How to Navigate What You Stand For

The Formers discuss what they consider reliable sources, how they learned change their minds, how the movement manipulates a parent's love for their child into white nationalism, and more!

Questions, comments, topic ideas? Send them to:
thedailyformer@lifeafterhate.org

www.thedailyformer.com

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Transcript

Samantha 0:10

Welcome to the daily former, a podcast about how to navigate what you stand for. This episode is going to be about our ideas and how we figured out if they were good, bad, or if they just needed some more examination. With me, I have Lauren, Angela, and Brad. My name is Sam, and the first question the far right couldn't answer for me was, If this was a movement of peace, why are all of our quotes from violent people and murderers?

Angela 0:36

My name is Angela and the first question that couldn't be answered by the far right for me was if women are so important, why are they treated like shit?

Lauren 0:48

So, my name is Lauren. The first question that couldn't be answered from the far right for me was, If I'm not getting a hammer skin patch, why do their stupid ass rules still apply to me?

Brad 1:00

My name is Brad and yeah, the first question that they couldn't answer is every question about why they hate every single person in the world so much.

Samantha 1:12

I had a group chat with women and I had asked that question. I was the women's coordinator for this organization and we had a little group chat and I, I had said did anyone else find it weird that like the 14 words are David Blaine and we call him Dylan, St. But we also say that he's not all right because he never claimed it. I asked those questions and they had basically just said. Oh God, what is it? It was about the message, not the messenger. And that like, you just don't think about. And I was told I couldn't question it anymore. That it was just basically like, that's the long and short of it. it's about the message, not the messenger. And that was the first time where I was like, that's, that's really not good enough for me. And that is what started me going back to everything in a movement. You know, all the weird details of holocaust denial and realize that. Pretty much all of it was bullshit. But what about you guys? Did you guys ever get answers to your questions?

Angela 2:19

I never did this is such a horrible experience. when I first got involved, I was hanging out with a weird mix. And one of the Groups was like it was posse comitatus people. And this one old gross man that tried to like mentor me made this comment one day that was so foul, I will never forget it. He was dating this lady and he was like, I don't know what she thinks, maybe she thinks her pussy's lined with fur. And I was like, oh my god! And at the same time, all these people that are like white women are the future, you know, and I was just like, are you kidding me? But it was just a weird mix. Like I said, I struggled with that question. I was like an undercover feminist that fought against the status quo in the movement. I had to be the rebellious woman that was like, fuck no, not gonna be in the kitchen. So yeah, no answer

Samantha 3:27

Really funny that you referred to someone as a grisled thing, because that's what I That's what I put David Duke as in my phone book. sorry. yeah. What about you Lauren and Brad?

Lauren 3:37

no, I never got an answer to my question. It was brushed off pretty quickly. I'll give you guys a bit more context about it. as far as hammer skin patches are concerned, they can't be given to women. They only do that for guys, and only if you meet, their tenure criteria thing of how you should be. So not all guys get it as well. It's just that the rules apply to everybody else, regardless of whether you have a patch or not. So, for me, I was always the type where I would break the rules I would always ask for forgiveness, not for permission. I'm sure that surprises nobody here. And a lot of the time they were fucking dumb rules, like, stuff that you can and can't do with your appearance. I'm like, okay, well Freg gets my appearance, I'll do with it whatever I please. And I remember my partner at the time pushing back a lot against one thing I wanted to do. And I'm like, listen, if I'm never getting a patch, then why are there rules on me? this makes no sense. But of course I got laughed off because, well, he didn't have an answer for it.

Samantha 4:36

I also really like that all of these groups have very strict rules on appearance as if they're all the bastion of hot couture like really you guys, you guys are going to be the ones that tell us what is acceptable to wear. Okay. But anyway,

Brad 4:52

I partially did get my answer and I know that sounds weird, So the maturity level, if you put it into like a graph, it's a negative,

Angela 5:00

Below average.

