like we've gone through this process and the pain associated with that, doing therapy, doing whatever process that we've got us to hear to be doing this space. Um, and then we see a, a new person present themselves just right at that time. And you're like, dude, you're gonna have to go back and rewind a bit. And Tony has said this a bunch too. Mm-hmm. You're gonna rewind. I remember him telling me one story about a new guy that had come out, and he just said, this guy was so, he was lost. He was, he would, he had barely digested that he had done, I don't, I forget the number, but let's, for the story's sake, let's say three years or four years in prison or whatever. So, and he wanted to come and help other people and, and it was just this feeling that Tony had just, I just had the responsibility of to say to him, your story hasn't even. Finished yet. You've gotta get, you've gotta get through your stuff and then

Sara 15:35

you're still in your story. You're not posting

Brad 15:38

story, you're still in it. Your stuff. Yeah. And yeah, everything was still present too. Like the gang shirts, the activity. And I know Sarah, you and I have talked about this with some folks too, it's like, no man, you just gotta stop wearing the swastika hat around or whatever

Sara 15:51

it is. Like Yeah, you're still blowing the whistles. The dog whistles. Yeah. We hear them. You

Brad 15:54

might need to wait a couple more years or more than that. Who knows

Sara 15:59

Before you can help others.

Brad 16:01

Right, right. But, but even for your own health and accountability of work through it, don't this

Chuck 16:08

in a way I'm grateful that there weren't any groups or places to go and I had to go through all that stuff on my own. Cuz I feel like if, if I had jumped out now and then life after Hate and whoever were available and I could, I would probably

Brad 16:24

like short

Chuck 16:25

circuit a lot of that process and jump in. Um, way ahead of finding what my accountability actually is. Trying to present myself as something other than what I really was when I got out, which was basically I wasn't reformed. I like my, my thoughts about other people hadn't really changed. You may flip the language a little bit mm-hmm. But that, that sense of superiority that my brother was talking about Yeah. Really hit me. That takes some working through before and

Brad 17:03

you lose it.

Chuck 17:04

And that, and if I had been able to jump right into limelight of here's the former extremist who has all the answers to saving everybody in the world from extremism. Mm-hmm. I think I probably would've lost a lot in that process and mm-hmm. It, it was necessary for me to go through all that stuff the way I did otherwise, I don't know. Yeah.

Samantha 17:26

So,

Sara 17:27

I have a question for you guys. Sorry, Sam, do you wanna ask or do you wanna respond

Samantha 17:32

first? Yeah, I actually just wanted to bring it up cuz you guys both mentioned it and I, yeah. Um, wanted to ask y'all, do you guys remember when you first started talking about it? I just, it just came back to me like a flood. I remember when I first contacted Liz after Haney and I was corresponding then I just remember all of my first ones were very vague. I was like, I need to feel leaving blah, blah blahs. And I remember being afraid to tell him because I was like, I knew so and so and I was this, and it was so important in the movement. And a few guys found out I would just, you would just lose your minds of how important my role was and how important I was and like, I need, and I just felt like I was simultaneously like, I don't know, I wasn't taking accountability. I was bragging

Sara 18:18

even though I was afraid of that.

Samantha 18:19

Mm-hmm. Even though I didn't. I wasn't proud of that. I was like, to me it was like,

Sara 18:24

it still felt like a special role. You were in a special Yeah. It felt, yeah, it was a big

Samantha 18:28

deal. And now you can hear it. If there's not that twinge of cringe in their voice, I'm, you're not saying this cuz it's necessary. You're saying this cuz you want me to tell you you're a big, strong person and this and that, and I just, do you guys remember getting out? What? When did you guys realize that it's actually really embarrassing to the, um, important in the movement to put it kindly.

Brad 18:54

Yeah, no, I was just ding The light was going on. Of all the, all of those things they, like, when I first started talking about this story of myself inside, it was so awkward. It was like, if you wore baggy jeans for a long time and that's just how you wore jeans. And then you started trying to put on some real tight ones mm-hmm. That were like confining. And didn't look so great. Um, that was it. And, and I wipe all my clothes after Covid. Yeah. Like that. What? Relatable. And it's the, the whole like from the beginning, the, in my story, I, I always skipped over the part where folks would ask, well, weren't you like the leader of this group? That's what it says here in this media thing. And I'm like, I have to be the leader. I'm not the leader of that group anymore. Mm-hmm. Um, and I hated it for a while. And well, I still hate that I was ever a leader in any kind of hate movement. But what was more important and was starting to become more important was that I was the leader of my recovery from that lifestyle. And whatever else was, you had to be individually motivating yourself on the daily to get through whatever things were going on. Um, and then there was a huge support network. I found talking about those things, like talking about who supported you on your way out mm-hmm. And the wrongs that you were part of, um, and talking about what the groups were doing to society. All of that stuff, I found was more important than talking about standing at a podium. I, we were watching a guy recently who was also a former talking at a podium saying this, that, and the other thing, and I'm like, dude, that's was us in the moot Stop it. Mm-hmm. This is like mirroring. It's just a different subject line. Bragging

