How to Move On

This discussion is about the term NeverMore, and if one is to be a Former for the rest of their life.

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Transcript

Samantha 0:14

welcome to the last episode of The Daily Former. We have a special guest and a special occasion today. Our CEO Pat is here with us and we're going to introduce a new word to your vocabulary. That word is

Pat 0:24

Nevermore.

Samantha 0:26

I wanted to have this conversation to discuss what it means to us and how we feel about it, why it's important to have the right vocabulary in this field in particular and what the phases are after you leave the movement and if those phases ever stop. So the first thing I want to talk about is a roundabout kind of question, but for everyone, when you were first called a former, how did that make you feel? And Pat, when you first heard it, did it make sense to you? I can start with this and I'll just very quickly I didn't love it. Because the first time I was like, a former what? like, what is that? And then I kind of had to come to terms with the fact that my transition into being a former was every aspect of my life turned over and scrutinized and articulated. I am. Leaving behind my former self and that took a little while for me to accept that. What do you guys think?

Angela 1:20

It was a little different for me because I was in on the ground floor when we first started teasing it and there wasn't really a term that came close to describing the group of us who were speaking out back then. It felt. empowering in a way and almost gave the feeling that I got in the movement when I first joined of being accepted, being a part of something. But it was in a positive way and it, it allowed us To say, yes, we were this, but we're not that anymore. And it's just evolved over the years as it's been used within our space, but by different individuals,

Lauren 2:05

For me, actually, when I first heard the term and was called that, I was pretty apathetic towards it at first, although I did understand what it meant, as in I left my old life behind, working on building a new one. As far as when I started questioning, okay, do I call myself this anymore? I'd say it was a couple years ago where I was at a conference and someone said, what's the proper terminology or whatever? And I'm like, man, I don't know what I call myself anymore.

Samantha 2:31

Yeah, that makes sense. Now, Pat, before I get to you, I want to ask Jamie in particular, because we've, we've talked about it before. Jamie has never really referred to himself as a former. what's your journey with the word,

Jamie 2:44

I came across the term during academic research looking at formers, reading their books and whatnot. I never really applied it to myself because I never really thought of myself as being a former. I had disconnected. 1314 years ago, I had moved on changed my mindset. So I never really thought about being a former or being classified as a former. But then thinking about it. Yes, I am a former. I'm no longer that person. I completely changed. I've left that behind. I still struggle with the term because I don't like to label myself. I just want to be me. I want to be an individual. So I, I understand the concept may be good for some people, but for myself, I'm still debating on whether or not I would classify myself as a form.

Samantha 3:28

I definitely relate to that. And Pat, as someone who was kind of coming into this world without the experience of being an extremist, what were your thoughts on it? Mm-Hmm?

Pat 3:39

Well, I can appreciate where Angela is coming from, and can definitely appreciate as you're looking at one's transition, particularly, decades ago, to finally have something that describes who you are, because you're not who you once were, and you're going to continue to change. I get the value of that. For me, it was one of those things, I feel like it's used more by those who are not themselves former extremists. It's used by the field in order to label folks. And it's used by the field in order to differentiate, to sort of say that those of us over here, we're the professionals. And then there's this pool that's useful to us in terms of research or letting them tell their trauma porn, but they're really not at the same level. And we know that because we're going to keep giving them this label. And I think none of us want to be tagged with the same thing for the rest of our lives and have to walk this earth until the end of days being known for one thing. just as you don't want to be tagged as a champion for VFRE being tagged with the rest of your life as a former has similar baggage.

Jamie 4:42

yeah, you kind of hit on my point there. It's the academic labeling. I have a problem with I think academics have the tendency to label people. They put them in this, this bracket. And that's all they ever will be. And I think that's one of the reasons why I don't like the term, and one of the reasons why I don't want to label myself as that. Because I'm not in that bracket. I am much more than that. I, I can go beyond that.

Angela 5:05

I totally. Get both of you and Jamie, you're right. That's where the terms connotation really started to take a shift was when academics embraced it and it became a box. the meaning of it changed because it was now this box that you were put in and like relegated to. This is all you can be. this is it for you. And that's part of the reason why I've done so much to distance myself from that because I am so much more, I'm a survivor, I'm, a healer, a teacher, I'm a learner. I'm so much more than this little box.