Brad 5:03

you know, they're trying to answer, I'm like, so you hate Asians, but like, do you? and they'd be like, well, why would you ask? You're a traitor. I'm like, oh, so we're gonna call each other names. Fair enough. you answered my question, because they can't even really manage an answer of why they hate people. And then, after I left, of course, many years later, I made this documentary. And this is where I get the most feedback I guess I'm a traitor. I'm all these other things, but what I want them to figure out is. That I'm still here, and that they can still work out that they don't hate every person in the world, because it's not possible. Even when I was at the highest point of my involvement, I hated mostly the people who were surrounding me in that group. Not any of the other outward people. Black people, gay people, that didn't even come to mind.

Angela 5:58

No.

Brad 5:58

was the people that were surrounding me in the situation that I was in, that I was like, man, some of these guys are fucked.

Angela 6:05

Yeah.

Brad 6:06

So, yeah,

Angela 6:08

I relate to that a lot because I did more fighting with other white people than I did with any other group of people that I claim to hate. aNd that's a really big. of reality to chew after the fact

Samantha 6:25

did you guys have that thing after you left? Like, I was just kind of sick of white people. Like, I just didn't care for him for a little while. And that's not because every white person is like that or whatever, but you just kind of have this, I don't know, it just gets really boring seeing like the same thing over and over and over again.

Angela 6:44

Days like that, you know, in a lot of situations, I trust. people of color more than I trust white people. I trust women more than I trust a group of white people. it's not like a constant across the board. It really is certain things that we see having the past that we do, I think affect us on deeper levels than the typical person that doesn't have. experience similar to ours.

Samantha 7:13

I was going to say, I want to offer a counter or dive deeper into that because I feel like we make a lot of grand statements on here where we say, like, I don't trust white people are like men, blah, blah, blah. And I just want to reiterate to everyone, we don't actually mean that given the choice we will always choose someone over white people, like, there's, there's days where that's true, there are situations where that's true, but all we're trying to say is that we do not give a shit if you're white or not. We care that you have, thoughtful, informed opinions. that's it more than anything. I just wanted to put that out there and not just be like, by the way, we're self hating white people now. I don't think that's true. I think we're just fucking

Angela 7:52

it's not at all. And if I implied that, that was not my intention. But there are days and situations. I'll give

Samantha 8:02

When we are talking about this stuff, how long were you in the movement before you realized that you needed to start like, critically examining your beliefs?

Brad 8:09

five ish years,

Lauren 8:12

Yeah, for me it was about the same. Five years, I want to say.

Angela 8:15

I want to say about four for me.

Samantha 8:17

And long was it from that point to when you left?

Lauren 8:21

for me it was three more years. Takes a while.

Angela 8:24

yeah

Brad 8:25

sorry, math it's hard. I think it was yeah, another, probably another five or six years. not to say that that five or six years at the end was like, there was a lot of shit that I was doing purposely to fuck up these groups during that time, That kind of resonates though with a lot of people that I talk to that have experiences with being in the far right. I'd be like, so, how gay are you? ha ha, I'm kidding. know, but then they find out, maybe in a year or two, that As it turns out, like, like it just, or it'd be like, Ooh, I'm Jewish, and I'm like, can't be in a white supremacist group anymore. and then it would be A very interesting conversation with the rest of the people that were in that group if you're such a guy who has a radar for Jews and gays how come there were so many Jews and gays in your group?

Samantha 9:16

the I can always tell crowd can't always tell.

Angela 9:20

that would straight up be junk race scientists of the group. It would be like, do you see this line and this, radius of this part of the earlobe structure? No,

Samantha 9:35

set of calibers that he would bring to places. Yeah.

Angela 9:40

no way.

Samantha 9:41

I swear to fucking God. And they, kept a log of people and it was like, what's your blood type, this, that, and the other,

Lauren 9:46

I think I'm a negative, so I don't know what the hell that means for me. in their terms.

Samantha 9:51

that you're not a Nazi anymore is all that means, like, don't worry

Lauren 9:55

cool.

Samantha 9:55

anyway, Brad to relate back to you. Yeah. I got the nickname Helen of Goy because I launched a thousand invites in the movement. When I left, I recorded a lot of people, I sent a lot of recordings to other people that. The people I recorded probably didn't want those other people to hear. There was a lot of careful bridge burning that I did.

Angela 10:17

We're some of those recordings to try to answer your own questions about things to try to, sit there and puzzle it out or.

