How to Manage Fear and Paranoia

The Formers discuss feeling safe versus being safe, and how to shake that paranoia that someone is always looking for, or watching, you. 


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Transcript

Angela 0:13

Welcome to The Daily Former. How to Manage Paranoia and Fear. And joining us today are Sam, Lauren, Brad, and myself. I'm gonna be doing a little more talking because Sam is sick and is chasing her voice.

Samantha 0:29

Thank you, Angela. To start off, as you can hear, I am pretty sick. but that will never stop me. So to get this kicked off my name is Sam. And the first time I tested my fear was when I took the train in Philadelphia, two years after I left the movement,

Angela 0:46

My name is Angela and the first time I truly tested my fear was when I bought my first home.

Lauren 0:53

My name is Lauren and the first time I can think of that I tested my fear was when I started doing EMDR therapy.

Brad 0:59

my name is Brad, and the first time I tested my fear was just the whole idea of rejoining society in a positive manner and just being a contributor out there in the world.

Samantha 1:11

rejoining society, what exactly do you mean by that? like, what are some things that you did that, were really nerve wracking for you?

Brad 1:19

it could be anything as simple as, like, going into a restaurant and not acting like a total weirdo and like sitting with your back against the wall so you can see the whole place or riding public transport and not judging every single person that's on there with you going to school in my 30s, was a tough one trying to, do that. a lot of these are like comfort zones that there is no way that we wanted to even go to anyways. And that's what the movement kind of like keeps you safe because you don't have to feel weird about these things. Like a regular thing, like going to university for a regular person is a very normal thing, but going and sitting in there with all your judgment and all the thoughts you used to have and all that kind of thing, trying to work through that crap. I know Angie probably went through the same thing, trying to manage those things You're an outsider, because in my case, I was publicly sort of like doxxed, so the public knew about who I was. you don't know if you're sitting next to somebody who like, knows about you.

Samantha 2:19

Yeah, actually, interesting that you were talking about public transportation. That was my big test of fear, but it wasn't because I was judging other people. It was because so much of my involvement took place online, but I did real life things and I was quote unquote public within the movement, like people in the movement knew who I was, but I didn't know what anyone else looked like. And I was afraid to take public transportation because what if, Someone, it was in Philadelphia, like I had moved to Philadelphia briefly and it was like, what if someone here knows what I look like and they're going to follow me home or attack me or dox me or something like that. I was always afraid of being vulnerable. To attack for a really long time. Which sounds like Angela buying your house. what about that was a test of fear?

Angela 3:06

Having my name publicly on legal paperwork that, you know, anybody could access for A lot of years after I disengaged, I was petrified to live on my own because I didn't want all the bills in my name. I didn't want anybody to track me down. But I also think that there's a really big difference between when I was getting out. It was a longer time ago than you and I, I think some of the fears are the same, but they show up differently for some of us, if that makes,

Samantha 3:44

No, absolutely. Well, it's interesting. I got a car when I was leaving and I never registered the car. So I had a car I bought in Virginia that had fake New York license plates, but my driver's license was from South Carolina, and then I was living in Pennsylvania, and exactly what you said, I did every, I would live in places where I wasn't signing a lease, my name wasn't on the bills, I kept the paper trail to as minimum as possible, or apparently I just tried to divert you with every possible location I could come up with, but yeah, I, I also find it to be interesting because those are all publicly accessible, but I guess now because I was there and saw the tactics of how the far right looks things up and will be pretty fucking ruthless in some ways, I was really nervous that it would be very easy to find me. but before we get to all of that Lauren. EMDR, yeah, I can't imagine how scary that must be, but do you want to give more reason for it?

Lauren 4:39

Yeah, I mean, I should get this out of the way first that I was voluntarily doing it. I did ask my therapist if we could do it because he had his credentials to do so. So he was describing it ahead of time, and he said, basically, we're gonna work on, rewiring your brain as best we can, and, to fix those sort of, broken connections. I'm trying to remember his exact wording for this, but he's like, okay, so basically, as we're going through all of this, you're gonna relive bad shit. that's what scared me, so I think for me it was more like fear of my own past or revisiting it than it was about anybody else who I may have associated with at the time.

Samantha 5:18

That's still totally a valid fear. what ended up happening? Like, you don't have to go into too much detail, but I mean, did you end up confronting your past in that way? In a scary way? Or was it okay?

Lauren 5:30

You know, I actually found when I was reliving the memories, it wasn't the really intense visual flashbacks and stuff that you would imagine when you're doing this, I found I was kind of reliving it, but like from more of a distance, so that surprised me a little bit, and I can see that because You know, that actually kind of helps you reprocess the entire thing better, I found. And I was also a little bit surprised, too, about just how, everything connected in my life. you get the idea put into your head from whatever event it is, and then stuff just keeps, like, reaffirming that. So it isn't about just going back to one single event. that was also kind of interesting to me. But the big thing, actually, with me was trust. because I actually have to tell my therapist what the hell I was reliving at the time so that he could guide the session properly. And for me, I'm like, man, do I want to tell you this right now? Like, what I just remembered just had a fear of judgment. But there again, I also had to remember that he was a pretty rough around the edges guy himself, and he could take it.

