How to Think Like A Former

This conversation is about the mindset of a former, overcoming self-hatred, working for George Soros, and what it means to be free.

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Transcript

Samantha 0:11

Welcome to the daily former a podcast about being a former on the daily. In this conversation, we're going to be talking about the mindset of a former, how to stop wearing and start living and how to let go of caring about what your old friends think. My name is Sam. And the first thing I do every day is take a shower, then clock into the George Soros factory of Antifa super soldiers.

Angela 0:29

My name is Angela, and the first thing I do every day is check my secret decoder ring for updates from the larmy, the lesbian army.

Lauren 0:40

name is Lauren, and the first thing I do every morning is shower and then plot how I'm taking over the world.

Brad 0:46

My name is Brad and the first thing I do in the morning is fire up all the different cell phones and get on to all the different platforms and make sure I'm pushing all the different agendas all at once because ADHD.

Samantha 0:58

you know what everyone thinks, or at least everyone in the movement thinks that we do, so fuck it, why not? So really kind of what I want to talk about today is just what it's like on the other side. We talk so much about the struggle and the like process of becoming a former and now that we are formers or we've like transcended past being formers what is it like just kind of being as close to a normal person as we've ever been when you have conversations with normal people that don't have the background is it weird when they're talking about the far right and just violent extremism. Does it pop into your head every time? Are you like, Oh God, I used to be one of them. I need to play this bouncing actor. Are you like, yeah, the ideology is violent.

Lauren 1:42

For me, it depends who I'm around. I tend to keep it vague if I don't really know the people super well. But as far as people that I have known for quite some time who know my history, I always get into the conversations about all the homoerotic shit that I saw there, because everybody loves hearing about that.

Brad 1:57

I think we've spent hours talking about that. Lauren,

Lauren 2:01

But Yeah, we need to, like, write a romantic novel or something about it.

Brad 2:04

we do. We do. Yeah.

Samantha 2:06

Honestly, that would be, are you kidding with me? Are you guys on book talk? Do you know that a gay, two violent extremists, enemies to lovers plot in there would be incredible. Wow. I

Angela 2:20

is funny. Like an Antifa dude and a far right dude, fall in love and live happily ever after.

Samantha 2:27

Yeah. Which like. I would not be surprised if that that has happened.

Angela 2:33

I have this whole picture of like, Mr. and Mrs. Smith type sex where there's lots of things breaking and like, furniture flying and gunshots and,

Samantha 2:42

I mean, yeah, I, I just, I wanted to point that out that like our past is not on our mind all the time, you know, like we talk about it a lot. This is our job. Our job is to talk about this stuff. When I am off the clock, I am somehow even more obnoxious and, and more goofy and silly. And I just feel like it's important that like, us talking about it is because we're trying to Be honest and, expose the bullshittery that's in the movement, it's not because this is, all we have to do, it's like, in all honesty, if none of us worked at Life After Hate, we would still have incredibly full lives. So I just kind of wanted to point that out. When you become a former, do you have to be a super leftist, following the gay agenda? Like, what counts as one then?

Brad 3:37

I love that question because it comes up. All the time,

Angela 3:40

mm hmm.

Brad 3:41

you know, what political ideologies do you need to have to be a former? You don't need to have any specific one. for all we care. You could be a conservative, you could be super left. You could be whatever. you're disengaged from violent extremism from whatever gangs or whatever groups you were in. I've worked with very formers That have different outlooks on life and and some that have none they're just like nope i'm not having any ideology because they felt like that that was what ruined their life having political ideologies of some Sort so they decided now I have zero and i'm gonna move on and i'm gonna like You know, what was the one guy, he said no, I'm just going to have my job in the warehouse and just live out my days You don't have to like, do what we do, you have to work in the area, you don't have to like, consume yourself with more violent extremism. Some of us do it, but sometimes botanist.