Samantha 10:25

It started because. The person I was living with kept threatening to kill me and rape me. I was trying to make sure that if they did go through with it, I had proof but then as it went on, I started kind of exactly like Brad was saying, like poking the bear and kind of saying certain things to see what would happen. And as I would listen back through these recordings having to hear this ideology that. In the moment when you're listening to the rhetoric and you're seeing the passion of someone who's talking about their ancestors and white people and they world the world and it was white altruism and all this stuff. And you listen back to it, you're like, oh, this is unhinged. Like we're just drunk. We're drunk on ideology. you kind of realize that none of it made sense. when they would talk about race and IQ, the only piece of literature they have on that is the bell curve. And that was published by a fiction book author because every peer review was like, this is nonsense. So they had to pick and choose what they did. And so when you really look back at, the threads and connect them, you realize that none of it is true. The only thing that is true is that white people won't be the majority in X amount of years, I was just talking to Angela about this, that white people blame it on media and say that it's propaganda, it's not propaganda. It's actually just media catching up to something that's been going on the whole time. Interracial couples have been existing forever. In fact, there would be a lot more if there weren't laws prohibiting them. There's nothing wrong with it. But that kind of arbitrary distinction between people just makes things so much worse.

Lauren 12:09

the interesting thing is, if you look at who gives a damn, only white supremacists do.

Samantha 12:14

when you guys were examining your beliefs, who did you reach out to and, who helped you realize this stuff was wrong? where were the places you went to figure these things out other than like deep within my heart?

Lauren 12:25

For me, actually, it was only really one person who I got super in depth with about any of this, and that was my old therapist that I was seeing at the time. I went to him because this is when I was, newly sober and I needed help navigating this. It's just, we got into everything else on top of that. I remember. The first thing he asked me was, can you, describe the dynamics or, like, the inner workings of this type of shit? Because I'm not familiar, and he really wasn't. So I did, and he's like, these people sound like a bunch of fucking lunatics. Like, he wasn't afraid to speak his mind, and he would be right on that matter.

Angela 12:56

Lauren for me. it was like having to translate a different language every time you try to tell somebody about what you're coming out of, because they don't understand, you know, typical everyday people don't get it. How, when, why, where we got involved and every time I would find myself not getting what I needed because I was so busy explaining what I had been involved with. Does that make sense?

Samantha 13:25

Yeah.

Angela 13:25

But I also reached out to communities. While I was making amends, different communities that I had harmed or people that I harmed that were gracious enough to show me kindness and explain things I didn't understand if I went into experiences that I, didn't know anything about but had held, some kind of prejudice or belief. One example was I visited a few mosques, but I went to one for the first time and, you know, covered my hair and did all the things and was able to ask questions about things I didn't understand about Islam. And They were nice enough to explain why they believed the way they did, why certain things were the way they were, some of their practices, and then it made sense to me when I took the time and was vulnerable enough to say, I don't know about this, and it wasn't even on them to explain it to me, but they were kind enough to, and that made a huge difference

Samantha 14:28

When you were experiencing this stuff, were you hoping to be changed or, were you assuming it would be how you were and, like, really needed to see the proof?

Angela 14:39

I was doing both. In the beginning, I was like, I need to see if I have been right or wrong, Was I wrong about all of this stuff? And as I started to learn, I was pretty hard on myself early on. I felt tremendous guilt because I was learning that I was not just wrong, but vastly wrong. And that I wasn't done learning how to even think as a human. I know that sounds odd to say, but With age comes wisdom, so I can now marry all this experience and book stuff and, things I learned from you all and the space that we operate in

Samantha 15:22

When you guys were going through all of this, did you know what you needed to avoid? Like, I learned very quickly. That I could not ask the leaders of the movement. I couldn't really talk to anyone in the movement, but even taught by the to believe that everything else is propaganda So how did you learn what to avoid and what was a reasonable source?