Samantha 6:31

yeah, that's interesting. to kind of change gears a little bit because I feel like we can kind of all get to everything we were just talking about in this conversation. When we all first left, what was the first thing you did to, manage your fear and paranoia? what did you do to, protect yourself?

Brad 6:49

Embraced that shit.

Samantha 6:51

What do you mean?

Brad 6:52

I don't know if this makes sense, but like, You can't live in constant fear. it will destroy your soul. So I just embraced it. So, so what people don't like me walk in that classroom and sit right in the front. And if people know who you are, they know who you are, whatever you got to do, what you got to do in life, right? it's still hurt a bit to try to do those things like to be there in that world. But if you're going to keep moving forward, you can't be overrun with stuff, right? you got to kind of embrace that stuff and just move on, I know it sounds simple, you have to face the idea too, that there could be consequence for your actions. in the, in the movement. So if it's cops, you might run into somebody from the old days, whatever, those things might happen.

Angela 7:34

Yeah, I have a really deep sense of fear, because the time or era, whatever we want to call it that I was involved was much more physically violent. Then now, and when I came out of prison, I went right back into the area that I was recruited in, like my stomping ground. And it was petrifying. it was an exactly what you said. It got me to a point where I had to sit there and say, okay, realistically, these are possibilities. I probably have a little more of a chance. To have some of these things happen than a typical person that wasn't involved in what I was and then Found steps to start chipping away at that and making myself less fearful Security systems You know, the internet and technology has grown vastly since I was involved. I didn't have to deal with doxxing or anything like that, but now, restricting public information on your social media, like don't let everybody know what town you live in things like that. I always thought of it as like, if you're going to find me fine, I'll be ready. But I'm not going to drop breadcrumbs everywhere for you to pick up if there is a you out there. But there really are a lot of things that we can do. Therapy has helped tremendously to start digging into the fear and the paranoia and what that means in the broader picture for my mental health and my life. like I still sit with my back to the wall too, Brad. I think that's something that probably is going to be a lifelong habit. But not just because of the past, also because, the world's fucking crazy right now. You never know when shit's going to pop off.

Samantha 9:23

Brad, when you had said, you can't live in fear forever, like, I certainly fucking tried to. I spent, the first two or three years, I don't, I'm sure you guys remember, I was just out of my mind with paranoia and anxiety. When you say embrace it, I mean that's hard. That's really hard to do. You can't just leave and be like, okay, I accept this fear. I let it wash over me. I'm moving on. Like, what did you, did you meditate? Did you pray? Did you join a support group? there's no way I could have just been like, well, I guess I'm a freak today and forever. I'll just mosey on to wherever the, you know, the supermarket.

Brad 10:02

you know, I became pretty cynical. I'll be honest, just with life in general. yeah, I'll own that shit. When I sit with my back to the wall in the restaurant and just be like, yep, I'm this fucking weirdo here in the restaurant, because I'm not scared, I'm just doing stuff to make me feel better. And yeah, it kind of falls into one of the types of fear. I forget which one there's so many different types, that feeling of, I don't want to let that shit on me. that movement had its grasp. my life, but it's not going to anymore. So I wanted to push that away, but yeah, there are the realities of the world and the way I lived my life, even before the movement was pretty, it was pretty bad too. it was kind of like, that stuff kind of taught me how to deal with. The bullshit, right? you know, whatever comes will come. But I also kind of feel like whatever you put into the world, you're going to get that too. So if you walk around like a paranoid, crazy person, people will pick up on you and they will treat you that way. there's physical elements that affects your, physiology, being afraid of something, or you don't want to go to certain places. Like, it can like overtake you. And then, of course, that affects your mental stability too. Like you're saying, Ange, like you went right back into the warp zone of where you were living your life before, that's a lot to take in, but it's facing it so you're kind of owning it in that sense, like I went back to a few of the areas that I hung out, and just like sat there and had a coffee and shit and I'm like, well, this is a dumb idea But hello, I'm here and nothing happened those days because I wasn't acting like the gang member anymore I was just a dude grabbing a coffee

Samantha 11:34

I think you find what you're looking for and I think that's why like I just decided to live in Zen. that's really fucking hard in the beginning. I made peace with death. every morning I would wake up and be like, today's the day that I could be found or I could do this or I could do that. But I wanted to find reasons to live, and I at least knew in my heart, you know what, I'm at least going to die as someone trying to get out of it, and not making it worse. But as time went on, then I kind of realized I could die today because I get in a car accident. I could die today because someone decides to shoot up the place I was working at. I could die for so many reasons. I could slip in the shower and break my neck. anything could happen. And once you realize that It's the difference between fear and risk. Fear is always real, but risk is not always imminent. And that's something that I really had to, embrace and appreciate.

Brad 12:23

Like, what do you actually do to deal with this shit? I definitely didn't use faith, but you do need to take moments for yourself to sit, think, let that shit

Samantha 12:33

yeah,

Brad 12:34

and, and, think it through. Do whatever you have to do. Some people I know do sit there and pray and if that works? Cool. Do that. But that's that time for you. That makes such a big difference to just like would categorize things. In my head of you know, where am I going today? What should I be thinking about?

Samantha 12:53

yeah,

Brad 12:54

some of the safety plans that we talked to our, clients and the exit program about, it's just kind of like street smarts. like, should I be doing this? Probably not.