Samantha 4:39

yeah, no, I, I totally agree with you. I think. I think it varies from person to person you know, the kind of former that I would hang out with or the kind of friend I would want to have. But ultimately, I think for me, it's, it's a tempering of ideology. You don't have to be like, you demanding that everyone get gay married, you know? Like, you can still have things that you don't understand, every once in a while you can want to knock someone's teeth out, but that doesn't mean that you are begging for genocide. That doesn't mean that, you want to live in an ethnostate where other people don't exist. It's, like, if that's not there, you're not in it anymore, you're disengaging from the ideology. Does that make any sense?

Lauren 5:23

It does, and I was going to say, in terms of behavior, this is actually quite a common thing for people to have violent thoughts. Like, someone pisses you off, yes, it's tempting to knock them the fuck out, but for us, I feel like we're a little bit more mindful of that, like, okay, what are the consequences of doing so?

Brad 5:41

I like your point, Lauren, though, if you're standing in a coffee line and some guy knocks your coffee out of your hand and then like elbows you in the face or something like the things that come to mind for me, not great things. However, I'm also disengaging myself saying I know where I go to. So I'm just not going to do that. That stuff anymore, because it fucks up your life. So I just try to be like, eh, no, okay. You know, hopefully they buy me a coffee, or Whatever you can work out that isn't super violent.

Samantha 6:10

No, absolutely. we're quite literally living life on an individual basis and we're not just hoping for the eradication of an entire people. But when we do talk about that, can you just be like a quote unquote race realist or have your prejudices and be a former? Can you be prejudiced in any way and still be a former?

Brad 6:33

I don't know, because I know some people they really don't like homeless people, or they really don't like the drug addicts that they see down, in certain areas and cities, but do they hate them or do they just hate the way it looks or hate the way it seems? Or, is there more to it So that's where those dialogue situations can happen, where you can ask more questions. Like if someone says something like, hey, you know, fuck those junkies or whatever you say, what do you mean by that? Like, you want to bring violence to these dudes or are you just piss off that the city isn't like helping these people or like, what's the, you know, There's a lot to be done with folks when they're a former because they are trying to work this shit out, right? They are trying to work out Their principles. So, how do we have those conversations in such a way that We're not inspiring them to do violent shit or have more thoughts, but also not saying hey, you're wrong for those thoughts You know, I've had to like, wrestle with certain things, definitely and one of them is and you'll probably relate to this, working around academia, there's some weird fucking hierarchies that go on that are tough to deal with, and you got to tread lightly with how you respond to them, because it can be misconstrued as, maybe you have still have some ideology going But in other cases, there are some super understanding people who work around academia, too So We just have to sort of gauge which populations we're working with

Samantha 7:54

I think that's a really interesting point that you bring up because even within this field, each organization or institution has their own ideas of what counts. We're very lucky to be working in, like, the organization that kind started the whole party and has been Mm hmm. Innovating and kind of giving the language and teaching everyone the vocabulary to describe these things and I think, in terms of life after hate, I'm going to say that we're pretty generous of what counts as a former, you know, we're not asking you to get on the platform and flog yourself, we're not saying that you need to suddenly like, dye your hair blue and become like, Any, you know, like a fucking ta like a, I don't know, anything. We're kind of just hoping that you just don't want to kill people. You know, for the most part. We have like, obviously, things within that, that we, you know, would love, but we're not asking you to become a leftist or even a moderate. You can be hyper conservative Christian, like, that's, that's fine. We, we don't care. Unless I'm wrong. Angela, how do you feel about that? Do you think that's accurate.

Angela 9:03

think that if we're talking about, do you have to come out and go far left, then no. my thing when I meet other formers, my main question is, you complacent? You know, the, the other question of can someone be a race realist? Can they be prejudiced and still be a former? I agree with the semantics. Like, let's define what we're talking about when we talk about prejudice. If you're saying, can someone still be racist and be a former? I think not. we. Talk a lot about compassion, but with accountability and to me, one of the qualities of a former is that. They are accountable and then I would flip the question on you. Can there be accountability while being prejudice?

