Best of Season 1!

Happy Holidays!

Sam and Ang revisit the best clips of Season One and talk about where they stand on those things now. 

We are taking a little Winter Break but will be back in January!


www.thedailyformer.com

www.thedailyformer.com

Transcript

Samantha 0:12

a podcast that examines the past to try and make a better future. This is our end of year extravaganza. Yay! With me, I have the lovely Angela, who will be commenting on the top clips from our first season. These are things you want to revisit, either to reiterate or to talk about and disagree with. How you living, Angela?

Angela 0:30

Live in large live in the dream. not complaining about my life.

Samantha 0:36

Good, glad to hear it. how are your holidays? Are they,

Angela 0:39

Oh my goodness. The holidays, the holidays. So I have a Christmas tree in my house for the first time in decades. I have my house decorated. They're like Christmas things, but I celebrate Yule. So it's like a mashup of Christmas and Yule celebration. Lots of family around. I'm looking forward to downtime and just. Kickin back. How about you?

Samantha 1:07

Same. I'm traveling for the holiday and I actually did not put any Christmas decorations up. but I am kind of stockpiling Christmas decorations so that when I do move. I

Angela 1:21

have them.

Samantha 1:22

yeah, it's going to be like an insane amount growing up. Christmas was like really important to my family. So yeah, we'll see.

Angela 1:31

Let me know how it goes.

Samantha 1:32

yeah. And send me pictures of your

Angela 1:35

I will.

Samantha 1:36

other. Yeah, I love Christmas trees. They're so beautiful. But okay. So we are here to do our Okay. new annual tradition of our best clips from the previous season. We're going to be doing season one. in chronological order, what we feel are our best clips that we either want to reiterate and make a point, you know, to clarify, or we've had a change of heart, things are different now, or we just want to update and let everyone know where we're at with these things.

2:05

You

Samantha 2:09

in the movement you feel like you are the authority and you have all the answers, and then when you leave, you realize you are so far from the truth that you're like, I never wanna be accused of knowing anything ever again.

Chuck 2:19

That's definitely part of it. I mean, I, something I used to say and still do to a degree, but less so now is I don't trust my own judgment, you know, cuz my judgment got me into that shit, right? I need outside input into like, anything really. And that isn't so much the case anymore. It's, changed over time. I, I'm a little more trusting in myself and, and the choices I make and how I feel about things now. But for a long time there, I, always questioned myself my brother told me one time and he was always against this stuff, but he, he told me one time that my superiority complex. Was going to, destroy my life or something to that effect and that, that really hit me. Cuz I had been out for a while when he said that, you know, quite a while and to hear that your superiority complex is gonna, ruin your life. And then, some pretty bad shit happened to me not long after that. And

Samantha 3:20

was it a surprise to hear it because you thought that you had like done the work to be better or you just like never acknowledged that you had one?

Chuck 3:29

no, this was, this was like before I had completely changed my, my heart and my philosophy about people. And before I, I got, connected with Frankie in life after hate and stuff. So this was, well after I exited any kind of active involvement, but before I really had changed my heart. So that really, it was a blow. And for a long time after him saying that to me and then, you know, the, the stuff that happened in my life happening, and I'm not gonna go into all that, but it was pretty. Drastic and pretty painful. I, I just really didn't, have any faith in, being able to make smart choices for myself

Samantha 4:07

I think there's a healthy amount of self-doubt that people can have that just keeps your feet on the ground. Like, I don't ever wanna think I'm 100% right in 100% of everything that I do, just cuz that's not human. I have fucked up so much before that. The idea that I am now impervious to mistakes is just, that's grotesque behavior. So Angela, what are your thoughts on the clip?

Angela 4:37

Oh my goodness. You know. It is such a good topic to be able to really dig into and unpack because this is something that I think we have in common. Like so many of us have had to relearn again how to trust ourselves, how to trust our own intuition, how to learn to put trust in other humans again. And it is something that's been a part of my journey and I'm So glad to see that it was addressed that we got to hear different perspectives. I hate to be like yes Yes, I agree with everything but I it's a really important topic y'all talked about, you know Learning to trust your own decisions again, and that's something that It's been a struggle. It's not easy to learn to trust yourself again, especially after making some super fucked up decisions for some years, I don't know. What do you think about the clip?

Samantha 5:38

I think that clip is kind of everything that you're saying. it's, it's almost like a rite of passage when you're leaving and you're kind of realizing that you want to trust yourself, but you don't trust yourself. You need to trust other people, but you want them to trust you, but you don't know how to be trustworthy. Like, there are just so many layers in it. That you're, I mean, Hemingway said it best, or it's like the best way to learn if you can trust someone is by trusting them. And that's kind of how I'm very lucky enough to live my life now. And so far I've learned. out of the movement that 95 to 99 percent of people are trustworthy. They care, they're doing their best.

Angela 6:18

it is a really poignant point about learning to trust ourselves again and learning to have intuition and trust it That's a good little pop right there YOu want to play the second clip?