Sara 20:50

Right. It feels like bragging and celebrating that role,

Brad 20:53

the romanticization of this movement and the violence and the, all of that stuff. I'm like, I don't want to be part of that thing. Yeah. Whatever. That is grossly the wrong thing that we should be doing as people with lived experiences. Can you imagine like, This is literally the dude talking about, yeah, I was beating this guy's face in and I was part of this group and we were like waving swastika everywhere and it was crazy. Do we need to hear that part of the story? Like we know that's what Neo-Nazis do, right? So I don't think we need to hear it that bit. I think what we need to hear is how did it go and how did you really get through it? Not the flag waving, not the violence, not all that stuff. It's like people are wondering if they want to leave. How is it that a person did this? Yeah. Not reminiscing and talking to all of our great social workers and mental health staff throughout the two programs I work with about how war stories actually have a part, but they are not the thing that we do. This is not the thing that we don't just want to hear back and forth about parts of the movement that we used to love so much. That's not hugely therapeutic long term. So yeah.

Samantha 22:08

I mean for me, like there are some funny stories from that time and my mom and I included those in the book just to show everybody. Okay. Like this is still life. Mm-hmm. There's ups and downs very much, but mm-hmm. Yeah. That was one thing with us is we didn't wanna capitalize on like the more violent stuff. What our publishers and like what our editor had asked us repeatedly is, okay, like we want the why and the how and the everything else behind it.

Brad 22:32

But I like how you guys did that though. Like how you Right. Explained it from a personal base of here's a story, but this is why, this is why this is part of this. It's not just a rando,

Sara 22:44

this is the what happened and this is the why behind it. Yeah. It made sense to have it. Yeah. And I wonder, I have heard you all talk about this a lot about, I don't wanna be part of sharing war stories. That's not what I wanna do. Where is that line between acknowledging what you were involved in and maybe being clear about the harms caused by that, or potentially caused by it? And not celebrating it or, um, engaging in that kind of war story. Glory days talk. Like where, how do you find that balance? What does

Brad 23:17

it look like? I talk about the consequence. So I talk about, okay, yep, so here's the violence, but here's also that I'm back in prison again, or I'm back in jail again and this Yeah. And it that kept going up and then you can't afford the lawyers anymore. Consequence to you. Yeah. Then you, and then the consequence to society, here's what this did to society, here's what the victims were saying about that time. Here's what the anti-racist groups were saying about that time. Like there, there's a way you can put all this stuff in context. Um, and, and it's, we wanna make sure that we're not, um, allowing a space for ourselves to sound like the way people talk about the mob, this mysterious like group of people. We don't wanna be recruiting people, is what I'm saying. Inadvertently.

Samantha 24:04

Yeah. You don't want me don't to sound attractive.

Brad 24:07

Yeah. Oh, we were all in the same jacket, same thing. We're all working out. We're all like, and we were winning all these fights and when we had all these big flags, we had clubhouses. If we do all that stuff, there are people out there who are sitting there going, what kind of garbage thing can I get involved with? Right. Yeah. And that sounds like a good garbage thing that I could get involved with where I'd have friends and social networks and stuff. Right. So we wanna, when we're talking about it, I think, not get totally away from what it is because there are, there's attachments, but what are those attachments causing, what are they doing to lives? Cuz we, we all know that extremist groups and ex extremist networks screw up more than the individual who is involved. So say members of the base or Adam Waffen or whatever, what, how are their families affected by their involvement in those things? Yeah. And I know from my own involvement, it's taking accountability. I there are. People in my fa in my family and friends that will never talk to me again because of my involvement. Yeah. And that's fine. That's

Sara 25:08

okay. Right. The restorative justice community talks about how crime, but I would say also violent extremism does harm to people, relationships, and communities. And so you, what you're talking about is that accountability of acknowledging, all right, here's the harm. Harm I did to myself. Harm I did to specific people as a result of my role harm I did to the relationships surrounding me and harm into my community.

Chuck 25:37

Yeah. On the flip side of that, if the point of your war stories is to one up someone else's war stories or to, to blow your ego up, or to make you appear either like more important than you actually were, or whatever the case may be, but to prove your importance and your worth to the community that you're espousing, that you have left. Tho that's the point where the war stories, um, are actually functioning in the opposite manner as they should. It's w Yeah, they're up. What your role in the movement and what the movement are, they're it's self agra and a grand of the

Brad 26:17

movement. Yeah. And you're completely

Chuck 26:20

losing sight of what the function of those war stories really needs to be, which is what Brad is talking about is, okay, yes, I did these things, but these were the results of those and these are why I would not have done those things if I could do it over again. Or why, yeah, why? Why these relationships were damaged. Why, how the community was damaged. So that's, I think that's a real, like a dem devising line and a way to look at it in that. Yeah. If you're just blowing your ego up by telling stories of what a great movement leader you were. To prove that you're the authority