Brad 9:57

I love that The accountability piece of like, where we once were and what we once believed, And what led us towards the ideas of violence and all of these things, Were the racist beliefs, were the prejudices, everybody also had their own individual worldviews in those movements, too, right? So it wasn't like everybody believed the same shit. That's why everyone wanted to fight each other all the time in the movement, too, because it was always this, this staircase, this hierarchy of like, who is more Aryan than the rest of the non Aryans below them, right? but it definitely comes down to if you're not accountable for your beliefs, fine, you can be accountable for your violence or the group you're in, and you can disengage, but you've got to be on some trajectory and I can use my, at least. Like the word here for a second. You've got to be on some Deradicalization pathway you've got to be thinking about your belief systems and what they've done to your life And what they've done to other people's lives because they don't just affect you, they've affected other people. And you've got to be accountable for that. You can't be going around being like, I still hate black people. And then also I'm a former, it's like, ah, a former what,

Lauren 11:11

think the best advice I was given was focus on the stuff that I did, but also have boundaries with that too. Like, if something gets too personal, I'm free to say, okay, let's not go there.

Brad 11:22

maybe it's something you haven't worked on yet too. Sometimes that happens. You know, people will ask you a question I remember early on and they're like, So what do you think of religious extremism? were you a part of that? Were you around those people? And I'm like, oh, I don't want to talk about religion with people because this is going to get weird. Really quick and probably even today still it's going to be weird But that's okay because now it's a digestion point of what's acceptable and what is what is not but the whole like fake odinous stuff and in the movement and all that like I wasn't quite like When those questions were being asked, I wasn't quite, finished thinking about how, weird and wrong that all that was because I had all sorts of other stuff that I was dealing with first. But people like to ask questions that end up being very hard to answer for formers too, so I think that's worth noting. Angela, you probably know this better than anyone else. Like, the awkward questions that people choose to ask us that they would never ask anybody else. But of course, Hey, why do you, why did you hate Jews so much?

Samantha 12:24

Which, like, right,

Brad 12:25

the right answer to that? I don't know.

Samantha 12:28

that always brings me, to such a, strange crossroads of, like, we know that for the most part, the academics and researchers that are asking us are doing it because someone has to put out this research I personally don't think there's a way you're going to stop racism or anything like that. There's no cure for that. But, can you inoculate someone? is there a way that you can intervene in the middle of all this stuff? I get that they're trying to do that. But I don't think that a lot of these people realize how invasive and how cruel it could be when they ask, and I think it is our job to, like you said, examine ourselves well enough to know what our limits are and kind of be like, hey, I can't answer that question today, you know? And weirdly enough, I was traveling last week and it was to meet. Some friends and they know that I work for life after hate, but they don't know that I'm a former. And they were asking me about when, I had clients and they were like, you know, that must have bled into your personal life a lot. And I was like, what are you talking about? we don't talk about clients. and they were like, yeah, but you know, I'm sure the clients like hated you or hated other types of people like that must have fortified your self esteem in your normal life Like you must be fine. You must just never care what people think and I had just never thought about it. You know, they were just like, well, do you ever take it personally if a client says they don't like you? well, no, because you're not talking to a rational person, you know, they're, they're going through something. So you want to help them. And they were like, well, do you ever care if your friends don't like you? And I was like, no, cause then they're like, not my friend, I had to kind of sit back and realize that like, this line of work and what we do publicly does bleed into our lives in ways that it doesn't for other people. Our worst secret is public. we have no reason to give a shit about keeping secrets or, or being discreet about anything. We still are, we were trained to be really discreet, but like, we don't have to care. I don't have to care. Nothing I do in my life now is ever going to be as bad as that, so I feel like I have nothing to hide. So when we talk about accountability that is one positive of being public it's all out there now, you know, there's nothing you're going to Google about me or find about me that I haven't talked about at length publicly.