Samantha 6:31

So this second clip is from episode two with Tony McAleer And this is talking about taking the leap of trust

Tony 6:42

so I started to do these, um, workshops with a guy named Dog Barron and he. 10 years older than me from Manchester. I'm from around Liverpool and we bonded over Monty Python and quirky eighties Brit pop and stuff like that. He had a very similar sense of humor. And, I'd done all, all these courses over the span of about eight months and and my life had started to improve and my relationship started to improve. And, it was all about getting out of the way of your limiting beliefs and dealing with your ego and stuff like that. after eight months, it's my birthday and the guy who'd introduced me to this stuff, gives me a gift certificate for my birthday. And I take the gift certificate and open it up and it's like, ah, gift certificate for one-on-one counseling session with doff. Like, great. He doesn't want therapy for his birthday, right? thanks. So I go, I go to this thing and you, and this is a relationship I valued. I considered him a friend and. I'm telling them about why I'm angry at my dad and angry at my mom. And, and I'm like, do I tell'em the rest? Do I tell'em about being a neo-Nazi and a skinhead and a violence and the Holocaust denial? And I was terrified to do that because in my experience, when people had found out about my past, it was the end of the relationship. And a couple times it was the end of an entire social circle. Like, put your coat on leave and you never see those people again. so I was, I was, I was terrified. I'm staring at the floor looking for some wisdom from the pattern in the carpet. And nothing's coming. Surprise, surprise. It's like, what is it you wanna say, mate? Just, just let it out. And I stared another piece of the carpet and hoping it'll gimme an insight. Nothing coming. He's like, mate, look, we're on the clock here. You look like you wanna swallowed three golf balls. It's okay. It's safe. Let it out. I'm humming and hing and I'm, I'm like, I'm, this is a relationship I value. I'm terrified. To lose it. So I, I don't want to tell him, but eventually I decided in this great leap of faith and vulnerability to just let it all out and tell him all about all the stuff in airy nations and all the, all the stuff I just mentioned before. And the more I tell him, the more he starts smiling. And the more he starts smiling, the more I start getting totally pissed off. Like, here I am in my first session and he's laughing at me what's so funny? And he leans in with a big Cheshire cat grin on his face and he goes, I'm Jewish, right? I'm

Chuck 8:52

like, of course.

Tony 8:55

Why wouldn't Evey duh. Yeah. The irony of it. But there I was, cheeks burning with shame. And knowing that, here's a guy that loves me, loves my family, wants to help me, wants to heal me. And here I am, knowing that I'd once advocated for the annihilation of him and his people. And he looked at me and he said, that's what you did. That's not who you are. I see you. and with that I started balling, oh yeah, you're

Samantha 9:22

done, you're done during the day. Yeah, yeah.

Tony 9:23

After that. but with that Kim, the realization, if he could learn to love me, then certainly I could be able to learn to love myself. And that began, for the next five, six years, probably over a thousand hours of one-on-one in group counseling was that journey of self-discovery and peeling back the layers and running towards the pain and the wounds and the hurt that I've been running away from my entire life.

Angela 9:56

I relate to that clip so hard when I was in prison there were people of color that I met and people, of different religions and as I got to know them and as That realization of they aren't who I thought they were, you know, like, why didn't I ever take the time to get to know them before instead of just being like, they're the cause of every problem It was. Transcendent, almost, to share with someone, a woman of color, in prison, this is what I was, and, and like, I, I wasn't going to be like, this is why I'm here, but. I was like, I don't want to be like that anymore. And, and it is horrifying and Causes so much anxiety the build up thinking what if this person rejects me because of who I used to be and just like Tony mentioned I have had so many amazing people in my life that have said, that is who you used to be. That's not who you are today. And that is abundantly clear by who you are your words, your actions, what you represent the work that you put in on healing yourself and, learning how to help heal others. gosh, I hate to always be like, I agree, I agree, but it is another really poignant common factor that I have found with a lot of other formers, that fear of, what if I'm rejected because of my shitty behavior, words, actions in the past.

Samantha 11:39

the far right gives this impression while you're in there of once you're in, there's no coming out. And it's like, most experiences are like Tony's. Well, they'll laugh and they'll be like, you know, I'm Jewish. Right. glad you're out. Glad you don't want to kill my people anymore. And that's it, you know, and. that's all there is to it, but the right makes it seem as if there's this list of like really specific and really weird things that you need to do to atone for it. when you really look at it, it's petty, and it's Funny, the fears that they have, which is just giving other people the chance to live authentically is like an existential threat to the far

Angela 12:17

To their survival.

Samantha 12:18

And really all you need to do is just like be a good person. That's it. No one cares about the race of the person you're dating. They care if the person's an asshole or not. They care if you're an asshole or not. And that's it. So this next clip is from our episode with Andrew Moran. in this one we're kind of talking about the power of language and how you can manipulate it to get away with a lot more than you think. I spent a lot of time in the movement waiting for someone to either tell me Hey, this is the truth. This is what it is. Or someone to be like, Hey, this is all bullshit. And we're just trying to get attention. For the people that you spent time with do you think they truly believed the things that they were saying? Or are they just like I just want your eyes on me, or were they trying to sell an idea Yeah. That they believed in? I think there's a range, and not to do the the very sort of annoying, like it's a little bit of both, but I think that there is a spectrum. I don't think that every one of them is the same. And and again, like to the extent that these people stand in for kind of archetypes that will continue to exist in the future, I don't think there's any reason that anybody needs to be thinking about what Milo is doing or saying now, but he's an archetype that we can use to think through future versions of, there will be people like that in the future. And similarly I think there's always a combination from pure provocateurs to pure ideologues, and there were lots of combinations in between. So for some of them, often what the Silicon Valley gatekeeper people will say is if you just re-engineer the incentive structure, you can get rid of a lot of this behavior. I think that's only true if you know what the true incentives are, and for some people it's just, I can make money from, link mills or fake news mills or whatever. For other people, if they're real ideologues, you can't make them go away just by removing the incentives. If you're a dedicated enough Nazi, you can be shut down as many times as you want and you're not gonna just give up. Think it was also really smart of you to bring up like this southern strategy and everything in there of if you euphemized your speech and you soften it, you can effectively get any idea out there where you're just asking questions or making observations and you go by all of the sensors. And I think that is something that we need to reckon with is just for myself and for so many people in the movement, it was like I didn't say racial slurs, so I couldn't have been racist. And yes, you could have you are living proof of that concept, And so then you can imagine how hard it is for someone like the head of content moderation at Facebook or Reddit or whatever because they're starting from the premise of if we can just ban all the right slurs, we will fix the problem of racism on our platform. That's not gonna work. Yeah, that's not nearly enough So I really like this clip because I think the manipulation of language and ideology is very dangerous. if someone actually understood the full context their ideas would be substantially less popular.