Angela 13:05

you really have to think on the fly a lot. Like, I'm gonna hit you with a little context and experience and then ask a question attached to it. Probably in like the first three or four years I was out of prison I was out on a New Year's Day with some friends. I had come out, you know, they were gay, I'm gay. We were in a

Samantha 13:28

You're gay?

Angela 13:30

Oh my god, what? I mean, but my friends looked very visibly gay, and we're standing at the photo develop place in there, and I mean, the hackles on me were just like, oh my god, like that feeling that someone's watching you. Or like something is about to happen out of the corner of my eye, one of the dudes that was involved in one of my cases was still obviously very involved and he was just walking behind me, boring a hole in my back within six feet And I was like, Oh my God, I might have to throw down with this dude, right in the Walmart. But that was the adrenaline feeling, when that goes away and you start thinking about the reality of your situation, this is where it comes to a question for you, Brad, when I had experiences like that, they hit me at a core trigger point that I needed help to not go into a really dark place. those were times that I had to find alternatives. To remind myself exactly what we've been saying, like, I don't want to live my life looking over my shoulder. that's not a way to live. But at the same time, like you were saying, there's an element of instinct and street smart built into any experience we could have around this. So the question for you is when you went. To those places or even out with your family. have you run into people that have been aggressive? And if so, how did you process that for yourself? It

Brad 15:14

of story time with Brad here, but I'll keep trying to keep it short. But yeah, the one time that really stands out for me I pulled into this pub and I'm not going to say where, but I know the area This is probably the wrong time to go there. Cause it's right after work. And I know the guys go there. I know the types of people that go there. it's a shit mix of gang members and white supremacists and whatever else. So I go in, sit down, order my beer. I look down the bar and there's a guy there and he's, clearly a dude that I got to think about. So, I'm just minding my own business and I go outside and I look around, see if there's any other cars that I recognize or whatever. Stupidly he has a Sticker that says his group crap on his car. So I'm like, okay, that's his car i'm just like trying to figure out my way out if I have to and He walks up to me and he's like aren't you so and so and i'm like Don't ask me questions that you already know the answer to I had to go right back into the mode from those days. And he said, where are we going to take this? And I'm like, well, you only know two ways to figure out things. So you tell me. And all of a sudden the bartender walks up and says, Hey, is there a problem here? Do I need to call the cops? well, I don't like cops. I'm thinking in my head and this guy sure doesn't like cops at all. So I'm like well, maybe this time you should. And I kind of chuckled and off. They go, Nothing happened, but that was a fucking awkward situation that I didn't want to be in. So, I took note of all the surroundings. I did all those things that I normally would have done. But usually that would have ended in a fight, 100%. that's just the way it should have probably gone, or would have gone. But because I left this group and this crap behind, I think things happen again for those reasons. To help you along your way. I had had some bad stuff at the beginning of when I left, but this was later on down the road trying to get back to normal or whatever that means. So I think the world had my back that day. I don't know if that answers your question But

Angela 17:18

you know, I think in those situations, I am still learning about myself and my own reactions. And that's where I'm able to test a lot of my changes. Early on, it was like you said, that initial instinct to revert back to the same behavior, to be physically and aggressively defensive. But then to be able to sit back and look in that, in retrospect, and figure out, how do I mitigate this feeling? How do I do something different than I used to do? Because, obviously, that's not how I want to live anymore. It's not productive. So, you did. Answer it. I appreciate it.

Brad 17:59

if we're committing ourselves to not violent lifestyles We have to commit ourselves to not violent lifestyles. So the routine in my head would have been why not just fight this guy? But then the other routine in my head is no, maybe do call the cops this time. Why not? What the hell? I'm not doing anything wrong. I'm there for a beer, But this guy's trying to start shit. So fuck him, right?

Angela 18:21

Yeah,

Brad 18:22

how you got to be in that sense, right?

Angela 18:24

taking care of you at that point instead of investing your time, energy, everything into this idea that isn't real So yeah, it does. It makes sense.

Samantha 18:35

you know, I find that to be really interesting, the idea of a public confrontation, because when I had left, I sometimes wonder, or I would worry about, if someone saw me on the street, instead of, like, trying to, take it to the street and, fight, they would video me. And it would go viral in the far right circles. And it would be, you know, this fat bitch, or, this attention whore left the movement and now look at what she's doing. And no matter what I was wearing, no matter what I looked like, it would always be that I'm now disgusting. And they would probably try and find where I live and do all that stuff. But At the end of the day, I would probably just try and turn around and be like, Hey, I work for life after hate. Now, if you wanted to come hang and then leave, that's all you can do, you know? Yeah, pretty much.

Angela 19:19

if you think about it, some law enforcement officers are starting to be more informed about the kind of things we are involved in and the tactics, whether it's an intimidation tactic or just an in general, we're going to go out and start some shit. And it really depends on who the law enforcement is. what agency are they with? Who's the person I'm dealing with? But I'm in general like that. I would say 95 percent of my life, I'm like case by case basis, we'll see what happens.

