How to Give Yourself Grace

This episode is about forgiving yourself, owning your past without pre-writing your future, and the reality of what your beliefs cost.


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Transcript

Samantha 0:15

Welcome to the daily former a podcast about how the far right does not need to be the rest or the end of your life today. We're talking about how to give yourself grace, how you can recoup from a bad mental health day and why you don't always need to worry about forgiving yourself. I'm here with Angela, Lauren, Jamie, and Brad. My name is Sam. And a way that I show myself grace is by just laughing it off whenever I need to. Just not taking shit personally, just letting it go.

Angela 0:44

My name is Angela and one way I show myself grace is not chastising myself for making mistakes. Mistakes are lessons learned and if I don't make them, I can't grow.

Lauren 0:57

My name is Lauren. One way I show myself grace is by making fun of everything within reason. I feel like you just can't get through life without humor.

Jamie 1:06

My name is Jamie and the way I show myself, Grace, is acknowledging that I made some mistakes. I'm learning from them and to learn to forgive myself.

Brad 1:15

I'm Brad. the way I show myself, Grace, is Knowing that there's going to be a way forward. we've been through a lot already, so, there's got to be a way to, to get to the next stage.

Samantha 1:26

I love all of these. I think we all can probably relate to it. When did we start showing ourselves? compassion. When you look back on who you used to be and as you've grown how does your view of yourself change over time?

Lauren 1:41

I started learning that around 2017. So just after I had reached out to Life After Hate, after I figured out that it existed I had always thought that, I always had to carry some amount of shame with me. And then my therapist actually, who I was working with even before that, had told me, there is a difference between shame and guilt. one's healthy and obviously one is very self sabotaging. But I kind of wrote it off at the time. It went in one ear and out the other. And then I heard the same thing actually from several other members in Life After Hate. And so I started reading about the whole concept of it, and of course watching Brene Brown videos, since she's like an absolute expert on that topic. And what I had realized is, what healthy guilt can look like is, alright, I'll learn from my mistakes and it won't be done again. But to self sabotage and to punish myself, no, it's not the right way to go about things.

Samantha 2:33

Absolutely. Angela, what were you getting ready to say?

Angela 2:38

don't even remember, but I will second what Lauren said. It really took learning about the difference between shame, which isn't always, but can be exceedingly toxic, and what healthy guilt looks like.

Samantha 2:54

Jamie, Brad, how do you guys look at your past self

Jamie 2:58

Brad and I have talked about this multiple times. We both know we were pieces of shit. That's kind of where we start with.

Samantha 3:04

Really on that grace, that self grace train, I see.

Jamie 3:09

well, at least we recognize that, you know, we were, assholes to people in general for no reason. We shouldn't have acted like that or behaved like that and I think that's a huge step is recognizing where you've come from and why you were like that.

Brad 3:24

and just, you want to go through thought before it's lost again.

Lauren 3:27

I

Angela 3:28

thanks, Brad. What I was thinking was, I did not look at my old self with compassion for many years and it wasn't until I was able to start looking at that troubled young woman in a different way that I was really able to start moving forward with how I view myself now and then.

Brad 3:55

I think I'm going to try not to get too philosophical here, but the way that Jamie was describing our perception of ourselves back then, I used to see myself through the lens of like Cooley's looking glass self thing. Like I was so worried about what others were thinking of me, what image I had of myself and like perpetuating that bad Guy image And that fear that we all put in to others and to the world or whatever. And I think it was when I started saying, well, maybe I should start caring about myself and those people around me that that kind of perception changed. It was like, Who cares? About what Joe Blow over there thinks about me. I'm just a dude going through life, living, you know, just like everybody else. I don't need to manage everyone else's perceptions of me or the image that I feel what I'm supposed to be to them. I'm just gonna be this. And it it sucks at first. Particularly with family, because you come out of that hard shell and now you're kind of just I don't care and they're like, you don't care now it's almost harder for them to deal with than this person who's looking for constant, reaffirmation of like, I am this look at me. But it's like really narcissistic though, to live in that and negative. Right. So I think that also helped me move on is now you have space for others to in your life. Right.