Angela 15:15

I enjoyed this clip because, I think there's a lot of things at play. You know, we're talking about the mutation and speed of technology. We're talking about that colliding with social media that's unregulated or not regulated properly and the foundational questions of who can say what and when. It reminds me of this project. I saw in a webinar, some months back. honestly, like, the presenter eludes me. I don't remember who it was but it was an inoculation theory about. Arming individuals with knowledge and compassion instead of banning words, arming individuals with like, this is what this word means. This is the human cost of using it and. You know, maybe teaching some compassion and trying to stop anything before it starts, there may or may not, I could be wrong, be data of at least one study where this was tried. there was a group that was. Inoculated and, you know, we'll put that in air quotes against some form of violence or, violent extremism and by inoculated. I mean, they, they knew what it was. So they didn't see it and think, oh, it doesn't look that bad. they knew or somehow we're given the information of this is what this means. wHen it's used in this way, it's some kind of slur or derogatory remark it's hurtful because X, Y, and Z, and they were arms with just enough information that they were able to make better choices about what they would engage in. I know that was a really long winded way to explain, but listening to the clip, that's the first thing I think of I'm not even on a path anymore of trying to ban stuff because freedom of speech is important for anybody. But if you give People information about how words could be violent or words could provoke violence or this is the human cost of doing this simple thing. And why would you want to do that? why is it so important to be rude the numbers showed that that was helpful in preventing people from pursuing what that word meant, what it was linked to, the rabbit hole, it would take them down if they got into that on the Internet, which, as we know, is exceedingly easy to do. In just about any platform, social media, you can find that rabbit hole.

Samantha 18:17

when you were talking about how the technology, evolves and it moves so quickly, like the words and the aesthetic of the movement also transforms a lot, mainly because It doesn't take too long for someone to figure out what they're actually promoting and then they kind of back off or get nervous or the government steps in or someone steps in and is like, hey, this is my platform and I'm not going to stand for this get off. these people will just have to keep changing and keep evolving and keep, picking out a different uniform. And I think even with inoculation, there is. Just an extra step of trouble because I was smart enough in a lot of ways, but I wasn't smart enough to overcome my own insecurity. And again, like with the banning of books and with all of these things being censored, we are taking away that ability for people, for children to learn agency, to learn media literacy and all of those things. And I think that's a really dangerous place to be in.

Angela 19:19

I hear that, I hear that, and I appreciate that. None of this would be my first choice. However, I'm willing to at least give a potential solution a chance. And if it doesn't work, We try another one I'm I'm not trying to be like an alarmist or Super dramatic or anything, but what we see happening around us in our communities especially when it comes to violence against Individuals who should almost be on an extinction protected list at this point Being targeted and we're seeing it. We're seeing rising anti semitism rates there's no question. There's no debate. Look at the numbers So the way I see it is we do what we can like the onus of solving the problem isn't on us. But if we can contribute to something that's helpful, I'm totally willing to, give things a chance and see, does this make sense? Do we have, statistics, data to back it up? I would at least be interested in reading additional studies, from that 1 study, it did look like it was helpful and it's not 100 percent helpful, but there was a percentage increase on the number willing to stop and do critical thinking before just following that path.

Samantha 20:55

Yeah, I. I am not disagreeing with you. the inoculation part is, is great and helpful and any percentage increase of people choosing to opt out of violent ideology is awesome. But I do just think that as time goes on and as Certain things are happening within the educational system, it is going to become harder and harder to do because people are becoming less and less equipped to do these things Alright, so these next two clips are all about you, Angela. I love these clips. they're so vulnerable and honest, and I cannot tell you how many people have commented to me about it, and I wonder if you'll understand why after I play it, so here it is.

Angela 21:45

in the beginning though, there was weird stuff for me, like coming out of prison, I would feel weird eating ethnic food because that was something that I was never allowed to do. it was like, what You ordered Chinese food almost like you had to feel guilty, or secretive, like you were doing something. I had to unwind a lot of that.

Samantha 22:07

Yeah, I was about to ask when you. For lack of a better term, practice doing this. like, would you like order takeout, like eat it secretly at home? did it just take you a minute or how do you unravel that?

Angela 22:18

It was just weird. Like there was so much going on for me. change wise. When I came out of prison, I also came out out of the closet.