Samantha 19:49

Yeah. it's weird that I want to make an exception for the phrase ACAB when that means all cops. Like I don't even watch Paw Patrol because I think that's copaganda But I think you're right and I think there are cops that go in because they're like I want to be a good one, I want to uphold the law and help people and do all this stuff and it's training, it's the systems that are in place, it's the incentives that you're given in that job, like I'm not going to blame just the person on this, there are absolutely total assholes that are cops, You know, when I left and after I went public for the first time, I was approached by three different branches of the FBI and I was asked questions and I was given the opportunity to be friendly in my relationship with them and information that I, I wanted to give

Angela 20:35

I've had the same experience. When I got out of prison, I was finding FBI business cards in my door when I'd get home from work. I just recently had a conversation with one of my roommates that was another example of law enforcement knew he got out. So they started hitting him up. Hey, are you willing to do this and this? And that's I think that's antithetical to what we try to do. You know, we had to offer this safe space and I really felt like they were just trying to take advantage of me like they didn't view me as a human. They were like, Oh, it's a former Nazi. let's send her right back in there. And who cares? And it was really, jarring to experience that. Like when I started speaking and attending events, I was having people from the ADL in places contact law enforcement and be like, did you know she's out now? And she's attending these events. When current events would happen, something big happen, with some character in the movement, the FBI would show up. Do you know anything about this? And I'm like, listen, I've done these years in prison. I have been out for this long. Have you seen any activity? I mean, it's really hard. There's some shitty ass law enforcement, but then there's some that are thoughtful and willing to treat me like a human being Even when I didn't deserve it,

Samantha 21:59

I sometimes think cops are helpful. I most times don't, not because I think every cop is the worst human being, but because cops are often deployed for situations that is not appropriate for them to be deployed.

Angela 22:14

not therapists,

Samantha 22:16

Yeah, if someone is outright in my house with a knife to my throat or something like that, sure, call the cops. I don't care. But if there's a mental health situation or someone is, high on drugs or something like that, I'm going to try and call a medical professional or a mental health service. You know, carry on some Narcan or something like that, when it comes to leaving, I was convinced I did a criminal act and I did not. I've had many people look over all of my life in the movement and everyone's like, no, you were just a dick.

Angela 22:49

Just a typical asshole, not an

Samantha 22:51

yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't even say typical. I was a very shitty asshole. but I say all of that to say that, look, if you committed a crime, part of Accountability is accepting that you, you did that bad thing. And I'm not saying that you should turn yourself in. Oftentimes there, you know, there is a lot of over sentencing for things that aren't necessarily congruent with the crime. But when it comes to law enforcement, it's a case by case basis, in my opinion. Lauren, do you have any opinions on this? I know that you're probably a little closer to it than we are.

Lauren 23:26

Yeah, for me it is a case by case basis. I've met good. I've met bad. I've met all the ones in between.

Samantha 23:33

yeah. I feel like cops are also don't really get how to handle situations like this, and I think it's good that we've had The ability to work with law enforcement on occasion to inform them the people you think are the bad guys are not always but yeah, when it, when it comes down to having a rap shoot, Angela, this is something that you kind of in a roundabout way touched on, but is it safer to obscure yourself or to be more visible? Angela, you talked about buying a house and making yourself publicly accessible through records. What about us being public in media? Do you guys regret speaking out? We all have had clients or we all know formers that have spoken out that haven't spoken out. How do we navigate that or how do we figure out which is the better path for us?

Lauren 24:19

For me, it's been interesting. as far as speaking out I can't really remember a time where I regret doing it. I've never really had any bad feedback or backlash over it, thankfully, and hopefully it stays that way. One thing I did notice, though, and it was pretty interesting, was I used to get messages and stuff all the time from former affiliates from when I was in the movement. I guess just trying to convince me to come back in the movement, or saying, hey, as if I wouldn't know where that conversation's going. But that actually stopped after my story had gone out on the internet. And I don't really have, like, a direct answer for this, but I'm kind of speculating it's because Oh fuck, she's public now. it fed their paranoia almost, if that makes sense.

Samantha 25:02

Yeah, yeah, you become untouchable, you become, not exiled, but they can't trust you anymore because first and foremost, because they all think they're so important that every journalist is like, I need to know about, what's this person's morning routine? they don't give a shit about most of you, to be honest with you. we all came public. In different ways. I'm pretty sure how was yours, Angela? You've talked about it before, but I mean,

Angela 25:26

I hadn't even considered being public and it kind of fell in my lap in a little bit of an appropriate way,

Samantha 25:34

it like your your parole officer, right?

Angela 25:37

Yeah. When I got out of prison. She asked me to address a criminal justice class she was teaching at a university. And at the time I was like, Oh my god, do I have to because she's my probation officer like what if she gets pissed off. if I don't do it, and then it was kind of cathartic being able to sit there and say, this is what I was involved in. This was, how I got there, at least how I thought I got there at that point in time, this couple decades ago. It was weird, but once I started doing it and interacting with people, it gave me a real sense of healing and peace because I was able to interact in communities that I'd actually harmed and to have people accept me back into that strengthened me. To know there are people that will accept me and treat me like a human and give me a chance to show that I'm not that hateful person that I was, and that I, I can be different. I can live different. But it was also really weird because. There were no other women, speaking when I started speaking. It was really difficult to navigate some of the tough topics that we still have a hard time navigating. for example, we tiptoe around gender issues. For various reasons and back then I felt limited like what's okay to say what's not okay to say and it was still very much in the beginning of my whole process, it definitely changed my path in life and set me on the path that I have been walking, but it wasn't expected. I didn't seek it out. And once it landed, though, it just, okay, this is what, I'm supposed to be doing. But again, it was very different when I was involved, AOL dial up wasn't even a thing when I first disengaged. So I didn't have the fear that more recent. Defectors have about being doxed about the public aspects, the internet, it was more the paranoia of running into someone face to face. Now it's a different story though. Now I have to integrate all those fears and manage them.