Samantha 5:49

I also found it to, I mean, we're all talking about how minimizing it is and like condescending, at points. I always find it to be so interesting. Like if you're constantly putting us down How can you praise us moving forward if you are constantly reminding us of this thing? And that's the same thing with all the researchers that don't follow up afterwards or don't accept that, they're asking incredibly invasive questions. And I understand that it has to be done, right? someone has to do it. I get that, We need people like us that are willing to talk to the academics, but I always say that like we're not umbrellas we can't just be there on a rainy day when you need us and then fuck off otherwise like we still exist after you're done. So that's, that's really frustrating to me. When we do talk about becoming a former though, I think it was you, Angela, where you had said that, former was the term that you guys came up with for people that speak out against it. Do you need to speak out to be a former?

Angela 6:46

no, and maybe it would help if I shared the original introduction of this term into the space. The way it was first used was to describe those of us going to this summit in Dublin as former extremists, But to differentiate, it was That we were willing to speak up and speak out and renounce our involvement, whether it was publicly or privately, and that we were actively working to counter in this space what we used to be. Academically, I absolutely understand we need to identify and quantify things. And I can see how that fits with the arc of transition, with who we are. But it's been taken out of the academic journals and papers and books and been applied to us in real life. So it's changed a lot over the years. Like when we first did that, it was like 2011 and since then, former has met so many different things. It's been a compliment. It's been an insult. I think that's why I gravitated away from it. And, Nevermore, for me, is not something that I'm going to put behind my name like a degree or anything like that. But it feels good to my soul to know what that expresses about who I am now. And it doesn't carry over as judgmental. It carries over as, This is what you've worked for. This is what you've gone through. And, to be honest, Pat, when you wrote that, it blew me away that someone who was not a former, who was not a subject matter expert in this field, came to us just a few years ago, and by getting to know us, getting to know our stories, our backgrounds, who we are actually as human beings, and what we've transcended, for you to write something like that, I cried when I read it because it hits so deeply And in so many ways that hundreds of other people never even attempted to see that raw human aspect of it. Thank you.

Pat 9:26

I appreciate that, Angela. And, you sort of hit on it in that, one of my big concerns is I think this space wants to strip the humanity out of it. what you all are talking about is, if you are a former member of a violent extremist group, therefore you are a test subject, you are to be poked and prodded, you are to be judged. And that's sort of the extent of your value. I believe words matter. I even struggle when you look in this space and you have individuals who have, were previously active in BFRE and we refer to them as peer advisors when they're working with those who are trying to exit a violent extremist group. We call them peer advisors or peer counselors or peer assistants and those sorts of things. But they're no longer peers with those who are trying to exit a hate group. There's a lot they bring to it. There's a lot of learning they can apply. There are experiences that nobody else can relate to. But you're not a peer. And I think it's the same thing for me with former words matter. When, when you say that to me, I almost hear it as if we're surprised that you're a former. I would have thought you were still active. Wow. You're a former. And it just does such great disrespect to folks who have put in so much work, have taken accountability for their past, have really tried to make amends. And when you keep using the label, it almost sends a signal that we expect you to continue to make those amends each and every day you walk this planet.

Samantha 10:53

A, thank you, and B, don't get me wrong, Having, I hate to use the word transcended, but that's the only one I can think of right now, but having reached that point of where a former is no longer relevant, that doesn't mean that suddenly work is done and we're fine and, and we can wash our hands of it, it's just meant to imply, like, we have done more than what most people would call enough, and that's still not enough and at least for myself, it never will be. something I do also want to drive the point home that like, called a former for the rest of your life implies that you are still at risk. And I've known for a very long time, I, I am not at risk. I know that about myself. I don't care if anyone else believes me. I know that. So to have a term, whether I actively use it or like Angela said, whether I put it on a business card or not, to know that it's there is also something for people exiting to strive for. That you are not always pigeonholed into you used to be a Nazi, you used to be a violent far right person, there is a step after that, which is you're just a person again. you've been a person the whole time, but in the eyes of some people, you do need that distinction. Pat, when you see a nevermore, what would you say are, qualifications What, what counts as one