Brad 15:45

Time was the biggest thing for me out of everything, right? Lauren, you said you went to therapy. I spent some of my time doing that. I spent some of my time speaking with my wife about how our life should look. Not just all the great things that she did for me to help me leave, but the things that we needed to do as people that were just going to survive in regular society, because I had no tools in the toolbox. I was, a lost individual because of 13 years hanging around with these groups. Right? It was kids too. In 2009, I had my daughter. And That whole piece about empathy and learning what that was again, and connection with people, I learned from holding my own baby in my hands, and It wasn't the 14 words garbage anymore. That's going to drive me It's this is my child and I will protect this at all costs and it has nothing to do with because i'm white or because I'm a straight dude or whatever this has because i'm The father of this child

Samantha 16:44

Yeah, this precious thing that never asked to be here and has never done anything wrong. I will go to the ends of the earth

Brad 16:53

Yeah. the movement, used to say crap like we need to fight for a race. We'll, I'll fight, die for this thing. I wouldn't fucking not for a second die for that shit. Are you kidding me? Nope. It's not happening. but that kid any fucking day, any minute, any time of any day, and I think it's bigger because I remember meeting with. Some members of the order when I was newly a dad and going, I'm no longer for this terrorism and white supremacy crap. I'm actually just for the family and kids. And I kind of like had this weird feeling in the back of my head that the ultimatum from my wife was coming because we were actually starting to lose real shit in our life. Like we tried to go on a trip to Hawaii with our baby. And I got declined in the border because I was in a hate group. that taught me about loss and I don't get that back. I don't get back that memory of that crap with my daughter and my wife, you know, but that's okay. we got to move forward and we, I've learned from it, right? But that's the deal though, is that we put so much out there, all this hate and violence and fear and all this crap. But really all I needed was a kid and a supportive wife. And honestly, men do need, women around them or else they're going to Fuck up something somewhere, somehow, some way it will happen. And I was lucky enough to have a wife and daughter around me. when I was leaving,

Angela 18:15

you know, I don't have kids. I have my nephews and my niece and they're, aside from my fur babies, the closest I will ever probably come. And As much as, as an aunt, I'm like, oh my god, I would do anything for them. I will never know what it's like as a parent to have that. and especially that you're willing to share so deeply as a man, like, actual feelings and emotions. We don't hear that a lot. So, thank you

Brad 18:45

you know, in the work we do. We meet a whole bunch of not okay men

Angela 18:49

We

Brad 18:50

I remember one guy telling me, he said. Without you guys, or you, or your organization, I wouldn't have been able to navigate my recovery from drugs and alcohol. we sometimes mean to people. He had nobody else, but he was not okay, and that's why he continued being A garbage human being because he was just not okay generally, but when he found other people that he could be kind of like just flat out. Yeah, like he would cry and crap. And I'm like, I'm not judging you, man, but you know, in those groups. You're getting judged for it. I see Lauren nodding

Lauren 19:29

think of all kinds of words, none of them are good.

Brad 19:31

right, having emotion is something we have to learn about as as dudes that it's okay.

Samantha 19:37

it really makes me feel when you were talking about being a dad. I just kept thinking about all of the people in the movement that, like you said, we're just like, we must protect the movement at all costs, the movement, the movement. And now thinking about it, it's really sad when they have kids and instead of feeling about their kids that way. They, like, misproject it onto the movement and they're like, I'm having kids because of the movement. you should care about your kids because you love your kids, not because you're trying to save white people. It's really sad when you think about that and your kid's going to grow up with such a complex because you're not actually loving them in the way that they need

Lauren 20:19

Two random thoughts on that for you all. I remember asking my mother one time what she would have done if my ex and I had had a kid together, and you know what she said? She goes, I would have called Children's Aid Services right away once I heard that garbage out of their mouth. And I'm like, you know, fair enough, no kid deserves to be taught any of that. Also interesting, because I remember asking my ex this as well, How many people in this movement actually had kids because they wanted to? Not because it was expected of them.

Brad 20:50

that's a really good question.

Lauren 20:53

because the thing is, I get that some people legitimately do want kids that are there. That's nothing new to me, but at the same time, how many people felt pressured into it?

Samantha 21:01

I know of at least two women that did not want kids and, likely did not want the experience of having those children conceived. But they have them and one of them left the movement and now is forever tied to someone who is probably never going to leave the movement and struggles every day with it. should they go public? Should they say something? how are they going to do child support and all of that if they know that she has a history of this stuff? And it's just like really, really sad what people go through in the movement, especially once like The veil is lifted and you realize how bad the movement is that is tough

Angela 21:44

I have a question did you ever worry about, like, my beliefs are going to be wrong again? Or, I have to be extra careful. did you pay particular attention to, how you were restructuring?