Brad 27:01

Yeah. On leaving the movement

Chuck 27:03

then,

Brad 27:05

you know, I

27:05

think

Samantha 27:05

you could. I think also, um, what I try and do now, what I try and be really cognizant of is, um, if I have a talk about what I did then, or certain activities or things that I did, then what do I do now? Or what did I do to counteract that? Um, to just try and demonstrate, hey, I did this thing and it wasn't great, and now I'm using my powers for good. Or I was part of a dues paying organization and I participated in select one-off events and I tallied up the amount of money that I spent in there and I was determined basically to take the same amount of money and spend it on something else. So I started donating to the human rights campaign, or if there was a local person who had some sort of like displaced in or something like that, what are things that I can do that are almost exactly the same thing, but on the other side of the fence so that I can at least look at that? Um, Because if you're talking about all that stuff you're doing, and then you can be like, and here's what I do to accept or take accountability or Ruth Casa or mitigate or whatever, um, then you're not doing it again. You're just mm-hmm. Bracket. I really

Sara 28:12

like the way that you have all put that because I think it is important to hear the difference between personal propaganda and movement propaganda, like personal propaganda being like, see, I'm doing such a great job. Um, I was this, I did this and I was really important here and now I'm this and I'm really important here. Versus I am taking accountability for the actions, the harms that I caused and the harmful behaviors and the harmful beliefs that I promoted. And here are the steps I'm taking to hopefully make amends with communities, with relationships in my life with myself. Cuz you've also all touched carefully on. The harms you've done to yourselves, like the kind of moral injuries you have suffered and have had to take accountability for and, um, and come to terms with in your process in different stages and different places. Um, but that it's meaningful. Whenever you hear other formers out there speaking, you're like, ah, I don't know that they've, what you, we used to say has done the work. And I think the work, from what I hear you all saying is it's that taking accountability. It's that internal introspection about why was I in this, what did I get out of it? How can I make amends to, again, those people in relationships that I, in communities that I may have harmed and to myself so that I'm not engaged in this anymore.

Samantha 29:49

When I testified in that lawsuit, um, I sh it over whatever information they had asked me if it was relevant. So as we were doing that, I started to become nervous where I was like, well, shit, like I was in the movement. I lived with the person that did this thing like this, that and the other. And I started truly, what is I Federal? What if I'm legally responsible for it, what do I do? And I just said to all, every lawyer, every person, every law enforcement officer, every journalist I said, look like. Here it is. Here's everything. If I did anything illegal, please just let me know beforehand. If you guys are gonna arrest me, like you come to terms with the fact that like you might have been involved, you more than likely were involved with something terrible. And your unwillingness to take responsibility for that, either by serving time in incarceration, by paying fines that were put against you, by being ostracized from certain communities, like those are acceptances that you need to take. You can't just, oh, well I left now. It doesn't count anymore. You can't go back into mine and undo the things that you did. You have to accept that Part of accountability is to say yes, this is extremely inconvenient for me. I do not like this, but I am sure the millions of people that I advocated for the genocide for probably didn't love that. So this is the least I can do. I think speaking publicly, I'm doing this because this is more important than my convenience. I just feel like that's also a part of accountability that like, yes, internally going through the, like I was a jackass and I'm not one anymore. That's great. But also on a bigger scale, like serving time, paying fines, doing whatever you need to like, that also is accountability that you should

31:38

accept.

Music 32:10

I've

Samantha 32:10

been saving like this thought and story for a certain discussion. It seems fitting for this one. So I think I was telling you guys that, oh my god, what year was this? 2018 I think it was. So I was working right in the same area as the Toronto van attack. So yeah, I actually saw the aftermath of what can happen. So it's weird. So obviously I was the one like handing out rhetoric similar to that. Like I know the guy was an incel, but still like guy was huge anti-feminist when I was there. Mm-hmm. So, Yeah, I mean I was dishing out all that propaganda and stuff and then, so I left it behind, stayed quiet for a couple years. Um, and then of course that happened. And actually I can still hear the screaming from that day sometimes. Yeah. It's a little frightening. Mm-hmm. Um, so it's weird like having been on like both sides of that. So I think for me, accountability, I'm like, okay, so I was only a very small cog in the wheel, but I was still there. And well, I got to see almost firsthand what the

Sara 33:11

result is. Mm-hmm. Yeah. This is a recurring theme, I think in conversations with farmers, is there's that moment when you see an act of violence on behalf of the ideology that you were once believed in and promoted and acted on, or related to that and how that affects you personally. And how that either motivates you or um, causes those gut punches. As Chuck was saying earlier, that

Samantha 33:44

like, I'm still pissed off that it happened, but at the same time I also get why people get into that kind of thing.

Sara 33:51

Yes. Yeah. It's a difference between empathy and sympathy, right? You can understand how a person could get to that point. You understand the process doesn't mean you agree with it, doesn't mean you support it, but it's a process of understanding. Yeah. This kind of ties into what I wanted to say

Samantha 34:08

next actually. So as far as all the people saying the only good Nazi is a dead Nazi for me, I do not agree with that one.