Samantha 5:16

I was thinking about it. In my case, at least I, I didn't realize that I didn't really start to understand myself or show myself grace or any kind of compassion until after I stopped doing media in 2021. Up until I started it, I was so afraid of being doxxed and just, you know, found out outside of my terms. And then when I started doing media, it was like, you know, I need to wear all blacks that they know I'm in mourning. And I need to make sure that I let them know that I also think I'm an asshole and a bad person and this and that. And then when I stopped, I was just kind of like, how am I moving forward? how am I progressing as a person? And we'll get to it in a later conversation, but I, I think we can all agree that if I didn't feel the need to, if I didn't feel like it had to be done, I wouldn't have spoken out. it's not that I regret it, but if I could have done it differently, knowing what I know now, I probably wouldn't have started speaking out when I did. And I might not have even started speaking out at all until TDF was always supposed to happen in every universe. So I think until we started TDF, I probably wouldn't have said anything, but I feel like a theme in all of that is compassion. And I'm guessing with all of that, and especially as one of the tenants of life after hate, we talk about compassionate accountability. Did you taking accountability and ownership of your past help you? And What does accountability look like? What does ownership look like in practical terms? Not just like, oh, you know, I Meditate about it and I understand my past. Like what did you do to actually own who you are?

Lauren 6:52

for me, actually, what comes to mind is when I started getting my tattoo coverups done. it's time to kind of move on from this, both physically and mentally. And that helps with both. I remember actually, the day before I was going to go get it done. Someone had asked me about the Celtic cross tattoo that used to be on my shoulder. And, you know, I, of course, didn't want to talk about it. I said, Oh yeah, I'm getting it covered tomorrow. that seemed to be enough of an answer for the person. So I go and get that done. Eight hours later, we tried to do it all in like one sitting. So for the most part, it worked. And then I went out for dinner afterwards and I had like five people approach me. Oh, that looks new. where'd you get it? It looks nice. I had to go back to the shop and get some business cards and stuff from my artist. Cause I kept having people ask me about that. But the short version is that it does help with your self confidence quite a bit. As far as how that plays into ownership of past for me, I needed to take into account it isn't just me that the tattoo's affected or had a negative effect on. Someone sees that, they get offended or hurt by it. realistically, getting it covered is for everybody.

Angela 7:54

Tattoos can be a really important part of the process. For me though, accountability began within myself being fully transparent with my own self about mistakes, the harm I did, not just to others, but to myself as well. And Thinking about ways I could do better and being accountable was something I could do way better than I had till that point in my life. But I think there's so many themes attached to it. Like, it has to do with self confidence. It has to do with, What you learn in the process about healing and it takes these steps to be able to heal and not just bullshit, like, oh yeah, I'm better, I love myself, you know, but really, when you feel that way, it's a visual, like, you can see that on a person.

Samantha 8:56

absolutely Brad Jamie, did you guys I I can quickly Say stuff for myself to tag on to Angela before you guys go. For myself, it was also not only accepting certain things about that, but also like the, the parts of myself that were just there. The parts where I liked certain parts of being in the movement. Obviously, like I didn't, you know, I didn't like most of it, but I did like feeling special. I did like feeling like I was in an underground group and all that stuff. And I was so lonely that to feel like you had a community in reach of you at all times, I really enjoyed that. And so I had to kind of confront, like, this wasn't just about, and in fact, for most people, it doesn't even start with politics or anything like that. I joined to get. And I really needed to figure that out honestly and not just well, now that I'm out of the movement, I can just move forward and like not be racist anymore. no, like what got me in the movement? So that I can kind of future proof myself. And I think that that was a lot. And then we all know the story. I tallied up all the money I spent in the movement, and I just started spending that money on better and more righteous causes. I started contributing to mutual aid funds in my local town. If there were people that needed help and I could offer it, I did. You know, I did a lot of stuff anonymously because I felt like attaching my name to it, it felt really performative and very like, this person is doing it to repent. for knowing myself and how I am with attention, I needed to do it anonymously and know that I did it without anyone congratulating me without anyone being like, wow, that's so cool. it's not cool. I should have been doing that the whole time. But I didn't. So, all I can do is, is try and do the right thing now.