Brad 14:41

It can be good because then you'd just be like, yeah, okay, Here's me, right? But I wonder what those folks who are walking around who left the groups. And they're just, like, in the background somewhere, being people, like, I wonder how life is going sometimes. Is it good?

Samantha 14:58

when we use the term former, when we're talking about ourselves and people like us, I am using it in the sense of you have gone through the process of examining yourself and in my opinion, being a former means that you're no longer at risk of going back. Like, I understand that there's always that point 00001%, but like, there are a lot of things you would have to do to put me in harm before I had even considered. the possibility of having to go back. And by then I'd hopefully be in shock or dead, so it wouldn't even be a concern. But like, when we're talking about formers and the people that aren't public, you know, I don't know. I just have this thing of like being a former. You're just happier. You're at least freer. No matter what, no matter what stage you're in, no matter what part of it you're at, you are so much better off than you are in the movement, you know, you are learning that your life is on your terms and whatever restrictions and, and fear and all that stuff and risk that you think you're in is truly all of your making the movement is more dangerous to you. Then. Any other thing in the world?

Lauren 16:05

that reminds me, sorry, of a conversation I had with someone recently. They're like, weren't you ever worried about, getting jumped or whatever for leaving? And I'm like, I was worried about getting jumped when I was in. So, I mean, I may as well just go.

Angela 16:18

And I was going to say, I have experienced some very. Difficult things in life over the past few decades since I've been out. And at no point was I ever like, Hmm, maybe I should make my life worse and become all those terrible things again. Like, not even a thought.

Samantha 16:40

I think that's, that's exactly it. No matter how bad it gets for you out here, I've never ever thought going back to the movement would somehow improve my life. There's never been a moment where I'm like, well, at least I had X in the movement. I didn't. No matter what safety, no matter what friends you thought you had, it is not better than being out. So I did want to ask you guys that pretty honest question. Are you happy?

Angela 17:09

I am. And grateful.

Lauren 17:11

For me, yes. I was never expecting to live past 25. I'm 33 now, so every year is icing on the cake.

Angela 17:17

Yeah

Brad 17:18

happiness. That comes in waves for me. Because happiness is, a strange, a strange occurrence. Like, I have these different lives, I'm doing the work, I'm doing the parenting thing. I think one of the things that's tough to be happy and I don't know if anyone else has this trouble is like the social life thing people in general are frustrating for me. So it's not that I hate them or I'm like upset. it's just, it's frustrating because we're all so different in so many ways with our personalities that at this stage in my life, mid forties, like, do I really want to spend. A shitload of time trying to figure out what other people are doing. I mean, there's enough shit to do, I guess, in my life. So that's kind of what's contributed to the happiness moving all that shit over and going, yeah, this is, this is what I should focus on. Cause we focus so much in the movement of the idiosyncrasies of the other people that were around in those scenes. now it's just focus on what's good. I don't know if that's your kids or gardening or whatever the hell you do. and those guys that we know are out there that have left maybe that's what they're doing.

Lauren 18:23

Yeah, and I mean, I'm doing similar to you, Brad, minus the parenting. I feel like just as time goes on, I have less and less of a social life. It's just because I invest more time into me now than into everybody else.

Brad 18:35

great.

Angela 18:35

that is exactly it. Like I'm going to bed at nine o'clock at night, bitches. I'm not just hitting the club at that time. and I much enjoy the lifestyle and the happiness that I've created for myself. You know, For most of my life, I wasn't happy. I wasn't satisfied, and I am now. Like, I love who I am. I love what I get to do. I love the people that I've chosen to be in my life. I trust my own decisions. For me, life has changed dramatically in so many ways. From that angry young woman I used to be. in general, but a big piece of my happiness is gratitude. Of fully realizing how close to death I've come so many times, and how destructive and dangerous the majority of my decisions were. Like, I cared so little about myself, and now every day I wake up and I'm like, is this really my life now? Like, I get to live this life and be happy. And it's a great feeling every day.