Samantha 22:29

wow.

Angela 22:30

Um, so that was also happening and I was making a whole new group of friends, so everything was different for me. It was like my hairstyle, like, what do I want it to be? How do I wanna dress? You know, like one of my girlfriends took me out to Thai food and I was in my late twenties and it was the first time I had ever had Thai food in my life because I got involved when I was 15 and I stayed in until my early twenties and then headed to prison. I had those first time experiences of oh, this is what this food is like, wow, that's different than I thought it was. But it was more like an internal awkwardness and things that I had to work through in therapy. Like, why do I feel so weird?

Samantha 23:17

yeah, you're like trying yourself on for size and just like seeing what fits and what doesn't. I love that quote, If I could tell you how many people have contacted me and asked if you were telling the truth about the Chinese food, I could probably buy a compact SUV now outright with no payment plan. It's just so vulnerable and so real. You look like you have feelings about this.

Angela 23:50

they're good tears. I really enjoy where I am in my life right now. I'm really grateful to have made it to a place where I can be me.

Samantha 24:04

I'm grateful for you.

Angela 24:06

You turned my superpower around on me.

Samantha 24:10

It's just such a, it's just such a good example of a big win for people like us and something else that's like a complete mystery for other people. it's such a unique experience.

Angela 24:25

Thank you. is liberating to be able to do what The fuck I want.

Samantha 24:33

I hope when we all hang out, we get like Indian food or something. That'd be pretty cool. Yeah.

Angela 24:38

I don't know. what do you say to people? Like people think I'm lying?

Samantha 24:43

I think it's just something we have a lot of experiences and it always surprises me when we talk about these things we talk about them with such nonchalance because we're talking to other people who get it so we're able to open up more. But when I talk to friends or colleagues or people writing in. there's just this total shock of like, wait, it went that deep or it was that serious? Like, I don't think people understand, especially for women, the restriction that's put on them or the lack of life experience that people have. the inability to learn for yourself is completely taken away from you in the movement.

Angela 25:30

it is.

Samantha 25:32

And I, I think it, it is very real, Yeah. Angela fucking loves Chinese food now,

Angela 25:39

How am I

Samantha 25:40

thank God. Cause it's delicious.

Angela 25:43

Do you know what I had last week? Korean barbecue.

Samantha 25:49

Oh fuck. Yeah. Korean barbecue is so

Angela 25:50

And? a hot pot.

Samantha 25:54

Um,

Angela 25:54

make me cry anymore?

Samantha 25:57

well, the next one

Angela 25:59

It's also me.

Samantha 26:00

is also you. And it's funny cause you already basically said the quote, but I just think it's really important to, highlight these things you are so knowledged and wise and interesting and there was a lengthy part in your life where you didn't have your own voice, you didn't have your own sense of self, and to be able to develop that or to meet you now, Is just such a privilege and I think it's really cool. buT anyway, I'm going to play the next clip, which is about being able to trust yourself after being taught not to for so long,

Brad 26:46

Sam, earlier you were saying how I don't really have time for people who are like, just generally shit to everyone. Like we've done a lot of cutting out of different folks who are either super negative or reminders of the movement like, oh, this dude would've flourished in the movement. I'm not hanging this person. You like, I'm just not gonna allow that person into, into this sphere anymore. cuz there's certain personalities of people like you, you can pick up on them. And I'm like, you know, I'm good. I'm just gonna like chill and maybe hang out with the people who seem to be enjoying life, you know? I think that's important.

Angela 27:24

That is so important. the enjoying life part is something that I am just like flying by the seat of my pants on now because I, for a lot of reasons, I felt like I had a lot to make up for and like, it, it wasn't okay for me to have any fun while I was making amends and, doing the trauma porn of telling people every last horrible thing about myself and all of that stuff. But today I'm just now realizing that like, I did all that work on myself and it shows I have never been happier in my entire life. I love the person that I've become. I love my life. I love the people in my life. There was a point in my life when I couldn't trust my own decisions, and that meant I couldn't trust who I allowed into my life. And today I can trust my choices, I can trust me. And that was something that I was not even in the same hemisphere of way back when, when I was involved in the violent, far right. And you know, somebody, I don't remember who mentioned earlier, something about just being happy, like realizing you're happy. you all know, I recently relocated. I love where I'm at. The scenery is different, the weather's different. everything is different. And I think to myself, like I drive around and am like if I saw me driving around by myself, just cheese in away and putting on a concert for myself, I would think I was a nut job. But knowing what's happening in my heart, in my head, and what I'm hearing and what I'm doing every day with my life, like I'm proud of myself. I am proud for how far I've come and how far I've worked and that, know this is gonna sound super cheesy, but one of the things I've realized, um, I recently propelled myself out of self-isolation and I spent more than a decade isolating myself. But what I have realized is that there are so many people in my life who love me and care about me and are willing and not just willing, but want to be in my life if I allow it. And that is such an amazing feeling to have, like, to me that is. The epitome of happiness. That is the epitome of I've made it and it has nothing to do with like money or I've got this many statues and awards or anything like that. like I'm not used to smiling, I've got frown lines for a reason so for me that has been really important and it's been such an amazing feeling to feel it and to know the depths at which I have been and the the lows that I've had in my life to being who I am today and having the opportunities and the people that I have in my life today that show up every day, that, their words match their actions. these things are so vastly different than when I was involved in the violent far right. It's like, wait a minute, you guys were not only foolish shit, but you were so full of it. You're overflowing with it. This is what life is supposed to be about. This is happiness.