Lauren 10:44

You know, something else important here, and it kind of echoes what you were just saying, Sam, is doing good stuff because you want to, not because you feel like you have to. Because for me, actually, like, the homelessness issue is one that I've always cared about and I mean, that isn't only just because I used to be homeless myself, although it does do something with your empathy for others, that's for damn sure.

Samantha 11:05

Yeah. Absolutely.

Angela 11:07

It hits a whole different way on that side of it. I've done similar and just knowing within myself what I'm doing makes me feel like a better human and even better that I don't need anyone else's like pat on the head for what I'm doing

Samantha 11:26

Brad or Jamie, do you guys have anything you wanted to add

Brad 11:29

Accountability has been one of my favorite topics to speak with myself about, but also with people that we helped through exit program and the evolved program up in Canada, particularly with folks that are struggling to realize what it sounds like we've all sort of collectively realized about what accountability means in all the different ways, one of the most important things to me was. extremism affects not just you and the people in the communities that you affected. It affects your whole family, your whole, your whole social group. a lot of people that are just around you. So like being accountable and also approachable. people feel like they want to talk about these things, because we all at some point talked publicly about this stuff, whether through academia, whether through public speaking or through media, us being able to talk about our own accountability also helps others understand where they can work on things what things maybe they didn't know about, like, it was super helpful for me to talk with Angela and Tony about, you know, You know, connecting with my own involvement and my own time in those movements so that you can move through the stages of accountability, right? There's a lot of grief though, Sam, like you were saying, some of it is like, shit, I like that social stuff. and it would be a lie to say that you didn't like something not a lot of people talk about that bit when you hear some public formers talking about they're like, everything was so bad. And it's like, was it though?

Samantha 12:53

That's why you stayed?

Brad 12:54

I mean, there were some fun times, right? Like fun was had in real negative ways, But it was about a realization that you could have good times without the bad people. Yeah.

Samantha 13:05

Exactly. Yes.

Brad 13:08

and that's where you can start that accountability, I didn't need to sit in a group of guys in a backyard and bitch and moan about immigrants. Like, I could sit in a classroom and talk to other knowledgeable people about, positive things, rather than, surround yourself with that bullshit.

Samantha 13:23

I mean, you can also sit in a backyard with other people and bitch and moan and they will help you find practical and positive solutions instead of oh, it's the Jews. that doesn't really do anything. it just kind of takes away any sort of agency or ability you have to solve the problems because it's like, well, it's the Jews. it's not you, the Jews didn't make you do this thing. You know, but yeah, I also want to ask you guys a question that I don't know the answer to. And if this is not an appropriate question, please tell me If when you leave the movement and you do like a crime or do something like that and you end up on trial, what is accountability there?

Brad 14:05

Oh boy.

Angela 14:06

You mean like a crime you committed while in the movement?

Samantha 14:12

Yeah. it's kind of a tough question because there are some people that realize they wanted to leave right after this crime was committed, you know, but what if you did commit a crime while you were in the movement or you did something that is just not cool at all. Like, I mean, you know. The whole message of the movement is not cool. But yes, if you committed a crime while you were in the movement, does that automatically mean that accountability is pleading guilty? Does that mean that accountability is writing your friends to the feds? Like what does accountability look like on a legal perspective?

Lauren 14:45

It's hard to say only because I feel like this is a case by case basis, but at the very least, answer to the charges, go to all your court dates, show up on time, be respectful, and the reason why I say be respectful in court is because I've heard several stories of my former affiliates mouthing off at the judge and getting time tacked onto their sentence for that.

Samantha 15:04

Like Why do people think that being an asshole in front of the person who decides if and how long you go to jail, like that doesn't help. Being a dick does not help.