Brad 19:45

Mm hmm. It's the little wins. They're small wins, right? Did I did I put on the news in the last three months? Not even one time don't even care if people like yeah How can you live without it? I'm like, I'm gonna keep doing it

Angela 19:58

Trust me, that's how I live, is without it.

Samantha 20:01

We all post in the current events slack channel, so we don't have to watch the news. We keep up.

Brad 20:07

I remember I was telling you guys a Little while ago, maybe like a year and a half ago oh my gosh for the first time Someone told me I didn't leave the movement recently enough to be relevant or whatever, and I had this moment of like, oh my God. Like that's amazing. And I remember when I had first left, I was like, am I gonna be out of touch of what they're doing now and what their message is? And it's kind of wild because I know that in 30 years we're all still gonna know exactly what the movement's doing'cause it's all the same thing. It might be You know, the little Apple Vision Pro Nazis now, but it's still all the exact same thing I had to remind myself the other day that it's been seven fucking years since I, it's been almost a decade since I've been out. And I still know exactly what these guys think because there's not an original thought in any of their heads. So yeah, don't worry, you're not going to miss out because you leave, you know, there's no like, Oh, what new and exciting things will the Nazi party have for me today? And it's like the same thing it has since the beginning,

Angela 21:06

You know, When you were just sharing, Sam, it made me think that when we decided to leave the movement, that was saying yes to ourselves,

Samantha 21:17

for the

Angela 21:18

and yes to freedom, and yes to being an individual, yes to making our own way, without blaming everyone else in our path for all the things that didn't go right. And to me, That's one of the biggest yeses, hell yeses I've ever said to myself

Samantha 21:39

I remember I left, I thought I was going to be dead. And then I remember when I started telling people my story, I expected everyone to hate me. And I remember I would cry and cry and write my journal about like, is my karma that happiness? I know exactly what it is and what it will be. Will it always be out of reach? And I have built this life for myself and this community and this family and this incredible existence. Even knowing and expecting and assuming everyone was going to hate me. And there are people that comment, you know, that see documentaries and decide who I am. Which is ironic because the entire documentary is me trying to say, Please do not decide who people are. But that's fine. But yeah, I am so grateful and I'm so happy and I'm so excited every day I got to make the rules and I get to break them if I want and like a net positive person I never thought that would happen. So it's, it's just like a really wild, I don't know. It's pretty cool.

Lauren 22:47

Yeah, I had one of those moments, actually, when I was in Costa Rica last year on vacation. I never even would have thought to come to this place years and years ago. The hell was I thinking?

Samantha 22:57

I, yeah, there have been milestones in my life that even before the movement, I was like, this would never happen to me or I would never do this. I'm not constitutionally capable of certain things. And now I, I did them and every once in a while, I have to stop and do a little checkup or an inventory of myself and be like, who are you even? And then I have to look in the mirror and be like, I am me. I've been me for a little while. And that's so weird. But very cool. I am, I am happy. it's so weird. Right. Cause we all still have that anxiety of Is someone looking for us, even though we all intellectually know that they're not no one is important enough in the movement. still. I might turn my head, and check my back every once in a while, but I am like 99 percent of the time just always looking forward and very excited about what tomorrow is going to bring, But on the opposite side of that, I do want to bring up the guilt and the shame and the self loathing It does still exist every once in a while, something will happen or there'll be a mass shooting or someone that I know doing something or on the national stage. And I kind of cringe and have a sort of like, Oh, I got to stay home today. it's real and it exists and it doesn't just go away one day. Do you guys have any experience with the self loathing portion or You know, how do I not feel like such a fucking schmuck every time?

Angela 24:22

Yes, my self loathing showed up in what behavior I was willing to accept.