Samantha 30:50

I could listen to that like every day.

Angela 30:52

Oh my god.

Samantha 30:53

It's so good.

Angela 30:55

Thank you for another cry, Sam. Again, turning my own superpower against me.

Samantha 31:05

I just love it. I love you so much and you've been through so much and to know that you can still say all that and mean it. It is incredible.

Angela 31:18

and cry happy tears about it. hearing myself say that makes me proud of myself.

Samantha 31:25

Funk yeah dude.

Angela 31:27

I'm proud of, A lot of things, you know, proud of all the things I said, but proud of what we have here, proud that I get to do something meaningful. There's always been something missing in my life. Being able to have these conversations today when I never even thought I would make it to this place. Like I look around me every day. I look at the people I get to work with and the important work that I get to do and I'm like, What? And then I remind myself like I've worked really hard.

Samantha 32:09

you built this. Fine.

Angela 32:12

I, I built it. I would say I took part in building it. it's been built by a lot of hands and a lot of people that cared It wasn't me just you know, like pumping iron with one arm. it makes me proud for all of us, It warms the cockles of my cold black heart.

Samantha 32:31

I Just think it's such a testament. You've been around since day one and there's no, no way that every day, you know, just got better and better and better. I know there were struggles and trials and tribulations and trials with struggles on top you stuck it out and you made it to this, you know, and some people's journeys might take longer. Some people's journeys might be a lot shorter, but the fact that we can all get there and the fact that you have and you're still going, the fact that you're still here is really cool.

Angela 33:08

Thank you. I love you very much too. the tears are grateful tears that we get to do this. Our team gets to do this. we get to do this together. And see each other and have space, like a safe space for each other and that we get to model that, that's pretty cool.

Samantha 33:31

it's more than cool. Fucking rules. Like, let's be honest. All right. Well, I hate to be that guy, Angela, but we still have like four more clips to go.

Angela 33:40

Onward, soldiers!

Samantha 33:43

Hell yeah. sO this next clip I brought up because I really, like. what it's saying. So I just kind of wanted us to Reiterate that and talk about our experiences with it. So here's the clip.

Brad 33:59

That makes me think about class and the movement and the generations. Like, within the groups, there's this classism stuff that goes on where it's like, that guy's too rich. He has a job and he's like a, he's a capitalist, so fuck that guy. And then of course the, the natural progression of the grinding down of the movement turning in on itself, like you said, fighting each other the infighting becomes itself like nobody's good enough. It's never good enough. That guy's a capitalist. That guy's poor, that guy's middle class. Oh, that guy's kind of a Callie, I mean I remember it within the group I was in. It was like, you would be rated a better guy if you have a better high paying job. But then the low guys who are sitting there on welfare, they're like, yeah, that guy's a capitalist. See, I told you he's a Jew as well. I'm like, what? What is this? What is this we're in? Why is this all bullshit?

Samantha 34:49

Yeah.

Brad 34:50

I don't know if that makes sense or resonates with anyone, but yeah, that was going on all the time.

Samantha 34:54

Totally. Or I don't know if you guys had it, but the group that I was in, we fancied ourselves, you know, we were fucking pretentious. We were literally called the hipster Nazis. And like, we always did the like, well, we're not that group. we don't carry around the shields with swastikas. We don't have tattoos. but then we were called Optics Cox, where everyone was just like, you guys can't be true to the ideology because you're not out on the street, or you're not doing this, or you're not doing that. even while you're in the movement presenting this united front, Like no one actually likes each other in there. You know? if the four of us were in the movement now at the same time, we would all be in different groups and we would all fucking hate each other. and you know, we'd go on and be like, yes, my brother and my comrade, whatever, but As soon as we got in the car we'd be like, they're disgusting, or they're this or they're that.

Lauren 35:38

actually, Brad, wasn't that the case between, uh, frigging the group that I was in and the group that you were in, uh, one point, they fucking hated each other. A

Brad 35:46

not at one point. I think they hate each other the whole

Lauren 35:49

lot of points.

Brad 35:50

but it was like, it was like a super almost homoerotic thing that would happen sometimes where they'd get back together and be like, yeah, we're really bros. And I'm like, nobody in this room Ls, anybody in this room. Why are we in this room together? We all need to just leave. And I'd be thinking that in my head, but everyone's like, no, bro, let's get drunk and hug each other and we're friends again.

Lauren 36:19

I know what you're talking about. It's just that it was hard to keep up with just because it changes day to day and minute to minute,

Samantha 36:25

Oh yeah.

Brad 36:26

Well, it'd be like one guy says one thing and it changes, right?

Lauren 36:30

yeah, and I mean, just because of that, I feel like we kind of ignore that as like a piece of why we burn out eventually. Like it's not just the ideology, it's not just the fighting, it's the fact that everything is inconsistent as fuck.

Samantha 36:44

Yeah.

Brad 36:44

yeah. And it's exhausting to keep up with all that drama.

Angela 36:50

Well, agreeable me once again. takes me down this pyramid of all the different iterations And the different groups and like this hierarchy of who thought their shit didn't stink and everybody else's did. And it, it resonates because decades ago when I was involved, that is just how it was. You know, it was this group hates this group and thinks this one's stupid or ours are like stronger or more Aryan beliefs than everybody else.