Samantha 27:58

for myself when I left, obviously when you're in the movement, it's encouraged that you get sock accounts. so I deleted a bunch of those. I saved whatever I felt like I needed to save, deleted them, changed all of my normal life email addresses too. I changed all of that stuff. And I did mainly because I'm dramatic, but I burned most of my clothes and things that I had while I was in the movement that were like specific to the movement. I burned all my clothes and stuff, like I said, A, because I'm dramatic, and B, because, I had a specific look while I was in there. I went out of my way to dress a certain way, and I that's no longer my life. That's no longer who I am. I don't want anyone to recognize me so easily. What did you guys have to do to, give yourself a little bit of peace of mind?

Lauren 28:43

actually, I did the same thing. I burned a lot of the books and a lot of the clothes and shit from that time, but it was less about being dramatic and more about, this is fun. So spiritually, I saw it as a very nice cleansing, and it really was. And I also took pictures of it. still proud of that to that day. But I think the biggest thing for me actually was getting the tattoos covered up. Just because, like, you wear those, right?

Samantha 29:06

Yeah. was your process in that? Did you pick the most meaningful tattoos to cover up first? Or was it just whatever the most obvious, like on your hands and neck first?

Lauren 29:16

I got the one on the side of my neck fully laser removed, so that went first. Then we did the shoulder, and then the leg, and then my back. So basically we went from most visible to least visible.

Samantha 29:28

Okay. What about y'all

Brad 29:30

Still stuck at the book burning.

Angela 29:31

do a book.

Samantha 29:32

the irony of the book for me.

Angela 29:34

Yeah, you know, when I went to prison, my family discarded most of my movement, anything, my clothing, my boots, my, my jackets, my everything, photos. I came home to very little and Like, I've never been stylish. You guys see how I dress I've always just been kind of low maintenance and I was skinhead chick, like how hard is it? You fucking shave your head. you know, I dress more like the guys than skinhead girls. I couldn't fight in skirts. I mean, I could, but. You never know what was going to happen. And it was like have you ever played the Sims where you just get plopped in there and you're naked and you got to come up with a whole look who am I, what am I allowed to wear? What do I like to wear? I have burned things. Like we filmed a whole documentary with a bunch of us burning books. Pieces of clothing, photos from back in the day It didn't give me any relief or anything, it felt just, dramatic for the filming.

Samantha 30:38

What did you do for peace of mind to feel safe? Like, for myself, I, I would get a job that I would only work at daytime so that I wouldn't have to worry about, what does the night look like, if someone's sneaking behind me or whatever. I did weird things like that. What did you guys do for, your own idea of safety?

Brad 30:57

Can I just loop back into the stuff thing for a second? Because it's kind of counterintuitive I kept some of it

Samantha 31:04

Oh, interesting.

Brad 31:05

to remind myself I have this little box that I keep, keepsakes of different times in my life. That was a time in my life. Am I proud of it? No. I did take a lot of stuff that I had, put it into a garbage bag, and dumped it in the bin and didn't think about any of that stuff ever again. I kept, a little few things just to remind me this was you at one point. Same with the tattoos. I have lots of cover ups, but I've kept a few just to remind me that was you.

Lauren 31:35

I was going to say on the safety bit, I feel like the routine was a big one for me. So when I used to work in scaffolding, we would work the weirder shifts. it wasn't 7 to 3 every day. And the fact that I was on a new job site literally every day, I feel like also kind of helped me with this. So I was doing what a lot of people recommend where, you're varying up your routine. But I didn't even realize I was doing that at the time, so maybe the fact that my job was that unpredictable actually kind of helped me a little bit, because like, no one could really guess where I was.

Samantha 32:04

Yeah, actually, that's a good thing. I totally left the field I was in and I started working at a Target just because I was like, everyone dresses the same, every Target looks the same, if anyone took a picture of me in a Target, it would be harder to find which Target it was, I really went hard on all these weird details. But even beyond that, like, security cameras, did anyone get that? web security teams, was there ever overkill when you look back? Were you ever like, that was extra?

Angela 32:35

Some of my living situations, like my last house, I lived With a fence and a gate to get in the whole property, but also live behind privacy fences behind that and cameras everywhere. there have been some pretty paranoid. Episodes over the years when I've been contacted by certain people. It's freaked me out so much that I've had panic attacks I do a lot of. different things to not make it so easy to find me. I usually never use a current photo on social media or profiles or anything. In my head, I tell myself I'm staying a step ahead of anybody that might want to identify me. So there's things like that. I pay for a service to delete my information from the internet. I don't think it's overkill. I think it's appropriate given what I've done for the past few decades and the work that we do now. But at the same time I have a chip on my shoulder. Sam, I know you've heard me say this many times, but I don't bullshit. I don't try to recruit people out of the movement, I allow myself to be vulnerable and to share my experiences and thoughts. And I haven't hidden anything from the beginning since I came out. And so I'm pretty much like, come at me, see if you can, find something to knock me for. It may be dangerous to do that in this day and age, but that's my basic opinion of it. come at me, bro. Do what you gotta do.