Samantha 24:32

Ooh,

Angela 24:33

it also showed up in what I advocated for for myself. And I remember having very deep conversations with Tony, one of our other co founders, and one day his words just finally sank in and it was essentially How do I go out every day and make a difference for others and expect people to accept me and forgive me and love me when I can't do that for myself? And it showed up in ways like when I first started speaking, I did a lot of free work because it was for myself that I was doing these things while helping others. And I didn't feel like I deserved it. Once I received an education and, you know, started to become really familiar with the academic aspects of what we do, I, Still didn't feel like I deserved it. Like, how dare I make a living off who I used to be. And that really changed when I realized. All the things that I had done to make amends. I have had the opportunity to speak with tens of thousands of people around the world, and how could I go in there confidently saying, this is how we need to treat one another? When I couldn't even treat myself with compassion and it took real work. It took purposely working on those things and putting practices into place that would help me move on in a positive way until I finally reached the place of. I've given back way more than I took, way more than was expected, and I feel good about it. I deserve the things I have today, because I've worked really hard for them, and they're not all on the back of, I was a domestic terrorist. Yeah,

Brad 26:51

I add long term accountability to this discussion? It's knowing what you've given back as well, Like, I remember watching Lauren one time doing a talk, I think it was like when you were four, first ones. but people didn't know right at that moment, how much courage and how much it took for you to stand there. when you're able to discuss this in such a way of us knowing the effects of Of all of those things on ourselves and society, you're in a much different place, I think, and, and I think a much more healthy place in the sense of trying to move on, but there are times where I like embrace the guilt or the shame I'm like, Yeah. I should feel guilty about that one though. Like I, I'm not going to say it on this podcast, but there was just a massive thing that happened in my life. I feel guilty about how it impacted other people in my life. and how that is important to know that it's not about me It's about you know The effects of the life that I had will always always follow me I chose to go there and I also chose to leave there But there's going to be some shame like you feel bad

Samantha 28:01

Yeah, and I think, even to add to that, like, I think a lot of formers, it's one extreme or the other, ironically, there's either this, like, nothing was good, I hated it all the time, or you're telling a story of, yeah, and then we, muscled our way into this bar and, beat the shit out of this guy, and it's, like, there were also just quiet parts and human parts that, you know, gave you something at the time when you needed it and denying that and not taking accountability and ownership of those things does make you vulnerable to something else happening again. You have to know every part of it to prevent it from happening again. And also to find a resource that gives you that same feeling. I remember that, I kept saying, like, I, I felt I felt special in the movement. Like, I think everyone feels special in the movement. You feel like you're, you know, a revolutionary or a martyr or a rock star or whatever. A celebrity. And like, I kept thinking I'd never feel like that again. But there are things that I participate in in my life and things that I do for myself that make me feel really good about me. And while it might not be a bunch of internet Nazis asking for my picture or autograph I found more substantial ways to feel really good about who I am. And you have to acknowledge those parts of it too, in order for it to be Real and that's not to say that on day one you're like also by the way I really did like This part of that part it takes time and like brad was saying it ebbs and flows some days You hate it ever happened and and you're miserable and other days you're like man, I wore some really cool dresses to some weirdly seedy parties. Like what do I do? But It's all a part of it. Everyone has made mistakes. Everyone has done something bad and felt good when it happened. We just happened to go a little, a little hard in the paint on that.

Lauren 29:55

Brad, I do remember that speech that you're talking about. It was my first ever one, in this area of work. So, even though I didn't get super emotional up there, the guilt and, the feelings and stuff did show in my choice of words, or at least so I was told. I do remember also something that my old therapist had said, when I would talk about guilt, he would be like, alright, welcome back to humanity. Because I feel like you either really push that aside or didn't really feel much of it before.