Samantha 37:26

Yeah. We were always waiting behind them with a knife

Angela 37:30

Absolutely.

Samantha 37:31

And I think about it a lot now, especially as, as far right politicians and stuff start attacking institutions and other leaders and stuff like that. it's not funny, but it's almost funny to think about that. Like if the right ever was in charge, it would cannibalize itself. It is a snake trying to eat its own tail.

Angela 37:52

That was my next thing, is to say there's a broader theme that I'm seeing here, and that is, at the end of the day, when the violence and the aggression eat everything else in its path, where are you turning next, you know, and it's never inward.

Samantha 38:12

it's very interesting. When I look back on all of it The far right gives you these weird things to like obsess over and think about and there's, it's just so frustrating. Yeah.

Angela 38:27

Overall, good clip. Like I, I like this one. I think it's important. And I think that the more We highlight these things, the more understanding we create for others about the structure of the violent far right. You know, how it was when each of us were involved at different times, that there's still this same pecking order ish kind of theme that runs through. All of it,

Samantha 38:56

no, absolutely. All of our stories are different, but the through line of everything we went through, we all have the same effect. Which kind of brings me to the next clip. So this next clip I really like and I'm not even going to describe it. I'm just going to have us listen to it and then we'll talk about how we feel about it. So here it is. when I was in there, there was a server called the Hall of Hoax and other Lies, and it was an entire server, like of 30 channels one of the first slogans that I had heard when I was like digging into it and being like, wow, the AltRight is like fun and whatever. Someone had said, welcome to the alt-right where the Holocaust never happened, but we want it to happen again. I remember realizing like that is exactly the mindset that you have to have in the far right is let's conveniently ignore the death and destruction of millions of people. but also let's hope that that's a thing. Let's hope that that continues. You can't say you're not violent, you know, and having all of those servers and all of that stuff. Exactly like you said, I never needed to go out onto the street to feel like I was a part of something. That world was accessible to me at all times. I would be managing a martini bar and on a smoke break, I'd be going out being like, yeah, you know, and saying all these awful things online, or connecting with other people privately or whatever. and then going back in and being like, yeah, how'd you like your cosmo? Would you like a larger lime with that? Like I, I lived two completely separate lives and I told people I was in the far right, but because I didn't have that look, they were just like, yeah, okay, whatever. Like, sure, okay. Like, you're pleasant. How could you be a Nazi? I love this clip only because. Oh, it's because it's all me. No I like this clip. Because it does two things. It shows how you have to, in order to survive in the movement, not even thrive or move forward, you have to compartmentalize your brain into things that make no sense. You deny the Holocaust, but you call for a sequel. And then also farther down the clip, it talks about how your life becomes compartmentalized. The movement is always accessible to you, it is always there, it is always something you're thinking about and somehow you have to find a way To fit in with normal people to fit in with polite society, even though you are wishing nothing but death and destruction on all of them and the movement will deny it. They'll say we're not anti anyone else. We're just pro white, but that's not how it works.

Angela 41:40

part of the double speak. Right? Like, that's that's full scale gaslighting. Like, Look at this over here. Now, where did it go, you know, magic trick I see you behind the curtain. Like, you know what I'm saying? because I know that that is an actual tactic of the violent far right. Not only because I read it in books or read studies, but because I was there to experience The on the ground conversations happening around me

Samantha 42:11

The goalpost is always moving. It's never.

Angela 42:16

constant mutation. it's the big switch a Rooney and. any joking aside, I have done a tremendous amount of work with the National Holocaust Museum, behind the scenes, and believe it or not, this idea and this bait and switch is a tactic that has been used for decades upon decades if you look at how Jewish people have been persecuted. You will see this pattern unfolding long before you were involved, I was involved, any of us were. It is built into tropes, that we see historically. It is, it's not new, it's just different language, there is fact to show historical evidence from hundreds of years ago that this theme was already in existence, already running. You can see the evidence. You can see the data. There's not really any disputing it. Yet. the theme keeps being pushed. So yeah right there

Samantha 43:24

I find it to be really interesting that the whole movement is like, we need to be strong and have legacy and do all this stuff, but also we're just a little baby. Everyone hates us. it's just weird. That clip just kind of encapsulates all of it, how you have to compartmentalize in order to survive and that eventually becomes impossible because you're the next target at some point.

Angela 43:45

absolutely.

Samantha 43:46

All right, so our next clip, our penultimate clip is from episode eight. where we kind of expose the reality behind the veneer of, propriety and being prim and proper and how the far right always talks about, family values and what that actually means to them.

Brad 44:12

it was people who are lost, so they hang onto this identity like a, It reminds me of like just finding a reason to be a degenerate or whatever and like I hung around the rave scene. The rave scene was similar. Like that was earlier in my teenage years and that was similar to it. Like how, how can we break all the rules and be awful?