Lauren 21:56

For me, yes. I'm just trying to think of how to put this into words. To put it kind of short and simple, though, I would constantly be questioning, does this actually make sense? a lot of the time I would say it out loud, like, when I was alone, because we all know that it can sound a lot different coming out of our mouth than in our mind, kind of thing.

Angela 22:14

For real, I think that thinking more before speaking is always a good idea. But that has been a hard lesson because I'm impulsive sometimes and sometimes the inside voice gets out before I want it to. But then that, leads me into what I did for trying to answer those questions for myself. And a lot of it was Learning from books and, learning about historical things that I didn't know about or actually, you know, learning how to navigate information and how to trust the that I was ingesting in order to restructure my beliefs. In school, I got to learn about what's a good source? What's not a good source? how do you figure that out? You know, instead of home ec, we should have been taught like how to navigate adulting today. But that's, that's something that I've noticed for me is carried over. Brad. I don't know if you felt any of that, but, a big part of my change was learning through academic study how to critically think and, make sure that I was getting in the best sources, incorporating more than one point of view,

Brad 23:32

Oh, man. Like, When I was doing my crim degree, I was at the beginning, I'm like, oh crap. It's like learning how to write essays. It's normal stuff you go through, but then in the upper level courses, I was like, I can finally feel good about where I'm getting information from. there's study upon study upon study on this stuff. And it's not some loosely based junk race science, David Duke quote from 1989. It's an actual academic study that actual paid professors and researchers, have worked on, and it's scientifically done. So, the data is the data, and it was interesting to have, real data,

Angela 24:19

now it's like photos or it didn't happen show me the numbers show me the graphs me the visuals the stats everything you've got on it. That's how I consider my sources, is by the data that backs up what it says. What about you, Lauren? when you're going to read something, what's the first thing that you think of when you're deciding, is this an okay thing to, take information from?

Lauren 24:46

You know, actually, my interest is reading about, dark psychology and true crime, but I have a bunch of books about, humanity and critical thinking and stuff in general, and actually, a lot of the time, like, as I'm reading, it triggers memories and stuff, and that's actually how it registers with me that it makes sense. I know that sounds kind of weird, but that's just how my brain operates.

Angela 25:05

Right on. I get that, too.

Brad 25:07

can I toss in one more point? like you say, you got the critical thinking books, like that help. And then it has helped now for modeling, helping others too, that are coming away from these movements. It's like Coursera, the Coursera model is interesting because there's a whole bunch of different, free courses that universities offer on baseline critical thinking. Like, is this a real source? Is it Wikipedia, like before I would have been like Google and then Wikipedia says, and I'm like, okay, well, that's a good place to start maybe for

Angela 25:40

Right. If you want to gather other sources,

Brad 25:44

Google Scholar is better. I know this sounds so dumb to people who, do research in real life, but it's like we've got to go through this stuff with the folks that we're working with because they're still stuck where we were that, White Jesus came over the Kazar mountains, and he's not Jewish,

Angela 26:02

Right.

Brad 26:02

I'm like, okay we got to work through

Angela 26:05

That's the same school of thought as there was no Holocaust, but 6 million more it's

Brad 26:13

hmm

Angela 26:13

And that's, exactly the point These are tools that we can share that helped us that will now help others and maybe give some people some ideas about how to find sources that they trust, that they respect, that fits their standards, like, is this a fair source? You know, does it give a voice to all sides fairly? Those are all really important things. what about you, Sam? how do you find sources that you trust and respect?

Samantha 26:45

I mean, first and foremost, just because something has you or university after it does not mean that it's a legitimate source. But I do think there are a couple questions that you can ask what is the broad statement of what this thing is saying? What is it asking me to think? What is it asking me to do? And does it harm anyone? and in these things, do they align with what I believe? And there's a world where you are on the far right and you believe those things and those are what you're going to consider legitimate sources, but I also think it's worth noting, like we were talking about earlier with the bell curve. That is the only piece of literature that claims that, and there is an overwhelming amount of studies that debunk it and say that it's wrong, and it's not because of censorship. I think it's this crazy thing where they have this oh so many people you know the Holocaust never happened or IQ and race and it's like there are a lot of white people doing studies in there, and there are a lot of white people that like being white people that are doing these studies. And if they're saying this is a truth or the race and IQ thing is not real. Not that the majority is always right, but when you have 50 strangers that have never met and they're all saying the same thing, then, you know, maybe that thing has some weight to it.