Brad 15:16

that's that energy I was talking about though. like, I care, I have to project this stupid image that everyone thinks I have, like, oh, I'm this badass white supremacist dude that can yell at judges because they're also Jewish or whatever the fuck,

Samantha 15:31

it's that expectation that the movement puts on you to double down of like, oh, well, if someone calls you that it's like you need to do it more, but 99 percent of the time, no one does because they all know in the back of their heads. It's not good.

Brad 15:44

And anyone else recognize the adolescent behavior that continues on into adulthood by people

Angela 15:50

Yes.

Brad 15:51

these movements? it's like having a bunch of teenagers. arguing with each other and trying to jockey for position in this dumbass group and then at the end of it they go into court It wasn't me man. they blame everyone else in the universe except for themselves for doing some dumbass shit I look back on it now and see it. It's very present But while they're yelling at that judge all that's getting you is more time And you look stupider by the moment.

Angela 16:15

Sam,

Samantha 16:16

yes.

Angela 16:17

I have seen over the years multiple cases of formers who brag about crimes they committed and were not accountable for. it is something that has burned my ass because I do not find that to be true accountability. if you want to brag about crimes that you got away with to bolster your own image or whatever, you should be accountable enough to go back and pay for those crimes.

Samantha 16:53

Yeah, yeah. if you're happy enough talking about it in public, you should absolutely reap what you've sown. the only experience I have with it was the Charlottesville case, and that to me was taking accountability. It was, it was the acknowledgement of like, I did participate. in some degree.

Jamie 17:13

Are you still a former at that point? No, like, if you're still bragging about what you did in the past and got away with, are you a former,

Brad 17:20

That is a like huge point. There's a lot of guys that are doing that.

Jamie 17:25

Yeah, like, oh, I was this tough guy and kick the shit of all these people. I never got caught, but I'm a former. Well, You're still got that smirk on your face and you're still fucking happy about it.

Samantha 17:35

yeah, you're saying this all with a wink, buddy.

Jamie 17:37

Are you, are you a former? Have you really, changed in my mind? No, no, not at all.

Brad 17:45

if you circumvented charges and you're sitting there going, haha, you're not a former. You're an active dude. Who's like playing this role. when I hear you talk about the movement and violence, Angela, I can connect with it. the Charlottesville thing, I know, I worked with some folks that experienced Charlottesville as white supremacists and have left, and it was a grueling task just like you, Sam, meddle with that, that, like, I was there, I took part in that shit. That's, that's fucking hard, right? but just talking about ooh, I got away with it. I got away with being at Charlottesville. That's not,

Samantha 18:22

I think that's embarrassing. And I hate to to change it because I think this is a really important conversation for us to have about accountability and what constitutes this, which it is a conversation we will be having a little bit down the road. But this kind of does lead to my next question, which is why is moving forward without confronting the consequences? a bad idea. what are the downsides of just moving forward and just like, not even thinking about it? Just being like, I'm gone. I'm done. That's it. Why should you examine yourself?

Lauren 18:56

I, I can speak a little bit on this. So I had a couple of years in between me, like being fully gone from the group and between actually working through the, the core issues of it, the thing is. It hangs over your head, like, thoughts and feelings and stuff come back to you from those times, and it is pretty crushing at times, like, I even remember several times friggin driving home from work it was an hour drive each way, so it was quite a long time to think to myself, that was not always a good thing eventually it just kind of eats at you.

Samantha 19:29

Yeah. It's just funny you bring that up. I got that job at Target and I would just have my headphones in for a long time. And like, yeah, there were absolutely days where I would literally on my lunch break, crawl under a desk and just hide from the world and just be like, I can't do this right now. there's too much to think about, not enough brain power, not enough emotional maturity. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. It's, it's not enough to just be like, I'm no longer racist. I agree with whatever the center or the conservative or the leftist doctrine is of the day. you absolutely need to future proof yourself.

Lauren 20:05

I think even dealing with that privately in a therapist's office is fine. You don't need to go public like we do.