Angela 44:38

It was a dirty identity and lifestyle. Like it was so dirty and gross. it's an identity that you wear, you know, when I was involved, it was like that, now I, I notice, it's, you know, shifted, and it's different now, but back then, it was just dirty, like, the aftermath of a skinhead party, it's just people laid out everywhere, All kinds of disgustingness, you never knew what you were going to find. Somebody like hung their shitty underwear from a doorknob or like pissed in the fake plant in the corner or, you know, there's, there was

Brad 45:14

I'm laughing, but it's so That's all true though, like the, in the roots of the identity of these, in these groups, that's, this is where it lives. That's what like, this is what needs to be, these things need to be exposed. So when people are like, Ooh, I want to join that group. no, it's going to be a bunch of dudes laid out at the end of the night with beer bottles and laying in vomit. Like that's what it's going to be. It's not going to be like this ideal white. Working class, guys all dressed up nice, treating each other nicely, you know, in prim and proper. It's the fucking opposite of that.

Samantha 45:53

and even, even in the new iterations, I went to a bunch of parties where they were dressed in slacks and blazers. sleeping underneath stairs, fucked up beyond belief, like at the landing of stuff, the bathrooms never had toilet paper in them. Like it's, it's. It's gross. It's just fucking gross. I really love what Brad was saying.

Angela 46:19

Can I just say, I think this is a great clip. Because, you know, we dig down into this, dirty compartmentalized memory bitch. that we have of the actuality of the lifestyle. Not the perceived, this is what I think it's going to be or what I was told it was going to be. This is the low down dirty deeds on what it was really like. And it was dirty. this era of my life is probably the time in which I came to terms with This is not what I thought it was. Like, this is instead a punk rock lifestyle of nastiness. I mean, I'm not saying I wasn't okay with it at the time, because obviously I was.

Samantha 47:14

Yeah, we stuck around for a little bit, yeah.

Angela 47:17

But I think it's so powerful because this is the truth of it. The underbelly is fucking ugly. it is not what it proposes or purports to be. It is not anywhere close when you're on the down low. Of it. It's just, it's not. How was it for you? Like, because the physical involvement was different in some ways. did you experience the dirtiness the reality of these things that we did?

Samantha 47:51

Yeah what I actually love about this clip is you, me, and Brad all describe pretty much the same thing. And there is like an expanse of 25 years between the three of us and all of our involvements in the movement, if not more. And it still came down to the same fucking thing. That the movement does honor and dignity and legacy and protecting white families and being pro white and at the end of the day, it's really just a bunch of people who don't know what to do with themselves. the movement makes stardom feel accessible because the actual reality is the movement is so small and it's such a minority that these podcast hosts have to go to these pool parties across the country and they have to make you feel like you could be the next podcast host, you could be the next Star because they need you in order to keep doing what they're doing. It is not about you. It is not about the future of the movement. It's about these guys having people to leech off of while they just spew their bullshit and quote unquote, just ask questions that lead to the next fucking mass shooting. and also so much of that is because when you are experiencing hardship, the movement still needs your money, whether you lose your job, whether you did whatever. So they will raise you up and give you these symbolic victories of calling you a martyr or a soldier for the cause or whatever the fuck it is so that they can keep taking the very last dollars you have. and do what fill your time with what, what are you supposed to do with it? What are you actually gaining from it? then even when you start to question, you're like, wow, life is so hard. Like this actually sucks. the people in the movement are like, thank you so much for all of the, you know, the real soldiers, the real comrades of this whole thing. And it's like, you're not, they're just using you.

Angela 49:45

like that wouldn't hold weight for me, like I would still resist, you know. thinking about it still, like it gives me the willies, I'm not gonna lie.

Samantha 49:58

Yeah. When you're not ready to hear and face that reality of like, wow, my life sucks and I'm doing all of it for bad ideas. that's embarrassing. That's really hard to come to. And then to leave the movement and be like, oh, and also everyone else knew this and I feel like everyone hates me like, yeah, of course, yeah, of course, you're going to stay in. That makes perfect sense.

Angela 50:20

It's a rough place to be in that.

Samantha 50:24

while we're on the subject, we can bring up our last clip for the episode I like this clip because I think it gives away the game of the far right of what it says it's going to do, but what actually happens. I mean, we thought that we were the best, the brightest, the, the smartest of the whole movement that if anyone was going to, like, actually do something to mainstream it, it would be them. Um, and we would be, you know, as gracious as we can be to you know, white nationalists or whatever they want to call themselves in other organizations, but I mean, behind the scenes, all we did was talk shit about them. About how like, you know, this group dressed like they were all gas station employees. This group, would use terrible language. This group was too violent. They're never going to get anywhere. We were more worried about each other and who was going to get ahead than we were about actually doing anything. You know, and there was a point where the organization that I was in kept saying, they were like, we're going to separate ourselves, like, we're not even going to call ourselves, at the time it was alt right, and they were like, we're not going to say we're alt right anymore, we're this, we're that, we're a totally different thing, we're going to run as Republicans, um, but I mean, I found that also everyone else in the movement hated us, so like, you know, it never made a difference, you know, there was always a like, for every David Duke, there are three people behind David Duke that think they can cut off his head and take over. And then behind him there's the Richard Spencer and behind Richard Spencer there are three other kids in their 20s that are like he's going to get the wall when I take over like. There was, there's never any actual unity. It's just, you know, the whole world is against you. So you kind of have to be like, well, we're all stuck in this corny. So we'll all take, we'll all take the heat, but no one actually liked each other. Um, yeah, that was kind of what it was like everyone. Really just hated each other. but we needed to have good jobs and blend in with the crowd and not actually be too loud about it because we're supposed to identify as these things, but not publicly because then we knew we'd be ostracized. So there was just so much. math and like gymnastics that you have to do in terms of like just surviving in the, in the group. Your best bet was staying anonymous for the rest of your life. And the other option was to be found out and lose your job, your livelihood, your relationships and everything. So like, I don't know when they really thought the ethnostate was going to take over, but there was never a way for it to happen. that's, The reality of it. It's everything that we've talked about in this whole episode about how the far right does not have its shit together, the only platforms that it really has is we don't like immigrants and we're really racist and misogynist. And, you know, sure, the homophobia, the antisemitism, all of that stuff goes into play with it, but at the end of the day, the movement hates itself more than anything. And that's why it keeps destroying itself. That is why it keeps having to rebrand because it gives away the game every fucking time. What are your thoughts on it?