Angela 28:06

It's true. One of the things that I really struggled with earlier on was Being able to articulate what I felt inside, because I kind of like, double judged myself against what does typical society think, but I struggled for a while being worried about, is any like, racism or phobia or something still weighing upon like the way I viewed the world. gosh, it must've taken me years to really build up the courage to trust my own thoughts and opinions and say, is this, something residual from my past beliefs, or is it like a newly formed and informed belief today? Does that make sense?

Lauren 28:55

kind of reminds me of something from Therapy 2. Like, I remember my therapist blatantly telling me, you know, you don't have to like everybody. you can dislike somebody, but just make sure that it's actually, like, for legitimate reasons.

Angela 29:07

Right.

Brad 29:09

I imagine that there is a world that we live in where we will encounter people that we don't necessarily like But we're not ideologically motivated to want to have a fight with them Like what are we engaging in? it's like those videos you watch online on TikTok where there's like these two guys road raging each other and they get out of their cars and they're beating the hell out of each other. And you're sitting there going,

Samantha 29:32

yeah, it would have been a lot faster to just keep driving,

Angela 29:35

Yeah. I, in some ways think because you're a former, because you've experienced rage, you've experienced violence, you've experienced so many things, you're able to leverage who you are as a former to do better than you used to. I think you just described that

Brad 29:55

I think a couple other formers talk about this, turning the darkness into light in that sense of like, that fucking darkness. You don't need to live there. You don't need to stay there. it's way better to go inside your house and enjoy a cup of tea or a beer or whatever and just chill the fuck out than go engage with guys who are fucking raging. Literally. And you know what, they're in pain. Whoever that person is, doesn't matter. They're in pain when they're acting like that. There's something there that they're going through. And I kind of wanted to talk to him, but then I'm like, nah, he's gonna have to come down from there first before he can have a conversation. And that's how far we've come in the sense of, I mean, I don't care for the guy, I'd never interact with him, but like, if he asked for help though, I would. If he said, where do I get help? I would go honestly look up and I'd be like, Hey, here's the place

Angela 30:48

I know you would. That's tremendous It's like forgiveness, almost. You simply do it because you're a human and you recognize the humanity in others, even when they're acting ugly. And that's a huge, like, full circle moment right there to do that. What a great example.

Samantha 31:09

I think two things. One the movement fails to recognize it just because you don't like someone doesn't mean you think they're lesser than you don't like the guy but that doesn't mean that he's not your neighbor. And then also, with what you're asking Angela, I think it even goes beyond what Brad had said where it's like oh bad instances and even when good things happen. They can be activated. I know of a woman who, when she got pregnant, she really had to think about replacing the movement the whole 14 words and having white babies and like, should she have a kid? And you know, isn't this technically what they told her her only worth was. And there was just a lot of stuff to move around and to unpack. And then myself, I was working at a job, and I got this like kind of award where I the most accepting, like the most inclusive employee and you know, half of me was like, you guys have no idea how much this means to me. you have like literally no idea what this means. But then there's also the half of like, do I deserve this with my past? Am I really that inclusive, or am I making up for something almost everything that happens for a little while, you're always examining, like, is it because of my past? Am I being nice to this person because I feel bad that I wouldn't have been nice to them in my past life? Am I being nice to them because they deserve it? there are a few roadblocks that you have to get through

Angela 32:36

you know, what's really awesome too? When you get to a point when you just get to enjoy being nice and having other humans Reflect that which you won't find it everywhere obviously but when you do it's awesome I think I hear you found that in your wife Brad Lauren. Did you find it in your partner?

Lauren 32:58

Oh, I did. He likes to take credit for making me soft, but it was already there. He just brought it out.

Angela 33:03

Sam, what about you?

Samantha 33:05

Yes, I did. Yeah, I think we all found that softness. We all found that, that warmth that we didn't think we could have.