Samantha 20:11

Yeah. In fact, it's probably smarter to go public. I'm very public and I'm very against going, you know, I contain multitudes. what, what is the difference between self care and showing yourself grace? Is there any? for myself, showing myself grace is sitting there and not forcing myself to do something and just giving myself the grace to sit in the moment and feel whatever I need to, think whatever I need to, and then get up, whereas self care is like an intentional thing that I need to do. And I know that sounds so, like, miniscule and it like almost doesn't matter. But I think self care for us, we consider it to be very selfish. We, we think of taking care of ourselves as this kind of like, well, I'm not of service to someone else, or I don't have time to do this or whatever. But I think as formers, you have to practice self care because you have so many people already against you from the jump. You have to be good to yourself.

Angela 21:09

yeah, I think grace, for me, is part of self care. And they're similar, but I think they're distinct.

Samantha 21:20

just going to delete everything I just said, and I'm going to put that in because I think that's a very eloquent way of putting it. Do you need to get permission from other people to move on? Do you have the right to expect grace from other people?

Lauren 21:33

No, personally, I don't think so. I think for us, grace is only something that we can give ourselves. if someone is willing to be disrespectful towards me for any given reason, I'm not taking it. to me, that is grace, because I know I don't deserve it, all these years later, especially. I

Samantha 21:49

I want to quickly touch back on our relationships episodes. Do we have a right to expect grace from the people that we're dating or people that we're close friends with?

Lauren 21:59

would say if they're going to be that close to us, then yes.

Samantha 22:02

What are things that we do that help us move, on from it? Like, how do we not have the label of former, do we even feel comfortable being called formers? at this point, is there a world where you can move past being a former?

Angela 22:19

I don't mind being called a former, but I don't identify myself as a former. Like, that's not part of my identity today. It was at some point but if somebody was like, who are you? I wouldn't be I'm a former. I would be like, man, I'm a bad ass bitch. you know, I'm I'm able to contribute to the world in meaningful ways. I'm educated. I'm a professional. I'm an aunt. there's so much. else that has nothing to do with the fact that I just happen to be a former while doing it all.

Samantha 22:56

Would you say that's a quality or quantity thing? Is it a matter of years that you've been out that qualifies you to move beyond it? Or is it the quality of work that you do internally?

Angela 23:09

I think it's about the themes that we've been talking about. Accountability, making amends, learning, growing, and all the little things we do in between. Whether it's mentoring someone who is fresh out and is like, holy fucking shit, I don't even know what to do with myself. I don't, I don't quantify it in terms of well, I've been out for this many decades. So certainly I've, graduated out of that. I really believe it's Case by case the amount of work that they've done to feel like they have a solid identity that doesn't include former some of us are so much more than that, while others. are stuck in the former bucket, I think.

Lauren 24:00

That reminds me, actually, of a meme that I had come across recently. It said something to the effect of, Tearing down the old is good, but it's not enough. You also have to work on building the new. let's just say I fully agreed with that one.

Brad 24:12

I kind of came up with this analogy if I'm a skateboarder or a metalhead or a person who likes bocce ball, am I just a bocce, baller or a skateboarder, or am I also other stuff? Or if I'm a former hockey player, am I only a former hockey player, or am I, am I a person who formally played hockey, but also I'm now an academic for us to just say, my whole identity is just that I was a former hockey player or a former extremist or a former gang member or whatever that former thing is, that's really reductionist we are all complicated people and people going through a process of life in whatever that looks like. And I don't think Angela is a former extremist anymore. I think she knows what that is and lived as a former extremist at one point in her life. But It's not the whole identity and you can feel that it's not the whole identity anymore, When people have grappled with their idea like lauren you you were grappled with addiction but you're not just a former alcoholic That's not your whole identity as a person There's many other things that constitute lauren as a person

Lauren 25:17

Yeah, actually, Brad, I've said that before about the addictions realm, too. eventually, there's a point where you can stop calling someone a recovering addict. for the past couple years, I've just told people I'm sober. So I feel like there's a more positive spin we could put on things when it comes to the whole former thing, too.