Angela 53:39

I think it does give itself away. Give it enough time and, how is it going to regurgitate this theme again in a new way? Like, have they not yet run out of ways to do this? You're absolutely right. they set up the next target before they're done with the first. there's so much of a production put on about how Sincere they are. It is all just about love. and that's bullshit because if it was There wouldn't be this constant anger aggression violence like nobody's coming after you Go do your thing somewhere and stay away from people if you don't like them go find your island but keep it contained to your island. Nobody wants to hear that shit

Samantha 54:26

which is funny. Cause that's what they want. They want an ethno state, but You can't take what's not yours, and none of this land is yours, so you have to learn to get along.

Angela 54:36

you have to learn to participate in society and follow the rules and the guidelines that everybody else does to get along as humans. Like, you're just over there kicking up dust and starting shit where it's not needed. I There are other humans here that are willing to accept you in as long as you're not trying to kill them or hurt them physically

Samantha 54:56

yeah.

Angela 54:57

and I think that that's That's not judgmental. It's, I've been there. I understand what you're feeling, I do understand why, but not your solution. your solution's not making sense. I think a really good point that was mentioned in this clip is that there's so much Mental gymnastics that has to go into this it no longer seems like an authentic way of living to me if I can't live from what feels good and not like, Oh my God, there's a threat behind every corner that goes a long way in living and not having to live in that way where you're constantly twirling on the monkey bars over here in your brain,

Samantha 55:48

when you're in the movement, you are spending so much time learning the rhetoric, and the bullet points, and the this and the that, No matter how long you've been in there, you are still doing it because at the end of the day, it's not natural. It is not how people are meant to be. You have to keep surrounding yourself with it and learning to finesse your language because it's not real. And if you aren't surrounded by that echo chamber, go a week without it. Log off. see how you fare. You have to keep quote unquote learning you have to keep trying to figure out a better way of say because you're really just trying to make sense of it yourself.

Angela 56:31

Right. And all these things as we go through life, they shape us. And if you're on a path where you're not, getting your needs met, whatever they are they don't have to be the same for everybody, but when you're not getting that, you become angry, you lash out, you don't know how to respond, and I think it's important that we remember this is an opportunity for us to say, hey, I understand The anger I understand like the constant need for drama or something has to be going on But in all seriousness I would challenge anybody who listens to us to try One day different for one day wake up and forget instead of road raging and cutting somebody off, let somebody in smile, open a door for somebody, practice some basic kindness to yourself and to somebody else. And then let me know how you feel at the end of the day. Do you feel better than walking around with that anger and aggression or do you notice that not 100 percent of the time, but a good part of the time when you're willing to cooperate and be like, hey, you have a good day, it feels good. I like feeling good, you know,

Samantha 57:55

Yeah,

Angela 57:56

to me. When I get a smile back or somebody's like, Hey, thanks, that was really nice to say. that enriches me and the person. And I know it sounds cheesy, but I will swear up and down. To whatever powers that be, that I feel so much better at the end of that kind of day than I do in a day where I walk out angry, thinking everybody's out to get me, or this problem isn't solved. Come with solutions. Find solutions. Think critically. Try new things. I would just challenge somebody to do that and tell me how it goes.

Samantha 58:37

I love that. And if you do that, feel free to connect with us and let us know how it goes. But I can say. is that you will always find what you're looking for. If you live like the world is out to get you and you're paranoid, that is all you're going to see because everything is a threat to you. But if you give yourself the chance of like, I'm gonna have a good day today and I'm gonna hold the door open for someone, I bet you they're gonna say thank you. I bet someone else will hold the door open for you. you find what you're looking for. If you want that paranoia, like, go for it. But if you really are trying to live the life that you claim you are in the movement, you're never going to find it while you're in there. The only way you can find peace is by living peacefully and that's not possible in the movement.

Angela 59:26

IT's not. And I think we all know, and secretly deep down all have that feeling of it's either going to be prison or death for me. It's not gonna be I go hate everybody and want everybody else genocided and then I go live happily ever after up on this pretty hill.

Samantha 59:49

no matter what you think if you're in the movement, there is no happy ending. there's no happy ending for any single person that's in there and if you look at all the leaders, they've lost everything and whatever they think they're gaining is nowhere near the life they had before.

Angela 1:00:05

Great job on the top nine, Sam.

Samantha 1:00:07

Thank you, Angela. And also thank you for listening to these and commenting with me and celebrating the New Year

Angela 1:00:16

Absolutely.

Samantha 1:00:17

We are taking a little winter break join us after the New Year with our next episode in our how to series. Thank you so much for talking and I'm positive we will talk again soon.

Angela 1:00:30

Absolutely. Thanks. Bye.