Pat 12:13

I think it has to be a case by case basis. I think there's no checklist for this. There's no checklist you can go through and You're cured of violent right wing hate. Guess what? You're no longer a former. You're moving on. what you're talking about at the end of the day is you're talking about individuals who are some of the strongest people you're going to come across. Who have confronted some very real demons and have gotten through to the other side and are better for it and, are willing to put in the work to make real change. that's what becomes important. I think, when we look across the board, we look at all of these sorts of things. I mean, we, we tend to celebrate those who have given up alcohol or given up substances. We tend to celebrate those people who have been able to repel their demons, except in this space. I think it's part of the reason why we continue to use the label. And so I think it becomes important to your question, Sam, that we recognize that it's going to be different for different people. and you all know this better than I do, there are going to be individuals who have demonstrated it because they are out there publicly speaking out and having their voice heard and making sure that other people don't follow the same path that they do. There are others who are going to decide they're now going to dedicate themselves to academia because one of the things they realized with all of the researchers they would talk to over the years, they just didn't get us. There are other people that simply decide what this means is at this point, it is a completely new page. I am going to get married. I'm going to have kids. I'm going to just live a normal life. And, my future now instead of organizing is I'm simply going to enjoy a scotch on my deck as I watch the sunset. It's going to be different for everybody. And I think we have to respect that. I think that's the problem with the labels. is that we assume that, again, if you are a former, then you are now beholden to us that you're going to talk to every researcher. you're going to confess your sins at the drop of a hat. you're going to record a documentary because somebody asked you for it. All of the expectations we once had in the field. And I think we need to finally tell people that after being in the movement where they told you everything you needed to do every waking moment of your day. That part of this next step is you are now free to choose whatever friggin path you want. And there is, there is no right answer to it.

Samantha 14:29

Warren, how are, how are you feeling about all of this?

Lauren 14:33

You know what I've been thinking the whole time? It's kind of similar to the world of drug addiction. I actually used to date someone who works in the mental health and addictions field, and frankly, if I have to hear the word recovery again, I'm going to go fucking nuts. Because with the way he used it, it sounded like, okay, regardless of what you do, your head's always going to be in your past in some way. that's kind of how the term former can come across to some folks, and I can totally see why. And I also remember coming across this article saying, we need to stop using the word recovery when it comes to anything. For me, I actually started telling people, I'm sober. Because frankly, it's going to be 12 years this year. It's been a long time. I'm at that point.

Samantha 15:11

Yeah, very similarly. I wouldn't even consider you someone in recovery. It's like you just don't drink, you choose not to drink. That's that's all there is to it No, I, I totally agree. And I think such a sad thing that that we have to do this. That we can't just accept that people contain multitudes no matter what, even if you don't want to accept that like, someone made a bad choice and joined the far right, that there's still nuance in all of that. Angela, what's on your mind about all this?

Angela 15:39

I am enjoying the moment. and grateful for the fact that I have been able to witness this transition in real time and experience the changes that come with it. And. To be a part of continuing to shape what this means, not just for myself, but for others when we first started life after hate, it was with this burning excitement of knowing that there was this handful of us that did it on our own, knowing how difficult it was and that we were able to come together. And, the original thought was to lift other formers up as they went through this process of exit, becoming a former, whatever comes next. And we didn't always get it right, but right now, for me, is this moment of pride, of gratitude, of this is where we get to be today. it's okay for us not to fit in that box. It's okay for us to color outside the lines and be our authentic selves. It's okay if someone identifies as a former. It's okay if they don't, like there's no hard and fast rule on it. I think it is. a transitory term, that people can embrace when they need it and let it go when they don't. But it's more this feeling of satisfaction to see movement and to see that this is not going to stay a stagnant term that there's traction and movement, that there's agreement, that we don't all have to be this thing forever now. I was involved in the violent far right when I was a kid, I'm almost 50 now, I am not a kid anymore. I am not that person anymore. And I haven't been her for a long time.

Samantha 17:38

what is your idea for implementation of this? Is there going to be something that we, as Life After Hate, do to designate this? Or is this just a word that we would encourage the field to pick up?

Angela 17:51

I happen to like the word, but the sentiment behind it. is so much more deeply meaningful. That's what I want the space to take from this. I want the space to understand that we are human beings. We deserve forgiveness. We don't deserve these ridiculous expectations of literally making restitution for society forever for what we did. I am done making restitution. I do this work because I want to, not because I'm obligated, not because I have to because of my past. I do it because it allows me to be my authentic self and to give back in such meaningful ways. And that's the importance of it to me. That's what I really feel that we need to impart into the space is so much more than a word.