Brad 25:33

Yeah, I and that's great. And this idea of recovery has been flown around a bunch, But what are we recovering from? Life is going to go on, right? We need to be. Embrace ourselves and, you know, not be just looking at one part of our identity.

Lauren 25:49

For me, actually, I think that was a couple years ago when I started telling people that I didn't feel the need to continually give back anymore, that I was just doing this work because I enjoyed it.

Angela 26:00

Right, and because you genuinely want to do it, not because you feel like you have to do it.

Lauren 26:06

Yeah, and actually, Angela, I remember telling you this during one of our phone conversations years ago. I'm like, listen, I won't do anything unless I want to. So if I'm doing it, it means that I want to.

Angela 26:17

Yes, I remember. Can I bring it Back to something that Jamie mentioned earlier the bit we talked about people bragging about crimes they committed or people they beat up or things like that without being accountable. I feel like those who only have former as an identity are not formers. Like if that's all you have. and there's nothing else that, that you find important enough? are you actually a former? Does that make sense?

Samantha 27:01

I, I want to push back on that only because there was a time in my life where I only had life after hate. I only had the community of people that I was moving forward with. And being a former at least gave me some sort of identity, a sense of self that I could grasp. everything else was so nebulous. So I, I understand exactly what you're saying, but I do think that it is possible for people to go through a point where it's kind of like, I don't know much else, but I know that I'm not that anymore. I am a former. But I feel like you might be talking about something more specific.

Angela 27:41

I was just gonna say, I should make the context clear. I don't think or feel Nor have I seen in any way that that's a bad thing, what you just shared because coming out, we were looking to belong to something for some reason and to have that in a positive way and not in this toxic negative way a true sincere connection type of way with others who have experienced similar or the same to what you did. I think I'm thinking about Individuals who go out and become professional formers, like that's, that's all there is, is this is how many people I beat up. This is the groups I was in, I was in for so long. If we're not hearing about the change that goes into the, the phase or whatever you want to call it between exit and the present. there's a giant chunk missing

Samantha 28:47

Yeah. And also the idea of a former should never be a professional occupation. like I am not at life after hate because I am a form. I mean, yes, that, that is part of it. That is a qualification. It's a qualification, but I don't say I'm a former at life after hate. It's I was an exit specialist. I podcast host. My experience Transcribed as a former, just as a parent can say my experience as a parent. I feel like you guys get what I'm saying, but I'm not, I'm not explaining it correctly. But we can just leave that in the bank right now. But anyway yeah. I know that Lauren, you had said that it, it stopped, What about the rest of you? Do you guys still have this compulsion to make amends, I need to make sure that I'm doing my best to give back, all of that stuff, or have we, do you move past that eventually?

Angela 29:43

for me, it's all kind of wrapped up into a similar concept, you know, the idea of forgiving ourselves. I have forgiven myself for the person I used to be and I take responsibility for the person that I am today. there came a time when I felt like I was finished making overt amends. I sought out people I harmed. I went into communities that I harmed and apologized, took responsibility. But that doesn't mean that there won't be more apologies in my future. I will take whatever opportunity I can to say, I'm sorry. I treated you that way. I'm sorry. I, I did this. It had nothing to do with you. It was me, but I don't feel the responsibility that I used to, to make amends. I feel like I've made a lot of amends. And very similarly to what Lauren said, there was a point in my life where I stayed doing this because I'm passionate about this work. I'm passionate about change. I'm grateful that after my past, I get to contribute to society in meaningful ways and use my powers for good now. That was basically it, but