Samantha 34:10

I know in the beginning, I felt like I not that I had a lot to hide. but there's a lot of shame and a lot of guilt and a lot of if I give too much information, then I'm giving myself away. But it's been really nice to have a community of people where it's like, the more information I give, it's actually the more people relate to me, which really cool. And now if someone Decides to go out of their way and, load up the gun and put gas in their car and show up to where I live and go through all of that. I don't know, man, I'm sorry that you didn't have anything better to do.

Angela 34:41

I do overkill stuff Like there's various, Implement behind my front door, so, know, I don't know, every time I try and think about it, it's like, I've, I've been safe, nothing has happened. So every time I try to think about, what's overkill, it's like, I can't say it because it all made me feel safe at the time, and nothing has happened. Maybe it was overkill, but I did need it for my own peace of mind in that moment. want to clarify, like, I don't think that there's like whole groups or a whole movement out there that know me, It's more worrying about the one offs that get a hair up their ass, that feel hopeless, that are like, I'm going to go do this and that's going to make a splash. That's more what I worry about,

Brad 35:28

That's why I always keep it real and put it out there that we all might be law enforcement. use it as a diversion program for those people who do want to do dumb shit. Who knows who we really are?

Samantha 35:40

I mean I hate to instill fear and paranoia in the groups, but I mean, how many people when they were on trial for J6 or Charlottesville or whatever did we find out were informants or working with law enforcement? likely. If we're not cops, we're talking to them, you know, I'm not sitting here saying that I'm giving away trade secrets of the international Nazi cabal, but

Brad 36:00

That's a conspiracy theory in itself.

Samantha 36:04

not a conspiracy theory. I can prove it. But I remember being in the movement, I was so afraid of everyone else. And just like the movement will keep me safe. And then when you leave, you kind of realize oh no, the movement was the threat the whole time. Antifa exposing me and me losing my job does not threaten my life. The movement will actually try to kill you. Well, you know what? That's not necessarily true. That's, that's traumatic. But the movement will go out of its way to make things really difficult in a really scary way for you. You guys have to worry about online offline stuff like your SEO, do you guys worry about that? That's like a very common thing now. I can't tell you how many people were like, Sam, you should just make yourself a website and do X, Y, and Z because of social media presence and this and that. And like, I've grown up on the internet.

Angela 36:52

I've learned stuff over the years, I think we all have about how to better navigate. Life in general, but I've taken, personal photos offline things that I just didn't think were a risk to anyone else before like a picture of me with my family, or, you know, things like that. I try to pull all of that information down. These days, the way I operate because of my past. I try to give people the opportunity to say I don't want to be connected to you publicly Like My siblings I won't even friend on Facebook because I don't ever want them linked to me those are basic things that I've taken offline. I won't do things like local reviews. I never state my location unless I've already left,

Samantha 37:43

I do the same. every place that I lived in. I try to do local sports. Typically it's usually minor league baseball. And so I will only wear shirts or paraphernalia publicly or like on recordings and stuff if I don't live in that place anymore. when we are talking about the safety of where we live and stuff like that, let's talk about social networks. I, could never really figure out when and when not to tell people about my involvement in terms of safety. I kind of always knew and I was always able to catch the vibe of if I want to date with someone or if I'm dating someone, when is it safe for me to tell them so that I know if they reject me it's for a fair reason and not just because of whatever. But when I have really paranoid days and I'm talking to my husband. I don't know what to tell him. Hey, it's improbable. That's something that'll happen, but it's not impossible. how do you keep a gauge on how much danger you're actually in and what do you tell people?

Lauren 38:46

me, actually, this one has never failed me. It's whenever I feel comfortable with the person. That's when I'll tell them. Because for me, like, as I figured out, if I'm not comfortable around somebody, typically there's a good reason for that. So I'm like, okay, that's enough of an indicator for me.

Brad 39:03

I kind of treat this as it as the conversation we were having before, like, now the world, they don't have to take me for who I am. But I am this person, though. that's part of who I am. But I was also just talking to somebody yesterday about how important it is. To not have that former label when you're Angela King. Cause you're not a former anymore. You've been working for three decades and helping people

Angela 39:27

do, I'm not that old.

Samantha 39:31

Oh. Well,

Brad 39:34

fine. I know, I know you're 30. we've established this before,

Angela 39:37

Right, right, we're gonna go with that.