Brad 30:24

because there is no guilt You don't feel bad because it's all bad. It's all shit Every day is shit. You wake up. It's shit. You go to bed. It's shit

Samantha 30:33

That's like the exact opposite of the point I was just making. but but I, but you're, But no, but

Brad 30:40

isn't though because i'm looking back on it. But at the time. Oh, no It was the greatest thing to ever happen because you got to get drunk every night

Samantha 30:49

and that's what I was going to say, even when you have fun being in your secret chats or, or quietly flirting with someone or being at a party and, and just getting to do X, Y, or Z, it's all in service of something bad. And that's why it's so hard. To admit that it felt good, even the most benign things in there. Like if you discovered your favorite food while you were in the movement, I know for a fact that it would be really hard for you to eat the first time after you leave because it's associated with that. There are perfumes that I wore that I've really had to like dig deep in and say, can I separate these two? I remember the perfume I was wearing when I did my first in person activism. And whenever I smell it, I think of that time in my life. Can I move past that? And I think maybe that's just something that we will be wrestling with for the rest of our lives. Angela's, hold on, hold on. Angela's been trying to talk for like the past like five minutes.

Angela 31:45

I think that that has to do with the level of guilt And what I was trying to say five minutes ago is I think that the shame is more about Biko. than actually recognizing the long term repercussions of what we did. And that's what I recognize in guilt is acknowledging that was shit. I deserve to feel bad about that, but it's not all about me. It's not like, Oh, woe is me. I did all these terrible things and I'm never going to recover. if there weren't the bad times. Which was pretty often. There's a good chance that we wouldn't all be sitting here.

Samantha 32:28

true.

Lauren 32:30

Sam, actually I found it interesting when you're talking about the perfume thing. I actually got to that point, I want to year or two ago, something like that. So I've actually got a pair of docs now, except they're not straight laced with white laces. I kind of got to the point where I said, you know what? It's more about the behavior, the beliefs, the actions than it ever was about the look. Like the look, isn't the thing that did harm to people.

Samantha 32:52

I still can't wear New Balance sneakers. That was the first thing, the dude who got me into it, got me red, black, and white New Balance sneakers because the owner said they were pro Trump and the far right was like super into Trump at that point. And I still can't. That's like the one thing, whenever I see someone wearing New Balances, I'm like, mm, even though like it's not a thing anymore. It's just like this very subtle little, residual thing that just hasn't gone away.

Angela 33:19

And that's okay, though. That's okay to have those things that you feel uncomfortable with.

Samantha 33:26

there are times of having conversations with people or being in a situation that I don't, you know, I don't like, or I don't enjoy, or I have to listen to someone's opinion and I I know quite a few people that are very conservative and they haven't been exposed to certain diverse opinions or lifestyles and so they are just very quick to be like that ain't right or that's not, the Lord's way or whatever. And sit there and listen to it and try and show them compassion instead of just yelling at it because that's. That's what will drive someone farther into their thoughts. If you just stonewall someone like, you're a fucking idiot. what incentives does that person have to think the way that you do if you're just going to be an asshole to them? Yeah, I don't know. I've just found myself in a lot of uncomfortable situations ideologically and I have to just, you know, it's okay.

Angela 34:13

There are certain songs I hear that have those kind of connections. when I was a much younger asshole, One of the things we used to do is go out to bars, order pictures of shots, and then do karaoke. But we would turn the songs into racist songs. I can't tell you how many renditions of These Boots Were Made For Walkin that I have sang in front of barfuls of people with some really ugly shit. attached to it. I love the song. When I hear it, it immediately reminds me of when I used to do that all the time. I still love the song and I kind of put the responsibility on myself to make a better memory of it.

Samantha 35:04

Yeah. Overriding memories is, is pretty. important and helpful when you're going through all of this stuff. Before we go, Is there anything you guys wanted to bring up or talk about, about this process that you've noticed maybe it would be helpful for a client or a friend or someone that you know, who's leaving

Angela 35:22

It's possible to go all the way from there to here. With sincerity and hard work and a willingness to be open minded.

Lauren 35:32

In terms of making your own rules. Yes, it's scary at first, you're not used to it, but I promise you're going to enjoy that eventually.

Brad 35:40

I think Not judging yourself in the process It's tough to not sit there and go, why isn't this happening quicker? Or why isn't these things happening? Because that happened for them. Don't worry about that. you're going to get there. it's just a matter of the process that you choose. There's a lot of different routes, but yeah, there's four of us right here that have done it.