Angela 33:13

yep.

Brad 33:14

that warmth or compassion or, or goodness is something that the movement holistically denies. You're not allowed to have those things. they talk about it, though. They're like, Oh, yeah, we love our kids, we love our wives, we love all this stuff. But then, you'll be in an event with them where they're ringing a bell and having their wives serve them drinks. So, do they really love their wives? I don't think so. Do they really love their kids? Only when it's convenient to talk about how those kids are the next racial warriors for this movement or whatever the hell it is. when you feel the real goodness of it, it's a different deal And you know, whether we're parents or not, it doesn't matter though. Because these are the next generations of potential, amazing human beings that are coming along, right? I think it's much bigger than just having a belief system. I think we're so much more than what our thoughts on the climate crisis is There's so much more to us. And I think if we. Stop reducing ourselves to, those things and put more emphasis on how we're

Angela 34:18

aspect. Absolutely. I'm, I'm with you all the way.

Samantha 34:23

I also just don't want my kids to grow up in a war zone, like all this prep for Rohoa. you're, you're ready for your kids to go out there sacrificing life and limb for what? Something we. No is likely not going to happen in our lifetimes in their lifetimes. it's something we always come back to, which is like, if you're truly happy, you wouldn't be in this stuff. If you truly were living a good life, you wouldn't have to get involved with that stuff. You know, your purpose does not have to be serving your people. or protecting the white race. That's not a fucking purpose. That's. I don't know. That's embarrassing, How do you know when an idea is bad? Like, now that we've been out for a little while, when you come across something, like, oh, that's intriguing, how can you discern between that? Because I'm sure we all have had clients or friends that are formers that are, you know, just always trying to convince us of something.

Lauren 35:18

Usually if I start laughing at it immediately, it's bad. I've just learned to, like, trust my initial reaction to things. Cause, I mean, yeah, there's a reason for them.

Brad 35:28

I think it's about health, your own mental health if you're going to take something on, like, holocaust denial how is that going to assist you in being like a happy person? Cause that's a super dark negative thing, right? So you're going to sit there and take that on because that's really good. It's not though. It's not good for you. And that's how we have to be thinking about things like, are all black people evil? Like when you hear these groups, the white power groups talk about it, they would say, well, yes, they are. Well, for me to be having that. in my mind is mentally

Samantha 36:02

taxing draining.

Brad 36:04

and it's draining. Yeah, It's all those things because they're not all bad and there's no fucking chance.

Samantha 36:10

I think it's something worth noting here that that's what the movement does that the movement is there to infuriate you and make you feel like you're at risk and you're being victimized and everyone wants you gone like that is the whole point of the movement so that you are inspired and moved. To take action and to start that, that Rojoa that they all claim is coming, that no one else wants except white people. recently I've kept coming back to like, the far right manufactures fear and anxiety and problems and it's, it's not real. It's just not real and I'm trying to find a better more gentle way to articulate it but I just I keep coming back to that where I'm just like I cannot believe I was bamboozled

Angela 36:52

Yeah.

Lauren 36:54

Well, did anyone else notice this too? even immediately after you left, if you heard, like, a far right talking point, did you feel uncomfortable or really put off by it, like I did?

Samantha 37:04

yes, like, physically, have to walk out of the room, because it was so uncomfortable. Yeah,

Lauren 37:12

Yeah, everyone gets that feeling differently, I imagine, but it sounds the same across the board. It's because, we know that it's horseshit in the back of our minds.

Angela 37:21

And how damaging and dangerous it is. there are times when I can't even imagine how I was the person I was, because now I see long term ramifications. and consequences for the words and actions and it's tough.

Samantha 37:40

Yeah.

Angela 37:41

It's so important that we're able to be grateful for the things that we have for those moments We label cheesy when we get to enjoy life and be happy and be comfortable and feel safe.

Brad 37:53

on the note, I'm going to share some cheese because you just brought it up. It's, the moment where you're a grown man or a woman or whatever, and you are watching some corny Christmas movie and you cry at the end because you want to, right? And it doesn't matter, anymore.