Brad 39:40

we'll go with that. Sorry for the ageist remarks. Anyways moving on. I think the thing is it's just so hard to. To navigate sometimes when, when there's these labels that are concocted by others, and then we're supposed to be these things in our work silos, but then when you're trying to tell some person that you meet, you know, I was doing that. Like, why do they need to know if they want to go and find out and go look you up and that stuff and then make judgments of you and then whatever

Angela 40:06

Let me make sure I have tissues available. being gay, I used to hurt gay people. I used to say horrible things, promote horrible ideas, I always feel this responsibility to let people know, because I feel like they deserve to be able to make a decision about if they feel safe. With me or not. And I cannot overstate how exceedingly difficult it is to navigate things like dating, meeting people and having to make those decisions every time. Like, you don't want to meet somebody and be like, but let me unload all this baggage on your doorstep. But at the same time, there comes a point when if you start to care about somebody, you want them to be Do you want them to know you? And as scary as it may be, make that decision for themselves, like you're worth staying in my life or pursuing rather than just being like, Oh, my God, I could never, date somebody like you because of what you used to be. So it's a really tricky, fine line with some of those situations.

Samantha 41:20

I mean, I remember in the beginning, I was really nervous that I would be, found by them and hurt by them. And if there's someone that I'm hanging out with a lot or entering a romantic relationship with, they should know that there is an extraordinary exception for my safety. It's not just, I eat a lot of candy, there's a point in time where I know these people. are not my biggest fans and they actively root for the bad things to happen to me. I think you should let other people know that that is a judgment call that a, they should be able to make if they want to be in your life because of that. And B, they should be prepared that they could end up becoming. a casualty in whatever it is that someone wants to start. Also, it would be very weird if someone approaches you from your past life, you start using this weird fucking language, and they're like, why are you talking to this person with Nazi symbols all over, them? you should probably give them a heads up.

Brad 42:19

Angela, you brought up something that's super important too, though, when you came out as a gay person, it's unimaginable what those communities think about us, it reminded me of the time where I was doing a documentary, and the producer, just like, laid it out there, about what was going on in his life, Cause he wanted to make sure that I knew that he was Jewish and his mother still has a bag packed underneath her bed because she's worried about the Nazis that are going to come back. I'm sitting there going, I have to listen to this because I did this. that's part of this thing too, if we're saying, Hey, I'm a former of this, we need to do those things and be composed I remember standing with Tony in a synagogue and thanked me for being there and I turned around I'm like, thank you

Samantha 43:13

yeah, I've people have done that with me too. And I always just want to be like, shut the fuck up. in the best, most loving, I don't deserve this way

Brad 43:21

it's just the compassion that exists in those communities It's, unimaginable. we never took one moment back in the day to think about that, about what are these communities really about? You know, go there and talk to the people. And then when you do, you find out, Holy shit, these are nice people. they're, wonderful people that care for everyone, including the worst of the worst. they have a spot in their heart too, for those people. And it's kind of like, what do we miss?

Angela 43:48

You nailed it, like, it is like a punch in the gut, I've done a lot of work with holocaust survivors, and I got done, doing a presentation, and I always, would zip right out, and the survivor stood up and grabbed my arm and hugged me and told me I was his hero, and I was like, no, you're my hero, like, it, it's such a, like, weird feeling to explain but it's like a punch in the gut because I'm not doing this to be such a good person I'm doing this because I feel like this is what I need to do so it's almost selfish and then to hear something like that it's a gut punch

Samantha 44:30

yeah. you ever get to relax and just be a normal human being?

Lauren 44:36

I actually got to that point about A couple years ago, I guess, and actually, I got a funny story to go along with this. a couple months ago, I was heading down to my mom's house to meet up with her, and then we were going to travel to this conference the next day. So, who do I see on the road on the way there is one of my former affiliates, and of course, I can tell that the bastard's still in. and honestly, I knew it was him because I recognized the license plate on the truck. So I'm like, you know what, I feel like the universe is putting this opportunity in front of me right now, so I'm gonna go take it. So I may have pulled up beside him and chirped him, and shocked the living hell out of him. And you know what, he didn't do anything sit there at the light, completely shocked.

Samantha 45:19

I think that's a good example of what we've mentioned. there was a lot of tough talk, but there's not a whole lot of actually doing the things.

Lauren 45:27

Yeah, and you know, anytime I've ever got a message or anything, even the time that I was doxxed on Stormfront, all of it looks like intimidation tactics with, no actual action behind it.

Angela 45:39

But also, talking about ever getting to fully relax I don't know that I ever will, but that's because I continue to be open to people that are like us and getting to know others and that initial trust is difficult. Like I've talked a lot to you all about my roommates and these are individuals that were also involved for a long time and they got out. but even being who we were, we showed up with that nervousness of like, Oh my God, how's this going to go with this other person that used to do these things that I know I used to do. And it's been such an amazing. Enriching learning experience to be able to talk to others, even outside of life after hate or the formers that we've known, for a while, but just for me, I don't think it'll ever be 100%. That I'll just completely forget who I am, my past, what I do, and be like, Oh, yay, I worry about nothing. That's just not my personality in general,

Samantha 46:48

As time goes on, my anxiety and paranoia has definitely shifted into different things. And I agree, like, I don't think it's ever going to be 100 percent gone, but I do find it a lot easier now, to go out in public, to talk to people about this. I had actually met Some of my friends on winter break and they had asked what I did for work and, I did not tell them that I bartended. I told them about this and they had asked, how I got into this field and, you know, I did the like, funny story Once you start taking ownership of it trust in yourself and other people is doing the right thing, plus time. It is just consistency of doing the best thing for you. And I am in a place where like, sure, sometimes if I know that there's someone in the far right that lives near somewhere that I'm traveling or whatever, I get a little weird, but you find what you're looking for. And I found that life is really cool and really worth living. And there are assholes everywhere, whether they're Nazis or not. So there's really no point in Reserving all of your anxiety for them, Bradford Bradley,

Brad 48:01

did you just call me Bradford?