Pat 18:55

Yeah, I would completely agree. And I think it's 1 of those things. are we going to change the way society says it's not going to happen right away. The 1st thing we have to do is we have to change it the way we use the term within our own organization. How is it a group like life after hate deals with these issues? How do we make sure that you're not distinguishing between those staff who may quote unquote see themselves as professional versus those who are formers? We need to eliminate that line entirely it can't be part of our thinking. Does that mean that, initiatives where we're working specifically to help the former community that that has to change? I think at some point, maybe, but for now, you use the language that folks are most comfortable with. But, I think the hardest change is going to be changing academic researchers. This is a term they're comfortable. This is what they use. But I have some hope. a little over a year ago. I was having a conversation with a former federal law enforcement officer who had been embedded in violent far right hate groups for decades. This was his life and he testified in multiple trials. He would be pulled out of one group testify against them will be put back into another group. And that was how he spent 20 some years of his life even though this had been his life for almost 25 years. He had never heard the term former was never part of his vocabulary was never part of the vocabulary they used at the FBI. It was a foreign term to him that he was trying to wrap his head around. we tend to get consumed by that, which we touch. And so, I think that, within this space, there's going to be resistance. There are those that like to label. There are those that like to, ascribe roles based on your past, not based on what you're capable of. And I think we have to model that we're not going to stand for that anymore. You look at anything else, you look at social justice, you look at fair housing, you look at education reform, there is nothing more pathetic than essentially having a group of wealthy white people who are telling you what's best for low income people of color. And I think the same is true in this space, no matter how well meaning somebody is. We all have to recognize that those past experiences are essential to the healing and essential to making change. And just because we study this in a textbook, just because we've done research, doesn't mean we know how to enact that change. And that means recognizing, quite frankly, that those who are bringing the experiences that you don't have are probably more valuable to the process than those who share everything in common with you.

Samantha 21:28

Well,

Angela 21:29

What about you, Sam? What are you feeling about this, outside of the host seat?

Samantha 21:36

thank you for asking. Kind of feel similarly to you, Angela, where the fact that Pat or someone who doesn't have this experience these and recognizes that we are capable of moving past, even being a former. Like we will continue to evolve and who knows, maybe in time there's even a word past that, like I don't know that's the thing but as you guys were talking, I also did think it was really telling and really sad in terms of the state of this field that it's been around for how long and only now because Pat has done this, is there a word to recognize that we can move past being formers when all formers talk about is not wanting to only be a former? Like if these academics were really paying attention to us other than for their little dissertations or their white papers or whatever, this would have happened a while ago. I just think that really says something about Pat and his compassion and this field and how much needs to be done to actually be as compassionate as and as ethical and as no harm as some of these practitioners and academics claim they want it to be. And when it comes to the word itself, I'm, I'm, I'm closer to in the boat as Jamie. I've never, labeled my sexuality. I've never labeled my political affiliation. I've never labeled any of it. Sometimes I don't even like that. I have a name, like I've said a million times, hosting a podcast is very weird because being perceived as very hard for me sometimes. So, I am still working through it, but Beyond the fact that there's a label, I think it's useful to know that, like, Angela, this must be a huge relief to know that, you have fucking leveled up after how many years of being stuck in this one category. You finally get to like officially take this step up when you've done it so long ago, but it took Pat recognizing this. Like I just cannot emphasize how frustrating it is that this field that wants to do good by people and wants to help is actually just an industry where people want to get grant money

Angela 23:50

food for thought is that, unfortunately for some, they don't have an identity, and former becomes their whole identity. When they exit, they are domestic terrorists or violent extremists. There's, a host of things to call them. We see through the work that we do that there is recidivism, people go back and forth. It's not unusual to see people hop from one ideology to another. And I think it's really important to remember that just because somebody decides to come out doesn't mean there aren't still those spaces that need to be filled in them or addressing what their original needs were that drove them into the far right. If you have done nothing but be involved in the far right for your life, you come out and we know you lose your social circle. You have to remap your whole identity. Former sometimes is helpful for people because it gives them an identity again. But then we run into these problems of professional formers and There's a, a whole can of worms to be unloaded just in that, but I really think it's going to help us define, like, really has put in the work on themselves. To me, that's the most important thing, and it doesn't all have to be the same work. You took a different path than I did, Lauren and Jamie, we all took different paths to get here. But there's no doubt that we have all put substantial work in on ourselves before we got here, and that we're still willing to put that work in every day. We need to have a way to identify and quantify where people are at, but it shouldn't be a label outside of that. It shouldn't be a label that's applied to an individual in their entirety.

Samantha 25:58

I think I agree with that.