Sara 34:16

Yeah. So glad you brought that up, because we do hear people say that the only good Nazi is a dead Nazi. We've had some of our clients, um, people have specifically called for their death by suicide. Um, And I agree with you, Lauren, that's not at all my perspective on this. We know that people can change. They have to want to change, they have to want to put in the work as you all have said. Um, and that's not accountability. Yeah. And we've known people who have died by suicide and have internally had discussions about how that isn't accountability, that's not taking responsibility. That's actually skirting responsibility and accountability. Yeah. And it's

Samantha 34:58

really weird, like whenever you, whenever people say the only dead Nazi is a dead Nazi, like you're the grand statement, best sweeping gesture of that whole thing. Like complete, don't get me wrong, I'm sure we've all met people in the movement that are like, Unreputed, they're just people. You just know it, you see, sure, you see light out in their eyes and they're just not going to change. Um, but you also see that in, in normal peoples, that you see people that make chronically bad and hurtful decisions all the time. Those people exist. I'm not gonna stand here and say that every person I met in the movement is just a misguided use. That's not the case. No. Um, yeah. But for the most part, I would say a paid 90 to 95% of the people that are in there for a reason other than what the movement promotes. They were so desperate in their life that this heinous bullshit is what they were. That was the price of admission. They were willing to pay to feel like they weren't alone. That is how much they feel failed and angry and alone in whatever. And I think. Keeping the boogeyman tag on and the evil and the like. We're perpetual villains if we are destined to only be bad people. That's only giving the movement power and it's not moving a conversation forward of okay, can people, if, can people be real rehabilitated? If you really wanted the movement, God, you would start seeing them as people with bad ideas and not bad people. It's just this very weird, like just, I don't know if you believe in rehabilitation that badly and you believe in all of that stuff like that has to be across the board and can't just be at your convenience or wherever you decide to drop a line. There has to be a way out for everyone.

Sara 36:45

I appreciate that you,

Samantha 36:46

oh, sorry, go ahead Lauren. Yeah, no, I was actually gonna say, um, I'm happy Sam brought this up cuz I often have this conversation about my clients, like as far as who can change versus who can't. Cuz we get some folks coming in where they wanna also take the friend with them. And I'm like, we all did. Yeah. Yeah.

Sara 37:02

It's like what? Save. Save their friends, not take them out. Yeah. Save their friends. Yeah.

Samantha 37:06

What I always say, you know, let's focus on you first. And they end up agreeing with that just because, yeah. I frame it a certain way and it sounds good to them and it makes sense. I, yeah. I have a client, speaking of exactly what you're saying, Lauren, where they do that. They're like, well, I'm staying in the server cuz I, I think I can talk my friends out of leaving. And I'm like, you realize that your friends counter to that immediately is, if life on the outside is so good, why are you still in here? And so I told'em, I was like, you have to like, literally show them the leg. Keep yourself available if you're so convinced that you can get them out, but like, you have to go in order to be gone. Yeah. And you just, I don't know. It is. I was like that too. Everyone just, everyone has the one or two friends that were in the both, they're like, oh, I wish they'd leave. But that's not my choice to make, man. That's all. Yeah. Yeah.

Sara 37:50

I will not pretend that everyone can change or wants to change. But I think there needs to be, I want to create a space and I think Life After Hate wants to create a space for those people to do that change with support hopefully so that it's permanent and they can really get out. And I think it's also important, and I love that you brought this up, that by um, saying basically that people cannot be redeemed, you actually play into the rhetoric in the movement because the movement will say to people that once you're part of this, they, the rest of society will never let you back. You will never be able to return to, you're

Chuck 38:33

an I'll do this. Yeah. I, I like, I sympathize a lot with the, there's no not good Nazi, but a dead Nazi people. Right. I understand where they're coming from. Yeah. And then I check myself cuz I like, wait a second. Um, where does that put you? If the only good Nazi Yeah. Nazi, right?

Samantha 38:54

Yeah. I don't. I'm wit it's tough, and this isn't a completely different context, but like so controlled, that girl who like was hang at 21, she was a Nazi and she lefted Hitler youth and became an antifascist. And like some of the most virulent anti-fascist people in general, not like the quote unquote anti people, um, are people that used to be on the far right because we know how bad it gets. I would guess that society makes it tough for us because you can't see if someone relapses on that ideas. And I can can't see a relapsed

Sara 39:34

fascist unless they show you they're a relapsed fascist. Yeah.

Samantha 39:37

Yeah. And so I think it, it becomes really difficult for people to understand something that not only. Will they never sympathize with, but something that they'll never like. It's something to have a physical addiction to a drug or to have physically harmed someone and to go to jail at certain times for it. But you know, I get it. I never committed an act of physical violence while I was in the movement, but I was totally fucking down for some heinous shit. And you can't prove that. I don't still think that I am always fully aware of that. I am always fully aware that if I have a bad day, I am one stupid fucking joke away from everyone thinking I'm back where I started. And it's just this very weird thing that I think is always in the back of our heads. We're graceful. We're so grateful that society gave us a second chance. But also, we are always doing this circus balancing act of, look at how much of a model citizen I am now. Look at how perfect I am, this role model. And it's like I'm not, and I never was. I'm not doing this for the general public's approval. I'm doing this for the person in there that wants to leave.