Angela 38:12

Yeah,

Brad 38:13

and I only say this because it's like in the before times, A, you can't watch corny Christmas movies because they're probably, concocted by this worldwide Jewish thing. Right. and B, God, you can't cry in a movie.

Angela 38:27

No, dude, you can't have any

Brad 38:29

even even if you're happy like, it's okay to be happy and have emotions. And happiness is not synonymous. with these movements.

Angela 38:38

No,

Brad 38:38

It's the opposite. And it's gets a death hold on you eventually. Like, it really does. it really pushes you to places that you didn't know you could get to. So I suggest watch Serendipity or some crap and cry at the end.

Samantha 38:51

Oh, he's even got a movie in mind. I love this. Oh,

Lauren 38:55

or watch something where you know that you will not be able to not laugh at it. So for me, Jim Carrey version of The Grinch. Fucking hilarious.

Samantha 39:03

yeah, I had that soundtrack. Yeah. Toy Story 3. I recently rewatched bangers, bangers every minute. When you're talking about that when you guys were, like, figuring out what you stood for and all that stuff, did you seek this stuff out or was it more of an organic process of dismantling stuff you did believe?

Lauren 39:22

it was a bit of both. I would look for stuff, but I would also randomly come across stuff and be like, Oh, this showed up for me at a good time. Cool.

Brad 39:29

Yeah, same. Mixture of all that. It happens. Embrace it. couldn't embrace it before, now you can.

Angela 39:35

that's right

Samantha 39:37

Was there anything particularly hard to embrace? was allowing yourself to cry, like, Did you have to, like, do the math, for lack of a better term, in your head, or did it just happen?

Brad 39:47

Oh no, there's like, at the beginning it was holding back. You know, because you're not supposed to have that

Angela 39:54

the hardest thing to embrace for myself was me

Lauren 39:59

for me, It was anything that could have been seen as like, quote, soft, but I remember the first time I ever did this, it was in front of my better half when we first started dating. instead of like all the crude, filthy language that I typically use, even to this day, I will admit, I told him get over here and hold my hand. That's about the closest to soft he was going to get from me at the time. But I'm like, you know what? That's definitely a world of difference from what it was with previous ones.

Samantha 40:28

That's really cute.

Lauren 40:29

See, you can mix softness with assertiveness. Get over here and hold my hand. It works.

Angela 40:35

it does

Samantha 40:36

Give me a kiss, babe!

Angela 40:39

Yeah,

Samantha 40:39

the same. I was very I would avoid having needs. Like, I was just so used to fixing everyone else's stuff that I couldn't stand up for myself. I still struggle with it sometimes, but kind of what you said, Angela, part of embracing myself was also realizing that, I had things that weren't my job to give me, like a million kisses every day. And now, now I have people to do that.

Lauren 41:01

like children or pets are good for that. Bringing out softness.

Samantha 41:06

which also makes me feel how much more fucked up the far right is that you co opt children in the 14 words as a way to manipulate people into joining where it's like, oh, you're saving the children, you're giving the children a future. And it's like, you're destroying them. They don't have a chance at life.

Lauren 41:28

I'm sure y'all have heard similar conversations before. how to teach children the ideology or how to introduce it to them and teach them how to be. I'm like, okay, this is pretty much a fucking manual of how to get CPS called on you.

Samantha 41:41

Well, there was that, that Facebook group that recently, like, a few months ago was, found out for being Nazis, and where you're learning letters, they would have Hitler quotes and stuff on the pages for you to trace over, Also the fact that you have to go so far out of your way to like, put Hitler into everything, or like swastikas and everything, that's really LARP y.

Lauren 42:00

and you know, thinking about it this way, if I actually did do the triad wife thing, there's no way I could possibly get these words out of my mouth. all right kids, here's who we're gonna learn to hate today. Like, there's no way that would have been done.

Samantha 42:13

Yeah, I, you know, this is, I am pretty close to a trad wife and that will never fly. All right. Thank you guys so much for talking. This was a good conversation. I still think there's going to be so much more for us to talk about when it comes to ideas and critical thinking. We should probably do a mini series about it. who knows what the future holds, but thank you guys so much for talking and we will talk soon.

Angela 42:37

Thanks. Bye

Lauren 42:38

Thanks.

Samantha 42:39

y'all.