Angela 25:59

You think you agree with me often?

Samantha 26:02

I do. I do often believe you're possibly right.

Angela 26:06

Maybe. Kinda.

Samantha 26:08

Pat, what, what, what brought you to this?

Pat 26:12

actually, it hit me in working with this terrific team at Life After Hate. And getting to understand how people see themselves, how they define themselves, what they see as their positionality. And realizing that you have an incredible number of individuals out there who are helping others get out of these lives of hate that are, going above and beyond and see it as their calling, but don't see it as their responsibility as being a former. And I think that that was really what got me. I think I felt we were doing a disservice because we simply throw the label on it and it's assumed you have to do this sort of work. there is nothing about successfully disengaging. that requires you to serve any sort of penance. you don't have to give the self flagellation tour. You don't have to talk to everybody who asks. You don't have to volunteer your time or work with individuals who are seeking help and are seeking some sort of understanding. And it's just, to me, I think it showed a lack of respect. Because it's everything you all have identified you're throwing a label onto somebody because it is easier, therefore, to understand. I felt that that was disrespectful. I thought that it didn't respect the contributions that individuals are making to the space. It doesn't respect the hard work that they're doing. It doesn't respect the hard work that they've done to get where they are. And I think, as Lauren had said, you don't spend decades introducing somebody and saying this is. My former alcoholic friend when they haven't touched a drop in 20 years but I felt that's what we were doing. And, particularly in an organization like ours, where so much of it is helping individuals disengage and reenter society. How do you do that when you yourself are constantly being reminded of where you were, not where you are? it felt like it was a yoke that nobody should have to wear.

Samantha 28:07

No, absolutely. I, have you gotten any feedback from it? Has anyone said anything yet?

Pat 28:16

I have. It's amazing. it's gotten some good response from the research community, which surprised me. More so from the research community outside of the United States where, and I realized for them that this space is more mature. They've been doing it longer than we have. we're still relatively new to this game, not to the game of hate, but we're still relatively new to the research of it. And I think that, when, when we write something like this, it, Can be seen by researchers and by those who view themselves based on their academic pedigree as a threat to their work. If you have somebody who's branded him or herself as an expert on formers, and they've worked in this space, and they've counseled X number of individuals who have successfully disengaged. quite frankly, the type of individuals that are constantly talking about deradicalization, which is a concept I don't believe in. It's not our job to tell people what to think. But I think with all of that, you're threatening their livelihood because when you start changing the words that we're using, what hopefully comes with that is you are empowering the people we've been labeling. And you begin to demonstrate that, no, I'm not obligated to hear you. I'm not obligated to have to answer all of your questions. I'm not obligated to fit in this box that you've deemed appropriate for somebody with my abilities and cognitive skills and backgrounds. So it becomes threatening, I

Samantha 29:43

Yeah. I love that. I think that's so great. And I think you bring up a really good point that especially in the American field, I mean, I've said this a million times and it's why, next season for TDF, we're going to be interviewing, formers and nevermores from all different sorts of walks of life, because I think formers more than academics. And now, Pat, I guess we can lump you in with the formers in this context that like, you get that this is supposed to be a community, not a competition. and to ask formers to help, quote unquote, de radicalize people, which we as formers also don't really believe in. Like, we, are here telling you the truth and you are only hearing what validates your response and you you can only have that cognitive bias for so long before you are completely out of date and irrelevant. I don't know, I, I, I really can't stress enough how cool it is that we all get to work for a dude that gets us in a way that no one else does. Like that kind of rules. So thank you. But I just, I really hope that it doesn't fall on deaf ears or critical ears, like, again, the fact that there's a word at all to use. The fact that there's another piece of vocabulary to explain this stuff is so important and for it to be dismissed by other people, I think that will be really demonstrative of what your priorities actually are in this field.

Pat 31:07

I hope there's disagreement. I hope there are attacks against this, quite honestly, because if there aren't, it means that nobody cares. If we are having real discussions, if we are talking about whether this is necessary, you're talking about whether this is appropriate, how does one earn the right to no longer be called a former all of that? It means we're making the necessary change. It means we are, we are finally seeing people, not for the cross that they're bearing, but we're seeing them for who they become. And I think if we can have that discussion, then we're going to be in a much better place because right now there are far too many people. That are willing to tar everybody with the same brush. I know that there are people who get very angry when I will have discussions in public and I use a phrase that, rubs a lot of people, including some within our organization, the wrong way we've reached this stage where, it's hard to separate the ideology from the politics. And so it becomes very easy for us just to label people. we're sitting here talking about the violent far right. We assume we're talking about a political statement. We're not. And I'm often quick with my tongue to say, it's sad that we live in a country where we can't distinguish between those who wear red baseball caps and those who wear white hoods, but that's what it is. And I'd rather have a debate over whether we're talking about baseball caps or hoods. let's make sure that we are seeing these people for the human beings, the flawed human beings that we all are.