Chuck 40:42

Exactly what Sam's talking about. Like the main part of accountability for me is it's got nothing to do with how I appear to the general public. I could care less, right? It's not, I'm not doing this for me. I'm doing this in the hopes that even if it's just one stupid kid, but hopefully it's more than that. If one person hears the stuff that I say, and here's the, I made these mistakes. I went down this road, these were the results and this is why I now see that was really terrible stuff and a terrible path and it wasn't what I thought it was. And it like the hope that somebody changes their mind and somebody doesn't go down that road is, that's all of accountability to me. That's the only reason I'm doing this shit. I could, I could have stayed hidden and gone on with my life and probably never have experienced any kind of like, Repercussion or anything like that. I never had any, like the world know, but a, I was miserable like that. Like carrying this inside of myself as my dirty secret was awful. But B, the accountability portion of this just like dictates to me that I have to do my part to try and save anybody else that I can. Mm-hmm. From making the same stupid moronic like terrible choices I made and all, and causing all the harm to just like layer of and layers of people that I did. That's, that's all there is to it, really.

Sara 42:18

Uh, so, and I ask you all questions about specific accountability actions that I think some people believe Sure. That you have to engage in, um, because as you've all very eloquently said, Accountability looks different for everybody. It's probably different at different seasons in your life, different in different stages of the exit process. Um, it's internal, it's external, but we often are asked, or, or people will assume that accountability means you have to speak publicly. You have to tell your story publicly. And included in that is what you've also alluded to or specifically brought up, is you, in order to really take accountability, have to bear these really deep, traumatic, truly trauma experiences that may have led to the vulnerability to joining these movements or occurred during these movements, or were part of the exit of these movements. Do you have to tell your story publicly to and really get into that trauma exposure to take accountability? What do you think? No, I just, everybody have to do it. I just tell people

Samantha 43:26

to do it if they wanna do it. Like it's not mandatory.

Sara 43:30

Yeah. If you wanna, Brad? No.

Brad 43:33

Not speaking on behalf of myself, but for others. Yeah, no thanks. No, I don't think we should talk. And that's when I'm asked, and recently was at, at a talk. Oh, should every former have a space in public speaking? Absolutely. Never. And for sure vehement

Sara 43:49

head

Samantha 43:50

shakes all around. Yeah, yeah. Like

Brad 43:52

the silo of the formers who are out there just doing this for whatever. And then there's other thing of folks don't, if you haven't, like we've talked about it already, but if you haven't connected to your story yet and you don't know, and the trauma that you may face re-traumatizing yourself. Yeah. There's all those reasons for not getting involved in it too soon. So how do we, um, how do we get away from those cr creating those silos where the Right, creating those is there Yeah. Where yeah, the former needs to talk right away or you're just giving a space to these. Human beings that are not after healing and not after, um. Mm-hmm. It's actually very dis to, to watch folks who are like, yeah, I'm gonna help you heal. Yeah. Well, yeah. They're, oh, it's just another one of those guys telling some story. How do we know it's not make believe, Sam, you were just talking about Yeah. How do you know somebody hasn't changed their, has really changed their mind. We don't know. You. You don't know. You don't know where you're gonna be sitting on the bus and be like, oh, damn, I, I almost had a racist thought there about those, the Asian people over there. You don't like, how will we know if we have another racist thought in our lives? No. We know how to manage those thoughts now. Like Right. You're going

Sara 45:03

to, you're going to have racist thoughts. It, that's, it's, it's gonna happen inherent in our culture. Yeah. Let alone your life experience. Exactly. It's how you respond to them. It's what you do. Yeah. With those thoughts.

Samantha 45:15

Absolutely. Yeah. And it's, oh, you

Sara 45:16

bring up two really important things, which is, one, you don't wanna create a space where people are seeding their narcissism. And two, it can actually be harmful to constantly be telling your story, to constantly be revisiting that.

Brad 45:30

Yeah. Sorry for the soapbox moment, but I know I was like, Brad's mic drop. I know that it, I know that. It's like,

45:38

Brad,

Samantha 45:39

I

Sara 45:39

think you bring up a really good point. I don't

Samantha 45:40

think people realize what they're actually getting into, but I think it's just where we are now with technology and doxing and all of this stuff. Like people feel compelled to speak out because they're like, well, what proof do I have other ones unless I physically stand in the spotlight? Um, and I don't know, I'll probably edit this out, but there's a former that I knew in the movement who was super intimidating to me. Um, but about a year ago they just released a statement and said, listen, I did this. I'm not, now I'm moving on with my life. Feel free to move on with yours. And that's it. Um mm-hmm. And I've really respected that where it was just like, I have moved on, I have forged my path forward. Um, I'm sure they do other stuff, whatever. That's not really my business, but that's exactly the fucking point. It's, it's not your business. If this person is leaving, just be happy. They're gone. We are doing our best. And you have to like, just give us some time to prove that instead of making these demands that we have no choice but to fail. When I

Chuck 46:42

first started doing it, it was all, it was like kind of a little bit of a self-flagellation. It was a way of me, I'm, it probably didn't think of it this way consciously, but it was a way of punishing myself. Mm-hmm. Like exposing, oh God, you were, yeah. Being the guy all in the courtroom exposed his deepest fears. Um, yeah. It, yeah. And then at a point like that became a very, he heavy load to carry and it was really nuts. Sustainable as a motivation for doing that. And like now when I agree to talk to, even if it's not a public thing, if it's just researchers or, or mm-hmm. An off the record interview for background or something like that, it's, I can do it from a place where I'm like, okay, I'm doing this to further the goal of helping people leave this stuff. But I do not have to engage in the self-flagellation of bearing all the worst aspects of myself for the, yeah. For the titillation of the viewing audience. Yeah.