Samantha 48:03

I don't, yeah, I don't know who knows what I say. Things just come out of this.

Brad 48:07

I mean, Bradford's good.

Samantha 48:09

Brad, can you relax?

Brad 48:12

short answer is No, because if I said that on recording my wife would be like, you don't relax. That is a lie of the greatest proportion.

Angela 48:24

That's what I'm saying. Like, I couldn't relax, but not just about the former movement stuff. there's additional layers that come with adulting thing.

Samantha 48:35

I do not relax generally. I am a try hard. I took yesterday off and still made a bunch of meetings for hours and the whole point of taking the day off was resting my voice. I, I get that. I get the not relaxing thing. I'm saying like, were all of the steps that you took for not, are you still just as fucking paranoid as when you first left the movement?

Brad 48:57

I'm not putting an ad out for violent far right movements, but there's always shit going on. There's always stuff happening. So it kind of keeps your mind going. So I found in this adulting business of having families and pets and jobs and all this kind of stuff. If you're that busy, you're really not thinking about all that other bullshit that was going down. and also it's a pretty like negative place to live in. Obviously, we all know that. So if you're gonna go there, make it at your therapy session or whatever it is, right? it should be reserved for a time that you're okay with the darkness Because I find when that shit seeps in at times where you're just trying to take your dog for a walk It's ruining the shit that you're doing good for yourself. Right? I think a lot of it is rejection for me. It's rejecting that, that it imposes itself on you. why be paranoid? For what? About what? And why? if you're at a hardcore show and you love that music, don't let that, there's probably white supremacists there 100%, but don't let that ruin your time with your shit beer and music, right? if that's your jam, then let it be your jam,

Samantha 50:06

something I had to learn the hard way is worrying about it is not going to stop it from happening. you can in your head have some sort of Plan some like quote unquote getaway plan or whatever, but what's gonna happen is gonna happen if you stand there all day worrying about getting shot to death by some sniper that Nazis hired for you So much so that you can't even go out and get your mail like You've got to work

Angela 50:25

an issue. You know what you said about continuously processing the feelings and actually feeling them and letting them run their course and picking up the tools. that we've learned individually over the years, it lessens it drastically. But I think there's always going to be that little tiny thing in the back of my head, but there's ways to to handle it and mitigate it and make it. So, like, I think Brad said, we run it. It doesn't run us.

Samantha 50:59

no, totally.

Lauren 51:00

for me, I've always just gone by basic precautions when I'm outside, but not to the point where it interferes with the rest of my day.

Samantha 51:07

Yeah.

Angela 51:08

You kind of hit it

Samantha 51:09

that.

Angela 51:10

cause your dad really taught you about situational awareness and being safe. So I think a lot of that you, you like organically had already.

Lauren 51:22

Well, I mean, Dad was a very smart man, definitely. Now, did I always follow his advice perfectly? Absolutely not. We all slip up sometimes. It happens.

Samantha 51:32

I am a wildly aloof head in the clouds person, so bless. we should live closer so you can make sure I cross the street safely.

Angela 51:40

Do you want me to do an outro?

Samantha 51:43

yeah, if you want to,

Angela 51:44

Okay, Ready?

Samantha 51:46

yes.

Angela 51:47

Thanks for listening to our episode today. Actually, let me say roundtable instead. Thanks for listening to our roundtable today. Fuck, I can't do it. Now I've lost my brain. Brad, you do it.

Brad 52:02

you want me to? Okay thanks everyone for listening to our our roundtable today. And would like you to tune in next time because I fucked that one up. Alright, I'm gonna try that again. I'm

Samantha 52:15

This is so sweet, you guys.

Brad 52:18

okay, no. Just give me a second, my dog just came over here and farted and it's, I'm done.

Samantha 52:25

God, I love this.

Brad 52:27

Just give me a second, you're gonna have to delete this part.

Samantha 52:29

I might not,

Brad 52:30

So, what am I saying? I'm saying, thanks for listening. And I'm saying you can listen to this on Spotify. Is that it?

Samantha 52:41

hold on, I'm typing it right now.

Brad 52:44

Okay. I need a script because I'm such an idiot.

Angela 52:48

No. like I can't, I don't know. You know how I get at this time of day. I like crash into that wall and it's just all jumbled. Like, podcast, thank you. Listen to it. Let us know if you have questions. Bye.

Brad 53:04

Oh, our chat is funny. All

Samantha 53:08

it?

Brad 53:09

All right. So, uh,

Lauren 53:11

I can try

Samantha 53:13

Anyone. I don't care. This is

Lauren 53:14

And And we're gonna leave it there for today. Thank you so much for listening. If you had a similar experience, or even a completely different one, please write to us at thedailyformer at lifeafterhate. org. You can hear us on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your sounds. Catch ya later.

Samantha 53:33

Aww. Bye.

Lauren 53:36

Bye!