Samantha 31:13

No, I think that's great. I think there's like a shift, in the middle of it where like, my therapist, shout out at one point we were talking and she was saying I'm not running from my past anymore. I'm running towards my future. And I think that as you make amends and as you start to rebuild your life, I haven't thought about if I've forgiven myself in a very long time. Because I don't think it matters. For me, at least, it doesn't matter anymore. I know that I am doing the best that I can. I help people because I want to. Because I enjoy doing it. sometimes my heart beats a little weird because I remember that I was an asshole and I, I don't want to feel like that again, but I do think there's a shift where it's not like, okay, let me tally this up and I did X many bad things in the movement. I need to do X plus one many good things now that I'm out. The table had turned I will never take back the things that I did while I was in the movement and I'm never going to stand here and say that you know, I've balanced it out now, but I do think I have reached a point where I hope that I am a net positive for society. And now I just want to keep that balance. Like in the black. But yeah does anyone want to add anything before I close this out? Are we feeling good about the conversation about showing ourselves grace? Do we have a favorite self care activity that we do? I

Lauren 32:42

yeah, for me, the favorite activity, skydiving, although, unfortunately, I only get to do it like once a year. But for day to day, actually, it's either meditation or it's reading. I kind of feel like if you're doing something good for yourself, it's not a waste of time at all.

Samantha 32:56

What about you, Angela?

Angela 32:57

I can neither confirm nor deny what my favorite self care activity is. No, I actually have a shit ton of them. Everything from cooking to gardening to family to playing games with my best friend to driving around walking my dogs. I mean, there's so much more that, My eyes see in life now that I am who I am today. I spent so much time taking it all for granted. I don't want to miss any of it today. So it's like all of it's a bonus and, and mostly self care for me now.

Samantha 33:37

Eating Chinese food every day. Jamie, what do you do as, as a self care? Yeah.

Jamie 33:44

I do a lot of reading. I like to go for walks. I don't know what it is about walking, but I've always been a walker. I find it really, really good to clear your head. With music or without just doing stuff like that. the little things that matter. Just like Angela was saying, like cooking. Put joy in that. Find something small that'll make you feel good about yourself, even if it's for 5 minutes. There's still a positive benefit to it mentally

Samantha 34:08

What about you, Brad? Do

Brad 34:09

I'm kind of like Angela. I have like a lot of different things that I do, whether it's Hanging out with the dog or whatever Spending time with the kids. I think it's helpful gives you perspective, I know this sounds odd, but Jamie and I were talking earlier about observing human behavior, observing human beings and what they do for example, we were talking about, American football culture, like, just going to a game and just Watching how people interact there, whether it's with their food, or they're yelling, or their anger, or whatever it is, like, I just find human beings so interesting probably why, I study human behavior and, why people join these groups, or why people do bad stuff, or whatever it is, like, it is thoroughly interesting, and it is, one of my self care activities, Even just sitting in a coffee shop, just watching people walk by and just doing their shit and just being like, okay,

Samantha 35:03

you ever make stories about them?

Brad 35:05

Oh, a hundred percent. Like thinking about like where they might be going. Like I S I saw a guy who's dressed up like a turtle and I'm like, is he going back to the ocean? Like, like what?

Samantha 35:16

He's meeting up with Donatello, bro.

Brad 35:18

Yeah. Like, like, yeah. is he an injured that came to mind? you don't know. So, thinking those things through like, great happiness. In a brain that's mostly full of, you know, at work is extremism and hate and racism and all this stuff. But then like having those moments, sitting at a Starbucks and, thinking about somebody in the corner who's talking to themself or whatever, what could that be about? How was that conversation going?

Angela 35:44

oh my gosh, I make up stories about people in my head all the time. I make up little voices and little pretend conversations and I'm like, oh honey, you know, go get this, go do that.

Lauren 35:57

Heh.

Samantha 35:58

I love it. It's so good. having worked in a restaurant for so long, that was just like part of my job almost I thought about doing like a collection of short stories where I'd like eavesdrop on people and then like create characters and lives around the small bits of conversation. But yeah, those are all really great. I guess the lesson we can all take from that is like, focus on the small things. you don't need to change the world, you don't need to be a hero. The movement told you that, no one else is going to. Thank you guys so much for talking. I really appreciate it. And I will see you next week.

Angela 36:33

see y'all next week.

Jamie 36:35

Thanks, everyone.