Angela 35:59

You know, I like that, Brad, and I think it's a great reminder that we know a little more of the inside of the actual process, but I don't think we say it enough for others that it's not linear. It's different for every one of us. It depends on so many different things, and this isn't something that you can really go through comparing yourself to others because Our experiences are vastly different. The things we were socialized into are vastly different in some cases. don't rake yourself over the coals if you've been out two months and you still have thoughts, you know, it can take a lifetime for some of us.

Samantha 36:47

I very much take the mindset of I don't really care why you're leaving. Just leave. And you'll figure out the rest along the way, you know, I, I don't love when I hear that people say that they've left. And then you're like, Oh, that's so interesting. There's a lawsuit coming up. or there's like a, you know, a custody battle or something about like you're trying to get ahead of like, I get it. I don't love that because there's a little bit extra work usually that has to be done in those cases, but you're still out. and that that's really the part that matters. I don't really give a shit about all the rest of it. Just get out. Also want to bring up just because I had noticed it in the server, someone had been talking about following the news. And just how frustrating, the news and current events are, especially, when we're somehow involved in an international conflict, and whether we should be or not, whether we're on the right side, does it matter, blah, blah, blah the far right pays a lot of attention to this stuff because there's really not much going on in the movement other than manufactured problems, you know? no one is advancing the cause, no one is actually creating like a new political party, no one's doing any of those grandiose things that they say they're gonna do, and when you leave, don't worry about it cause you will get sick of it. I'm bored to tears when I read The Far Right's take on something. And it's not because I sought it out, it's because someone sent me something. You will always be in the loop, you will always know what The Far Right's take on something is. Just imagine the worst take, and that's what The Far Right probably thinks of it. but feel like you are suddenly, not politically savvy because you're not involved in the movement. They just use word salad. none of the shit the far right says actually means anything, because no one's actually doing anything. So, like, don't, don't feel like you're suddenly out of the loop because you're not hanging out with a bunch of, neckbeards. you can just take a break, you know? You don't need to, stay up to date on all the politics every day. it's honestly really bad for your spirit the last thing I was going to ask is were there any questions that you wish someone could have answered or advice that you wish you had gotten when you were first leaving?

Lauren 38:58

Maybe for me, feel free to take your time and I'm not sure if that's the pressure I put on myself or the pressure that I thought I felt from everybody else.

Angela 39:07

I think I would have benefited from hearing much earlier in my process that it was okay to have compassion for myself.

Brad 39:16

I don't know if there's one certain thing, but I think The knowledge that you don't have to be that person anymore Because it wasn't just the movement We probably have this in common and the before times before the movement was awful as well So it's kind of like, you know, you could come back around and you can be okay Like you can You can do okay. you know, I just never thought when I first left, like that it was going to work out because nothing ever worked out like anything. Nothing. It was just shit all the time. But like, if someone had said to me you can sludge this through, you can be good. I just never really thought that that was, A possibility.

Angela 39:56

love you, man.

Samantha 39:57

I know,

Brad 39:58

Thank you. That's how that movie goes, right?

Samantha 40:01

Mine was going to be that it's okay. And I guess it's also worth knowing that you'll be able to laugh about it one day. it's not going to consume you forever. And I think we're gonna leave it there. We hope this was helpful and as enjoyable for you to listen to as it was for us to make. Making it to being a former is really tough and it can feel impossible sometimes, but we are here to let you know that it fucking rules and it's worth it. You will get to the other side, you don't have to become a communist unless you want to, and you will be able to laugh again, and we are so excited for when you get there. We have a discord that you can join if you want to talk to other folks that are either gone or are leaving, and we are a project of Life After Hate if you want more substantial support. Take care. Thank you so much for listening and we'll catch you at the next and last episode. Bye y'all.

Angela 40:44

Bye.

Lauren 40:45

Bye.