Samantha 32:36

We really mean it at Life After Hate this is not about politics, this is not about which animal represents you on your fucking bumper sticker, there is a certain threshold, a requirement that you meet that does this, and it does transcend Who you vote for well, I mean, that's part of it, I'm sure, but it's, it's so much more than that. And it is really frustrating. And also really telling that certain parties will attack us because they feel threatened. that's not an us problem. Like we're not attacking you. So maybe look under your shoes. But. Pat, let me, let me ask you a really important question. What were the other terms you were thinking of other than Nevermore?

Pat 33:19

I have to be honest, I struggled with it. for those that help me come to where we landed. The entire essay was written with a placeholder for that term. And I think that becomes the challenge. I mean, when you're trying to take away existing vocabulary or trying to introduce new ones you worry about what the word is and, I remember, going through and looking up, all sorts of synonyms for former and what derivative of this could we use and what being used in the space and all of those sorts of things. And it was a matter of realizing, I was thinking a little too hard about it. And it was, reflecting and literally took it from Edgar Allan Poe is, realizing when you, when you look at somebody with his background and all that he went through and, a fascinating person who essentially died trying to vote if you ever look at the stories, but realizing that when you get at the Raven, there was so much in the Raven that, Relates to these issues that we're dealing with and the struggles that people have that it, seemed appropriate. So I used it until we didn't have a better term and it seems to have stuck with those folks that reviewed it and and they agreed that it was an appropriate term for now.

Samantha 34:34

No, I think it's great. I know we're getting close to wrapping up, but I do also want to, shout out our homie Brad, because he has spent so much of his career trying to talk about this. And a person's ability to transcend this label. I'm really bummed that he couldn't make it. I'm so glad that he is just hopefully having a cocktail sitting somewhere in a lounge chair, but I'm very happy for Brad in so many ways If you look up Brad Galloway and so many pieces he's written about formers in this space, are they valuable to CE? Do they deserve to be professionals? is there an apology that we give to people? Like, just, he's done so much work on this that I'm sure this was really, really Good for him to, see this and to see that, our boss, a person who doesn't have this experience, understands it and sees it.

Pat 35:23

it has been a truly enjoyable process working with Brad and talking throughout these issues and, and really coming to a lot of the, conclusions I came was just because of the give and take that he and I have had over a long period of time on this. And I can tell you the work isn't done, just as, you all, Jamie, you've, you've been talking about the struggle with research and those sorts of things. 1 of the things that Brad and I envision is, there's going to be a white paper out of this. There's going to be something that has to be developed for the academic community. if we're going to make this sort of change, and we're going to recognize people for who they are. We need to say it in the ways that each audience understands and. I wish that an academic could listen to a podcast and change their behaviors like normal people, but that's not the way it tends to work. So it means we're going to have to go the academic route and, we'll have the white paper with the footnotes and all of that to give it the legitimacy that that audience needs.

Samantha 36:15

Are there any closing thoughts that we wanted to add or anything that we wanted to say or questions we want to pose or bring up now before we kind of close out the conversation?

Angela 36:25

I can't think of anything more.

Samantha 36:29

I know I feel like I kept trying to find things to disagree about and be like well what about this and it's like I don't have anything because I'm like this is actually really cool so I don't want to like spoil this with being a brat.

Angela 36:40

your job, Sam.

Samantha 36:42

I know. I know. I love it. My job is being a brat. All right. And that's a wrap, ladies and germs. This season has hopefully been a helpful guide in practical and difficult matters, a support when you needed it and, or a conversation between friends that you felt a part of. We're going to take a little break, but in that meantime, you're going to have a discord. You can join a website. You can check out that we will be updating writing on and social media that you can DM us on. If you want to tell your story with your voice, or even write it out, with or without your name, get in touch with us at thedailyformeratlifeafterhate. org, or shoot us a DM on social and we can get you in our Discord server. Thank you so much for listening and we'll talk to you soon. Bye y'all.