Sara 47:48

Yeah. And again, I always

Samantha 47:49

go back to when we were writing the book, like there was some stuff where I had told our editor and publishers just like, that is not making, that's not making that in a book. Mm-hmm. Like I just don't want that out in the public cuz some stuff

Sara 48:00

should be remain mine. I have another specific question cuz it's come up a couple times in different ways and we are asked this by clients often. Is accountability doxing all your friends from the movement? No. Do you have

Samantha 48:14

to dox everybody? No. Okay. No.

Sara 48:16

Do we make people docs at

Samantha 48:18

life after hate? And do we publicly? No.

Chuck 48:21

No we do not. But I have clients who have docx as looming. Um, yes. Yeah. And the doxing organizations or parties or whatever demanded of them. Correct. And

Samantha 48:35

I dunno, Chuck, you raised that point of look. Yeah. Life after Hate is never gonna tell you to dox anyone. I laugh at people or just nice try buddy. They try get information or whatever. But there are clients that we have that either joined because they got docs and that forced them to reevaluate their life. Yes. Or. They make the decision to provide that information. Correct. Complied with the subpoena for the court thing, because I felt like that was what, like that, what else was I going have them put? But that's not a docs. No, but I'm saying that different people do different things. We all have different, yeah, and it's, you're in a situation where like doxing is a quote unquote opportunity that you feel you need to take. That is your path job. I'm not going to judge you for it.

Chuck 49:22

Do what you gotta do. Don't feel bad about

Samantha 49:24

it. Also, very weird thing to say in that situation, but like also set your boundaries. If you're gonna dox people, you can say, I can give you this information now and I'm not available to you afterwards or something. I, I don't know. Yeah. Like I said, I've never actually been in that situation before. Like I've never done that, but. I, it's just one of those, your life is yours to choose. There is no like mm-hmm. Committee of people or like round table of people that are like, have you done enough to not be this or have you dox ex people? Yeah. there's, there isn't one. Like, it's just, if that's a fear, if that's some sort of thing that you're like, oh God, if finally, if a movement actually adopts my friends and I'm gonna pick my friends who would sell you out in a fucking New York minute, then get an out. Don't Ted nod around. Yeah.

Chuck 50:12

If they're not already informing on you to the fbi. I was meant

Samantha 50:15

to say, I think people would also be shocked at how many people are our clients that are just like, spilling information over to on. So we're just like, we can't, we're not doing anything with this. We're, I'm asking

Sara 50:25

you politely to

Samantha 50:26

please spell. Yeah. You know, I was like, I don't know. Yeah, it's wild that like the fed posting, the fear of the informants and stuff, look at your leaders. All of your leaders are informants that it's how they're not getting arrested. Well, until they do. I've, I've had like

Chuck 50:43

clients talking about, well, group I'm in doesn't have that problem. Well, another bro, come on man. Like your group is infiltrated too. They're all infiltrated. Every single one of them.

Samantha 50:54

Yes. I find it. When I left, I was so terrified of the left of the scary antica monsters finding these, and the only people that tried to dox me were the far right. Like the very people that promised to protect me were the very people. And I know they'll, here's the excuse of like standard issue. I'm a horror, I wanted attention. I'm a race trader, whatever. But it's, I changed my mind and realized that this was a bad move. That is it. And I left. And that was enough for you to try and find me and ruin my life and do all this stuff. And you

Sara 51:26

friends, enough, a literal physical risk. Literally threaten your life.

Samantha 51:29

Yeah. Yeah. When you are posting someone's information on a website, anyone can see it. And any deranged person that decides they're gonna be the martyr for the cause can decide I'm gonna find this person and just outright, slaughter

Chuck 51:43

them. I spent years looking over my shoulder. Not for anybody from the left. I was people that I was involved with that I was looking over my shoulder for and

Samantha 51:53

yeah, I don't, you know what the left does of it by you. They ask me, do you need mental health evaluations? You're like, we found you let, I'm here. I you now. Yeah. That's what I, neither the less nor the right can be to be like, that's just the reality. But the right says the left can't be. But sleep, neither of you can when you're so ideologically. Involved. You lose your sense of humor. You, you lose the actual enjoyment of life and all of that stuff. But I've just, I've never worried about what would happen if Thelen found me, if has found

Chuck 52:21

me fear. She did. Yeah. That was a big part of the relief is, Hey everybody, I was a fuck stick. Now I'll talk about it if you want it.

Samantha 52:30

It's just so weird that

Sara 52:32

the church of no forgiveness is the movement. Yeah. They may say that the rest of society is the church of no forgiveness. No, it's the movement. It's the people in the movement. Oh yeah. Look at say

Samantha 52:45

like the time that I was doxed, uh, that fucking idiot, and I won't mention his name, but I got doxed on Storm Brenton. I think the guy basically said something to the effect of, there's no forgiveness for traders. And I'm like, dude, you guys are the church of

Sara 52:57

no forgiveness.

Samantha 52:59

Right? And at the same time, I mean me, in my mind I'm also thinking good. I don't really want

Sara 53:04

their forgiveness or welcoming back. What else do people need to know about? Accountability and getting out.

Samantha 53:12

What was the toughest part for all of us? I think for me, um, having to actually define my own identity, if that makes sense. Just because I never really got like a clear picture of how I was supposed to act

Sara 53:29

or look or think or whatever. Like a lot of the

Samantha 53:32

time my therapist, he would just redirect the conversation to, okay, well what do you feel is right right now? Yeah. Yeah. So, and, but actually that was, uh, positive too cuz I'm like, cool, I

Sara 53:41

can make up my own mind on things. This is fun. Yeah. Part of what's attractive about the movement is it gives you a set of rules and an identity to follow and then you, when you get out, you have to make your own. You have to figure out who you are and what you think and what you believe and what you like and what you don't like without someone else telling you. But that's a lot of work. The

Chuck 54:03

toughest part for me was learning to find self-forgiveness. Um, Like being able to be okay with myself and that not just for being in the movement, but for all of the shit that I was carrying that kind of led me to getting in there in the first place. In a sense, not trying to blame it on my childhood or whatever. That was my own choices that I made, but the reason that those choices appealed to me, or there were reasons that those choices appealed to me. And learning to deal with all that and learning that that shit that happened was not my fault. And learning to forgive myself for my role in it and learning to forgive the people that were responsible for that stuff, that that were adults in my life at the time. Oh, that was the hardest shit for me.

Sara 54:54

Yeah, that is really important distinction of learning to take responsibility for the parts that are yours and forgive yourself for the things that aren't yours, and show yourself that compassion for. The vulnerable child, especially in this case, who was not being cared for and who created the vulnerable adult who was then open to these, this movement.

Samantha 55:21

Also, just talking about it, it's really hard. Like I am very, I can compartmentalize and to have to, I have documentation over the past few years of my journey of understanding my role in all of this and what I did and what my thoughts are on it, and that is really hard to revisit and it's really hard to have to articulate to other people and realize that what you think is the truth or what you excuse yourself for might not be acceptable and to have to hear that from other people. It doesn't matter that your mom didn't love you enough. It doesn't matter that this, that or the other happened, like you elected to do these things. That was. I'm all, I'm a private person, and to have the worst thing I am ever done and to have this years' long documentation of how I've evolved since then is really tough. My kids are gonna see that one day and I have to be like, yeah, your mom was a chuckle vodka. Now mom has hopefully become a person, and that's tough at any point in time. I don't know. It's saying it out loud and not being able to bury it and just let it go and pretend it never happened, or never mention it again, to actually face it on a regular basis, it gets easier with time, but it's never going to be easy. You do it

Sara 56:51

with an incredible strength in vulnerability really, when you are very vulnerable and at each stage, and we've watched it documented as well and can see that vulnerability, but that's really uncomfortable to look back at those different iterations of who you were and think about who you are now. And you do really get in there with that connection to your genuine raw self

Samantha 57:16

that is really painful. Yeah, it's jump. I remember I first started doing it, I was like, oh, well I'll just document me growing my hair out for when I like shaved it and bleached it of blah, blah blah. And now I have to be like, great. Now this is documentation like my character, like I have before and after pictures of all the tattoo coverups. I've also got the progression of laser removal over time. I feel like it's still important. Yeah, absolutely. And it also is proofs that you can change, like not just inside, like your outside will follow too. Yeah, I think

Sara 57:45

people underappreciate how much those external markers are really important reflections of identity and beliefs and sense of self and how as those change you, you may actually be watching someone, not everybody obviously, but you may be really in physical spaces, seeing that internal change happening as well. People

Samantha 58:08

forget that so much into movement is performance. Like it's literally cosplay of what is a straight white man, what is a trans voice like. These are not so any this naturally. And I think especially if they're dealing with sexuality or gender identity, there's a lot of, I'm not comfortable with that or I don't come from a place where that's accepted, so I'm gonna try and be this like the most accepted thing I can be. Um, yeah. Yeah, people totally miss

Brad 58:32

that. So yeah, I, I don't know exactly what was the exact hardest thing, but I can Some examples. Some examples. Definitely. Include looking back on life, I think we, there's a failing amongst a lot of the former space where it looks at, was that fun? Was this interesting? What was that movement to you? What did it mean? So learning about those things, the why you were there, why was I in this movement? I questioned the shame, I question the folks I chose to hang out with. Um, and because of my, before, times before the movement, um, the leading up to being involved in like criminal stuff and whatever, there's a lot of stuff that goes on about being accountable for previous actions. So I, I find that, um, yeah, looking back on, on everything sometimes is overwhelming, but mm. Uh, yeah. And being able to parse out what do I need to focus on? What are the things that are gonna help further this, I know now it's been 12, 11 or 12 years since I've been involved, but it's taking that time to, to. Build on little pieces that kind of got lost in the mix. And I know one of them is this innate problem that I have internally about, some of it was, some of it was exciting and fun and unusual and hit points in the brain where there was adrenaline rush to hang, walk down the street and be hated by the whole of society. Um mm-hmm. So working through those things and being accountable for those actions associated with the groups and uh, being, um, being able to manage that now, it, it's getting easier over time for sure. So again, back to that whole piece of it's not a healthy balance to come out and just be a person and helping other people right away. That's gotta take time. And I know I was. I feel like even, I know Chuck and I, we've said this, but being only out five years before I got involved with Life After Eight and telling the story, I think was still a bit early. Mm-hmm. And I, so I have that accountability thing of maybe I got involved in it a little too early. Like what? Um, so that's why I guess, so being accountable or that is now talking with new folks who want to get into the same thing about, okay, mm-hmm. Here's what it was like, here are some of the things that we've learned over time, and I'm not being a gatekeeper, but just being in the sense of being able to say, well, this is where I felt like it was wrong, and this is how, there's no support there for folks that were working in that space. There's no ideas about what should have been happening. So now, so there's accountability for the movement, but then there's also accountability for early involvement in C V E work. Yeah. There's that stuff that's going on for you too. So I think there's um, um, Stuff from day one, D-day or whatever you want to call it from mm-hmm. Leaving that day. Um, I think one of the biggest pieces that I think back on is giving it up, giving up the gang, um, and disengaging. So that formal disengagement Yeah. Piece. Um, that's one of the biggest levels of accountability. Cuz I looked at it and I go, and what's wrong, boy you've been involved in is wrong. The people that you were around were not good at social peer networks or whatever we want to call them. Um, like legit to look at that as a positive now though as being yes, I was at that time being accountable for leaving and saying this is negative. How now am I gonna deal with it? What are the next steps? And yeah. Managing those and however that looked so yeah. Can then end there.

Sara 1:02:14

No

Samantha 1:02:14

Absolut,

Sara 1:02:15

I think that so well said. It's like it's different hard at each stage. But even when you stop being a farmer, even for those of us who aren't farmers, we're also taking accountability for mistakes we've made and taking responsibility and trying to make amends. Right. So, very well

Samantha 1:02:33

said. My last question, what is the best part about taking accountability? Um, I can start, I'll probably add on to other people's just to get the ball rolling. Um, for me it's been like the build of self-esteem. I've never really added, even if I did, like, I didn't know when self-esteem really was, but the accountability through doing the things that I've done to counteract the harm that I've caused, I have never been so sure of myself and my ability to do good. Good. And like in the face of anything. Um, having known that. I have more than quadrupled anybody that I spent in the movement I've spent to also try and prevent things to do all of that stuff. Um, it's I'm, I live without reprieve. I can know that At the very least, I'm a neutral person if not a good person where I at the or I one at all times. Some people will never believe that I had to be a good person and that's fine. Um, but yeah. So as far as the best part of leaving and taking accountability, so a couple months back I was on vacation in Costa Rica and I had this slot, and I still remember it word for word. I'm like, yeah, I'll take this any day over the movement.

Chuck 1:03:56

For me it's knowing that my kid knows who I was then and who I am now, and accepts and forgives that.

Brad 1:04:04

Um, I think I've learned a couple things over the course of this discussion that are interesting just to take away. Um, and one is that like. Accountability involves forgiveness. And we talked a lot about how there are different people that leave these movements and all this kind of thing and all of our different stories. Um, but there are also people who are probably not going to leave the movement and probably will stay there. And we talked a lot, quite a bit about how the pancha, nachi theory, all that kind of stuff. Well, in our space though, in our compassionate hearts and the work we do at and day-to-day, we have a little bit of space for folks who seem irredeemable, right? For the, forget how Johnny Cash puts it, but you know, the hungry, broken down, beaten down, broken down. Those folks, we understand why people are in these groups. We were there and that's sort of what we're going on with that we're moving on with those types of things. And for me, Seeing the generations of people between you, Sam and Lauren and Chuck, and where we all fit in this. Um, and then meeting all these wonderful people that are also making their way away from extremism. I'm just really happy to be able to be a part of this type of thing and have people that also share the vision of when someone's been told they're never going to, they're never gonna make that change, or they're never gonna add up to anything, or they can never leave that movement, or they can never have a good life again. And here we are going, well, we're gonna try to help you have that good life again, even if it really seems like it sucks right now. Um, that's, I think these are, um, important takeaways where we need to, we just need to just keep this wheel moving, um, as, as it is, um, and understand how big accountability is, even though where, what stage of accountability we seem to be at that

Samantha 1:06:07

point. No matter how Rosso was, it does not have to be anymore. And I would not have made it without y'all to be honest. So that's

Brad 1:06:16

pretty cool. Good discussion. Overall, I'm really happy with as always. So

Samantha 1:06:21

yeah, so that is our conversation, part one, I guess, with Sarah. Um, thank you for joining and we'll see you soon and we'll be back with more. Oh, we'll see you tomorrow. Actually, that's it,

Sara 1:06:36

quite literally later today actually. Literally in just like, well, I shower, so,

Samantha 1:06:42

and all right. All right. See y'all. Bye.

Music 1:06:45

Bye.